Test drove an A6 LLT today (May 8, 2009)

It was threatening rain today, but the sun was out when I left for town, so I drove the 30th. After my meeting, I went my my local (home town, not work town) dealer, Battlefield Chevrolet.

They had a black 1LT A6 car with bluetooth and a sunroof. I pulled in an walked around the car a bit. The salesman came out and was a very polite and non-pushy fellow. After a brief discussion, I let him know that I wanted to buy a '10 Camaro, but I was not buying today. He and I discussed the car a bit more and when I asked if I could drive it he immediately said "Sure, let me get a key." When he brought it out he did not know what to do with the key fob, and said "Here, you probably can figure this out quicker than me". While he was getting a plate, I fired up the car. I had heard the V6 last weekend at Radley, but there was no chance to drive then. After he put the plate on, he asked my if I wanted to go alone or have him ride. I said I was fine alone if he was OK with it, so away I went.

I drove about 3 miles on four-lane open road to a back road I know. That was about four miles of rolling rural curves. Halfway through that, the low-fuel indicator came on:( Should have checked on departure, but I was trying to take in all the operator features before I took off and missed the doggone fuel gauge:) Anyway, the ride was short but fairly telling. I think I want a V8 car.

When I hit it down the four-lane it scooted OK, but not like my A4 LT1. Shifting of the slushbox was just that, slushy. I didn't turn off Stabilitrack, and I wonder if that would firm up the shifts. I tried the paddles, but I need practice with them to be comfortable. In any event, before I totally write off the LLT, I'll try an M6. The other matter for me was, the LT1 I had just gotten out of sounded so much better to me. I guess I'm an old fart who loved a throaty V8. The V6 was just too darn quiet for me. No visceral feedback.

The car rode and drove super nice. The cloth seats were very comfortable -- nicer than my 2LT Avalanche (which are leather). The cabin will take some getting used to. It's a lot like driving the 30th with the top up (pretty claustrophobic). I'm sure that would go away with some real seat time.

The factory (non-Boston) was pretty weak. Of course, it was waaaaay better then the Delco POS in the 30th:) I'd say the Boston radio (I heard this in the 2LT RS car last weekend) is a must-have for a daily driver car. Base factory would be fine for the weekend special. Dumb me forgot to bring my iPhone cable to hook up to the USB (it was in the Avalanche). I'll grab it and swing by for a follow-up test in a few days.

Brakes worked fine. Better than the LT1 30th with stock (albeit painted orange) calipers. I showered down on them twice and stops were confident and straight.

I only slightly pushed it through the curves, but it handled them very nicely. The car is VERY smooth riding. Much more so than the 30th, but still hugged the road -- just like a Camaro is expected to. The rural curves I went though were very rough and rolling. I never felt out of element at all.

I eased back to the lot since the fuel gauge was well below the "E". When I pulled back in, the salesman said it was his first week and he got dinked for letting me take the car out alone. I apologized, for his trouble, but thanked him for his letting me take the car. I made sure he knew it was on fumes.

We went inside and talked some more briefly. I told him exactly what I thought (politely but directly) and he took it gracefully. I told him I was expecting the car to be feel at least as fast as my Z28, but that it did not. I said the A6 was mushy, and that maybe an M6 would work better with the car.

The manager then came over and talked a bit. He was accepting of my statement that I had not decided what car I wanted just yet. I told him I might buy a Camaro sometime this summer and he offered to write up an order for "my dream car" today -- no strings attached. He said that he would be glad to order a reasonable car, he just needed a name associated with it. He predicted it would be here by later July. I told him I honestly was not ready to make a choice yet, but when I was I would give him a call. He asked me what I did for a living, and when I said engineer, he laughed. He said, "I can never sell an engineer on the first call, you guys are too analytical". As I was leaving, the salesman said he'd give me a call when something else came in so I could test drive it. All in all, I don't think you could beat that for customer service. The offer to sell me a car was appropriately made, but when I told them where I was, they adjusted to accommodate me. I was pleased with the way I was treated.

Time will tell if they really do call me back in, but based on today's experience, I think they will. I then hopped in the 30th, which felt like an old friend. When I punched it down the four-lane, leaving, it was just like it should be:) Thankfully, I can be patient to wait for a car I really want and I actually might get to negotiate the price...

hmmm....sounds like you would be happy with a 1LT with an entry level V8.

I test drove a V6 at Hendricks Chevy in Durham NC on May 2 and was very impressed. They had a sign up sheet and they were letting anyone with a license test drive the car at there celebration event. It accelerated very good on the high way and did not feel like a V6 to me. It felt like I was driving a V8 car without all the rumble.

Very nice write-up! I'm glad to see a positive dealer experience. 1LTV8, you're kinda obsessed with that idea.. please don't drag that mess into other threads too. I saw an LS at a local dealership after hours and now i'm dying to hear and feel the V6 car. I don't want to waste a salesman's time though since I don't plan on buying.

hmmm....sounds like you would be happy with a 1LT with an entry level V8.

He missed the acceleration of his lt1. SO with the 5th gens extra weight it would need, oh say about 400hp to give him that feeling. Oh wait it does, GM got it right.

hmmm....sounds like you would be happy with a 1LT with an entry level V8.

:lol:

There is an entry level v8. It is called the LS3.

I thought the boards got this entry level v8 out of it's system like 3 years ago?



Are there option packages to check off for the v6 cars, or does the 1LT cover that? Not sure what GM offers factory in that department. I know the 4th gens could be ordered with the LSD in the v6 cars, as well as some other stuff. SLP did intake and exhaust on those cars as well for a very modest boost in power.

I think he meant "entry level" as in a 1SS and not the optioned out 2SS although for just a bit more I'd still get the RS package with the 1SS.

I just noticed, not very quick I know, that the new engine is a 6.2 liter. That's makes it basically a 383, right? That's pretty cool they went with the bigger 383 size after so long being a 350.

Hal

I think he meant "entry level" as in a 1SS and not the optioned out 2SS although for just a bit more I'd still get the RS package with the 1SS.

I just noticed, not very quick I know, that the new engine is a 6.2 liter. That's makes it basically a 383, right? That's pretty cool they went with the bigger 383 size after so long being a 350.

Hal

6.2L = 376ci

I think he meant "entry level" as in a 1SS and not the optioned out 2SS although for just a bit more I'd still get the RS package with the 1SS.

I just noticed, not very quick I know, that the new engine is a 6.2 liter. That's makes it basically a 383, right? That's pretty cool they went with the bigger 383 size after so long being a 350.

Hal

The LS1 in the C5 Vette and 4th gen f-bodies wasn't a 350. It was 346CID. Bore was 3.898" and stroke was 3.622" The 350s had a 4" bore and a 3.48" stroke.

And he meant an entry level v8 in the 1LT cars. Something reminiscent of the TBI cars in the 80s.

He missed the acceleration of his lt1. SO with the 5th gens extra weight it would need, oh say about 400hp to give him that feeling. Oh wait it does, GM got it right.

If my research is correct, my '97 LT1 convertible weighs about 3600 lbs without me in it. The '10 coupe is around 3800 lbs - correct? My car has an advertised HP of 285 and the '10 V6, as we all know is 304 hp. I find it hard to believe that 200 lbs needs more than 100 HP to be equalized. Supernova1972, what are your thoughts here?

All in all, my point is NOT that I think a 323 cu-in Camaro is needed (sorry ILTV8). It is more in the vein of why didn't the V6 feel stronger, compared to my LT1. My guess (and it would take more than my short test drive to confirm) is that the perception of performance was adversely affected by the relatively slow shifting automatic. I did notice another post where an new SS A6 owner was asking about how to firm up shifting in his car. As more cars hit the streets, we will certainly hear more on this subject.

I am pretty sure 3800lbs is the weight of the v8 car. The v6 is lighter I believe.

And the 5th gen will leave a 4th gen LT1 behind. It will leave a 4th gen LS1 behind as well. I don't understand how this is not obvious to some people.

Stock
4th gen LT1 = 3400lbs, 250whp
5th gen LS3 = 3800lbs, 370whp (according to Texas Speed's dyno)

4th gen LT1 power/weight ratio = 13.6hp/lb
5th gen LS3 power/weight ratio = 10.3hp/lb

The 5th gen will leave the 4th gen.

The 5th gen will leave the 4th gen.

Russ,
You've weighed in late on this thread. We're discussing the perceived performance of the LT1 car vs. the LLT V6 5th-Gen -- not a 5th Gen V8. How about providing similar figures for that comparison?

Sorry, I must not have interpreted correctly. Your first paragraph in your last post, about not believing 100hp would be needed to equalize 200lbs, threw me off a little.

I could venture a guess about the v6 car, but I would rather see some dyno numbers on it first. We could play with the power/weight ratios based on the factory crank values, but that is not the actual power the wheels are using to move the vehicle, and I hesitate to guess how much power is actually lost through the drivetrain. However, that being said, there is a saying I have heard in drag racing that losing 100lbs out of a car is like gaining 10hp. A very loose generalization, but it would put both the LT1 and LLT cars in almost a dead heat matchup.

I am sort of expecting to see similar potential times for the v6 cars as the LT1 cars. There is a caveat though. I am thinking that the better low end on the LT1 will make for a car that is easier to launch, and it more forgiving on a shift that is less than precise. Coming out of the hole well with the v6 car will likely mean being more aggressive with the revs and the clutch. Again, all hypothetical.

...We could play with the power/weight ratios based on the factory crank values, but that is not the actual power the wheels are using to move the vehicle, and I hesitate to guess how much power is actually lost through the drivetrain...

I am not certain of the facts on this at all. When I saw the HP rating for my LT1 car at 285, I thought that was at the rear wheels. I was also figuring that the 304 rating for the new V6 was RWHP. Isn't that the way the factory rates cars now? If not, what is a general baseline guesstimate for my 1997 LT1 and where do you think the LLT will be (RWHP) -- again assuming my understanding was incorrect.

All cars are rated at the crank. By every auto manufacturer on the face of the Earth. No one rates engine power at the wheels. I don't think they ever have.

You could expect your LT1 to put down anywhere from 240-250hp at the wheels.

If my research is correct, my '97 LT1 convertible weighs about 3600 lbs without me in it. The '10 coupe is around 3800 lbs - correct? My car has an advertised HP of 285 and the '10 V6, as we all know is 304 hp. I find it hard to believe that 200 lbs needs more than 100 HP to be equalized. Supernova1972, what are your thoughts here?

All in all, my point is NOT that I think a 323 cu-in Camaro is needed (sorry ILTV8). It is more in the vein of why didn't the V6 feel stronger, compared to my LT1. My guess (and it would take more than my short test drive to confirm) is that the perception of performance was adversely affected by the relatively slow shifting automatic. I did notice another post where an new SS A6 owner was asking about how to firm up shifting in his car. As more cars hit the streets, we will certainly hear more on this subject.

It weighs around 400 pounds more so loosely it would need 40hp9not counting torque, just simplifying) over the base v6 to run with an LT1. I dont know where you get 100hp to be equal. It is already in the mid 14s in the quarter at its weight. So add the v8 weight then subtract the 50 hp from the L99, you get a car not much faster if any than the v6 that doesnt sell because the costs are the same.

And beyond that, the LSx series doesnt in stock form have the low end FEEL of an lt1 anyway. When the 5.3 came out in the trucks in 99(?) everyone thought they where way down on low end torque when actually they made more. Plus retuning a 5.3 to have 350hp would more than likely give it a little less torque.

I think he meant "entry level" as in a 1SS and not the optioned out 2SS although for just a bit more I'd still get the RS package with the 1SS.

Hal

No he wants a 5.3 SS Camaro but wont listen to any logical arguments against it.

It weighs around 400 pounds more so loosely it would need 40hp9not counting torque, just simplifying)

I don't think the v6 car weighs 3800lbs. The v6 doesn't need more torque, what it needs is availability of that torque of a broad powerband. No one in a serious race launches off idles, so I am not too sure how much advantage having a better "low end" would be.

I don't think the v6 car weighs 3800lbs. The v6 doesn't need more torque, what it needs is availability of that torque of a broad powerband. No one in a serious race launches off idles, so I am not too sure how much advantage having a better "low end" would be.

No one who is serious about racing is going to buy a v6 muscle car anyway. But more lowend would give you the quick take off from a light that guys who are looking for a driver quick car like. The feeling of being quick from the start. I mean some people still prefer LT1s all day to and ls1 just for the feel of it.

But to this argument, im not sure what we are arguing about lol. I think the v6 is fine. With a set of gears and light bolt ons, I think mid to high 13s will be achieved easily. The guy is just saying he missed the low end feel of his lt1, and i said that the heavier camaro would need alot more low end to have that feel. Or gears.

No one who is serious about racing is going to buy a v6 muscle car anyway.

I totally agree.

I mean some people still prefer LT1s all day to and ls1 just for the feel of it.


I have never met anyone like this in real life. Only on the net. And I used to be part of a domestic car club. The LT1 bottom end isn't an enormous difference from the LS1. At least, not from my experience, and I have a lot of it.

I have heard 3rd gen owners try to convince people that their L98s have better low end than an LT1. This stuff happens only on the internet.

I totally agree.



I have never met anyone like this in real life. Only on the net. And I used to be part of a domestic car club. The LT1 bottom end isn't an enormous difference from the LS1. At least, not from my experience, and I have a lot of it.

I have heard 3rd gen owners try to convince people that their L98s have better low end than an LT1. This stuff happens only on the internet.

Cough(my sig).....lol

I love LS1s dont get me wrong. Heck I wont say ill take an lt1 over an ls1, but i'm an LT1 guy. I just like them and the price/hp you can get them for now is very attractive. As for the l98's its the same as the lt1, since it falls on its face higher, it kinda tricks you that it feels better. Thats comparing a motor with peak torque at what 3200 compared to 4200? Its all the never acuarate butt dyno.

I have owned 3 lt1 fbods, now my caprice, and have maybe 10 hours seat time in LS1's so i feel I can comment on this too, unlike the guys who bought an LT1 because thats all they can afford and get butthurt when ls1 guys say they are faster:)

Well, there I went and did it -- created another LT1 vs. LS1 thread:)

Here's a couple of things: First, I thought SAE Net HP was measured at the wheels. Isn't that why HP numbers dropped dramatically in the 70's? I really don't know this, but it was my understanding.

Second, I am not necessarily in love with my LT1 (ok, maybe I am:)). With all that has been made about the HP of the LLT car, I was expecting it to move quicker. My current car is the only thing I can reasonably compare it to. The only complaint I registered in my "review" was in the shifting of the A6. Since I am not a professional driver and I had no real test equipment (save the seat of my pants), I think tighter shift points might improve the feel of the V6 car. That would be my first mod, should I buy one.

Well, there I went and did it -- created another LT1 vs. LS1 thread:)

Here's a couple of things: First, I thought SAE Net HP was measured at the wheels. Isn't that why HP numbers dropped dramatically in the 70's? I really don't know this, but it was my understanding.

Second, I am not necessarily in love with my LT1 (ok, maybe I am:)). With all that has been made about the HP of the LLT car, I was expecting it to move quicker. My current car is the only thing I can reasonably compare it to. The only complaint I registered in my "review" was in the shifting of the A6. Since I am not a professional driver and I had no real test equipment (save the seat of my pants), I think tighter shift points might improve the feel of the V6 car. That would be my first mod, should I buy one.

HP numbers are all crank, not at the wheels. A number of factors affected the hp numbers in the 70s, but alot of them where actually performance wise with the switch to unleaded, needing better mpg, and insurance rates. Motors really went downhill after 1970. But then they climbed higher imo in the 90s. Better times, better mpgs.

I think someone else complained about the 16 shifting time. Im sure a tuner could take care of that problem, i'd say GM is just lengthing transmission life by reducing the line pressure some. Kinda like the crappy B7M shift improvers that just raise line pressure really high but the opposite.

HP numbers are all crank, not at the wheels. A number of factors affected the hp numbers in the 70s, but alot of them where actually performance wise with the switch to unleaded, needing better mpg, and insurance rates. Motors really went downhill after 1970. But then they climbed higher imo in the 90s. Better times, better mpgs.

Well, I finally looked it up. Here's some good gouge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#SAE_horsepower

I knew there was a distinct reason HP numbers dropped in the 70's, independent of smog rules, etc. Having gone this far down the rabbit hole, I will say my LT1 'vert seems to have more then 250HP on the ground. I'm going to have to dyno it, if I ever get the chance.

Can you provide more info on the line pressure mod. Why is that bad?

Need to keep in mind that torque is a very important factor in the comparison between the new DI V6 and the LT1. Both engines might make 300 hp at 5500 rpm but the torque curves are probably quite a bit different. Hard to beat the torque of a good old smallblock. Can't wait for someone to buy the V6 car and put an old school drivetrain in it.

4th gen LT1 power/weight ratio = 13.6hp/lb
5th gen LS3 power/weight ratio = 10.3hp/lb

The 5th gen will leave the 4th gen.

Russ, I think you have your figures switched.

Russ, I think you have your figures switched.

3600 lbs / 275 hp = 13.1 lbs/hp ('96 LT1)
3600 lbs / 285 hp = 12.6 lbs/hp ('97 LT1) (My butt-metered comparison)
3950 lbs / 300 hp = 13.2 lbs/hp ('10 LLT)
3950 lbs / 405 hp = 9.75 lbs/hp ('10 L99)
3950 lbs / 425 hp = 9.29 lbs/hp ('10 LS3)

It's a reciprocal calculation to get a number greater than 1.0. Obviously the new transmission is the main reason for the seat-of-the-pants feel. I am anxious to try a manual LLT. First chance I get, I'm on it.

The earlier comment about the torque curve it right on. That's the reason LT1 cars are so much fun to drive:) They make power in the band where the driver can legally enjoy it. For example, my Honda Civic 5-speed is a hoot, but only starting at around 70 mph, ground speed. Below that, it's a bore. The LT1, on the other hand is fun at 35 mph under certain conditions :D