Cz28.com Car of the Year

Well, 2008 is coming to a close and I think a lot of really good products were put onto the market this year by a multitude of manufacturers. The Motor Trend Car of the Year obviously wasn't a popular choice here, so I decided to make this thread to see what people here's personal "Car of the Year" is.

I'd like to hear 3 candidates per poster just to get some range in the feedback. There's no specific criteria other than it being a new model and it's significance having impact in 2008.

My candidates would be:
GTR - Not gonna expand on this one... haha!

ZR1 - Wow, amazing car. I remember gawking at Ferrari Enzo numbers a few years back and now here's a car that can run with it, that I could actually realistically potentially own one day! Very fast, very capable, and still civil.

Hyundai Genesis - I got a chance to see and sit in one and its an impressively well put together car. Hyundai has come a long, long way in a short amount of time.

Pontiac G8 to me. Affordable, well rounded, great handling and performing... and attainable by a much wider audiance than the zr1 or the GTR..

Chevrolet Cobalt SS, runs the ring right up there with the V8 Camaro and gets 30 mpg all for just over $22k! Add in the new stage kit from GM and there is no contest.

BMW 1 Series for trying to develope a new segment in the U.S. (Smaller luxo segment) with a great drive train.

Pontiac G8 to me. Affordable, well rounded, great handling and performing... and attainable by a much wider audiance than the zr1 or the GTR..

:yes: G8 gets my vote as well.

I don't think the COTY should ever be something higher priced like a GTR, ZR1, Porsche, etc. etc.

:yes: G8 gets my vote as well.

I don't think the COTY should ever be something higher priced like a GTR, ZR1, Porsche, etc. etc.


I agree with your logic about COTY. The wife and I almost bought a Stryker Blue G8 about a month and a half ago, we could have done it, but the payments would have been higher than I wanted, and in this economic climate, we walked away.. Was NOT an easy thing to do. The car is truely awesome in all aspects. Powerful, Comfortable, Roomy, Decent on gas, and very stylish. If I had 10k to put down, I'd of done it, but at the time , we wanted our kitchen renovated more than the new car.

This should have been a poll actually. Some possible entries:

Audi A4 (2009)
BMW 1 series
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
Honda FCX Clarity
Hyundai Genesis
Ford Flex
Mercedes-Benz C-class
Nissan GTR
Pontiac G8

I still think out of this entire list, GTR stole the floor this year.

In judging shear significance and impact upon entry to the market place (in other words what car are the other manufacturers most taking notice of right now?). The Genesis, hands down.

I second the Hyundai Genisis coupe and the Pontiac G8.

I checked out the Flex at the LA press preview for the 1st time. It's very nice, and IMO if it overcomes it's price level (which I feel is a bit high) it will do very well as a minivan-SUV thingy.

I agree with the Hyundai Genesis and the BMW 1 series.

Next year, Camaro SS!

Hyundai Genesis for me as well.

However, if money were no object, I'd select the Corvette ZR1.

What are the criteria?

I can't decide between the ZR-1, G8, or Genesis.

What are the criteria?

I was basing my choice on the assumption we were using the MTCOTY criteria:

To be eligible for the award, a car must be a new model introduced in a given model year, or given a fundamental redesign for that year ("freshenings" are ineligible for the award). All vehicles are given the same battery of tests: standard car tests such as skid-pad ratings, acceleration and quarter-mile times, and evaluations of the interiors are combined with a track run conducted by SCCA-licensed testers and taking the cars out on normal roads to test their drivability under normal conditions and fuel economy.

When to we get to test the cars? ;)

The Genesis. Sure it may not have the press attention that the GTR has, but there is a lot of showroom traffic for people wanting to actually shop for a Genesis and buy one (who cannot afford the other Lux cars and this is in their pricerange).

Not to mention the content of the car for the price. Not to mention the build quality.

Hyundai is improving at an alarming rate. If only they cared more for sports cars, the Genesis Coupe might have gotten the V8.

I was basing my choice on the assumption we were using the MTCOTY criteria:

Don't you think that CZ28's collective intelligence is such that we could do better than copy what is arguably the least relevant car award out there?

Don't you think that CZ28's collective intelligence is such that we could do better than copy what is arguably the least relevant car award out there?:think: While I agree that their selection might be suspect, certainly the criteria isn't as subjective.

:think: While I agree that their selection might be suspect, certainly the criteria isn't as subjective.

What I'm saying is that their criteria allows them to pick entirely based on subjective measures. Also, the exclusion of models that haven't been updated for the current year bothers me. If nothing cool comes out in a given year, something really awesome from the previous year deserves to take the win.

I think that CZ28's COTY should be based on one criteria, and one criteria only: the car that we would be most likely to purchase for ourselves. :)

I think that CZ28's COTY should be based on one criteria, and one criteria only: the car that we would be most likely to purchase for ourselves. :)

In that case, make it the Pontiac G8 GT for me. I also think the Dodge Challenger R/T deserves mention.

I've been thinking, and I'm betting that if we took a vote, based on the criteria I gave above, the 2008 CZ28 COTY would be a 2002-2004 C5 Z06.

Yeah, that's right, a used car. :yes:

What I'm saying is that their criteria allows them to pick entirely based on subjective measures. Also, the exclusion of models that haven't been updated for the current year bothers me. If nothing cool comes out in a given year, something really awesome from the previous year deserves to take the win.

I think that CZ28's COTY should be based on one criteria, and one criteria only: the car that we would be most likely to purchase for ourselves. :)
Certainly, CZ28 can pick any criteria it wants but with respect to MT, how else would MT pick a COTY?

If they didn't limit their choices to those that are totally new to the market or have gone through a major model redesign; they would have to consider every vehicle model sold in the U.S. - they would never be done "evaluating".

As far as the subjective measurements go, isn't that how most people make a final decision about buying a car? Don't you think most people buy a new car based on highly subjective impressions such as "looks", how they feel sitting in the car; even how well they like how the controls for the radio are arranged?

Certainly, enthusiasts care about such things as HP, Tq, drag coefficient, 0-60, 60-0, etc, etc, but most people simply don't care about those things.

Objective measurements are fine but only take you so far; after that, it will always be a matter of opinion and MT's opinions are no less valuable than others'.

I've been thinking, and I'm betting that if we took a vote, based on the criteria I gave above, the 2008 CZ28 COTY would be a 2002-2004 C5 Z06.

Yeah, that's right, a used car. :yes:
Why would you pick a C5 Z06 over a C6 Z06???

Both are great cars but seems to me the C6 is the first among equals.

Certainly, CZ28 can pick any criteria it wants but with respect to MT, how else would MT pick a COTY?

If they didn't limit their choices to those that are totally new to the market or have gone through a major model redesign; they would have to consider every vehicle model sold in the U.S. - they would never be done "evaluating".
Simple -- you come up with a list of likely candidates for the award in advance, same as they do today. Car and Driver does it for all new cars (including models that have not changed) for their 10Best awards.

As far as the subjective measurements go, isn't that how most people make a final decision about buying a car? Don't you think most people buy a new car based on highly subjective impressions such as "looks", how they feel sitting in the car; even how well they like how the controls for the radio are arranged?
That's not the kind of subjectiveness I was referring to. I'm talking about overall evaluations for things like "significance", "design", and "engineering". A subjective opinion of the looks, ergonomics, etc. is still based on something concrete, but "significance" is based on nothing more than something the evaluators pulled out of their collective ass.

Why would you pick a C5 Z06 over a C6 Z06???

Both are great cars but seems to me the C6 is the first among equals.
Price, issues with cracking brake rotors, hard to drive fast...

Again, note that my criteria was what we would be most likely to purchase for ourselves. How many CZ28ers have C6 Z06's?

Simple -- you come up with a list of likely candidates for the award in advance, same as they do today. Car and Driver does it for all new cars (including models that have not changed) for their 10Best awards.
Car and Driver’s is an apples to oranges comparison – C&D’s list is an entirely different process with an entirely different purpose.

Coming up with any type of “list” without some stringent prequalification’s (such as being an all new vehicle) would still be an almost impossible task IMHO nor would it ever end the argument; somebody would always be POed that “their” favorite vehicle didn’t get considered.


That's not the kind of subjectiveness I was referring to. I'm talking about overall evaluations for things like "significance", "design", and "engineering". A subjective opinion of the looks, ergonomics, etc. is still based on something concrete, but "significance" is based on nothing more than something the evaluators pulled out of their collective ass.
The neither regions is where most opinions stem from; MT’s opinions are no less valuable than anybody elses.

Even when we disagree with them, the opinion of someone who spends his every working hour involved in the automotive world probably has a more thoughtful/reasoned opinion than most of the masses do.

Price, issues with cracking brake rotors, hard to drive fast...

Again, note that my criteria was what we would be most likely to purchase for ourselves. How many CZ28ers have C6 Z06's?
Seems to me I recall some problems with the initial Z06 as well (including something to do with the brakes)? I don’t know that the current Z06 is any more difficult to drive fast then the last generation; if so, then other than HP; it would sound like Chevy is taking a step in the wrong direction with the Z06.

I've no idea how many CZ28ers have a C6 Z06 but I would assume it’s likely more a matter of “money” than of desire.

This is comical and sickening all at the same time!!

This is comical and sickening all at the same time!!
Do you ever have come into a discussion with anything other than tired rhetoric or unintelligible proclamations?

Do you ever have come into a discussion with anything other than tired rhetoric or unintelligible proclamations?

IDK that looks pretty intelligible to me, and seems like you understood it too!! Which is more than I can say for you're retort here, which is actually unintelligible! How about you? Do you ever come into a thread without singing the praises of the great nissan?

IDK that looks pretty intelligible to me, and seems like you understood it too!!
:bs:


...Do you ever come into a thread without singing the praises of the great nissan?
Yes; including this thread for one.

OK let me simplify. And more TTT This is Camaro Z28.com, so naturally I'm bias, IMO there should be only one car on the list!

OK let me simplify. And more TTT This is Camaro Z28.com, so naturally I'm bias, IMO there should be only one car on the list!
I never knew that being biased meant that one has to turn off rational thought processes.

Car and Driver’s is an apples to oranges comparison – C&D’s list is an entirely different process with an entirely different purpose.
Yep, and I find that their purpose yields a much more useful result. MT COTY is simply a "hey, look at this cool new car" award, whereas C&D's 10Best can be construed as an actual recommendation for purchase.

Coming up with any type of “list” without some stringent prequalification’s (such as being an all new vehicle) would still be an almost impossible task IMHO nor would it ever end the argument; somebody would always be POed that “their” favorite vehicle didn’t get considered.
So, you're saying that C&D pulls off an "almost impossible" task a couple times every year (once for 10Best cars, once for 10Best trucks)? I'm sure it's a stressful time of year for them, but seriously, it simply can't be anywhere near as difficult as you say.

The neither regions is where most opinions stem from; MT’s opinions are no less valuable than anybody elses.
Let's just agree to disagree on that one. MT sucks. They can't write, they can't fact-check, and their annual award is for all intents and purposes meaningless.

One thing I like about MT lately: the handling analysis articles that they've done a couple times now. I appreciate the level of technical detail they bring forward.

Even when we disagree with them, the opinion of someone who spends his every working hour involved in the automotive world probably has a more thoughtful/reasoned opinion than most of the masses do.
You'd think, but somehow the info in C&D (and R&T, lest you think I have some unnatural attraction to C&D) seems more thoughtful and more well reasoned.

Seems to me I recall some problems with the initial Z06 as well (including something to do with the brakes)?
The '06 C6Z had some rear suspension tuning issues that were fixed in '07; AFAIK the brakes remain unchanged.

I don’t know that the current Z06 is any more difficult to drive fast then the last generation; if so, then other than HP; it would sound like Chevy is taking a step in the wrong direction with the Z06.
I would tend to agree. C&D did an article recently in which they compared the Z51, Z06, and ZR1, and they said that both the ZR1 and Z51 were pretty easy to control, but the Z06 was a pain.

I've no idea how many CZ28ers have a C6 Z06 but I would assume it’s likely more a matter of “money” than of desire.
Yep, and you'll note that I mentioned price on the list of reasons to choose the C5Z. :)

Yep, and I find that their purpose yields a much more useful result. MT COTY is simply a "hey, look at this cool new car" award, whereas C&D's 10Best can be construed as an actual recommendation for purchase.
Overall I agree; I think C&D's Ten Best list is more meaningful and for that matter, that C&D, in general, is a better publication than Motor Trend - however, I didn't know we were discussing which mag/which list is better...I was just pointing out that the two have different goals and probably shouldn't be compared as if they are equals. :)


So, you're saying that C&D pulls off an "almost impossible" task a couple times every year (once for 10Best cars, once for 10Best trucks)? I'm sure it's a stressful time of year for them, but seriously, it simply can't be anywhere near as difficult as you say.
Well, I don't work in the automotive press and don't have any special insight into what either C&D or MT goes through or the respective size of there staff.

However, I do believe that it would be an almost impossible task to do any sort of fair evaluation of every single vehicle available to the public and to do that every year. While I don't know what C&D's criteria is, I have to believe they have some sort of basic criteria they go through that probably eliminates a lot of vehicles before they consider a vehicle for the 10 Best list

As to the C6 Z06...I find that to be sad news. Other than perhaps a base Corvette, the Z06 is the only vehicle GM makes that I would be interested in owning.

I didn't know we were discussing which mag/which list is better...I was just pointing out that the two have different goals and probably shouldn't be compared as if they are equals. :)
Well, I brought it up because it was suggested that CZ28 should use MT COTY as a template for CZ28 COTY. I asked why we would choose MT COTY as our template, since I don't think much of that particular award.

However, I do believe that it would be an almost impossible task to do any sort of fair evaluation of every single vehicle available to the public and to do that every year. While I don't know what C&D's criteria is, I have to believe they have some sort of basic criteria they go through that probably eliminates a lot of vehicles before they consider a vehicle for the 10 Best list

I looked it up: here are C&D's criteria:
Cars are judged on three points. The first is how well they perform their intended functions—sedans and hatchbacks should be spacious and versatile, economy cars should be frugal (but not punishing), and sports cars should be responsive and satisfying. Secondly, we consider how engaging a car is on an emotional level—do we emerge from a drive with a smile, and does it hold our gaze as we walk away? Finally, we look at how competitive a car’s pricing is for the levels of versatility, practicality, and fun it offers. We recognize value when we see it and we highlight those cars that possess it.

Eligibility for 10Best is determined based on newness and past 10Best success. All cars either new or significantly redesigned are allowed. Additionally, cars that made the list in 2008 are automatically invited back for 2009, providing they still clear our price cap—2.5 times the average new-car transaction price for all light-duty vehicles sold through August of the previous year, or $71,000 this time around.

If a car fails to make the list its first year on the market, it’s out of contention until a significant redesign renews its eligibility. Conversely, if a car consistently impresses us enough to be voted to the list year after year, it can remain on the list indefinitely, even if it receives no updates. But all eligible cars must be available for sale no later than January 2009.

This is slightly different than I thought -- they only include cars that have been redesigned each year, but they grandfather in the previous year's winners. That addresses the huge undertaking side of the problem, while still allowing an excellent car from last year to take the prize again.

So, I would like to revise my proposed rules for CZ28's award:

Judgement Criteria
Taken verbatim from C&D's 10Best criteria:
Cars are judged on three points. The first is how well they perform their intended functions—sedans and hatchbacks should be spacious and versatile, economy cars should be frugal (but not punishing), and sports cars should be responsive and satisfying. Secondly, we consider how engaging a car is on an emotional level—do we emerge from a drive with a smile, and does it hold our gaze as we walk away? Finally, we look at how competitive a car’s pricing is for the levels of versatility, practicality, and fun it offers. We recognize value when we see it and we highlight those cars that possess it.

Nomination Process
A nominations thread will be started, in which anyone is welcome to nominate any new or used car that meets the eligibility criteria. After a period of time (a week?), we stop accepting nominations, screen the entries through the eligibility criteria, and post a final list of nominees. A nomination must contain the following:
* Year, make, and model
* Trim level and options to be included in the judged vehicle
* Price

Eligibility Criteria
Again cribbing from C&D, the price limit is $71,000. This is based on as tested MSRP for new cars, and on KBB's private party sale price in "Excellent" condition for used cars. If a car is too old to have a price on KBB, the nominator must include a price that would be reasonable for a private party sale of that car.

Testing Process
This is where I'm unsure as to how it should work. We're clearly not going to be able to put each of our nominated cars through the battery of performance tests that MT or C&D would. I'm open to suggestions here. :)

Well, I brought it up because it was suggested that CZ28 should use MT COTY as a template for CZ28 COTY. I asked why we would choose MT COTY as our template, since I don't think much of that particular award.

I looked it up: here are C&D's criteria…This is slightly different than I thought -- they only include cars that have been redesigned each year, but they grandfather in the previous year's winners. That addresses the huge undertaking side of the problem, while still allowing an excellent car from last year to take the prize again.
Ah…so in other words, I was right. :)

I don’t have a problem with your rules for CZ28 COTY but going back to the intent of the thread; it was started because of all the angst about the GT-R being chosen by MT so the suggestion was for CZ28 members to nominate “their” choice for COTY but the only criteria, suggested by the OP was that it be a “new” model for 2008 and that it have “significant impact in 2008”; it was somebody else who suggested using MT’s criteria.

Ah…so in other words, I was right. :)
I'll give you "half right". :)

the suggestion was for CZ28 members to nominate “their” choice for COTY but the only criteria, suggested by the OP was that it be a “new” model for 2008 and that it have “significant impact in 2008”; it was somebody else who suggested using MT’s criteria.
The OP's suggested criteria is close enough to MT's that I object to either approach. :shrug: