NEWS: Hyundai Genesis Coupe Beats Camaro and Challenger in Power-to-Weight Ratio [Archive]

5thGen

11-02-2008, 11:10 AM

I think on one hand, the I-4 turbo will have Hyundai doing GM's research for them. Seeing if the I-4 is accepted by the market.

However the Hyundai will be more accepted by the tuner crowd. Another thing to remember is that Hyundai is set up to make lower numbers and be profitable. So they are not looking to outsell the camaro, but they will take some sales. There are going to be buyers who wanted the opportunity to buy a RWD SR20DET powered Silvia, but couldn't.

But when you do factor in price, the 220 hp Turbo four is priced around the 300 hp LT and the 300+ hp V6 is priced closer to the 400 hp SS, not really a comparo IMHO.

If GM were to go for this crowd, I don't think the Camaro would be the way to go. I think a stripped down slightly smaller (and lighter) car on the same platform (or the next Kappa replacement) with a I-4 and RWD with a 5 speed (fiberglass or plastic body panels) and weighing under 3200 lbs would be good, simplify the car as much as possible and drop the price well under the 20k mark (say $15995 for a NA version) and you'd hit it square in the nose. Do the "scion" thing and offer a huge variety of add-ons, so the Tuner can get a lowered 19 inch wheeled big braked turbo version for $25,995, or a guy can get one and swap in a V8 and tub it.

An Aveo weighs under 2600 lbs. Now I understand switching to RWD adds weight, but I think a RWD small 2+2 can be made well under 3200 lbs if they took the econo-car approach and tuned the suspension more for sports. Huge brakes wouldn't be needed, a 5 speed and a NA 4cyl would be fine. A turbo option could be offered as well, like the cobalt SS.

8Banger

11-02-2008, 11:50 AM

Oh, but they did want to......

Oh your so in the no MR. Almighty. Please tell us more. :rolleyes:

Z284ever

11-02-2008, 11:59 AM

Oh your so in the no MR. Almighty. Please tell us more. :rolleyes:

Did you mean "know" when you said "no"?

I'd tell you more, but you're way too dense to communicate with.

ForYourMalice

11-02-2008, 12:31 PM

Chewbacca

11-02-2008, 12:46 PM

Yet people will continue to ignore reality and bitch about the weight of the car. But I guess there's no convincing the people who think the car should be priced BELOW the adjusted price a 2002 4th gen when with all of the power/features/performance of the actual 5th gen. You can't fix stupid.
Huh?

More than a few on here (myself included) have said they would be willing to pay more for less.

Less mass. Less size. Less gimmicky features wholly unrelated to the driving experience.

Meanwhile, others (probably the overwhelming majority) have essentially said "No way. I want to drive a rolling family room / entertainment center. Besides, it says "Camaro" on the fender so we know it will rool awl."

You're right. You can't fix stupid and I've all but written off this site because of it.

FS3800

11-02-2008, 01:16 PM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

got a source for that price? i cant find one

Ardskoay

11-02-2008, 01:57 PM

I can not understand the negativity here regarding the size. In fact, I think perhaps certain people should be banned for their constantly ruining threads with their incessant negativity. If some of you think the Camaro is massive compared to the Genesis. Lets take a look at the specs.

Length 190.4 Camaro vs 182.3
Height 54.2 Camaro vs. 54.3
Width 75.5 Camaro vs. 73.4

So, yeah the Camaro is longer and wider. But, how can you reduce these dimensions and keep the look that is so important to a car like the Camaro.
If you are going to get all shook up over about 8 inches in length, then maybe you should buy a Mini.
The Camaro is heavier also, but put a 6.2 V-8 in the Genesis and install the hardware to handle it, and the Genesis would gain quite a few pounds.

Z284ever

11-02-2008, 02:17 PM

. My point is that there was no possible way to reduce the weight of the Camaro unless GM made the dimensions smaller, .

So, yeah the Camaro is longer and wider. But, how can you reduce these dimensions and keep the look that is so important to a car like the Camaro.

Here's a thought. Don't base it on a LARGE sedan architecture....

Chewbacca

11-02-2008, 02:31 PM

In fact, I think perhaps certain people should be banned for their constantly ruining threads with their incessant negativity. :rolleyes: That attitude is exactly what I'm talking about.

Luckily that sentiment is not shared by the administrators. True they don't want to see incessant bickering and personal attacks but they will allow us to agree to disagree. It's the only thing that brings me back here in the face of the if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you-should-buy *insert car here*-and-be banned" crowd.

But, how can you reduce these dimensions and keep the look that is so important to a car like the Camaro. Just the look? That's the easy one. Ever hear of Smokey Yunick? Search for some info about his '66 Chevelle. If he could do that out of his garage in the '60s, I'm pretty sure GM design could fare even better.

If you don't / won't / can't search, Smokey shrunk every dimension of the car to its minimum. Parked by itself you couldn't tell the difference but it was smaller.

And faster. :)

Z284ever

11-02-2008, 02:35 PM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

I wonder how expensive the Camaro will end up costing in actual developement dollars.

I mean the whole reason Camaro is so large and heavy was the argument that it would be "cheaper" to base it on Zeta rather than a new architecture. Cheaper because the reported $1.2 billion which GM had already spent on Zeta could be spread across several hundred thousand Zeta sedans annually. And thus the business case for the Zeta Camaro was born. But those several hundred thousand sedans never materialized - and GM has already spent the reported $1.2 billion, with I guess the Camaro and G8 picking up the tab.

Funny, (funny weird, not funny ha-ha) how things turn out. I betcha it would have been cheaper to develop an all new, smaller architecture for the Camaro, than to have put it on the "cheaper" Zeta.

A smaller architecture which also might have been used to spin off a sedan or two - now that would have made GM look like "Johnny on the spot" right now.

Chewbacca

11-02-2008, 02:52 PM

A smaller architecture which also might have been used to spin off a sedan or two - now that would have made GM look like "Johnny on the spot" right now.

Side rant:

My wife and I are enormously disgusted and frustrated with GM right now. We have owned nothing but GM products for the last 20 years. We are now both in the market for a new car and the largest automaker in the world has nothing we want.

I wanted a modern pony car. Didn't get it. So now I'm looking for a low mileage '04 Z06. My first used car in 17 years (since I was a teenager). Thought about a C6 Z06 but this car will be raced. The C5s are still beating the C6s in SCCA Super Stock so why bother paying an extra $40 - 50K?

The wife wants a few more features in her car than I do but nothing crazy. She wants a comfortable two door daily driver that is sporty, under $40K, nicely styled and fun to drive without being big.

GM has nothing we are interested in. We have a maxed out GM card rebate and nothing to spend it on.

I'm looking at used cars and she is looking at Nissans and Infinitis. Hyundai is looking to crowd GM on their own turf while GM looks at merging with Chrysler. Meanwhile probably hundreds of years worth of experience flee their sinking ship.

Unbelievable.....

/Side rant

Dragoneye

11-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Here's a thought. Don't base it on a LARGE sedan architecture....
Putting it on one that doesn't exist would have made more sense?:think:

diarmadhi

11-02-2008, 03:03 PM

I've said it before and I will say it again..

They should have called it something else and let the camaro name stay dead.. so that you camaro "enthusiasts" could not have something to whine about..

BUT its a smart business case... put out a great car that sets ALL KINDS of standards.. but drop a well known name on it so that the die hards that will by anything with its name on it get drawn in as well to increase sales... on top of bringing in new buyers that could CARE LESS about a label (like namely me).

Makes sense to me

ForYourMalice

11-02-2008, 03:05 PM

More than a few on here (myself included) have said they would be willing to pay more for less.

The same cannot be said for the widespread base that GM is marketing this car too. When you are running a business, the wants of 95%+ people trump those of "more than a few" on an enthusiast message board. And how much weight would we be able to save by removing gimmicks that aren't related to the driving experience? 150 lbs MAX?

Chewbacca

11-02-2008, 03:22 PM

The same cannot be said for the widespread base that GM is marketing this car too. When you are running a business, the wants of 95%+ people trump those of "more than a few" on an enthusiast message board. And how much weight would we be able to save by removing gimmicks that aren't related to the driving experience? 150 lbs MAX?

We've been round and round about this in too many threads but here goes...

What if the money put towards a grossly underutilized Zeta and Camaro's version of Zeta was put towards a smaller platform and spread across multiple cars like what was actually supposed to happen (as mentioned by Charlie)?

Now we have a smaller / lighter starting point with the benefit of economies of scale.

What if whomever was in charge didn't have such a hard on for the GT500 and the Camaro was never engineered to withstand the 500+ hp engine that will now evidently never actually be seen in the car?

Now the car could be lighter (and probably cheaper).

What if that lighter / smaller / cheaper car could be optioned and offered in a proper "track" package called ohhh... Z28?
What if that lighter / smaller / cheaper car could still be optioned to the gills for the I-don't care-about-weight crowd and called ohhh... SS?
What if the lighter / smaller / cheaper car's V6 model gets head turning, eye opening fuel mileage numbers?

Isn't everybody happy now? Doesn't the car sell in even greater numbers?

Believe me, I don't think I'm smarter than everyone at GM. I'm sure someobody or multiple somebodies ran the same scenario. For whatever reason, it didn't happen.

Z284ever

11-02-2008, 03:44 PM

Putting it on one that doesn't exist would have made more sense?:think:

See post #37.

tmoney1

11-02-2008, 04:46 PM

We've been round and round about this in too many threads but here goes...

What if the money put towards a grossly underutilized Zeta and Camaro's version of Zeta was put towards a smaller platform and spread across multiple cars like what was actually supposed to happen (as mentioned by Charlie)?

Now we have a smaller / lighter starting point with the benefit of economies of scale.

What if whomever was in charge didn't have such a hard on for the GT500 and the Camaro was never engineered to withstand the 500+ hp engine that will now evidently never actually be seen in the car?

Now the car could be lighter (and probably cheaper).

What if that lighter / smaller / cheaper car could be optioned and offered in a proper "track" package called ohhh... Z28?
What if that lighter / smaller / cheaper car could still be optioned to the gills for the I-don't care-about-weight crowd and called ohhh... SS?
What if the lighter / smaller / cheaper car's V6 model gets head turning, eye opening fuel mileage numbers?

Isn't everybody happy now? Doesn't the car sell in even greater numbers?

Believe me, I don't think I'm smarter than everyone at GM. I'm sure someobody or multiple somebodies ran the same scenario. For whatever reason, it didn't happen.

Man why dont you get a job at GM and fix all of their problems. I am sure they would just love that seeing how smart you are.

JasonD

11-02-2008, 05:10 PM

Okay guys, no need to rehash the same old stuff and no need to get too far off topic.

TrickStang37

11-02-2008, 05:46 PM

and most definitely a FORD. :)

I agree with that. But I don't know if you've noticed, but Ford is HIGHER than Chevy too, so your little comeback doesn't quite make much sense. :lol::lol:

DvBoard

11-02-2008, 06:05 PM

got a source for that price? i cant find one

It was on the same link. I had to do some looking, but it was at most one click off that page.

I can not understand the negativity here regarding the size. In fact, I think perhaps certain people should be banned for their constantly ruining threads with their incessant negativity. If some of you think the Camaro is massive compared to the Genesis. Lets take a look at the specs.

Length 190.4 Camaro vs 182.3
Height 54.2 Camaro vs. 54.3
Width 75.5 Camaro vs. 73.4

So, yeah the Camaro is longer and wider. But, how can you reduce these dimensions and keep the look that is so important to a car like the Camaro.
If you are going to get all shook up over about 8 inches in length, then maybe you should buy a Mini.
The Camaro is heavier also, but put a 6.2 V-8 in the Genesis and install the hardware to handle it, and the Genesis would gain quite a few pounds.
I don't think the issue is that one is too big, but moreso that "only" 8 inches managed to add 300 to 400lbs!

I wonder how expensive the Camaro will end up costing in actual developement dollars.

I mean the whole reason Camaro is so large and heavy was the argument that it would be "cheaper" to base it on Zeta rather than a new architecture. Cheaper because the reported $1.2 billion which GM had already spent on Zeta could be spread across several hundred thousand Zeta sedans annually. And thus the business case for the Zeta Camaro was born. But those several hundred thousand sedans never materialized - and GM has already spent the reported $1.2 billion, with I guess the Camaro and G8 picking up the tab.

Funny, (funny weird, not funny ha-ha) how things turn out. I betcha it would have been cheaper to develop an all new, smaller architecture for the Camaro, than to have put it on the "cheaper" Zeta.

A smaller architecture which also might have been used to spin off a sedan or two - now that would have made GM look like "Johnny on the spot" right now.
:yes: it would have been better, unfortunately it's a bit late now. The best we can hope to do is get someone at GM to realise "hey, maybe this wasn't such a good idea."

Okay guys, no need to rehash the same old stuff and no need to get too far off topic.
Just pointing out that it can be done and without breaking the bank. I mean sure you get more with the Camaro: More hp, More stopping power, More weight, More gas usage, More expensive tires...etc..

jg95z28

11-02-2008, 07:13 PM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

I guess if we were willing to buy an asian built Camaro, GM could have achieved those numbers. :p

Chewbacca

11-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Man why dont you get a job at GM and fix all of their problems. I am sure they would just love that seeing how smart you are. More of that deadly wit from the crowd I referenced earlier. :lol:

Read the last part of my post you quoted and get back to me, 'kay?

ronssito

11-02-2008, 08:48 PM

Ain't too pretty though...is she?

:lol:

FS3800

11-03-2008, 12:04 AM

It was on the same link. I had to do some looking, but it was at most one click off that page.

..

found it..

that price is the US dollar equivalent of it's price in the home market of Korea... it'll likely be more expensive than that.. i bet it'll be well above $30,000 to buy one in the US

PLaSMaN

11-03-2008, 09:25 AM

Side rant:

My wife and I are enormously disgusted and frustrated with GM right now. We have owned nothing but GM products for the last 20 years. We are now both in the market for a new car and the largest automaker in the world has nothing we want.

I wanted a modern pony car. Didn't get it. So now I'm looking for a low mileage '04 Z06. My first used car in 17 years (since I was a teenager). Thought about a C6 Z06 but this car will be raced. The C5s are still beating the C6s in SCCA Super Stock so why bother paying an extra $40 - 50K?

The wife wants a few more features in her car than I do but nothing crazy. She wants a comfortable two door daily driver that is sporty, under $40K, nicely styled and fun to drive without being big.

GM has nothing we are interested in. We have a maxed out GM card rebate and nothing to spend it on.

I'm looking at used cars and she is looking at Nissans and Infinitis. Hyundai is looking to crowd GM on their own turf while GM looks at merging with Chrysler. Meanwhile probably hundreds of years worth of experience flee their sinking ship.

Unbelievable.....

/Side rant

Aren't you precisly stating that you would like a Camaro and that the Camaro would fill in your wife's criteria too ?

I really don't understand, you seem to describe the car you'd like as being the Camaro, and that your wife's taste for a cheap sporty 2-door coupe would be spot-on with the Camaro, probably a V6, yet you seem to hold a grudge saying GM has nothing you would want ??

Surely you are not suggesting that you and your wife cannot wait a few more months to get your new cars... surely you are not alluding that the Camaro won't fit your criteria ??

BTW : Subjectively speaking, this Genesis earns my "Ugliest 2 door coupe" award !!!!

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 10:05 AM

Here's some specs, if anyone is interested. Some cool packages and ----30mpg.

Part 1

Hyundai Releases Additional Engineering and Feature Information for the All-New 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Genesis Coupe Delivers an Estimated 30 MPG

Last update: 6:35 p.m. EDT Oct. 30, 2008
FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif., Oct 30, 2008 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Hyundai released additional engineering and feature information for the all-new 2010 Genesis Coupe today. The Genesis Coupe, and its rear-wheel drive platform-mate the Genesis sedan will make their Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) show debuts next week.
"One of the program targets for the Genesis engineering team was world-class weight efficiency," said John Krafcik, vice president, Product Development and Strategic Planning, Hyundai Motor America. "When you look at the size and content of both Genesis models, you'll find we lead all our competitors in weight efficiency. We also target leadership in power-to-weight ratio. We think that's just smart strategy in today's world. It pays huge dividends in both performance and fuel economy, and that's especially important in the segments in which these cars compete."

Vehicle Engine Curb Weight (pounds) Length (inches)

Genesis sedan 3.8-liter V6 3748 195.9
Genesis sedan 4.6-liter V8 4012 195.9
Genesis Coupe 2.0-liter turbo 3303 182.3
Genesis Coupe 3.8-liter V6 3402 182.3

Both Genesis Coupe and sedan are rich in ultra-high-strength steel, leading to world-class body rigidity. The Genesis sedan is 10-12 percent stiffer in torsion than Lexus and Mercedes-Benz competitors, yet it is lighter than these benchmark sedans, and offers more interior room. At just 3,303 pounds, the Genesis Coupe 2.0T is hundreds of pounds lighter than all of its IRS-equipped rear-wheel-drive competitors, with body-bending rigidity 24 percent higher than BMW E46 M3.

Vehicle Length Curb Weight Horsepower Power-to-weight
(lbs.) ratio
Genesis Coupe 3.8 182.3 3402 310 (est.) 11.0
BMW 335i 181.1 3571 300 11.9
Infiniti G37 183.1 3616 330 11.0
Camaro LS 190.4 3780 300 (est.) 12.6
Challenger 197.7 3819 250 15.3

This focus on weight efficiency pays dividends across the board. The Genesis sedan owes its ability to deliver both strong performance (0-60 mph in just 5.7 seconds) and excellent fuel economy (25 mpg EPA highway rating) in great part due to its impressive weight efficiency. Similarly, the Genesis Coupe 2.0T sets a new benchmark for front-engine, rear-wheel-drive gasoline fuel efficiency with a remarkable 30 mpg estimated EPA highway rating, because of its weight-efficient platform and its efficient 2.0-liter, low-pressure, turbocharged four-cylinder engine.
"While some turbochargers sacrifice smooth drivability with high operating boost pressures in the 20 psi range, Genesis Coupe uses a refined, low-boost calibration for smoothness and efficiency," said Derek Joyce, Genesis Coupe product manager. "We could have opted solely for big performance numbers, but our focus for the 2.0T was a more balanced package."
Genesis Coupe product highlights
With the start of U.S. market production now just a few months away, Hyundai Motor America is releasing model configuration and color choices for the 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe.
"Genesis sedan has set a new benchmark for the $35,000-$40,000 premium sedan, and we think Genesis Coupe will do the same in the sport coupe segment," Krafcik said. "From our 30-mpg 2.0T with its low-pressure intercooled 4-cylinder turbo, to the 3.8 Track model with an estimated 310-hp and Brembo braking system, Genesis Coupe offers a wide range of powertrain and performance choices for driving enthusiasts of all stripes."
There are seven basic Genesis Coupe configurations:

-- 2.0T
-- 2.0T Premium
-- 2.0T Track (6-speed manual transmission only)
-- 2.0T R-Spec (late availability, 6-speed manual transmission only)
-- 3.8
-- 3.8 Grand Touring
-- 3.8 Track

GENESIS COUPE 2.0T: A MORE EFFICIENT TAKE ON THE REAR-WHEEL DRIVE SPORT COUPE
Standard equipment includes:

-- 2.0-liter, low-pressure, turbocharged, intercooled 4-cylinder engine
with dual continuously variable valve timing delivering an estimated
210-hp (regular), estimated 220 hp (premium), an estimated 223 ft-lbs
of torque (at just 2,000 rpm), an estimated 30 mpg EPA highway rating
and an estimated top speed of 137 mph
-- M6VR1 6-speed manual transmission (Optional: A5SR1 5-speed electronic
automatic transmission with lockup torque converter and steering
wheel-mounted paddle-shift Shiftronic controls)
-- 18-inch Euroflange alloy wheels with staggered Bridgestone Potenza
RE92A tires (P225/45VR18 front, P245/45VR18 rear)
-- Electronic Stability Control with ABS, Electronic Brake-Force
Distribution and Brake Assist
-- 12.6-inch ventilated front rotors with 60mm single piston floating
caliper
-- 12.4-inch solid rear rotors with 43mm single piston floating caliper
-- Sport-tuned MacPherson strut dual-link front suspension and five-link
rear independent suspension, 24mm front stabilizer bar, 19mm rear
stabilizer bar
-- Strut brace
-- Quick-ratio hydraulic steering (2.7 turns lock-to-lock)
-- Tire Pressure Monitoring System
-- Front, side, side air curtain air bags
-- Active front head restraints
-- Driver's lumbar support
-- Black-out front lower fascia
-- Trip computer
-- Air conditioning
-- Satin silver and chrome interior accents
-- Keyless entry system
-- Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
-- Power windows (one-touch up and down), door locks and mirrors
-- AM/FM/XM/CD audio system with six speakers
-- USB/iPod/Aux jack connectivity
-- Steering wheel audio controls
-- Cruise control
-- Projector beam headlamps with auto light control
-- Integrated Bluetooth including steering wheel controls
-- Temporary spare with steel wheel (T135/90D17)

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 10:06 AM

Part 2:

The 2.0T Premium model adds or substitutes:

-- Power driver seat
-- 360-watt AM/FM/XM/CD-changer Infinity premium audio system with 10
speakers including DVC subwoofer, eight-channel external amplifier,
and diversity antenna
-- Smart Key with push-button start
-- Electrochromic mirror with HomeLink and compass
-- Sunroof
-- Navigation system (mid-year availability)

The factory-tuned 2.0T Track model builds from the 2.0T Premium, adding/substituting:
-- 19-inch Euroflange gunmetal finish alloy wheels with staggered
high-performance summer-compound Bridgestone Potenza RE050A tires
(P225/40YR19 front, P245/40YR19 rear)
-- Unique Brembo braking system with 13.4-inch ventilated front rotors,
42mm four-piston fixed front calipers (red), 13.0-inch ventilated rear
rotors, 32mm+28mm four-piston fixed rear calipers (red)
-- Unique track-tuned suspension, higher-rate coil springs,
higher-control shock absorbers, 25mm front stabilizer bar, 22mm rear
stabilizer bar, strut brace
-- Torsen-type limited-slip differential
-- Black leather bolster seats with high-friction red cloth insert
-- Aluminum pedals
-- Aero windshield wipers
-- Rear spoiler
-- Xenon HID headlamps
-- Fog lamps
-- Lightweight temporary spare with aluminum wheel (T135/80D18)
-- Navigation system (mid-year availability)
-- Note: Automatic transmission not available with 2.0T Track

Later in the model year, a tuner-focused performance model, R-Spec, will arrive at Hyundai dealerships. Genesis Coupe R-Spec is meant to be the ultimate upgradeable, affordable, turbocharged rear-wheel drive performance platform. R-Spec equipment includes:
-- 2.0-liter low-pressure turbocharged intercooled four-cylinder engine
with dual continuously variable valve timing delivering an estimated
210-hp (regular), estimated 220-hp (premium), an estimated 30 mpg EPA
highway rating and an estimated top speed of 137 mph
-- 6-speed manual transmission
-- Electronic Stability Control with ABS, Electronic Brake-Force
Distribution and Brake Assist
-- 19-inch Euroflange gunmetal finish alloy wheels with staggered
high-performance summer-compound Bridgestone Potenza RE050A tires
(P225/40YR19 front, P245/40YR19 rear)
-- Brembo braking system with 13.4-inch ventilated front rotors, 42mm
four-piston fixed front calipers (red), 13.0-inch ventilated rear
rotors, 32mm+28mm four-piston fixed rear calipers (red)
-- Track model suspension tuning (higher-rate coil springs,
higher-control shock absorbers, 25mm front stabilizer bar, 22mm rear
stabilizer bar, strut brace)
-- Torsen-type limited-slip differential
-- Quick-ratio hydraulic steering (2.7 turns lock-to-lock)
-- Tire Pressure Monitoring System
-- Front, side, side air curtain air bags
-- Active front head restraints
-- Driver's lumbar support
-- Air conditioning
-- Keyless entry system
-- Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
-- Power windows (one-touch up and down), door locks and mirrors
-- AM/FM/XM/CD audio system with six speakers
-- USB/iPod/Aux jack connectivity
-- Projector beam headlamps
-- Lightweight temporary spare with aluminum wheel (T135/80D18)
-- Note: Automatic transmission not available with R-Spec

GENESIS 3.8: 310 HORSEPOWER AND STANDARD LEATHER INTERIOR -- A NEW BENCHMARK FOR PERFORMANCE AND REFINEMENT IN ITS CLASS
Standard equipment includes 2.0T equipment, and adds or substitutes:

-- 3.8L DOHC V6 engine with dual continuously variable valve timing
delivering an estimated 306-hp (regular), 310-hp (premium), and a top
speed of 149 mph
-- M6VR2 6-speed manual transmission (Optional: ZF 6HP19 6-speed
electronic automatic with lockup torque converter and steering
wheel-mounted paddle-shift Shiftronic controls)
-- Black leather seats
-- Fully automatic temperature control
-- Premium door sill plates
-- Chrome front fascia accents

In addition to 3.8 equipment, the 3.8 Grand Touring adds or substitutes:

-- Unique brown leather seat interior environment
-- Power driver seat
-- Heated driver and passenger seat
-- 360-watt AM/FM/XM/CD-changer Infinity premium audio system with 10
speakers including DVC subwoofer, eight-channel external amplifier,
and diversity antenna
-- Smart Key with push-button start
-- Xenon HID headlamps
-- Electrochromic mirror with HomeLink and compass
-- Heated mirrors with outside turn signal indicators
-- Backup warning system
-- Sunroof
-- Navigation system (mid-year availability)

The factory-tuned 3.8 Track model deletes backup warning system and chrome front fascia accents from the Grand Touring model, and adds or substitutes:
-- Black leather seats
-- 19-inch Euroflange gunmetal finish alloy wheels with staggered
high-performance summer-compound Bridgestone Potenza RE050A tires
(P225/40YR19 front, P245/40YR19 rear)
-- Unique Brembo braking system with 13.4-inch ventilated front rotors,
42mm four-piston fixed front calipers (red), 13.0-inch ventilated rear
rotors, 32mm+28mm four-piston fixed rear calipers (red)
-- Unique track-tuned suspension, higher-rate coil springs,
higher-control shock absorbers, 25mm front stabilizer bar, 22mm rear
stabilizer bar, strut brace
-- Torsen-type limited-slip differential
-- Aluminum pedals
-- Aero windshield wipers
-- Rear spoiler
-- Black-out front lower fascia
-- Xenon HID headlamps
-- Fog lamps
-- Lightweight temporary spare with aluminum wheel (T135/80D18)

Genesis Coupe will be available in nine exterior colors:

-- Karussell White
-- Bathurst Black
-- Silverstone
-- Nordschleife Gray
-- Acqua Minerale Blue
-- Tsukuba Red
-- Mirabeau Blue
-- Lime Rock Green
-- Interlagos Yellow

Genesis Coupe features four different interior themes:

-- Black environment, premium black cloth seats (2.0T, 2.0T Premium,
R-Spec)
-- Black environment, black leather-bolstered seats with high-friction
red cloth insert (2.0T Track)
-- Black environment, black leather seats (3.8, 3.8 Track)
-- Black environment, saddle brown leather seats (3.8 Grand Touring)

HYUNDAI MOTOR AMERICA
Hyundai Motor America, headquartered in Fountain Valley, Calif., is a subsidiary of Hyundai Motor Co. of South Korea. Hyundai vehicles are distributed throughout the United States by Hyundai Motor America and are sold and serviced through 800 dealerships nationwide.
Journalists are invited to visit our news media web site: http://www.hyundainews.com
SOURCE Hyundai Motor America
http://www.hyundainews.com

skorpion317

11-03-2008, 10:11 AM

How much would it weigh if that chassis/drivetrain had to deal with a large V8?

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 10:22 AM

How much would it weigh if that chassis/drivetrain had to deal with a large V8?

Well, on the Camaro the LS3 version weighs about 100 pounds more than the 3.6 version....

JakeRobb

11-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Disclaimer: I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I apologize if I'm rehashing anything here. I skimmed, and I didn't see anyone making these points on my first pass through the thread:

I am assuming by "power to weight ratio being better", they are comparing against the V6 models of the Challenger and Camaro....?
The link says they're comparing to the Camaro LS. I find it interesting to note that the V6 Genesis's price (assuming that the one posted by DvBoard is correct) is several thousand dollars higher than the price of an LS.

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?
Camaro handles a lot more than 310hp. How many parts on the Genesis do you think would break if you gave it 422hp and started doing aggressive dragstrip launches?

I think on one hand, the I-4 turbo will have Hyundai doing GM's research for them. Seeing if the I-4 is accepted by the market.
GM already has several I-4 turbo vehicles on the market. :confused:

skorpion317

11-03-2008, 11:12 AM

Well, on the Camaro the LS3 version weighs about 100 pounds more than the 3.6 version....

Zeta was also designed from the start to deal with a high-powered V8.

The Genesis wasn't.

Imagine if it was? It sure as hell wouldn't be 3400 lbs.

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Zeta was also designed from the start to deal with a high-powered V8.

The Genesis wasn't.

Imagine if it was? It sure as hell wouldn't be 3400 lbs.

The Genesis sedan has a 375 hp V8...

Lookit, I think the Genesis coupe V6 and the Camaro V6 are very comparable and will compete toe to toe. Yes, the Genesis coupe is not available with a V8. But the Camaro does not have a turbo 4 version which weighs 3300 lbs and gets 30 mpg either.

I guess a question you could ask is, which will sell more, Camaro's two versions of the SS or Genesis's 4 versions of the T-4.

jcamere94z28

11-03-2008, 11:37 AM

So wait... the top dog Genesis has better Power-to-weight
(lbs.) ratio than the base V6 Camaro? is this what all the fuss is about?

jg95z28

11-03-2008, 11:40 AM

Let's compare apples with apples shall we? Build the 5th gen Camaro in Asia where labor and materials are much cheaper and our North American safety laws for manufacturing can be ignored, and I'd be willing to bet GM could be a lighter, faster and better Genesis fighter. :p

JakeRobb

11-03-2008, 01:12 PM

The Genesis sedan has a 375 hp V8...

The Genesis Coupe and Genesis Sedan are entirely different vehicles. The Tau V8 doesn't even fit in the coupe.

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 03:26 PM

The Genesis Coupe and Genesis Sedan are entirely different vehicles.

Well, you should take that up with Hyundai, since this is what they say:

Genesis Coupe uses the same flexible rear-wheel drive architecture originally developed for the Genesis sport sedan.

JakeRobb

11-03-2008, 04:04 PM

Well, you should take that up with Hyundai, since this is what they say:

Okay, they have some things in common.

Nonetheless, the V8 doesn't fit in the coupe, which means there are significant differences. And, since we're talking about weight, it's worthwhile to note that according to Hyundai's web site, the the Genesis sedan with the V8 weighs 4012 pounds!

2010_5thgen

11-03-2008, 04:10 PM

that thing is hideous! wow what an ugly car.

Dragoneye

11-03-2008, 04:16 PM

See post #37.
I did...that's why I asked the question. You would have had GM take the time and $$ to develop a brand new archetecture for the Camaro? I would be extremely worried it would delay the production of the Camaro significantly.

I guess a question you could ask is, which will sell more, Camaro's two versions of the SS or Genesis's 4 versions of the T-4.
:shrug: Isn't that like asking: "Which will sell better, a Prius or a Hummer?" Not particularly fair on a comparison-level.

Well, you should take that up with Hyundai...
I vauquely remember that it was Hyundai, themselves, who said it wouldn't fit. Don't have a link/quote, though...:think:

Z284ever

11-03-2008, 04:39 PM

I did...that's why I asked the question. You would have had GM take the time and $$ to develop a brand new archetecture for the Camaro? I would be extremely worried it would delay the production of the Camaro significantly.

:shrug: Isn't that like asking: "Which will sell better, a Prius or a Hummer?" Not particularly fair on a comparison-level.

I vauquely remember that it was Hyundai, themselves, who said it wouldn't fit. Don't have a link/quote, though...:think:

1) They had the time, had it been approved 3 years ago when it was being internally debated. And it wouldn't have cost any more than what was spent on Zeta. The big bonus for GM would have been an architecture which could have given years of ROI in our current environment, rather than one who's business case has virtually imploded and is all but dead right out of the gate.

2) Prius vs Hummer? You'll have to explain that to me.

3) I remember that there was a report last year that the V8 wouldn't fit the coupe. AFAIK, that didn't come directly from Hyundai.

Chewbacca

11-03-2008, 05:34 PM

Aren't you precisly stating that you would like a Camaro and that the Camaro would fill in your wife's criteria too ?

I really don't understand, you seem to describe the car you'd like as being the Camaro, and that your wife's taste for a cheap sporty 2-door coupe would be spot-on with the Camaro, probably a V6, yet you seem to hold a grudge saying GM has nothing you would want ??

Surely you are not suggesting that you and your wife cannot wait a few more months to get your new cars... surely you are not alluding that the Camaro won't fit your criteria ??

Indeed. This is exactly why I'm so frustrated with GM. If they missed me, a multi time Camaro buyer, with this car... geez.....

I have little interest in a car that heavy. I have exactly NO interest in a Camaro that heavy. Period. Big... I could probably tolerate. My current 4th gen is big and I've lived with it this long. The ridiculous interior... I could probably tolerate if the rest of the package was there for me. I simply CANNOT, however, live with a car that is more than 500 lbs heavier than my '96 and runs the same width tire.

I'm sure this will be an extremely nice street car. From everything I've seen, it'll be one of the nicest cars at it's price point. Problem is, it's just not a Camaro, I don't care how it's spun. I don't care what the fender says. At the end of the day, it's really a modern Chevelle. Nothing wrong with that. It's just not right for me. Knock 300 lbs out of the car, give it smaller diameter but wider wheels and a "fighter cockpit" like interior and I'm first in line even at $10K over what it lists for now.

My wife isn't a Camaro girl. Too "ruffian" for her I guess. She was, however, interested in a CTC or perhaps a coupe version of the G8. Then she found out what those cars weigh and how big they really are. She's tired of her current car (which she refers to as a boat) and it's only ~3500 lbs. She dearly wants a Solstice coupe but it is just horribly impractical and it doesn't seem like the long term fit/finish/quality is there.

So yeah... what else is there? :(

8Banger

11-03-2008, 07:06 PM

I agree with that. But I don't know if you've noticed, but Ford is HIGHER than Chevy too, so your little comeback doesn't quite make much sense. :lol::lol:

Really, well I guess you can cherry pick to get what you want for results. ;) Hey, I'm just messing with ya, I noticed
you drive a stang. :)

Dragoneye

11-03-2008, 11:49 PM

1) They had the time, had it been approved 3 years ago when it was being internally debated. And it wouldn't have cost any more than what was spent on Zeta. The big bonus for GM would have been an architecture which could have given years of ROI in our current environment, rather than one who's business case has virtually imploded and is all but dead right out of the gate.

3 years ago was just before they began on the Camaro itself, so essentially -- they'd be building both the platform, and the car it's to support side-by-side and hope they go together well at the end IF it were to arrive Early '09. That would have been my concern. Even if it saved a couple hundred pounds (you'll have to excuse my skepticism at the idea of a ~3400 Camaro...:shrug:) I guess I just don't feel like it would have been worth it. What they have already is class-leading in nearly every aspect...and if the rumors are true, they're updating Zeta to be lighter, etc...so the car could benefit from that in years to come(sooner rather than later, hopefully), and then really throw the Genesis coupe through the ringer.

2) Prius vs Hummer? You'll have to explain that to me.
You compared the coupe's base-model fuel-sipper (comparatively) to the competitions high-end, stupid-fast model (which consequently consumes more fuel)...I just felt it was as strange a comparison as a Prius vs a Hummer.:p

3) I remember that there was a report last year that the V8 wouldn't fit the coupe. AFAIK, that didn't come directly from Hyundai.
At least I'm not going crazy, then, if you remember something, too.

I want to point out, too, that I don't think this Genesis coupe is bad in any way...but I'm cautious in giving it any praise...yet.

bossco

11-04-2008, 12:30 AM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

To bad an LS3 bolted into a 3,402 lbs Camaro would produce about the same results as bolting an LS3 into a 3,402 lbs Genesis - in two words "not pretty".

teal98

11-04-2008, 03:40 AM

Here's a thought. Don't base it on a LARGE sedan architecture....

The Genesis Coupe was based on a LARGE sedan architecture, and it doesn't seem to have hurt it.

What we don't know is how much a V8 400hp Coupe would have weighed. The sedan gains about 300 pounds going from the V6 to the V8. The Coupe might gain more, because the basic structure has undoubtedly been reengineered not to take the V8.

I think that GM needs a RWD coupe the size of the Genesis (Alpha, hopefully). Whether it has a V8 and is called Camaro is grist for debate.

teal98

11-04-2008, 03:50 AM

The Genesis sedan has a 375 hp V8...

And it weighs the same as the G8 GT. I don't think Hyundai has any secret sauce, so why could Zeta not have been shrunk if GM had the same goals as Hyundai (310hp top engine)?

As someone else pointed out, the Camaro was designed for a 550+hp LSA V8. It seems as though all models carry much of the structure for that engine.

If the Camaro had been designed from the start for the 300hp V6 as the largest engine, then I don't see why it couldn't be close to the Genesis Coupe in size and weight.

Maybe we should start a poll. Who would rather have a 300hp V6 Camaro weighing 3400 pounds versus a 3860 pound 422hp V8 Camaro.

In this market, I think the 3400 pound model would do better, but you'd get screams from the Camaro loyalists.

teal98

11-04-2008, 03:53 AM

Lookit, I think the Genesis coupe V6 and the Camaro V6 are very comparable and will compete toe to toe. Yes, the Genesis coupe is not available with a V8. But the Camaro does not have a turbo 4 version which weighs 3300 lbs and gets 30 mpg either.

I agree with this, by the way. Starting off with a 350 pound weight handicap in that comparison will hurt. I predict that every comparison test will mention it.

teal98

11-04-2008, 04:04 AM

3) I remember that there was a report last year that the V8 wouldn't fit the coupe. AFAIK, that didn't come directly from Hyundai.

One of the magazines (don't remember which) directly asked the question, and they were told that the V8 will not fit.

It'd be real interesting to know the estimate from Hyundai engineers as to how much weight a V8 Coupe model would add. We know the front end would have to be enlarged as a start.

When Lexus squeezed a V8 into the IS, they added almost 300 pounds. The IS is based on the GS platform, but reduced in size, and originally V6-only. Of course, the IS-F is still about 50 pounds lighter than the Camaro SS/LS3, and the IS-F has an 8-spd auto.

The GS460 is close to the same weight as the G8 GT, but the GS350 is quite a bit lighter than the G8 V6. I don't know if that's because the GM V8s are so much lighter than the Lexus V8s (with the V6s being about the same weight) or because Lexus puts more differentiation in the V6 and V8 models.

teal98

11-04-2008, 04:19 AM

My wife isn't a Camaro girl. Too "ruffian" for her I guess. She was, however, interested in a CTC or perhaps a coupe version of the G8. Then she found out what those cars weigh and how big they really are. She's tired of her current car (which she refers to as a boat) and it's only ~3500 lbs. She dearly wants a Solstice coupe but it is just horribly impractical and it doesn't seem like the long term fit/finish/quality is there.

So yeah... what else is there? :(

Hmm. So It's 335i or Genesis Coupe time then?

I take it she doesn't want FWD? GM has the Cobalt or G6 coupes. But you know that, so I'm guessing FWD is out (as it would be for me).

Chewbacca

11-04-2008, 09:23 AM

Hmm. So It's 335i or Genesis Coupe time then?

I take it she doesn't want FWD? GM has the Cobalt or G6 coupes. But you know that, so I'm guessing FWD is out (as it would be for me). We're looking at the 135.
She probably wouldn't go for a Hyundai.
I've lobbied hard for a Cobalt SS (knowing full well what they can do) but it's been a non-starter as she doesn't want a sport compact - boy racer - econobox type of vehicle.
She is also seriously looking at the G37 coupe and upcoming 370Z.
We haven't entirely ruled out a Solstice GXP coupe.

FWD isn't neccesarily out for her but it is for me obviously. However, if some long lost rich uncle left me his estate and money was no longer an issue, I would really enjoy that Cobalt SS as an everyday driver as long as I could still have a V8 fun car in the garage.

95firehawk

11-04-2008, 11:48 AM

1) They had the time, had it been approved 3 years ago when it was being internally debated. And it wouldn't have cost any more than what was spent on Zeta. The big bonus for GM would have been an architecture which could have given years of ROI in our current environment, rather than one who's business case has virtually imploded and is all but dead right out of the gate.

So once again you're claiming that you know better than an entire company in terms of what's cost effective and more profitable? Get over yourself Buickman Jr. Your speculations are no better than the one's pertaining to the next Mustang's performance. Even if EVERYONE on this board hated this car it still wouldn't make up but a fraction of the total buying public (which has a drastically different view of cars than this board does.) So to say that "my idea" would have been better is nothing more than pretensious (sp?) garbage.

Indeed. This is exactly why I'm so frustrated with GM. If they missed me, a multi time Camaro buyer, with this car... geez.....

I have little interest in a car that heavy. I have exactly NO interest in a Camaro that heavy. Period. Big... I could probably tolerate. My current 4th gen is big and I've lived with it this long. The ridiculous interior... I could probably tolerate if the rest of the package was there for me. I simply CANNOT, however, live with a car that is more than 500 lbs heavier than my '96 and runs the same width tire.

Even if this car will accelerate, handle, ride, and brake better than your '96 you still CANNOT have this car? Looking at more than just stats or dimensions on paper isn't really giving any car a fair shake.

My wife isn't a Camaro girl. Too "ruffian" for her I guess. She was, however, interested in a CTC or perhaps a coupe version of the G8. Then she found out what those cars weigh and how big they really are. She's tired of her current car (which she refers to as a boat) and it's only ~3500 lbs. She dearly wants a Solstice coupe but it is just horribly impractical and it doesn't seem like the long term fit/finish/quality is there.
So yeah... what else is there? :(

Just wait till you go sit in the Hyundai. Then the real comparison can begin.:p
Does your gf want something that "is" lighter than 3500 lbs or "feels" lighter than 3500 lbs? If its only perception then I still wouldn't rule out the Camaro.

JakeRobb

11-04-2008, 11:49 AM

95firehawk

11-04-2008, 12:06 PM

We're looking at the 135.
She probably wouldn't go for a Hyundai.
I've lobbied hard for a Cobalt SS (knowing full well what they can do) but it's been a non-starter as she doesn't want a sport compact - boy racer - econobox type of vehicle.
She is also seriously looking at the G37 coupe and upcoming 370Z.
We haven't entirely ruled out a Solstice GXP coupe.

FWD isn't neccesarily out for her but it is for me obviously. However, if some long lost rich uncle left me his estate and money was no longer an issue, I would really enjoy that Cobalt SS as an everyday driver as long as I could still have a V8 fun car in the garage.

Just did a quick comparison of a few of these cars:

Camaro 422 hp 3900lbs $30000

G37 330hp 3650lbs $35000

335i 330hp 3600lbs $38000

135i 300hp 3375lbs $29000

GXPcoupe 260hp 2900lbs $30000

All of these figues are base numbers found from various car rags and their respective websites. This is before any options. If size and weight are paramount the lower the better then the last two choices are pretty much the only option. However, these two cars are EXTREMELY small. To step up into something a little bigger then I still don't see where the Camaro falls short here. Especially since its cheaper while offering better "stats" than the others.

tally114

11-04-2008, 12:24 PM

My SS is gonna be the perfect car for me. I wont 'track' it. But when I wanna open it up, it'll GO. The weight thing is not THAT big of a deal for me. GM tried to meet all of our desires, collectively. Thats a super hard task. The people on this site are ENTHUSIASTS. We're passionate about our cars(Obviously). I think the people on this site will be the toughest to please. We're also the ones that GM is gonna listen to when trying to perfect the Camaro. I just wanted to show the camaro some love....now back to your regular programming.

Diggs

11-04-2008, 01:14 PM

Chewbacca

11-04-2008, 03:53 PM

Even if this car will accelerate, handle, ride, and brake better than your '96 you still CANNOT have this car? Looking at more than just stats or dimensions on paper isn't really giving any car a fair shake.. I'll grant you the acceleration and definitely the ride, but handling and braking? No way. Without getting back into it, this just isn't going to happen. Not using the same size tire as the old car. Weight kills, especially in what I do with my cars.

Not looking to debate this. I've been told many times to move on. So, sadly I have. After owning a '68, a new '91 and a new '96, this car just isn't for me. I remain hopeful for a potential 6th gen.

Just wait till you go sit in the Hyundai. Then the real comparison can begin.:p
Does your gf want something that "is" lighter than 3500 lbs or "feels" lighter than 3500 lbs? If its only perception then I still wouldn't rule out the Camaro. Wife, and near as I can tell... both. And if I can't get her to even drive a Cobalt SS, I seriously doubt I could get her to sit in a Hyundai. I'll suggest it though.

How about a C6 Corvette? '05s are down to the low-30k range these days. You can even get an LS3-powered '08 with under 10k on the odometer for 37-38k, which is close to the base price of a 135i. I'd love a C6 and very much prefer the look of those cars over the C5 but I'd have to have a Z06. That brings us back to what I said earlier... why bother spending the extra money? The C5 Z06 still has the C6 Z06 covered and the C6 Z51 is obviously slower than the C6 Z06. I'd really be behind the 8-ball with a "normal" Corvette. I've been seeing 10K - 25K mile '03 - '04 Z06s in the $28 - $32K range. An unbelievable bargain. Besides, most everything parts wise is cheaper on the old car. Parts do wear out when you drive the poo out of cars.

Remember I'm looking for a nice street car that can pull double duty and supplement the Camaro as a race car.

*EDIT* If you mean a Corvette for my wife... I've already suggested it. She doesn't want a 'vette for the same reason she doesn't want a Camaro.

If size and weight are paramount the lower the better then the last two choices are pretty much the only option. However, these two cars are EXTREMELY small. To step up into something a little bigger then I still don't see where the Camaro falls short here. Especially since its cheaper while offering better "stats" than the others. She doesn't want a Camaro. Says it just isn't her. Honestly, I sort of agree with her. Then again, a Corvette isn't me and I'm evidently going to end up in one of those. *shrug*

Once again, I know weight doesn't matter to everybody. Once again, I'm sensitive to it because of what I do with my cars. A few hundred pounds makes a big difference. Trust me. I'm sure the GM engineers would heartily agree with me. My wife has seen firsthand what weight will do to different cars. She has seen/felt the difference in my car from stock to now and from my 3rd gen to this one. I guess she has become sensitive to it as well.

Saab 9-3 Convertible, say a 2006 with a CPO warranty (6 years or 100k).
It has 2 doors, 4 seats, isn't a pig, and for ~$700 you can tune it to 250hp and almost 290 lb/ft of torque. For a little more you can get the turbo 6. It's also quite the looker IMO. Saab is actually something we've not considered. Does the GM Card money work with Saab?

Diggs

11-04-2008, 05:02 PM

Saab is actually something we've not considered. Does the GM Card money work with Saab?

Unfortunately no, but it's pretty easy to haggle the price on these cars. End of year models usually go for upwards of $8k off MSRP. That's not much help to use your points, but in case you did go look at them and got sticker shock that price is NOT what anyone pays.

Chewbacca

11-04-2008, 05:08 PM

teal98

11-04-2008, 05:31 PM

I was just looking at Saab's site. No two doors? No sale.

The wife has stated that she doesn't want another four door. This took Acura and Lexus off the list from the get go. I know Lexus makes a two door in that hardtop 'vert but I refuse to let her drive something that hideous. :D

Thank you! :cool:

Your wife's opinions on Camaro (and your concurrence) illustrate that Chevy could use a coupe with a different name, to appeal to all those for whom "a Camaro isn't for me". The stigma is unfortunate, but it's probably easier not to fight it.

Diggs

11-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Geoff Chadwick

11-05-2008, 12:50 PM

And, since we're talking about weight, it's worthwhile to note that according to Hyundai's web site, the the Genesis sedan with the V8 weighs 4012 pounds!

And it weighs the same as the G8 GT. I don't think Hyundai has any secret sauce,

ding ding!

You're still not talking 4,000lb weight here (maybe 3700-3800lb) for a Genesis Coupe with a V8 - perhaps a little more - but that is still for only a 375hp V8.

Really, the shock is that Zeta sedan was meant for 500hp+ and doesnt weigh a bit more than the 375hp Genesis sedan. Not to mention the additional torque of the LS...

Stick an LSA under the hood of all 4 vehicles (with shoehorn if required) and see what happens. The Torque I bet would tear the Genesis apart.

Though I've gotta go back with Z284Ever as always - Chewbacca has proven through his (and his wife's) looking that a slightly smaller and lighter coupe with a high-end V6 would be plenty nice.

Zeta was meant to be a *lot* of vehicles. Now it isnt. This was what justified the Camaro as "profit profit profit" as the chassis costs would be so wide spread. The existence of several other Zeta vehicles would have dropped the Camaro's bottom line and obviously made GMs cars more profitable, which is a problem they have right now. :think:

2010_5thgen

11-05-2008, 01:40 PM

Eric77TA

11-05-2008, 01:40 PM

I was just looking at Saab's site. No two doors? No sale.

The wife has stated that she doesn't want another four door. This took Acura and Lexus off the list from the get go. I know Lexus makes a two door in that hardtop 'vert but I refuse to let her drive something that hideous. :D

What about the coupe that Toyota and Subaru are supposed to be working on? Supposedly it's small, RWD (or AWD with rear bias) and last I heard was for the 2010 model year. It's supposed to be the spiritual successor to the AE86 Corolla - but hopefully with a little sportier styling.

I'm curious to see how that car pans out. If it comes in at the 20k starting price they're looking for, I think it will do well.

Not sure when it's supposed to actually hit the streets, though.

1fastdog

11-05-2008, 01:47 PM

I'll grant you the acceleration and definitely the ride, but handling and braking? No way. Without getting back into it, this just isn't going to happen. Not using the same size tire as the old car. Weight kills, especially in what I do with my cars.

Not looking to debate this. I've been told many times to move on. So, sadly I have. After owning a '68, a new '91 and a new '96, this car just isn't for me. I remain hopeful for a potential 6th gen.

Wife, and near as I can tell... both. And if I can't get her to even drive a Cobalt SS, I seriously doubt I could get her to sit in a Hyundai. I'll suggest it though.

I'd love a C6 and very much prefer the look of those cars over the C5 but I'd have to have a Z06. That brings us back to what I said earlier... why bother spending the extra money? The C5 Z06 still has the C6 Z06 covered and the C6 Z51 is obviously slower than the C6 Z06. I'd really be behind the 8-ball with a "normal" Corvette. I've been seeing 10K - 25K mile '03 - '04 Z06s in the $28 - $32K range. An unbelievable bargain. Besides, most everything parts wise is cheaper on the old car. Parts do wear out when you drive the poo out of cars.

Remember I'm looking for a nice street car that can pull double duty and supplement the Camaro as a race car.

*EDIT* If you mean a Corvette for my wife... I've already suggested it. She doesn't want a 'vette for the same reason she doesn't want a Camaro.

She doesn't want a Camaro. Says it just isn't her. Honestly, I sort of agree with her. Then again, a Corvette isn't me and I'm evidently going to end up in one of those. *shrug*

Once again, I know weight doesn't matter to everybody. Once again, I'm sensitive to it because of what I do with my cars. A few hundred pounds makes a big difference. Trust me. I'm sure the GM engineers would heartily agree with me. My wife has seen firsthand what weight will do to different cars. She has seen/felt the difference in my car from stock to now and from my 3rd gen to this one. I guess she has become sensitive to it as well.

Saab is actually something we've not considered. Does the GM Card money work with Saab?

If you are absolutely off the new Camaro < actually a very nice car > front up for the C5 Z06. Not that difficult to get under 3K pounds.

It is on the useless list when it comes to passengers or all around utility. I does have a nice wheelbase and can scoot if needed.

My punishment is a bit harsher than Settlemire's, when it comes to leaving the GM fold...

99SilverSS

11-05-2008, 01:55 PM

Wow this thread has more twists, turns and flip flops than a poorly run Presidential campaign. :eek: Sorry John.
I was going to add that per a close friend locally at Kia engineering, stated that the Genesis coupe and sedan are not as closely related platform wise as say the Zeta G8 and Camaro. Thus the agrument that Hyundai built a low weight coupe from heavier sedan roots capable of handling V8 power doesn't hold up. The coupe is different.

But since this has turned into a find a car for Chewbacca's wife... I've got nothing. Good luck Korry my only advice is get the lady something that keeps her quiet because trying to get a woman something to make them happy isn't possible. ;)

JakeRobb

11-05-2008, 02:05 PM

I'd love a C6 and very much prefer the look of those cars over the C5 but I'd have to have a Z06. That brings us back to what I said earlier... why bother spending the extra money? The C5 Z06 still has the C6 Z06 covered and the C6 Z51 is obviously slower than the C6 Z06. I'd really be behind the 8-ball with a "normal" Corvette. I've been seeing 10K - 25K mile '03 - '04 Z06s in the $28 - $32K range. An unbelievable bargain. Besides, most everything parts wise is cheaper on the old car. Parts do wear out when you drive the poo out of cars.

I'm confused.

"I'd have to have a Z06." Even with a C6? A C6 Z51 and a C5 Z06 are extremely close in performance, with a slight edge going to the C5. One or two mods on the C6 and you have a clear advantage.

"The C5 Z06 still has the C6 Z06 covered" What? The C6Z is by far the better-performing car in ever regard.

"I'd really be behind the 8-ball with a 'normal' Corvette." Again, what? We're talking about a DD for your wife, aren't we? It's not like she's going racing (except maybe for fun), right?

Chewbacca

11-05-2008, 05:18 PM

The convertible has 2 doors. :think:

I was just looking at Saab's site. No two doors? No sale.

The wife has stated that she doesn't want another four door. This took Acura and Lexus off the list from the get go. I know Lexus makes a two door in that hardtop 'vert but I refuse to let her drive something that hideous. :D

what about an altima coupe? Had an Altima for a rental last year. I couldn't imagine living with that POS for the life of a loan.

What about the coupe that Toyota and Subaru are supposed to be working on? Supposedly it's small, RWD (or AWD with rear bias) and last I heard was for the 2010 model year. It's supposed to be the spiritual successor to the AE86 Corolla - but hopefully with a little sportier styling.

I'm curious to see how that car pans out. If it comes in at the 20k starting price they're looking for, I think it will do well.

Not sure when it's supposed to actually hit the streets, though.

I don't know anything about it. If it is something along the lines of a two door IS we may have a winner.

If you are absolutely off the new Camaro < actually a very nice car > front up for the C5 Z06. Not that difficult to get under 3K pounds.

It is on the useless list when it comes to passengers or all around utility. I does have a nice wheelbase and can scoot if needed.

My punishment is a bit harsher than Settlemire's, when it comes to leaving the GM fold...

:think: I believe I've already mentioned (several times) that I'm going to do just that. I disagree with the utility statement. C5s have a surprising amount of room inside. Even the fixed roofs.

I'm confused. We know. ;)

"I'd have to have a Z06." Even with a C6? A C6 Z51 and a C5 Z06 are extremely close in performance, with a slight edge going to the C5. One or two mods on the C6 and you have a clear advantage. Because I'm absolutely in love with the LS7. Because I can't mod the car in Super Stock.

"The C5 Z06 still has the C6 Z06 covered" What? The C6Z is by far the better-performing car in ever regard. Wrong. Even after several years of development, the C6 Z06 still gets beat by the C5 when comparing driver apples to driver apples. I personally know of one racer who dumped his less than 1 year old C6 Z06 because he was getting beat by the older cars at every event. This guy is a national trophy winner in his previous C5 car.

Also, while not a primary concern for me, the C6 brakes are problematic for the track guys. Not only are the rotors vented in the wrong direction on one side of the car but the silly "padlet" system gets very expensive and just does not hold up even to that type of use.

Don't get me wrong, I covet that car like few others. But why pay more money for a more-expensive-to-maintain second place car? If / when the C6 demonstrates superiority over the C5 and it comes down in price, I will re-evaluate. Hopefully this will occur right around the time I get tired of the C5.

"I'd really be behind the 8-ball with a 'normal' Corvette." Again, what? We're talking about a DD for your wife, aren't we? It's not like she's going racing (except maybe for fun), right?
As I said in my response to your post, I suggested the Corvette to her but she doesn't want one for the same reason she doesn't want a Camaro.

Diggs

11-05-2008, 05:46 PM

I don't know what a Lexus hardtop vert has to do with the Saab. Oh well, I tried. I hope you find what you're looking for.

Chewbacca

11-05-2008, 06:22 PM

I thought you were talking about the convertible Lexus in that post. *shrug* I was simultaneously answering five posts and slipped.

In your original post yes I know you mentioned the Saab 'vert. My wife isn't looking for a convertible.

teal98

11-05-2008, 07:17 PM

Wow this thread has more twists, turns and flip flops than a poorly run Presidential campaign. :eek: Sorry John.
I was going to add that per a close friend locally at Kia engineering, stated that the Genesis coupe and sedan are not as closely related platform wise as say the Zeta G8 and Camaro. Thus the agrument that Hyundai built a low weight coupe from heavier sedan roots capable of handling V8 power doesn't hold up. The coupe is different.

I think the moral equivalent would be to shorten and lighten Zeta such that there was only space and strength for the DI 3.6. Supposedly, there is a project in Oz to do something like that.

Dragoneye

11-06-2008, 03:36 AM

I think the moral equivalent would be to shorten and lighten Zeta such that there was only space and strength for the DI 3.6. Supposedly, there is a project in Oz to do something like that.

If true...then that formula could return slightly better than G8 GT performance...which is great, considering...

Black5thgen

11-06-2008, 03:39 PM

and at end of the day, Hyundai still has a higher resale value than a chevy.

What are you puffin on chief. We're not talking about toyota or honda here. Hyundia has a terrible resale value. Compare a sonata limited to a malibu LTZ and the chevy has a better resale by at least 3 thousand.

Chevymuscle311

11-08-2008, 11:36 AM

and at end of the day, Hyundai still has a higher resale value than a chevy.

At the end of the day that doesnt matter. Chevys are worth keeping, Ford is what you would want to get rid of :lol:

changed1mg

01-20-2009, 12:52 AM

What are you puffin on chief. We're not talking about toyota or honda here. Hyundia has a terrible resale value. Compare a sonata limited to a malibu LTZ and the chevy has a better resale by at least 3 thousand.

No offense, but you may wanna do some fact-checking, 5thGen.

According to AutomotiveLeaseGuide.com, Hyundai is on par with Chevrolet in resale value, so all those who used to talk about Hyundai not being a contender apparently haven't been paying attention since 2000. Hyundai sneaked up and stole a chunk of customers. Now it's up to the established players to step up and accept the challenge.

If you want to compare 2-door, 4-seater, RWD, V6, sports cars, at a price point around $25,000, you've got the Mustang, Camaro, Genesis. I'd include the 370Z and Challenger, but the 370Z doesn't have a backseat and the Challenger is a bit to big, IMO, for true comparison (but the American Muscle diehards might have something else to say about that. W/e.) To be honest, though the Genesis competes for sales with the Camaro and Mustang, it’s not really a pony car – it’s focus is too divided and doesn’t rely on nostalgia.

To get more specific, let's talk trim (I've heard enough people trying to compare Accords to Camaros and Camaro V-8s to Genesis V-6s.)
Mustang Coupe V6 Premium($21,479*, 210HP, {http://bp2.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/2009-Ford-Mustang#page=/Models/}, *Employee Pricing)
Camaro 1LT ($24,630, 304HP, {http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro/pdf/2010+Camaro+Specifications.pdf}, pg. 5)
Genesis 3.8 (G~$25,500 based on Korean spec V6 at around $27,000 USD with options similar to our 3.8 GT. {http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/05/first-hyundai-genesis-coupe-commercial-hits-korea-pricing-revea/})

See, when you think of it practically it's a pretty compelling comparison. Power-wise it's only a battle of the Camaro vs. Genesis, and that'll only be settled with a test-drive. Aesthetics are a subjective matter, so while I may like the Genesis' sleek lines a bit more than the crisp folds and muscles of the Camaro, someone else could point out the Genesis' odd-looking tiny grille. That's up to the consumer.

All that said, I’ve been checking out the Genesis pretty deeply, since I expect to be in the market within the year. I hadn’t considered the Camaro, but now I am (hence my arrival to the forum *hi*). I was looking at used G35s and the Genesis. I'd totally forgotten the Camaro was coming out; I'm not really a fan of that whole retro-styling-thing the American companies have been doing recently - I'm 23, what do I care if the car looks a little like the 1970 model? I also figured it'd be priced way over the Genesis, so now that I've heard some more about it and checked out some more info, I'm surprised (in a good way) to see it's a competitor to the Genesis Coupe.

So, yea, to everyone saying the Genesis isn't even a contender, this just goes to show you that the competition is whoever the consumer says it is.

bossco

01-20-2009, 09:35 PM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

I dont think Camaro guys could live with the indignity of a Camaro that only had enough chassis to handle what a base V8 Mustang puts out in power.

bossco

01-20-2009, 09:53 PM

Putting it on one that doesn't exist would have made more sense?:think:

worked for Mustang, the S-197 is pretty much its own deal, it shared very little with the Lincoln LS and while the GT500 is a porker, the GT and V6 are comparitively light.

Granted, the Mustang does not have an IRS, but the penalty for including one would not place the weight no where near the 3700 lbs of the V6 F5 - then there is the whole matter of the F5's near show car appearence, something the S-197 didn't have to labor under as well.

bossco

01-20-2009, 10:00 PM

North American safety laws for manufacturing can be ignored

LMAO, did anybody catch the "How its Made" episode on zippers? They had guys in the zipper plant with no shoes or safety glasses, and had guys handling molten aluminum with little to protection as well.

TOO Z MAXX

01-21-2009, 01:45 AM

I thought weight didnt matter?? all this talk about weight and to the buying public it doesnt matter blah blah blah. I am taking bets that the 6th gen Camaro will be a lighter car.

teal98

01-21-2009, 01:59 AM

I thought weight didnt matter?? all this talk about weight and to the buying public it doesnt matter blah blah blah. I am taking bets that the 6th gen Camaro will be a lighter car.

A novel thought.

This thread is old and the data is obsolete. Updated specs from Hyundai indicate that the car will weigh about 150 pounds more than the early specs that started this thread, making the V6 model base weight a bit more than the '10 Mustang GT base weight.

guionM

01-21-2009, 06:13 AM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

Not if you wanted the Camaro to be roughly the size of a Cobalt, as the Hyundai Genisis coupe is..... and not have a V8 available.

Even then, being that the cost of the chassis wouldn't be spread on anything else (the Camaro's chassis cost is spread out on 250+K VE and WM Zetas made in Australia, China, and Korea), it would be more expensive.

Plus, do you honestly think you can send over 420 lbs/ft of torque through the Hyundai Genesis coupe's drivetrain? Might be intresting to see how the Genesis coupe holds up with an LS3 bolted in and repeatedly doing dragstrip launches with nice grippy tires.

I know this concept is extremely hard to accept, but.......

1. There are no free rides... everything is a tradeoff....

2. If there was a way to link high powered RWD V8s, 4 passenger cars, IRS, 3500 pounds curb weights, and low cost manufacturing costs, then someone would have done it by now.... Camaro SS and Challenger SRT8 are (believe it or not) a couple of the the lightest 425 horsepower, rear wheel drive, independently rear suspended cars in the world that seat more than 2 people and cost less than $50,000.

3. It's in an automaker's best intrest to make (especially) a relatively low fuel economy car as light as possible in order to get the best fuel economy as possible.... but they also want to make sure you don't go and sue them when your car breaks because you did a burnout or shifted too aggressively.

Xilant

01-21-2009, 12:17 PM

Hyundai: 3,402lbs and 310hp = 1hp per 10.97lbs @ $28,636

Yet somehow asking for a Camaro to be under 3500lbs was "too expensive"?

You do realize that the V8 Genesis (I know it's 4 door, the coupe isn't available with the V8) is 4004 pounds right?

With the V8 and it's added torque you need a much bigger overall drivetrain, wider wheels, bigger breaks, stiffer body... It all adds up.

Don't tell me that the corvette only weighs 3200 pounds. These supercars are are small and they all have fiberglass bodies that cut weight by +/-500 pounds.

Besides, the genesis is ugly as balls, especially its rear end. It's like mix of a G6, Altima, Caymen and turned out a freakin monster.

bkpliskin

04-07-2009, 04:12 PM

I know I'm digging up an old thread, but I feel I have to speak my mind on this. I know GM execs have mishandled the company for years.. but I don't even know why we are talking about a Hyundai sport coupe, especially on a GM Performance forum. I will never, EVER, buy a vehicle from a foreign automaker. I will hold out and support businesses whos profits come back into the country. And as far as the Genesis' performance goes, I could care less, those things won't be coming anywhere close to my Camaro, I'll kick shredded asphalt on their hoods just like all the other similar imports. I hope to God nobody on this forum is considering buying one of these. This is not the only reason our economy is in trouble, but with everyone buying so many foreign products our country's infrastructure (specifically the ability to manufacture anything and export) is crumbling. I may not agree with everything the government does or with what US executives have done with this country, but it's still my country and I won't stand around and watch it crumble. Keep faith that our companies can get things turned around. Camaro 'til the day I die. USA til the day I die.

79Zee28

04-07-2009, 06:06 PM

Funny that I passed a Hundai dealer today and noticed they had two of the models parked out front. One was red, the other a green. The green actually stood out more. I would not dismiss these cars. I see more and more Hyundai's on the road. I don't like it but, they offer a lot for the money. I would without a doubt buy a Camaro over this car. But, I have a connection to the Camaro. That said, younger people don't even know what a Camaro is. They'll be motivated by other factors. Price/value will get them behind the wheel.

BigDarknFast

04-07-2009, 07:21 PM

JakeRobb

04-07-2009, 07:27 PM

Edmunds compared the Hyundai to the Camaro, and the Camaro won.

:shrug:

Fbodfather

04-07-2009, 11:40 PM

Sport compact, like what? A Civic? Trust me, you won't even have the slightest concern there, because this Camaro is nowhere near that. In fact it seems pretty darned huge to me. Sitting in the IVER car at Indy, it felt like a tight cockpit perched on top of a massive car.

BTW, guess what one of the targets is for this Camaro? The Civic Si. On the other end is the 3 series and G37. All this according to the Camaro team.

well then -- I guess you're gonna love your Genesis, aren't you?

I know --sounds facetious, no?

Look -- I know how "passionate" you feel about the 3rd gen -- and I know you feel that the 4th gen was an 'embarrassment" -- your words, not mine.....

Reading thru your comments over the past two years, it appears that you will never be happy or satisfied with the 5th gen.......

..............and I guess we both have to accept that.

I will not make apologies.......because, you see, I sit back at many many auto shows -- where people do not know me -- and I hear the comments..........and I must tell you -- this car is getting an amazing amount of accolades ..........

..........and I also talk to enthusiasts world-wide -- and I know what most of them say -- and I tend to believe them.

I think you'd perhaps be happier with a Corvette? -- or a CTS-V -- or, yes, a Genesis.....

I learned many years ago that I/we cannot keep 100 percent of the people happy.............

I'm sorry you don't like the 5th gen - and the sad part is that you haven't even driven one yet..........

I DO hope you will -- and I truly hope you'll be pleasantly surprised.........because, you see -- there MAY be some people who tell John and Cheryl and me what we want to hear -- but I am smart enough to know that this community does not hold back -- they tell us EXACTLY what they want and think and desire...........

Please drive one or two of them before you make your final decision -- and before you "attempt" to influence people without even driving one??????

WhiteHawk

04-08-2009, 12:07 AM

/Thread

Fbodfather

04-08-2009, 10:46 AM

AdioSS

04-08-2009, 12:45 PM

bkpliskin

04-08-2009, 05:13 PM

Um, Scott, he posted that back in November... :think:

But your posts are still very valid :D

And I think these posts about not buying any cars made outside the USA are kind of funny because the Camaro hasn't been built in the US since, what 1992? Yes it is built less than 100 miles from the US Border by an American owned company, but it still an import.

Plus, what are you going to do when none of the Domestic companies offer a vehicle that you really want to buy? My parents like the Mercedes Benz S-Class. Before they bought their current S550, they did shop around, but there weren't any cars offered by any domestic company that was comparable. If you want an inexpensive lightweight rear wheel drive sports coupe, right now your only option is the Genesis Coupe.

Incorrect, the Mustang is within roughly 100 lbs, it's rear wheel drive, it's a coupe, and it's in the same price range... and all the PROFIT from the sale of the vehicle comes back to the USA.

Also, I never said the Camaro was built here. But there are parts from the Camaro manufactured and also designed here. The R&D is done here. The profits come back here. None of which can really be said about the Genesis. And if there is ever going to be any hope of salvaging GM, our own people need to at least believe in them. PLUS, GM does a lot of sales overseas and all of the profit from each sale comes right back into the country. If GM fails here, the companies overseas assets will most likely be sold to a foreign company and this country will lose all of those profits as well.

Z28CamaroPower!

04-09-2009, 12:11 AM

This discussion seems pointless anyway, as few -if any- brainwashed ricers would ever be interested in the 5th Gen Camaro. Their Civics have more horsepower-per-liter, are race cars, and don't have "ancient-technology" pushrods. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Z28CamaroPower!

04-09-2009, 12:21 AM

Really?

How did I miss your smiling face at meetings where this would have been discussed?

Thanks for posting, Scott - It's hilarious the way some people think they know what is going on internally at GM. Wait - maybe he was hiding in a closet in the room where you hold meetings. :D

teal98

04-09-2009, 12:39 AM

And I think these posts about not buying any cars made outside the USA are kind of funny because the Camaro hasn't been built in the US since, what 1992? Yes it is built less than 100 miles from the US Border by an American owned company, but it still an import.

Sort of. I think most of the nationalism in car buying is based on a belief that the trade is unfair -- whether it be buying a car from a country that doesn't buy our cars or buying a car from a plant that doesn't employ union workers. Neither case can be made with Canada. For that matter, I think it's a pretty weak case with Germany too.

I've owned Japanese and German cars in the past, but now everything in my garage/driveway is GM. Three oldies and the '02 Camaro. But that's from vehicle preference, not nationalism.

If I were going to buy based on locality, I might get something built at the NUMMI plant in Fremont. :D

Z284ever

04-09-2009, 11:07 AM

well then -- I guess you're gonna love your Genesis, aren't you?

I know --sounds facetious, no?

Look -- I know how "passionate" you feel about the 3rd gen -- and I know you feel that the 4th gen was an 'embarrassment" -- your words, not mine.....

Reading thru your comments over the past two years, it appears that you will never be happy or satisfied with the 5th gen.......

..............and I guess we both have to accept that.

I will not make apologies.......because, you see, I sit back at many many auto shows -- where people do not know me -- and I hear the comments..........and I must tell you -- this car is getting an amazing amount of accolades ..........

..........and I also talk to enthusiasts world-wide -- and I know what most of them say -- and I tend to believe them.

I think you'd perhaps be happier with a Corvette? -- or a CTS-V -- or, yes, a Genesis.....

I learned many years ago that I/we cannot keep 100 percent of the people happy.............

I'm sorry you don't like the 5th gen - and the sad part is that you haven't even driven one yet..........

I DO hope you will -- and I truly hope you'll be pleasantly surprised.........because, you see -- there MAY be some people who tell John and Cheryl and me what we want to hear -- but I am smart enough to know that this community does not hold back -- they tell us EXACTLY what they want and think and desire...........

Please drive one or two of them before you make your final decision -- and before you "attempt" to influence people without even driving one??????

Wow, you're quoting me from last year! Buy a Genesis coupe? Please, don't be ridiculous Scott.

But my 5th gen concerns are both valid and fair. For me, it is larger than I had hoped, heavier than I had hoped, it's interior is much less appealing than hoped and any notion of ever getting my coveted Z/28 are pretty much gone. Of course I'll drive one first chance I get and of course I want it to succeed wildly--- but it just plain doesn't hit my personal bullseye. I can't be any more honest and fair than that.

One more thing to set the record straight....

Why in the world would I want to influence people to NOT buy this car? If this one flops, that's pretty much it for the Camaro brand. So whether this particular car pushes all of my personal buttons or not - I still want people to buy it and buy it large numbers. I want GM management to be impressed enough with it's sales numbers and positive buzz, to put serious consideration of the next gen car on the radar screen. In fact, FYI, two people last week asked me if they should buy the Challenger or Camaro. I recommended the Camaro to them. So, eat your words Scotty. ;)

Z284ever

04-09-2009, 11:11 AM

Thanks for posting, Scott - It's hilarious the way some people think they know what is going on internally at GM. Wait - maybe he was hiding in a closet in the room where you hold meetings. :D

You know what? Don't be a d!ck. You have no idea who I might have had conversations with on this. In fact, I'm sure you'd be shocked.

Schismblade

04-11-2009, 01:15 PM

I share Z284ever's sentiments on the weight and interior. This is why I will not be buying one.

I've seen it in person, sat in it, and was disappointed.

I really do hope this car succeeds though. Who cares what the minority say, imo. Most people like it, so that's all that matters.

teal98

04-12-2009, 04:46 AM

I share Z284ever's sentiments on the weight and interior. This is why I will not be buying one.

It may be heavier than you wanted. But I do think a fair evaluation will show that it's not heavier than other cars of similar configuration, HP, and TQ, once you account for the differences. I.e., take a Mustang and add 100hp and tq and an IRS tough enough to survive a few runs down the dragstrip, and if it doesn't gain 300 pounds, it's close.

Take an M3 and change some of the expensive aluminum to steel and replace the little 4.0 with a high torque turbo 6 or N/A V8, and see what you get (hint: take a look at the weight of the 335d).

Interior style? That's personal preference and all comments are fair.

guionM

04-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Too bad its hideous.

It's not bad looking in person, but it is pretty bland. It looks like a derivitive of the G35 coupe that's been out for years.

Most of the articles I've seen so far puts the V6 ahead of the Camaro in acceleration, so I'm not too surprised about the power/weight thing.

teal98

04-12-2009, 06:47 PM

It's not bad looking in person, but it is pretty bland. It looks like a derivitive of the G35 coupe that's been out for years.

Most of the articles I've seen so far puts the V6 ahead of the Camaro in acceleration, so I'm not too surprised about the power/weight thing.

I like the looks of the Genesis Coupe. Edmunds had a nice writeup on the issues with the V6 and fuel cutoff after hitting redline. Supposedly, Hyundai was working on that, and the Edmunds retest with different firmware was quicker. Who knows what program the production models may have, however. One suspects that maybe Hyundai saved a few pounds with a lightweight diff.

bossco

04-12-2009, 10:33 PM

I.e., take a Mustang and add 100hp and tq and an IRS tough enough to survive a few runs down the dragstrip, and if it doesn't gain 300 pounds, it's close.

It wouldn't, as has been discussed here a few times, a well designed IRS doesn't add a substantial amount of weight (25-50 pounds IIRC - the Terminator IRS is a different story because its a square peg trying to fit in a round hole).

The Mustangs chassis is also a dedicated platform and designed as it sits currently to handle in excess of 600 horsepower (so no extra sheet metal is needed, for safety pundits it also has a 5 star rating in coupe and convertible form) nor does it slavishly follow a showcar (the S-197 show cars were built off of an exsisting S-197 chassis rather than the other way around).

IRS aside, brakes and transmission would add some heft, but not much (I havn't read how much the GT500 brakes add in weight, but I dont think it would be more than 30 or 40 pounds if that much and going from an M5 to M6 is also a negligable amount of weight).

Now for people citing the GT500 as proof that a 400 HP Mustang will be OMFG heavy, its portly for one reason, the 5.4 4v mill and associated S/C plumbing, thats it, there is no real extra bracing in the chassis (IIRC it uses the front k-member struts from the vert - measely pinched tube things)

As for future Mustangs with the coyote 5.0 (which is said to be lighter than the current mod motors - I'm guessing in relation to the all alu 4.6 3v) I dont think there is gonna be a monster weight gain, maybe in a stretch it might weigh the same as a V6 F5 in GT form - but that'd probalby have to include the IRS, M6, and upgraded brakes, otherwise if Ford just goes with a live axle, M5 and sticks with the SOP with the brakes (meaning weight savings take precedence over stoping power) and only puts the coyote engine in, the '11 Mustang may weigh the same as the current car (if not a few pounds lighter based on current 5.0 gossip).

teal98

04-13-2009, 01:33 AM

It wouldn't, as has been discussed here a few times, a well designed IRS doesn't add a substantial amount of weight (25-50 pounds IIRC - the Terminator IRS is a different story because its a square peg trying to fit in a round hole).

I've seen that claimed. I've also seen much higher numbers claimed. I don't believe the 25-50 pounds number, unless, perhaps, you're talking about all aluminum suspension parts and a simple IRS.

The Mustangs chassis is also a dedicated platform and designed as it sits currently to handle in excess of 600 horsepower (so no extra sheet metal is needed, for safety pundits it also has a 5 star rating in coupe and convertible form) nor does it slavishly follow a showcar (the S-197 show cars were built off of an exsisting S-197 chassis rather than the other way around).

IRS aside, brakes and transmission would add some heft, but not much (I havn't read how much the GT500 brakes add in weight, but I dont think it would be more than 30 or 40 pounds if that much and going from an M5 to M6 is also a negligable amount of weight).

Now for people citing the GT500 as proof that a 400 HP Mustang will be OMFG heavy, its portly for one reason, the 5.4 4v mill and associated S/C plumbing, thats it, there is no real extra bracing in the chassis (IIRC it uses the front k-member struts from the vert - measely pinched tube things)

The tested weight of the old GT500 was about 350 pounds more than the tested weight of the 2009 GTs. The mfr's number of the 2010 model GT500 is 400 pounds more than the mfr number of the 2010 GT and 350 more than the tested weight of 2010 GTs (probably heavier due to upgrades). Let's use 350.

Normally the difference between Al and Fe blocks is more like 100 pounds. Add a little more for the 5.4 versus 4.6. Superchargers and plumbing are what, maybe 50 pounds? Whatever the case, the SC and Fe block do not add 350 pounds.

As for future Mustangs with the coyote 5.0 (which is said to be lighter than the current mod motors - I'm guessing in relation to the all alu 4.6 3v) I dont think there is gonna be a monster weight gain, maybe in a stretch it might weigh the same as a V6 F5 in GT form - but that'd probalby have to include the IRS, M6, and upgraded brakes, otherwise if Ford just goes with a live axle, M5 and sticks with the SOP with the brakes (meaning weight savings take precedence over stoping power) and only puts the coyote engine in, the '11 Mustang may weigh the same as the current car (if not a few pounds lighter based on current 5.0 gossip).

We'll see. The new 370Z was lighter until it was put on the scales ;)

And the new 5.0 will still have less torque than the Camaro 6.2.

A pleasant surprise on the Camaro is how the as-tested weights actually came in the same as the preliminary weights. On many cars recently, the car gains 100 pounds or more from preliminary to scales used by magazines.

bossco

04-14-2009, 01:44 AM

I've seen that claimed. I've also seen much higher numbers claimed. I don't believe the 25-50 pounds number, unless, perhaps, you're talking about all aluminum suspension parts and a simple IRS.[quote]
It'll be interesting to see what the F5 IRS to SRA swaps will yield in weight difference?

[quote]The tested weight of the old GT500 was about 350 pounds more than the tested weight of the 2009 GTs. The mfr's number of the 2010 model GT500 is 400 pounds more than the mfr number of the 2010 GT and 350 more than the tested weight of 2010 GTs (probably heavier due to upgrades). Let's use 350.

Normally the difference between Al and Fe blocks is more like 100 pounds. Add a little more for the 5.4 versus 4.6. Superchargers and plumbing are what, maybe 50 pounds? Whatever the case, the SC and Fe block do not add 350 pounds.[/qoute]

The GT500 uses the NVH block which is around 110 pounds heavier (the 3v 4.6 block checks in at 85 pounds) and the 4v heads are around 60 pounds heavier than the 3v heads. Granted its the Shipping weight, but the GT500 mill is nearly 840 pounds (so spot it 70 pounds for a pallet and packing crap and its still 350 pounds heavier than the 3v 4.6) not including plumbing and coolant for the heat exchanger, but I'll go with 300 pounds to give that mosnter another break.

The M6 in the GT500 is 10 pounds heavier than the M5 in the GT (per Tremec's website), brakes I cant see adding that much either. Brakes go from 12.4" to 14" and are around 7-10 pounds heavier per rotor - thats the extra 50 pounds right there (400 pound difference between the GT and GT500 - 300 lbs for engine/SC and 50 pounds for trans and brakes).

Driveshaft may be heavier duty but I dont remeber anything special about it and the diff uses bigger axle bearings compared to the regular GT 8.8 so no weight gain there. Wheels are probalby negligable as well, the GT500 wheels are a 1/2" wider than the 18" GT wheels.

[quote]And the new 5.0 will still have less torque than the Camaro 6.2.

heh, yeah its to bad Ford wont go the same route, a 6+ liter cammer motor would have been REAL nice (hell in 2005 an all aluminum 3v 5.4 would have been REAL nice). but it is what is, Mustang guys will just have to beat on the motor like finding the neighbors dog in the hen house. If Ford actually hits the 400/385 target I suspect there will be a litany of posts talking about how the engine feels soft for that sort of power.

In any event I would dearly love to see a '11 GT and '11 SS with nearly the same power to weight ratio duke it out on a nice track like VIR and at some place like Bud's Creek to see how things would really shake out.

teal98

04-14-2009, 02:50 AM

Hmm. Your quotes were a little messed up. :)

I've seen that claimed. I've also seen much higher numbers claimed. I don't believe the 25-50 pounds number, unless, perhaps, you're talking about all aluminum suspension parts and a simple IRS.
It'll be interesting to see what the F5 IRS to SRA swaps will yield in weight difference?

Yes.
One more thing, how can the "square peg in round hole" add 50-75 pounds? I would expect about the same weight, but it just wouldn't work that well.
I suppose the round peg will fit in a square hole better? :D

The GT500 uses the NVH block which is around 110 pounds heavier (the 3v 4.6 block checks in at 85 pounds) and the 4v heads are around 60 pounds heavier than the 3v heads. Granted its the Shipping weight, but the GT500 mill is nearly 840 pounds (so spot it 70 pounds for a pallet and packing crap and its still 350 pounds heavier than the 3v 4.6) not including plumbing and coolant for the heat exchanger, but I'll go with 300 pounds to give that mosnter another break.

Well it's heavier than I thought! Maybe it'd be better off with a lightweight 460 :D (again)

Is that 60 pounds for the pair of heads? So heads and block add up to 170 pounds difference?

heh, yeah its to bad Ford wont go the same route, a 6+ liter cammer motor would have been REAL nice (hell in 2005 an all aluminum 3v 5.4 would have been REAL nice). but it is what is, Mustang guys will just have to beat on the motor like finding the neighbors dog in the hen house. If Ford actually hits the 400/385 target I suspect there will be a litany of posts talking about how the engine feels soft for that sort of power.

They've got to find something to complain about. If the engine comes close to the rumors, it'll make the Mustang a formidable competitor.

In any event I would dearly love to see a '11 GT and '11 SS with nearly the same power to weight ratio duke it out on a nice track like VIR and at some place like Bud's Creek to see how things would really shake out.

On a smooth track, the Mustang will probably win. I don't know Bud's Creek, but I take it that place is not smooth?