977/978 springs, Hydra-Rev question

I am going to be running a CC XE cam next year with the #3192/3196 224/236 lobes (.567/.585" lift with the 1.5 rockers I will be using). I have been using the CC #978 springs with 106lbs of seat pressure and 368lbs open with my current 214/224 XE cam (.535/.567"). Presently I run the combo to 6,000rpm. Next year I plan to spin it a little faster, perhaps to 6,200-6,300.

Should I go to the #977 spring (133lbs seat, 419lbs open), use #978 again, or maybe go #978 with the Hydra-Rev? Or some other spring altogether? I tend to stick with Comp as I have always had good luck with their stuff.

Opinions welcome.

Rich Krause

Rich,

Bret used the 3190/3192 and the 3192/3196 with 1.6's.

He used the 977's but at 155 seated pressure. This was for an engine never to exceed 6800. The spring choices and seated load came from as high up as you can get @ cc.

With 1.5's and NE rpm of 6500, I think your idea of 977's @133 (1.900 installed height) sounds good. Hey, it's time for new springs anyway, right?

I'll run this by Bret today.

I aslo have some what the same cam but a little less lift xe 224/236-502/520. Does this cam need double coil springs with such little lift?. I will be using the stock 1.5 rockers for a couple more months so the lift will be the same. Btq i do have comp 987 springs but i will switch to some single coil springs if dont need the double's.

thanks

155lb seat pressure sounds like a lot for a hydraulic lifter. I'm running a cc 3314/3315 with crower 68390-3 springs. 115 on the seat and 355 over the nose. The hydra-rev adds 32lbs closed and 50 lbs open @.340 lift, to the lifter body. I shift at 6300, but have taken it to 6500 with no issues.

Thanks for the responses so far. I am looking forward to what Bret has to say!

Rich Krause

Another thing you'll need to consider is the amount of boost against the intake valve. As the valve closes, the boost will increase the load against the spring at the point where the spring is decreasing in pressure. The 977 with the hydra-rev is what I'd recommend.

FWIW Rich, I think your choice of the 977 @ about 130 lbs seat and probably about 380 lbs open would be enough with the use of a rev-kit. Remember that you springs will lose a little pressure after the first few heat cycles.
Good luck.

-Mindgame

Rich,

I would go with the 977 installed @ 1.850" w/ a seat pressure of 155 @ least. With the good Comp Lifters and that much spring a Rev Kit really isin't needed. With the 1.6:1's I didn't run a Rev Kit, but I should have run 177 at the seat to help the 6000-6500rpm range rather than the 155. This was on a 3190/3192 with 1.6's, on the 3192/3196 I would have rather run 929 springs because they are better for the extra lift or a Rev Kit if I wanted to run the 1.6's.

The rev kit is a good idea in case something breaks like a pushrod or rocker arm because it will keep positive pressure on the lifter and you will not loose oil pressure and end up breaking more things.

The 977 should be more than enough spring for you then. With a Rev Kit as a safetly margin.

Bret

I went with some Crane springs since they had low seat pressure...My head porter also said that Crane has very good springs..

Cody

Originally posted by SStrokerAce
Rich,

I would go with the 977 installed @ 1.850" w/ a seat pressure of 155 @ least. With the good Comp Lifters and that much spring a Rev Kit really isin't needed. With the 1.6:1's I didn't run a Rev Kit, but I should have run 177 at the seat to help the 6000-6500rpm range rather than the 155. This was on a 3190/3192 with 1.6's, on the 3192/3196 I would have rather run 929 springs because they are better for the extra lift or a Rev Kit if I wanted to run the 1.6's.

The rev kit is a good idea in case something breaks like a pushrod or rocker arm because it will keep positive pressure on the lifter and you will not loose oil pressure and end up breaking more things.

The 977 should be more than enough spring for you then. With a Rev Kit as a safetly margin.

Bret

Bret,
Have you really had much luck in running that cam at 160 lbs at the seat for extended periods? Not just talking a stint on a dyno here. I'm geniunely curious, not just trying to be my usual smartypants self.:)

A friend of mine just finished up a 360 (.060 over 350), actually the engine was built by Hans Feustal Racing Engines. With our goals in hand they used the solid roller Comp XR280R, 242/248 .575/.585 110deg lsa (I'm guessing at the lift #s, but they're in that ballpark). The engine made it's peak power at 6700 with use of that cam and a Isky rev-kit. The springs were setup at 165 seat and a little better than 400 open. I've also run a very similiar hydraulic Xtreme grind (3316/3317) in a 383 that peaked at 6300 rpm, also using a rev-kit and a seat pressure of 130 seat and about 380 open. The Hans Feustal example made one of the nicest dyno graphs I've ever seen... no 'surge' dips along the way. So you see where my question of that much spring on such a mild grind is coming from? I was always taught to use the least amount of spring necessary to do the job... ala Vizard. Again, we are talking about an engine that Rich says will peak at about 6300 rpm max.
Thanks.

-Mindgame

Mindgame,

I was thinking along that line too with usung a 987 spring orignally but Billy Goldbolt @ Comp suggested the 977 and it controls the valve on the lifter much better and is much better on seat bounce and it actually picked up average power in my simulations because of this better control. (yes the program is that good if you have the stiffnesses of the valvetrain!) those lobes don't need the spring pressure just because of the lift, but they need it for the control too.

The engine was designed to be a Max Effort for that contest on the dyno but also to bolt into a car and drive and Billy knew that when we asked him about the setup. The springs will need to be checked to see that they maintain pressure on the seat and rate, but other than that he said they should work fine for street use.

A 214/224 that peaked at 6000-6100 and could run to 6900 easy worked fine with the 977.

Bret

Bret: what lifters with the 977?

Rich Krause

Well.. I gave Nick at Nutek a call and he recommended the 977 with the hydra rev kit... Even for my low lift version of the XE cam. Even though I was only going to rev to 6000-6200rpm.. He told me that the hydra rev kit did in fact help out... But he also recommended other springs... not sure which ones they were, I'll post later, but he said it was dependant on the installed height... He told me that he had used the 977 with the AFRs a lot... But he did recommend the hydra rev kit.

Originally posted by The Highlander
Well.. I gave Nick at Nutek a call and he recommended the 977 with the hydra rev kit... Even for my low lift version of the XE cam. Even though I was only going to rev to 6000-6200rpm.. He told me that the hydra rev kit did in fact help out... But he also recommended other springs... not sure which ones they were, I'll post later, but he said it was dependant on the installed height... He told me that he had used the 977 with the AFRs a lot... But he did recommend the hydra rev kit.

Thanks!

Rich Krause

Rich,

I used 885-16 on my engine but any Pro Magnum Hyd Roller Lifter from Comp Works.

I would like to see dyno results on a Rev Kit with everything done right. Just to see if it helps in the 6000-7000 RPM range.

Bret

According to nick... He claims it does help... I dont know if he was trying to sell me the kit though, but he claimed that after 6k the engine will loose no matter what springs and that the rev kit was the only thing that overcame that problem. He saw gains(although they are not gains, but overcame losses) of 50HP.

I like rev kits and I've run them on everything I've ever built since here a few years back when one saved me from grenading a very expensive race motor. That was a solid roller motor and I felt it a little ridiculous to run a kit on it but Scott Shafiroff built the engine and was pretty adamant about it. If you pay someone to build you a high zoot motor, you take their advice. The extra little bit of valvetrain help is just as good a reason as any to use them.

-Mindgame

Guys, thanks for all the input. I ordered the cam, #977 springs, and Pro-Magnum lifters today. I also ordered the D1-SC and started to pack up the S-trim for Chris Bennight. The lifters are on BO until March, but the season doesn't start until May 1 around here anyway.

I haven't decided about the rev kit, keeping in mind that I am not going to be revving past ~6,200 I am not sure I need it. Any further thoughts/comments will be welcome, as always.

Rich Krause

If you have the $ why not? its ~$224.00

I talked once to the people at AFR and they said I didn't need it up to 6k, maybe a bit more... But nick said otherwise, it always helps, specially on boosted cars!!!! One thing the AFR people never took into consideration... Nick said it was the only way to overcome the floating with the boost. For me he told me not to worry for now since I have only 4.5 psi... But for 15+psi... he said he recommended it very much..

Give him a call.. he is a good person to talk to.. very informative... I say go for it. I will go for it very soon... probably before my car comes out again with the 9psi.

On a sidenote... Rich, I wish I would have heard of your setup. I've spent aroun $1200 for mine and still need a few more parts... nice deal....

Rich, relative data considered, I'm a bit surprised a cam mfr. would recommend such spring pressure with a hydralic setup. (shrug)

Originally posted by arnie
Rich, relative data considered, I'm a bit surprised a cam mfr. would recommend such spring pressure with a hydralic setup. (shrug)

I am too. The rule of thumb that I have been familiar with is 350lbs max open pressure for hydraulic rollers. The #977 springs will be ~400psi open, but Comp said these should work with the Pro-Magnum lifters. We shall see, I will report back.

BTW: I ended up ordering the F1 blower from ATI. We'll see how that works too!

Rich Krause

Ended up going big with the blower!!!

Whats springs did you end up using?

The #977 springs are sitting in my "pile o' parts".

Rich Krause

No hydra rev kit?

You haven't finished the car yet?

Originally posted by The Highlander
No hydra rev kit?

You haven't finished the car yet?

Damn, you are cruel. The dash needs to be taken out, the cage installed, dash reinstalled, then the engine and tranny have to go back in, the tank dropped and the fuel system installed, and it has to be tuned. I'll be lucky if it's the end of May.

Depending on the dyno results, I expect to be shifting in the 6,400rpm range, so the Hydra-Rev would be a waste for me.

Rich Krause

Well.. I had to remove my dash and resinstall it.. I did drop the tank and did major work on the engine... I semi-tuned it.. It took me about 2 months of my hard work :) so I know what you are going for.. I had an accident and the car was returned to me by february... I finished it this week... I need more tunning though...

ACtually... I will be shifting at 6000rpm, and I may need it.. I dont think my springs are enough... We shall see...

Originally posted by rskrause
Damn, you are cruel. The dash needs to be taken out, the cage installed, dash reinstalled, then the engine and tranny have to go back in, the tank dropped and the fuel system installed, and it has to be tuned. I'll be lucky if it's the end of May.

Depending on the dyno results, I expect to be shifting in the 6,400rpm range, so the Hydra-Rev would be a waste for me.

Rich Krause

Rich,
Did you get your car together and if so how do you like your new setup?
CT

ps-still struggling with spring choice

FWIW I had the heads freshened up, new springs, etc in prep for the s-trim/new motor. I have 977's @ 1.875" and they measured 142lbs seat +- 3lbs. (lowest was 140, highest 145). Total pressure @ 1.275 ranged from from 408-415. This will be on a 3190/3192 w/ 1.6's (116lsa, 116IC)

My old 987's, after 80k miles (:) a bit much) only measured around 80lbs @ 1.85, and 245lbs @ 1.25. I think I will be changing these out at 20k miles or so.

I did manage to get one of the new sets of comp-r lifters that are floating around - they are stamped differently than the old versions, and I think it's a different manufacturer - but comp claims they are the same internally/as far as performance is concerned.

No rev kit at this point

Still will be another few months before the motor is broken in and ready for the blower to be hooked up, but right now I am pretty confident the springs should have no problems.

Chris

Originally posted by brand-x
Rich,
Did you get your car together and if so how do you like your new setup?
CT

ps-still struggling with spring choice

I went with 978's installed at 1.850". The seat pressure was ~120psi and they measured ~360 when compressed 0.600". The motor is in, the fuel system is in and runs. The tranny fits great. Just waiting on a driveshaft to do some testing. Haven't figured out what to do with finishing off the shifter, but it's mounted and ready to use even if it's not pretty.

PS: Chris - I won't forget about the T-Rex.

Rich Krause

Rich -
Can I ask why you went with those (pro mag) lifters and no the comp R's?

PS-
you never got back to me on 110 or 112LSA and 230 or 236 exhuast. your PM box is full...

Just 2 names for the same thing - comp r lifters = comp pro-magnums.


Chris

Originally posted by rskrause
I went with 978's installed.......

What, no guts? Or, just letting wisdom take over? :D

Originally posted by arnie
What, no guts? Or, just letting wisdom take over? :D

Aren't they the same thing? ;)

Originally posted by Chris B
FWIW I had the heads freshened up, new springs, etc in prep for the s-trim/new motor. I have 977's @ 1.875" and they measured 142lbs seat +- 3lbs. (lowest was 140, highest 145). Total pressure @ 1.275 ranged from from 408-415. This will be on a 3190/3192 w/ 1.6's (116lsa, 116IC)

My old 987's, after 80k miles (:) a bit much) only measured around 80lbs @ 1.85, and 245lbs @ 1.25. I think I will be changing these out at 20k miles or so.

No rev kit at this point

Chris

FWIW, Craig did our heads side by side, he quoted me the same numbers.. I don't have the rev kit either, but I wonder if I need it, and if I'm not floating valves and that's causing my miss???

I have the limiter set @ 6600, but I can't seem to get over 6k. I'm running a good bit of boost (and that effectively decreases the valve spring pressure (valve spring pressure - (valve radius * pi * boost) = effective valve spring pressure -roughly-)..

I'm running the comp-r lifters and 420# open pressure, but factor in the 20# boost and get 360# open pressure, do I need the rev-kit to spin it to 6400 rpm with the 224/236 low lift cam???

I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure out why my car won't rev.. :mad:

Originally posted by Brady_96Z
FWIW, Craig did our heads side by side, he quoted me the same numbers.. I don't have the rev kit either, but I wonder if I need it, and if I'm not floating valves and that's causing my miss???

I have the limiter set @ 6600, but I can't seem to get over 6k. I'm running a good bit of boost (and that effectively decreases the valve spring pressure (valve spring pressure - (valve radius * pi * boost) = effective valve spring pressure -roughly-)..

I'm running the comp-r lifters and 420# open pressure, but factor in the 20# boost and get 360# open pressure, do I need the rev-kit to spin it to 6400 rpm with the 224/236 low lift cam???

I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure out why my car won't rev.. :mad:

The boost only effects the seat (closed) pressure. It shouldn't interfere with the lifter following the cam lobe at high lift.

Rich Krause

Brady - didn't know that - awesome! Also FWIW I pulled off the springs and checked them myself and got the same thing (not that I didn't have faith - I just had lots of free time waiting on parts!)

What is the installed height on your springs - a byproduct of your lower lift is that you will not be seeing as much actual open pressure @ max lift unless your installed height is that much shorter to compensate - but I don't think that's an issue, it should still be enough total pressure - but at 20psi of boost you are loosing in the neighborhood of 60lbs of closed seat pressure - if you are at 140lbs nominally, then that puts you at 80lbs effective - which could be a problem at higher RPM.

With your lower lift you could go for a shorter installed height and still avoid coil bind issues, etc.

either that or our opti's toast :) Did you put in a new unit when you switched to the LTCC?


Chris

Originally posted by Brady_96Z
FWIW, Craig did our heads side by side, he quoted me the same numbers.. I don't have the rev kit either, but I wonder if I need it, and if I'm not floating valves and that's causing my miss???

I have the limiter set @ 6600, but I can't seem to get over 6k. I'm running a good bit of boost (and that effectively decreases the valve spring pressure (valve spring pressure - (valve radius * pi * boost) = effective valve spring pressure -roughly-)..

I'm running the comp-r lifters and 420# open pressure, but factor in the 20# boost and get 360# open pressure, do I need the rev-kit to spin it to 6400 rpm with the 224/236 low lift cam???

I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure out why my car won't rev.. :mad:

Brady...

How much did you preload those Comp R's? They really like no more than 1/4 turn....and I actually run mine with an 1/8th. If they are up around 1/2...I guarantee you will have what you describe.

Originally posted by treyZ28
Rich -
Can I ask why you went with those (pro mag) lifters and no the comp R's?

PS-
you never got back to me on 110 or 112LSA and 230 or 236 exhuast. your PM box is full...

112, 230

Rich Krause

Originally posted by rskrause
112, 230

Rich Krause :)

i was expecting 110 with 236

clear your pm box- dont want to hijack this thread

As I posted in another thread I swapped opti sparks tonight and it helps drastically. I still have a miss though..

I honestly don't know what hhe installed height on the 977's is, Craig just told me the open and seat pressures and assured me it would work with big boost.

I set the valves at 1/4 turn past 0, I remember the talk on the 4th gen list about leaving them loose. I need to readjust them and I'll probably leave them a little looser.

I'm taking this green bitch on the power tour starting in about 5 hours, I hope it makes it. :)

Rich, I'd feel bad about hijacking your thread if it wasnt 5 months old ;)

laterz
..Brady

Originally posted by Brady_96Z

SNIP
Rich, I'd feel bad about hijacking your thread if it wasnt 5 months old ;)

laterz
..Brady

LOL! Old threads never die....they just fade away......................

Rich Krause

I run the AFR LT4 220s w/1.550 springs... I'm looking for a spring for a hydraulic roller that can take .644" lift...any ideas? I'm stumped! Comp told me I needed the 930 springs but the book shows them as having .600" max lift.

--hate to ask my question on your thread but it looks like there are some folks on here that have experience with spring selection--

Originally posted by brand-x
I run the AFR LT4 220s w/1.550 springs... I'm looking for a spring for a hydraulic roller that can take .644" lift...any ideas? I'm stumped! Comp told me I needed the 930 springs but the book shows them as having .600" max lift.

--hate to ask my question on your thread but it looks like there are some folks on here that have experience with spring selection--

CC#930 installed at 1.950" would be able to support nearly 0.800" lift before coil bind, which is at 1.160". So 0.700" will be no problem if installed at 1.950" where's there's still 124lbs of seat pressure. If you need more seat pressure, even installing at 1.900" would probably be ok. The "max recommended" lift in the CXC catalog is extremely conservative. Basically, you can add 0.100" to get the real, safe maximum. I am not sure why they list them the way they do.

Rich Krause

I'm running the Comp 914 spring with my .640 lift HR. No problems here....other than trying to keep my foot out of it. :D