What good is Opel to GM?

I've thought hard about this one... as good an asset as Opel is, GM have mismanaged Opel. Once the leading manufacturer in Europe and one of the world's leading brands, Opel is now the 4th (or 5th?) best seller in Europe.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't believe Opel is as important to GM as it once was. Sell it and sell SAAB with it (given the brands are now closely aligned)! I think Opel deserves a chance to rebuild itself but I don't think it's possible under GM's umbrella.

GM has enough leverage to use GM DAT to develop its small/medium cars and continue to sell these cars (under the Chevrolet brand) to Europe/Asia.

I know it's a big call but tough times require tough decisions. Interested in your reasoned opinion.

Opel is a profitable brand that makes some fantastic cars and gives GM a strong foot hold in Europe. Why would you want to get rid of them? Should then get rid of Holden too?

Opel is great at engineering both powertrain components and chassis structures. GMNA may not have enough people to do that in the near future. Don't force GM to rely on Daewoo.

If GM sells Opel, what does it have left?

Holden has been run into a wall. Yes, it's still somewhat profitable, but it has all but lost it's independence and with it, it's scrappy do-anything-with-nothing ability that made it a roaring success from the early 90s to the start of this decade when GM-NA exerted control over the organization.

Daewoo has turned into a chaep small car supplier for GM.

GM Latin America is successful, but is also seeing money slip into the black hole of North American operations.

I think you got it backwards.

I think the rest of GM should sell off it's North American operations.

Opel and Holden, IMO, are the prizes of GM. They have had the most success recently, and have had made cars that people want in thier respective markets.
I forget who brought it up, but if GM NA could be shut down, and they could sell Caddy and Chevy to Adam Opel, and then purchase Holden and form a smaller, stronger company. And it will be European, so Americans will think its different and sophisticated. Chevrolet will become Opel's American distribution center as well as sell Holdens through them.
Caddy will take on the same role, only now with European guidence in making luxurious first class vehicles.

Are GM that dependent on Opel? Is Opel the gold mine that it once was - NO!!! If GM is on life support, why take Opel down with it? Look at Ford, they have almost sold off all of Mazda - Ford's doing what it wouldn't normally do but doing enough to stay alive.

All I know is that GM (and Ford) need the cash. GM doesn't need other companies (or factories) that are not making money right now... and some assets need to be liquidated as part of their restructure. I think the timing is right to sell off Opel and SAAB as a package because under GM's umbrella those entities are spent.

In other words, Opel are far better off without GM right now (and perhaps vice versa) and it's obvious to me that Opel is still worth great sentimental value to the Germans.

I've thought hard about this one... as good an asset as Opel is, GM have mismanaged Opel. Once the leading manufacturer in Europe and one of the world's leading brands, Opel is now the 4th (or 5th?) best seller in Europe.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't believe Opel is as important to GM as it once was. Sell it and sell SAAB with it (given the brands are now closely aligned)! I think Opel deserves a chance to rebuild itself but I don't think it's possible under GM's umbrella.

GM has enough leverage to use GM DAT to develop its small/medium cars and continue to sell these cars (under the Chevrolet brand) to Europe/Asia.

I know it's a big call but tough times require tough decisions. Interested in your reasoned opinion.

Are GM that dependent on Opel? Is Opel the gold mine that it once was - NO!!! If GM is on life support, why take Opel down with it? Look at Ford, they have almost sold off all of Mazda - Ford's doing what it wouldn't normally do but doing enough to stay alive.

All I know is that GM (and Ford) need the cash. GM doesn't need other companies (or factories) that are not making money right now... and some assets need to be liquidated as part of their restructure. I think the timing is right to sell off Opel and SAAB as a package because under GM's umbrella those entities are spent.

In other words, Opel are far better off without GM right now (and perhaps vice versa) and it's obvious to me that Opel is still worth great sentimental value to the Germans.

Opel makes money for GM. GM isn't making money. Why would they want to sell? It is still 4th or 5th best in Europe, which is still pretty healthy.

The only offer I know on Opel was something like 650 million cash and a 350 million loan. That is nothing compared to what GM needs, and no one wants to buy Saab. The swedish Gov't wants Saab to stay, but they don't want to help GM. That brand is also on the chopping block.

Ford plans to buy back what is sold off in Mazda if it can get healthy again, but Ford isn't in as bad a shape money wise. They can sell Mazda to get by with it.

If you look at what is coming out of Opel these days, it is great looking vehicles. I think the key to GM's survival is actually taking Opel cars world wide. They should be in the North America and China under Buick. Holden and Opel are already close for the Aust and NZ market.

Kick Saab to the curb. Keep Opel.

I don't understand why Saab wasn't sold back to the Swedes LONG ago, and why GM didn't start crushing foreign competition with its own foreign products from Opel.

To kill Opel? No. GM has few moneymakers to shake these days, and it still does okay.

Opel makes money for GM.

No they don't.

As I said, GM is destroying Opel by having Chevrolet sell cars in Opel's home market and spending tons of money trying to revive SAAB... all at the expense of Opel. I fail to see what GM's motives were by doing this?

GM is killing Opel. I just don't want Opel to disappear if GM goes under. So it might be wise to sell it while its still worth a dime.

No they don't.

As I said, GM is destroying Opel by having Chevrolet sell cars in Opel's home market and spending tons of money trying to revive SAAB... all at the expense of Opel. I fail to see what GM's motives were by doing this?

GM is killing Opel. I just don't want Opel to disappear if GM goes under. So it might be wise to sell it while its still worth a dime.

Opel might not make any money for GM. It seems hard to find which brands make money for GM. From GM's standpoint, what would selling Opel solve? In this market, no one is going to offer full price for what Opel is worth. I actually found the offer that was made for Opel. It was for 350 million in cash and 950 million in loans. How is that anywhere close to what it needs to be for that brand?

Part of GM's turnaround plan is to have Opel products in the US under Buick. Since Opel has moved upmarket, it makes sense for it to be Buick in the US.


I don't want to Chevy or Cadillac die. I don't think GM will be selling those off either anytime soon.

Are GM that dependent on Opel? Is Opel the gold mine that it once was - NO!!! If GM is on life support, why take Opel down with it? Look at Ford, they have almost sold off all of Mazda - Ford's doing what it wouldn't normally do but doing enough to stay alive.

All I know is that GM (and Ford) need the cash. GM doesn't need other companies (or factories) that are not making money right now... and some assets need to be liquidated as part of their restructure. I think the timing is right to sell off Opel and SAAB as a package because under GM's umbrella those entities are spent.

In other words, Opel are far better off without GM right now (and perhaps vice versa) and it's obvious to me that Opel is still worth great sentimental value to the Germans.

Not sure I'm following you on this.

Opel has control over GM's Delta and Espilon development, so Opel practically controls the heart of GM's high volume sellers globally. It's alot more than a company with "sentimental value to the Germans".

GM is in fact looking to get rid of SAAB unless the Swedish government steps in with a loan package of some sort big enough to keep it operating.

GM selling Opel is like Ford selling Ford of Europe. Both are money makers, both are supplying cash to the company, and even more important, both are the heart and lungs of the vehicles we are getting here in the US, both currently and in the future.

Opel is an integral part of GM. There appear to be some individuals, motivated by nationalism, trying to use this crisis as reason to spin off Opel into a "German" company.

Opel needs to be part of GM as much as GM needs Opel to be part of it.

BTW, wasn't it just afew years ago when GME was on the verge of death and GMNA had to finance it's recovery? How soon we forget.

Opel has control over GM's Delta and Espilon development, so Opel practically controls the heart of GM's high volume sellers globally. It's alot more than a company with "sentimental value to the Germans".



There's no reason why the two entities cannot share technology/platforms after dissolving into separate companies.

Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda and Ford are living proof of this.

And I don't understand the comments that Opel is making money for GM? :think:

There's no reason why the two entities cannot share technology/platforms after dissolving into separate companies.

Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda and Ford are living proof of this.

And I don't understand the comments that Opel is making money for GM? :think:

Since Epsilon is being used world wide and delta is supposed to be the next greatest thing for GM in small cars, not all of the profits might show up on the balance sheet.

Jag, Volvo, and Mazda were only recently let go. It would be interesting to see how that path continues. There isn't enough data yet to prove your point there to me.

But, if GM were to spinoff/sell Opel, the buyer would have GM by the balls. Opel is doing the development of Epsilon and Delta. GM is going to use those platforms in most brands for large selling sedans. If Opel's buyer wanted to screw GM, GM would have to pay again to develop a new platform, it would simply be using MORE money than what Opel was sold for.

I think you are letting your personal feelings for a brand get in the way of what is the best for GM, which is what GM is concerned with. If GM dies completely, there will be some people looking to pick up components at dirt cheap prices. Opel might not be gone even if GM does fail.

I think you are letting your personal feelings for a brand get in the way of what is the best for GM, which is what GM is concerned with. If GM dies completely, there will be some people looking to pick up components at dirt cheap prices. Opel might not be gone even if GM does fail.

Not at all. My heart is all GM, not necessarily Opel. :)

However, your points are noted. ;)

As I've said, I've been giving it a lot of thought without being emotional about it. I love what Opel have done for GM... let's not forget a time when Opel was at least as strong as VW in Europe. But GM is like a sick parent these days. It can't even look after itself in NA let alone the brand with the most potential (yes, Opel). Note: I said potential. Opel were strong when GM was making money...

There is no doubt in my mind that Opel's poor performances have been due to GM's poor management over the past 2 decades. Robbing Peter to pay Paul does not sound like sound management to me. While Opel is worth something of value today, it just might be worthwhile for GM to have a look at selling off Opel (IMO). :( I think what Ford has done with it's sell offs is a good business decision. If the environment was more favorable, I doubt that Ford would make the same moves.

If emotion came into play, personally, I would never give up Opel!

A case in point...


Open letter from GM’s Union Leaders:

The current restructuring plan for General Motors Europe and its brands and companies is not viable. It will finish off the European operations and implies several risks of litigation for the corporation.

The spin-off of Opel/Vauxhall as outlined above and the spin-off of Saab is the only reasonable and feasible option for General Motors which would not destroy the European operations and its European assets and could avoid law suits.

The spin-offs would exclude any further financial risk for General Motors. The deal could be structured in a way to provide GM with important access to technology developed at the European Engineering Centers which General Motors desperately needs to stay alive.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-euro-unions-case-for-an-opelvauxhall-spin-off/

If I read that same letter, I don't see why anyone would really want to buy Opel. GM is having to cut production because no one is buying cars. Besides, this is a slanted letter. Automotive unions writing a letter like this is pretty ridiculous. They are looking to save their jobs, but I am not sure automotive unions are the people you should be talking to for actually running a business. Quotes like,

The only option left would be that GME/Opel/Vauxhall asks for rescue-aid instead of loans guaranteed by European governments. Then it must cut capacity by 30%. No company has ever survived this large of a reduction.


So, why would anyone want to buy Opel at this point? Sounds like it would die anyway. There have been no takers for Saab. The only offer for GM for Opel was too small for it to matter. I don't see how spinning off/selling this brand would help. It actually sells cars. It would like be asking GM to spinoff Chevy. It takes a huge amount of money and effort to get into a market. This would be GM essentially exiting several markets.

GM's management has caused a lot of problems. I don't see how selling/spinning off Opel would help GM survive.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f16/autonews-gm-ready-give-up-control-opel-european-operations-almost-out-cash-76239/

So what do people think now about GM's relationship with Opel? ;)

It appears that GM have robbed Peter to pay Paul... cross Peter and make that both Opel and Holden.

Tough call- Opel has global recognition as a builder of good cars, good German engineering- You would have hoped that GM could have learned to build nice small cars like the Kadett GT and Rallye that they were importing from Opel in the late 1960's and early 1970's Those cars were light-years ahead of the citations and vegas that GM was foisting on the public-

If they keep Opel they can sell cars in Europe without import tariffs, might be important for long term viability to compete in the global market- I would hate to see Opel go the route of Triumph or many other manufacturers- hard to believe-

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f16/autonews-gm-ready-give-up-control-opel-european-operations-almost-out-cash-76239/

So what do people think now about GM's relationship with Opel? ;)

It appears that GM have robbed Peter to pay Paul... cross Peter and make that both Opel and Holden.

Because GM has a long history of making great long term moves...

GM funded Europe for a long time. Now, no one at GM is making money. This reminds me of when GM started selling off parts of GMAC. That was a great move too. It won't matter anyway if no one bites. I don't think this is a company that can help with 3 billion dollars right now in Europe that would be willing to invest in a car company.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f16/autonews-gm-ready-give-up-control-opel-european-operations-almost-out-cash-76239/

So what do people think now about GM's relationship with Opel? ;)

It appears that GM have robbed Peter to pay Paul... cross Peter and make that both Opel and Holden.


Your header says it all : European operations ALMOST out of cash!

GM North America as been COMPLETLY out of cash since the end of December, and has been operating with US Taxpayer money ever since. ;)