I have major doubts

About GM's plans for Buick.

I just don't see it ever being what they need it to be now.

What I do see is GM investing tons of money into it without the desired result.

Sort of Saturn 2.0

Sort of Saturn 2.0


Which ended up being Oldsmobile 2.0....

I have my doubts too, but Buick has China. Lacrosse and Enclave are American products, but Regal and Astra? are international.

I have my doubts too, but Buick has China. Lacrosse and Enclave are American products, but Regal and Astra? are international.

To clarify, I mean here in our market.

I just don't see it working.:no:

Technically, Olds was Saturn 2.0, then Saturn became Saturn 3.0, so that would make Buick Saturn 4.0.

Beginning with the creation of Saturn to the present, how much cash has GM invested into dead or dying brands? Meanwhile Pontiac withered on the vine...

To clarify, I mean here in our market.

I just don't see it working.:no:

It won't sell the volume that Pontiac did, but it will sell for a higher price per vehicle.

I believe GM will get the product right, marketing it will probably be their problem. That and doing dumb things like hub caps on $20,000+ cars.

I see failure written all over it.

And yes, the creation of Saturn was their biggest mistake ever.

Which ended up being Oldsmobile 2.0....

Making it GM 3.0?

I have no faith in Buick's future either.

At this point:

Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC are the only hope:(

Technically, Olds was Saturn 2.0, then Saturn became Saturn 3.0

How is late 90's Olds Saturn 2.0? Saturn only made 1 car in the 90's, the S series, and it was a small car. Olds had a full lineup with a SUV, minivan, and large cars. Olds was 100% the opposite of Saturn in the 90's. Fast forward to mid 2000's and Saturn picked up were Olds left off. A sporty full lineup priced just above Chevy.

How is late 90's Olds Saturn 2.0? Saturn only made 1 car in the 90's, the S series, and it was a small car. Olds had a full lineup with a SUV, minivan, and large cars. Olds was 100% the opposite of Saturn in the 90's. Fast forward to mid 2000's and Saturn picked up were Olds left off. A sporty full lineup priced just above Chevy.


I was mainly referring to the fact that Olds had some serious cash injected into it and less than a decade later it was done. Guy, Charlie and others have talked about the investment that went into Olds in the mid to late 90's. My point was that GM probably wishes they had a do-over for the creation of Saturn, the mid 90's overhaul of Olds, and the overhaul of Saturn over the past 4-5 years. That's not to say that some good cars didn't come out of that time though.

I was mainly referring to the fact that Olds had some serious cash injected into it and less than a decade later it was done. Guy, Charlie and others have talked about the investment that went into Olds in the mid to late 90's. My point was that GM probably wishes they had a do-over for the creation of Saturn, the mid 90's overhaul of Olds, and the overhaul of Saturn over the past 4-5 years. That's not to say that some good cars didn't come out of that time though.


Exactly, and my fear is that they are about to do it again with Buick.

Unpleasant pattern.

I don't think GM is investing "tons" of money into Buick. They can't keep selling cars with early 1990s platforms and engines forever, you know.

LaCrosse is already in production in China. Regal/Insignia is already in production in Europe. GM is already committed to EpsilonII world-wide. Seems like a pretty cheap operation to me.

Also, Buick doesn't really need to be "rebranded", so advertising expenses should be much lower than for Olds/Saturn.

Buick could use a smaller car that turns heads and commands a higher sales prices than any thing smaller from GM. Think Mini Cooper, but not that small. A boldly styled Delta II car with the LNF and a 6 speed.

Something styled like this maybe
http://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/Buick_Riviera_concept_car.jpg

I am not sure GMC dealers could survive without cars on the same lot. With no dealers, GMC will die.


Also, Buick's formula will be pretty simple. Rebadged cars (that hopefully look better), that use better materials and better features. Sell them at a premium. I think Buick will be a big key going forward.

It has to be.

But can it?

Will it?

Agreed on GMC.

I don't think GM is investing "tons" of money into Buick. They can't keep selling cars with early 1990s platforms and engines forever, you know.

LaCrosse is already in production in China. Regal/Insignia is already in production in Europe. GM is already committed to EpsilonII world-wide. Seems like a pretty cheap operation to me.

Also, Buick doesn't really need to be "rebranded", so advertising expenses should be much lower than for Olds/Saturn.


Good points. Part of me is just shocked that of all the brands left standing with Chevy and Cadillac is Buick?!

Buick could use a smaller car that turns heads and commands a higher sales prices than any thing smaller from GM. Think Mini Cooper, but not that small. A boldly styled Delta II car with the LNF and a 6 speed.

Something styled like this maybe
http://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/Buick_Riviera_concept_car.jpg

Or put it on SWB EPII. If they wanted to, it could be a rebadge of the Opel GTC concept.


EDIT:
Or, even better. Rebadge this Opel

http://www.autozeitung.de/sites/default/files/imagecache/640x481/images/bildergalerie/2009/01/Opel_Calibra_001_0.jpg

Good points. Part of me is just shocked that of all the brands left standing with Chevy and Cadillac is Buick?!

China.

Bear in mind that the Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership structure is gone... (You guys know that, right?)

The new channels are 1) Chevrolet and 2) Cadillac/Buick/GMC with Buick and GMC being stand alone in the markets that they can.

Doesn't buick have a big demographic problem? As in, no one younger than boomers are buying them? Don't know if it's true, but that's the impression that I get. If it is true, they are going to have to eventually "reposition" Buick somehow to appeal to younger audiences.

Second, lumping Buick and GMC in with Caddy dealers would be bad for Cadillac's image. I can see someone taking in their new $60,000 Caddy in for service and having to wait for them to finish up the '96 Jimmy.

Doesn't buick have a big demographic problem? As in, no one younger than boomers are buying them? Don't know if it's true, but that's the impression that I get. If it is true, they are going to have to eventually "reposition" Buick somehow to appeal to younger audiences.



The Enclave has proved that younger demographics will buy Buick.

It's all a big circle of fail.

Oldsmobile gets an old stodgy image..so they spend money to make it a fresh import fighter starting with the Auroua in 1995. In doing this, they got rid of horizontal speedo's, column shifters, and bach seats with immediatly alienated their older base. After 5 years they loose the stomach for it and announced they were killing Olds in 2000.

By 2004 Olds was dead and they decided to pump money into Saturn. They wanted to move it from a brand built on being friendly and anti GM to a sporty import fighter. The reasoning for this was that Saturn had great dealerships, and that people who bought the cheap early Saturns wanted something to move up to as they got older and wanted more money. Where GM failed is though the new Saturns are great looking cars, they are also clearly GM cars, sold and marketed by GM...which defeats the whole point of the brand in the first place. As soon as the new Saturn hit the market and did not sell GM basically abandoned them rather than keeping at it. Yet another case of changing a brand from it's original place just enought alienate core buyers, while not having the stomach to keep with it till the new demographic starts buying it.

At the same time they dumped money into Saturn they cut Buick to three models because it was "damaged" and could no longer be a stand alone line.

Now here we stand with Pontiac being cut because it is not profitable, Saturn being screwed to hell, and now Buick is supposed to be the fresh import killer? I give the line 5 more years in the US...if GM is here that long.

The Enclave has proved that younger demographics will buy Buick.

The Acadia which is in the same showroom outsells the Enclave 2:1 despite having almost identical prices. Even if the buyer ratio is younger for the Enclave the total sales are note enough to matter. Same with Old's. When they changed the styling, the customer mix turned younger, but sales still slipped to to point it was not a success.

They big key is not who you sell the cars to, but rather how many you sell, and how much you make doing it.

two important things are working in Buick's favor. and maybe a few more. first is the product has finally come full circle. aura and clan were unfinished, not besting key rivals in any key area, aura was essentially a heavily worked over and more refined G6, in turn malibu became a better aura, and now malibu is heralded near the top of its class by key sources. oldsmobile had good product, but the biggest markets, midsize and compact cars, were being served by cars smaller, more efficient, and higher quality cars. alero was a big seller, yet that never saw the chance at a second gen. intrigue was too big to compete well with camry, there was no four cylinder, the mainstream market for midsizers, and it was priced significantly higher than accord/camry. the problem was intrigue and aurora, the two highest priced oldsmobiles, were considered the highest competition for honda/toyota. in my estimation though, olds' failure came as a result of GM's impatience....? lack of vigor?. they cut olds off far far too soon given the results.

on that note, buick's upcoming product is really really good. lacrosse has the best interior quality and design of any GM product under $40,000 perhaps ever. insignia/regal is considered the best midsizer in Europe, relative even to Ford's superb Mondeo. and the astra will seriously be awesome.

the second thing buick has over olds and pontiac is direction and consistency. lacrosse has been lampooned and is considered poor my most internet enthusiasts, but it's actually a decent luxury sedan. it may be really bad at a number of things, say space efficiency being one major flaw, but it's also quite consistently decently luxurious and cruiser-esque. lucerne is also pretty good. the product before it, park ave, regal, lesabre....all had stodgy images but at least had dignity....more than can be said of some pontiac cars. the image for buick to be more rich cars is there, it just needs to be built upon with some truly revelatory design and presentation. i'm beginning to believe a comeback is possible there. they need to make sure to get astra rebadging and marketing right.

China.

That's one reason, but the biggie is that each US Buick sold is far more profitable than a Chevy/Pontiac/Saturn. There's also an argument that having Low/Middle/High brands is better than just Low/High.

I don't know if I'd bet on Buick being around 10 years from now either, but at least GM has a reasonable low-risk plan for the brand in the short term.

Also (on a personal note), judging by my father's golf buddies, the modern 70 year-old set would be a lot more interested in a Regal/Insignia than Buick's traditional product.

Or put it on SWB EPII. If they wanted to, it could be a rebadge of the Opel GTC concept.


EDIT:
Or, even better. Rebadge this Opel

http://www.autozeitung.de/sites/default/files/imagecache/640x481/images/bildergalerie/2009/01/Opel_Calibra_001_0.jpg

That would be good, if I remember correctly it is based on the Delta II platform. Maybe a model that gets 40mpg with the 1.4L Turbo and make another with the 260HP+ 2.0L Turbo LNF and they have a winner. Buick needs a car that people under 35 can get excited about. 17" wheels standard, no 15"s or hub caps.

It's all a big circle of fail.

Oldsmobile gets an old stodgy image..so they spend money to make it a fresh import fighter starting with the Auroua in 1995. In doing this, they got rid of horizontal speedo's, column shifters, and bach seats with immediatly alienated their older base. After 5 years they loose the stomach for it and announced they were killing Olds in 2000.

By 2004 Olds was dead and they decided to pump money into Saturn. They wanted to move it from a brand built on being friendly and anti GM to a sporty import fighter. The reasoning for this was that Saturn had great dealerships, and that people who bought the cheap early Saturns wanted something to move up to as they got older and wanted more money. Where GM failed is though the new Saturns are great looking cars, they are also clearly GM cars, sold and marketed by GM...which defeats the whole point of the brand in the first place. As soon as the new Saturn hit the market and did not sell GM basically abandoned them rather than keeping at it. Yet another case of changing a brand from it's original place just enought alienate core buyers, while not having the stomach to keep with it till the new demographic starts buying it.

At the same time they dumped money into Saturn they cut Buick to three models because it was "damaged" and could no longer be a stand alone line.

Now here we stand with Pontiac being cut because it is not profitable, Saturn being screwed to hell, and now Buick is supposed to be the fresh import killer? I give the line 5 more years in the US...if GM is here that long.


I'm with you.

The Acadia which is in the same showroom outsells the Enclave 2:1 despite having almost identical prices. Even if the buyer ratio is younger for the Enclave the total sales are note enough to matter. Same with Old's. When they changed the styling, the customer mix turned younger, but sales still slipped to to point it was not a success.

They big key is not who you sell the cars to, but rather how many you sell, and how much you make doing it.

Enclave is priced about 10% higher. I think the 10% is worth it just from how quiet it is. It also comes with more standard.

When I was shopping both though, it seems that the Enclaves on the lot more content and less bare bones models. The Acadia could be found in lower end cheaper models.

It is more important to see how much you make rather than how many you sell, and Buick makes money. I do think that having the Acadia on the lots with the Enclave is odd to say the least. Buick could use a small crossover as well, but I am not sure it would work with the GMC Terrain on the same lot. Maybe it would since the Enclave does, I don't know. When Buick has some better cars, like the LaCrosse, new Regal, there will be a big turnaround in image, and hopefully sales and better profits. When Buick gets a small car, it will be great.

I'm with you.

incessant whining won't do you any good. the building blocks are there for a stronger GM to emerge. the former GM always had too many projects that were a lot of work for them, though, if this crisis had never happened, there was potential we could have seen resolutions for many of GM's stated brand concepts. something that's key i think is that pontiac and gto specifically always have a chance of coming back. especially if the closure of pontiac is done under favorable conditions for GM.

I am not sure GMC dealers could survive without cars on the same lot. With no dealers, GMC will die.

I don't think that will happen, but why would they need to sell cars? There are car dealers that don't sell trucks.

Some consideration has to be given to some points that might escape folks who don't consider Buick as a vehicle they would purchase.

What I state next is strictly my own opinion and not that of my employer. It is based on personal observations over the years.

I myself have owned and enjoyed Pontiacs. My sister was a big Pontiac fan before looking to Chevy for her needs. The last vehicle my Mom owned prior to her passing was a Pontiac Grand Prix with the NASCAR rear window treatment.

I'm not ambivalent to Pontiac going away. I do believe I understand some of the reasons. The big reason is, I believe, that it is a condition of the government task force.
PBG was the desired plan after the POG was dropped as the "O" was no longer going to be around.

We can agree that hindsight is 20/20. But I will tell you that big efforts were made to set Pontiac apart from Chevy. Chevrolet is the mainstay brand of GM. Chevy still maintains the reputation as value and dependability. Sloan devised the stepladder notion which was meant to allow folks to upgrade their vehicle as their circumstances and perceptions allowed them to "step up". He called the idea the ladder of success. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac. That was the order. When there was less choice, and more money available to have autonomous GM brands, it worked well. Sloan introduced the notion of restyling at regular intervals. His own version of planned obsolescence, so it were. Ford helped it work because Ford was very rigid about what they offered. It worked.

The flaw with Sloan's approach was that it wasn't a lean manufacturing concept. AT the time, I doubt anyone in business gave such a concept a thought. It wasn't necessary as few are inclined to fix that which isn't broken.

The ladder worked, there was lots of money to go around. Franchise agreements were forged and any potential issues that might arise were not considered. The big issues not considered would be over capacity. Another issue not considered was franchise agreements which strongly favored the dealer owner over the survival ability of GM as a whole.

Dealers who saw a shrinkage of their sales, particularly during the 70's and 80's, demanded the rebrandings. Lean manufacturing was the 800 pound gorilla who took a seat in the room.

As an example, when Pontiac had big success with vehicles that featured cladding in their styling statements, dealers of other GM brands wanted it too. They wanted it loudly.

Bear in mind that the nature of the franchise agreements doesn't preclude this. Dealers considered that their deal was with GM. If GM was perceived to be favoring one brand over another, they didn't view themselves as just a Pontiac, Buick, etc. dealer. They saw themselves as a GM dealer not getting the best chance of getting a profit. I suppose the underlying justification they relied on was that their franchise was based on a mutual benefit basis. IOW, both parties should be working to make a mutual opportunity for profit. In a nutshell? "My sales are off, < whatever other GM brand's > are up, give me what they have or you are screwing me.

So Buick is being discussed now.

Buick is not a brand without a claim on a performance heritage. Buick is not a brand without a quality heritage. Buick is differentiated further from Chevrolet than Pontiac. That's good and bad depending on your personal preferences, but it IS differentiated.

China has opened the door for Buick to get development money. It is the biggest player from GM in a market that could dwarf the North American market. I have very high hopes for Buick. I think there is room for a vehicle line from GM which is between a Chevrolet customer and a Cadillac customer. I don't think theres room for as wide a ladder as Sloan envisioned. I do think there's a three step ladder that can work. I think Buick has a better chance of playing in that role than any other GM brand could.

Damn GM for whatever reason you choose. Give some thought that Cadillac was turned around and in very short order. It was viewed as a shell of it's former self and a joke. Drive a new Camaro and honestlt say GM is cluless, strap into a Z06 or ZR1 and truthfully state GM can't compete with the best, drive a Malibu, etc., etc..

I can look at vehicles GM has and has coming that impress me, that I find desirable and would indenture myself to a loan to have one.

Show me the right Buick and I'd pull the trigger for one. It's still about the product in question and not the perception if you are a true enthusast.

My doubts remain.

Even if Buick creates a performance model (bad idea, I think), and even if it has great lines, and even if it is a RWD coupe, I'm not sure I could get past the Buick styling cues.

I've never liked them.

My doubts remain.

Even if Buick creates a performance model (bad idea, I think), and even if it has great lines, and even if it is a RWD coupe, I'm not sure I could get past the Buick styling cues.

I've never liked them.

You can't win everyone on style. I am not sure there is a single car everyone will agree they like the style of. I like the new LaCrosse, but I think the sweep spear could be better. I think that the port hole notion needs to die as it has become a cheap add on for cars and look hideous on those cars.

Other than that, the car is pretty darn near perfect for me.

If you want my opinion on Pontiac's style right now... I think it is abysmal. Split grilles can look nice, a la BMW. Pontiac butchers it. Fake hood scoops aren't cool... and should be optional. I think the Solstice looks great. I think the G8 looks... ok. The holden version is much better. Everything else looks terrible. G3, G5, G6, (when the Torrent was around). The excitement from Pontiac is lost.

The Acadia has a cheaper entry level, but according to Edmunds the Enclave gets cheaper on the top end. I really don't think there is much difference however between them in final purchase price.

Enclave is priced about 10% higher. I think the 10% is worth it just from how quiet it is. It also comes with more standard.

When I was shopping both though, it seems that the Enclaves on the lot more content and less bare bones models. The Acadia could be found in lower end cheaper models.

It is more important to see how much you make rather than how many you sell, and Buick makes money. I do think that having the Acadia on the lots with the Enclave is odd to say the least. Buick could use a small crossover as well, but I am not sure it would work with the GMC Terrain on the same lot. Maybe it would since the Enclave does, I don't know. When Buick has some better cars, like the LaCrosse, new Regal, there will be a big turnaround in image, and hopefully sales and better profits. When Buick gets a small car, it will be great.

You can't win everyone on style. I am not sure there is a single car everyone will agree they like the style of. I like the new LaCrosse, but I think the sweep spear could be better. I think that the port hole notion needs to die as it has become a cheap add on for cars and look hideous on those cars.

Other than that, the car is pretty darn near perfect for me.

If you want my opinion on Pontiac's style right now... I think it is abysmal. Split grilles can look nice, a la BMW. Pontiac butchers it. Fake hood scoops aren't cool... and should be optional. I think the Solstice looks great. I think the G8 looks... ok. The holden version is much better. Everything else looks terrible. G3, G5, G6, (when the Torrent was around). The excitement from Pontiac is lost.

That they can't win me over is no big deal, but I really doubt they can win over enough people in this market. I just don't see Buick styling cues as "accessible" to very many people.

That they can't win me over is no big deal, but I really doubt they can win over enough people in this market. I just don't see Buick styling cues as "accessible" to very many people.

Hopefully the new LaCrosse proves you wrong for GM's sake. Many people I have spoken to love the way it looks.

The Acadia has a cheaper entry level, but according to Edmunds the Enclave gets cheaper on the top end. I really don't think there is much difference however between them in final purchase price.

When you equip them the same, they are pretty close on price. You are much more likely to find a low optioned Acadia than a low optioned Enclave on lots. The one I went to had 1 Enclave CX on the lot. The rest were CXL's (30+). You could find several lower cost Acadias on the lot, and only a few top end. Pricing them online by option is one thing, what the dealer stocks is completely different.

My doubts remain.

Even if Buick creates a performance model (bad idea, I think), and even if it has great lines, and even if it is a RWD coupe, I'm not sure I could get past the Buick styling cues.

I've never liked them.

Buick GSX, Riviera, GNX. They've produced great performance cars in the past. I'd love to see the G8 rebranded as a Buick GS without non-functional hood scoops. Just give me the Holden front end and call it the GS3600 and GS6000 or GS6200. Or just GS or Grand National (I'm not that hung up on names).

Camino, you seem to be hard to please. When the G8 ST was coming out, you complained that it wasn't coming with a 6 speed manual and thus you weren't going to buy it. So it seems that GM lost 0 sales by canceling Pontiac and the G8 GT, and they'd have lost money going after you and the 6 other people who want a modern El Camino with a V8 and manual.

We can agree that hindsight is 20/20. But I will tell you that big efforts were made to set Pontiac apart from Chevy. Chevrolet is the mainstay brand of GM. Chevy still maintains the reputation as value and dependability. Sloan devised the stepladder notion which was meant to allow folks to upgrade their vehicle as their circumstances and perceptions allowed them to "step up". He called the idea the ladder of success. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac. That was the order. When there was less choice, and more money available to have autonomous GM brands, it worked well. Sloan introduced the notion of restyling at regular intervals. His own version of planned obsolescence, so it were. Ford helped it work because Ford was very rigid about what they offered. It worked.

The flaw with Sloan's approach was that it wasn't a lean manufacturing concept. AT the time, I doubt anyone in business gave such a concept a thought. It wasn't necessary as few are inclined to fix that which isn't broken.

The ladder worked, there was lots of money to go around. Franchise agreements were forged and any potential issues that might arise were not considered. The big issues not considered would be over capacity. Another issue not considered was franchise agreements which strongly favored the dealer owner over the survival ability of GM as a whole.

Dealers who saw a shrinkage of their sales, particularly during the 70's and 80's, demanded the rebrandings. Lean manufacturing was the 800 pound gorilla who took a seat in the room.

As an example, when Pontiac had big success with vehicles that featured cladding in their styling statements, dealers of other GM brands wanted it too. They wanted it loudly.

Bear in mind that the nature of the franchise agreements doesn't preclude this. Dealers considered that their deal was with GM. If GM was perceived to be favoring one brand over another, they didn't view themselves as just a Pontiac, Buick, etc. dealer. They saw themselves as a GM dealer not getting the best chance of getting a profit. I suppose the underlying justification they relied on was that their franchise was based on a mutual benefit basis. IOW, both parties should be working to make a mutual opportunity for profit. In a nutshell? "My sales are off, < whatever other GM brand's > are up, give me what they have or you are screwing me.


I think this part really deserves highlighting. If you look at the G8, G6, Vibe, and Solstice, you can see a coherent strategy to provide unique models for Pontiac. The G3 and G5, as I understand things, were models that the dealer network forced on Pontiac. They weren't part of the strategy.

Back in the heyday of the Sloan ladder (50s), there was really only one mainstream model from each division and then a few variants of that model. The Sloan ladder falls apart when you need four mainstream models at each division. Then you add a bunch of foreign competition, and there's no way to design 16 unique cars (four each for C, P, O, B).

So Pontiac had to share models with Chevy, Toyota, and Holden, with the G6 being the only mainstream model with significant differentiation from cars offered by other brands. But then the budget problems show in that there is only enough money to redesign the Malibu, and the G6 has to soldier on with a minimal mid-life update.

If I'm a member of the autos task force, and I'm doing my duty in trying to take care of the taxpayer's dollars, I can't honestly say I'd come up with a different conclusion. I don't see enough money there to do a proper job of Pontiac, and if the choice is to do it badly or cancel it, I'd choose cancel.

Buick GSX, Riviera, GNX. They've produced great performance cars in the past. I'd love to see the G8 rebranded as a Buick GS without non-functional hood scoops. Just give me the Holden front end and call it the GS3600 and GS6000 or GS6200. Or just GS or Grand National (I'm not that hung up on names).

Camino, you seem to be hard to please. When the G8 ST was coming out, you complained that it wasn't coming with a 6 speed manual and thus you weren't going to buy it. So it seems that GM lost 0 sales by canceling Pontiac and the G8 GT, and they'd have lost money going after you and the 6 other people who want a modern El Camino with a V8 and manual.

I'm well aware of the performance Buicks of the past, but I don't see a new one working with Buick's current direction at all.

As for me being hard to please, I plead guilty. I won't pony up the money for something I'm lukewarm to. It just isn't worth it.

I guess my point is that I'm not someone Buick should be trying to please. Enthusiasts aren't a target market for the brand.

For us it will be Chevy or Cadillac, and that's about it.

On the G8 ST, I still maintain that they would have sold all that they could build (which would have been about 5k per year).

Stopping the G8 ST (or a similar Chevy) was a bonehead move by GM. They could have pitched the V6 variant as a 'fuel-efficient light duty pickup' for tradespeople like fix-it guys. It would have been a unique offering by GM in today's market. I'm hoping they will at least resuscitate it as a Chevy in the near future.

Some consideration has to be given to some points that might escape folks who don't consider Buick as a vehicle they would purchase.

What I state next is strictly my own opinion and not that of my employer. It is based on personal observations over the years.

I myself have owned and enjoyed Pontiacs. My sister was a big Pontiac fan before looking to Chevy for her needs. The last vehicle my Mom owned prior to her passing was a Pontiac Grand Prix with the NASCAR rear window treatment.

I'm not ambivalent to Pontiac going away. I do believe I understand some of the reasons. The big reason is, I believe, that it is a condition of the government task force.
PBG was the desired plan after the POG was dropped as the "O" was no longer going to be around.

We can agree that hindsight is 20/20. But I will tell you that big efforts were made to set Pontiac apart from Chevy. Chevrolet is the mainstay brand of GM. Chevy still maintains the reputation as value and dependability. Sloan devised the stepladder notion which was meant to allow folks to upgrade their vehicle as their circumstances and perceptions allowed them to "step up". He called the idea the ladder of success. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac. That was the order. When there was less choice, and more money available to have autonomous GM brands, it worked well. Sloan introduced the notion of restyling at regular intervals. His own version of planned obsolescence, so it were. Ford helped it work because Ford was very rigid about what they offered. It worked.

The flaw with Sloan's approach was that it wasn't a lean manufacturing concept. AT the time, I doubt anyone in business gave such a concept a thought. It wasn't necessary as few are inclined to fix that which isn't broken.

The ladder worked, there was lots of money to go around. Franchise agreements were forged and any potential issues that might arise were not considered. The big issues not considered would be over capacity. Another issue not considered was franchise agreements which strongly favored the dealer owner over the survival ability of GM as a whole.

Dealers who saw a shrinkage of their sales, particularly during the 70's and 80's, demanded the rebrandings. Lean manufacturing was the 800 pound gorilla who took a seat in the room.

As an example, when Pontiac had big success with vehicles that featured cladding in their styling statements, dealers of other GM brands wanted it too. They wanted it loudly.

Bear in mind that the nature of the franchise agreements doesn't preclude this. Dealers considered that their deal was with GM. If GM was perceived to be favoring one brand over another, they didn't view themselves as just a Pontiac, Buick, etc. dealer. They saw themselves as a GM dealer not getting the best chance of getting a profit. I suppose the underlying justification they relied on was that their franchise was based on a mutual benefit basis. IOW, both parties should be working to make a mutual opportunity for profit. In a nutshell? "My sales are off, < whatever other GM brand's > are up, give me what they have or you are screwing me.

So Buick is being discussed now.

Buick is not a brand without a claim on a performance heritage. Buick is not a brand without a quality heritage. Buick is differentiated further from Chevrolet than Pontiac. That's good and bad depending on your personal preferences, but it IS differentiated.

China has opened the door for Buick to get development money. It is the biggest player from GM in a market that could dwarf the North American market. I have very high hopes for Buick. I think there is room for a vehicle line from GM which is between a Chevrolet customer and a Cadillac customer. I don't think theres room for as wide a ladder as Sloan envisioned. I do think there's a three step ladder that can work. I think Buick has a better chance of playing in that role than any other GM brand could.

Damn GM for whatever reason you choose. Give some thought that Cadillac was turned around and in very short order. It was viewed as a shell of it's former self and a joke. Drive a new Camaro and honestlt say GM is cluless, strap into a Z06 or ZR1 and truthfully state GM can't compete with the best, drive a Malibu, etc., etc..

I can look at vehicles GM has and has coming that impress me, that I find desirable and would indenture myself to a loan to have one.

Show me the right Buick and I'd pull the trigger for one. It's still about the product in question and not the perception if you are a true enthusast.

Amen, and thanks for posting.

I'm hopeful for Buick. In fact, (assuming GM lives on), I see Buick having a bright future.

It's handlers will need to be careful and even diciplined on it's positioning though. Keeping a careful line of delineation with Cadillac. Perhaps Lincoln or Volvo should be it's bullseye for now.

I'm hopeful for Buick. In fact, (assuming GM lives on), I see Buick having a bright future.

It's handlers will need to be careful and even diciplined on it's positioning though. Keeping a careful line of delineation with Cadillac. Perhaps Lincoln or Volvo should be it's bullseye for now.

Absolutely.

At the same time, Cadillac will need to aim higher with non-CTS products.

The task will not be easy at either brand.

Stopping the G8 ST (or a similar Chevy) was a bonehead move by GM. They could have pitched the V6 variant as a 'fuel-efficient light duty pickup' for tradespeople like fix-it guys. It would have been a unique offering by GM in today's market. I'm hoping they will at least resuscitate it as a Chevy in the near future.


Agreed.

But I don't dare even hope at this point.

I'm hopeful for Buick. In fact, (assuming GM lives on), I see Buick having a bright future.

It's handlers will need to be careful and even diciplined on it's positioning though. Keeping a careful line of delineation with Cadillac. Perhaps Lincoln or Volvo should be it's bullseye for now.

And Lexus ES and RX and Hyundai Genesis sedan. They should be able to attack the Acura product line too.

I'd love for Buick to offer a RWD homage to the GS or GN though....

Agreed.

But I don't dare even hope at this point.

I'm hoping for a real El Camino (i.e. with 'El Camino' badges). But given your investment, I think you're wise not to.

I'm really not in the target audience, but you never know.

I'm hoping for a real El Camino (i.e. with 'El Camino' badges). But given your investment, I think you're wise not to.

I'm really not in the target audience, but you never know.

I wouldn't place any bets on anything right now.

If it happens, I will react then.:cool:

If I'm a member of the autos task force, and I'm doing my duty in trying to take care of the taxpayer's dollars, I can't honestly say I'd come up with a different conclusion. I don't see enough money there to do a proper job of Pontiac, and if the choice is to do it badly or cancel it, I'd choose cancel.

Nothing at all wrong with that view.

I differ because I thought there was no harm in the unique Pontiacs being offered at a Buick/Pontiac/GMC showroom.

Now I haven't looked at the figures that would justify that being viable or not. Perhaps there was no way to close the remaining Pontiac standalone dealerships, thus that was a factor. Like I said, I don't know.

Whether the G8 is gone due to it being a non-UAW built vehicle is up to one's point of view. My personally formed suspicion is that it had a LOT to do with it. I am not privy to the auto task force findings, so it's just a personal notion.

What that might have to do with a UTE based model coming here or not is also up to conjecture.

Nothing at all wrong with that view.

I differ because I thought there was no harm in the unique Pontiacs being offered at a Buick/Pontiac/GMC showroom.

Now I haven't looked at the figures that would justify that being viable or not. Perhaps there was no way to close the remaining Pontiac standalone dealerships, thus that was a factor. Like I said, I don't know.

Whether the G8 is gone due to it being a non-UAW built vehicle is up to one's point of view. My personally formed suspicion is that it had a LOT to do with it. I am not privy to the auto task force findings, so it's just a personal notion.

What that might have to do with a UTE based model coming here or not is also up to conjecture.

I would hope that the G8 would be brought back as a Chevy or Buick, if it is profitable. I don't see harm in keeping Pontiac around as a niche, but I think that's sort of the 'looking backward' plan. Looking forward, I think you'd want to focus on the core brands. Maybe a RWD V8 is a way to attract 30-somethings to Buick???

If the analysis shows that importing a Holden isn't going to make money, then, well, too bad for us RWD sedan fans.

Whether the G8 is gone due to it being a non-UAW built vehicle is up to one's point of view. My personally formed suspicion is that it had a LOT to do with it. I am not privy to the auto task force findings, so it's just a personal notion.

I don't know about the UAW, but you bet that G8 being imported had a lot to do with it. Of course the US government questioned why (broke) GMNA is spending sales incentive money in the US to help the bottom-line of the Australian subsidiary. (Especially if there's no real "branding" upside, because Pontiac is already on the way out.)

Also, there's PR value in reducing the total model count. All of GM's documents count 'current' models that have already been discontinued, like Trailblazer. Politically, it seems easier to kill it now and then bring it back later (if the numbers add up).