So I thought Pontiac was already a niche brand...GM doesn't think so?

detnews.com article...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081202/AUTO01/812020404/1148



The plan involves exploring the sale of Saab, talking to dealers about the future of Saturn and shrinking the Pontiac brand to more of a niche offering.

"Pontiac will be more of a high-value performance brand, like Corvette to Chevrolet," said Mark LaNeve, GM's North American vice president of sales.

GM established the Pontiac division in 1926 and Saturn in 1985.

Henderson would not speculate about what might happen to the Saturn brand, sales of which are down 20.9 percent this year.

"We need to do something...because it's not been successful," he said.

GM previously said it was trying to sell the Hummer brand.

The moves would let GM focus on four core brands: Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC, which account for 83 percent of the company's sales.



WTF????? Make Buick a niche brand...Pontiac GENERATES MORE SALES.

I f-ing give up. Interesting how Saturn's sales are down 20% (other divisions are higher), yet they've given up on it. Must be the massive investment isn't getting a return...:rolleyes:

Now imagine if that had been invested in PONTIAC........


(am I sounding like a broken record yet????)

They'll all be niche brands before it's over.

But I too was confused on how they expect to get volume out of Buick, and why GMC is a core brand.

No matter what they do there still isn't going to be enough room inbetween Impala and CTS for a Buick and Pontiac sedan that actually make sense at the same time.

I think it should be carved in stone that a Buick or Pontiac midsize can exist at the same time. Pontiac or Buick large/small, etc. That would be a step in the right direction. Not cutting Buick down to.... Enclave, makes it sound like they're still up to there old tricks.

Pontiac isn't a niche brand. It may be run in a less than ideal way, but you can still get something of a product line out of Pontiac's lineup.

What GM seems to be planning is to have the G8 line, this new 4 cylinder Holden sedan, the Solstice line, and perhaps the G6 in GXP form.

In short, it seems they'll get rid of the crossovers they said they'd lose 7 years ago, backtrack on the G3, lose the current G5 as well, and sell them all in Buick showrooms.

Why did Buick survive intact despite far less sales?

In a word: China.

Why is Saturn getting the axe?

Beyond low sales, name a Saturn that isn't sold by another GM division (if you said Astra, consider the Cobat coupe's replacement is going to be very similar to it).

In short, it seems they'll get rid of the crossovers they said they'd lose 7 years ago, backtrack on the G3, lose the current G5 as well, and sell them all in Buick showrooms.

How does badging Pontiac's as Buick's (that sell on the same lot) increase sales?

How does badging Pontiac's as Buick's (that sell on the same lot) increase sales?

Not going to happen that way.

Pontiac is losing models and shrinking, leaving only high performance vehicles that will be sold in Buick-GMC showrooms.

Apparently, they are using Corvette as a model for a brand within a brand.

In the 60/70's all Pontiac had was cars...so I am not sure how not selling something for everyone (i.e. no crossovers and econoboxes) makes you "niche". If I had my way, I would make Buick/Opel/Saturn all the same car with different grills. Then sell them as Buicks in China, Opels in Euorpe, and Saturns in the US. GM kinda screwed themselves from being able to do that because Saturn dealers are all seperate.

I like Guy's idea though of Pontiac being Holden's US sales arm...though I would want them to stil be Pontiac's. Maybe now we can have a new GTO (yeah right...)

Yeah..but who thinks of Corvette as anything but a Chevy. It's just an excuse to shrink Pontiac, and get the Pontiac dealers to stop having the me too's for every new Chevy that comes out. You know you go to a Chey dealer to buy a Corvette...however who thinks to go to their Buick dealer for a Pontiac? I all sounds like something cooked up in a Seinfeld episode.

Not going to happen that way.

Pontiac is losing models and shrinking, leaving only high performance vehicles that will be sold in Buick-GMC showrooms.

Apparently, they are using Corvette as a model for a brand within a brand.

I do agree, it's all a little wacky and perplexing. But I also agree with a lot of what guionM has said, and it does seem that GM plans to cultivate Pontiac as a 'brand within a brand' in the same mold as Corvette/Chevy. That can end up being a good thing for us Pontiac fans :yes:

What GM seems to be planning is to have the G8 line, this new 4 cylinder Holden sedan, the Solstice line, and perhaps the G6 in GXP form.

In short, it seems they'll get rid of the crossovers they said they'd lose 7 years ago, backtrack on the G3, lose the current G5 as well, and sell them all in Buick showrooms.

Why did Buick survive intact despite far less sales?

In a word: China.

Why is Saturn getting the axe?

Beyond low sales, name a Saturn that isn't sold by another GM division (if you said Astra, consider the Cobat coupe's replacement is going to be very similar to it).

In the other thread, I voted to keep Pontiac, and I like the idea of getting rid of all of the rebadges. I think GMC should be a brand within a brand in regards to Chevy. The only reason Buick stays is because of China...so why do we need it here?

You end up with Caddy, Chevy (with GMC as luxury truck/SUV options), and a smaller "Excitement" division only Pontiac for GM NA and have Buick stay in China.

Yeah..but who thinks of Corvette as anything but a Chevy. It's just an excuse to shrink Pontiac, and get the Pontiac dealers to stop having the me too's for every new Chevy that comes out. You know you go to a Chey dealer to buy a Corvette...however who thinks to go to their Buick dealer for a Pontiac? I all sounds like something cooked up in a Seinfeld episode.

Yeah, something is fishy here.

If we assume that Pontiac will carry on with say, Solstice and G8, those two cars combined have less volume than Corvette. And Solstice is slated to go away in '11.

Yeah, something is fishy here.

If we assume that Pontiac will carry on with say, Solstice and G8, those two cars combined have less volume than Corvette. And Solstice is slated to go away in '11.

I think once all Pontiac dealers are Buick dealers it would be easier to just kill the Pontiac brand than buying out all the dealers, don't you?

Sounds a lot like what PCS has been preaching for months. Sad but possibly true.

I think once all Pontiac dealers are Buick dealers it would be easier to just kill the Pontiac brand than buying out all the dealers, don't you?

Sounds a lot like what PCS has been preaching for months. Sad but possibly true.

Possible, but I think they would live to regret it.

I think once all Pontiac dealers are Buick dealers it would be easier to just kill the Pontiac brand than buying out all the dealers, don't you?

Sounds a lot like what PCS has been preaching for months. Sad but possibly true.
It also enables GM to do exactly what they are suggesting now, to allow Pontiac to be a true performance niche brand instead of trying to push big volumes of 'me-too' cars like the G3/5/6.

There's real, undeniable profit potential for the likes of the G8, Solstice etc, once GM's legacy costs get in line with the norms.

Here is the quote from the official "Plan":

This channel will be fully competitive in terms of total entries offered, with Pontiac serving as a specialty/niche brand with reduced product offerings solely intended to complement Buick and GMC models and reinforce the channel as a whole.

Is it possible LaNeve misspoke or was missquoted? Based on the statement from the plan, Pontiac might be more of a "sporty", entry-level brand to complement Buick. Remember that GM must keep the BPG dealers happy, and they'll want something for someone that can't afford a Buick.

Here is the quote from the official "Plan":



Is it possible LaNeve misspoke or was missquoted? Based on the statement from the plan, Pontiac might be more of a "sporty", entry-level brand to complement Buick. Remember that GM must keep the BPG dealers happy, and they'll want something for someone that can't afford a Buick.

They don't dare utter the word 'performance' in that plan :o

...'specialty' is the congress-friendly 2009 code word for that...

Ok I get it :thumb:

The only reason Buick stays is because of China...so why do we need it here?

You end up with Caddy, Chevy (with GMC as luxury truck/SUV options), and a smaller "Excitement" division only Pontiac for GM NA and have Buick stay in China.

Well the way I see it, dropping Saturn means it's higher style Opel imports could go to Buick with sportier, less luxurious offerings at Pontiac. After seeing Cadillac recapture its image, I think the same can be accomplished with Buick for a new generation of buyers. You just have to give them the product. Selling Saturn sounds like a great opportunity one of these green EV upstarts looking to get in the market.

So I'm okay with the plan as they laid it out, but will they follow through? What if they don't stick to it? Can the government do something about it or is the discussion of this plan to get the loan enough? Who's to say market conditions won't necessitate another Pontiac "G3" or "G5" down the road?

As long as there's 2000-some Pontiac dealers, it will be impossible to operate as a truly niche brand. Especially because those dealers are heavily located in rural areas, not urban areas where Mini/Smart/Scion/etc are concentrated.

This "specialty" business is most likely just corporate-speak for "we aren't developing any new Pontiacs"

This "specialty" business is most likely just corporate-speak for "we aren't developing any new Pontiacs"

I suspect that you're right.

As long as there's 2000-some Pontiac dealers, it will be impossible to operate as a truly niche brand.

This part of their game plan makes no sense. Pontiac still has solid customer base that GM management turned their back on with canceling/renaming everything. The brand has an excellent heritage and the ability to increase volume with the right products with this size dealer network.

How will they make any money importing 25,000 g8's, as well as the misbranded sport truck (the next flop) and continuing to sell the unprofitable, low volume, solstice?

This part of their game plan makes no sense. Pontiac still has solid customer base that GM management turned their back on with canceling/renaming everything. The brand has an excellent heritage and the ability to increase volume with the right products with this size dealer network.

It doesn't make sense except that GM is broke and the automotive market is way down. So anything new coming out has have a decent profit margin (i.e. not a Pontiac or Saturn), because they ain't making it up on volume.

On the other hand, if GM manages to survive, at least Pontiac and a lot of those dealerships will still be around.

This part of their game plan makes no sense. Pontiac still has solid customer base that GM management turned their back on with canceling/renaming everything. The brand has an excellent heritage and the ability to increase volume with the right products with this size dealer network.

How will they make any money importing 25,000 g8's, as well as the misbranded sport truck (the next flop) and continuing to sell the unprofitable, low volume, solstice?


Pontiac is far from moving 25K G8's. Once the G8 and Solstice run their courses,, I wonder what will become of Pontiac?

The more i think of it this is probably just the start of the process of killing pontiac. Bleed it until it folds, removing a huge dealership burden. Good for the company, bad for the name.

The more i think of it this is probably just the start of the process of killing pontiac. Bleed it until it folds, removing a huge dealership burden. Good for the company, bad for the name.

So Pontiac is becoming the Mercury of GM.

Yeah, something is fishy here.

If we assume that Pontiac will carry on with say, Solstice and G8, those two cars combined have less volume than Corvette. And Solstice is slated to go away in '11.

Is Alpha still coming online in 2011?

Being a niche brand, I don't think volume is an issue.

I think once all Pontiac dealers are Buick dealers it would be easier to just kill the Pontiac brand than buying out all the dealers, don't you?

Sounds a lot like what PCS has been preaching for months. Sad but possibly true.


But PCS wanted that so Saturn could replace Pontiac and extend its dealer network. Now that Saturn is on the skids, who knows?

But PCS wanted that so Saturn could replace Pontiac and extend its dealer network. Now that Saturn is on the skids, who knows?

I don't think that was PCS's ultimate thought. He never specifically said Saturn would expand. He did say numerous times that GME/Opel would have more influence over GMNA's operations and models (which will happen as Opel=Buick becomes reality). By using the Buick dealer network Opel instantly has more dealers to push its product in the states. Saturn seems like it is headed for (further) failure or sale.

He even mentioned that Saturn and B/P/GMC we're reporting to the same managers "In case one division happens to fail" (Meaning Pontiac)