GM wants 16.6 billion more, on top of the 13.4 billion.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/10464414/1/gm-seeks-166-billion-more-from-us.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

My my my

Sooooooooo, that's the plan................



Also, Saturn is dead by 2011 and Pontiac goes on it's death walk.

Actually, they're only asking for an additional $4.5B now, and possibly up to $30B total by 2011 if the economy continues to slide. Hummer and Saab are also mentioned with Saturn in the spin-off or close shop by 2011 scenario.

General Motors (NYSE: GM) submitted its viability plan to the U.S. Treasury Department, boosting its loan request by another $4.5 billion, to $22.5 billion. GM said if a new, even lower downside scenario occurs it would need an additional $7.5 billion, or a total of $30 billion by 2011.

General Motors also said it considered, rejected 3 bankruptcy scenarios as part of the plan.

GM will cut 47,000 jobs, 10,000 salaried 37,000 hourly, by year end and close five additional U.S. factories.

General Motors will focus its resources primarily on its core brands: Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC. Hummer and Saab, are subject to 'strategic reviews', including their potential sale. A Hummer sale of phase out decision will be made in Q1, with final resolution for both Hummer and Saab no later than 2010. Saturn will remain in operations through the end of the planned life cycle for all Saturn products (2010-2011). In the interim, should Saturn retailer as a group or other investors present a plan that would allow a spin off or sale of Saturn Distribution Corp, GM would be open to any such possibility.

GM dealerships to be cut by a further 25% over the next 4 years.

Actually, they're only asking for an additional $4.5B now, and possibly up to $30B total by 2011 if the economy continues to slide.

That's not what my article said, but I like GM's version better.

Conflicting news on Saturn.

This story has Saturn dealers spinning off into a separate company:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123491214914203599.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Meanwhile this (and others) suggest Saturn is dead:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=ACBJ&date=20090216&id=9613453

http://jalopnik.com/5155377/gm-to-officially-kill-saturn-brand-most-of-pontiac

Thoughts?

I agree Saturn should be jettisoned before Pontiac.

I say better to ask for everything it takes to finish the job than to keep cominig back and asking for $4-5 billion at a time. The situation is ugly and getting worse but lay it all on the table and see how much Congress is interested in completing the task and getting the loan back.
Nobody believed that $18B was going to fix everything at GM not with them buring $1B+ away every month at these sales levels.
At the current loan price they can still claim the impact on the economy is much worse and more expensive than the loan value. But their margin is getting thin.

Conflicting news on Saturn.

This story has Saturn dealers spinning off into a separate company:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123491214914203599.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Meanwhile this (and others) suggest Saturn is dead:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=ACBJ&date=20090216&id=9613453

http://jalopnik.com/5155377/gm-to-officially-kill-saturn-brand-most-of-pontiac

Thoughts?

Saturn is dead to GM. Once the current products run their course, that'll be that. Now IF the dealers want to organize themselves into a spin off company, GM is all ears. Actually if the dealers can get creative, that could get interesting...

The media is going to crucify GM for this. They will make it seem like GM is asking for hundreds of billions and the public is going to be getting their pitchforks ready

Saturn is dead to GM. Once the current products run their course, that'll be that. Now IF the dealers want to organize themselves into a spin off company, GM is all ears. Actually if the dealers can get creative, that could get interesting...

It sounds like the Saturn dealers should go talking to Renault and/or Fiat. Aren't both interested in coming back to the States?

It sounds like the Saturn dealers should go talking to Renault and/or Fiat. Aren't both interested in coming back to the States?

Fiat too! :)

What about the Chinese? Surely Saturn would have good equity value to those companies?

It sounds like the Saturn dealers should go talking to Renault and/or Fiat. Aren't both interested in coming back to the States?Fiat is already in bed with Chrysler. ;)

So does the possible new Saturn Group, equal out to an organization that would be selling any "GM branded car" so they could sell chevy's, GMC, etc labelled as GM cars??

they just need to let them fail... it's ****ing stupid--

I am tired of this. So they want the government to pay them to get even smaller and lay more people off?

The whole reason GM is here was because they gutted their brands. Remember 3 years ago...it was "We will just replace 5 so so models with 3 really good ones, and sell the same amount of cars!" Guess what it failed...and took GM's second best selling car line with it (Pontiac).

Saturn worked when it was marketed as a seperate company..it fails because people now associate it with GM...and in most peoples eyes GM=Fail. Saturn should be spun into it's own company with the stock given to the GM shareholders who are about to be hosed.

What's the worst is that this means that if GM sticks around we are gonna be stuck with boring appliances for the next 10-15 years.

Maybe this would be a good time to ditch the little GM chicklet badges. lol

My biggest fear about all this loan business is that the govmnt will impose their will on product development, and GM won't make cars I want to buy anymore.

Fiat is already in bed with Chrysler. ;)

True for manufacturing and platform sharing but will Fiat or any of its brands be sold on a Chrysler lot? A free standing series of dealerships that are relatively up to date makes for a better start than being sold along side a Caliber or Compass.

Here's the plan. Imagine being a small business and going to the bank for a loan with this plan.



http://www.treas.gov/initiatives/eesa/agreements/auto-reports/GMRestructuringPlan.pdf

Maybe this would be a good time to ditch the little GM chicklet badges. lol

My biggest fear about all this loan business is that the govmnt will impose their will on product development, and GM won't make cars I want to buy anymore.

GM already has in the plan that all their new introductions for the next 5 YEARS will be either fuel efficiant vehicles or crossovers.

If the Camaro was 6-9 months later I really think it would have gotten axed too.

When will they realize this does not work...

4.1 Competitive Product Mix and Cost Structure—General Motors Restructuring Plan
calls for rationalizing vehicle sales and marketing operations in the United States through
reducing brands, nameplates and retail outlets. This will help to concentrate product
development resources on ―fewer, better‖ entries, and generate more competitive dealer
economics.

When will they relaize this does not work...

Brandon, step away from the computer and take a few deep breaths. Ok you back, do you feel better now, OK lets begin.

GM is trying to reduce it's overhead structural costs. Which will allow more money to be spent producing high quality products that will all be profitable. This is opposed to concentrating on keeping the plants running by selling low margin or negative margin vehicles. GM has for years tried to make a profit simply on volume without realizing that volume doesn't mean squat if 1. you have huge fixed costs and 2. you don't make squat on your vehicles.

For to long they depended on the golden goose fullsize truck and SUV market to keep them afloat while they threw money on the hoods of Cavaliers, Sunfires, Malibus, Impalas, Grand Prixs, and Grand Ams at the retail level. When you think about how much was lost selling these same models to fleets at a loss simply because it cost to much to shut down the plants and send the workers home or to much to slow down the line it should make you furious that anyone with that kind of thinking would be in charge of the jobs of literally hundreds of thousands directly, and possibly millions by extension.

Simply put GM did the same thing for decades trying to get a different result and it didn't work (what Albert Einstein called insanity). GM needs a fundamental shift in focus and ideas to even possibly become relevant in the market, otherwise that Chapter 11 is inevitable.

GM is trying to reduce it's overhead structural costs. Which will allow more money to be spent producing high quality products that will all be profitable. This is opposed to concentrating on keeping the plants running by selling low margin or negative margin vehicles. .

That's exactly right. GM needs to size itself to make a profit on 60% of it's traditional volume. That means concentrating on polishing and marketing fewer models - BUT AT A PROFIT - rather than buttloads of vehicles at a loss.

The problem is...the less vehicles you make...the less money you make...and less money you have to fund new vehicles. You basically starve yourself to nothing.

The only way GM can be profitable and sustainable at 60% less volume then 2000 is if someone hit the magic reset button and all their overhead, debt, and access capacity disappeared. That is not gonna happen with the way things look now.

At some point you have to run people out of business rather than just try and stay in business.




Brandon, step away from the computer and take a few deep breaths. Ok you back, do you feel better now, OK lets begin.

GM is trying to reduce it's overhead structural costs. Which will allow more money to be spent producing high quality products that will all be profitable. This is opposed to concentrating on keeping the plants running by selling low margin or negative margin vehicles. GM has for years tried to make a profit simply on volume without realizing that volume doesn't mean squat if 1. you have huge fixed costs and 2. you don't make squat on your vehicles.

For to long they depended on the golden goose fullsize truck and SUV market to keep them afloat while they threw money on the hoods of Cavaliers, Sunfires, Malibus, Impalas, Grand Prixs, and Grand Ams at the retail level. When you think about how much was lost selling these same models to fleets at a loss simply because it cost to much to shut down the plants and send the workers home or to much to slow down the line it should make you furious that anyone with that kind of thinking would be in charge of the jobs of literally hundreds of thousands directly, and possibly millions by extension.

Simply put GM did the same thing for decades trying to get a different result and it didn't work (what Albert Einstein called insanity). GM needs a fundamental shift in focus and ideas to even possibly become relevant in the market, otherwise that Chapter 11 is inevitable.

That's exactly right. GM needs to size itself to make a profit on 60% of it's traditional volume. That means concentrating on polishing and marketing fewer models - BUT AT A PROFIT - rather than buttloads of vehicles at a loss.

The only way GM can be profitable and sustainable at 60% less volume then 2000 is if someone hit the magic reset button and all their overhead, debt, and access capacity disappeared. That is not gonna happen with the way things look now.



Killing overhead and excess capacity seem pretty easy. The debt though........

they just need to let them fail... it's ****ing stupid--



I am tired of this. So they want the government to pay them to get even smaller and lay more people off?

The whole reason GM is here was because they gutted their brands. Remember 3 years ago...it was "We will just replace 5 so so models with 3 really good ones, and sell the same amount of cars!" Guess what it failed...and took GM's second best selling car line with it (Pontiac).

Saturn worked when it was marketed as a seperate company..it fails because people now associate it with GM...and in most peoples eyes GM=Fail. Saturn should be spun into it's own company with the stock given to the GM shareholders who are about to be hosed.

What's the worst is that this means that if GM sticks around we are gonna be stuck with boring appliances for the next 10-15 years.

Anyone who knows me knows that I would rather stick forks in my eyes than see GM fail and take the economy with it, but I have to agree with Brandon. This is getting pretty ridiculous.

We have a company that is so far gone that it needs this much money, and STILL doesn't have it's bureaucracy fixed, serious questions have to be asked this round.

Ford is clawing tooth and nail to avoid any taxpayer money, meanwhile saving Chrysler is is an outright taxpayer bargain.

I'm asking alot of serious questions about my thoughts about GM right now..... and I'm very afraid that I'm getting uncomfortably close to "06GTOm6's" view.

I don't want to go there...and trust me, I really, really hope that something happens at GM really soon to restore some faith in the brand that my diseased dad swore by.... but as Brandon said, this is starting to get pretty frigging stupid.

Yes, I'm losing alot of faith lately.


Maybe this would be a good time to ditch the little GM chicklet badges. lol

My biggest fear about all this loan business is that the govmnt will impose their will on product development, and GM won't make cars I want to buy anymore.

Oh for God's sake..... lets get with reality!!!

Lets loose the fantasy "government is the root of all evil" BS for a moment and come down to the real world long enough to realize, that GM screwed themselves over, or no one will loan them money but the government . For whatever reasons GM made the decisions they did the past decade, it has resulted in billions in losses, 90%+ drop in stock value, wasting the talent and ideas in that Lutz, and a continuation of me-too, knee-jerk product development.

Instead of thinking about GM "won't make the cars "YOU want", how abou GM making the cars that will keep the General Motors Corperation ALIVE beyond this year?!!

GM has gotten themselves into a position where it is costing US taxpayers
THIRTY FRIGGING BILLION DOLLARS just to survive!!!!

This is the time to end being blinded and wrapped up so much in ideology that realize the fact that this is not only a lot of money, but things are so bad with this company that it actually NEEDS to be taken over by the Federal government, the entire board of directors needs to be fired, a new board needs to be assigned and paid strictly in stock so that to get their benefits, they must actually run the company profitably.

I know that things are bad in the auto world right now, but we are talking a company that has had the same chances the past decade as everyone else... from Toyota to Ford. General Motors has far more resources available than anyone else on the planet, and has a presence in almost as many countries as dirt.

GM Latin America, GM-Holden in Australia, and GM Europe were all profitable operation in and of themselves..... but now they are at high risk of being wiped out because GM-North America not only sucks up the resources of General Motor's North America operations, but has managed to drain the rest of GM's profitable global empire as well.

If there is anyone who would be better off by government intervention, I am begining to believe that GM by far ranks right up there with AIG and some of those other Wall Street financial brain trusts that got us into this economic mess.

I think of all the very good people I personally know who work for and believe in General Motors, and even in the darkest days bleed GM blue. The thought that a company can be run so poorly that it has the potential of wrecking or at least adversely affecting the lives of these people I know is to be generous, maddening.

I certainly don't want GM to fail. But $30,000,000,000 is a massive amount of money for taxpayers to be dishing out to a car company.... and no one at GM is saying that will be the end of it.

Car sales have been moving at near record amounts the past number of years. GM still lost money. Is it logical to think GM will make money selling 1/3 to 1/2 the number of vehicles?

Sorry for the rant and strong reaction.... I simply didn't expect to read that GM... a company that only weeks ago said they might not need the full approved federal loan amount.... is going to need even more additional money than was initially approved.

It took me for a wallop!

We have not even gotten into how GM sold off all of it's diversifed business to bring cash in. Hughes, EDS etc. At this point I would rather be in the satelitte TV business than the car business.

I now really think Wagoner needs to go. My main reason is that it is obvious GM had no idea or plan how it would weather more than a few slightly below average quarters. For a company to be sitting on $25B in cash around this time next year, and need $30B in government money a year later in simily unbelivable. I mean..how do you manage your business that badly that a few terrible quarters blows that many billions. Wagoner needs to go.

Killing overhead and excess capacity seem pretty easy. The debt though........

The problem is..it costs money to shrink. Everytime you buy someone out...they just make the retirement benefits issue that much bigger.

My thing is...GM is paying for way more people who are not working than those that actually are because of layoffs, buy outs and early retirements. I dunno about you...but if I am gonna pay someone whether they work, or don't work..I would rather pay them to design and build product I may be able to sell vs. having them sit at home and do nothing. Labor after all is the truely expensive part of building a car.

I guess what I am saying is...with all the buy outs and early retirements of the last 20 years...GM has just went from paying people to design and make something of value to paying them to sit at home. I am sure GM has enough engineers who are sitting home collecting early retirement check to design a whole new Pontiac lineup.

We have not even gotten into how GM sold off all of it's diversifed business to bring cash in. Hughes, EDS etc. At this point I would rather be in the satelitte TV business than the car business.

I now really think Wagoner needs to go. My main reason is that it is obvious GM had no idea or plan how it would weather more than a few slightly below average quarters. For a company to be sitting on $25B in cash around this time next year, and need $30B in government money a year later in simily unbelivable. I mean..how do you manage your business that badly that a few terrible quarters blows that many billions. Wagoner needs to go.

I regretfully have to agree with all your points, Branden.

This is the last straw that potentially brings down the entire house.


If this is playing out this disasterous with strong supporters of the US auto industry... and GM... one simply can not imagine how much of a PR disaster this is going to be when it finally settles into the consciousness of the general public.

I never thought I'd ever say this about the guy that had the clear insight to bring in Bob Lutz to get product together, and pull in many dis-satisfied and highly talented people from Chrysler and other car companies. But (and I say this with EXTREME regret and sadness), Wagoner has to go.... AND.. so does the entire GM board of directors...AND all senior management!!

The problem at GM is it's management bureaucracy. It's had years to change. It's had many, many warnings (the collapse of the truck & SUV market back in 2004, anyone?) and enough time to change directions. They have had a huge opportunity to invest back into cars instead of 5 years of footdragging. GM is incapable of introducing a line of cars anymore (they once brought out entire multidivision lines of cars, now they are incapable of bringing out a Pontiac and Chevrolet model of the same architecture at the same time instead of 3 or 4 years later).

It's a shame that the one car that they did right, went through the approval process the way it was supposed to, got developed as quick as it should have, and has the quality that should be the standard, is the one car that not only would GM never ever would have approved under normal channels, but had the rest of it's family cancelled.

Camaro may be the last best car the current General Motors ever created.

And the fact that under even current approval processes would not have seen the light of day (despite the fact that similar cars easily moved through it's smaller and formerly more cash strapped competitors) is telling about the state of the General Motors Corperation.

It's extremely disturbing.

If you'll recall G.M.'s response to the 2004 truck & suv collapse was to pull all of the development money from the car line & put it all into a crash progam to speed up the introduction of the GMT-900's. They apparently thought they were losing sales because the public had gotten tired of the GMT-800's.

they just need to let them fail... it's ****ing stupid--
Exactly, this is not going to work! Sales are still nosediving, i'm tired of this stupid crap already. Throwing money into a sinking company isn't going to help if no one is buying their product.

Ugh at the very least wagner needs to go, it seems like if your in upper management of a company it's almost impossible to get fired. Negative 67 billion dollars isn't enough to get you a pink slip?

"The role the auto industry plays, it's a powerful job creator"

And GM is laying off 19% of its workforce. Oh the irony.

Oh for God's sake..... lets get with reality!!!

Lets loose the fantasy "government is the root of all evil" BS for a moment and come down to the real world long enough to realize, that GM screwed themselves over, or no one will loan them money but the government . For whatever reasons GM made the decisions they did the past decade, it has resulted in billions in losses, 90%+ drop in stock value, wasting the talent and ideas in that Lutz, and a continuation of me-too, knee-jerk product development.
!

Don't whine, deal w/ it. :)

Hey now, just for the record, this was the answer I got when I proposed it to a higher up GM guy! He/she said that the deeper in they get w/ the government loans, the less they will be able to develop product that may run contrary to the party lines interests, even if said products are profitable! So their point was, it wasn't about doing what makes the most proft (which it would seem GM needs more than anything right now), it's about making big brother happy. Their words, not mine. I hope they're wrong.

Sorry for the rant and strong reaction.... I simply didn't expect to read that GM... a company that only weeks ago said they might not need the full approved federal loan amount.... is going to need even more additional money than was initially approved.

It took me for a wallop!

Really? I mean... seriously?? You couldn't read between the lines? You thought they would be able to turn it around in two months when they couldn't turn it around in 15 years?

Its good to see that people are finally starting to see how absolutely ridiculous this has become. It won't stop unless WE stop it.

I have to admit that I am far less optimistic about GM's survival today, than I was a few months ago. The selfish die-hard Chevy/Camaro enthusiast in me wants to see GM survive just long enough for me to get my 2010 Camaro, and then their future be damned for years of excess and foolish business practices. The patriot in me wants to see GM survive, because I am smart enough to realize that should GM fail and close, it will collapse the entire US auto industry and in less than 10-years time we will all be buying vehicles produced mostly in China. The realist in me hopes that in spite of GM's stupidity, at least maybe Ford or Chrysler will survive, otherwise my next new car purchase is going to be a Nissan. :p

Don't whine, deal w/ it. :)

Hey now, just for the record, this was the answer I got when I proposed it to a higher up GM guy! He/she said that the deeper in they get w/ the government loans, the less they will be able to develop product that may run contrary to the party lines interests, even if said products are profitable! So their point was, it wasn't about doing what makes the most proft (which it would seem GM needs more than anything right now), it's about making big brother happy. Their words, not mine. I hope they're wrong.

I was a bit cranky last night. :)

Here's my morning, post coffee, clear eyed view.

Yes, it took years for GM to get into this pickle. No company as large as GM gets into this type of situation over a couple of bad products, or a couple of bad decisions. Therefore, there is something wrong at GM's core. The core of GM is it's management operations. The way it does business.

The cure for it isn't simply piling on endless additional responsibility on everyone from the engineers (while getting rid of tons of them) to the auto show manager (where each brand or couple of brands had their own guy), or shutting off escalators after hours or removing every other lightbulb from the plant floor. The cure is completely revolutionizing the way GM thinks, and the way it does products. It's my opinion that Bob Lutz quit simply because GM wore him out simply because he was pushing for better interiors and better designs... something that should have been elementry.

I know quite a few people who work at GM, and my dad all but swore by GM. GM has a long and storied history, and GM finally had cars in the pipeline that were worth buying over imports. The irony is that the guy they hired to revise product's plans that never happened would have made GM a key competitor today, the car that's generating the most press (without GM putting it in every official shot and forcing it on the public) is a car that languished in GM's bureacracy for over a decade, and would have never been produced if it went through normal GM channels.

GM can't be allowed to fail, which is a major problem because it seems that GM's management seems almost purposely driving it into a wall. The sad thing is, these MBAs don't seem to know any better.

Why decimate your 2nd biggest US car division (out of 5) down to where it is a niche division of 1 or 2 extremely low volume models, while save a division that hasn't recovered any volume in a decade? Why pour massive resources into a vehicle set up to sell only 10K it's 1st year, and likely no more than double that number each successive year, all at a loss when you need to speed up getting cars to market that do make money and sell in large volume?

Can someone remind me what Chevrolet has on the burner as far as new models for mainstream cars? Is the Malibu going to have to carry the wieght for a while? Fords got the new Taurus and Chrysler has the new 300's and 200's coming out. Its just the Spark, Cruze, and Malibu for Chevy for a while, right? That model lineup just doesn't seem to have much continuity and I dont see it lighting up the sales charts enough to drag them out of this mess.

Can someone remind me what Chevrolet has on the burner as far as new models for mainstream cars? Is the Malibu going to have to carry the wieght for a while? Fords got the new Taurus and Chrysler has the new 300's and 200's coming out. Its just the Spark, Cruze, and Malibu for Chevy for a while, right? That model lineup just doesn't seem to have much continuity and I dont see it lighting up the sales charts enough to drag them out of this mess.

There's possibly the Orlando, too. I don't think that the Spark has actually been greenlit for the U.S., has it?

Is Chrysler really going to have the 200 on the market anytime soon? I thought it was more or less a RWD design study for a Sebring update. The next 300 is just a facelift.

As far as Ford goes, I think GM has more to fear from the new Fusion than the Taurus. The Taurus is nice, but it's a true flagship sedan. Chevy sadly doesn't really have an equivalent right now.

There's possibly the Orlando, too. I don't think that the Spark has actually been greenlit for the U.S., has it?

Is Chrysler really going to have the 200 on the market anytime soon? I thought it was more or less a RWD design study for a Sebring update. The next 300 is just a facelift.

As far as Ford goes, I think GM has more to fear from the new Fusion than the Taurus. The Taurus is nice, but it's a true flagship sedan. Chevy sadly doesn't really have an equivalent right now.

The Sebring is called the 200 in some markets perhaps the Sebring name is going away.

If you'll recall G.M.'s response to the 2004 truck & suv collapse was to pull all of the development money from the car line & put it all into a crash progam to speed up the introduction of the GMT-900's. They apparently thought they were losing sales because the public had gotten tired of the GMT-800's.


True.

I thought the more recent nail in the coffin was whoring hybrid Tahoes and Caddy SUVs with MSRPs of $51,000 on up in the current economy.

No offense, but that in itself wasn't saving GM.