Is the Volt a Big Mistake?

Is GM making a big mistake with the Volt? From what I understand, Volt will be $40,000+, with GM taking a loss on each one. Did GM management screw up in putting all there eggs in the Volt basket(i.e. the plug-in hybrid basket)? Should GM have taken the route such as Toyota, Honda, and Ford and come out with electric-gas hybrids like the Prius/Camry/Insight/Fusion that get great gas mileage, can be purchased for a reasonable amount of money, and can be sold in large volumes? Is the Volt a non-factor with gas aroung $2/gallon? Your thoughts...

Volt will be $40,000+, with GM taking a loss on each one.

Correction: Volt will be $40,000+, so that GM does not have to take a loss on each one.

Sales will be slow until gas prices spike again. In the meantime, I'm in favor of the Cadillac Converj concept being pushed for production, because a premium vehicle would help pay for all of the expensive R&D that has gone into that platform.

Should GM have taken the route such as Toyota, Honda, and Ford and come out with electric-gas hybrids like the Prius/Camry/Insight/Fusion that get great gas mileage, can be purchased for a reasonable amount of money, and can be sold in large volumes? Is the Volt a non-factor with gas aroung $2/gallon? Your thoughts...
GM has several such hybrids on the market already. More importantly, they've concentrated first on releasing hybrid versions of their full-size trucks, where hybrid technology's impact on fuel economy is most needed and appreciated.

Volt is a great move. GM will be the first one out with a real electric car,the R&D will prove useful for the future. It is also a great PR move. Gas won't be $2 for long, once the recession is over the prices will be back up fast, just in time for high MPG vehicles to be in high demand.

Volt is to MPG what Corvette is to HP and 0-60, it is GM's green halo.

I'd still like to see another 40mpg car from GM. They really need to get all they can out of the Cruze and Beat/Spark. I also wish they put the 2 mode in something other than full size vehicles, sales have been a flop. It needs to go into Malibus and Equinox teamed with a DI 4cyl.

If gas is still around $2/gal when the Volt hits the showrooms, then this economy is a lot worse off than we feared. (Furthermore, GM probably won't be around in its present form if that were to happen.)

IMHO, the Volt is 100x better than any non-plug in gas/electric hybrid, regardless of the price.

I think the only mistake here is that GM has forged ahead with the Volt at the expense of ALL other future product. If gas doesn't spike sufficiently by the time the Volt comes out it may not have the impact it should. That said it's a very innovative product and yes the Cadillac should move ahead to spread costs.

That said other programs shouldn't be completely sacrificed since there are other areas of the market that won't stand still just because GM has.

Volt would be a bigger mistake if GM decided not to produce it!

Could you imagine how the 'experts' would go on about GM not being enviro-conscious?

Honestly, yes the Volt is a mistake. Hang with me here for a moment. GM brought out the Volt concept as nothing more than a new version of their fuel cell/electric drivetrain they had been working on since the skateboard chassis of the mid 90s. The styling struck a nerve with enthusiasts and the greenies liked what GM said about with the range and other eviro stuff. That is when the pressure was building GM to get a hit product out, gas prices were rising and they still had the image of making only land barge SUVs chugging down gas.

Had GM instead of showing off the Volt concept, shown off the Cruze and said "This will deliver 40 mpg, be on sale next spring, and all for under $20k!" they would have gotten almost as much positive PR for a much smaller price tag. Also if they had moved forward with their 2 mode hybrid system in the Epsilon cars and integrated start stop system (BAS hybrid) on the delta cars they would be in a stronger market position IMO because they would be competing directly with mainstream hybrids instead of burning cash chasing after tech so advanced it isn't going to be fully tested when it hits the showrooms.

Honestly just how much money as the Volt burned in GM's pocket and how could that money have been spent differently? The Volt may be the right car but it isn't coming at the right time.

How do you know if Q4 2010 won't be the right time? The world could see some significant changes over the next 18 months. Not to say those changes couldn't hurt Volt viability either, of course.

I just read about the 2010 Toyota Prius... optioned-out it's sticker will exceed $30,000. Volt, with federal tax credit, should be around $32,500. Seems feasible to me. :shrug:

I'm not looking forward to my electric bill increasing 10 fold when everybody has their damn electric car...

I think we should stay ICE/Hybrid IMO.

We'll be screwed, by then "cheap" power plants (read coal) will not even be allowed to operate. I hate hippies.

How do you know if Q4 2010 won't be the right time? The world could see some significant changes over the next 18 months. Not to say those changes couldn't hurt Volt viability either, of course.

I just read about the 2010 Toyota Prius... optioned-out it's sticker will exceed $30,000. Volt, with federal tax credit, should be around $32,500. Seems feasible to me. :shrug:

I think that the development time was at the wrong time, given GM's financial situation.

I'm not looking forward to my electric bill increasing 10 fold when everybody has their damn electric car...

I think we should stay ICE/Hybrid IMO.

We'll be screwed, by then "cheap" power plants (read coal) will not even be allowed to operate. I hate hippies.

Buy some solar panels for your roof and lock in your electric price.

Had GM instead of showing off the Volt concept, shown off the Cruze and said "This will deliver 40 mpg, be on sale next spring, and all for under $20k!" they would have gotten almost as much positive PR for a much smaller price tag.
Couldn't agree more. The Cruze will be GM's savior, not the Volt.

However the Volt and Cruze share similar styling and platform, so the Volt can be sold as a upscale ultra-green version of the Cruze. Additionally, the Volt will draw folks into Chevrolet dealerships. When buyers see the Volt, then look over at the similarly sized/designed Cruze at half the price and 40 mpg, which will they buy? Most will buy the Cruze, of course. However how many buyers would flock to the lots just to see the Cruze, if there were no Volt?

The Volt is different from today's GM hybrids. The ICE in the Volt merely recharges the on-board battery packs. On today's GM hybrids, the ICE still powers the wheels... which is not the case with Volt. It is a step forward in hybrid ICE/electric vehicles, just not the giant leap everyone makes it out to be.

..Volt is to MPG what Corvette is to HP and 0-60, it is GM's green halo..

GM makes money on the Corvette.... and at 10K the 1st year versus normally 30K annual sales, GM will sell alot more Corvettes as well.

I think the only mistake here is that GM has forged ahead with the Volt at the expense of ALL other future product. If gas doesn't spike sufficiently by the time the Volt comes out it may not have the impact it should. That said it's a very innovative product and yes the Cadillac should move ahead to spread costs.

That said other programs shouldn't be completely sacrificed since there are other areas of the market that won't stand still just because GM has.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Volt would be a bigger mistake if GM decided not to produce it!

Could you imagine how the 'experts' would go on about GM not being enviro-conscious?

Unfortunately, you are also right.

I guess GM's got themselves in a corner on this one..... but they painted themselves there.



Honestly, yes the Volt is a mistake. Hang with me here for a moment. GM brought out the Volt concept as nothing more than a new version of their fuel cell/electric drivetrain they had been working on since the skateboard chassis of the mid 90s. The styling struck a nerve with enthusiasts and the greenies liked what GM said about with the range and other eviro stuff. That is when the pressure was building GM to get a hit product out, gas prices were rising and they still had the image of making only land barge SUVs chugging down gas.

Had GM instead of showing off the Volt concept, shown off the Cruze and said "This will deliver 40 mpg, be on sale next spring, and all for under $20k!" they would have gotten almost as much positive PR for a much smaller price tag. Also if they had moved forward with their 2 mode hybrid system in the Epsilon cars and integrated start stop system (BAS hybrid) on the delta cars they would be in a stronger market position IMO because they would be competing directly with mainstream hybrids instead of burning cash chasing after tech so advanced it isn't going to be fully tested when it hits the showrooms.

Honestly just how much money as the Volt burned in GM's pocket and how could that money have been spent differently? The Volt may be the right car but it isn't coming at the right time.

You have summed up everything I've been trying to say in a very direct way.

GM has burned through money, cancelled projects (the RWD Impala is said to be one of those cancelled) & delayed others to divert both money and personnel to getting the Volt out within the timeframe they promised.

Again, this is resources diverted from vehicles that would actually generate money for GM to go to a project that won't.

That's the problem I have with Volt.

But like SS said, if GM cancells now after all the hoopla they did with the Volt, it would be devestating PR.

GM backed themselves in a corner on this one... and I'm not sure if the company will survive it.



How do you know if Q4 2010 won't be the right time? The world could see some significant changes over the next 18 months. Not to say those changes couldn't hurt Volt viability either, of course.

I just read about the 2010 Toyota Prius... optioned-out it's sticker will exceed $30,000. Volt, with federal tax credit, should be around $32,500. Seems feasible to me. :shrug:

Toyota is worth 100 billion dollars.

General Motors net worth is around negative 60 billion dollars.

Toyota can afford to lose money on a car for the sake of PR.

Can GM divert what little resources they have left out of vehicles that could potentially save the company to one that will lose money... just for PR's sake?

I have read that about 500 engineers are working on the Volt. While it is a novel idea, the strategy GM is using is wrong. Given their financial state, they cant afford a huge loss leader.

At 40+k price range, its not in Chevy's main target market. Volumes will be annually under 30k units, its not going to save the company. After spending $1 billion to build less than 1,000 EV1 cars (about $1 million spent per car!!!), does anyone think this proposition will be a cheap date? Will this vehicle replace Saab as the new money pit?

Given the fact that there are readily available hybrids in the mid twenty price range, how are you going to convince large numbers of people to shell out nearly double for a Volt? How much is GM spending advertising the Volt?

Really, GM needs to worry about maximizing the fuel economy of the volume Cobalt replacement (and call it Cobalt) as well as other profitable core products.

Toyota is worth 100 billion dollars.

General Motors net worth is around negative 60 billion dollars.

Toyota can afford to lose money on a car for the sake of PR.

Can GM divert what little resources they have left out of vehicles that could potentially save the company to one that will lose money... just for PR's sake?

I wasn't really arguing whether the money was well-spent or not, just the market viability of the car itself. We can talk about (and have at length) GM's poor cash management till the cows come home.

I have read that about 500 engineers are working on the Volt. While it is a novel idea, the strategy GM is using is wrong. Given their financial state, they cant afford a huge loss leader.

At 40+k price range, its not in Chevy's main target market. Volumes will be annually under 30k units, its not going to save the company. After spending $1 billion to build less than 1,000 EV1 cars (about $1 million spent per car!!!), does anyone think this proposition will be a cheap date? Will this vehicle replace Saab as the new money pit?

Given the fact that there are readily available hybrids in the mid twenty price range, how are you going to convince large numbers of people to shell out nearly double for a Volt? How much is GM spending advertising the Volt?

Really, GM needs to worry about maximizing the fuel economy of the volume Cobalt replacement (and call it Cobalt) as well as other profitable core products.

Again, how is the price "nearly double" for the Volt? Compare a $27,000 hybrid to the (after tax break) $32,000 Volt. Significant difference? Sure. Double? Not with the numbers (that are still preliminary to be sure) currently circulating.

Again, how is the price "nearly double" for the Volt? Compare a $27,000 hybrid to the (after tax break) $32,000 Volt. Significant difference? Sure. Double? Not with the numbers (that are still preliminary to be sure) currently circulating.

A stripped down 2009 Toyota Prius has a MSRP of $22,720, the out of pocket cost of the Volt I would guess will be around $45k.

I have asked this question for some time but I sort of got my answer today. I saw a new BMW 528i today with an interesting bumper sticker stuck on it. It read:

My next car will be electric.....
www.GM-Volt.com



That is the ticket. The Volt will make GM if it is top notch in quality. A BMW owner cross shopping a Chevy? What is the world coming to?

Flint is still waiting for GM to build that Volt engine plant...

My biggest gripe is that by the time it comes out, Toyota will likely be snappin at the heels of GM with a cheaper product that does just about the same thing. The Prius is pretty good already, so all they have to do is throw a wonder-battery pack and a lawnmower engine in the trunk and call it an "electric vehicle."

It seems like GM is doing a lot of work by developing an entirely new vehicle, but I guess they really didn't have much else to work with. It's an expensive lesson learned while they spent the last 10-ish years crowing about the merits of E85 under the B*** administration.

My biggest gripe is that by the time it comes out, Toyota will likely be snappin at the heels of GM with a cheaper product that does just about the same thing. The Prius is pretty good already, so all they have to do is throw a wonder-battery pack and a lawnmower engine in the trunk and call it an "electric vehicle."

Don't be worried about Toyota it is Honda you need to look at. Their Prius fighter is coming in under $20k I think. That puts it up against the Cruze, something GM may not want to think too much about.

A stripped down 2009 Toyota Prius has a MSRP of $22,720, the out of pocket cost of the Volt I would guess will be around $45k.

So now you believe the Volt will sticker for $52,500? :rolleyes:

So now you believe the Volt will sticker for $52,500? :rolleyes:


NO-MSRP OF AROUND 45k, Corvette is built in similiar volumes and that is close to their starting price. If you still believe hybrids start at 27k, better check Toyota's website. If you have something constructive to add to the conversation, lets hear it. Ive worked in the automotive industry for 12 years and have done my homework, you clearly havent.

My biggest gripe is that by the time it comes out, Toyota will likely be snappin at the heels of GM with a cheaper product that does just about the same thing.

I'd be willing to bet anyone here that GM will not be the first to market with a mass-market plug-in series hybrid. I don't have anything concrete to back that up, other than knowing GM's rich history of promising things way too far in advance to make it seem like they're ahead of everyone else, when of course most of their competitors have similar things in the works and just don't talk about them. Also, with Toyota having such a lead on GM when it comes to hybrid technology and experience, it's hard to believe they would have been caught completely napping.

NO-MSRP OF AROUND 45k, Corvette is built in similiar volumes and that is close to their starting price. If you still believe hybrids start at 27k, better check Toyota's website. If you have something constructive to add to the conversation, lets hear it. Ive worked in the automotive industry for 12 years and have done my homework, you clearly havent.

Okay, I'm sorry. I certainly didn't mean to piss anybody off. I sincerely thought my post was simply pointing out the math.

I'll try one more time.

My point was that, if you believe GM, and the Volt will sticker at $40,000, it will then cost an actual person $32,500 after the federal tax credit of $7,500. Since at this point it's a bit hard to check Toyotas website in the year 2010, I have to use the estimates I have read that put a 2010 Prius (fully optioned) easily over $30,000. I'm not referring to the absolute cheapest hybrid out there, but the one that's as comparable to the Volt as possible.

It seems we're each looking at opposite extremes of the same argument.

It seems that most people think that this system is only for the Volt. The Volt is the first vehicle based on the "Voltec" propulsion system. They have the Cadillac Converj and the Opal Ampera for the European version.

Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz said "You’ll see in future shows there will be future variants showing up through this year." and "I cant comment in specifics, in Geneva, in LA, in a few other shows this year you will see a couple of different concepts. So there’s some more stuff coming. But the Volt isn’t a one-trick pony nor can it be, but I have to say were being very very thorough in assessing what is the next best play. In order to get volume you have to have more choices. As much as the Volt is a wonderful car there are people that have different functional requirements"

While the $40k price point will be high for most people, there should be enough tree huggers out there that would spend $50k+ on one of these. Plus it will get the "Voltec" ball rolling to get it into high production volume which brings along lower prices.

B

This is where I think the Converj is a great idea... it makes the $40K ask a little more palatable.

I'd be willing to bet anyone here that GM will not be the first to market with a mass-market plug-in series hybrid. I don't have anything concrete to back that up, other than knowing GM's rich history of promising things way too far in advance to make it seem like they're ahead of everyone else, when of course most of their competitors have similar things in the works and just don't talk about them. Also, with Toyota having such a lead on GM when it comes to hybrid technology and experience, it's hard to believe they would have been caught completely napping.
From what I've read, most major manufactureres all have plans for either an electric hybrid like the volt or a fully (only) electirc vehicle and all alleged to come out at about the same time as the Volt.

If that is so, it would seem to me that the impact of the Volt would be greatly dimished.

If that is so, it would seem to me that the impact of the Volt would be greatly dimished.

But doesn't the Volt trump the other hybrids with it's newly developed, (automotive application) battery technology and driving range?

But doesn't the Volt trump the other hybrids with it's newly developed, (automotive application) battery technology and driving range?
I don't know how developed GM's battery technology is (aren't they buying that from LG?) but from most of what I've read, a 40 mile range will be on the low end of what's supposed to be coming from other manufactureres.

I don't know how developed GM's battery technology is (aren't they buying that from LG?) but from most of what I've read, a 40 mile range will be on the low end of what's supposed to be coming from other manufactureres.

The Volt's range is 300+ miles, which is better than any other vehicle propelled purely by electric motors (which is pretty much just the Tesla). 40 is what it can do without starting the generator.

I'd be willing to bet anyone here that GM will not be the first to market with a mass-market plug-in series hybrid. Considering BYD Auto already showed their plug-in hybrid at the DIAS last month and plans for it to go on sale this summer, that seems like a safe bet on your end. :p

The Volt's range is 300+ miles, which is better than any other vehicle propelled purely by electric motors (which is pretty much just the Tesla). 40 is what it can do without starting the generator.
Yes, but only with the assistance of the gasoline engine it carries (if I'm mistaken please let me know). What I was speaking of are the electric (only) vehicles that many manufacturers say they will have to market within the next couple of years.

To get back to the original question, I think the Volt is in danger of being too little too late for GM to make much of a splash with it. That doesn't automatically mean it was a mistake but I do wonder if GM would have gone down that path if they knew going in where they would be financially right now?

I suspect they wouldn't.

Yes, but only with the assistance of the gasoline engine it carries (if I'm mistaken please let me know). What I was speaking of are the electric (only) vehicles that many manufacturers say they will have to market within the next couple of years.

The problem with a pure-electric car is that you can't recharge it quickly. The Volt's main advantage is that it provides a useful pure-electric range (enough for most people to make their daily commute without ever engaging the gas engine), while still accommodating a road trip longer than the total range.

With a Tesla (or any other pure-electric car), if you want to go 1000 miles, you have to take an 8-hour break to charge it up every time you reach the end of it's range (which I think is 220 miles for the Tesla, so you'd need four of those breaks).

With the Volt, you just have to make a 5-10 minute stop for gas every 300 miles, and you can go as far as you want. If you happen to be stopping overnight and can plug it in, though, that'll save you some gas.

IMO, that is a huge usability issue for the all-electric cars, and the Volt solves it nicely.

The problem with a pure-electric car is that you can't recharge it quickly. The Volt's main advantage is that it provides a useful pure-electric range (enough for most people to make their daily commute without ever engaging the gas engine), while still accommodating a road trip longer than the total range.

With a Tesla (or any other pure-electric car), if you want to go 1000 miles, you have to take an 8-hour break to charge it up every time you reach the end of it's range (which I think is 220 miles for the Tesla, so you'd need four of those breaks).

With the Volt, you just have to make a 5-10 minute stop for gas every 300 miles, and you can go as far as you want. If you happen to be stopping overnight and can plug it in, though, that'll save you some gas.

IMO, that is a huge usability issue for the all-electric cars, and the Volt solves it nicely.
The problem with that process is that an electric vehicle with an ICE doesn't satisfy the greenies nearly as much as a true electric vehicle and I also don't think it sounds as attractive to more mainstream buyers.

Most of what I've been reading coming from other brands are plug-in electrics (no ICE) with a 100 mile or more range between recharging and obviously, unless the infrastructure is put in place, they would always have to be considered "commuting only" vehicles. Now; I don't know how possible a 100+ mile range all electric is within the next two years or so as they are claiming but that is at least what they are claiming.

I know for me, it's unlikely that a forty mile range would get me to consider a Volt; especially at the price tag being thrown around and I'd simply never consider traveling long distances in one…maybe I'm just not the norm but I have better/more fun vehicles available for long-distance travel.

However, as a commuting only vehicle, a true electric is something I would consider; especially if the car is comparable (style, comfort, amenities) to a similarly priced ICE vehicle.

At the very least, I think we are going to see some very interesting things out of many manufacturers over the next few years.

Flint is still waiting for GM to build that Volt engine plant...

That's not good.

NO-MSRP OF AROUND 45k, Corvette is built in similiar volumes and that is close to their starting price. If you still believe hybrids start at 27k, better check Toyota's website..

As much as I disagree with the wisdom of the Volt given GM's current state of affairs, I don't believe the Volt will start any higher than $40K. No matter how big a tax break the Feds give, there is still going to be a window sticker with that price on it. IMO, it's going to be a bit of a shock. But 10K cars isn't an ambitious goal, so GM will no doubt have more demand than vehicles.


BTW, speaking of Tesla, 1500 are slated for this year's production. You have exactly 6 dealers (and service departments) nationwide. If you still want one, better cash in what's left of your IRA. The base price is now $109,000! :eek:

That's not good.

I heard a rumor that GM is considering repurposing part of the Truck and Bus plant in Flint instead of building a whole new plant. It'd be much less expensive that way, and FT&B is running way below capacity right now anyway.

That rumor came from an FT&B employee whose general credibility is in question IMO (i.e. he's a douche), so take it with a grain of salt.