Looking into my Crystal Ball..how long till Buick becomes the next Old's

So..here is what the crystal ball is telling me...

Buick is going to fail..much like Old's and Saturn have failed in the role of import fighter. Like Old's...no matter how great the car is...you will not get import buyers in a Buick showroom. Going a step further..by taking away most of Pontiac's cars...you are gonna kill any youthfull traffic at BPG dealerships at all. Also, to make Buick an import fighter, you will have to take away the things that traditional Buick customers like (bench seats, column shifters and so forth). The same thing happened to Old's..all the changes made a traditional Old's buyer look elswhere...while the Old's name was so tarnished, new buyers would not give it a chance.

just a thought...

So..here is what the crystal ball is telling me...

Buick is going to fail..much like Old's and Saturn have failed in the role of import fighter. Like Old's...no matter how great the car is...you will not get import buyers in a Buick showroom.
I am pretty sure the Enclave has something like 60% the people buying them trading in or currently owning an import.
Going a step further..by taking away most of Pontiac's cars...you are gonna kill any youthfull traffic at BPG dealerships at all.
Pontiac isn't going away. Pontiac will have it's models pared down as Buick picks up the replacements. This won't be an overnight thing nor will it be a 1:1 volume trade but on the retail level Buick can easily make up for Pontiac's volume drop. The youth traffic will come IF the right models are around (Opel's Astra, Solstice, G8 if you ask me).
Also, to make Buick an import fighter, you will have to take away the things that traditional Buick customers like (bench seats, column shifters and so forth). The same thing happened to Old's..all the changes made a traditional Old's buyer look elswhere...while the Old's name was so tarnished, new buyers would not give it a chance.

just a thought...
What Buicks can you purchase with a bench seat and column shifter right now? None that I know of.
Listen there isn't another vehicle for sale on the planet right now (except maybe an Impala) that has a bench seat and column shifter so where are these buyers going to go? Also in case you haven't notice buyers are expecting a lot more gadgets in their cars now than they ever have, and buyers want these features to not feel 'left behind.'

Buick has something that Pontiac doesn't: a blank slate. It isn't the boy racer division with wings and cladding. It isn't the top of the line GM, it isn't the volume division. Ask most people what Buick is and they will likely mention Tiger Woods or have no idea.

That is Buick's edge. They CAN become the import brand that Saturn just couldn't. They CAN do what Olds couldn't because their products will have volume on their side (even if it is from another country) instead of being so unique they just weren't profitable.

With the right product mix from Opel and Buick China, Buick US can become VERY relevant very quickly. Also a great marketing campaign is essential, something GM isn't known for (the Caddy that Zigs ring a bell?).

Seriously it might be as soon as this summer.

Buick will stay around now that it will be getting Opel cars and is one on the best selling brands in China. No Saab or Saturn and a smaller Pontiac means there is more room for Buick.

I dunno, the Buick of 10 years ago should have been killed instead of Oldsmobile, but OLDsmobile had the hangup of having OLD in it's name (all due respects to Mr. Olds).

The Buick of today, escpecially with the upcoming LaCrosse replacing the old one, really has a decent, competative lineup in the near-lux market segment.

Yes, there are perception barriers to overcome, but what domestic brand doesn't have that problem right now?

I have to honestly say, that once the new LaCrosse comes out, I would strongly consider all 3 of Buick's offerings.

Buick is not going anywhere... it might not sell super well here but it is killing in china which is the #1 car market right now...

I don't think it will.

I think Buick has a decent shot this time via increased marketing $$$ and a premium image that not even Oldsmobile enjoyed (much less Saturn)

Buick is not going anywhere... it might not sell super well here but it is killing in china which is the #1 car market right now...


Right you are.:yes:

I think folks will see more great stuff offered at Buick.

There's also some room for a performance sedan from Buick if they choose to add one. Buick has a heritage in racing, although it's been some years ago. The Chevrolet brothers made themselves quite famous running in Buicks.

I think the door for adding that type vehicle is quite possibile down the road.
GN, GNX, GSX... No negative baggage there. The Grand Nationals woke up the floor traffic at Buick years back. They brought a younger buyer who had no issues with the brand as the product they wanted delivered the goods.

Let's not forget that it wasn't all that long ago that many car enthusiast were holding death watches for Cadillac.

Olds problem was it's name, not the products. Buick isn't saddled with that issue. Buick is already downsized to a point where it's perfect to be combined with a smaller product lineup from Pontiac and a complimenting truck stable through GMC.

Contrary to what many here think, there is a fierce loyalty to GMC over Chevy pickups by it's diehard fans.

Buick has something that Pontiac doesn't: a blank slate. It isn't the boy racer division with wings and cladding. It isn't the top of the line GM, it isn't the volume division. Ask most people what Buick is and they will likely mention Tiger Woods or have no idea.

Huh? Most people i know think of buick as the worst 'old man car' company in the world. I can't remember the last time i saw a non grey hair driving a buick. I haven't even SAT in a buick since the last time i rode in a GN probably 10 years ago.

Let's not forget that it wasn't all that long ago that many car enthusiast were holding death watches for Cadillac.



Cadillac Zeta --- DEAD.

XLR--------------DEAD.

Ultra V8---------DEAD.

Turbo V6---------DEAD.

CTS Coupe-------DELAYED.

Alpha------------ON HOLD.


Not on death watch yet, but certainly comatose. :(

GN, GNX, GSX... No negative baggage there. The Grand Nationals woke up the floor traffic at Buick years back. They brought a younger buyer who had no issues with the brand as the product they wanted delivered the goods.

Yeah, but in that era the Gbody GMs were doing quite well in sales so it wasn't that big of a stretch to get them out of their cutlass/MC/GP and into a hot engined regal. It's a little different proposition than getting them out of their lexus/acura.

If the GTO / G8 aren't bringing big increases of foot traffic to BPG showrooms, i have no idea how a hot buick would do any better.

What Buicks can you purchase with a bench seat and column shifter right now? None that I know of.
Listen there isn't another vehicle for sale on the planet right now (except maybe an Impala) that has a bench seat and column shifter so where are these buyers going to go?
LaCrosse (current model)

Lucerne

DTS

Impala

Silverado

Sierra

Tahoe

Yukon

Suburban

Yukon XL

Colorado

Canyon

This is GM's line-up of column shifted bench seat vehicles available.

And yes, the bench seat is very important to many customers. Especially to consumers who don't want the shifter on the console and those who want an extra seat for those rare occasions.

Yeah, but in that era the Gbody GMs were doing quite well in sales so it wasn't that big of a stretch to get them out of their cutlass/MC/GP and into a hot engined regal. It's a little different proposition than getting them out of their lexus/acura.

If the GTO / G8 aren't bringing big increases of foot traffic to BPG showrooms, i have no idea how a hot buick would do any better.

For whatever reasons, the GTO and G8 haven't caught fire with the public. We could dedicate a whole thread to the reasons why.

Now that Buick is aligning itself with Opel, it sure is easy to see this car as turbo Regal: http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/08/Opel-Insignia-OPC.jpg

But first, GM must survive and re-organize. And second, Cadillac needs to keep it's eye on the ball and not crowd Buick.

LaCrosse (current model)

Lucerne

DTS

Impala

This is GM's line-up of column shifted bench seat vehicles available.

And yes, the bench seat is very important to many customers. Especially to consumers who don't want the shifter on the console and those who want an extra seat for those rare occasions.

OK nobody is shopping Buick for a BOF fullsize SUV or pickup so that argument is flawed, I left them off. The Impala and Lacrosse are rebadged W-bodies dating back to the late 1980s. The Lucerne and DTS are also rebadges so that argument is pretty weak as well. So 2/3 of the Buick lineup (the two oldest models) have OPTIONAL bench seats, which are likely only available on the base models. Also what is the take rate on that option? I found 1 Lacrosse on ebay with one (out of 25), and 0 Lucernes out of 16.

Honestly I don't think there is enough demand to pay for the cost of engineering that 'feature' into future models, and all the competitors agree.

For whatever reasons, the GTO and G8 haven't caught fire with the public. We could dedicate a whole thread to the reasons why.

Now that Buick is aligning itself with Opel, it sure is easy to see this car as turbo Regal: http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/08/Opel-Insignia-OPC.jpg

But first, GM must survive and re-organize. And second, Cadillac needs to keep it's eye on the ball and not crowd Buick.Wouldn't it be easier to slap a bowtie on it and call it Impala? :D

just came in to re-state what several others seem to think. Buick isn't going anywhere. The new product looks very good, and they sell well in China. If anything, I think we'll see it become more sucessful in the next decade or so.

Wouldn't it be easier to slap a bowtie on it and call it Impala? :D

No because it is slightly smaller than the Malibu. But a LWB version of it, possibly.

So..here is what the crystal ball is telling me...

Buick is going to fail..much like Old's and Saturn have failed in the role of import fighter. Like Old's...no matter how great the car is...you will not get import buyers in a Buick showroom. Going a step further..by taking away most of Pontiac's cars...you are gonna kill any youthfull traffic at BPG dealerships at all. Also, to make Buick an import fighter, you will have to take away the things that traditional Buick customers like (bench seats, column shifters and so forth). The same thing happened to Old's..all the changes made a traditional Old's buyer look elswhere...while the Old's name was so tarnished, new buyers would not give it a chance.

just a thought...

Buick is virturally fail proof. As long as Buick is a big success in China, Buick USA has vehicles to sell.

Oldsmobile simply couldn't recover sales, even after GM pumped alot of money into it. Oldsmobile didn't have an alternative market to keep it alive either.

There is no youthful traffic at BuickPontiacGMC to kill.

Pontiac has the highest percentage of female buyers of any brand sold in the US. Males that buy Pontiacs tend to be 40 plus and tend to go for Pontiac's sporty offerings like the G8 & Solstice. Younger families buy the Vibe, but I mean younger as in 30something. GMC doesn't attract a young base, it attracts an older group as well.

Buick is by no means an import fighter. Buick makes some of the best quality cars at GM. Buick customers value smooth ride over handling. When dealers killed off plans to bring over the Statesman as the Roadmaster and gave negative feedback on a RWD Lucerne replacement (which gave fuel to some within GM to kill it off), GM handed Buick over to GM China since old, rustbelt retirees simply aren't enough to sustain a car division in today's market. The 2010 Lacrosse is the 1st China Buick which will be made here... and the official withdrawal of Lutz's dream of a Lexus-like Buick Motor Division.

Sure, Germany's Opel Insigna will be coming here as a Buick Regal. But it was originally going to be the new Saturn Aura.


I won't start on Pontiac.

For whatever reasons, the GTO and G8 haven't caught fire with the public. We could dedicate a whole thread to the reasons why.

Now that Buick is aligning itself with Opel, it sure is easy to see this car as turbo Regal: http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/08/Opel-Insignia-OPC.jpg

Yeah, it's easy for an enthusiast to see that as a turbo regal. Just like it was easy to see the monaro as a GTO. I just don't see a world where the GTO couldn't get off the ground (when it still had some modicum of "youthful traffic" from the grand am and supercharged grand prix just as the redesign was killing its sales) that is suddenly going to notice a car that's so far outside what buick has offered in over 20 years.

And that's my only point, recall that i was simply refuting the analogy to the GN that woke up buick sales floors in the 80s. Todays market is different.

What argument is flawed 91_z28_4me?

You stated that:
there isn't another vehicle for sale on the planet right now (except maybe an Impala) that has a bench seat and column shifter

You were simply incorrect in your statement. Never did I say they would be cross shopped.

The Lucerne and DTS are also rebadges so that argument is pretty weak as well.
Again, what argument? But since you brought it up, while they share their structure, they are far from rebadges.

So 2/3 of the Buick lineup (the two oldest models) have OPTIONAL bench seats, which are likely only available on the base models.
The bench seat option is available on all LaCrosses and Lucernes excluding Super model.

Honestly I don't think there is enough demand to pay for the cost of engineering that 'feature' into future models, and all the competitors agree.
Though they will be departing soon, Mercury's Grand Marquis and Lincoln's Town Car offer bench seat with column shift as well. The bench seat still has its place in the market for consumers who don't care about looking sporty with its shifter on the console and taking up space. Many markets are like this, perhaps yours is not.

Cadillac Zeta --- DEAD.

XLR--------------DEAD.

Ultra V8---------DEAD.

Turbo V6---------DEAD.

CTS Coupe-------DELAYED.

Alpha------------ON HOLD.


Not on death watch yet, but certainly comatose. :(

Cadillac is far from comatose.... far from it.

With what Cadillac has already, or is coming out with over the next couple of years is going to keep it pretty relevent for at least the next 4 years.

It's interesting how you have everything marked as dead, yet you still claim the Alpha's on hold. :shrug:

Cadillac's CTS is going to becaome the center of attention at Cadillac. It will be a full model line within a year, and it will have yet another V (the coupe).

The new Escalade will be out within a couple of years, and the SRX is due out later this year. The DTS will likely now get a restyling and a chassis upgrade on it's existing chassis. That will come a year after the Zeta DTS was due.

There's apparently an Espilon Cadillac in the pipeline to take over the entry Cadillac position that will build up volume there.

GM killed the Ultra V8 Northstar replacement because it was to a large degree a waste of money. The Northstar is capable of taking Cadillac into the next decade. The focus is now on the V6 which provides as much power as the current Northstar, is lighter weight, and gets better fuel economy.

Going beyond 4 or 5 years in the industry is 100% speculation. Things can be killed off up to the point tooling is ordered (12 months) and projects can be reach the showroom from laptop very quickly (18 months for cars, 1-2 years for engine upgrades, 3-4 years for all new engines).

Looking at what Cadillac has now, what it has in the pipeline, and the direction it's going, even I'm pretty impressed. Save for the Espilon Cadillac (which would have likely been the Alpha I suspect you're thinking about), and the Zeta Cadillac design going on an updated G-body, there really isn't anything that's changed with Cadillac's programs here in the US.

Of course, the big news is that Cadillac isn't expanding globally anymore... but I wouldn't exactly call that comatose.

You guys are saying "But Buick is gonna get OMG great product...they can't fail!". I am saying the SAME thing happened with Oldsmobile. Suddenly GM decided to give Old's an import fighting lineup and it failed because the brands image was ruined. Something with Buick...you can't slap great cars in a dealership and expect 20 years of lame old people cars to go away. The only difference is that Buick has the China volume..but that just tells me Buick belongs in China, much like Holden belongs in Oz.

Cadillac's CTS is going to becaome the center of attention at Cadillac. It will be a full model line within a year, and it will have yet another V (the coupe).

I hope the CTS Wagon remains. Rumors abound of its death already. The Coupe obviously should already be out. There should also be a V-Series of each one (sedan, wagon, and coupe).

There's apparently an Espilon Cadillac in the pipeline to take over the entry Cadillac position that will build up volume there.

I wonder what that will end up looking like in terms of size and weight versus an "alpha". I wonder about styling. I wonder about content. How would it compare to the new FWD buicks? I'm not 100% against it though - I'm just concerned.

Formula-
Looking back at Cadillac's rebirth, perhaps what Buick needs is a face (like Lutz was for Cadillac) and a flagship to prove that there is life. The problem is, what car would you select for this? How would you do it? You'd need a car that would appeal (whether they could buy it or not) to anyone 25-55. You'd need to generate traffic and publicity. Every car mag everywhere should be as shocked by its presence as they were with Lutz and the CTS.

With a new "Regal" on the way, the press will be biting at the chops for a "Turbo Regal" or "Grand National". And the GM of today doesnt have the guts to build a new Grand National worthy of the name. But if they did... :think:

You guys are saying "But Buick is gonna get OMG great product...they can't fail!". I am saying the SAME thing happened with Oldsmobile. Suddenly GM decided to give Old's an import fighting lineup and it failed because the brands image was ruined. Something with Buick...you can't slap great cars in a dealership and expect 20 years of lame old people cars to go away. The only difference is that Buick has the China volume..but that just tells me Buick belongs in China, much like Holden belongs in Oz.

Olds never got a great lineup. They got an OK one toward the end, but nowhere near good enough to compete with the imports IMO.

The 2010 Lacrosse looks "OMG great"... and that's coming from me... you know I'm not going to pay GM any compliments it doesn't deserve.

That car is #1 on my list of cars to replace my 335i in October unless it comes in significantly higher priced than the current LaCrosse or I drive it and find something I am not currently anticipating that I don't care for.

The 2010 Lacrosse looks "OMG great"... and that's coming from me... you know I'm not going to pay GM any compliments it doesn't deserve.

And it has a heads up display, which I think is just about the best feature a car can get.

It's interesting how you have everything marked as dead, yet you still claim the Alpha's on hold. :shrug:

.

I might have some good news on that.


It's.............................................. ...........................................alive. :cool:

Yeah, it's easy for an enthusiast to see that as a turbo regal. Just like it was easy to see the monaro as a GTO. I just don't see a world where the GTO couldn't get off the ground (when it still had some modicum of "youthful traffic" from the grand am and supercharged grand prix just as the redesign was killing its sales) that is suddenly going to notice a car that's so far outside what buick has offered in over 20 years.

And that's my only point, recall that i was simply refuting the analogy to the GN that woke up buick sales floors in the 80s. Todays market is different.


That car with a different grill is the Regal. The Monaro GTO failed for so many reasons. I don't actually have the energy to make the case that Buick should get this version or not right now. But I will say, it would have alot less going against it as a Regal T-Type/GN/GNX than the Monaro did as as GTO.

You guys are saying "But Buick is gonna get OMG great product...they can't fail!". I am saying the SAME thing happened with Oldsmobile. Suddenly GM decided to give Old's an import fighting lineup and it failed because the brands image was ruined. Something with Buick...you can't slap great cars in a dealership and expect 20 years of lame old people cars to go away. The only difference is that Buick has the China volume..but that just tells me Buick belongs in China, much like Holden belongs in Oz.



Two big differences:

>China -- HUGE market -- and growing -- and they LOVE Buicks.....Olds? not even a thought in China...

>Olds wasn't making money - Buick does.


Have you had an opportunity to see the new Lacrosse in person? The interior is -- well, HECK-- even THREXX likes it!!!!

Have you had an opportunity to see the new Lacrosse in person? The interior is -- well, HECK-- even THREXX likes it!!!!I saw a Lacrosse on the road Friday and thought, gee that's a nice looking sedan. I suspect it was only a 2009 though. :shrug:

P.S. Come to think of it, it may have been a 2009 Lucerne. Regardless, it was a lot better looking than most Buicks I've seen in the past. :D

Well..that is fine...let them have Buicks in China. They like Holdens in Austrailia and Opels in Europe...yet we don't sell those brands here. The thing is...Buick are not popular here any more. Matter of fact it is irrelevent.

Here is a dose of history. Old's was sinking...has an old and stale image. GM spends an ass ton or money trying to make appeal to younger buyers who who want something above a or won't consider a Chevy. GM spends the money...it does not work...Old's get's closed. Then GM decides...let's move Saturn into that slot next to/above Chevy. They have great dealers everyone loves, young buyers who are getting older and now want something more than cheap plastic little cars. Better yet, we can rebadge Opels (which are sexy), turn up the marketing dollars, and everyone will buy them in droves! Now that the money has been spent, and Saturn has not grown...GM wants to close them because their seperate dealer channel is a burden. What we ended up with was the depressing Astra, an Aura that was good (but costs more and is not as good as the new Malibu), Sky, Vue, Outlook. It's a good lineup..the problem is..any buyers who had emotions for Saturn had already moved on...and the buying public smarted up and realized that Saturn is just another GM brand. The best part is GM is now using that previously touted fantastic dealer network as justification for closing Saturn because of it's redundancy.

So enter Buick. A brand GM thought so highly of..they cut it to three models and basically mothballed just two to three years ago. The current Buic makes money in China sure..but there it is mostly rebadged Opels and Daewoos. If it makes money here that is because nothing is invested in it besides a few rebadges and sponsoring golf tournements. It don't see being popular in China is benefit to Buick in the US.

All that I am saying is...GM should have learned by now...you can't let a brand languish..and then give it some marketing dollars, and one or two good cars and expect an instant turnaround. It is a long process...hell even Cadillac is not where it should be.

All I can hope is GM is around long enough to where they decide they are gonna remake Pontiac...
Two big differences:

>China -- HUGE market -- and growing -- and they LOVE Buicks.....Olds? not even a thought in China...

>Olds wasn't making money - Buick does.


Have you had an opportunity to see the new Lacrosse in person? The interior is -- well, HECK-- even THREXX likes it!!!!

You guys are saying "But Buick is gonna get OMG great product...they can't fail!". I am saying the SAME thing happened with Oldsmobile. Suddenly GM decided to give Old's an import fighting lineup and it failed because the brands image was ruined. Something with Buick...you can't slap great cars in a dealership and expect 20 years of lame old people cars to go away. The only difference is that Buick has the China volume..but that just tells me Buick belongs in China, much like Holden belongs in Oz.

Cadillac turned around it's customer base within a few years. The rapid introductions of the CTS, STS, XLR, SRX, & redesigned DTS as well as great marketing of the Escalade (up till Caddie's turn around, Lincoln Navigator was seriously whipping the Escalade in sales). So you can in fact "slap great cars in a dealership"... you just have to do it in a way that attracts alot of new customers without scaring the old ones away. Cadillac successfully did that.

Oldsmobile had no other market to support it's design and engineering. Buick is being designed and/or engineered in China. If nothing else, all the work on Buick can be done in China and made here on a Malibu assembly line. Buick also has GMC and to a lesser extent, Pontiac to prop it up. Oldsmobile didn't have that.

I agree with Paul that the Oldsmobile name also played a part in it's demise. So did it's overlap with Buick's demographics, which played into it's final nosedive.

GM did turn Oldsmobile into an "import-like" brand.... and alienated it's core older customers in the process (while failing to bring in new younger customers).

BTW, you might want to rethink that Holden belongs in Oz item.

Holden has multiple markets to keep it going, not just in Oz. Holdens are made and/or sold not just in Australia but Korea, China, the Middle East, New Zealand, South Africa, South America, in addition to both here in the US and Europe.

Buick will be primarily Chinese, but also sold in the US.

That guarantees Buick will be around here as long as the China market remains strong.

Have you had an opportunity to see the new Lacrosse in person? The interior is -- well, HECK-- even THREXX likes it!!!!

Congratulations, Kyle, you are now the metric by which automotive design success is measured! ;)

Buick is virturally fail proof. .

Well.... I wouldn't go that far.


Sure GMNA has circled the wagons around Chevy/Cad
illac/GMC/Buick. But who knows what will happen - especially if GM files CH 11.

Well.... I wouldn't go that far.


Sure GMNA has circled the wagons around Chevy/Cad
illac/GMC/Buick. But who knows what will happen - especially if GM files CH 11.

Very good point....Ok, I'll qualify it.

Buick is going to be around as long as GM doesn't sell it off to it's Chinese partner.

A very realistic possibility, indeed! :think:

Very good point....Ok, I'll qualify it.

Buick is going to be around as long as GM doesn't sell it off to it's Chinese partner.

A very realistic possibility, indeed! :think:But if that were to come to pass, based upon Buick's popularity and image in China, wouldn't you expect the Buick name to survive? :think:

The point I'm trying to make is that Buick doesn't have the negative baggage that Olds had.

I don't know what anyone can make of individual model or brand sales which is truly relavent and "money" in this economic climate.

I can tell you what my personal take is.

The new Buick LaCrosse is a sweet looking, right for the times car.

The new Camaro dominates every car show when it comes to interest and emotion.

Cruze strike a major note from a wide, wide audience.

Corvette is a major contender in the aspirational "I'll have one one day" market.

Converj shows that there could be pofit in electric cars...

I will offer that GM has some fabulous product available right now, coming right soon, and coming in the future. I believe it with as muchas certainty as I have believed anything about cars.

Any reliance on any sales numbers in this economy have no reliability basis that can be useful as any sort of bellwhether which hints, in any way, where the future of automotive product should, or shouldn't be headed.

I will tell you that the Buick LaCrosse was not getting the level of public attention the Camaro was at NAIAS, but I did see bona fide buyers giving it the repeat looks and dreamy glances.

This economic situation could not have come as anything which can be construed as a good time.... but it's particularly vexing to me that it comes when GM has so much really fine product being released. I take some comfort that folks who can and will pull the trigger on GM product will get more than their money's worth. The state of the business does not reflect the state of the product offered.

Put all else aside, GM started with Buick. As tough as Olds was to see fall by the wayside, Buick is of great significance.

No negative bagage? The fact that most under 60 won't be caught dead in one is a lot of baggage. That was Old's baggage actually..that their cars were stodgy and old people drove them. Sure..we can blame it on "Old" being in the name...but when most people hear Buick they instantly thing old also. It is easy to see this working as someone who cares about GM and wants to see success. The problem is..to the average American buyer..Buick is a dead brand. Matter off fact..even Lutz once called it that.

I tried to get my wife to settle on an Enclave when the Avalanche's smart buy is up. Even though she liked it she would get an Acadia next because she just cannot see her self "driving a Buick". I actually got to spend some time with an Enclave while waiting for my G8 to get detailed..and while it looks great on the outside..the interior is kinda stodgy. The one I looked at was base..and the seat covers looked like they were made from the same material as granny's handbag. Also the interior has too much wood..which most people my age do not like. My wife fought me on the Avalanche because it had wood on the dash.

http://image.automotive.com/f/crossovers/2008-buick-enclave-not-your-fathers-buick/1035628+w630+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-buick-enclave-interior-driver-sidejpg.jpg

The new Lacrosse might be nice...but it is not a game changer...not as long as it's a Buick. With how nice the new Taurus is..the Impala really needs to be what the LaCrosse is.

The point I'm trying to make is that Buick doesn't have the negative baggage that Olds had.

I don't know what anyone can make of individual model or brand sales which is either or truly relavent and "money" in this economic climate.

I can tell you what my personal take is.

The new Buciks LaCrosse is a sweet looking car. The new Camaro dominates every car show when it comes to interest and emotion. Cruze strike a major note from a wide, wide audience. Corvette is a major contender in the aspirational "I'll have one one day" market.

I will offer that GM has some fabulous product available right now, coming right soon, and coming in the future.

Any reliance on a glance at gross sales numbers in this economy have no reliability basis that can be useful as a bellwhether which hints in any way where the future of product should, or shouldn't be headed.

I will tell you that the Buick LaCrosse was not getting the level of public attention the Camaro was at NAIAS, but I did see bona fide buyers giving it the repeat looks and dreamy glances.

This economic situation could not have come a anything which can be construed as a good time.... but it's very vexing to me that it comes when GM has so much really fine product being released. At least, I take some comfort that folks who can and will pull the trigger on GM product will get more than their money's worth.

Put all else aside, GM started with Buick. As tough as Olds was to see fall by the wayside, Buick is of great signifigance.

Brandon, we get it you love Pontiac and don't like Buick.

We can talk about brand perception until we are blue in the face but quite frankly it isn't something that either side can bring up proof for unless they went out and did a survey on brand recognition with an unbiased audience, especially one that doesn't have an automotive oriented population.

I generally agree with formula. Trying to compare current buick to cadillacs low point before rebirth is silly. Cadillac has always been at least relevent to the market even if it had misses at the same time. It's not like cadillac created a CTS and a good marketing campaign and suddenly they mattered again. The seville with the northstar had a lot of buzz around it in the 90s. And even before the escalade hit it big with the hip hop crowd you saw plenty of classic land barge caddies in rap videos and caddie emblems on big gold chains. And it's not just the hip hop crowd that were into caddies. My cousin is a bassist in a psychobilly punk rock band and she (yes SHE) bought a sweet mid 70s cadillac barge just because it's awesome. Etc, etc, etc.

I know, i know, more anecdotes. Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if buick can survive and makes great cars that are relevent to the US market. I think it'll be a longer road than cadillac to get there though.

Brandon, we get it you love Pontiac and don't like Buick.

We can talk about brand perception until we are blue in the face but quite frankly it isn't something that either side can bring up proof for unless they went out and did a survey on brand recognition with an unbiased audience, especially one that doesn't have an automotive oriented population.

It's not so much a matter of me loving Pontiac and hating Buick. I am just dumbfounded that 3 years ago Buick was downsized...like they want to do Pontiac and called a damaged brand...yet now GM is making it a pillar of the company. The thing is Buick was doing better in China 3-4 years ago than they are now. I would rather see them continue what they have done with Saturn product wise...but get back to basics marketing wise and make it the non-GM brand. Really..imagine if the Lacrosse was the next gen Aura....

No negative bagage? The fact that most under 60 won't be caught dead in one is a lot of baggage. That was Old's baggage actually..that their cars were stodgy and old people drove them. Sure..we can blame it on "Old" being in the name...but when most people hear Buick they instantly thing old also. It is easy to see this working as someone who cares about GM and wants to see success. The problem is..to the average American buyer..Buick is a dead brand. Matter off fact..even Lutz once called it that.

Certainly there is huge baggage issues with Buick, but what GM is trying to do here is far less radical than what they did with Oldsmobile. They are not trying to completely remake Buick's image from the ground up, only tweak it a bit to appeal to a slightly younger and wealthier audience.

I'm also very skeptical they will be successful - especially after years of schizophrenic product planning and halfassed marketing. You are correct that Buick was "left for dead", and now GM does have a monumental task convincing people to look at a brand that's been practically invisible for 10 years.

However, what other options does GM have?
- They have certain global models that can be sold in the US.
- These models are too expensive for the Chevrolet / Pontiac / Saturn nameplates
- These models don't fit the Cadillac formula.
- They are stuck with the Buick / GMC dealer channel, which can profitably move trucks

So Buick is pretty much their only option. Do you leave these products in China just because "Buick is for old people"? What good would that do them?

However, what other options does GM have?
- They have certain global models that can be sold in the US.
- These models are too expensive for the Chevrolet / Pontiac / Saturn nameplates
- These models don't fit the Cadillac formula.
- They are stuck with the Buick / GMC dealer channel, which can profitably move trucks

So Buick is pretty much their only option. Do you leave these products in China just because "Buick is for old people"? What good would that do them?

Bullet 2, If it's too expensive for pontiac and saturn, exactly what power and allure does buick have to convince people to pay more? I don't recall buicks being necessarily more expensive than pontiacs historically.

I guess you're right, buick is their only option. An interesting mental exercise would be to consider which is easier?: Rebuild buicks image with great new cars or create a new brand (e.g. acura / lexus) from scratch with the great new cars. I know the latter is utterly impossible because of other considerations (and GM would screw it up long term anyway just like they did saturn), it's just fun to imagine... maybe sad is more like it.

Why not invest in Saturn. GM screwed Saturn when they stopped marketing it as almost it's own company. Maybe they should spin it off as it's own company with GM holding most the shares and let it take after Toyota.

I just got an up close and personal look at the LaCrosse, http://camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668046.

This car has the goods!

Bullet 2, If it's too expensive for pontiac and saturn, exactly what power and allure does buick have to convince people to pay more? I don't recall buicks being necessarily more expensive than pontiacs historically.
That's a good point, Buick has a long history of selling cars that cost $1000 more than the equivilant Chevy - they really don't have a very upscale position with their current product line.

It probably comes down to the Buick Enclave being one of GM's few bright spots outside of Chevy/Cadillac.

But also I think Buick's dormancy almost works to it's advantage here. The 'image' of Buick has been constant for decades, good or bad. It isn't something some marketing bozos invented last year. It's not like their image has to be so much changed, but just tweaked.

So long as Buick is making GM money, it will hang around. Everything else is just jabber.

So long as Buick is making GM money, it will hang around. Everything else is just jabber.



:yes:

The old adage "hindsight is 20/20" is still used -- for a very good reason.

It perhaps should be the 'anthem' for the internet..............

I ask everyone -- at the first opportunity that you have to sit in a 2010 Buick Lacrosse -- PLEASE do..................

We heard that about the new Malibu, and the one before it, and the Aura and so forth. I remember making a post that the G6 would be a world beater back in the day.

Not questioning they are great cars...but one great car does not undue a perception built over several years. I also think what happens is when GM does make a stand out car..it is at best even with it's competition..but almost never class leading (Camaro may change that). So to us...what is a great car from GM...is average to someone not rooting for the company.

Hindsight may be 20/20..but at some point you have to learn from the past. I applaud GM's efforts...but has a big history person I feel like it is groundhog day.


The old adage "hindsight is 20/20" is still used -- for a very good reason.

It perhaps should be the 'anthem' for the internet..............

I ask everyone -- at the first opportunity that you have to sit in a 2010 Buick Lacrosse -- PLEASE do..................

We heard that about the new Malibu, and the one before it, and the Aura and so forth. I remember making a post that the G6 would be a world beater back in the day.

Not questioning they are great cars...but one great car does not undue a perception built over several years. I also think what happens is when GM does make a stand out car..it is at best even with it's competition..but almost never class leading (Camaro may change that). So to us...what is a great car from GM...is average to someone not rooting for the company.

Hindsight may be 20/20..but at some point you have to learn from the past. I applaud GM's efforts...but has a big history person I feel like it is groundhog day.
FWIW, my personal perception of Buick is far greater than my perception of Pontiac. That said, I think you're letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Pontiac may have been the GM's performance icon 20 years ago, but that image is fairly left to enthusiasts. Buick on the other hand fits in quite well between Chevrolet and Cadillac and is hugely popular in China which currently is the biggest growing market in the world.

The old adage "hindsight is 20/20" is still used -- for a very good reason.

It perhaps should be the 'anthem' for the internet..............

I ask everyone -- at the first opportunity that you have to sit in a 2010 Buick Lacrosse -- PLEASE do..................

When is the Lacrosse expected to be out?

My lease is up in October 09 so I'm sure it'll be out before then but I want the hype to die down as much as possible in the mean time so I don't get stuck with a dealer insisting on raping me to get a car that's hot off the assembly line.

While we're at it... any chance the Cruze will be out this year? I'm guessing no, but it sure is bizarre to me since I think it exists elsewhere in the world already?