FWD performance

Seems like GM is missing out on the small FWD performance market. Do they plan on ever covering that, or will they leave it to Ford and its Focus SVT and the imports?

There is a supercharged version of the base Vibe in the works that will have 180hp and be avail in auto/manual transmission. I believe the SC Ion is also still in the works.

Now, where is that affordable V-8/RWD option???

Crossover and a car with an ugly interior? They can do better...

I think they are moving but slowly, the vibe which was mentioned and the cavalier which has s supercharger for the manuals and i think there is a performance version that should come out soon after the new body style. Let us also not forget that the Impala SS will be coming and we may see it on the auto show floor very soon...

GMHTP has an article of an Impala SS with an Ls1 stuffed by Jon Moss and it definitely looks like a sleeper, like the 96 model, but i'm guessing that the SS won't have it but just a supercharged V6 with the FWD. We may also get something for the Monte carlos but it will not be too much, perhaps the same supercharger as the Impy i'm guessing

I think a good many models are in the works for that market but GM is waiting for vehicles on the new platforms to come out. Car's like the new Grand Am, Cavalier, Sunfire replacement, Soltice?, Ion. Within 2 years they should all be out I believe.

Funny. I thought "FWD performance" was an oxymoron.

Originally posted by centric
Funny. I thought "FWD performance" was an oxymoron.

That attitude is a good way to piss away market share.

Centric has a point...

Performance aint FWD...

RWD or AWD is performance.

It's a market.

Subaru has it.
Toyota has it.
Pontiac (sorta, but not completely) has it.
Honda has it.
Ford has it.
Chrysler has it.

Overall, GM's offering of a relatively slow not-all-that-small and definitely-not-all-that-tight car and a crossover station wagon is really pathetic.

Call it what you like it still FWD

Pseudo-Performance has a nice ring to it.

;)

But sure I agree you should milk the suckers who buy this FWD crap.. :)

Sporty FWD cars are really not as bad as most of us make them out to be. Personally I just give them hell because they don't own Camaros (same treatment as Mustang owners get, but with less expectation that they'll ever be as fast. :) ). It's not a shameful market.

RWD is less complex under the hood due to the symmetrical layout of the motor and the transmission being further back all on its own, not cluttering space or causing complexity. RWD is better as far as weight distribution for performance. You want the weight squarely on the wheels with power? Well by default the engine's weight is attracted vertically straight down by gravity, and the car's weight overall is 50/50 over front to back, give or take, so it would appear that FWD has the advantage? maybe in the snow at turtle speeds. But when you're launching forward (i.e. performance), the angle is not straight down anymore, it's somewhere around 45 - 60 degrees back, right where the rear wheels are, taking all the weight of the engine and the car, and getting great traction, while the front wheels do the steering. A RWD's rear end is likely to want to squat down while the front end rises up, further enhancing traction and weight trajectory, pushing the weight along. a FWD pulls the weight, it doesn't push it, and doesn't do the squat/rise effect nearly as effectively.. with its engine being the heaviest concentration of the car directly on top of the drive wheels accelerating hard is more likely to lose traction because of the same effect of the weight shift back, plus it makes no performance sense to use the same wheels exclusively for acceleration and for steering. I say "exclusively" because I'm all about AWD for performance too, but never FWD.

RWD: Picture a sprinter that has just taken off the starting line. Picture the legs as the rear wheels, the arms as the front wheels, the head & torso as the engine. The body is leaning forward at an extreme angle. All the body weight is being directed down and back at the 45-or-so angle I mentioned and this setup has extremely high efficiency for propulsion. FWD: Now picture the same person having to use his arms instead of his legs to go the distance, with wheels at his feet (to eliminate/reduce friction) ! He's not pushing his weight along but pulling it. Highly inefficient and strenuous with plenty of deadweight to drag (legs).

That's nice and all, and I realize that FWD is actually terrible for track and drag racing, but it's just an important market that GM appears to be mostly ignoring.

Originally posted by cmc
That's nice and all, and I realize that FWD is actually terrible for track and drag racing, but it's just an important market that GM appears to be mostly ignoring.

That's nice and all, but this thread is about FWD performance, not FWD markets. FWD was not made for performance. face it.

Originally posted by kizz
That's nice and all, but this thread is about FWD performance, not FWD markets. FWD was not made for performance. face it.

Having started this thread, I figure I know what it's about.

I too agree that GM is missing out completely on this market. The only car they haev in it is the Vibe, a rebadged Ponitac. Oh, and forwhoever said it was supercharged, its not. Its a 180hp N/A engine codesigned with Yamaha. They use it in the Celica GTS.

IMO the Cavalier needs to be redesigned. If they could build a car with better suspension geometry, and a better engine, say 160hp base (like the RSX) chevy could really have something going. A 200hp higher model motor would also be a nice option.

And for those of you who say FWD cant be designed into a serious performance car, stop being so narrow minded. Look at the Integra Type R, its one of the best handling cars made and has good acceration as well. The RSX Type S is no slouch in its own right. The you have the Celica GTS, which is capable of 14 second ets with nothing mroe than an intake bolted on. While FWD isnt optimal for performance, it doesnt mean it cant be had.

I think the 180hp engine refered to was the base 1.8L with the up and coming supercharger.

I agree, GM totally lacks any small FWD performance cars--and it needs them---FWD does have it's place.

Anyone who thinks that it is fine for GM to avoid the FWD performance market like they are is nuts.

Young teens, young adults start with cheap cars. Why do you think they all mod Civics and such. You need to lure them in when they are young.

It's called BRAND LOYALTY!

What do you think the twenty-somethings are getting when they need to get out of their civic? A Chevy? A Ford? HELL NO, they go buy an Accord or a TL. Same for Toyota, Mitsubushi, etc.

Everyone is arguing for v8/RWD, but not many younger people can afford that therefore you may be losing them as a customer forever. You need to hook them when they are young and give them many product offerings up the line. If they do that, then when the get older, they may be looking for a nice new v8/RWD car, and this market segment may again thrive.

The the solution is to bring out cheap RWD platforms :p

that would be great (samll rwd platforms)--but will never happen. A resurgance of RWD is occouring but only on a very small scale.
JC 99Z---you hit the nail on the head.

You bring out the base model commodore from Aus and you have a cheap RWD platform starting at aprox 15 K US

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I think a good many models are in the works for that market but GM is waiting for vehicles on the new platforms to come out. Car's like the new Grand Am, Cavalier, Sunfire replacement, Soltice?, Ion. Within 2 years they should all be out I believe.

Thats what I am assuming.. Listening to the GM propaganda, they want the Ecotech to be the "SBC" of I4's...


The way I view FWD, is people are takign normal cheap everyday pedestrian cars, and wringing out every ounce of performance...

Kinda like back in "the old days", when people took whatever they could find and tried to make it go fast....

Originally posted by bigsteve7
Oh, and forwhoever said it was supercharged, its not. Its a 180hp N/A engine codesigned with Yamaha. They use it in the Celica GTS.

Thanks for that news flash. If you'll turn to pg. 28 of the current MotorTrend, you will see that a supercharger is infact being offered first quarter this year (developed by TRD) on the base, 130-hp engine. Yes, there is a 180-hp engine from the GTS in the Vibe GT. This is not what I was referring to. The supercharged engine should provide better low-end torque, presumably. This package will be available as an automatic or five-speed manual, where as the Vibe GT is six-speed only.

FWD is not what we typically think of when we think "performance." It was not designed with this type of performance in mind. That said, there are infact cars that are sporty that depend on a FWD layout. If it's only a matter of numbers, several FWDers outrun beloved muscle cars of the past. The upcoming Neon SRT-4 a prime example, the Acura RSX-S and previously Integra Type R, are cars with respectable acceleration and handling.

Ultimately, it's a matter of driver preference and what you feel most comfortable with. Personally, FWD is not my choice. Obviously, many people do care for FWD and these are people spending a lot of money buying a lot of cars. In that sense, it is something GM should consider addressing, as I feel they are in the process of doing. Trucks are not what I think of when I think of performance either, yet it seems to not get looked down upon as much. Being performance enthusiasts, why wouldn't you want more cars offered?

Originally posted by jrp4uc
Thanks for that news flash. If you'll turn to pg. 28 of the current MotorTrend, you will see that a supercharger is infact being offered first quarter this year (developed by TRD) on the base, 130-hp engine. Yes, there is a 180-hp engine from the GTS in the Vibe GT. This is not what I was referring to. The supercharged engine should provide better low-end torque, presumably. This package will be available as an automatic or five-speed manual, where as the Vibe GT is six-speed only.


Whoops! Please excuse my ignorance. I should have read your first post closer. I thought you were talking about the motor already in production. :)

I remember the Vibe teaser pictures. I was really hoping for an in-house two-door hatchback a la VW's GTI. I think that something like that (Civic Si, Focus SVT, VW GTI, et al) would be what Chevrolet needs.

MUST HAVE:
Rev-happy motor. All the characteristics of an LS1, scaled down in power and size and fuel economy (but not all that much, as we all know), and slightly more wired.

Stickshift. For all models. More gears on the higher end model. Don't put the automatic on the fast cars. People don't like that.

Real bucket seats. Cavalier seats suck. Malibu seats suck. R&D a whole new seat.

Solid dash with nice materials. CTS or RS-X style materials. But don't copycat an RS-X. Tasteful black gauges with white print would be fine.

Two door model. This just goes without saying.

High-power four-valve engine. Offer aftermarket parts for this engine through SPO.

Some gimmick. Something that makes it odd, but attractive. Civic Si has the shifter coming out of the dash. Come up with something. AND NOT TELEMATICS. AND NOT HUD. In fact, don't offer it with HUD. Don't offer it with onstar!

Anybody else want to add to this list?

Originally posted by AnthonyHSV
The the solution is to bring out cheap RWD platforms :p like a new f-body.:D

Originally posted by AnthonyHSV
The the solution is to bring out cheap RWD platforms :p

bingo. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think this is the ONLY thing that can revitalize GM's disposable feel lately. It's like GM is feeling the hurt but they're too busy dribbling out the mouth in a fit of cerebral palsy or something, just continuing on in their oblivion. A substantial number of abandoned GM folks out there are continuing to just re-buy the same used RWD 80s cars till there aren't any left. The more GM waits, the harder it will be to catch back up later. FWD bubblesafety commuter micro-drones?... zzzzzzz..... no wonder overpriced gas guzzler SUV's are selling. it's the only other alternative for those who are gluttonous and attention starved. wake me up when it's over......zzzz........

Originally posted by kizz
bFWD bubblesafety commuter micro-drones?

If you're referring to the cars I think GM should start looking into selling, perhaps you ought to open your eyes the next time you're out taking a drive.

Originally posted by cmc
Anybody else want to add to this list?

1. Good suspension. All the good sport compacts have nice suspension set ups.

2. Make it easy to mod! Thast one mistake honda made with the new engines theyre building. Sure, theyre nice engines with potential, but a large part of the sport compact market is the aftermarket and a car's modibility, hence why the old civics are so popular. The new honda motors with their exhaust manifold on the back of the engine and other changes make them harder to mod than the old motors. Don't forget the aftermarket!

I'd take a 4 door mid-sized fwd CAR over a sport-ute anyday--at least a car can be fun to drive. Like Mazda 6--with the 220hp and a 5spd.

Originally posted by 305fan
I'd take a 4 door mid-sized fwd CAR over a sport-ute anyday--at least a car can be fun to drive. Like Mazda 6--with the 220hp and a 5spd.

How about the upcoming Supercharged Impala SS?

With a styling update, (along with Monte Carlo SS) , I expect them to be pretty darn nice for FWD everyday drivers!

Originally posted by cmc
Some gimmick. Something that makes it odd, but attractive. Civic Si has the shifter coming out of the dash. Come up with something. AND NOT TELEMATICS. AND NOT HUD. In fact, don't offer it with HUD. Don't offer it with onstar!


Whats wrong with HUD??? :confused:

Have you ever driven a C5 with it? it KICKS ASS!!! it's good for driving fast, you don't need to take your eyes off the road. The new Grand Pirx will let you shut off all interion lights and use just the HUD.

Originally posted by Z28x
Whats wrong with HUD??? :confused:

Have you ever driven a C5 with it? it KICKS ASS!!! it's good for driving fast, you don't need to take your eyes off the road. The new Grand Pirx will let you shut off all interion lights and use just the HUD.

Agreed.

Everyone I know who has had HUD has really liked it, and some has gone as far to say that it would be a major factor in the purchase of a future car...

I have a Vibe, the GT model and it is sporty but it is not a performance car. It is extremely functional due to the covering applied to rear interior area and the backs of the rear seats. The rear seats fold down perfectly flat. I was able to fit 4 snow tires and wheels in the back with ALOT of room to spare(Wipe clean with a towel when done). The interior is clean, everything is easy to use, the seating position is 3-4 inches higher than a normal car (crossover vehicle blah blah). It works, I like it.

I wanted room for my stuff when I go up north to a cabin in the winter with a little pep for ease of merging.

I got it for under 20,000 and it does 0-60 in about 7 seconds and I have averaged 26 MPG city and it should get better as I only have 800 miles. I'm gunna keep her:-)


Crazy little engine though. Here (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Cobalt_AMG/Other/2zz_ge_article.pdf) is some info if your interested. Spins to 8,200 RPM. Its like someone flips a light switch at 6,000 and it takes off.

But I still can't wait for summer so I can drive a car with no "usable" storage room that gets 15MPG. There is something about the front engine rear drive that I am attracted to. Although I can't explain it, it is performance.

I get a little depressed every winter...

Jason

Originally posted by cmc
If you're referring to the cars I think GM should start looking into selling, perhaps you ought to open your eyes the next time you're out taking a drive.

They're already selling them. You want more? 20 years ago the market was oversaturated with full-size and mid-size RWD cars. If you can think of any today at GM, let me know. Maybe CTS but not everyone can afford that.

I was watching a show on TV the other night (ALIAS) and they were storming around in a new Marauder. I hardly think things like that are coincidences.

Originally posted by Z28x
Whats wrong with HUD??? :confused:

Have you ever driven a C5 with it? it KICKS ASS!!! it's good for driving fast, you don't need to take your eyes off the road. The new Grand Pirx will let you shut off all interion lights and use just the HUD.

I like HUD, but it seems like the Grand Prix's HUD was a bit slower to react than the C5's. Has it changed since 1999?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
How about the upcoming Supercharged Impala SS?

With a styling update, (along with Monte Carlo SS) , I expect them to be pretty darn nice for FWD everyday drivers!

Yeah, but will they offer it with a stickshift? Somehow I doubt it.

Originally posted by WERM
Yeah, but will they offer it with a stickshift? Somehow I doubt it.

Ya, you are probably right with that assumption....

yeah--no 5spd for the Impala---thats why I'd take a Mazda 6---that, and I'm not a huge fan of the 3800---plus the Implala is bigger--more money.

I was hoping they'd wise up and stick a stick in the Malibu (along with some style) actually. Accord has it, Camry has it, Mazda 6 has it, Altima has it, ...

almost....the Accord 4 door V6 is auto only and the Camary V6 is auto only...so GM isn't the only dumb one.