Wangers on Pontiac:"the hobby has already seperated itself from the modern brand".

For me, this says it all.........


http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6507316/editors-soapbox/jim-wangers-on-the-death-of-pontiac-excitement/index.html


Pontiac’s demise may not seem like a big deal these days. The brand has only two cars worth test-driving, the G8 and Solstice, and either would look fine in a Chevrolet showroom. Back in the 1960s though, Pontiac was third in the marketplace, behind only Chevy and Ford, and was undoubtedly number one in the hearts and minds of teenaged baby boomers. A lot of that had to do with the efforts of ad man Jim Wangers, who shrewdly crafted the brand’s edgy, high-performance image. More importantly, he was a real car guy, and could often be seen at drag strips or prowling Detroit’s Woodward Avenue in a souped up, “Royal Bobcat” GTO.

When GM announced its plans earlier this week to kill the brand by 2010, I gave Wangers a call. Now 83 and still very active in the Pontiac enthusiast community, he had a lot to say about why the brand failed, and pulled no punches when it came to assessing GM’s management - past and present. Excerpts from our conversation are below.




What was your reaction to the news that Pontiac will be closed?



I must confess it did not really surprise me. The whole Pontiac concept, really, their well-earned image of building high performance cars, has been so seriously compromised over the last 30 years that none of this is really a big surprise

People ask me, “When did Pontiac start to go downhill?”

I say, the day the door hit John DeLorean in the ass for the last time. After DeLorean left, the brand was run by one after another of GM’s soldiers.

What was the secret to Pontiac’s success in the 1960s?

The management.

DeLorean was the third of three really quality general managers who really understood the picture, the image Pontiac had created for itself. [The other two were Bunkie Knudsen and Pete Estes].

Who do you blame for the brands demise?

You blame Pontiac. You blame Pontiac and their marketing team.

There were good cars that Pontiac failed to take advantage of. For instance, the early 80s 6000STE. That was a fun car to drive but it needed a better engine.

We put a presentation together for the general manager at the time, Mike Losh, to demand than he get rid of the carbureted 2.8-liter V-6. He never understood, never had an inclination to do it. And every reason that he had was a dollar, which has been what's running GM for 35 years.

One of the worst things that happened was when they came out with the new GTO. It was so badly handled, packaged, and marketed. They changed so many things, they failed to jump on what it really meant to be a GTO

When they failed with that -- that was the end. That really was the beginning of the end. When you bring back your number one nameplate, and it fails, you haven’t got much room to go anywhere else.

Then they had the crazy idea of changing the names.

If there was ever a domestic manufacturer that ever had a really good set of names it was Pontiac – Bonneville, Grand Prix, Trans Am! And then all these little boys in men’s jobs come along, and come up with insanely stupid ‘G’ names.

You’re still very active among Pontiac enthusiasts. How do you think the community will proceed now that the brand is dead?

I would say that the hobby may just thrive over it.

Pontiac badly mishandled the promotion on the new GTO. They ignored the committed the Pontiac enthusiast, and as a result, the hobby has already pretty much separated itself from the modern brand.

And it’s huge – not as big as Ford and Chevy communities - but certainly a whole lot stronger than those for brands like Oldsmobile and Buick.

In fact, there will be a huge Pontiac convention this summer, from July 7-11th. POCI [Pontiac-Oakland Club International] and GTOAA [GTO Association of America] are coming together for what could be the biggest Pontiac gathering ever.

Do you think there’s a place today for a brand like the Pontiac of the 1960s?

The answer is yes. There will always be a place for a guy who builds - and if I can use this cornball term – excitement. But no, I don’t think that place is Pontiac because they’ve allowed it to deteriorate so badly that the only people who still get it are really the all out auto enthusiast or maybe anyone who’s over 45 or 50.

He sounds more than a little bitter, but then again...I guess he has every goddamned right to.

I disagree with a few things. I'm 29. I get Pontiac. I love Pontiac. Pontiac makes one of a total 2 GM offerings I'd actually buy (G8, Camaro)...and makes the only offering that I feel isn't seriously compromised in some way for my tastes (can I get a shout out to the Camaro Dashboard Team?? :mad: )

But look at Pontiac, where it had been, during my lifetime. Taken in their contemporary contexts, how awesome were 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds? Grand Prix GTPs? Fieros? Hell, even Turbo and H.O. Quad 4 Grand Ams were nasty little street scrappers! These cars are why I loved Pontiac.

I loved the red dash lighting...the better bolstered seats with grippy corduroy style upholstery...yes, even the cladding sometimes. Pontiac Motor Division lost the war...but the battles on the street and in memories will still be fought by people like Wagners, the POCI members, and plain old enthusiasts like me who will restore, mod, and street race Pontiacs for years to come. I'm still trying to find an '06-'08 GXP for wifey...the more time goes on, the more we want one...

I was truly upset when Olds died...this is like taking a part of me away. It actually hurts.

Some solid words from the guy.

I am still bummed to this day about Oldsmobile. I never owned one, and I probably never planned to (I did really, really like the Quad442 in my younger years when it came out) but for a very long time the Oldsmobile brand meant something. I cannot explain it more than that, either you get it or you don't, and Pontiac was the same way.

That certainly says most of it, and I agree with most of it.

GM blew it - in slow motion.

If anybody could figure out what happened to Pontiac, it would be Jim Wangers. He was a major player in the sucess of Pontiac.
Wangers is absolutely correct when he said Pontiac died 30 years ago. When the last Pontiac 400 rolled off the assembly line in 1979 (in actuality, I believe it was 1978 and they just stockpiled them for the '79 model year), that was it.
And GM never, ever wanted to get the magic back. The Pontiac formula was not rocket science. They were stunning cars, with loads of power and great driving dynamics, at an affordable price. There was always something different on the Pontiac models that made them stand apart from their siblings at the other divisions.
GM just badge engineered them to death.

I've always said that GM should have consulted with guys like Wangers and any of the other living engineers, designers, and managers from the Pontiac division that worked there from 1960-1979.
Pontiac would have been way better off if they did.

Well, I feel like that largely validates my reasoning for Pontiac's demise: http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5948011&postcount=32

Really, it's just another one of those things that was obvious to everyone but GM.

For me, Pontiac has been dead or dying since 1981, when the last Pontiac V8 rolled off the assembly line.

There have been isolated moments when Pontiac showed some signs of life after that - '89 turbo Trans Am, the mid to late '80's turbo 1.8/2.0 Sunbirds, '89/'90 turbo Grand Prix. I also think that the last Grand Prix GXP was a great effort.

But beyond a very few high points, this brand was simply pissed away by those entrusted to lead it.

'89 turbo Trans Am.

Man that was an awesome car for its time.

My question is: Why haven't we unleashed their potential? The answer is: the General Motors system. It's like a blanket of fog that keeps these people from doing what they know needs to be done. I come from an environment where, if you see a snake, you kill it. At GM, if you see a snake, the first thing you do is go hire a consultant on snakes. Then you get a committee on snakes, and then you discuss it for a couple of years. The most likely course of action is -- nothing. You figure, the snake hasn't bitten anybody yet, so you just let him crawl around on the factory floor. We need to build an environment where the first guy who sees the snake kills it."-Ross Perot

I really think Pontiac would have been worthwile if it had been allowed to be the US arm of Holden focused on a line of Zeta's. Coupe, sedan, wagon, ute, all with AWD. They could have set up Oshawa to meet any demand Austrailia could not. Throw in the Solstice, a sporty Madza 3 like hatch, and a hot volume FWD sedan and things could really move.

I disagree with him on the GTO. The only people who turn their nose up to the GTO are old Fogies who want a modern caricature of the original. In terms of styling the V-body GTO represents where the GTO would have been had it stayed in production...considering the clean Pontiac's that came out at the time. Would it have sold better if it was more aggressivly styled..who knows. The GTO sales lagged at first because of the dealer markups, and then afterwards because the car was packaged so bad (which he does say). The GTO had no trunk, and a backseat that really was not car seat friendly. Also the lack of options like a sunroof, heated seats, XM, nav, and so forth really limited the cars market. I mean hell...in the Grand Pric you could get everything I noted above..pay less, and have enough performance for most people. That being said, the GTO aftermarket is very hot, and enthusiasts have embraced the car. I can't remember the last time I saw a GTO that was not modded.

I really think Pontiac would have been worthwile if it had been allowed to be the US arm of Holden focused on a line of Zeta's. Coupe, sedan, wagon, ute, all with AWD. They could have set up Oshawa to meet any demand Austrailia could not. Throw in the Solstice, a sporty Madza 3 like hatch, and a hot volume FWD sedan and things could really move.

I disagree with him on the GTO. The only people who turn their nose up to the GTO are old Fogies who want a modern caricature of the original. In terms of styling the V-body GTO represents where the GTO would have been had it stayed in production...considering the clean Pontiac's that came out at the time. Would it have sold better if it was more aggressivly styled..who knows. The GTO sales lagged at first because of the dealer markups, and then afterwards because the car was packaged so bad (which he does say). The GTO had no trunk, and a backseat that really was not car seat friendly. Also the lack of options like a sunroof, heated seats, XM, nav, and so forth really limited the cars market. I mean hell...in the Grand Pric you could get everything I noted above..pay less, and have enough performance for most people. That being said, the GTO aftermarket is very hot, and enthusiasts have embraced the car. I can't remember the last time I saw a GTO that was not modded.

I agree with virturally everything you said, Branden.

First, there was nothing wrong with the GTO. The original GTO was a sleeper that looked like every other Pontiac in the showroom at the time. The original GTO was also on the expensive side of muscle cars. But while I wouldn't call the killjoys of the new GTO "Old Fogies", I would say that the group as a whole were nothing more than a bunch of self appointed whiners that wanted a car that "looked like a GTO" without having a clue on earth to what a real GTO was.... a sleeper.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Holden's "language" in the late 60s and early 70s was vintage Pontiac, in style, theme, and "excitement". All that fell apart when Holden began becoming more aligned with Nissan then Opel and less aligned with North American flavored cars, before returning over the 1990s to large cars that could have been done in the US... even by Pontiac. It would have been a natural connection IMO.


Finally, Jim Wagner's comments.

While I will say the last Pontiac Firebirds rolled off the line in 1981, Pontiac still had quite a bit of life and sense of direction all the way up till perhaps the late 90s. In 1989, every Pontiac on the showroom floor save the Bonneville came with an optional blown engine... right down the the Cavalier based Sunbird. Although it started as a Buick engine, Pontiac Grand Prix made the supercharged 3.8 a legend. The Grand Am was over the top... and one of GM's best selling models.

Jim Wagners is bitter over the whole thing, and he has a right to be. While I feel he is 100% correct and then some regarding the management of Pontiac in recent years. I have found them a generally.... and I'm being polite here.... extremely and sorely lacking in any comprehension of the division they represent. It's as almost like GM's upper management picked Pontiac's general managers in recent years because they weren't smart enough or intellectually curious enough to be successful leading any important division or operation at GM.

When you get a General Manager that says that GM is continuing to invest in Pontiac's future at the same time GM has already announced that Pontiac will be a niche brand of a few models, you get a feeling that person either doesn't read office memos, or rode the short bus at management school. Either way, the movie "Hudsucker Proxy" came to mind when I read what she wrote in the GM blog.

GM's shortcomings was NEVER about the ability or comitment of the people working in the trenches. GM's shortcomings was NEVER about a lack of resources. GM had both in spades. The issue was, is, and always has been that their bureacracy has always been extremely disfunctional. It had a product approval process that discouraged new models. It had upper management that was always looking for a way to cut costs, but never was smart enough to realize when things were going too far or where the point of negitive returns began.

Pontiac became a brand that had no sense of direction. Plans for Pontiac were killed right and left. The G6. The North American Zeta program. Even the abandonment of names with historic significance and equity built up over the years.

All gone, not due to changing times, but bad and/or misguided management, and the inability (or unwillingness) to make any corrections to save the brand.


Pontiac is GM's 2nd biggest car brand. It's based here in North America.

If anything made sense as a "Niche brand" it would be the Buick division that sells far more cars in China than the US, and has only 2 cars.

Hell, even Turbo and H.O. Quad 4 Grand Ams were nasty little street scrappers!

Quad 4 Grand Ams were one of the worst cars ever manufactured by GM, or anyone. I sold mine when I tallied things up and found that it had a 60% failure rate (60% of the time I drove the car something broke), and that the failures were unrelated to each other. Combine with the fact that the car always failed in a way that completely disabled the vehicle (only once could I "limp" the car home).

The last time I ever saw a Quad 4 Grand Am was when I saw mine pull away after I sold it in 1999. BTW, we got a call a couple of hours later from the couple that bought it....irate at us because they didn't make it home.

Selling that car and buying a Camaro Z28 saved me several hundred dollars a month, even though I now had a car payment, used more gas and raised my insurance rates.

I disagree with him on the GTO. The only people who turn their nose up to the GTO are old Fogies who want a modern caricature of the original. In terms of styling the V-body GTO represents where the GTO would have been had it stayed in production...considering the clean Pontiac's that came out at the time. Would it have sold better if it was more aggressivly styled..who knows. The GTO sales lagged at first because of the dealer markups, and then afterwards because the car was packaged so bad (which he does say). The GTO had no trunk, and a backseat that really was not car seat friendly. Also the lack of options like a sunroof, heated seats, XM, nav, and so forth really limited the cars market. I mean hell...in the Grand Pric you could get everything I noted above..pay less, and have enough performance for most people. That being said, the GTO aftermarket is very hot, and enthusiasts have embraced the car. I can't remember the last time I saw a GTO that was not modded.

In one paragraph, you start by disagreeing about the GTO being a failure and finish up by explaining why it failed.......

I agree with virturally everything you said, Branden.

First, there was nothing wrong with the GTO. The original GTO was a sleeper that looked like every other Pontiac in the showroom at the time. The original GTO was also on the expensive side of muscle cars. But while I wouldn't call the killjoys of the new GTO "Old Fogies", I would say that the group as a whole were nothing more than a bunch of self appointed whiners that wanted a car that "looked like a GTO" without having a clue on earth to what a real GTO was.... a sleeper.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Holden's "language" in the late 60s and early 70s was vintage Pontiac, in style, theme, and "excitement". All that fell apart when Holden began becoming more aligned with Nissan then Opel and less aligned with North American flavored cars, before returning over the 1990s to large cars that could have been done in the US... even by Pontiac. It would have been a natural connection IMO.


Finally, Jim Wagner's comments.

While I will say the last Pontiac Firebirds rolled off the line in 1981, Pontiac still had quite a bit of life and sense of direction all the way up till perhaps the late 90s. In 1989, every Pontiac on the showroom floor save the Bonneville came with an optional blown engine... right down the the Cavalier based Sunbird. Although it started as a Buick engine, Pontiac Grand Prix made the supercharged 3.8 a legend. The Grand Am was over the top... and one of GM's best selling models.

Jim Wagners is bitter over the whole thing, and he has a right to be. While I feel he is 100% correct and then some regarding the management of Pontiac in recent years. I have found them a generally.... and I'm being polite here.... extremely and sorely lacking in any comprehension of the division they represent. It's as almost like GM's upper management picked Pontiac's general managers in recent years because they weren't smart enough or intellectually curious enough to be successful leading any important division or operation at GM.

When you get a General Manager that says that GM is continuing to invest in Pontiac's future at the same time GM has already announced that Pontiac will be a niche brand of a few models, you get a feeling that person either doesn't read office memos, or rode the short bus at management school. Either way, the movie "Hudsucker Proxy" came to mind when I read what she wrote in the GM blog.

GM's shortcomings was NEVER about the ability or comitment of the people working in the trenches. GM's shortcomings was NEVER about a lack of resources. GM had both in spades. The issue was, is, and always has been that their bureacracy has always been extremely disfunctional. It had a product approval process that discouraged new models. It had upper management that was always looking for a way to cut costs, but never was smart enough to realize when things were going too far or where the point of negitive returns began.

Pontiac became a brand that had no sense of direction. Plans for Pontiac were killed right and left. The G6. The North American Zeta program. Even the abandonment of names with historic significance and equity built up over the years.

All gone, not due to changing times, but bad and/or misguided management, and the inability (or unwillingness) to make any corrections to save the brand.


Pontiac is GM's 2nd biggest car brand. It's based here in North America.

If anything made sense as a "Niche brand" it would be the Buick division that sells far more cars in China than the US, and has only 2 cars.

You've nailed it pretty well here.

I would disagree about the last Firebird, as I believe that meaningful differences existed until the end in 2002.

Otherwise, I'm with you. Pontiac was operating on one-quarter rations for decades with a dearth of leadership.

GM's handling of this brand was nothing short of malpractice.

OH, and your point about Buick is spot on, that brand is moribund in North America and calling it a core brand is the definition of absurd.

Fools are still running the show.

Quad 4 Grand Ams were one of the worst cars ever manufactured by GM, or anyone. I sold mine when I tallied things up and found that it had a 60% failure rate (60% of the time I drove the car something broke), and that the failures were unrelated to each other. Combine with the fact that the car always failed in a way that completely disabled the vehicle (only once could I "limp" the car home).

The last time I ever saw a Quad 4 Grand Am was when I saw mine pull away after I sold it in 1999. BTW, we got a call a couple of hours later from the couple that bought it....irate at us because they didn't make it home.

Selling that car and buying a Camaro Z28 saved me several hundred dollars a month, even though I now had a car payment, used more gas and raised my insurance rates.

I'm not sure what your's was...my father had a '91. He purchased it in '93 with 27k on it...sold it in '98 with 125k on it to my uncle, who ran it until '02 and parked it with 156k or so on it.

In that time, all power accessories including the drivers seat worked fine. The car blew 1 head gasket at 80k, and that was it. The A/C was still cold, all engine accessories were original....the brakes were done 3 times, the tires twice, the exhaust once...and that was it. I think 1 wheel bearing may have been done at one point. What finally killed it for my uncle was a significant oil leak my uncle didn't feel like finding.

Not bad for 11 years and 156k, i.e. the polar opposite of your experience, apparently. I've seen several other Quad 4 Grand Ams run well for a long, long time as well.

Not all were junk...by any stretch. The worst thing about them was the incessant NVH!!

In one paragraph, you start by disagreeing about the GTO being a failure and finish up by explaining why it failed.......

Well it all depends on what failure we are talking about. If we mean the failure to live up to initial sales projections...than yes..it failed there. However once they got the car sorted out in 05-06 it sold as well as it could with the packaging limitations it had.

Well it all depends on what failure we are talking about. If we mean the failure to live up to initial sales projections...than yes..it failed there. However once they got the car sorted out in 05-06 it sold as well as it could with the packaging limitations it had.

Well, it failed to live up to sales projections, and I think it's safe to say it failed to captivate the imagination of the public at large. That last part would have been HUGE for Pontiac.

Pontiac had been protecting the GTO brand for years, no, make that decades. I can remember all sorts of GTO proposals dating back to the mid-80's. None of them ever moved forward. Pick your reasons. Not good enough to be a GTO. Not the right timing for a GTO. I suspect it had more to do with no one at Pontiac having the testicles to fight for it, more than anything else.

In the end, Pontiac imported a Holden Monaro right at the end of it's lifecycle, slapped some GTO emblems on it, and hoped for the best. It sort of acted as a place saver for the 4th gen Firebird, but in retrospect, probably missed the whole point of the GTO.

I disagree on the GTO- having grown up on Pontiac I thing the '05 GTO was spot on. They should never have brought out the 04 style. The car has a cult following to the point where our local club (Houston Goat Herd) knew almost every Aussie GTO in H town. The 64 GTO didn't look that much more aggressive than a 64 tempest or LeMans.

If you haven't had a chance to sit down and talk (listen) to Jim Wangers I feel sorry for you. I've met Jim 5 times and everytime he is happy to answer any question you could ask (one year I asked how common cloth interior in a Can Am was cause mine had one and he promptly told me to get documentation because he didn't remember building one with cloth interior (it was dealer installed)).

I showed Jim a pic of my 65 GP with Bobcat trim and a GTO hood scoop and he said "god I would have love to have the lattitude to do that. But son, I don;t think I Pontiac ever sold a Grand Prix with poverty caps". I went home and put full wheel covers on it out of respect- (he signed the glove box I had with me) and it looked great. Jim doesn't like sleepers- he liked cars to look aggressive.

If you get a chance read his book- interesting stories in there.

If anyone ever got Pontiac it was DeLeorean, Knudsen and Wangers. I think Z284ever made a cool comment on DeLorean on another post.

Pontiac could have worked... there have been innovative cars since '79 (I have '79 TATA so I see both sides) The 6000 STE is a great example- they had AWD! The turbo Sunbird was ahead of its time- how many turbo FWD's do you see today? The Bonneville SSE of the early 90's looked awesome. We all remember the Bonneville SSEI of the 90's and the GTP. GTA's always looked good (god love the 89 TTA). The 4th gen- not much needs to be said. bolt ons and slicks got you a 12 second car- if that doesn't scream Pontiac I don't know what does. I'm repeating what others have said now- but I truly beleive it.

Sorry for the rant- I don't want to save the pontiac of today...I want to remember the Pontiacs that blew me away.

Not all were junk...by any stretch. The worst thing about them was the incessant NVH!!
IIRC that was a commonly cited problem with the Quad 4s. For its time it was a nice little engine, especially when Jim Feuling got hold of it and made it monster for the Aerotech program.

I think it's interesting that posters on this board consistantly dismiss the GTO's 1994 Opel Omega jellybean styling. The same design got ripped by the auto press five years earlier when it was called the Cadillac Catera, I have no idea why GM thought it could cut it as a "GTO".

The car wasn't just a "sleeper", it was simply old-fashioned looking. Ford totally blind-sided GM with the 2005 "retro" Mustang.

Pontiac had been protecting the GTO brand for years, no, make that decades. I can remember all sorts of GTO proposals dating back to the mid-80's. None of them ever moved forward. Pick your reasons. Not good enough to be a GTO. Not the right timing for a GTO. I suspect it had more to do with no one at Pontiac having the testicles to fight for it, more than anything else.

Yeah it is interesting that GM protected the GTO name for so long, only to wheel it out for an inexpensive, halfassed effort. I suspect that's because the GM board was already souring on the Pontiac, and they wanted to exploit their trademarks while they still could.

Would the car have sold better if it was called the "Pontiac G7" or the "Chevy Camaro SS"? Maybe, maybe not. But Wagners made a great point that when the public didn't respond to "GTO", Pontiac as a brand was effectively dead.

Yeah it is interesting that GM protected the GTO name for so long, only to wheel it out for an inexpensive, halfassed effort. I suspect that's because the GM board was already souring on the Pontiac, and they wanted to exploit their trademarks while they still could.

Would the car have sold better if it was called the "Pontiac G7" or the "Chevy Camaro SS"? Maybe, maybe not. But Wagners made a great point that when the public didn't respond to "GTO", Pontiac as a brand was effectively dead.


I think what made the original GTO such a hit was, that it was based on an already popular car. It was easy to buy, easy to own, easy to live with. And for afew extra bucks, someone could get the GTO pkg with a bigger motor, more performance and some really cool trim. None of that took away from the car's utility or ease of ownership. For afew more bucks, you could get an even hotter motor, a better trans, a pillarless coupe or a convertible - and again, none of that kept you from taking the whole family shopping in it.

I think the GTO was seen as a place holder for one that was done right based on VE. Had we gotten what GM had on the boards as the next gen GTO this issue would be mute.

This whole killing off Pontiac, is a much more HUGE mistake than killing off Oldsmobile, it really sickens me to see it...

A re-organization...re-invention...re-birth; should've been seriously thoughtout first...and I believed it was just begining to do that!..

Pontiac has made many cars worthy of respect, regardless of a person's brand affiliation...

But I can't say I didn't see it coming...

My first car was a '67 Firebird...:usa:

I think what made the original GTO such a hit was, that it was based on an already popular car. It was easy to buy, easy to own, easy to live with. And for afew extra bucks, someone could get the GTO pkg with a bigger motor, more performance and some really cool trim. None of that took away from the car's utility or ease of ownership. For afew more bucks, you could get an even hotter motor, a better trans, a pillarless coupe or a convertible - and again, none of that kept you from taking the whole family shopping in it.

Based on that I think the GTO would have been a great package on the G8 coupe.

G8 V6 coupe = 3.6L
G8 GT coupe = 6.0L
GTO = 6.2L G8 coupe with bigger wheels and fancy hood grills.

I disagree on the GTO- having grown up on Pontiac I thing the '05 GTO was spot on. They should never have brought out the 04 style. The car has a cult following to the point where our local club (Houston Goat Herd) knew almost every Aussie GTO in H town. The 64 GTO didn't look that much more aggressive than a 64 tempest or LeMans.

...

Pontiac could have worked... there have been innovative cars since '79 (I have '79 TATA so I see both sides) The 6000 STE is a great example- they had AWD! The turbo Sunbird was ahead of its time- how many turbo FWD's do you see today? The Bonneville SSE of the early 90's looked awesome. We all remember the Bonneville SSEI of the 90's and the GTP. GTA's always looked good (god love the 89 TTA). The 4th gen- not much needs to be said. bolt ons and slicks got you a 12 second car- if that doesn't scream Pontiac I don't know what does. I'm repeating what others have said now- but I truly beleive it.

Sorry for the rant- I don't want to save the pontiac of today...I want to remember the Pontiacs that blew me away.

I'm with you on a lot of this. I believe the 04-06 GTO's were a very faithful rendition of the GTO, and yes they are a cult car today and a great performance value with superb structural underpinnings and handling. I think GM's holding on to the Pontiac name for the day when they can bring it back with more cars to make it proud, like the ones mentioned above. GM will recover, then they will get another chance.

Based on that I think the GTO would have been a great package on the G8 coupe.

G8 V6 coupe = 3.6L
G8 GT coupe = 6.0L
GTO = 6.2L G8 coupe with bigger wheels and fancy hood grills.


Maybe. But, since that would be a 2+2, I'd think it more of a spiritual successor to the Firebird. The family probably wouldn't be having lots of fun cramped in that, and you'd most likely need to limit your volume of groceries too.


It's too bad that Pontiac's "4 door coupe" proposal never caught on. I think it could have been a game changer for Pontiac, and maybe given us a truly faithful, modern interpretation of the GTO.

It's too bad that Pontiac's "4 door coupe" proposal never caught on. I think it could have been a game changer for Pontiac, and maybe given us a truly faithful, modern interpretation of the GTO.

Agreed.

Kind of like Pontiac's version of the CTS(V)

Hmm, I'm not so sure.

I would flat-out hate a GTO "4-door coupe".

A G8-based GTO coupe debuting with the sedan would have made a big difference IMO.

When the new GTO came out, I was all for it. I really thought it followed GTOs formulas from the past. And it probably did.
However, when they debuted the new Camaro, I instantly knew they blew it with the new GTO.
The formula they followed for the rebirth of the Camaro should have been the same one they followed with the new GTO.
Now, GM probably didn't want to spend the money to completely reskin the outgoing Monaro, and I understand that.
If that were the case, they should have just waited for the new Zeta Commodore and given us a GTO worthy of the originals.

I understand what a GTO was when it first came out.
However, over the years, the car was elevated to a cult status, far beyond what GM & Pontiac first intended.

If the guys that did the new Camaro were allowed to do to the new GTO what they did to the Camaro, the car would have been a HUGE hit.

From now until the world ends, a new GTO CANNOT be a hi-po version of a current Pontiac (or Holden). It needs to be familiar. It needs to look like an original GTO.

Look, the retro Mustang is a hit, the Challenger is a hit, the new Camaro is a hit.

If the new GTO had followed that formula, it would have succeeded.

I have never driven one of the newer GTO's. If people say it is fast, handles good, and brews coffee in the morning, I will take their word for it. No arguments on facts whatsoever.

My issue with the GTO -- and this is purely personal -- is that I thought it was just plain ugly.

The original GTO was not all that great looking of a car. It was also not as fast as us oldsters like to remember. However, given the almost cult status that developed around the old GTO -- or "Goat" as us old guys like to say -- it seems to me that a new GTO needed to have stunning looks in order for the average buyer -- not the enthusiast -- to accept it.

That is why I thought the appearance of the car was all wrong in order for it to be successful.

Trust me, the car was fantastic.

I miss mine terribly - even more now that I can't get the replacement I was planning on.

Just a thought, but maybe if they would have brought over the coupe 60 as the new GTO, built it in Australia and imported it along with the G8, it could have saved Pontiac. As I understand it, this was explored early in Zeta's life but was not approved. I'm sure this would have stolen alot of Camaro sales and helped Pontiacs image. Probably the reason why it wasn't.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/02/coupe60-37.jpg

Just a thought, but maybe if they would have brought over the coupe 60 as the new GTO, built it in Australia and imported it along with the G8, it could have saved Pontiac. As I understand it, this was explored early in Zeta's life but was not approved. I'm sure this would have stolen alot of Camaro sales and helped Pontiacs image. Probably the reason why it wasn't.

Actually, it's the other way around. The Coupe 60 show car was derived from the already dead 3 year old Zeta GTO prototype:

http://motortrend.automotive.com/36107/112-news290802-secret-pontiac-gto/index.html

http://image.automotive.com/f/features/auto_news/2008/9221228+pheader/112_news290802_02l+pontiac_GTO+front_three_quarter _drawing.jpg

I tend to agree that Pontiac died after they stopped building their own drivetrains. :p

Do you think there’s a place today for a brand like the Pontiac of the 1960s?

The answer is yes. There will always be a place for a guy who builds - and if I can use this cornball term – excitement. But no, I don’t think that place is Pontiac because they’ve allowed it to deteriorate so badly that the only people who still get it are really the all out auto enthusiast or maybe anyone who’s over 45 or 50.


I disagree with a few things. I'm 29. I get Pontiac. I love Pontiac. Pontiac makes one of a total 2 GM offerings I'd actually buy (G8, Camaro)...and makes the only offering that I feel isn't seriously compromised in some way for my tastes (can I get a shout out to the Camaro Dashboard Team?? :mad: )



I don't think you disagree with him. You're clearly from column B (all out auto enthusiast). Most of us on this forum are. Some of us are both column A and column B.

Losing the mainstream under-40s is what killed Pontiac.

Same with Olds. And it would probably happen to Buick too if not for China.

I started worrying about Pontiac in 2002 when the last Trans Am rolled off the line. To me, that was the last Pontiac that truly carried the BRAND IDENTITY that GM had worked for 40 years to build. The Trans Am was the last true Pontiac in the respect that it had widespread identification with hardcore Pontiac fans.

Other cars in the line at that time had the same style and swagger. The 97 GP embodied it very well, the 5th generation Grand Am had it (1999, I believe) Even the last Bonneville (even though the GXP was a disappointment) and first generation Vibe had a little bit of it.

But then Trans Am died... And after that, things just started going downhill. The last GP and G6 were cheapened and fell behind the competiton badly. The Vibe was allowed to wither. The G5 and G3 are not even worth mentioning.

Don't get me wrong, some of the new Pontiacs are GREAT, but they do nothing to advance the brand identity that most people associate with Pontiac.

For instance; the GP GXP. It did embody the essence of Pontiac in respect to fairly riske styling and performance, but it suffered because it took what should've been a Chevrolet design all along (if the GP was even worthy of Chevy) and put a Pontiac flavor on it. So, even though the will to create something good was there, it was difficult to overcome the reality of the situation.

The GTO is a great car and I'd be happy to own one. However, it would've been more at home in an Oldsmobile showroom (had Olds survived) It was NOT what the public considered a Pontiac, much less a GTO. And that's where the big disconnect comes in.

The same thing can be said for the G8. It's a fabulous car, but it isn't "Pontiac" it's what GM wants Pontiac to be. And without substantial marketing, no division, let alone GM division, has ever made a transition like that. Not Oldsmobile, not Saturn, not Pontiac (And I fear not Buick) The G8 would've been better suited as a Buick IMO.

The Solstice did a good job at embodying the spirit of the Pontiac brand. However there was still a disconnect because it isn't what "Pontiac" is under the hood. The concept actually worked better as a Saturn because Pontiac wasn't quite at the point where it was viewed as a performance automaker in the 4 cylinder realm. The Solstice helped change that perception by leaps and bounds, but the image still wasn't quite there. To the average Joe, Pontiac wasn't about small, euro inspired sports cars. Once again, nothing against the car as I'd have no problem parking one in the driveway. I'm merely trying to explain what I think happened.

THUS, the nexus of Pontiac.... We have a volume division with a loyal fanbase. The volume division introduced uncompetitive volume models and that part of it's buyer base dried up. At the same time, it alienated it's fanbase by no longer being the "brand" that they identify with (Which is what Wangers touches on) It's largely the same reason GM is jettisoning it's other brands. Saturn, for example, in the mind of the consumer = small cars. Not euro cars... Not $30K Outlooks... Hummer = big braison luxury utes. Not efficiency and run-of-the-mill models. Saab = specific, quirky models, not warmed over Epsilons and GMT360s. GM, as a corporation, apparently cannot think on the niche level. And that's sad given the potential they had.

And I fear that this is why most of GM's hardcore fanbase will leave the company eventually. Because, as fans, we seek 1) Cars and brands that we identify with and 2) Products that are somewhat unique and tailored. The new direction of GM makes no allowances for that kind of buyer. The ONLY models that will be left that allow that kind of buyer are the (very endangered) Camaro, the out-of-reach and aging Corvette, the soon-to-be-cancelled HHR SS and Cobalt SS and the WAY out-of-reach for most of us CTS-V.

I have a feeling I'll be buying classics from here on out.:( Personally, after Pontiac is gone, the ONLY chance GM has (as of right now) of getting my $$$ is through the Camaro. And if Camaro goes to Alpha without a V8, then I'm out for good.

I started worrying about Pontiac in 2002 when the last Trans Am rolled off the line. To me, that was the last Pontiac that truly carried the BRAND IDENTITY that GM had worked for 40 years to build. The Trans Am was the last true Pontiac in the respect that it had widespread identification with hardcore Pontiac fans.


Too bad they didn't have a chance to bring out the G7 GXP (a Pontiac version of the Camaro SS). Or would that have been the G7 GTP?:D (really :()

I tend to agree that Pontiac died after they stopped building their own drivetrains. :p

Here, here!:thumb: Friggin "corporate" powertrains...LOL.

Hmm, I'm not so sure.

I would flat-out hate a GTO "4-door coupe".

A G8-based GTO coupe debuting with the sedan would have made a big difference IMO.

I don't know if it would have been called GTO, but from how it was described to me, there were lots of GTO cues. Think MB CLS meets '65 Goat....or at least, that's the image conjured up in my mind as it was described to me.

Anyway, that would have been a car which would have gone straight to the top of my shopping list as a daily driver. I still need to occasionally carry 5 people - not often, but when I need to, I really need to.

If that car had a GTO emblem on it, it would have been virtually irresistible to me. To me, that would have fulfilled my modern rendition of a GTO.

TO me Pontiac lost their way when GM did. They shared too much with other divisions and didn't have their own product. GM spent more time and marketing money to brand vehicles into a Pontiac instead of bringing out their own product. GM has been down to three brands for a long time and Pontiac was stuck in with the other middle brands just taking up marketing energy. It's truly sad that they have to go but I'd rather they did than just whittle away into nothing. That seemed almost inevitable in the current automotive landscape and certainly in GM's position.

Too bad they didn't have a chance to bring out the G7 GXP (a Pontiac version of the Camaro SS). Or would that have been the G7 GTP?:D (really :()

Quite abit less evocative than say, Firebird Trans Am. And I wouldn't suppose they'd have a shaker scoop with a "T/A 6.6" badge on it.

I have a feeling I'll be buying classics from here on out.:( Personally, after Pontiac is gone, the ONLY chance GM has (as of right now) of getting my $$$ is through the Camaro. And if Camaro goes to Alpha without a V8, then I'm out for good.

What if Camaro goes Alpha with a smaller V8? ;)

I tend to agree on the classics. As much as I want a new Camaro I am hesitant to give up my classic 1st gens. IMHO 1st gen Firebirds are still a bargain these days. The price on classic cars has dipped with the recession and nice Firebird projects can be picked up for far less than $10k. Although I've always preferred Camaros, the 67-68 Firebirds are downright gorgeous in their own right and lets face it... the early 70s Firebirds are much better looking than their Camaro counterparts. (There I said it! Kill me now!! ;) )

As much as I hate to see Pontiac go, I think it has too. Pontiac has become rebadged Chevys. Pontiacs upgraded engines are in Chevys.

To fix Pontiac, new drive trains would have to be developed for performance. With GM being the way it is, they would also put those into Chevys as SS models. As GM is today, Chevy has more performance than Pontiac. Pontiac tries to make it on volume and has turned from excitement to rental car. It is a shame that it has come to this. If Pontiac was true to its roots, it could have survived.

With GM being the way it is, they would also put those into Chevys as SS models. As GM is today, Chevy has more performance than Pontiac.

This gets right to the heart of the problem. Chevrolet has the Cobalt SS - 260 horsepower and world class handling for a FWD. The "Performance" division gets the G5 and even the "GT" only offers the same 2.2 as the base Cobalt. Chevrolet has the 3.6 as the only available V6 for the Malibu, but you have to get a "GXP" just to get equal performance in the G6. No platform Pontiac shares with Chevy is in any way "performance" by comparison.

What if Camaro goes Alpha with a smaller V8? ;)

I'd be all over it (as long as I could fit in it) Everything I hear says that Alpha will be engineered for a V8 in some form. In fact, this is the only site which consistently states otherwise.

I tend to agree on the classics. As much as I want a new Camaro I am hesitant to give up my classic 1st gens. IMHO 1st gen Firebirds are still a bargain these days. The price on classic cars has dipped with the recession and nice Firebird projects can be picked up for far less than $10k. Although I've always preferred Camaros, the 67-68 Firebirds are downright gorgeous in their own right and lets face it... the early 70s Firebirds are much better looking than their Camaro counterparts. (There I said it! Kill me now!! ;) )

I've been eye-balling 68 Firebirds and 67 GTOs lately... I think I might go that way when the time for me to purchase comes up. I've ALWAYS wanted one of each.



To fix Pontiac, new drive trains would have to be developed for performance. With GM being the way it is, they would also put those into Chevys as SS models. As GM is today, Chevy has more performance than Pontiac. Pontiac tries to make it on volume and has turned from excitement to rental car. It is a shame that it has come to this. If Pontiac was true to its roots, it could have survived.

I still liked the HSV/OPC idea... Import a few of those over here as Pontiacs and call it a day. However, I can see why GM doesn't want to do that. They can't even sell a G6 for sticker these days. Imagine how hard a premium performance machine with a Pontiac badge would be to sell (sadly)

This gets right to the heart of the problem. Chevrolet has the Cobalt SS - 260 horsepower and world class handling for a FWD. The "Performance" division gets the G5 and even the "GT" only offers the same 2.2 as the base Cobalt. Chevrolet has the 3.6 as the only available V6 for the Malibu, but you have to get a "GXP" just to get equal performance in the G6. No platform Pontiac shares with Chevy is in any way "performance" by comparison.

Pontiac got edged out badly in the corporate politics. Chevrolet is GM's superstar, so what it says goes. Cadillac had it in for Pontiac as well since Pontiac did, or could do, what Cadillac does performance-wise.. except BETTER and at a cheaper price.

The death blow was when CAFE got signed though.. AFAIK, Zeta and Holden were Pontiac's only hope of existing in the future as GM went into global phase. Pontiac is the only division that doesn't have a global presence (which is vital at GM now, even more so since the meltdown) When Zeta got nixed, it threw Pontiac into crisis. When Cadillac demanded control of Alpha, that drove one of the last nails in the coffin.

I almost think Pontiac would've been fine had large car sales not started to tank in Australia. GM had hinted at introducing Chevrolet there and as such Chevrolet would be the volume division. This likely would've pushed Holden into a more premium, smaller position (even though some contended that Holden would be phased out) As such, Holden and Pontiac could've been sort of "global niche partners" based around Zeta and Alpha, with Holden still supplying Buicks for China and Chevies for the middle east.

However, GM's financial woes and the global large car 'crisis' made it increasingly apparent that 1) GM didn't have the resources to launch Chevy in Oz and as a result 2) Holden (via the Volt, Cruze and 2nd Delta announcements) would now be aligned with Chevrolet on a global basis. That, IMO, was the final nail in the coffin... Pontiac was a sitting duck with no global partner, no future product and a cash strapped parent that placed it as LAST priority.

GM actually did debate on giving Pontiac an alpha variant. But what for when Buick wanted a version for China (Riviera) and that Buick/Cadillac/Chevrolet set up could be unified across the globe? What's even worse for Pontiac is that, Chevy is REQUIRED on the alpha program in order to make it profitable. Yet, Pontiac cannot sell at a higher retail than Chevy because the name is so damaged. So, essentially, in very basic terms, the FUTURE of Pontiac which was alpha would basically be non-conducive to a global set up and non conducive to the North American market simply because it would compete with Chevrolet, so why not just make those sells Chevrolet?

This is what's so difficult for me... From a business standpoint, I can VERY MUCH justify and agree with why Pontiac was phased out. However, from an emotional standpoint (the more dominant side of my brain) I can't help but resent GM for effing everything up as bad as they did and then refusing to correct it.

I'll hold out hope that Pontiac may return someday, as there seems to be a lot of talk of it and I'm sure GM is listening. AND it would be easy to do. But I won't hold my breath

I still liked the HSV/OPC idea... Import a few of those over here as Pontiacs and call it a day. However, I can see why GM doesn't want to do that. They can't even sell a G6 for sticker these days. Imagine how hard a premium performance machine with a Pontiac badge would be to sell (sadly)
It also kills the volume that Pontiac has today and Pontiac becomes niche.

Some people love that idea, I don't think it can survive today like that.

This is what's so difficult for me... From a business standpoint, I can VERY MUCH justify and agree with why Pontiac was phased out. However, from an emotional standpoint (the more dominant side of my brain) I can't help but resent GM for effing everything up as bad as they did and then refusing to correct it.


GM didn't refuse to correct it. They tried. But for all the reasons you gave elsewhere and more, they didn't succeed. It's not clear to me that there was a solution. They could have taken different approaches, but each approach would have brought its own set of problems.

Wangers comments i agree with. Pontiacs undoing started long ago. I'd even argue it started when Pontiac stopped having there own motors.

The pontiac i grew up with had good popularity. Grandam, firebird, grandprix. Sadly, it was allowed to unravel.


Now it's a ridiculous brand. G3, G5, G6..... <snore>


Three recent successes ? GTO, G8, Solstice. I do consider the GTO a "good thing". I think it satisfied the original GTO formula and was a solid performance machine. It came however at a complicated time. Media and public focus put it under an unreasonable microscope. Well beyond it's short comings IMO.