An Advertising Maverick - now THIS guy's got a set...

This will set some of us on our ears, and make some of us dance around in jubilence...

Angry Ford dealer in SC blasts imports in ads (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/angry_auto_ad;_ylt=AhP0lBEG21JMD.z8WgRz8aMDW7oF)

"SAVANNAH, Ga. – A Ford dealer angered over the proposed bailout of U.S. automakers blames the nation's sour economy on Congress and criticized buyers of Japanese cars, calling the vehicles "rice ready ... not road ready" in a radio ad.

O.C. Welch, who owns a dealership near Savannah in Hardeeville, S.C., began airing the minute-long ad on a dozen stations in the area over the weekend. The ad sounds more like a talk-radio tirade than a sales pitch.

"All you people that buy all your Toyotas and send that money to Japan, you know, when you don't have a job to make your Toyota car payment, don't come crying to me," Welch says in the ad. "All those cars are rice ready. They're not road ready."

Floyd Mori, executive director of the Japanese American Citizens League, said Welch's remarks evoke anti-Asian sentiments often aimed at Japanese and Chinese immigrants to the U.S. from the 1930s through World War II. He also noted many Japanese automakers' cars are manufactured in America.

"It's a blatant, ignorant, racist remark from somebody who should know better," Mori said.

Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said the company's cars consistently receive high marks for quality. The automaker employs 36,600 Americans, he said, and about 60 percent of Toyota vehicles sold in the U.S. were manufactured here.

"How do you tell a worker in Kentucky who's producing a Toyota that his job is worth less than another American autoworker's?" Dominicis said.

The car dealer, though, said Tuesday he had received more positive calls than negative ones. His dealership sold 15 new cars Saturday — half of them to people drawn to the lot by the ad, he said.

Welch said he's mostly mad at politicians, blasting them in his ad as only being good for "slinging mud and spending our tax dollars." He said the government should offer tax incentives for consumers to buy new cars rather than spend money bailing out Ford, General Motors and Chrysler."

I don't care if you agree or not - I'm not even sure that I agree with everything in his ad myself - but you have GOT to give this guy some credit for putting up his money, his face, and his name (and possibly his business) to get his point across. I applaud this kind of conviction. More in the USA need to be this passionate about things.

Turns out that I am driving to Douglas, GA this Friday on personal business... I am seriously considering swinging by his dealership to buy something (anything - even a set of Ford floormats FTM) from him, meet him, shake his hand, and thank him for taking it to the public. Now, I hope he follows it up with a round of statistics and data - true data that shows how well-built US cars are today, how many jobs are tied to the US auto industry, etc. I'm sure he has their attention, now he needs to establish credibility and make a valid point, and not just appear as a whiney cry-baby with an unjustified personal opinion.

I have some text in the quote above in bold.... really makes one think.
* "Manufactured" here... or "assembled" here?

* 36,000 employees here in the US... WOW!!! It's a whole economic sector by itself! Newsflash... we lost over 600,000 jobs in the last month... GM and Ford have both layed-off more than that from one facility.

* His dealership sold 15 new cars Saturday — half of them to people drawn to the lot by the ad... :bow:

I'm trying to find a link to the ad on the web... have not found it yet.
So - anyone else out there got a set like this guy?
It's time to put-up or shut-up. Our livlihood is one the line now like never before.

:usa:

wow. thats relatively down the road from me.. as im in Cola, SC.. its about a hour and a half drive.

Im like you I do applaud him for putting his neck, and everything else on the line. I too hope that he follows the ads with another set, with facts, statistics, and the like. I feel that as a country, we've all been "politically correct" brainwashed. if its not pc, we cant say, think or act on it... and thats just not right.

Good for him. :thumb:

I'll jump on the "I'm glad he has the balls to put his livelihood on the line to state his opinion" bandwagon, but his approach could be better.

36,000 jobs? Oooooh, you big employer you. :lol:

There are too many American car buyers that are anti American. 20+ years ago, yes there was a good reason to despise American automobiles. Today, the products are as good as or even better than the Asian/European brands.

As far as total number of US employees, how many do foreign cars co. have working here compared to the US car makers? It is good that they have assembly plants here, but it's only b/c it's cheaper then building them in their own countries then shipping here.

The majority of America used to be patriotic & supported US co. now the majority doesn't care.

There's another ad like that for a dealer local to me, but not quite as brasen. It basically just says to give the new American cars the chance they deserve. I definitely give this guy credit for doing this. He's got some brass and I'm glad to see him sticking up for the home team.

36,300 Americans employed by Toyota. :lol: There are single cities with higher numbers of GM employees.

yea 36,000 what a joke!


but hey people in this forum is that line all the time - my car is more american then yours - my car was built in america...and on and on bleh bleh bleh

I hope this isn't what Ford calls Bold Moves!

Had he left out "rice" then he wouldn't be subject to racism comments.

What I worry about is a backlash against the big 3 because they are getting government aide and because they got publicly humiliated. I fear that distain will have an impact on their buying practices. It is one thing to think that one particular car is better than another but something else to actually dislike one brand. I fear that many who didn't approve of federal aide to the American car companies will turn on them.

Japanese auto companies get GOV aide from japan.

I love it :D

(I'm sure no one here is surprised by that...)

So far I've bought 8 bumperstickers off eBay with the "Out of a Job Yet? Keep Buying Foreign!" tagline. My workers, myself, even my parents all want one...I'll be buying more soon :D

It's interesting to me that the people who are the most vocal about "Buy American" are those who "Sell American," and paradoxically, not those who actually "Make American."

Curious, no?

It's interesting to me that the people who are the most vocal about "Buy American" are those who "Sell American," and paradoxically, not those who actually "Make American."

Curious, no?


What rediculous reasoning.

On a separate note, I love how when there is nothing else to do lets play the racism card!

He sounds like an idiot honestly.

More balls than brains.

It's interesting to me that the people who are the most vocal about "Buy American" are those who "Sell American," and paradoxically, not those who actually "Make American."

Curious, no?

so you are saying GM plant workers all drive toyotas?

He sounds like an idiot honestly.

More balls than brains.

Yup.

I hope this isn't what Ford calls Bold Moves!

Had he left out "rice" then he wouldn't be subject to racism comments.

What I worry about is a backlash against the big 3 because they are getting government aide and because they got publicly humiliated. I fear that distain will have an impact on their buying practices. It is one thing to think that one particular car is better than another but something else to actually dislike one brand. I fear that many who didn't approve of federal aide to the American car companies will turn on them.

I imagine the people who didn't support a bailout of some form more then likely wouldn't buy an american car anyways.

I imagine the people who didn't support a bailout of some form more then likely wouldn't buy an american car anyways.

Robert Nashville.....do you want me to do this or, well, I guess I will.....

Quoted for utter and complete Bovine Scatology. :yes:

so you are saying GM plant workers all drive toyotas?Of course not. I'm saying that invariably, it seems to be salespeople who will hop on the "Buy American" bandwagon, which is in fact a "buy what I'm selling" bandwagon. The American part is incidental.

The people who have the most to lose in this situation- those actually building the goods- seem to be more restrained and introspective about the whole thing, and avoid these nonsensical tirades.

To me, it's like the classic chicken and pig thing. Chicken and pig decide to have a ham & egg breakfast. The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. The salesman = chicken, the manufacturer = pig.

Floyd Mori, executive director of the Japanese American Citizens League, said Welch's remarks evoke anti-Asian sentiments often aimed at Japanese and Chinese immigrants to the U.S. from the 1930s through World War II. He also noted many Japanese automakers' cars are manufactured in America.

"It's a blatant, ignorant, racist remark from somebody who should know better," Mori said.

Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said the company's cars consistently receive high marks for quality. The automaker employs 36,600 Americans, he said, and about 60 percent of Toyota vehicles sold in the U.S. were manufactured here.

:



See -- here's what everyone seems to forget --

Just TRY exporting ANY manufactured goods to Japan.

The Japanese market -- esp. automobiles, is for all intents and purposes CLOSED.........

So.......

How 'bout we tell them to open the market -- and level the playing field?

Another thing: go look at the 'domestic' content of many foreign cars - yes, some may be assembled here -- and, in the interest of fairness - some have a relatively high percentage of "North American" Content.

But - also look at the tax abatements given to them..........plus they don't have the 'legacy costs' (read: pensions and health care) that the Domestics have to face.......

How 'bout we insist that the likes of Senator Shelby stop GIVING (not 'loaning' -- GIVING
!!!) money to foreign manufacturers --

Remember -- the Detroit Three are asking for a LOAN - (that's with interest paid back -- not a 'free' loan)

......and, if most journalists would do their homework, they'd see that the Detroit Three can make it if the market slowly improves to 12 million units a year over the next two years --


In the end: this comes down to two choices -- complain and rail all you want -- but it's TWO choices:

>Loan the Detroit three 36 billion -- and get it back with interest.........

or

>Assume 170 Billion in obligations -- with no repayment whatsoever............

That's the choice.

EVERY person I've ever known at a Big 3 plant drives an American branded AND built car. You see a few foreign cars in the lots but I don't know who owns them or what the deal with those are.
On top of that, EVERY American auto worker I've ever met have been staunchly pro-American (branded & built) car. We'll speak positively about our products 'till we're blue in the face. And that's because our products are as good or better than theirs, and America needs to learn that.
And if it takes beating them over the head with the facts, then we'll do that.

There's probably not a prouder bunch of American workers than the American auto workers, union and non-union alike.

See -- here's what everyone seems to forget --

Just TRY exporting ANY manufactured goods to Japan.

The Japanese market -- esp. automobiles, is for all intents and purposes CLOSED.........

So.......

How 'bout we tell them to open the market -- and level the playing field?
Somehow, I doubt GM’s problems can be traced back to and/or solved if only Japan had opened its markets to GM.

Of Japan’s TVM (about 5-6M units if memory serves); how many units do you think GM could actually move in Japan (and are we assuming that their market was only opened to GM and everybody was still locked out)?

And regardless of how many units GM sold in Japan; how much of a benefit would that be to GM’s North American operations?


Another thing: go look at the 'domestic' content of many foreign cars - yes, some may be assembled here -- and, in the interest of fairness - some have a relatively high percentage of "North American" Content.
“Assembled”?

Is taking rolls of steel and stamping hoods and door panels and other components just “assembling”?

Is forging engine parts just “assembling”?

Is building your own frames just "assembling"?

For that matter, what the hell is wrong with “assembling?

BTW; at least in my thesaurus; "assemble" is a synonym of "manufacture"

I wouldn’t take the NA Parts Content argument very far…there are “foreign” cars that are imported to the U.S. with more NA Parts Content than some “American” cars and of the “foreign” vehicles manufactured here; the “ domestics” are barely ahead of the “foreign” brands and the difference grows smaller virtually every year.

And since someone will ask: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT.../AALA2008p.pdf


But - also look at the tax abatements given to them..........
How 'bout we insist that the likes of Senator Shelby stop GIVING (not 'loaning' -- GIVING!!!) money to foreign manufacturers –
Do you really believe that if GM wanted to build a brand new plant in…say…Louisiana or Mississippi or South Carolina or Georgia (or any other state in the country) that those respective state governments wouldn’t be conducting a bidding war with tax abatements, grants and other “incentives” to entice GM to build the plant in their respective state?

Would GM refuse such “help” because GM doesn’t think those incentives are “fair”?

Perhaps more to the point, are you saying GM didn’t receive considerable incentives (considerable by that time period’s standards) to build its (former) Saturn plant in Spring Hill?

Businesses (any business of any significant size) are offered incentives by various government entities because that’s the way governments have decided to operate…those government entities don’t give a rats behind “who” the business is…GM…Toyota…Ford…BMW…”names” are immaterial; the states just want the business in their state.

I don’t happen to like “incentives” but they are here and I don’t see that process changing anytime soon…crying about it is a waste of time.


plus they don't have the 'legacy costs' (read: pensions and health care) that the Domestics have to face.......
Again, that’s not the fault of foreign nameplates…whatever legacy costs the “Domestics” have to face are of their own making…no one forced GM or Ford or Chrysler to enter into the agreements they entered into.

That aside, the transplants are not without their own pension and benefit obligations either.


Remember -- the Detroit Three are asking for a LOAN - (that's with interest paid back -- not a 'free' loan)
As has been said many times of late; it’s only a loan if it’s paid back…I’m not over optimistic about it being paid back – I just hope it is.


......and, if most journalists would do their homework, they'd see that the Detroit Three can make it if the market slowly improves to 12 million units a year over the next two years –
I don’t see how 2M more units/year than the current TVM spread among all the nameplates will be enough to do that – I guess we’ll just have to wait on that one.


In the end: this comes down to two choices -- complain and rail all you want -- but it's TWO choices:

>Loan the Detroit three 36 billion -- and get it back with interest.........

or

>Assume 170 Billion in obligations -- with no repayment whatsoever............

That's the choice.
There are a lot of assumptions underlying those two “choices”; not the least of which is that $36B will be all that is ever requested and I’m greatly doubting that particular assumption.

EVERY person I've ever known at a Big 3 plant drives an American branded AND built car. You see a few foreign cars in the lots but I don't know who owns them or what the deal with those are.
On top of that, EVERY American auto worker I've ever met have been staunchly pro-American (branded & built) car. We'll speak positively about our products 'till we're blue in the face. And that's because our products are as good or better than theirs, and America needs to learn that.
And if it takes beating them over the head with the facts, then we'll do that.

There's probably not a prouder bunch of American workers than the American auto workers, union and non-union alike.
It's my understanding that having parking lots/spaces reserved (spaces which are not as "desirable" to park in as are others) for employees that drive "foreign" vehicles are the norm at most domestic plants.

If that's true, I would have to assume that there are a fair number of workers who drive those vehicles. :shrug:

Chrysler got rid of the separate lots when Daimler bought us.
I'd like to see them come back.

Like I said, there's just a very few foreign cars in the lot.

Angry Ford dealer in SC blasts imports in ads (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/angry_auto_ad;_ylt=AhP0lBEG21JMD.z8WgRz8aMDW7oF)

[I][COLOR="Blue"]"SAVANNAH, Ga. – A Ford dealer angered over the proposed bailout of U.S. automakers blames the nation's sour economy on Congress and criticized buyers of Japanese cars, calling the vehicles "rice ready ... not road ready" in a radio ad.

O.C. Welch, who owns a dealership near Savannah in Hardeeville, S.C., began airing the minute-long ad on a dozen stations in the area over the weekend. The ad sounds more like a talk-radio tirade than a sales pitch.

"All you people that buy all your Toyotas and send that money to Japan, you know, when you don't have a job to make your Toyota car payment, don't come crying to me," Welch says in the ad. "All those cars are rice ready. They're not road ready.

Red

Neck

EVERY person I've ever known at a Big 3 plant drives an American branded AND built car. You see a few foreign cars in the lots but I don't know who owns them or what the deal with those are.

Maybe it was this crazy thing called freedom to decide from themselves. I mean, I know that free thought is shunned upon and all by the union, but people still possess it.

On top of that, EVERY American auto worker I've ever met have been staunchly pro-American (branded & built) car. We'll speak positively about our products 'till we're blue in the face. And that's because our products are as good or better than theirs, and America needs to learn that.
And if it takes beating them over the head with the facts, then we'll do that.


The facts for over 3 decades prior to the last few years would be against you. I'm still waiting for someone with a straight face to tell me that a 98 Lumina was a better car than a 98 Accord or a 98 Camry.


There's probably not a prouder bunch of American workers than the American auto workers, union and non-union alike.

Or blind for that matter.

Chrysler got rid of the separate lots when Daimler bought us.
I'd like to see them come back.

You guys are brainwashed beyond belief. Heaven forbid somebody buy another companies car because they want to. You guys can be un-freakin'-believable at times. :|

Chrysler got rid of the separate lots when Daimler bought us.
I'd like to see them come back.

Like I said, there's just a very few foreign cars in the lot.Wait, you build Chrysler, but drive 4 GMs?:think:

Chrysler got rid of the separate lots when Daimler bought us.
I'd like to see them come back.

Like I said, there's just a very few foreign cars in the lot.
Just for the record I believe people ought to support they product they manufacture...If I owned a Shell station, I would not go to an Exxon station to buy gasoline unless I had no other choice...if I made GE appliances; I wouldn’t go out and buy a Maytag Washer/Dryer.

That said, what I find most objectionable about statements like the one you (and others in this thread) made earlier is the insinuation that someone’s patriotism can be or should be measured on such a meaningless, shallow criteria as the nameplate on someone’s vehicle.

Even when “domestic” cars were truly domestic, it would have been shallow criteria; in today’s world it’s ridiculous nonsense to infer someone's love of country based on an automobile nameplate.

Of course not. I'm saying that invariably, it seems to be salespeople who will hop on the "Buy American" bandwagon, which is in fact a "buy what I'm selling" bandwagon. The American part is incidental.
I disagree. You won't find any American salesmen working at Honda/Toyota dealerships waving "Buy Foreign" or "Buy Japanese" banners.

Again, that’s not the fault of foreign nameplates…whatever legacy costs the “Domestics” have to face are of their own making…no one forced GM or Ford or Chrysler to enter into the agreements they entered into.
Don't get me wrong, because I am 100% pro-union, but I would argue that the UAW forced GM, Ford, and Chrysler into many of the agreements that are currently holding them back.

I'm still waiting for someone with a straight face to tell me that a 98 Lumina was a better car than a 98 Accord or a 98 Camry.
A Lumina? No. But maybe a Regal? It depends on how you define "better."

More engaging/fun to drive? The Accord wins that (especially in stickshift form), with Regal in second (especially in a supercharged Regal GS), and the Camry WAY behind.

More reliable? I give the win to the Regal every time. That powertrain is known to last well beyond 200k with nothing but oil changes. The Accord and Camry are going to need three or four timing belts in that time frame, at least.

Lower cost of ownership? I haven't done the research, but I'd bet on the Regal here.

I don't have pictures handy, but I imagine that the Accord and Camry have more modern interiors than the Regal, so I'll give a win there.

Argue all you want, but if you're in the market for a cheap, reliable daily driver, there are few wiser automotive purchases than a used 3800-powered Buick.

I imagine the people who didn't support a bailout of some form more then likely wouldn't buy an american car anyways.

I own two american vehicles...and don't support the bailouts. :think:

A Lumina? No. But maybe a Regal? It depends on how you define "better."

More engaging/fun to drive? The Accord wins that (especially in stickshift form), with Regal in second (especially in a supercharged Regal GS), and the Camry WAY behind.

More reliable? I give the win to the Regal every time. That powertrain is known to last well beyond 200k with nothing but oil changes. The Accord and Camry are going to need three or four timing belts in that time frame, at least.

Lower cost of ownership? I haven't done the research, but I'd bet on the Regal here.

I don't have pictures handy, but I imagine that the Accord and Camry have more modern interiors than the Regal, so I'll give a win there.

Argue all you want, but if you're in the market for a cheap, reliable daily driver, there are few wiser automotive purchases than a used 3800-powered Buick.

Show me numbers and ratings.

I own two american vehicles...and don't support the bailouts. :think:

I own four GM vehicles, and I support the bailout.

Regardless, you'll note that his statement was about likelihood -- of course there are exceptions.

You won't find any American salesmen working at Honda/Toyota dealerships waving "Buy Foreign" or "Buy Japanese" banners.But that's kinda my point. They're waving the "buy what I'm selling" flag, which is really what this guy is doing, too. He's just disguised it with the "Buy American" argument. His prime motive is to sell, not to sell American.

IMO, it's a cheap sales tactic that rings hollow with me, unless it comes from those who actually make the product.

I disagree. You won't find any American salesmen working at Honda/Toyota dealerships waving "Buy Foreign" or "Buy Japanese" banners.
You are probably right but I’m not sure that means what you might think it means.

Specific dealers like that of this Ford dealer (and to some extent, marketing by Detroit Three manufacturers) like to wrap themselves up in the Flag but that has a hell of a lot more to do with marketing than reality.

Apart from most vehement “Pro Domestic” folks, most people know that the boundaries between what is Domestic and what is Foreign are very blurred...so blurred that many people have simply given up trying to figure it out. Is a Toyota Camry made in Kentucky with 75% North American parts content less “domestic” than a an “American” nameplate vehicle built in and imported from outside the U.S.? Most understand that the only realistic answer is no (the “where the money goes crown notwithstanding).

Even if Ford has nothing in the U.S. but a token “office” and did 100% of its design and manufacturing of all its vehicles outside of the U.S. and all of them had 0% NA parts content, folks like this Ford dealer would still be waving the Flag and encouraging people to “buy American”…thankfully, most people are smart enough to not be fooled by those kinds of theatrics.


Don't get me wrong, because I am 100% pro-union, but I would argue that the UAW forced GM, Ford, and Chrysler into many of the agreements that are currently holding them back.
I’m not sure how accurate it is to say they were “forced” although I have to admit, I go back and forth on this issue myself.

As the old saying goes, it takes two to tango…the UAW made the demands and the Detroit manufacturers agreed to (at least some) of them which seems to indicate to me that both share the blame here.

The Detroit automakers made what I’m sure were considered sound business decisions at the time but over time those decisions have proven to be not quite so sound.

However, no matter where the majority of the blame is placed, my point to Scott was that it isn’t any of the foreign nameplates “fault” that those agreements were made and are now causing legacy costs issues for the Detroit Three…it is most certainly an “advantage” for Toyota or Honda or Nissan or Kia, or VW or BMW, etc. to not have the same problem (or at least not as big of a problem) with those costs as currently faced by Detroit but there isn’t anything unfair about it which is how most people try to portray the issue.

The facts for over 3 decades prior to the last few years would be against you. I'm still waiting for someone with a straight face to tell me that a 98 Lumina was a better car than a 98 Accord or a 98 Camry.



So that means what with regards to GM's current product?


I dunno about you, but my local dealership doesn't sell 98 Luminas anymore, they sell some of the best cars to ever roll out of Detroit - or anywhere for that matter. Cars that are better than their competition (:eek:)

Specific dealers like that of this Ford dealer (and to some extent, marketing by Detroit Three manufacturers) like to wrap themselves up in the Flag but that has a hell of a lot more to do with marketing than reality.
Agreed.

Is a Toyota Camry made in Kentucky with 75% North American parts content less “domestic” than a an “American” nameplate vehicle built in and imported from outside the U.S.?
No, but my understanding is (and I admit that I have not done the research and could be wrong) that if you average together the various percentages for Toyota's entire U.S. line, and then do the same for the big three, you'll find that the domestics have significantly higher U.S. content overall, with a much larger portion of assembly taking place here.

The point is that you can point to Camry, which is largely built and assembled here, and compare it to (fill in a qualifying domestic) and show figures that favor Toyota, but it's not about that -- it's about the big picture.

Furthermore, it's also about profit. Regardless of where it's built, the profits from Camry sales go straight to Japan, and that doesn't sit well with some people.

As the old saying goes, it takes two to tango…the UAW made the demands and the Detroit manufacturers agreed to (at least some) of them which seems to indicate to me that both share the blame here.

The Detroit automakers made what I’m sure were considered sound business decisions at the time but over time those decisions have proven to be not quite so sound.

True; my point was only that the automakers were not alone in the blame. You must remember that the UAW likes to threaten the automakers with strikes (which are extremely costly) whenever they're not happy with the terms. During the years when GM had tons of cash, they signed on to some unfortunate agreements because they had the cash and the alternative was a strike (oversimplification, but still).

eh, this dealer sounds like an idiot. I can't really high five his courage and enthusiasm because i think he may of did it out of anger and fear.

This guy just showed his poker hand to the public and it says "i got nothing"

As has been said many times of late; it’s only a loan if it’s paid back…I’m not over optimistic about it being paid back – I just hope it is.
That's an awfully pessimistic view on this, with really nothing to support it besides doubts and misgivings. It worked last time with Chrysler, and we [taxpayers] even made a few million on the deal.

There are a lot of assumptions underlying those two “choices”; not the least of which is that $36B will be all that is ever requested and I’m greatly doubting that particular assumption.
Why? They started with 25 billion...a random, "round-about" number as we're all probably aware. They came back with a comprehensive plan that outlined exactly what they'd need for how long, and what they're going to use it for...

Even so, let say, theoretically...that it doubles and they are unable to pay it back...they need more to get through 2010 or something and then screw up......$72 bil. and a functioning domestic automotive industry is still a helluvalot better than ~170+ billion down the hole, and a broken --if not altogether destroyed-- domestic auto Industry...

To me, at least...the choice it pretty clear.

No, but my understanding is (and I admit that I have not done the research and could be wrong) that if you average together the various percentages for Toyota's entire U.S. line, and then do the same for the big three, you'll find that the domestics have significantly higher U.S. content overall, with a much larger portion of assembly taking place here.
Actually, the difference is both small and getting smaller all the time.

The major foreign nameplates are and have stated goals to build in the U.S. the majority of product they sell in the U.S. and have reached or exceeded that goal…the trend is that “foreign” brands are building more and more product here (and often with more NA parts content) while at the same time, “domestic” brands are sending more and more work offshore ans using less NA parts content.

…The point is that you can point to Camry, which is largely built and assembled here, and compare it to (fill in a qualifying domestic) and show figures that favor Toyota, but it's not about that -- it's about the big picture.

Furthermore, it's also about profit. Regardless of where it's built, the profits from Camry sales go straight to Japan, and that doesn't sit well with some people.
Lot’s of folks like to hang their hat on the “where the profits go” but it’s a red hearing.

In the overall transaction cost of a vehicle, meaning the price a manufacturer charges when it sells the vehicle to a dealer, the least meaningful (in terms of relevance to the total cost) is the “profit” made by the manufacturer on the transaction. The overwhelming financial impact of a vehicle sale is in the funds expended to build it…that money stays in the economy where the funds are expended (and in the case of a vehicle built in the U.S.; it stays in the U.S.). And of course, that ignores the “profits” made at the dealership level – obviously; all the profits made by a dealer in the U.S. stays in the U.S. and benefits the U.S. economy.

The “where the profits go” mantra also ignores the fact that the “profits” really go to the shareholders of the company which are scattered all over the world (regardless of the nameplate) – it only has real relevance if the vehicle in question is 100% designed in the U.S. with 100% of the parts sourced within the U.S. and 100% built within the U.S. and the manufacturer is owned 100% by U.S. citizens living in the U.S.

That's an awfully pessimistic view on this, with really nothing to support it besides doubts and misgivings. It worked last time with Chrysler, and we [taxpayers] even made a few million on the deal.
Pessimistic? I think the view is realistic and I have a lifetime of reasons and experience to support my view.

Perhaps you could explain to me the basis for thinking that they won’t be back for more.

If you don’t want to do that, perhaps you or someone can explain to me how giving money to GM now is going to get people into showrooms to buy vehicles?

The issue isn’t whether GM needs money…they obviously do…the issue is that nothing GM has presented gives any reassurance that giving them money is in any way going to ensure future success; at best, all it does is delay immediate failure.


They started with 25 billion...a random, "round-about" number as we're all probably aware. They came back with a comprehensive plan that outlined exactly what they'd need for how long, and what they're going to use it for...

Even so, let say, theoretically...that it doubles and they are unable to pay it back...they need more to get through 2010 or something and then screw up......$72 bil. and a functioning domestic automotive industry is still a helluvalot better than ~170+ billion down the hole, and a broken --if not altogether destroyed-- domestic auto Industry...
Hold on a moment…if taxpayers end up giving them $72B and we wind up with a “functioning domestic automotive industry” they had dam well pay it back hadn’t they?

If they don’t pay it back then it would mean, would it not, that they have failed and there is no “functioning domestic automotive industry” which means that the tax payers are not only out the $72B but the additional $170B; a total of $242B (assuming of course that the $170B is a figure in any way based in reality).

Aside with the basic problem many Americans (me included) have with the Federal government giving taxpayer money to any private business; what many of us are worried about is that the bill wouldn’t be “just” the $72B but that it won’t work and the bill be the $242B.

To me, at least...the choice it pretty clear.
Might I suggest a trip to your local ophthalmologist?

Just kidding! :)

Perhaps you could explain to me the basis for thinking that they won’t be back for more.
The market stabilizes. And later...the economy stops sailing into hell.

I read the plan GM submitted to Congress...(didn't read Ford or Chryslers as I couldn't find them - but frankly, I wasn't looking).

Anyways, They have the money they requested allocated to the end of 2009, at which point all sorts of analyists are predicting at least a halt to the falling economy and car market. The end of 2009 is also the end of the crazy healthcare funds they have to pay out and when the new contracts kick in...but this is common rhetoric. I find it absolutely unreal that they would have intentionally lied to congress about the sustainability of their business through 2009...

The only thing that would cause them to come back for more would be a gross deterioration of the economy and car market -- one worse than even their worst-case-scenarios. At that point...we'll have more trouble on our hands than a battered domestic auto industry, frankly.

If you don’t want to do that, perhaps you or someone can explain to me how giving money to GM now is going to get people into showrooms to buy vehicles?
That's the kicker. Forget GM for a moment -- Does anybody have a plan to get people into ALL of the showrooms? Because that's what the Industry needs. Still...assuming they don't - GM's anticipating that. They will be able to make money on a ~12 million unit market -- last year it was almost a 'normal' 17 million. So long as the market doesn't deteriorate any MORE, they'll be fine after 2010. Giving money to GM will shore them up temporarily so these changes can be made. That's all its intent was, and that's all it would be used for.

The issue isn’t whether GM needs money…they obviously do…the issue is that nothing GM has presented gives any reassurance that giving them money is in any way going to ensure future success; at best, all it does is delay immediate failure.
This is what I meant by pessimism. Everything they've presented provides reassurance of their future success. The keyword is FUTURE. And these loans are designed to get them there. I'm not trying to be an ass...so sorry if this comes off that way: but did you read GM's submitted report?:shrug:

Hold on a moment…if taxpayers end up giving them $72B and we wind up with a “functioning domestic automotive industry” they had dam well pay it back hadn’t they?

If they don’t pay it back then it would mean, would it not, that they have failed and there is no “functioning domestic automotive industry” which means that the tax payers are not only out the $72B but the additional $170B; a total of $242B (assuming of course that the $170B is a figure in any way based in reality).
That would suck wouldn't it...and if we're going to deal in the realm of pre-destined failure; I say what's $34 more billion? Heap it on there...

But seriously; the risks associated with the loans are dwarfed by those associated with a total meltdown as a result of not getting the loans.

Aside with the basic problem many Americans (me included) have with the Federal government giving taxpayer money to any private business;
This is a totally different topic; but the days of a truly government-free economy are over. And if you the country to succeed in this "global economy"...then I suggest you support your domestic industries.

On another, related note: you don't like the government giving away money to businesses; understandable...This loan is expected to be paid back. How do you feel about the government GIVING companies like Honda, and Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars to build plants here? GIVING.:no:

what many of us are worried about is that the bill wouldn’t be “just” the $72B but that it won’t work and the bill be the $242B.

Well than you're going to have to take a chance, and it gets pretty simple...much like Scott's choice:

On one hand, you're going to give them an opportunity to succeed. One that, imo, is well worth it.

On the other hand, out of fear you're going to deny that opportunity, and guarantee that $170+ billion pricetag onto yourselves.

Behind all the specifics, and details -- that's what it boils down to. Decide where you stand on THAT choice; then figure out how you'd like to accomplish it.


Might I suggest a trip to your local ophthalmologist?

Just kidding! :)
:lol:

...This loan is expected to be paid back. How do you feel about the government GIVING companies like Honda, and Toyota hundreds of millions of dollars to build plants here? GIVING.
Rather than keep a long argument going I'll just address this issue which actually, was discussed (by me) just a few posts above.

City/county/state/quasi governmental entities offer incentives in many forms (outright reimbursement, tax abatements, infrastructure upgrades, etc. in order to entice a manufacturer to build their plant "here" instead of "there"...I don't like the practice but the incentives are equally available to any nameplate that wants to build a new plant (as GM has already found when it built its "Saturn" plan in Spring Hill, Tennessee).

As I said, I don't like the process but the process is not "unfair" as Scott and other Domestic supports like to claim.

As I said, I don't like the process but the process is not "unfair" as Scott and other Domestic supports like to claim.
The act itself might not be unfair...but then coupled with such anti-domestic sentiments in congress...I certainly see it as unfair, and a$$-backwards to boot.

The act itself might not be unfair...but then coupled with such anti-domestic sentiments in congress...I certainly see it as unfair, and a$$-backwards to boot.
Keep in mind that the incentives don't come from Congress.

What would actually be "a$$-backwards" would be if GM was going to the same city/county/state/quasi governmental bodies that had given these incentives to others; asking for the same type of incentives; and getting the same treatment they have been receiving from Congress during this mess.

you are both annoying as hell, neither one of you are going to change the views of the other - so just shut up already.

That said, what I find most objectionable about statements like the one you (and others in this thread) made earlier is the insinuation that someone’s patriotism can be or should be measured on such a meaningless, shallow criteria as the nameplate on someone’s vehicle.

Even when “domestic” cars were truly domestic, it would have been shallow criteria; in today’s world it’s ridiculous nonsense to infer someone's love of country based on an automobile nameplate.

I find it most objectionable that you refuse to acknowledge that globalism is an economic policy that will undermine the economic power of the United States - spreading our personal wealth out among the third world nations that live a meager existence. To look at a situation regarding Nissan, and try to justify it as "good" for America and our GDP/GNP fringes on ludicrous. Foreign comapnies coming here to assemble cars as a way to get around tarriffs is a POISON PILL, NOT a "good thing" for our economy. So to expect me to think that poisoning the US economy and sending our citizens into poverty is acceptable as "patriotic" seems a little far-fetched to say the least. Wanting me to reward you for poisoning our economy, pat you on the back, and thank you for doing it under the banner of being patriotic is outright insanity. So forgive me for not accusing those who I feel are killing our economy of being "patriotic". It seems a bit hypocritical to me to say "I'm a patriot and I love my country, I just don't mind if I kill it's economy and cause my fellow citizens to lose their jobs while I support my own."

There have been numerous posts on this board about how foreign companies have violated state and local laws in attempts to keep unions out of their plants, and preventing organized labor. The people working in these plants are being paid a fraction of what they are worth, but MUST take the jobs because their is nothing else for them. THAT is not "good will" or "caring for your people"... that is being opportunistic and being a shrewd, opportunistic business. Maybe there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of a situation - it depends on what your personal morals are made up of - but don't try to paint it with a brush of a different shade... at least be honest and call it what it is.

I'm really happy that you are making money at a job and supporting your family and your local income. I'd much rather see you dong what you are doing as opposed to being homeless, or on welfare, having me and others paying for you to live here, etc. But don't expect me to ignore everything I know about our domestic economic situation because just you have found a tiny piece of poisonous heaven that works for great for you.

I'll give you credit though - I think you just solved the entire crisis for the big 3. The new plan for recovery for the big 3 is to close every plant they are currently operating and leave all the communities theyare in - just walk away. In turn, they should announce plans to open brand-new, state of the art facilities in other states, and go for a bidding war on incentives, cash, and tax packages. Ford can close their KTP facility in Kentucky, and build and open a new truck plant in say Tennessee or Alabama, get a few million in incentives, property given to them for free, 5-10 years of tax breaks, etc. It'll work! Ford, GM, and Chrysler should all do this. They could be tax-free organizations for 5 years, bank billions in cash, get millions in free land, and reduce their labor costs as they rehire local workers at much lower hourly rates.
Know where all that incentive money, tax breaks, and developmental property will be financed from?
Know who is ultimtely going to pay for it?
The TAXPAYER.
Hey, Nissan has already reaped the benefit of economic incentives and policies with their plant builds here... only seems fair for the others to exploit the same taxpayer-funded policies too, right? Gotta love our government!!! :thumb:

So how does that approach look any better than getting a loan from the government? :shrug:
So how is it fair that Nissan is allowed to take these steps and actions and get the financial benefits from OUR government, when the government where their headquarters is located not only refuses to allow FORD and GM to sell cars there, but they also refuse to allow us to build plants there and manufacture there. Opening the gates to Japan would not cure the ills of the US market, but it would be a step towards making the playing field more level. Bottom line is, their governments (Asian) protect and promote their industry, where ours seems content to let things fall where they may and not put any teeth into fair and equal trade. I personally want to thank the hundreds of greedy @ssho1es that have been in Washington for the last 30 years lining their bank accounts and taking their money to the bank at the expense of policy, trade agreements, and untold lost US jobs - all for the benefit of corporate greed. They'd probably sell their own grandma for good profit - "profit" doesn't make it "right".

One last thing... from Webster's
Main Entry: manufacture
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): manufactured; manufactur·ing \-ˈfak-chə-riŋ, -ˈfak-shriŋ\
Date: 1648
transitive verb
1: to make into a product suitable for use
2 a: to make from raw materials by hand or by machinery b: to produce according to an organized plan and with division of labor c: prefabricate <a manufactured home>
3: invent , fabricate <known to manufacture evidence>

Main Entry: as·sem·bly
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsem-blē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural as·sem·blies
Etymology: Middle English assemblee, from Anglo-French, from assembler
Date: 14th century
1: a company of persons gathered for deliberation and legislation, worship, or entertainment
2capitalized : a legislative body ; specifically : the lower house of a legislature
3: a meeting of a student body and usually faculty for administrative, educational, or recreational purposes
4 a: assemblage 1 b: assemblage 2
5: a signal for troops to assemble or fall in
6 a: the fitting together of manufactured parts into a complete machine, structure, or unit of a machine b: a collection of parts so assembled
7: the translation of assembly language to machine language by an assembler

It saddened me to see you post "BTW; at least in my thesaurus; "assemble" is a synonym of "manufacture".

Manufacture is the conversion of raw goods and resources into tangible items of elevated value. He who does the manufacturing is the one that reaps the benefit of the elevated value - it is a creation of wealth. If you don't manufacture, you don't create tangible wealth - period. Assembling... just a step in the manufacturing process... sometimes. There is a HUGE difference.

you are both annoying as hell, neither one of you are going to change the views of the other - so just shut up already.
Thanks for such a helpful contribution.

eh, this dealer sounds like an idiot. I can't really high five his courage and enthusiasm because i think he may of did it out of anger and fear.

This guy just showed his poker hand to the public and it says "i got nothing"

How so?

I don't agree 100% with his method, but I applaud him for his conviction to his beliefs. Remember, you don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

BTW - I doubt the guy did this out of anger and fear. Most dealers are pretty well-off anyway, and running 1-minute spots on over a dozen stations was not free. Likewise, he might be angry with the economy and the situation, but producing and scheduling a 1-minute spot, editing, and airing it is not a "knee-jerk" reaction.

I still have not seen the actual ad yet, but I will admit that the Rice-ready / road ready" comment was not beneficial to his argument. I truely hope he has some "educated" people help him produce a follow-up that is loaded with data and facts to back him up now. You know - a Ross-Perot kind of thing with charts and graphs. :yes: ;)

Thanks for such a helpful contribution.

call em like i see em - you'll just keep going into a 36 page e-war debate about why your point of view is correct and at the end neither of you will agree on anything.

Are pointless arguments fun for you? Or you just have alot of spare time?

….
Frankly, your writing style, word choices/combinations sometimes makes it difficult to decipher your meaning. Nevertheless, I’ll take a stab at replying to some of your statements – I have no expectation of changing your mind but perhaps some others will find it useful.


I find it most objectionable that you refuse to acknowledge that globalism is an economic policy that will undermine the economic power of the United States - spreading our personal wealth out among the third world nations that live a meager existence.
That is an opinion which you are perfectly entitled to hold. However, I suspect your opinion is based more on fear and what you’ve heard other people say than on any quantifiable/objective evaluation.

Suffice it to say, I simply don’t agree.

In any case, I submit that it is no one's "policy"; what it is, is a reality fueled by many different things (technology being a major component)...as such, no one, not even the United States can afford to ignore it or try to hide from it (such as through protectionism)...economies either find a way to compete and thrive in it or will be swept to economic obscurity.


To look at a situation regarding Nissan, and try to justify it as "good" for America and our GDP/GNP fringes on ludicrous. Foreign comapnies coming here to assemble cars as a way to get around tarriffs is a POISON PILL, NOT a "good thing" for our economy.
In the past thirty years, transplant automakers have built 70 or so manufacturing facilities and invested over $40Billion in the U.S.; directly employs tens of thousands and employs many, many times that indirectly…if that’s a “poison pill” in your mind then so be it.

And BTW, had Congress (at the behest of the Detroit Three/the UAW) not put up those tariffs, there would be no tariffs that foreign companies needed to get around. Also, presenting “getting around tariffs” as the sole motivation for transplants to build plants here is a very myopic way to look at the issue.


So to expect me to think that poisoning the US economy and sending our citizens into poverty is acceptable as "patriotic" seems a little far-fetched to say the least.
I expressed nothing of the kind; quite the opposite in fact and no one is “sending our citizens into poverty”.


Wanting me to reward you for poisoning our economy, pat you on the back, and thank you for doing it under the banner of being patriotic is outright insanity. So forgive me for not accusing those who I feel are killing our economy of being "patriotic". It seems a bit hypocritical to me to say "I'm a patriot and I love my country, I just don't mind if I kill it's economy and cause my fellow citizens to lose their jobs while I support my own."
What is insane is your ability to construe that I said anything of the kind or requested a “reward” or a “pat on the back” or to be called “patriotic”…perhaps you need to re-read what I actually did write.

What is insane (and incredibly shallow) is to infer someone’s patriotism or lack thereof to what nameplate is on a vehicle they choose to buy.

I assume that the “job losses” you are referring to are in the domestic automotive sector? If so then let’s be clear here shall we; apart from the business decisions that the Detroit Three and the UAW have made since the 1960s; there is ZERO reason by GM, Ford and Chrysler can’t be vibrant and extremely profitable…if you want to find someone to blame for Detroit’s troubles, you need to look to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Any challenges presented to Detroit by foreign competition could have been met and met successfully; the fact the Detroit chose not to do so is not the fault of the foreign competition.


There have been numerous posts on this board about how foreign companies have violated state and local laws in attempts to keep unions out of their plants, and preventing organized labor.
I’m sure accusations made in internet postings carry a lot of weight with you but tell me, what evidence of such violations do you have beyond internet postings? Can you cite even one case where a transplant nameplate was found guilty of violating any of those “state” and “local” laws? If there are any such cases, were the guilty parties punished?


The people working in these plants are being paid a fraction of what they are worth, but MUST take the jobs because their is nothing else for them. THAT is not "good will" or "caring for your people"... that is being opportunistic and being a shrewd, opportunistic business. Maybe there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of a situation - it depends on what your personal morals are made up of - but don't try to paint it with a brush of a different shade... at least be honest and call it what it is.
Just who are you to decide, on behalf of these “people”, that they are being paid less than they are worth or are being taken advantage of? This may come as a shock to you but there was employment in states with transplant facilities before the transplant facilities were built – you make it sound as if these poor, disadvantaged, people either work as near slaves for the big bad transplant automaker or they go on welfare!

The transplant manufacturers provide good, well-paying jobs at a competitive rate and are good corporate citizens and valued members of their communities; it isn't for you or anyone else to decide "on behalf" of those who take those jobs that they are being taken advantage of - doing so is an insult to every worker in every one of those facilities.


…I'll give you credit though - I think you just solved the entire crisis for the big 3. The new plan for recovery for the big 3 is to close every plant they are currently operating and leave all the communities theyare in - just walk away. In turn, they should announce plans to open brand-new, state of the art facilities in other states, and go for a bidding war on incentives, cash, and tax packages…

Know who is ultimtely going to pay for it? The TAXPAYER.
As I’ve said multiple times in this thread and many more times in the past, I don’t like the “incentive package” business. However, if you want to change the system; stop blaming the companies who take advantage of it (including GM) and start electing different mayors, county commissioners and governors.


It saddened me to see you post "BTW; at least in my thesaurus; "assemble" is a synonym of "manufacture".
I didn’t write the thesaurus; I simply quoted it…I’m sorry it made you sad.


Manufacture is the conversion of raw goods and resources into tangible items of elevated value. He who does the manufacturing is the one that reaps the benefit of the elevated value - it is a creation of wealth. If you don't manufacture, you don't create tangible wealth - period. Assembling... just a step in the manufacturing process... sometimes. There is a HUGE difference.
Strange, one might say convenient, how you completely ignore the majority of my post that you are referencing.

Apparently, taking raw rolled steel and stamping it into body parts and frames and forging engine parts is just “assembling” to you…if so then you need more help than Merriam can give you.

In any case, if you truly think that what goes on in a typical GM plant is substantially different that what goes on in a Toyota/Honda/Nissan/VW/BMW plant then you either haven’t been in those plants or you just refuse to let facts get in the way of your opinion.

call em like i see em - you'll just keep going into a 36 page e-war debate about why your point of view is correct and at the end neither of you will agree on anything.

Are pointless arguments fun for you? Or you just have alot of spare time?
Some would call it discussion (which is what discussion forums are usually about).

Do I enjoy the discussions? Yes...if I didn't, I'd just read journals and look at raw data.

In any case, I don't seek to annoy you but if my posts do then sorry!

Some would call it discussion (which is what discussion forums are usually about).

Do I enjoy the discussions? Yes...if I didn't, I'd just read journals and look at raw data.

In any case, I don't seek to annoy you but if my posts do then sorry!

What you call a "discussion" other people call abrasive and inappropriate. Your comments and constant challenges are more baiting than anything and no one enjoys the constant frustration. Sorry or not, you have worn out your welcome. This site is PRO-GM as you are well aware of yet you are clearly not on this site for that reason. Presenting the truth in a respectful and unbiased manner or in a method that is beneficial to the goal of this site is one thing, but leading people into argument repeatedly is another. Regardless if your views are true or not, the way they are presented rubs this community the wrong way and does no good except for you and your desire to watch people struggle to prove a counterpoint. Thank you for your contributions but they are better suited elsewhere and are no longer required here. Anyone else can follow if they do not understand the reasoning and benefit to this community as a result of this decision which is not open for further argument and any correspondence regarding this will be disregarded.

In the same spirit, while I have no expectation of changing your mind, I think other people might find what I have to say interesting.

In the past thirty years, transplant automakers have built 70 or so manufacturing facilities and invested over $40Billion in the U.S.; directly employs tens of thousands and employs many, many times that indirectly…if that’s a “poison pill” in your mind then so be it.

$40 billion and tens of thousands of jobs in 30 years?

If I have counted correctly, GM alone operates or has operated 72 plants in the U.S, 47 of which are still operating today. One of those is scheduled to close in a couple weeks, so call it 46. The oldest of these still in operation began in 1919. GM's "Buick City" plant in Flint, MI was in operation for 95 years before closing in '99.

Continuing on, Ford has 40 plants, 30 of which are still in operation, with three scheduled to close in the next couple years. The oldest began operation in 1924.

Chrysler has 22 currently in operation, but I didn't find a list of former plants or any scheduled closings. Chrysler's oldest currently operating plant opened in 1917.

Toyota has six, plus two they don't own but they have contracted to build their cars. That's counting at least one that isn't even completed yet. The oldest of these began producing cars in 1988. Honda has two, the oldest of which was opened in 1982.

I don't think I even need to find the actual financials and do the math for you to get the point. The measure of foreign automakers' contributions to the U.S. economy seem like big numbers, but only until you compare them to those of the domestic automakers, and then they seem ridiculously small.

In the same spirit, while I have no expectation of changing your mind....

OK, considering you're replying to a post made by a guy who's now banned from this site, don't you think that kind of goes without saying? :think: It's not like he's around to read what you said and then reply "You know, I stand corrected. You're completely right."

How so?

I don't agree 100% with his method, but I applaud him for his conviction to his beliefs. Remember, you don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

BTW - I doubt the guy did this out of anger and fear. Most dealers are pretty well-off anyway, and running 1-minute spots on over a dozen stations was not free. Likewise, he might be angry with the economy and the situation, but producing and scheduling a 1-minute spot, editing, and airing it is not a "knee-jerk" reaction.

I still have not seen the actual ad yet, but I will admit that the Rice-ready / road ready" comment was not beneficial to his argument. I truely hope he has some "educated" people help him produce a follow-up that is loaded with data and facts to back him up now. You know - a Ross-Perot kind of thing with charts and graphs. :yes: ;)


I don't doubt some dealerships are well off but in general i think they are well aware of the bad position they are in. I do think the "buy american" rally cry falls on deaf ears. I've never thought this encouraged any new customers. Just stirring the emotions of those existing Big three customers.

This ad may have been well thought out but it comes across to me as a rant. It also strikes a nerve in some. How that encourages anyone to spend hard earned money i don't know. More importantly how does that sell product to someone new ? A previous Toyota owner for example.

To say this guy's marketing approach is abrasive would be an understatement. :lol:

I don't know if I can blame him though. The domestics have been using quality studies and announcing awards won in their advertisements for a while now - I'm not even sure it's doing any good. I suppose it's time to just come out and say what a lot of domestic fans have been thinking for the better part of 30 years now. At least it plays to some emotions.

OK, considering you're replying to a post made by a guy who's now banned from this site, don't you think that kind of goes without saying? :think: It's not like he's around to read what you said and then reply "You know, I stand corrected. You're completely right."

Banning him doesn't prevent him from reading -- only from posting.

Besides, while it doesn't appear to be (based on Jason's post), it could be a temporary ban.

Maybe it was this crazy thing called freedom to decide from themselves. I mean, I know that free thought is shunned upon and all by the union, but people still possess it.

You guys are brainwashed beyond belief. Heaven forbid somebody buy another companies car because they want to. You guys can be un-freakin'-believable at times. :|

Of course people should have freedom of choice to buy whatever they want to buy. The problem is that a majority of people (ignorant consumers) make their choice based on their false assumption of "imports are flawless/domestics fall apart". I am convinced that if the everyday consumer had a clue, a higher percentage would buy American-owned auto company products.

I'm still waiting for someone with a straight face to tell me that a 98 Lumina was a better car than a 98 Accord or a 98 Camry.:|


According to the federal governments' website, nhtsa.com, for the 1998 model year: the Lumina and Camry are tied at recalls of two each, while the Accord has sixteen. :eek: :eek:

you are both annoying as hell, neither one of you are going to change the views of the other - so just shut up already.
What a brilliant statement, thanks for letting me know...:rolleyes:

Okay, guys...no need to keep the griping going. Back on the subject, please. :)

I agree his use of the term "rice", opens the guy up, to the use of the race card by "journalists". I don't think this makes him an idiot, or racist, just a passionate guy IMO. Who for whatever reason "get's it". So maybe he could have articulated his point a little better. Doesn't make his point any less valid. He stuck his neck out and I applaud that!! I would urge any Americans in that area considering purchasing a Ford, to get down there and give this brave dealer a shot at your business! And also props to ProudPony for post #44.....>>> Bravo man!!

Okay, guys...no need to keep the griping going. Back on the subject, please. :)
My apologies...sensitive subject, and all.:(

I give big credit to this dealer. Here's to hoping more put out ads just like this (maybe not as blunt).:yes:

Damn, Dan Daly. I liked you better when you were a Clint Eastwood character. :( :)

As someone with (current? former?) military ties, I'm sure you appreciate the contributions that GM and the rest of the big 3 have made toward our country's defense.

But I'm sure the next time the SHTF, we'll be able to ask China and Japan really nicely to build us some planes, tanks, and munitions...

Anyway, I just got back from visiting my brother and his wife in Germany. Over there you see a stunning quantity of domestic (to them) vehicles. VW, BMW, MB, Opel, Mini, Smart, etc. in large numbers. In much lesser numbers (based on my observations) there were imports like Peugot, Citroen, Fiat, Honda, Toyota, Saab, Volvo, etc.

In Japan, they seem to be even more nationalistic in their product purchasing, with government policies that clearly encourage their home industry.

Why is it that here in America, where yes you are correctly free to be able to choose what you'd like to drive, so much of the public has no sense of nationality in our products? Why do some seem in fact to enjoy watching our struggles? Why do government policies not lean toward favoring us instead of the competition? What is with the general "blame America first" attitude of recent decades, or this seeming belief that the Euros and the Asians have life all figured out and everything we touch is corrupted by greed and/or incompetence? I don't get it.

:shrug:

:(

^^^Joe makes an awesome point.^^^ One that I happen to agree with. This "blame America first" crowd, has it's roots, and a major mouthpiece in the media, which is precisely why I despise them so much! They hate everything American, especially GM...and their influence has been incredibly far reaching, as we have all been witness to. Why this is so hard for some folks to see, is beyond me!

.....I'm sure you appreciate the contributions that GM and the rest of the big 3 have made toward our country's defense.

But I'm sure the next time the SHTF, we'll be able to ask China and Japan really nicely to build us some planes, tanks, and munitions...

That is a point way above the average American consumer's (read: sheep) head and one of my biggest gripes.

I think this guy near Savannah has huge stones and I applaud him for stepping up. I actually do agree that the "rice" comments may be over the top, but it is his nickel for the add.

Next time folks get worried about the unemployment rates, they can go hop in their import and head to Wal-Mart. They will feel much better in no time :cry:

Allen

What ever happens to the Big 3, they get the loan or survive bankrupcy, I hope they make. I for one just don't get excited about anything that the foreign car makes have right now. I was hoping to buy a 2012 Camaro and have two anniversary cars, and now who knows. On another note this buy American thing reminds me of some other emotional time for this country. I remember watching tons of people putting American flag stickers on their Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's, and everything else after 9/11. Real patriotic when you bought your car weren't you.

Still drives me nuts when I see the flag on foreign cars!

Still drives me nuts when I see the flag on foreign cars!

:yes:

Damn, Dan Daly. I liked you better when you were a Clint Eastwood character. :( :)

Well one was a character and the other earned TWO Medals of Honor in real life. :shrug: