Sources for Advanced Engine Technology

Hi Everyone,

One question and one favour if I may:

I'm looking for information (books, inet, mags, etc) on advanced
power tuning techniques and engineering.

Can any of you recommend books, or site links that would help
me learn the "root of all evil"? :)

I want to learn the "how and why" of a 7000 HP nitromethane monster engine and driveline.

I have a pretty good background in auto/tech...it's time to step
up a notch...I need to know everything about everything!


Second,
Our stupid Canadian government is trying to prohibit the
purchase of aftermarket performance parts because of the
street racing. Little do they know, the 4 banger ricers that
are racing are buying cosmetic parts (for the most part).

This law could take away my freedom to buy something as
simple as rims for my car! :(

Please take 30 seconds of your time to sign this on-line
petition against this law.

http://www.xstdesign.com

Thanks for everything!

I would start with one of these books...

"The Step-by-Step Guide to Engine Blueprinting" - Rick Voegelin
"Sunnen's Complete Cylinder Head and Engine Rebuilding Handbook" - John G. Edwards.

The first should be readily available and is pretty short, but has plenty of information. The 2nd is a Sunnen product, and the part number on my copy is A-9000 (no ISBN on this copy). I'd recommend the 2nd book over the first... but something is better than nothing. Keep in mind however.. not all of the tech information regarding methodology is going to be up to date, but basics are basics :).

After that, dig up your college Calculus/Physics/Thermodynamics textbooks, and go after something like Charles Fayette Taylor's "The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice." Volume 1 is Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, and Performance. Volume 2 is Combustion, Fuels, Materials, and Design. Each is over 500 pages & ~$50. I'd caution most to not buy both at once before knowing what you're getting into, because if you arent good with numbers, you'll stop reading around page 7.

Dunno what you're looking to do exactly (or what level you're on, so don't take offense at the mention of basics ;)), but there's all kinds of good information out there. If you want a simplified approach to turbo/supercharging, then Corky Bell has two books I think you'd like. Both are good reads that just about anyone will enjoy :)

Chuck recommended another book that I can't think of the name of right now.. but of the ones I have read or am currently reading, I like the 4 I mentioned :)

EDIT: d'oh, typo

Thanks for reply, keep them coming.

For what I want? Hmmmm...let's just say I want to know more
than John Force's crew and all the CamaroZ28.com "Advanced
Tech" Forum users combined!

Am I asking too much? :)

I have some Physics and Calculus background at the College level.
Science and Chem. at the highschool level (which pretty much
does nothing).

Auto knowlegde comes from highschool Auto class (2 years) and hanging out with people that own and build 7 to 6 second Pro Modified and Top Sportsman type engines. I'm what you call the
home hobby mechanic. Been playing with my N/A 350 for years.

I'm in awe when I hear the talk. Sometimes they'll try to explain
concepts and I can't quite understand them - that really bugs me!

That's my reason for wanting this info. I'm just a race junkie :)

Do you want references on electronic engine management technology.... e.g. EFI, emissions, etc.?

http://www.sinclair.edu/divisions/egr/aut/deg_hpp_index.htm

I'm about to call them and order the books for these courses myself. Seem to cover about everything when it comes to engines.

The books more on an engineering level are going to be a bit of a challenge. The terminology can be taxing so it's best to havea really sound foundation before venturing into thermodynamics, dynamics, kinetics and the like.
Any book you find titled something to the effect of, "Basics of internal combustion engines" or similiar, would be a good first book. The book by Richard Stone is a good intermediate level book on the basics. I'd start with that and go from there. The science and chemistry is a big part of thermodynamics, stoichiometry and studies in that area, so it is important. Any book you can find on engineering in general would be good, preferably on a more basic level at first though. Good luck.

Martin Loew

I'm in statics, dynamics, applied fluid mechanics, and the like right now. I'm positive the books in the course links i posted above have the basics in them, so pretty much anyone who has a basic education in chemistry and physics should be ok reading them.

Here are a few links i've dug up over the last few months:

http://www.wighat.com/fcr3/engine.htm
http://www.chevytalk.com/tech/101/Cam_Theory.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm
http://www.speedoptions.com/articles/2327/

The last article on cylinder heads is awsome. HTH
JB

The lingenfelter book is awesome...

check it out.. amazon.com

Yes Fred, I would like info on emissions and EFI if you could?


That list of links/books will keep me busy for a while I'm sure.
Just think, if I get stuck with any of the information or math...
I can come here and you all can do the work for me! ;)

I wish I could offer something in return, but I'm sure you boys
know more than I do.

Here is some advanced reading on programming GM CPU's:
(you may have to subscribe to get the info - it's free of course)

http://www.bb-elec.com/bb-elec/literature/manuals/mldvxxxp1.pdf

http://www.bb-elec.com/product.asp?sku=LDV100P1&dept_id=53

http://www.diy-efi.org


Thanks again!

Yes, but that cable doesnt work for programming... Yet...

:eek:

I just buzzed through some of those links...I think my IQ doubled
in a matter of seconds...

Nice reading!

For the electronics stuff, try:

"Understanding Automotive Electronics", William B. Ribbens, 1998, published by Newnes. ISBN 0-7506-7008-8

"Corvette Fuel Injection", Charles O. Probst, 2001, Bentley Publishers, ISBN 0-8376-0861-9

"Chevrolet Fuel Injection", Ben Watson, 1997, Motorbooks International, ISBN 0-7603-0422-X

There are similar publications on Ford and Bosch fuel injection systems.

Some good background info on fuels:

"High Performance Automotive Fuels & Fluids", Jeff Hartman, 1996, Motorbooks International, ISBN 0-7603-0054-2

A website with excellent FACTUAL info on gasoline:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

Originally posted by Zero_to_69
I want to learn the "how and why" of a 7000 HP nitromethane monster engine and driveline.

I have a pretty good background in auto/tech...it's time to step
up a notch...I need to know everything about everything!



That's a tall order.

As far as 6000 hp (7000 is probably overstating what's running now), after you get past building a stong enough 500 cube engine to take the power for about 650 engine revolutions before it needs a rebuild, it becomes about chemistry of the nitromethane fuel and it's various reactions. That's definitely on the outer edge of engine technology. It's closer to rocket science.

As far as Top Fuel drivelines, it's mostly about strong clutch parts and timing of the clutch application without using electronics. Apply the clutch too fast for conditions and go up in smoke; apply the clutch too slowly and lose.

There is some good reading recommended above, and some that's pretty basic. Even the "awesome" stuff isn't too far advanced, but if you understand all that it says, you're part way there. Don't necessarily believe everything you read, especially when the author explains "why". I don't necessarily agree on the reasons for 10 cylinder F-1 engines presented in one article, for example.

Unfortunately, without a background in engineering or physics ('How the World Works'), even reading the books won't help. Martin Loew, an engineering student made a good point.

There's no magic way to absorb all the knowledge. If there were, one of us would be selling it on an infomercial for 3 payments of $99.95 or some such, and be very rich.

20 years ago, Smokey Yunick wrote "Power Secrets". Read and understand it, and you'll be closer. Not everyone agrees with Smokey, but he presents a lot of information in an understandable manner.

David Vizard has written some good stuff, a lot of which is based on his 1000's of dyno tests and flow bench tests. Again, not everyone agrees with DV, but we have used much of his info and done well with it.

I applaud your enthusiasm to learn more. If you are sincere, study everything you can get your hands on, and try to sort out the BS from the good stuff. That's an on-going problem for everyone.

Good luck.

Driveline setup is a totally different ball game and I'll need
experience to play with a clutch to really understand how to
set it.

I'm lucky enough to have had the opportunity to hang out with
some experienced pit crews at the local tracks.

When the techs download the data logger and begin tweaking the clutch weights and fuel delivery systems, then pull off a tenth quicker and nail their dial-in EXEACTLY down to the 100th...my
jaw just drops!!! :bow:

There is one team out of Buffalo NY, a Pro-Mod Vette built by
G-Force Race Cars running mid 6's that I had the chance to meet one night. I was checking out their car and asked the
tech a question of why he had two injectors on the #2 intake
runner and one on all the rest.

He said, "Oh, that cylinder is running hot, so we fed it more fuel."

Naturally, I began to ask how and why that helped. So he
took my friend and I into the trailer and showed us the race data
on the computer. The EGT sensors plotted each exhaust runner temperature profile throughout the 1/4 mile pass.

It was amazing! It just so happens that I have a group of
friends who are drag race enthusiasts that have started a
business. We handed out business cards and made a
great contact!

Cars are my passion, I just want to know everything I can
about them! I also have the drive to learn because of the
automotive business I am involved with.

I'll ask this favour again for new readers:

Please visit my site and sign an on-line petition to stop a
government law that will put my business and several after-market
performance shops out of business. By this law, you could be
fined for putting rims or K&N air filters on your car!

http://www.xstdesign.com

Thanks once again for the info. I'll be purchasing a couple of
these books in the very near future.

Sincerely,
Tino D.

I've read alot of stuff over the years. I consider myself strong mathematically and am pretty sure that with a little brush-up I could work calc problems as well as I did in college. Problem with all this and especially the engineering books is not the math... but the application of the math. Engineering is all about applicatory mathematics... at least that's the way I see it. You need to know all the little 'laws' before you can really apply any of your math skill in solving a problem. So, I think Martin (who's a student of this stuff) has a good point. You need a strong foundation.
My question to you is this..... why not go back to school if you're so interested in this subject?? Not knocking you but if there's that much interest, then you're probably in the wrong field of work. Never too late to change that.
I chose computers and I love the work I do. I also love working on and learning about cars on a very technical level. I love what I do more though and that makes all the difference. If I were unhappy, I'd be going back to school and trying to move into a career I know I'd love.
Best of luck.

-Mindgame

School has crossed my mind...and is still very fresh in my head.

Long story short, I was laid-off last year, and recently found new
work in the PLC field.

If this doesn't work out, I'm considering an apprentice position for mechanic at a local GM dealer, or back to school in September
- co-op for mechanical engineering.

The biggest issue about engine technology is the demand is low
for the area I live. I have to move or commute a couple of hours
to find decent employment (Toronto area). I don' t think I can handle that at this stage.

I figure I'm getting over my head with most of this information,
but I'm determined. Not so much to become an Engineer from
studying text (which would be a stretch ), but rather take my
understanding of engines to the next level.

Maybe I'll step back a little and start playing around in this forum
for a while. This is certainly a jump higher than F-body.com or Fbody.com (with all due respect).

Guess what? You just found yourselves a new "pain in the butt"! :)

Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Millikan and Millikan. This is the absolute best book I’ve ever seen on driveline and chassis setup but I doubt that you’ll be able to buy it anywhere (couple hundred $ anyway). You’ll need access to a graduate level engineering library at a school that has a race/automotive engineering graduate program to find it, but it’s worth the effort. Anyone with a decent understanding physics (mostly mechanics) and some decent math (not much past high school/first couple of semesters calc) could learn from it. Be warned, this basically ends up being hundreds of pages which point out what a complete load most of what the aftermarket/performance world dishes out (and will make clear why the high end race stuff is nothing like the performance stuff most of us are used to seeing). It’s also the only book that I’ve ever seen that has had an accurate description of how an F-body sliding pivot TA works (and a really KILLER discussion of kinematics).

I haven’t found anything close to that level (and relative understandability) dealing specifically with IC engines, but you can find a lot of information from SAE and similar publications that the public can get at through NACA. You’ll find that most of the best automotive specific IC engine performance stuff out there is OLD, but the fact is that a lot of what we’re currently doing is not a new idea, it’s just finally become technically/economically feasible to tinker with now.

Get your hands on a Mark’s Engineering handbook. It’s sorta an encyclopedia of everything engineering and a great place to look up basic equations and how to work things out.

WRT to the more mainstream/common/layman oriented stuff:

The Lingenfelter book is a good set of basics and a nice picture book, but it really doesn’t divulge any secrets. It’s nice to have on your shelf if you plan on using factory parts to build your engine since it’s got a fairly good discussion of what’s good and bad about them.

Vizard… well, killer information, but it almost is written to give you just enough to do some cool stuff but not enough to fully implement it. Most of what he writes is very centered in the limitations of parts as they can be gotten easily, what would be done to optimize them, but then doesn’t cover how the application of the theory changes when you do optimize things. His SBC valvetrain book (I don’t remember the actual title) is one of the better ones, and will have you laughing at much of the online cam discussion… You’ve got to respect the amount of dyno testing behind his words.

The Carrol Smith, “______ To Win” books (fill in the blank with race, prepare, engineer…) are must read books for anyone intending to build or race anything. They are very road race oriented but have some awesome insights into things that aren’t often discussed like aftermarket parts (construction and design), aerodynamics and cooling, plus some great stuff on materials science, machining and application. What’s nice about these is that you can just pick up any of them and open them to a random page and learn some interesting and useful morsel, they don’t have to be read cover to cover to make sense, making them perfect reading when you’ve got a few spare moments (you know, in the “library”).

I’ve only read bits and pieces of Smokey Yunick’s stuff, but knowing any of his history I’d bet that the reason that it seems controversial is that I’m sure that he withheld just enough information… you have to know that someone who’s had his racecar disassembled during a post race inspection and then started the car and drove away with the gas tank still on the ground disconnected has something up his sleeve that the rest of us don’t know about.

Skip the book stores (lots of fluff, little real meat), find a good librarian and ask the people who know what you want to know what they have got on their desks, it will surprise you.

Originally posted by WS6 TA
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Millikan and Millikan. This is the absolute best book I’ve ever seen on driveline and chassis setup but I doubt that you’ll be able to buy it anywhere (couple hundred $ anyway.

http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=BOOK&PROD_CD=R-146

It sells for $100 to people not members of SAE. I don't have it in my library yet, but it's my next purchase.

Hum... that is substantially less then the price that I remember seeing on the onle that I borrowed. Still expensive but worth it if it's knowledge that you're looking for.

Originally posted by WS6 TA
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken. This is the absolute best book I’ve ever seen on driveline and chassis setup. It’s also the only book that I’ve ever seen that has had an accurate description of how an F-body sliding pivot TA works (and a really KILLER discussion of kinematics).

I agree totally. My copy came from Barnes & Noble. Not a currently stocked item, but some stores might have a copy. $89.00 and well worth it.

The Suspension Geometry chapter was written by Terry Satchell, formerly GM engineer, recently Winston Cup chassis engineer. If you have the background to understand the physics and math, it's a great reference and a fun read.


The Lingenfelter book is a good set of basics and a nice picture book, but it really doesn’t divulge any secrets.

Amen.

Vizard… well, killer information, but it almost is written to give you just enough to do some cool stuff but not enough to fully implement it. Most of what he writes is very centered in the limitations of parts as they can be gotten easily, what would be done to optimize them, but then doesn’t cover how the application of the theory changes when you do optimize things. His SBC valvetrain book (I don’t remember the actual title) is one of the better ones, and will have you laughing at much of the online cam discussion… You’ve got to respect the amount of dyno testing behind his words.

How to Build & Modify Chevrolet Small-Block V-8 Camshafts & Valvetrains published by Motorboks International

The Carrol Smith, “______ To Win” books (fill in the blank with race, prepare, engineer…) are must read books for anyone intending to build or race anything. They are very road race oriented but have some awesome insights into things that aren’t often discussed like aftermarket parts (construction and design), aerodynamics and cooling, plus some great stuff on materials science, machining and application. What’s nice about these is that you can just pick up any of them and open them to a random page and learn some interesting and useful morsel, they don’t have to be read cover to cover to make sense, making them perfect reading when you’ve got a few spare moments (you know, in the “library”).

Again, amen.

The one known as Screw To Win wasn't about cheating, as I hoped. It was about fasteners.

I’ve only read bits and pieces of Smokey Yunick’s stuff, but knowing any of his history I’d bet that the reason that it seems controversial is that I’m sure that he withheld just enough information

I found Smokey's book to be a lot like Vizard's; practical theory and some techniques of how to accomplish something. He does throw in a few "absolutes" which might not be, but don't we all?

We ought to get together sometime and talk, Mark.

Milliken's book is excellent. It is available new on amazon.com for $110. I also like Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by Thomas D. Gillespie. BTW: both of these are published by the SAE.

Agree that Vizard is a good starting point but that he really doesn't get into theory.

Rich Krause