For those of you who insisted that the Camaro is a "certainty"..

You were so very wrong. To quote somebody who put it simply..

"This is not something that can go on and be dealt with in the next year, it needs to be dealt with in the next few weeks," said Cole. "When your cash is gone, you're gone."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711)

I give it a 70-30 shot that GM will live to get our cars out.. call it "doom and gloom" or whatever you want. I am a realist, and it is not looking good at all.

Hey, you ordered the exact same car as me. :) Man, I hope we get um. I'm sure
congress is going to send a huge cash infusion GM's way. Hell, everyone else is getting
bailed out.

It is uncertain whether or not you will live to see the first 5th Gen Camaro roll off the assembly line in 3-ish months. Nothing is a given. You can choose to be optimistic or pessimistic regarding the situation.

It appears as if GM is taking things one day at a time. We have to have faith that there is very REAL value left in the company and that someone will step forward with the means to keep operations going.

Hey, you ordered the exact same car as me. :) Man, I hope we get um. I'm sure
congress is going to send a huge cash infusion GM's way. Hell, everyone else is getting
bailed out.

Nice taste, I hope so too.. but I cannot support a bailout for GM. The bailouts that have happened so far infuriate me to the point of a stroke, and this country cannot tolerate anymore of this horseh*t corporate socialism. Congress and the Fed are destroying the dollar with the infusion of all the artificial money they are pumping into these companies, to the point of where we might as well start stuffing our wallets with Monopoly money because the dollar will be all but worthless. And yet, failed investment banks are going to be giving BONUSES to these greedy execs, funded by the bailout money. The apathy of the people in this country is pathetic.. people riot in Brazil over a soccer game, and here we are, letting our government pound us in the a$$ while we all watch "Dancing With the Stars". We should all be on the front steps of the captial with shotguns. So, if GM has to be a first casualty of the free market - it shall be. It will piss me off that I won't get my car, but this garbage must stop.

the camaro is not going to be cancelled. it is going to come out so stop worrying. damn its the negative people in this economy that make everything shakey. everyone gets scared and pulls out of stock and banks and then thats when things take a fall. just chill out things are going to be fine.

the camaro is not going to be cancelled. it is going to come out so stop worrying. damn its the negative people in this economy that make everything shakey. everyone gets scared and pulls out of stock and banks and then thats when things take a fall. just chill out things are going to be fine.

At the same time though, I don't think the problem can be ignored. When Mervyns (a HUGE chain of clothing stores) went under here on the West Coast and Texas, it came down to them running out of cash. They were already on cash-only terms with their suppliers, and when Mervyns had no more cash, their suppliers cut them off and literally repo'd everything that was being leased or hadn't been paid for.

In the same light, if GM can't write checks to General Tire, or to Visteon, or whomever is supplying big components for their vehicles, those suppliers can and will cut them off.

I'm sorry to make this my first post. I just ordered a black 1ss two days ago. Here is a quote from a GM financial report made earlier today:
The company also said it will slow down assembly line rates at North American factories beginning next year, but it gave no details. It also said several vehicle new vehicle programs would be delayed, but it would spend more on its Chevrolet Volt electric car and other fuel-efficiency programs.
It doesn't look too good.:(:(:(:(

At the same time though, I don't think the problem can be ignored. When Mervyns (a HUGE chain of clothing stores) went under here on the West Coast and Texas, it came down to them running out of cash. They were already on cash-only terms with their suppliers, and when Mervyns had no more cash, their suppliers cut them off and literally repo'd everything that was being leased or hadn't been paid for.

In the same light, if GM can't write checks to General Tire, or to Visteon, or whomever is supplying big components for their vehicles, those suppliers can and will cut them off.

Exactly. This is not a matter of fear ruling the market or speculation, this is a very cut and dry matter of them running out of cash. No cash = game over. Period.

Nice taste, I hope so too.. but I cannot support a bailout for GM. The bailouts that have happened so far infuriate me to the point of a stroke, and this country cannot tolerate anymore of this horseh*t corporate socialism. Congress and the Fed are destroying the dollar with the infusion of all the artificial money they are pumping into these companies, to the point of where we might as well start stuffing our wallets with Monopoly money because the dollar will be all but worthless. And yet, failed investment banks are going to be giving BONUSES to these greedy execs, funded by the bailout money. The apathy of the people in this country is pathetic.. people riot in Brazil over a soccer game, and here we are, letting our government pound us in the a$$ while we all watch "Dancing With the Stars". We should all be on the front steps of the captial with shotguns. So, if GM has to be a first casualty of the free market - it shall be. It will piss me off that I won't get my car, but this garbage must stop.

Hey, I'm totally with you. This whole idea of bailouts is a very complicated
matter. On the one hand they say if we don't do it, the economy will totally collapse, on the other hand this is tax payer money going for all this and putting us deeper and deeper into debt. While the GM problem is not as systemic as the bank fiasco's, it is a significant problem. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe, let the chips fall where they may.

So, if GM has to be a first casualty of the free market - it shall be. It will piss me off that I won't get my car, but this garbage must stop.
The true free market died long ago...failing to realize this has put our country at a severe disadvantage in the global marketplace. We're clinging to this idea that everyone else will play 'fair' and be nice members of a bigger economy, so that everything will work as it should.:no: And this has nothing to do with the auto industry, either: if we as a country are to survive, then we need to compete, and by not supporting our companies (I'm not advocating for free cash) we are effectively not supporting ourselves. I support capitalism, as it's the best form of economics out there; but a true "free market" doesn't exist anymore. If GM goes down completely then we are, royally and effectively...screwed. Try stabbing a bleeding man, see what happens.:dead:

fwiw, these "bailouts" are not free money that the government is throwing into the wind. It's not pleasant (nor likely), but if all goes according to plan, that 700 billion will come back. The pocket-padding that certain execs are doing is deplorable...something I hope they rot for. But likewise, assistance for the automakers would not come in the form of free, gifted money: they're called loans because GM, Ford, and Chrysler would have to pay them back. Why are you against loaning them money to survive a market-meltdown.

I'm confident our coupes will be made....but I have my doubts that the convertible will ever be built.

well if they cut off the camaro, then there is nothign that will save them. they already made it clear that the camaro along with a few other cars are the cars that are going to save the franchise. there is no backing out now concidering that everything is in line and all of the millions of dollars already spent on this car. its too close to back out and there is too much invested to put this car on hold.
im sorry its just not going to happen.

At the same time though, I don't think the problem can be ignored. When Mervyns (a HUGE chain of clothing stores) went under here on the West Coast and Texas, it came down to them running out of cash. They were already on cash-only terms with their suppliers, and when Mervyns had no more cash, their suppliers cut them off and literally repo'd everything that was being leased or hadn't been paid for.

In the same light, if GM can't write checks to General Tire, or to Visteon, or whomever is supplying big components for their vehicles, those suppliers can and will cut them off.

sorry never heard of MERVYNS. chevy will not be stuck with all these parts and components that they have already purchased and dies they have made just because someone wants money up front. if thats the case then there are many many more manufacturers out there. and deals are made a long time in advance, way before they start making a product they negotiate how paying terms are and shipping, and all the other things that come with buying from suppliers. dont worry about them. they know alot more about whats goign on than whoever you hear these stories from.

I heard on CNBC that the Camaro and the Volt are secure. After those, its pretty uncertain. The government has to step and it will. I hope everything turns out good. I want to see GM live for another 100+ years

if gm goes under, get your money out of the banks and hide it, because this country will fall with gm. thats why no one cares about how terrible ford is doing now. gm is the ones who help carry this country.

I also read an article that said they were going to be production line "re-rates" at Oshawa, whatever that means. I don't see how it can be good.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081107/gm_production.html?.v=2

This is all very nerve wracking, and not something I wanted to read on a Friday....plus, I just came back from the dealer, from updating my order :( It would be extremely sad if the Camaro never makes it to reality....why the HECK they are wanting to still wait until Feb. to start production beats the he** out of me.....

Let's hope someone steps in....

no matter how they try to spin it the sold numbers for the camaro are not that great..but its no different for anybody else..if the trend continues GM will be cash broke come january 1, 2009.....they are losing over 12billion a month and only have 19billion on hand......camaro will go on until and during bankruptcy which GM needs to declare..GM has to get out from the agreements made 50 plus years ago....if camaro survives beyond that is anybodys guess

no matter how they try to spin it the sold numbers for the camaro are not that great..but its no different for anybody else..if the trend continues GM will be cash broke come january 1, 2009.....they are losing over 12billion a month and only have 19billion on hand......camaro will go on until and during bankruptcy which GM needs to declare..GM has to get out from the agreements made 50 plus years ago....if camaro survives beyond that is anybodys guess

THE CAR ISNT EVEN OUT YET!!!! those number are pretty damn good for a car most of the people havent even seen! there are still alot of people that dont even know about the camaro. 8,000 sold cars is amazing for a car that isnt even complete. those numbers you have to , are not correct. they have enough cash on hand to run the company for the next 6-8 months at least.

?? They do *not* have the cash on hand to continue operations for the next 6-8 months with the current market conditions. They have specifically said as much. And they would not say something as doom and gloom as that unless it was fact.

Listen,

Camaro Orders can be placed etc. Production entail Vendors and parts for GM. If the banks are not so quick to lend to GM..... GM doesn't have cash on hand to pay for parts to carry. Vendors will not be so quick to give GM balance based on their disposition : EQUALS----- Camaro not built.

Agonizing it is, a company can go belly up within a night's declaration as we know from Washington Mutual.

Bad news suck, but that is reality! Things change so fast.

But honestly, do you really want to own a vehicle that was only manufacture for less then 6 months? Imagine the cost of parts replacement.

Well, cross those fingers to see what happens... so close but so far away!

they already made it clear that the camaro along with a few other cars are the cars that are going to save the franchise. When did they do this? Source? You won't find one because this simply isn't the case. Pure fanboy hyperbole.

They're hoping to sell about 100K units per year and only spent ~$250 million on the car's development. If the future of a global company hinges on one product, don't you think they would need to sell more of them? If their future depended on this one car, maybe they would have spent a little more on development as well?

Considering the company needs approximately $14 billion in the bank at any given time just to keep the lights on, I'd say you're exaggerating things more than just a bit.

Their problems go far beyond one or even a few car models. That is, unless you can explain how they plan turn a $14 million profit on each Camaro sold.

I will put it to you like this. GM will save the Camaro from being eliminated, but the Camaro will not save GM from being eliminated.

THE CAR ISNT EVEN OUT YET!!!! those number are pretty damn good for a car most of the people havent even seen! there are still alot of people that dont even know about the camaro. 8,000 sold cars is amazing for a car that isnt even complete. those numbers you have to , are not correct. they have enough cash on hand to run the company for the next 6-8 months at least.

januay 1 2009..its game over and thats the simple fact...may be sooner as some are saying 14billion is going to be lost this month

Ok.. GM said they will run out of cash this quarter without the govt stepping in. They have also said that bankruptcy is not an option(who wants to buy a car that might not have a warranty if they shut the doors).

So using basic deduction:

No govt bailout = no GM = no Camaro (scheduled to be built after this quarter).

I am wondering where the bottom is. The govt has some BIG financial hurdles that make GM problems seem minuscule(Social security. health care etc.)

I hope the Camaro will be built. I really want to buy it in it's second year of production. I however do not support a bailout. What is the incentive to have sound business practices if you expect the govt to bail you out when you screw up.

The Wall Street deal is a whole different animal. There is a big difference between a country wide financial collapse and the shutdown of a large manufacturing company (GM).

i agree and i truly believe the biggest problem is the great unknown regarding the tax plan redo..nobody knows what rate they will be paying..65% on small business has been passed around as well as near 40% in capital gains...it just means if you have cash on hand you cannot buy anything due to no knowing how much they are going to take away....raise cash is the only thing to do and many are doing just that and will not buy any big ticket purchase

You were so very wrong. To quote somebody who put it simply..

"This is not something that can go on and be dealt with in the next year, it needs to be dealt with in the next few weeks," said Cole. "When your cash is gone, you're gone."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711)

I give it a 70-30 shot that GM will live to get our cars out.. call it "doom and gloom" or whatever you want. I am a realist, and it is not looking good at all.

I wouldn't call it "gloom and doom", but I do have a term for your post that I'd identify by the initials "B" and "S".

Camaro production is certainly assured. If Camaros don't roll down the assembly line, you can bet the farm that there's also other massive casualties at GM bigger than the Camaro.

GM's priority is MONEY. That includes both making it as well as saving it. In short, any way that GM can produce money, it will produce money.

GM KNOWS there is a high amount of intrest in the Camaro. GM is also looking over at Chrysler where the Dodge Challenger's production is seemingly unaffected by either the economy or the talk about Chrysler being bought out. So, GM knows the Camaro will generate money.

The other item is utilizing assets to produce money. The reason why GM would sell cars at a loss by piling incentives on them is because it's makes better financial sense using assets to generate something of value than to have them set dormant not making anything. The Camaro assembly line is set up. All the expenses related to creating the Camaro have already been spent. The training is continuing, and the people are still there.

If GM failed to make the Camaro, those people will still be paid, the bills on the plant will continue to come, the taxes on it will continue to be assessed, and the investment used will simply be sitting there, doing absolutely nothing.

The CEO of Southwest Airlines has a colorful term for utilizing assets: "Making sure seats have butts" as well as "Planes don't make money sitting on the ground" ( meaning SWA has a high tempo turnaround at the gate that isn't afraid to leave people behind). It's also true that assembly lines don't make money if they aren't being used: however minimally.

I'm not going to even go into the orders GM already has for Camaro, and the potential for liability claims in the event GM doesn't deliver.

One of the annoying things about the internet is how easy it is for someone who doesn't understand how things work to ignite rumors with posts and statements that wouldn't pass muster in even elementary school business classes let alone the reality of the automobile business. This thread is a prime example of how wild rumors start.

I sympathize with Scott on how he wanders onto a site and sees a thread on fire because of someone's ill thought out rumor creating a panic.

Camaro is safe.

The Cruize is safe.

The CTS coupe is also safe.

In that order.

If these vehicles don't come out, it's only because there is no General Motors Corperation around to bring them out, and pretty much the production of All GM vehicles have halted.


Once again, we need to get a grip and stop putting out ill thought out alarmist posts and threads..... especially if we are not basing anything on facts or basic business practices... just because we like to create and spread pessimism.

That type of stuff belongs in the Lounge.

If these vehicles don't come out, it's only because there is no General Motors Corperation around to bring them out, and pretty much the production of All GM vehicles have halted.



I think that is the point. My feeling is they will be around for a very long time and our Camaros will be built
without a hitch. :)

CNBC..."at current burn rate they will be gone before christmas"..now from where i sit thats about as bad as it can get..merry christmas to all

i agree and i truly believe the biggest problem is the great unknown regarding the tax plan redo..nobody knows what rate they will be paying..65% on small business has been passed around as well as near 40% in capital gains...it just means if you have cash on hand you cannot buy anything due to no knowing how much they are going to take away....raise cash is the only thing to do and many are doing just that and will not buy any big ticket purchase

If you are making a quarter million dollars per year, I doubt this is an issue.

If you are making less than 120K per year, we're not even on the tax increase radar.

The issue is that people are fearful of their jobs, and (in case you missed the past month or so) banks aren't lending.

GMAC now requires scores of over 700! That has zilch to do with taxes.

Credit cards now require higher minimum payments. Again, unrelated to taxes.

Lenders that still finance car loans require a much higher down payment. You guessed it.... no tax issue there.

The issue is loans, not some tax issue that you and I aren't going to be adversely involved in. Unless you're in the upper 5% of wage earners.... but at that altitude, I don't think you're very concerned about getting a loan for a $25-30K vehicle.

its taxes..plain and simple..its money going to government and not to detroit...its that simple...another issue is the tax redo started at 250K its now down to near 80K...wala another reason to forget about buying a new vehicle....and there is no way the general will end up with chrysler..90% chance it goes to hyundai and becomes a state run company

credit is so bad right now. my neighbor has his house on the market. has accepted an offer 4 times from different buyers. everytime, the buyer was unable to secure a loan. GM is runnning ads now for "financing from over 100 banks" because GMAC isnt giving out loans unless as Guy pointed out, you have a spotless credit record.

credit makes our economy move. from big business to buying a car or a house. thats why the financial companies got their bailout money.

cerberus owns majority of GMAC..of course they wont loan to a competitior..you can get a loan if you have some skin in the game and a good credit rating..where are all these people?..sitting on cash and figuring out how to survive for the next 4 years thats where...

Ps: word been circulating that the general will recive no bail out as the economist guru's believe bankruptcy is the only solutuion...there are reasons for that..but my post always gets censored when certain things are mentioned so think for yourself why

Why are you against loaning them money to survive a market-meltdown.

Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).

I wouldn't call it "gloom and doom", but I do have a term for your post that I'd identify by the initials "B" and "S".

Camaro production is certainly assured. If Camaros don't roll down the assembly line, you can bet the farm that there's also other massive casualties at GM bigger than the Camaro.

Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.

I'd be more concerned about the dealers that folks made deposits on Camaros with surviving than GM surviving at this point.

Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).



Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.

Read through all his posts. No matter what happens the chances of Cheverolet disappearing are slim to none.

I'd be more concerned about the dealers that folks made deposits on Camaros with surviving than GM surviving at this point.

you would be wrong on that...general is burning through 75million a day...16.2billion left....they will be gone before christmas

if gm goes under, get your money out of the banks and hide it, because this country will fall with gm. thats why no one cares about how terrible ford is doing now. gm is the ones who help carry this country.

Come January 20th, whatever happens to GM, everyone should get their money out of the banks and hide it, since the government is coming after it anyway!

GMAC isn't lending because they are broke, but what a concept, only lending money
to people that are reliable. HMMM, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess if Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac and the like had used the same discretion. All this wealth was a balloon waiting to pop. Millions of people into loans they should have never gotten. The banks
didn't care if it was risky and the customer should have known better.

Read through all his posts. No matter what happens the chances of Cheverolet disappearing are slim to none.


the name will not disappear..but how much value does the name chevrolet have any more..i would argue not much (it is what it is)....chi coms or koreans or tata from india will for sure be interested in buying the name....you be lucky to ever see the camaro with that sceniro and some time next month we are all going to find out if no bail out occurs.....if above does occur it really no biggie to the economy..236K jobs is all thats left at big 3 and the entire auto biz only accounts for .6% of gross domestic product...compared to leisure and health care auto manufacturing does not even rate

Did I see an article about that french outfit & GM

Wow -- so much misinformation in this thread that my head is spinning.

FIRST OF ALL - we have NOT asked for a BAILOUT -- we have requested low-interest loans. BIG DIFFERENCE..........

GM plans on paying every cent back -- with interest.


no matter how they try to spin it the sold numbers for the camaro are not that great..but its no different for anybody else..if the trend continues GM will be cash broke come january 1, 2009.....they are losing over 12billion a month and only have 19billion on hand......camaro will go on until and during bankruptcy which GM needs to declare..GM has to get out from the agreements made 50 plus years ago....if camaro survives beyond that is anybodys guess


WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH us losing over 12 billion a month?

2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...

Is the sky falling............... again?:freakout:

Guess it's time to shut down all the sites and stop posting. Return to your normal, drab lives.

The proof is in the words. As you all know... outsiders are always better informed than..... what's the point. Pack it in and call it a day people. /sarcasm off

2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...

The original 25 billion was earmarked specifically for electric and hybrid vehicles development.

CNBC aired the results of a nationwide poll today regarding "should the govt make the loans available to GM or not". 76% of the responders outside of the Detroit area said "no...let them go bankrupt". I assume most of them buy foreign cars huh? And of course, in the Detroit area the response was nearly the same percentage, but in favor of making the funds available.

The petro companies are also reducing the capacities of their refineries due to the falling demand for gasoline (ergo: we refine less so the price for the consumer goes back up again). This cheap gas we have now won't last for long, and the demand for the Volt and other hybrids will go back up again. Don't worry folks....its all in the cards being played at very expensive tables. GM will survive and Nancy Pelosi will get California milage and emission standards across the board as a part of the deal.

Do you really think the government would give up all the tax money they make on this industry?

2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...


Look -- your first post said GM was losing 12 billion a month -- now you're saying 2.36 billion a month.

WHICH IS IT?

Perhaps you need to learn something before you post.

its taxes..plain and simple..its money going to government and not to detroit...its that simple...another issue is the tax redo started at 250K its now down to near 80K...wala another reason to forget about buying a new vehicle....and there is no way the general will end up with chrysler..90% chance it goes to hyundai and becomes a state run company

Do you even know what you're talking about, or are you parroting someone else's alarmist rants?

Tax rates have not changed between this summer and now. Yet you're sppouting off taxes as if that's the reason why people aren't buying new cars. You're making me start to think you played football without a helmet one too many times. The problem is a lack of loans. Pure and simple.

Also, if you have a legitimate source for that $80K tax redo claim in which taxes will go up, then post it here. And I don't mean some shadowy "they" said or any version of "I, you, me, or they know".

Otherwise, you're risking being marginalized.

cerberus owns majority of GMAC..of course they wont loan to a competitior..you can get a loan if you have some skin in the game and a good credit rating..where are all these people?..sitting on cash and figuring out how to survive for the next 4 years thats where...

Ps: word been circulating that the general will recive no bail out as the economist guru's believe bankruptcy is the only solutuion...there are reasons for that..but my post always gets censored when certain things are mentioned so think for yourself why

Snooter, where on earth do you get your information & ideas?

GMAC is in the business to make money. They have been loaning to a so-called "competitor" for years.

There is no economic "guru" saying that GM should go bankrupt, you are talking about public polls. Again, like Scott pointed out, you need to get your information right before you post them as facts, or you'll be marginalized.

If your posts gets censored its because they are false and make no sense.

Besides, you can't say "always" gets censored. As we see here, quite a bit of your posts get through, even though they're wrong.

Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter..

Which is what I said.

Your post came across as though you were saying that GM would not make Camaro to save money. The link and the quote you posted mentioned drastic action, and then you mention Camaro. I believe that's what you were getting at, and hence, my reaction.


you would be wrong on that...general is burning through 75million a day...16.2billion left....they will be gone before christmas

GM does gain income on sales.

That sales money is included in the burn rate.

Come January 20th, whatever happens to GM, everyone should get their money out of the banks and hide it, since the government is coming after it anyway!

Great. Another paranoid crackpot. :rolleyes:



2.36billion per month plus the additional 75million cash burn rate daily..its all over....those figures are right from the top dog CEO.....and i do like the fact the general is not looking for a bailout...but then why ask for an additional 25 billion on top of the 25 billion already given.....what are we missing?..i can read and add..and at that rate above with 16.2billion in cash reserve and a must have 11 to 14billion to sustain operation it looks like some time before christmas the general is gone....
..
ps..i frogged up on the 12 billion...call it too much beer (i dont drink)...shoulda been approximately 2.1billion per month...

Once again snooter, your posts are completely false, and in all honesty, anyone who takes these types of posts of yours seriously probally has brain damage.

Here are the facts.

GM burned through 2.5 billion dollars the past quarter.

Quarter means 3 months.

3 months is not 1 month, which you posted as GM's burn rate.

There is no "additional" burn rate. $75 million or anything.

You say you can read and you can add, but does your posts show it???

Look -- your first post said GM was losing 12 billion a month -- now you're saying 2.36 billion a month.

WHICH IS IT?

Perhaps you need to learn something before you post.

ahh..like you guys should learn how to build a product that people actually want to buy that is not in for repair 3 months after purchase?...

Just as I thought, it's a snooter troll.....

ahh..like you guys should learn how to build a product that people actually want to buy that is not in for repair 3 months after purchase?...

Ah, yes, now he has revealed himself. :lol:

Everybody needs to stop, take a breath and think about some things.

And just for full disclosure, I probably have more of a vested interest in this than most because I own a little bit of GM stock and depending upon the outcome of things, that investment position could be wiped out.

Firstly when GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably NOT mean the complete and utter end of GM. And yes I said when, because based on the 3Q financial #s, GM is fast running out of cash, probably too fast for the gov't to get around to doing anything about it.

When GM declares bankruptcy, it will probably be Ch 11 reorganizational bankruptcy. This will allow GM to continue operations while the bankruptcy makes its way through the courts, which could take years, especially with a company the size of GM. Some Ch 11 bankruptcy's have taken upwards of a decade to emerge from the courts. Even after emerging from bankruptcy, GM will still likely be around as the whole point of Ch 11 is to allow a company to remain in business.

The 2 biggest most immediate changes from a Ch 11 that would impact GM would be suspension of payments on the ~$45B in outstanding corporate debt and the ability to reject unfavorable contracts, including union contracts. I don't know the details of the outstanding debt but that alone could stop the bleeding of cash depending upon the interest rates.

At the end of the process, GM would likely emerge as a lot stronger company with a clean slate to work with. As of this moment, the worst case scenario I see is that GM emerges wholly owned by their creditors, wiping out the shareholders, but GM would still exist. I just don't foresee a large company, with as many hard assets as GM has with the potential to make money, being forced into liquidation bankruptcy.

While this whole process goes on, everybody just remember that there are more than few large companies in the US, that have gone through Bankruptcy and are still around. Delta Airlines and Texaco are a couple that did and are. Which BTW it took Delta almost 2 years to get out of Ch 11...

Oh and a couple more things to remember, any company will always toe the line that they "aren't considering bankruptcy" until the papers are filed because if a company were to come out and say "we"re declaring bankruptcy" investors would flee like rats leaving a sinking ship leading to stock price collapse.

On top of that, they might not have any control over whether they enter bankruptcy at all. As a company, if your creditors are afraid they won't get paid, they can petition the court to have you involuntarily placed in bankruptcy.

Right now its entirely possible we might wake up monday morning to find that GM has been put in Ch 11 by their creditors...

ahh..like you guys should learn how to build a product that people actually want to buy that is not in for repair 3 months after purchase?...

Can you build a car from raw materials? Can you assemble the entire car without making a single mistake?

No?

Then shut up.

If you are making a quarter million dollars per year, I doubt this is an issue.

If you are making less than 120K per year, we're not even on the tax increase radar.

The issue is that people are fearful of their jobs, and (in case you missed the past month or so) banks aren't lending.

GMAC now requires scores of over 700! That has zilch to do with taxes.

Credit cards now require higher minimum payments. Again, unrelated to taxes.

Lenders that still finance car loans require a much higher down payment. You guessed it.... no tax issue there.

The issue is loans, not some tax issue that you and I aren't going to be adversely involved in. Unless you're in the upper 5% of wage earners.... but at that altitude, I don't think you're very concerned about getting a loan for a $25-30K vehicle.

LOL!! Top 5% of wage earners is 100k+.....not that much

Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).



Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.

Those same economists think that hyper inflation is a good thing in the end. It will cause a correction.

Are we actually having a discussion on GM "going under"? Not gonna happen for a variety of reasons.

#1) Unemployment is at 6.5%, a 14 year high- the country can't afford to add to it with a whole bunch of displaced autoworkers.

#2) Government will intervene (see #1) ; probably in the form of a "bailout" but what everyone has to understand is the current bailout actually has tangible assets attached. The $700b "we" gave out isn't charity where we never expect to get it back; just will probably take 5-10 years to do it. I would expect that an automaker bailout would be much the same- effectively a loan based on x, y, z, etc being restructured. That will probably mean Chapter 11 prior to the bailout being approved; that isn't as bad a thing as people think IMO.

#3) The intangible American pride. Think about what a downer it would be to see GM (or the others) fail. You wouldn't have to work for, or be somehow linked to GM, to feel the pain of it going under. It would be a totally different public sentiment (IMO) than watching Bear Sterns going under.

Do you even know what you're talking about, or are you parroting someone else's alarmist rants?

Tax rates have not changed between this summer and now. Yet you're sppouting off taxes as if that's the reason why people aren't buying new cars. You're making me start to think you played football without a helmet one too many times. The problem is a lack of loans. Pure and simple.

Also, if you have a legitimate source for that $80K tax redo claim in which taxes will go up, then post it here. And I don't mean some shadowy "they" said or any version of "I, you, me, or they know".

Otherwise, you're risking being marginalized.



Snooter, where on earth do you get your information & ideas?

GMAC is in the business to make money. They have been loaning to a so-called "competitor" for years.

There is no economic "guru" saying that GM should go bankrupt, you are talking about public polls. Again, like Scott pointed out, you need to get your information right before you post them as facts, or you'll be marginalized.

If your posts gets censored its because they are false and make no sense.

Besides, you can't say "always" gets censored. As we see here, quite a bit of your posts get through, even though they're wrong.


Once again snooter, your posts are completely false, and in all honesty, anyone who takes these types of posts of yours seriously probally has brain damage.

Here are the facts.

GM burned through 2.5 billion dollars the past quarter.

Quarter means 3 months.

3 months is not 1 month, which you posted as GM's burn rate.

There is no "additional" burn rate. $75 million or anything.

You say you can read and you can add, but does your posts show it???


Guion,
It looks like snooter gets his info from Fox "news".

Guy, GM burned thru $6.9 billion in Q3 which is $2.3 billion per month.

Guys, let's be sure to keep a few things in mind here before posting...

Want to bash GM or the Camaro? Wrong site.
Want to say the sky is falling? Be sure to quote actual numbers, facts, and data and not armchair speculation.
Want to gain or make clarification to someone's post? Do it respectfully or don't do it at all.


That's the kind of site this is. Deviation is not allowed here and will be removed.

Thanks, all.

It will cost the govt. more to let GM go under than to help them. Think of all the unemployed people and the costs of that to the govt. (i.e. less taxes being collected from people with little income and then the social security they will be collecting, lost GDP to the U.S. economy, etc. etc.). Plus there is a huge psychological factor of a large co. that's been around for a long time going bankrupt. They will not let a huge company like GM go under. Not gonna happen.

Well, I for one think that they're going to go the Ch.11 route, combined with government aid, so they can continue development on the promising things they have in the pipeline while maintaining warranty coverage.

In the end, I hope it means downsizing (as painful as that is to hear) and a reorganization. There are too many brands. GM needs an identity.

It will cost the govt. more to let GM go under than to help them. Think of all the unemployed people and the costs of that to the govt. (i.e. less taxes being collected from people with little income and then the social security they will be collecting, lost GDP to the U.S. economy, etc. etc.). Plus there is a huge psychological factor of a large co. that's been around for a long time going bankrupt. They will not let a huge company like GM go under. Not gonna happen.Excellent post. Basically some of the same things others have been say all along, yet a few alarmists are watching the media hype machine and are believing GM is going to collapse completely. THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!

GM folding would have an impact on the economy of biblical proportions. We're not talking about just North America folks, the entire world market would be effected by such actions. There is no way this new administration will ever let that happen. GM will get the low interest government loans long before they ever file for bankruptcy, and that's the bottom line.

I agree with the above.

Let's put this into cliff's notes...

If GM stops...

All employees will be out of a job. Staggering number.
All suppliers would be immediately out of business, and all employees would be out of a job. This number is immense and ripples into corners you would never think of. One example is this very site. No vendors to cover hosting costs...site goes down, hosting company loses money. Multiply this by 1,000 sites and hosting companies need to cut back. More people out of work and no jobs will be out there. This is just one small example that can be folded a million times over.
What about Ford? Some suppliers are customers of both GM and Ford and those suppliers and employees would be out of business immediately as well. So Ford would immediately be severely impacted...and would possibly follow GM...and that number of people out of work would become staggering.


So, to summarize...a seriously huge percentage of the US would be not only out of work, but not paying taxes and needing government assistance to live. But they will not get it with no one paying into the system...

So...well...

I am thinking that it would get very bad, very fast and the very last thing on anyone's mind at that point won't be cruising in a new Camaro. It may very well be not having to kill and eat each other to stay alive. Kinda funny...but perhaps true? I am no doomsday prophet nor am I trying to be, but this is to illustrate my point that GM collapsing simply cannot happen.

I agree with the above.

Let's put this into cliff's notes...

If GM stops...

All employees will be out of a job. Staggering number.
All suppliers would be immediately out of business, and all employees would be out of a job. This number is immense and ripples into corners you would never think of. One example is this very site. No vendors to cover hosting costs...site goes down, hosting company loses money. Multiply this by 1,000 sites and hosting companies need to cut back. More people out of work and no jobs will be out there. This is just one small example that can be folded a million times over.
What about Ford? Some suppliers are customers of both GM and Ford and those suppliers and employees would be out of business immediately as well. So Ford would immediately be severely impacted...and would possibly follow GM...and that number of people out of work would become staggering.


So, to summarize...a seriously huge percentage of the US would be not only out of work, but not paying taxes and needing government assistance to live. But they will not get it with no one paying into the system...

So...well...

I am thinking that it would get very bad, very fast and the very last thing on anyone's mind at that point won't be cruising in a new Camaro. It may very well be not having to kill and eat each other to stay alive. Kinda funny...but perhaps true? I am no doomsday prophet nor am I trying to be, but this is to illustrate my point that GM collapsing simply cannot happen.

Im not keen on a hand out but I do hope they get the loan. Im not sure people realize the real world consequences of whats going on. Yes the malls are packed but they are packed with loiterers not buyers. I think the lesson that should be learned from this downturn is, enjoy yourself but dont live beyond your means.

It seems like every time GM reports they Quarter losses there are layoffs to go with it. If they were to go through some kind of bankruptcy half the jobs will be lost anyway. I don't think GM will fold but by the time it’s all said and done GM will be a significantly smaller company. It just seems they cannot stop the bleeding. A Bailout/loan is just putting a band aid on the situation. To turn losses into profits a major restructuring plan must take place.

A smaller reorganized GM is not a bad thing in the long run. Many companies have gone this route and emerged much stronger.

With 7,000 "at msrp" orders on the books im willing to bet the dealers themselves would fill the lines and make the cars if they had too, lol.

What about Ford? Some suppliers are customers of both GM and Ford and those suppliers and employees would be out of business immediately as well. So Ford would immediately be severely impacted...and would possibly follow GM...and that number of people out of work would become staggering.


Not only that, but other companies, even toyota and honda would be affected. Even when Delphi was still part of GM, they built brake pads and other parts for toyota, BMW uses GM transmissions, almost every major automaker in the world would be affected in some way by a GM collapse.

I agree. There is simply no way the government can let GM die. The consequences would be catastrophic.

Just happened to be watching the news this morning, this is a bit of an update to everything stated here...

Democrats on Saturday (today), have asked for help for the failing auto industry.

Obama has clearly stated, that helping out the auto industry is a main priority.

The only reason Ford is not in the same situation, is that last year they mortgaged ALL of their factories.

My point is, no one on this site, aside from a few GM higher-ups, know exactly what GM can and can't do. It is absolutely ridiculous to throw around numbers and speculation and state it as fact.

We live in the information age. We know more than we should, and more than we need. And that information changes daily. All that has done, is turn everyone into a self proclaimed expert.

I was 20 years old in 1991, the last time we experienced a serious recession, the last time comsumer sales almost sank numerous companies. I am not going to sit here and claim to give you an economics lesson, I can't. But I do know that consumer spending dictates life or death for companies, the same way it did in 1991, the difference... everyone knew within 5 minutes this time.

The majority of people are still making the same wages they were two months ago, but suddenly they can't afford the 5 extra Christmas presents for their kids, because they got a financial update on their iphone that says the economy is in the tank. They stop buying products which drives the economy down even further, all because of something that may not even affect most people.

There is a quote (I always forget where it's from) that says something like, -A person is smart... people are dumb.

And if you are thinking that the economy is not affecting me... think about this. I came into a bit of money when I turned 18. That money has been tied up in stocks for almost 20 years. I have lost approximately $300,000 dollars in the last 5 months. The money that I have lost, is twice as much as I initially invested, 20 years ago. I am not the least bit worried about that money, I still go to work everyday, earn a paycheck, and provide for my family... Life goes on, end of story.

/end of :rant:

And if GM goes under or files for bankruptcy, who is responsible for the pensions of the retirees and workers?
The government is with the pension guaranty system.
That system is already in bad shape now and could never be able to absorb the blow a dead GM would cause.

Government help is the only answer. For the Big 3 AND the country.

Panic and speculation doesnt resolve anything. Every single recession that we have had we have pulled out of in less than a year. Sit tight,
Everyone pop a Valium and RELAX.

The question is: Will GM cut back enough before they get a government rescue loan to make themselves profitable when sales come back?
Obama has stated that he wants to help the 3 domestic automakers, but he wont take office until Jan 20, 2009. Current cash burn and slow sales for 3 more months and GM could be at minimum cash reserves by the end of Jan 09.

Just happened to be watching the news this morning, this is a bit of an update to everything stated here...

Good post, IMO.

It would be extremely sad if the Camaro never makes it to reality....why the HECK they are wanting to still wait until Feb. to start production beats the he** out of me.....

Let's hope someone steps in....


Personally, I would rather have a car built AFTER the holiday season, if you know what I mean. :burnout:

why the HECK they are wanting to still wait until Feb. to start production beats the he** out of me.....

:lol: No one wants to wait another minute. It is not like they are sitting there with the plant all lit up and workers standing at their stations and someone is snickering with their finger hovering over a big red button saying, "I wonder how long we can make people wait and complain? Let's push it! Nah...nah...let's make them wait a few more months to upset them more. We'll push it in February. *giggle-giggle*"

;) :lol:

I think GM needs to boot the union out. Paying people over $30 per hour to fill up a windshield washer reservoir on the assembly line is obviously wrong. I'm sure the union members will defend their gravy jobs by claiming they work hard and earn every penny, but I don't believe it. I've been a machinist for about 30 years now. In both union and non-union shops. My personal opinion is that union shops are some of the most inefficient operations I've ever seen. I have personally been told by union members to work slower or face the wrath of other union members. I've had bolts loosened on set-ups because I was multi-tasking (a big no-no). If one machinist's machine is broken and another machinist calls in sick, the machinist with the broken machine can't run the sick guy's machine because it's against the rules. He reads the paper all day instead. The only team spirit in union shops is the labor team against the management team. Offering ideas for improving production are frowned upon by labor. Pay is based more on seniority than ability.

Smaller shops that depend on everyone pulling their own weight would go out of business if the adopted the union way of doing things. It's like socialism in a capitalist game. It makes it harder to compete. Productivity goes down. Costs go up. Slackers keep their jobs. Hot shots are held back.

People with valuable skills have nothing to worry about in a non-union shop. The pay and job security are fine. People with skills can always find work. See here:

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/MAN/460502474x0x189693/9adcf817-96cf-4bb3-ac68-038e79d5facf/Talent%20Shortage%20Survey%20Results_2008_FINAL.pd f

Businesses should not be responsible for paying welfare to unqualified or lazy workers. It's also bad for morale when hard workers see lazy slobs doing nothing all day and getting away with it day after day. Trim the fat.

Since we're talking about union inefficiency... a large company here in Vancouver has a software shop. As with all software shops, there's an IT department. I currently work with someone that worked in the software department. This is his story, but it's stuck with me.

He got a new PC at work and didn't like where they placed it (he wanted it on the desk, they put it under). So he requested a move and the IT Department sat on it for a few weeks, so he got fed up and moved it himself.

A few days later, the IT guys (yes plural) showed up to do the move. One guy to physically move the machine, a second guy to plug in all the connectors (yes, I'm serious). When they saw that the PC had been moved without them doing it, they shut down the entire floor and made all employees leave the area; they weren't allowed back in until IT performed a check of all hardware, locations etc on the floor of the building. Additionally (of course) they complained to their boss, and it went up the chain to the union head. It turned into a big deal about how the non-unionized software guys are taking jobs from the unionized IT guys. In the end the guy quit because of how ridiculous it was.

When someone talks about unions I shudder because I can just imagine this sort of crap going on in the auto industry also.

ISmaller shops that depend on everyone pulling their own weight would go out of business if the adopted the union way of doing things. It's like socialism in a capitalist game.

Actually, the smaller shops are more like socialist shops. Everyone pulls together for the good of everyone: That's socialism.

The union shop you describe is more like actual capitalism: everyone looking out for themselves.

[qipte]Businesses should not be responsible for paying welfare to unqualified or lazy workers. It's also bad for morale when hard workers see lazy slobs doing nothing all day and getting away with it day after day. Trim the fat.[/QUOTE]

1. Businesses don't knowingly hire unqualified workers.
2. Businesses pay pensions (not welfare) to those who have served a very long time & retired.
3. Lazy slobs have a tendancy not to move up and remain in a lowly position till they eventially get fired. Management has goals, and other people in the shop get tired of pulling the weight of someone that doesn't put out the effort.

I've worked with unions as well. As a group, they are a pain in the ass sometimes with specific rules and the occasional whiner, but I have never seen or heard from anyone who actually has union working for them any of the stereotypes you're mentioning.

Panic and speculation doesnt resolve anything. Every single recession that we have had we have pulled out of in less than a year. Sit tight,
Everyone pop a Valium and RELAX.

1973 to 1975 & 1979 to 1981.

Since we're talking about union inefficiency... a large company here in Vancouver has a software shop. As with all software shops, there's an IT department. I currently work with someone that worked in the software department. This is his story, but it's stuck with me.

He got a new PC at work and didn't like where they placed it (he wanted it on the desk, they put it under). So he requested a move and the IT Department sat on it for a few weeks, so he got fed up and moved it himself.

A few days later, the IT guys (yes plural) showed up to do the move. One guy to physically move the machine, a second guy to plug in all the connectors (yes, I'm serious). When they saw that the PC had been moved without them doing it, they shut down the entire floor and made all employees leave the area; they weren't allowed back in until IT performed a check of all hardware, locations etc on the floor of the building. Additionally (of course) they complained to their boss, and it went up the chain to the union head. It turned into a big deal about how the non-unionized software guys are taking jobs from the unionized IT guys. In the end the guy quit because of how ridiculous it was.

When someone talks about unions I shudder because I can just imagine this sort of crap going on in the auto industry also.

The difference is that the UAW is very much aware that their very existance is on the line. The last 2 labor contracts have been shockingly liberal with compromises and short of any other way of putting it, "give backs". Layoffs are easier, closing a factory is easier, wages for starting workers is much lower, retirement for starting and mid grade workers is different, healthcare is no longer specifically the burden of the auto industry. There's plenty other examples.

However, all this is moot with regards with where GM (and the rest of the auto industry) finds itself today. 10 years ago, Ford had enough money in their banks to nearly buy up GM. Chrysler had almost more money than they could spend. GM (by GM standards) was doing very well. That was under far worse union rules and pay scales than it is today. What's different? Over reliance on Trucks and SUVs while abandoning the car market.

I've been saying since early this decade that it was a dangerous idea that left it venerable. I've also been ranting about it the past number of months. Now it seems that someone else came to that conclusion as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/business/26jane.html?scp=7&sq=general%20motors&st=cse

Short of it is that it's fashionable and easy to blame the unions for every ill in the auto industry. But it's a lie unless you realize that the bigger share of the blame lies with the decision makers who led US automakers to all but abandon the car market and all but put all resources into the truck market.

When someone talks about unions I shudder because I can just imagine this sort of crap going on in the auto industry also.

It's been going on in the auto industry for YEARS!!!! The original idea behind
a union is LONG gone. They are now so harmful to the auto industry and so
many people are blind(willingly and unwillingly) to this fact. I have family in
the auto industry and it makes me sick when I hear day in and day out the
crap that goes on. Don't get me wrong it's not the only problem, not by a long shot, but a significant
one still.

Just as I thought, it's a snooter troll.....


oh..BS...my brother just bought 2 new silverados for the business and a new yukon for the family....3 months after the yukon was bought pulling out of the garage the yukon gave an indication of not being happy....huge oil puddle right there on the garage floor....lukily under warrantty and just a bad seal...did it worry me...no...i had oil dry still around from my harley days in the 80's...far as big 3 being of any significance..no...236Kish is all they employee...(.6%) of GDP..compare to small business which employees roughly 67million people and is one-third of GDP.....thats puts detroit north in perspective..if they go under the effect overall will not be felt by the average guy...heck dealerships will only close down the location affected and move the workers to the foreign owned dealership as they will double in size..reality is they just dont matter anymore....do i care about those workers..yes..but what can they really do in detroit north until they finally unload the historical entitlements....are there smart people at detroit north...sure..it will be interesting to see if they want all the baggage that will come with pelosi offering the monies and then forcing kalifornia EPA, CAFE requirements on them....last time i checked even charlie rangall was fighting for detroit north not to be mandated into those atrocious policies

I think GM needs to boot the union out.

With a Democratic congress and president, this will not happen. Put it out of your mind and forget it, because the lynchpin to this "bailout" deal will be saving well-paying union jobs.

oh..BS...my brother just bought 2 new silverados for the business and a new yukon for the family....3 months after the yukon was bought pulling out of the garage the yukon gave an indication of not being happy....huge oil puddle right there on the garage floor....lukily under warrantty and just a bad seal...did it worry me...no...i had oil dry still around from my harley days in the 80's...far as big 3 being of any significance..no...236Kish is all they employee...(.6%) of GDP..compare to small business which employees roughly 67million people and is one-third of GDP.....thats puts detroit north in perspective..if they go under the effect overall will not be felt by the average guy...heck dealerships will only close down the location affected and move the workers to the foreign owned dealership as they will double in size..reality is they just dont matter anymore....do i care about those workers..yes..but what can they really do in detroit north until they finally unload the historical entitlements....are there smart people at detroit north...sure..it will be interesting to see if they want all the baggage that will come with pelosi offering the monies and then forcing kalifornia EPA, CAFE requirements on them....last time i checked even charlie rangall was fighting for detroit north not to be mandated into those atrocious policies

At least make your drivel easy to read. Its just an incoherant thought separated by periods.

The question is: Will GM cut back enough before they get a government rescue loan to make themselves profitable when sales come back?
Obama has stated that he wants to help the 3 domestic automakers, but he wont take office until Jan 20, 2009. Current cash burn and slow sales for 3 more months and GM could be at minimum cash reserves by the end of Jan 09.
I'm here to tell you that there are incredible numbers of cutbacks -- from people to expenses to things such as shutting off the escalators in buildings as soon as most employees leave the building......

I think GM needs to boot the union out. Paying people over $30 per hour to fill up a windshield washer reservoir on the assembly line is obviously wrong. I'm sure the union members will defend their gravy jobs by claiming they work hard and earn every penny, but I don't believe it. I've been a machinist for about 30 years now. In both union and non-union shops. My personal opinion is that union shops are some of the most inefficient operations I've ever seen. I have personally been told by union members to work slower or face the wrath of other union members. I've had bolts loosened on set-ups because I was multi-tasking (a big no-no). If one machinist's machine is broken and another machinist calls in sick, the machinist with the broken machine can't run the sick guy's machine because it's against the rules. He reads the paper all day instead. The only team spirit in union shops is the labor team against the management team. Offering ideas for improving production are frowned upon by labor. Pay is based more on seniority than ability.

Smaller shops that depend on everyone pulling their own weight would go out of business if the adopted the union way of doing things. It's like socialism in a capitalist game. It makes it harder to compete. Productivity goes down. Costs go up. Slackers keep their jobs. Hot shots are held back.

People with valuable skills have nothing to worry about in a non-union shop. The pay and job security are fine. People with skills can always find work. See here:

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/MAN/460502474x0x189693/9adcf817-96cf-4bb3-ac68-038e79d5facf/Talent%20Shortage%20Survey%20Results_2008_FINAL.pd f

Businesses should not be responsible for paying welfare to unqualified or lazy workers. It's also bad for morale when hard workers see lazy slobs doing nothing all day and getting away with it day after day. Trim the fat.


'Booting the union" solves very little.
Think about this: what happens to an area, such as Lordstown/Youngstown/Warren Ohio when you do that? The workers for GM and suppliers make less money - they very well may lose their homes - less money in the local economy..............

The REAL problem is that we need to level the playing field.

I'm not going to go into it one more time other than to say "you want to play in the U.S.? -- then you must get rid of your tarriffs/protectionist/trade-restriction policies........simple as that.

Someone on another thread posted "it's time to think of 'us' instead of 'me' ..." and I think that's one of the wisest things I've seen posted in some time.

'Booting the union" solves very little.
Think about this: what happens to an area, such as Lordstown/Youngstown/Warren Ohio when you do that? The workers for GM and suppliers make less money - they very well may lose their homes - less money in the local economy..............

The REAL problem is that we need to level the playing field.

I'm not going to go into it one more time other than to say "you want to play in the U.S.? -- then you must get rid of your tarriffs/protectionist/trade-restriction policies........simple as that.

Someone on another thread posted "it's time to think of 'us' instead of 'me' ..." and I think that's one of the wisest things I've seen posted in some time.

I agree right up to the point that no one is going to bail me out if I suddenly decide I don't want to pay my mortgage or that I didn't understand English when it said variable or ARM. I have no problem helping people who can't help themselves but a BIG problem with helping those who won't help themselves or who got themselves into a situation they had to have known was potentially bad.

And I do agree that "booting" the union is not the answer; slowly transforming the union to more resemble private industry pay scales is the approach they've been using in my area as American Axle and others have closed facilities and offered buyouts. You can only raise import tariffs so much before it comes back to haunt you on the other end...

holy crap! i just looked at their stock report. thats freaking awful.

hope you guys dont plan on cashing in that warranty :cry:

Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).

This is a great point that may be lost amongst this thread, but a basic definition of inflation is the devaluing of the dollar (things don't go up in price when it comes to inflation, the dollar is worth less and thus will buy less). The more money in circulation the less the dollar is worth. So when the government dumps 1 trillion dollars into circulation in the form of bailouts (which actually comes out of thin air, so don't think of it as tax dollars) it would have a affect on inflation, how much I dont know cause I'm not sure how much is in circulation. Another way to think of it is that money is created out of debt so every dollar that is lent out puts another dollar into circulation thus raising inflation.
Now where it gets confusing is with interest, If money is created out of debt it is impossible to ever get rid of debt because of the interest that is charged on loans. bankruptcies are built into the financial system because by charging interest on loans there is no way to pay of loans. Lets say we start out with no debt, so the government goes to the federal reserve and say we need 1 trillion dollars so 1 trillion dollars is dumped into circulation in the form of loans and to use a round number 10% is charged on these loans, how can you pay back 1.1 trillion if there is only 1 trillion in circulation, you can't. so it trickles down and some poor bugger has to claim bankruptcy. Well now it is big businesses claiming bankruptcy so they are getting bailed out in the form of these huge loans which are impossible to pay back which down the line creates more bankruptcies and also raises inflation even higher.

Sorry if it seemed like a rant or didn't make any sense for some, but these bailouts scare me. I don't have an answer though, allowing things to take their course would just crush the economy forget crippling it.:(

News flash:

Inflation is not an issue, nor is it important.

First, in a growing economy, there is ALWAYS inflation. Whether it's 2% or 10%.

Second, inflation is just as easily caused by the falling value of that country's currency as it is by rising cost of a major commodity (fod or fuel).

Third, there is no real inflationary pressure on the US economy now that fuel prices have collasped and the value of other countries currencies is dipping at a relatively quick pace next to the US dollar. Yes, borrowing is bound to go up and I suspect "printing" money (not exacly how it's done today, but it is the same principal) is also in the equasion but confidence drived the dollar just as much as other factors, and confidence of a US recovery seems to be pretty good.

Fourth... and the most important thing to remember is this:

[u]IT'S DEFLATION that's extremnely dangerous to [b]ANY economy and the hardest economic problem to control!

We know how to control inflation. Ratchet up intrest rates to cool buying and call it a day. Deflation is another story. Once it starts, there's little that can be done. Deflation is essentially what got us into the depression. Demand collapses, people are thrown out of work, demand collapses even more. As a result, prices for goods and services are pushed down to a point where the price for a good dips below the price to make it and companies go under. Wages plunge because there's a larger available workforce, and the rich-poor gap expands at a high rate.

In the 1930s, this was kept in check with (and this will gag alot of you) a income tax surcharge on the wealthy. It jumped the maximum tax rate from 23% to 63% then raised it again to 79% in 1935, and then in 1942 (wartime) the maximum tax rate was raised to 94%!

It dropped to 91% in 1945, 84% in 1950, jumped back to 92% in 1951, dropped to 84% in 1964 when the Kennedy tax cut dropped it to 70%.

The Reagan tax cut of '81 dropped the maximum tax rate from 70% to 50%

Throughout the 80s, various middle class deductions were repealed while at the same time the maximum tax rate dropped to 33%, going back up to 39% in '93. Today, the maximum tax rate is 35%. The lowest of any first world nations.

As a group, we've become kneejerk parinoid to the words "inflation" and "taxes". There's more than a few crazies on this board who think that the government runs on air and that in times of financial meltdowns the answer is drop taxes, reduce spending, and get the government out of the way. If that track had taken place during the depression, the United States of America would not be around to defeat Hitler, let alone today.

During wartime, it's mandatory that the US find ways of funding it. During the Civil War, and income tax was instituted. During World War 1, the Income tax was revised and wound up a part of the constitution. During WW2, the maximum tax rate went to 94%. The Korean War & the Cold War nuclear development and arming was fueled by maximun tax rates of over 90%.

No tax increase was done when we ran Vietnam and it eventually resulted in inflation and recession. The Saudis covered the expense of the 1st Iraq War and the US prospered after a economic hicup. The 2nd Iraq War has been run essentially unfunded, and we're paying the price today.

There are no free rides. The US government's income is a shadow of what it once was. We have dirt low taxes. So low that China is buying us out and controling policy. Inflation has no effect on any working person in the US as long as income keeps pace or exceeds the rate of inflation.

The real dangers are Deflation, Underfunded government. But the worse by far is a population that's so uneducated and so intellectually unintrested in actually taking the time and finding out facts that they'd rather parrot what some shrill says or is far more intrested in carrying some imaginary conservative or liberal banner and espouse ideas that would exasberate problems or even collaspe the United States' economy.

Blaming unions is dumb. Griping what GM obviously should have done over the years (I'm including myself on this item) doesn't matter. Complaining that people making over a quarter million per year will see their taxes return to 1990s levels is retarded if you aren't making over a quarter million per year, and when you look at not only what those people used to pay in taxes historically, but what they'd pay in other 1st world nations seems like whining.

Federal expendatures go ballistic when the economy goes down. Money goes out to the unemployed, various state agencies, and troubled businesses while money coming in as taxes plunges. That can be answered in 3 ways: Increased taxes, increased borrowing (most likely from China), or increase the amount of money in circulation (lowering the value of money and risking increased inflation). Pumping money to fix the problem as fast as possible is the best answer to minimize those 3 actions.

The issue here is simply getting loans. Loans to buy cars & homes, run businesses. Things that create the need for production and work. We get the money flowing, we get the economy moving.

If we don't, we're in deep doodoo.

gunionM - Very well put.

Regardless of what the news networks or uniformed "Me centered" people are parroting, this recession is all about a very steady loss of jobs we as a country have sustained over the last ten years.

We need GM, Ford, Chrysler, and every one of the good paying jobs they create.

There are no free rides. The US government's income is a shadow of what it once was. We have dirt low taxes. So low that China is buying us out and controling policy. Inflation has no effect on any working person in the US as long as income keeps pace or exceeds the rate of inflation.



Since when for probably 99% of working people has income kept pace with inflation.

Borrowing more and more is what got us into this problem in the first place please explain how it will get us out.

Since when for probably 99% of working people has income kept pace with inflation.

Borrowing more and more is what got us into this problem in the first place please explain how it will get us out.

No, lending money to "risky" people and to people who just flat out ignored "variable or ARM" is what got us into this mess.

I would venture to say it's both....irresponsible lending AND borrowing. I think our current situation SHOULD correct some of that in the near future.

This is the only worthwhile post in this thread:

Because that money is not tied to anything - it is artificial - they print it out of thin air. The poisonous Fed has pumped well over $1 trillion of this kind of money into the system in the past few months. What does this cause? Inflation - a gigaton worth of it. In fact, many well respected economists feel that we are in the verge of hyperinflation, and more bailouts would make this all but certain. The dollar will plummet in value, and that will remove the US from the global economy - a result much worse than GM eating a bullet (although this would be harder in the short run).

Wow, way to entirely miss the point. GM's cash problem has been rapidly accelerating to the point that IT MAY NOT BE IN EXISTENCE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CAMARO... or any car for that matter. You can call BS all you want, that doesn't change the facts surrounding their situation. Its the 11th hour for them.

The real dangers are Deflation, Underfunded government. But the worse by far is a population that's so uneducated and so intellectually unintrested in actually taking the time and finding out facts that they'd rather parrot what some shrill says or is far more intrested in carrying some imaginary conservative or liberal banner and espouse ideas that would exasberate problems or even collaspe the United States' economy.

Federal expendatures go ballistic when the economy goes down. Money goes out to the unemployed, various state agencies, and troubled businesses while money coming in as taxes plunges. That can be answered in 3 ways: Increased taxes, increased borrowing (most likely from China), or increase the amount of money in circulation (lowering the value of money and risking increased inflation). Pumping money to fix the problem as fast as possible is the best answer to minimize those 3 actions.

The issue here is simply getting loans. Loans to buy cars & homes, run businesses. Things that create the need for production and work. We get the money flowing, we get the economy moving.

If we don't, we're in deep doodoo.

The unfortunate caveat with all of this, is that our economy cannot sustain itself when it is run this way. Attempting to fix a debt problem with more debt is the equivalent of showing up at the ER with a stab wound and then the doctor sticking 4 knives in the wound to stop the bleeding. I have no doubt in my mind that we will be surpassed as a world superpower inside of 20 years, mostly due to the fact that we have no sound monetary policy. But I guess in our apathetic state, the easiest fix is always the best.

ahh..like you guys should learn how to build a product that people actually want to buy that is not in for repair 3 months after purchase?...


If I knew where you were I would honestly slap the **** out of you
for disrespecting Scott :mad: Have some respect you SOB !

If I knew where you were I would honestly slap the **** out of you
for disrespecting Scott :mad: Have some respect you SOB !

And I have your back. Don't Piss in the wind snooter. Know where you are and what forum you are pissing in.

Okay, calm down all...the point was made, all is cool. :)

The unfortunate caveat with all of this, is that our economy cannot sustain itself when it is run this way. Attempting to fix a debt problem with more debt is the equivalent of showing up at the ER with a stab wound and then the doctor sticking 4 knives in the wound to stop the bleeding. I have no doubt in my mind that we will be surpassed as a world superpower inside of 20 years, mostly due to the fact that we have no sound monetary policy. But I guess in our apathetic state, the easiest fix is always the best.

Good point, but he is right on for his point. Taking on more debt will definatly prevent deflation, especially a trillion dollars at a time. It is the thought process that is wrong.

Okay, calm down all...the point was made, all is cool. :)


*CJ puts his wupping stick away, rolls down sleaves, kicks dirt over voodoo doll and makes nice. *

:D