What is it with PPL complaining about pricing?!?

I was going to call this into the podcast, but I just listened to it and I'm a little inhebirated to call at the time..

There are a couple people I've talk to that say that $30k is too much, and they were saying "Well, GM was saying it was going to be comparable to the Stang GT's or other Muscle cars of the same release year.. WTF!?! :no:

Think of this:

YEARS of R&D
Compared it to the 4th Gen F-Bod Pricing (5th Gen is cheaper or the same)
Features and creature comforts
Overall design


If you want a $25k SS Camaro, you'd be getting a crappy car.. You mind as well buy a Kia w/a V8 for those expectations.. From what I've seen and compared, this car is basically a newer version of the 4thgens (duh).. The weight especially.. A lot of this new 4th gen is a LOT like the 4th gens.

Come-on now! What more do you want!?!? :mad:

The problem that I worry about is that it puts itself in a really bad pricing tier, more expensive than the Mustang, a little cheaper than the corvette. You are going to split a large number of people either wanting the "same" performance cheaper or better performance for a little more.

The problem that I worry about is that it puts itself in a really bad pricing tier, more expensive than the Mustang, a little cheaper than the corvette. You are going to split a large number of people either wanting the "same" performance cheaper or better performance for a little more.

The complaints from most seem to be that the new Camaro is $1,000-$2,000 too expensive, and yet the 2SS is about 35k. Do you really expect those concerned about 1-2k in price to jump up and spend 10k or more than the 2SS for a Vette?? I certainly don't.
Clyde

What is it with PPL complaining about pricing?!?

Because time and time again GM gave us false hopes that the car would be "mustang" priced. A 26K GT is a lot easier to pay for than a 31K SS. :yes:

And yes, I know all the advantages Camaro has. Once again GM promised, and did not deliver (on price.) :cry:

The reason that people are upset is because some thought it would be a little bit lower in price. Although $1000-$1500 price difference isn't a killer for most of us, there are still a lot that it's a deal breaker for. Either because it pushes it out of their price range, or they feel more comfortable buying a new '08 corvette.

What surprises me the most is that people are complaining about people complaining about price. This car evokes a lot of emotion and for those that it has been priced out of their range, they are understandably upset.

In 02 I was able to get a 3340 pound V8 and 6 speed manual Z28 out the door for $19k. Fast forward 8 years and I can get similar performance and 500lb's more weight for $13k more. No thanks, the new Cobalt SS does almost everything I want with 800lb's less weight and almost $10k less. Put the Cobalt up against the Camaro on a race track and the difference is marginal. Didn't the Camaro beat the Cobalt around Nurinburg by 1 second or something? That's not worth an extra $10k to me. The pricing did it for me, I was holding out hope the 1SS would come in around $28k and maybe I would buy. The new Stage kit for the cobalt is suppose to be around 315hp and combined with 30mpg ratings that's looking pretty good right now.

A convertible 2SS fully loaded is going to run probably around $40-43K. HOLY S**T!!
Even if an average person could technically buy this car, They will be strapped. They will be living hand to mouth if they finance this car. No average person should be spending that amount of money on a car. This is how we got into the credit mess that we're in right now.

I would think the target income demographic that GM should have shot for with this car should have been about $50-75K per year. What can those people comfortably afford?
But instead, they targeted the people that make like $125K and up.

This is while people are upset. This is supposed to be an average Joe kind of car, but it's not priced that way. GM has just probably told tesns of thousands of people that they don't need their business.

I'm a little upset becuase the higher price will put the Camaro out of my comfort zone and into the "stretching the budget" zone. It will be even worse if the fiance' decides that she really wants a convertible. I'll still buy one, but instead of fall '09, I'll have to be buying in spring '10 or later. That means that I will have to daily drive my 2000 Z/28 for that much longer, and I may just have to put some money into the interior to make it more liveable (I need new seats and the cheap plastic interior shook itself apart when I had duals dumped :(), which pushes my purchase date even farther back. I didn't expect a much lower price, but I thought (hoped) a 1SS would base at 29K and that I could get an SS/RS convertible for about 37k. Actually, these prices kind of put a nail in the coffin for a convertible.

I wonder how long until we see huge rebates on these cars, then maybe people can afford to jump into one. The market will eventually set the price correctly on these things, I just think they are a few thousand too much right now for most people. There will probably be huge dealer markups in the beginning but about 12 months out they'll be begging you to buy one.

I was at the dealer yesterday to put down my order for the Camaro , and I ended up with a corvett for 38K brand new.

What surprises me the most is that people are complaining about people complaining about price.

Party because those complaining are not using facts to fuel the complaints.

In 02 I was able to get a 3340 pound V8 and 6 speed manual Z28 out the door for $19k.

19k? Try $22,830
http://www.phantomss.com/camaro/windowsticker/index.html
Getting a good deal at a dealership is not MSRP. That's between the buyer and the dealer, not the buyer and Chevrolet.

Fast forward 8 years and I can get similar performance and 500lb's more weight for $13k more.

Similar? Did someone do testing? So far, the only reviews I have seen is for the V6 in magazines, and the reviews are glowing.

No thanks, the new Cobalt SS does almost everything I want with 800lb's less weight and almost $10k less. Put the Cobalt up against the Camaro on a race track and the difference is marginal.

It is? Where's the data? Weight, that has been covered so many times. To make it lighter, it would have been more expensive, which is the second half of your issue. Then again, if you want a Cobalt, why not get one?

Didn't the Camaro beat the Cobalt around Nurinburg by 1 second or something?

That has been debunked several times. If the time is even true, the Camaro was not even close to complete, and did it when it was snowing.

The V8 Camaro isn't even done yet, so comparing it to a FWD car that is done using speculation isn't exactly a fair comparison.

A convertible 2SS fully loaded is going to run probably around $40-43K. HOLY S**T!!
Even if an average person could technically buy this car

Average people do not buy 422hp convertible sports/mucle/pony cars. It has never been that way. Pricing is speculation, but probably not far off, I suppose. We will have to wait and see...

I feel your pain, guys, but if you are going to gripe, back it up with facts.

ill be waiting until the market is a little flooded with them and I can get one closer to invoice. by then ill have even more, hopefully all, of my debt gone.

Party because those complaining are not using facts to fuel the complaints.



19k? Try $22,830
http://www.phantomss.com/camaro/windowsticker/index.html
Getting a good deal at a dealership is not MSRP. That's between the buyer and the dealer, not the buyer and Chevrolet. What I pay out the door is what matters, I can't get a new Camaro out the door of any dealership for under MSRP for the next year.


Similar? Did someone do testing? So far, the only reviews I have seen is for the V6 in magazines, and the reviews are glowing. We have enough to go on the make a judgement.


It is? Where's the data? Weight, that has been covered so many times. To make it lighter, it would have been more expensive, which is the second half of your issue. Then again, if you want a Cobalt, why not get one?Nothing to argue here you haven't really said anything.


That has been debunked several times. If the time is even true, the Camaro was not even close to complete, and did it when it was snowing. I love excuses, fact is no matter what they do to it the car is heavy and the Cobalt is light, I'm sorry the Cobalt can hang with a big V8 on a road course, don't get mad at me get mad at Chevy.
The V8 Camaro isn't even done yet, so comparing it to a FWD car that is done using speculation isn't exactly a fair comparison. The time the Cobalt ran was spectacular and the Camaro was pretty well set up to the point I doubt they would drop half a minute off it's time no matter what they do.



Average people do not buy 422hp convertible sports/mucle/pony cars. It has never been that way. Pricing is speculation, but probably not far off, I suppose. We will have to wait and see...

I feel your pain, guys, but if you are going to gripe, back it up with facts.People do back up stuff but you constantly get pissy if they don't agree with you. We all love Camaro's but we don't all agree this is the second coming like a few on here do. i don't like people constantly bitchingon here either but I haven't see anyone do that in this thread, it's just been honest disagreement over weight and pricing.

I am not getting "pissy" at all, I am just saying if you are going to make a comparison, make it a factual one.

Mustang is alot cheaper. Camaro may be better, but a large portion of the buyers don't even know what IRS is and would rather have 4k extra in the bank.

Also, wasn't the 4th gen alot better, and more expsensive than the mustangs of it's day? How did those sales figures work out. :think:

I think it's a little unfair to compare prices from 2002. At that point all the tooling and engineering was long paid off and GM was just trying to keep the assembly line running for as long as possible. They weren't really actively marketing the F-Bodies.

Because time and time again GM gave us false hopes that the car would be "mustang" priced. A 26K GT is a lot easier to pay for than a 31K SS. :yes:
:

If 90 bucks a month makes it a lot easier to buy the Stang over the SS, then
it's probably not a good time to buy a car.

Face it guys... The fact is that the many of us bought the car when it was "cheaper" and the economy was up for it. Right now, we know it WILL be extremely hard to finance one.

Here in PR w/ taxes the car will weigh in at $42k for a 2SS. Add to that.. INSURANCE and an easy 7.5% apr and you have a payment offf..... rolling drums.....~$800 a month.... FOR 6 YEARS!

I mean.. you are going to pay... $800/MONTH on a car right now????

Either that.. or you have to have around $10k to lower it at a decent payment and/or wait for a 0% incentive.

Don't get me wrong... its not too high a price for what it is... problem is... WE are unable to afford it right now.

I am not getting "pissy" at all, I am just saying if you are going to make a comparison, make it a factual one.i didn't pull anything out of thin air, I used real times that have been on the net for a while. I negotiated my car and used my Camaro legends Tour $1k rebate on my car I purchased in 02 and it ran a similar time in the quarter mile to what we are told the new car runs. The new Camaro is going to be MSRP for a while so it is $13k more than what I paid and my car had leather so add another $2k to the new car for that. The Cobalt weighs 2950lb's, the Camaro SS weighs 3850lb's. Cobalt ran a lap 1 second slower than the V8 Camaro on the Nurinburg ring. If the Camro ran a really great time on it don't you think they would have come out with it by now? I haven't embelished anything and the new Stage kit for the Cobalt will give it 55hp more with a factory warranty and 30mpg. Where did I lie? Where did I embelish?

We need to compare MSRP to MSRP. I just ordered a 1SS. I wanted the 2SS but I wanted to keep the payments down. I was dissappointed with the base SS price. But you gotta take into consideration right now we're having to pay MSRP. MSRP is never a good deal. I mean honestly, I wouldnt be happy with prices for the Cobalt or vette if I were paying MSRP. So its my decision, Pay MSRP and get it ASAP, or wait and pay invoice or whatever. I chose to get it quicker. $26K for a mustang GT??? what year? cause that is not a new one's MSRP. I do think that some of the 2SS people may go with a used c6 with 15k miles or so. I thought about it. I also see where it may be smart for GM, I mean the price is a little higher than I wanted to pay, but its not so high that Im not gonna get it....... I see both sides on this one. And this is not a directed at any one person, cause whatever you point is, I can see where you're coming from.... And the Nurburgring Lap times are on Wikipedia if ya'll wanna check them out. the maro did 8:20(not listed on the times). Cobalt 8:22. Not sure if the Camaro time is a myth, just what i read some where.

i didn't pull anything out of thin air, I used real times that have been on the net for a while.

No accusations were implied, But some data that is out there is not known to possibly not be accurate or complete.

I negotiated my car and used my Camaro legends Tour $1k rebate on my car I purchased in 02

I got a Legends Tour rebate on mine as well, now that you mention it. I hear ya, but if my Dad owns a dealership (which he doesn't, I am sorry to say), and I got my 2002 for $1.00, I cannot use that as a fair comparison to what the sticker is on the 2010. People need to compare sticker to sticker, not deal for sticker.

and it ran a similar time in the quarter mile to what we are told the new car runs.

That might be true while not yet confirmed as no 2010 Camaro has been down a drag strip to anyone's knowledge (I think the numbers out there now are only estimates), but MSRP doesn't reflect 1/4 mile times alone. It has to account for all the other things that go along with it that the 2002 Camaro nor the 2010 Cobalt doesn't have or is offered. I know that doesn't interest some, but the whole "appealing to the widest audience" thing comes into play.

The Cobalt weighs 2950lb's, the Camaro SS weighs 3850lb's. Cobalt ran a lap 1 second slower than the V8 Camaro on the Nurinburg ring.

Seriously, has that number been confirmed? I am really asking, I have seen conflicting reports on the accuracy of it in itself, despite the conditions when the test was performed. Just wondering if anyone has gotten any true confirmation.

If the Camro ran a really great time on it don't you think they would have come out with it by now?

No, and here's why...the car isn't done! They are still tweaking it as we speak. Let's wait until it is done and production ready. Put it and the new Cobalt SS on the same track on the same day. I expect the 1 second gap to grow. It might not be as wide of a gap as some might hope for, but I think it will grow. I am not stating facts that it will, I am saying I think it will. I hope we will see soon!

I haven't embelished anything and the new Stage kit for the Cobalt will give it 55hp more with a factory warranty and 30mpg. Where did I lie? Where did I embelish?

I never said that you lied one bit. I am just saying that someone can't fairy go off numbers that do not yet exist, or are incomplete, or are just hearsay. I believe you about the Cobalt thing and I agree, it is a potent car. I entertained the idea of getting one for a daily driver. Any idea on how much that Stage kit is expected to be?

I guess I'm mainly surprised that the pricing wasn't more in line with the 2009 Mustang line-up. Do I still think the 2010 Camaro is a bargain? Absofreakinlutley. I have no problem paying MSRP for what could be the best Camaro ever.

Still I am surprised.

No accusations were implied, But some data that is out there is not known to possibly not be accurate or complete.



I got a Legends Tour rebate on mine as well, now that you mention it. I hear ya, but if my Dad owns a dealership (which he doesn't, I am sorry to say), and I got my 2002 for $1.00, I cannot use that as a fair comparison to what the sticker is on the 2010. People need to compare sticker to sticker, not deal for sticker.



That might be true while not yet confirmed as no 2010 Camaro has been down a drag strip to anyone's knowledge (I think the numbers out there now are only estimates), but MSRP doesn't reflect 1/4 mile times alone. It has to account for all the other things that go along with it that the 2002 Camaro nor the 2010 Cobalt doesn't have or is offered. I know that doesn't interest some, but the whole "appealing to the widest audience" thing comes into play.



Seriously, has that number been confirmed? I am really asking, I have seen conflicting reports on the accuracy of it in itself, despite the conditions when the test was performed. Just wondering if anyone has gotten any true confirmation.



No, and here's why...the car isn't done! They are still tweaking it as we speak. Let's wait until it is done and production ready. Put it and the new Cobalt SS on the same track on the same day. I expect the 1 second gap to grow. It might not be as wide of a gap as some might hope for, but I think it will grow. I am not stating facts that it will, I am saying I think it will. I hope we will see soon!



I never said that you lied one bit. I am just saying that someone can't fairy go off numbers that do not yet exist, or are incomplete, or are just hearsay. I believe you about the Cobalt thing and I agree, it is a potent car. I entertained the idea of getting one for a daily driver. Any idea on how much that Stage kit is expected to be?
No ideas on pricing but it's suppose to only be sensors and the 315hp has been verified by GM sources, the torque number hasn't been released yet. I'm going to be ordering the sedan in the next few weeks if I can get it with the Reconfigurable Performance Display, although I hear you can only get that on the coupe. Most stealth car on the road!

I am not getting "pissy" at all, I am just saying if you are going to make a comparison, make it a factual one.

whoa whoa whoa...whoa



save it for the podcast :D

I don't really think GM has overpriced the car and I believe it's a reasonable deal. I do have to say that Monday was a kick in the crotch though. I was hoping for v8 vert at $35 or less. I know, I know it was probably unreasonable. However, if this forces me into v6 territory, I'm going to seriously be cross-shopping a used stang/vette for awhile. Really, it's not a question if IF for Camaro, it's when (for me). I may have to wait until I can get one used at those prices ... which sux for GM.

Wow, just wow. I understand if some of us are complaining about the price, and that is one thing BUT comparing the Camaro's performance to cars like the Cobalt SS is just ridiculous. Some of you guys need to understand the difference between "overpriced" and "expensive" the new Camaro is far from "overpriced" you definitely get what you pay for AND more. Some of us are in different financial situations, and that's why we complain about prices. I, myself am disappointed because if i go with a loaded 2SS i have no issues dropping another 10k and getting a new 2009 Corvette or a decently loaded 2008 This of course does not apply to everyone else but i can see why it's a disappointment to some members that were very excited about the release of a new Camaro, only to find out they can no longer afford one or they can purchase a somewhat similar for a few thousands cheaper. I just hope there will be some good rebates in the next couple of years that will attract more buyers or make the car more affordable to the general public.

For those that are angry with GM for "pricing the car too high", you shouldn't be mad at GM but rather angry with yourself for thinking that you were going to get a fully loaded V8 Camaro for approx. $30k. How could anybody reasonably think that when it was rumored that the V8 was going to start around $30k for almost a year now? That and the purposely overlooked fact that the '02 Camaro went for $32k 8 model years ago. The last 4th gen doesn't even compare in terms of quality compared to the new one. That coupled with inflation puts the Camaro right were it should be.

For those that thought they could swing $32k but can't afford $35k really needs to take another look at their priorities. That's less than $100 difference per month. If you were (are) stretching it that tight then you aren't really in the market for this type of car anyway.

Sure you could go out and buy this theoretical $26k Mustang GT (which it always amuses me when someone wants to compare the price of a base model no options GT to a loaded 1ss or 2ss car) but you are definately getting what you paid for. You can't even really compare "similarly equipped" cars because they don't exist. The current Mustang GT pales in comparison to the new Camaro in terms of quality and amenities. It should though, its working off of a 5 model year old platform. Next year will be marginally better but you have to wait a couple of more years to see what they have planned next. Then if you think that you are going to get one for the same price as the current Mustang then you're forcing yourself down the same misguided path that you took with the Camaro.

Lastly, I find it absurd to compare the Cobalt SS to the Camaro. If you're going to look at these cars from a purely road racing angle and if these performance numbers are true (which coming from the internet, I'm not holding my breath) then I have to ask why you are looking at these two cars in the first place? A brand new car would be the last thing I would purchase to go tear up on a road course. Now, if this was going to be a daily driver with the occasional track meet and you could live with the style and comfort of an econobox (not to take anything away from the Cobalt but it is what it is priced for) then maybe a 1LS is more up your alley. This still gives you more amenities than the Cobalt while closing the cost gap substantially. I mean if you're okay with giving up the second that the SS has over the Cobalt then it shouldn't be a dealbreaker to give up a second to the FWD car while offering more daily driver content.

To complain about the Camaro's pricing and then give inaccurate examples or comparisons isn't helping your cause any. Fact is, this car is priced right for what this car has to offer. If you don't want to pay that much then you want a lesser car, not the Camaro.

the horse is already dead...

For those that are angry with GM for "pricing the car too high", you shouldn't be mad at GM but rather angry with yourself for thinking that you were going to get a fully loaded V8 Camaro for approx. $30k. How could anybody reasonably think that when it was rumored that the V8 was going to start around $30k for almost a year now? That and the purposely overlooked fact that the '02 Camaro went for $32k 8 model years ago. The last 4th gen doesn't even compare in terms of quality compared to the new one. That coupled with inflation puts the Camaro right were it should be.

For those that thought they could swing $32k but can't afford $35k really needs to take another look at their priorities. That's less than $100 difference per month. If you were (are) stretching it that tight then you aren't really in the market for this type of car anyway.

+1

In addition, I find it a little absurd to say "well if the Camaro comes in at $38K, I might as well drop another 10 grand plusand get a Corvette." First, if you price it as $38K, that means you packed near every single option in to the car. Second, you won't get all of those options on a base Corvette. Third, don't talk as if $10K is $200. That is a nice chunk of change. As it has been said several times before, it was alluded to many times that the base V8 would start around $30K.

Which is why I am more than happy to pay just over $35K for very nicely equipped 2SS.

Seriously why is anyone dissatisfied with the cost of this car. Comparing it to the Mustang is even a bit of a stretch unless you do what Jason was saying and compare apples to oranges. The current GT is about 300 HP give or take and costs about 28K as compared to a V6 Camaro which starts at 22K...I don't see the problem. You buy a cheaper V6 that makes as much power, has better components everywhere, and gets better fuel econ.
Then there is the SS which optioned out the way most like it at most costs 35-37K...yeah next stop for the Mustang...oh yeah that would be the Shelby coming in at around 46K for base model GT-500.


I am sorry but I just don't see why folks are upset about this car and the price. 430 HP in a 3800lb car. If you will think back to 2003 the Cobra had a rated 380 hp and weighed almost the same and you would think it had hung the moon with how people talked about it. In 2003 to buy a Cobra you were looking at about 36K and that was for a car that had a 25 year old chassis, a terrible IRS, and over all horrid build quality.

In my opinion, and I have alot of them, this car is perfect where it is. It is priced right, and designed to please and manages to do in for under 40K and that is phenomenal.

I would like to take a moment and say I am sorry for complaining about the price of a 1SS Camaro. I just priced out a 09 GT Stang Convertible with the options I wanted and it came to 33,270. Now if I can get the Camaro 1SS for 35K I will gladly pay the little extra to have it. Plus with all the bonus stuff that you cannot get on the Stang. Heck a cloth top was $270 but is standard on the Camaro. After really looking at the 2 closely there is really only a $1500 difference between the 2 cars. The real thing everyone has to look at is all the additional features that we get for that $1500. Irs, 100 more HP, etc.

Call me naive, but I don't think this is where most of us thought we'd be:

2010 Camaro SS - 2009 Mustang GT = Difference
$30,995 - $27,570 = $3,425

It is not a matter of IF I will buy a new camaro. It is a matter of WHEN I will purchase it. For all the wonderful people worrying about whether others should be purchasing the car.... enough with the pious chatter. I am sick and tired of the HP comparisons as a justification of price... GM put the LS3/L99 in it because its a heck of a lot CHEAPER than developing a new engine and provides good mpg! We know that the primary drivers for the (surprisingly) higher msrp... This platform no longer has any anticipated siblings, and GM has a hit and needs to make $$, now. That doesn't mean we have to like it! I guess at 26 I am still a bit naive, because I trusted the GM folks that said not to worry b/c it would be in line with the competition.

My utmost concern is not whether I will purchase a new Camaro. It is whether this car may suffer from the same affliction as the last generation... a price point too far above its most direct competition (this decided by consumers as a whole, not you or I).

The first comparison people will do is the one listed at the top of my post, so lets stop sweeping something under the rug that is a FACT.

There is no such thing as a 2009 Camaro.

There is no such thing as a 2009 Camaro.

Excellent point! I apologize for the oversight (& will correct), but the point remains the same.

Right, but some people's point is that you can't compare a 2010 Camaro to a 2009 Mustang. At the very least it should be a 2010 Camaro to a 2010 Mustang. This, however, is not my argument. I'm just pointing out what others have been saying.

I think its a lot more car for the money than the mustang. However....the price on the mustang with either drop, or ford will have to offer more incentives on them now that they have legimitate competetion from the camaro. If the price spread gets big enough the mustang might be a better deal for some people until the camaro's start being available at invoice and employee/supplier discount prices like the mustang is. And if this economy keeps going the way it looks from the stock market today the days of invoice price and discounts for the camaro might not be that far off. Things in the financial world seem to be unraveling quickly.

The only FACT that matters is that many people were hoping to buy a new Camaro and now GM priced it out of their range. It doesn't matter if it's only marginally more expensive than a 4th gen, or that it technologically superior to the Mustang, or whatever.
When these Camaro hopefuls look at the pricing of the car and their bank account, it just doesn't compute. And that's why these people are upset.
They feel GM should have given more thought about what demographic REALLY wanted the car. They didn't think about the people making $50-75K when pricing the Camaro. And that's why they're upset.

A lot of people said that they were promise it would be comparative to the Mustang. Who said that?

Really this car isn't a Camaro in a traditional sense. They could of call this car another name and wouldn't be that big of a deal. However, I felt they wanted to use the name "Camaro" because of the prestige it holds and it is a household name. It really doesn't have anything in common with the previous generations except for some few interior parts, other than that this car doesn't fellow any rules of the 4th gen.

A convertible 2SS fully loaded is going to run probably around $40-43K. HOLY S**T!!
Even if an average person could technically buy this car, They will be strapped. They will be living hand to mouth if they finance this car. No average person should be spending that amount of money on a car. This is how we got into the credit mess that we're in right now.

I would think the target income demographic that GM should have shot for with this car should have been about $50-75K per year. What can those people comfortably afford?
But instead, they targeted the people that make like $125K and up.

This is while people are upset. This is supposed to be an average Joe kind of car, but it's not priced that way. GM has just probably told tesns of thousands of people that they don't need their business.

And just how much do you think people have been spending for SUVs over the last several years? $35k-$45k, and some of those people will now be buying Camaros. I think many on the various forums need to get realistic about their price expectations, I'd love to see a 2SS at $25,995, but I'm intellegent enough to know that it is not likely to happen in my lifetime. The first two Camaros I ever bought were priced way out of my range at that point in life, so I did what I had to in order to purchase them. You either firure out how to buy the "out of my budget" item or you make do with something that is within your budget, it's really not complicated. The new Camaro IMHO is a real bargain, a lot of features and bang for the buck!
Clyde

Because time and time again GM gave us false hopes that the car would be "mustang" priced. A 26K GT is a lot easier to pay for than a 31K SS. :yes:

And yes, I know all the advantages Camaro has. Once again GM promised, and did not deliver (on price.) :cry:


go drive an LS Camaro with the V6 -- and then put it up against the Mustang GT. (by the way -- the LS lists at $22995-- and then compare what you get STANDARD on the Camaro ----




..........................and I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised.



Yes - we could have done the car 'cheaper' -- but we listened to our customers and made the changes they asked for -- that comes at a price.......

Please -- I understand that you may have been surprised at the pricing -- but please wait until you drive the new Camaro before rendering a final judgement............

Important to understand that WE LISTENED to our enthusiasts as we developed this car...........

remember the carrying on about brakes? Well, we did something about it...but Brembo wants paid! (sorry for the sarcasm...long day........)

For those of you upset --

please -- go get the documents we provided to Chris and Jason -- look at the standard equipment on each of the Camaro models -- and then do an apples to apples comparison with a Mustang -- and a Challenger -- and YES -- a Cobalt SS ......

Next: go do a price comparison to a 2002 V6, a 2002 Z28-- and a 2002 SS-- and I think you're going to be surprised............

Yes - we could have made the car cheaper and dropped the price -- but what damage do you do to the brand? I'm not willing to do that - and I don't think most people are.

Yes -- a lot of dealers will be asking MSRP -- but I happen to know of several dealers who are not charging MSRP.........and frankly, after a few months, I think dealers may be inclined to negotiate.............that's simply the law of "supply and demand"

Yes -- a lot of dealers will be asking MSRP -- but I happen to know of several dealers who are not charging MSRP.........and frankly, after a few months, I think dealers may be inclined to negotiate.............that's simply the law of "supply and demand"

Do you know of any that will sell at GMS?

The pricing is more than i would like, but is still a pretty good value considering what you get.The v8 camaro has moved up in class, and by doing so it has also gone up in price. It's still a relative bargain, but a different kind now (no longer that cheap bare bones performance car).

The days of the cheap v8's are over :(. Now a days, a base v8 challenger will cost you 30k, a base v8 camaro 31k, and who knows what the 2010/2011 mustang GT will cost but i'd guess it too will hover around the 30k mark in base form. So times are changing. I think v8's will only get more expensive from here on.

I don't know. @ 26, i'm at a point now where if i'm going to spend 32-36k on a car, my primary concern/need won't be performance but rather luxury. And if i'm going to be spending in the neighborhood of 35k, a CTS/G35/G37/IS/3series might be a better fit for me.

So i guess i'll give the more affordable 3.6L camaro a look, and if i like it that'll be my next car. @ 22k, i think it's a VERY good bargain and by far the most appealing car in its price range. I can afford the 1SS, but its pricing puts it within reach of other cars i'd rather own so buying one new isn't happening. So my only choice on an SS would be to wait and pick up a used example when prices creep under 25k.

And just how much do you think people have been spending for SUVs over the last several years? $35k-$45k, and some of those people will now be buying Camaros. I think many on the various forums need to get realistic about their price expectations, I'd love to see a 2SS at $25,995, but I'm intellegent enough to know that it is not likely to happen in my lifetime. The first two Camaros I ever bought were priced way out of my range at that point in life, so I did what I had to in order to purchase them. You either firure out how to buy the "out of my budget" item or you make do with something that is within your budget, it's really not complicated. The new Camaro IMHO is a real bargain, a lot of features and bang for the buck!
Clyde

First, most of the people who bought those $35-45K SUVs & pick-ups had no business buying them. They are so upside down in those things that they'll never dig out. That is one reason we're in such a credit mess right now. And I think a lot of people have learned their lesson with easy credit and will be more careful when getting loans. They won't want to put themselves in a bad situation. So no, those kind of people won't be buying a new Camaro.

Second, I have not seen anyone say that a fully loaded 2SS should be $25-26K. I have seen people say $30-35K for a fully loaded 2SS coupe. Which I too think is a reasonable price.

Third, a lot of people can't find a way to purchase an "out of my budget" item. They should not try to do that nor should they be persuaded to do that. Again, this is what led us to this credit mess.

Last, your last point says it all. Buy something that fits within their budget. And that's what people will do. And it looks like that's the Mustang. Sure it's not nearly as good a car as the Camaro. But in the end, the owner has to pay for it. If he simply cannot afford a Camaro, it won't matter how much better it is, or what whiz-bang technology is in it, or how well it drives. If he can't afford it, he can't afford it. Period. That leaves the less expensive Mustang as a truly viable option. Sorry.

And you're right, it's not complicated. Never said it was.

That's a lame excuse. You can't afford a $35k V8 Camaro but you can afford a $32k Mustang GT? Are you overlooking the V6 Camaro that will perform equal if not better than said GT while offering more content and still COST LESS? How much did you actually expect to pay for the new Camaro? And with this magical price did you expect to get the same quality of car that it offered now?

Don't be mad that the car is "too expensive" for you, be mad that you thought that you were going to get a high quality car for econobox prices.

My foots getting sore and the horse is starting to smell. I'm out.

That's a lame excuse. You can't afford a $35k V8 Camaro but you can afford a $32k Mustang GT? Are you overlooking the V6 Camaro that will perform equal if not better than said GT while offering more content and still COST LESS? How much did you actually expect to pay for the new Camaro? And with this magical price did you expect to get the same quality of car that it offered now?

Don't be mad that the car is "too expensive" for you, be mad that you thought that you were going to get a high quality car for econobox prices.

My foots getting sore and the horse is starting to smell. I'm out.How do you get the GT being slower than a V6 Camaro? A GT does 0-60 in about 5 flat, weighs 200lb's less and makes about the same hp and about 50 ft lb's more torque. Keep dreaming about a V6 beating a GT stock. And i don't think people are mad that the car is too expensive or we thought we'd get it at econocar prices, a lot of us thought it was going to be competitively priced with a GT which is what we have been told for years now. $3-$4k more isn't competitive. and just because people can afford something doesn't mean they want to throw away money for something they don't think is worth the asking price.

My foots getting sore and the horse is starting to smell. I'm out.

Oh, I can help you with that! Your foot is sore because you are kicking the watering trough.... when the horse ran away; you were left standing in the dung.


;)

On a serious note, it does no good to exaggerate others’ pricing expectations. No individual on this site expected a 1 to 1 price match for a Mustang. IF the MSRP for the 2010 Mustang is within $1000 - $2000 of the 2010 Camaro, then it seems that all the squabbling about price is utterly unfounded and I will profusely apologize for exacerbation of the issue. I am extremely grateful for Scott’s postings in this thread and I completely agree with his points as he stresses that the Camaro is superior to the Mustang in every way including standard features. However, I’ve got to say… people will not be shopping the V6 Camaro to the V8 Mustang except when it comes to MSRP. Also, I highly doubt that Ford is looking to give up its biggest -and only- competitive advantage of pricing with the new model 2010.


I love the car and it is beautiful job well done by the team that transformed concept into a production reality. I will absolutely be purchasing a new one. I’m just trying to play Paul Revere here, “The liberals are coming, the liber”- Oops!… I mean, well, you get the point. :) I know that there were a ton of other things than just price that killed the recent GTO. It wasn’t content or value that abducted the last F-body; it was considered the best bang for the buck through its last day of production.

I am working to keep my posts on a positive note, and I appreciate the varied perspectives; however, my conscience will not allow me to be silent on this issue.

.....a lot of us thought it was going to be competitively priced with a GT which is what we have been told for years now. $3-$4k more isn't competitive.
And just because people can afford something doesn't mean they want to throw away money for something they don't think is worth the asking price.


The two points in this post are spot on.


I'd like to add one scenario to this:
There's a guy that's looking at V-8 sports cars. He can afford about $550 per month. One is $38K and the other is $32K. He's really not brand loyal nor is he very car savvy. He just knows he wants a V-8 coupe with a nice sound, some get-up-and-go, and some style.
What's he gonna do? Where's he gonna go?

That's all I'm saying.

The two points in this post are spot on.


I'd like to add one scenario to this:
There's a guy that's looking at V-8 sports cars. He can afford about $550 per month. One is $38K and the other is $32K. He's really not brand loyal nor is he very car savvy. He just knows he wants a V-8 coupe with a nice sound, some get-up-and-go, and some style.
What's he gonna do? Where's he gonna go?

That's all I'm saying.Add to that the Mustang GT has %0 financing for 60 months right now. 5% with great credit or 0% with great credit. I think a lot of people will be taking the 0% option with Ford. You can negotiate a nicely optioned Mustang Gt down to around $26k easily. Probably less than that.

Add to that the Mustang GT has %0 financing for 60 months right now. 5% with great credit or 0% with great credit. I think a lot of people will be taking the 0% option with Ford. You can negotiate a nicely optioned Mustang Gt down to around $26k easily. Probably less than that.


This is exactly what I'm talking about.
I know the Mustang is a far inferior car to the new Camaro, but when you only have X number of dollars to deal with, the pocketbook wins. It doesn't matter how much better the Camaro is.

I'd love to own a Mercedes SL600, but I can't afford it, so I would have to settle for something in my price range. Simple as that.

Add to that the Mustang GT has %0 financing for 60 months right now. 5% with great credit or 0% with great credit. I think a lot of people will be taking the 0% option with Ford. You can negotiate a nicely optioned Mustang Gt down to around $26k easily. Probably less than that.

And I say if they are happy with the Mustang GT, then they should go for it. I think many on this board are confusing reasonably priced (looking at how a car is equipped) with econo pricing. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you just are not going to find a car equipped like the 2SS Camaro (and no comparing to some little POS econo box) from any manufacturer that is priced very much lower than the Camaro. And if you are really convinced that the Camaro is overpriced, then I would suggest that you look at something else to purchase, just make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
Clyde

First, most of the people who bought those $35-45K SUVs & pick-ups had no business buying them. They are so upside down in those things that they'll never dig out. That is one reason we're in such a credit mess right now. And I think a lot of people have learned their lesson with easy credit and will be more careful when getting loans. They won't want to put themselves in a bad situation. So no, those kind of people won't be buying a new Camaro.

Second, I have not seen anyone say that a fully loaded 2SS should be $25-26K. I have seen people say $30-35K for a fully loaded 2SS coupe. Which I too think is a reasonable price.

Third, a lot of people can't find a way to purchase an "out of my budget" item. They should not try to do that nor should they be persuaded to do that. Again, this is what led us to this credit mess.

Last, your last point says it all. Buy something that fits within their budget. And that's what people will do. And it looks like that's the Mustang. Sure it's not nearly as good a car as the Camaro. But in the end, the owner has to pay for it. If he simply cannot afford a Camaro, it won't matter how much better it is, or what whiz-bang technology is in it, or how well it drives. If he can't afford it, he can't afford it. Period. That leaves the less expensive Mustang as a truly viable option. Sorry.

And you're right, it's not complicated. Never said it was.

Unfortunately you seem to make a lot of assumptions about who has been buying what and what their financial status was/is. Most of the people that bought SUVs were not financially strapped nor were they buying more than they could afford. Look at any product category from houses to automobiles to computers to big screen TVs to fishing boats, etc., there are a high percentage of people that make the right decisions and buy what is appropriate for their income level. The there are others that are foolish and make bad decisions and most of their purchases are way over what their budget should be. It's not the pricing that is the problem, it is people's buying habits when they don't know how to stay within their budget. So yes, there are a lot of 16-25 year olds (or older) that probably can't realistically afford a 2SS, that's why manufacturers make cars in all kinds of price ranges. Price out a Mustang equipped like the new Camaro (item for item, feature for feature, standard or option to standard or option, I think you'll find the Camaro is not that far away from the Mustang. It does matter how a vehicle is equipped, just because I can get a Mustang "XYZ" for $26,000 does not mean that it is remotely the "same" vehicle as a new Camaro 2SS for $35,000, that is the reality.
Clyde

The problem that I worry about is that it puts itself in a really bad pricing tier, more expensive than the Mustang, a little cheaper than the corvette. You are going to split a large number of people either wanting the "same" performance cheaper or better performance for a little more.

It may draw from both of those markets...people who want better performance than the Mustang, but don't want to pay for a Corvette.

Well Stated! What do you expected. GM and Ford Stocks have been hit hard in the past 2 weeks. Mentioning of GM purchasing Ford has been noted. High rates borrowing is a factor. Environmentally, V8's are of the interest for many based on current gas pricing.

The Camaro at $30k is a toy for those who ride single. It's not a family vehicle. The G8 sits 5 comfortably compared to the Camaro 4 that is tight and is priced similar.

The big question is where are you at in life for next 8 years and what can you really afford that will be worth your while. I paid $30,000 total for my 2001 Trans Am that is a 2 + 2 that has sit in my garage for past 7 years.

If you are working at Walmart or MacDonalds, I am more than sure an SS is out of your ballpark, thus giving you aformation to complain.

I have a powerhouse G8 and may consider the Camaro 6 just for the looks. I can do without the glitz of an SS badge though obtaining the driving excitement of the 6 ownership.

I honestly believe that no one will get any incentive in the first production year, such as Rebates, 0% APR, etc. Supply and Demand will show the way after the 2nd year. G8s are not moving as Pontiac like, thus, the incentives were recently in for those vehicles. Gas rate increase hurt G8 sales.

Zoom Zoom



So i guess i'll give the more affordable 3.6L camaro a look, and if i like it that'll be my next car. @ 22k, i think it's a VERY good bargain and by far the most appealing car in its price range. I can afford the 1SS, but its pricing puts it within reach of other cars i'd rather own so buying one new isn't happening. So my only choice on an SS would be to wait and pick up a used example when prices creep under 25k.

Play it safe and purchase the new Cadillac CTS. New Style, Horsepower 6, Luxury, Passenger Room, Priced Right, Proper ride for anyone between 20 and above.. enough said..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3124/2643698948_72255365ba.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2236/2267691347_77f5760225.jpg?v=0

It may draw from both of those markets...people who want better performance than the Mustang, but don't want to pay for a Corvette.

Well since we are going to get in wad over what the 2010 Camaro costs vs a 2009 Mustang. I might suggest that if you expect the price of the mustang to remain the same after the new body design and features are released then you are mistaken. The Price of the Mustang is going to go up as well, you can bet that the guys going to the dealership looking to buy a new 2010 Mustang are going to be looking at about 33-38K for a new mustang before ADMs.

The Camaro price is fine, if you can't afford one that sucks but unfortunately that is just the way it is. Honestly if you can't afford a 22K v6 then why complain about a 35K SS?
I can vividly remember looking at SS's back in 2002 with 32K window stickers on them...for 3K more 8 model years later I can have a 100 times better car...that is really not that much of a jump.

I think Ford can hold the line on pricing reasonably well, the '10 Mustang ('09s are out now and will stop production in december of this year) is pretty much an exterior and interior refresh with chassis tuning based on the current Bullitt (from what I understand) and no major mechanical changes from the previous S-197 car until '11 the powertrain gets updated. I dont see where this is going to drastically increase the pricing on the Mustang (remember again this is a 5 year old chassis - probably mostly or already paid for), then again in '11 its pretty much just a new engine, thanks to the GT500 from the trans back its all parts bin stuff, Ford doesn't need to reinvent the wheel there.

Lol, I like how folks here are trying to e-engineer the Mustang for epic fail (it can't possibly remain lighter than the F5, it can't possibly remain cheaper, Ford can't possibly do a better interior than the current one, if they add power they are gonna have to brace the chassis, ect, ect, ect).

For me, the pricing is fine. The perceived value that I will get exceeds the cost.

Agreed, I think the F5 is well priced, people need to get past the Mustang comparisons and really look at where the car is competing. Unfotunately all the press the car will get will be of the Mustang vs. Camaro type which is great for guys that have a bone to pick with Mustang and need thier ego stroked, but IMO it will only serve to devalue the car and preserve the notion that the F5 is nothing more than GM's answer to the Mustang.

It's ashame that we only have the Mustang V8 to compare to (that we typically do), thus we compare the two down the line from pricing to specs. The comparison is somewhat invalid in many aspects.

I have seen Mustang V6 sales for $16000 and $17000..... I doubt the Camaro 6 will get that kind of discounts.

The SS Camaro should be compared to the Challenger... can't really compare it to the Charger for it's more of a passenger 4 door.

If you were to look real close, Camaro pricing is along the line of the G8 and the Challenger.

:(



Agreed, I think the F5 is well priced, people need to get past the Mustang comparisons and really look at where the car is competing. Unfotunately all the press the car will get will be of the Mustang vs. Camaro type which is great for guys that have a bone to pick with Mustang and need thier ego stroked, but IMO it will only serve to devalue the car and preserve the notion that the F5 is nothing more than GM's answer to the Mustang.

While we are on the topic here are some pics of the upcoming changes that are instore for the new Mustang. This is the GT-500 but overall body changes will be similar and so will interior.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg13/black98ls1ta/SSPX0068.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg13/black98ls1ta/SSPX0067.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg13/black98ls1ta/SSPX0066.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg13/black98ls1ta/phpThumb_generated_thumbnail.jpg

I expect there to be a jump in price with the new Mustang, Ford would be shooting themselves in their already bleeding foot if they didn't raise the price a little even if it is only $1000 it will still change. You did bring up an interesting point though Bossco and that is the drive line swap for 2011 and that will bring the price up. Some folks at the other camp have been talking Cobra Jet which is basically just a detuned and smaller blower version of the GT-500 5.4. The prices will go up, how much will just be up to speculation until we see them next year.

I see they still have the same crap for an interior. Will Ford never learn?

I know its got "camo" on it..but it looks the same to me :shrug:

I see they still have the same crap for an interior. Will Ford never learn?

Nope and that is why the company will continue to suffer from poor sales. However having a cheap interior does keep costs down. This is one area where I think the Camaro is worth the extra money.

I know its got "camo" on it..but it looks the same to me :shrug:

If you look closely and follow the lines you can see some subtle differences but nothing too drastic just a face lift I think they are going to offer more interior options like SYNC.

At any rate I can see the price changing a bit for ford and going up to pay for the the R&D that they have in the new driveline as well as paying Giugiaro for his design work, and for the changing and retooling for all the aesthetics parts that were changed. Like someone else said the car is now 5 years old and it is still at 5 years ago prices and a whole lot has changed since then.

The way I see it, in terms of pricing vs the last gen cars is that there is no middle ground anymore. The V6 value for dollar is incredible at 23K vs the old car. The SS at 34k is only a little more than the last SS's (around 31-32k). and these pricepoints are fine.

Where we miss out, is the car to compete directly with a BASE gt mustang, or better yet; the last gen low option Z28/ formula/ or even a TA. And these cars were in the 25-28K pricerange.

So if you dont want to feel like you bought the lowly v6, and cant ante up the 10K price difference from a v6 to a v8; what do you do? There used to be an option.

a mid level 350-370 horse v8? motor car would hit the spot for a lot of buyers. Especially at 28-29k. Does it make good business sense to build another car and steal sales away from a much higher profit car in the SS? I'd say no, but I would buy one.

Im in the market for a new car in 2 years, and I would be looking in the midlevel range between the 2. I couldn't quite ante up for a WS6 when the last gen cars were made; and wont be able to quite make the price on an SS now; but a v6 isn't quite the way I want to go either.

How about a turbo I5 from the colorado? 350hp/350 tq and just below 30k sticker?

In 02 I was able to get a 3340 pound V8 and 6 speed manual Z28 out the door for $19k. Fast forward 8 years and I can get similar performance and 500lb's more weight for $13k more. No thanks, the new Cobalt SS does almost everything I want with 800lb's less weight and almost $10k less. Put the Cobalt up against the Camaro on a race track and the difference is marginal. Didn't the Camaro beat the Cobalt around Nurinburg by 1 second or something? That's not worth an extra $10k to me. The pricing did it for me, I was holding out hope the 1SS would come in around $28k and maybe I would buy. The new Stage kit for the cobalt is suppose to be around 315hp and combined with 30mpg ratings that's looking pretty good right now.


I'm not sure if that's a "good" comparison. Because, in reality the 4th gen f-body was JUST a straight line performer. It was not glamorous, handling sucked, interior quality was horrid, crappy leather, and so on. You were basically paying for engine.

In the last 4 or 5 years I have seen GM cars improve in the quality market, and I'm hoping this is brought over to the new Camaro. Also, I'm hoping that not ONLY is it a great straight line performer, but it's also a great handling with, what I'm hoping, BMW steering feel, great quality, great value, great sound system, reliable, and so on. If it fits all this than it's worth 30k to pay for it.

I wonder how long until we see huge rebates on these cars, then maybe people can afford to jump into one. The market will eventually set the price correctly on these things, I just think they are a few thousand too much right now for most people. There will probably be huge dealer markups in the beginning but about 12 months out they'll be begging you to buy one.

Yeap. That's what I'll be waiting for. :-)

I only read the first two pages, but I wanted to throw in my own 2 cents. Yes, the car comes with alot of power, IRS, etc., and the SS models (pricewise) are comparible to the SS cars back in the day - however, the fact remains that I cannot buy a V8 for under $30k.

I don't want fully loaded. I want a V8 and 6 gears. Keep the radio, I'll replace it anyway after a while, keep the sunroof, keep your gauges (someone will release an aftermarket), keep your leather and your 20 inch wheels. When I want fancy, I'll buy a BMW.

I don't care if mine is called an 'SS'. That's just a label that does not increase my fun factor - any mild horsepower improvements could be made up in a bit of aftermarket work. Hell, the only reason I own an SS at the moment is because I picked it up very very used.

I just think that they shot too high for the 'average' person.

I'm not sure if that's a "good" comparison. Because, in reality the 4th gen f-body was JUST a straight line performer. It was not glamorous, handling sucked, interior quality was horrid, crappy leather, and so on. You were basically paying for engine.

In the last 4 or 5 years I have seen GM cars improve in the quality market, and I'm hoping this is brought over to the new Camaro. Also, I'm hoping that not ONLY is it a great straight line performer, but it's also a great handling with, what I'm hoping, BMW steering feel, great quality, great value, great sound system, reliable, and so on. If it fits all this than it's worth 30k to pay for it.

I just read this and this is exactly what I mean. The Camaro is not meant to be a 'glamorous' car. Never was. My current 4th gen is worn out, but I had a mostly stock '96 that was a fantastic performer, nothing wrong with the leather, turned on a dime, etc.

The Camaro was not supposed to compete with luxury cars, and with doing that, they are missing their whole market. You want to know why younger people hop up hondas? It's because they can afford hondas.

We're going to see with this car, it's not going to sell as well as they hope. The bulk of the people who can really comfortably afford this car are A) Family people who need to have a 'practical' car, or B) Their tastes have changed to something more 'luxury' - they buy for comfort, not performance.

The 3rd gens had their Formula 350 model and the early 93/94Z28/Formula were definitely bargains,but things then started to get high when the SS/WS6 came out,so this mid-level thing is what,s missing.It would be interesting to see something like a 5.3(327c.i)w/around 365h.p .Also, Ford is also spinning their wheels in mud by not offering a LX Mustang,but even worse is that they can,t offer something like a proper Mercury Cougar as they have the platform!This shows why they are also going down the toilet as they aren,t listening to the 35-48 age group:mad:

I'm not sure if that's a "good" comparison. Because, in reality the 4th gen f-body was JUST a straight line performer. It was not glamorous, handling sucked, interior quality was horrid, crappy leather, and so on. You were basically paying for engine.

Ummm what?

IMHO if you are stretched out over the difference between $28,000 and $30,000 you are out of reach for a car in this category.
These cars are 4 seat sports cars not grocery getters.If you want the aura and go fast stuff,well it costs.Cool and speed cost money.
Case in point,I needed a new car for work as I commute 80 miles 1 way each day.Now I could have bought a Cobalt or Aveo,but I couldn't see myself in it.I decided on the HHR but wanted something a little quicker.I could get a regular HHR for around $17,000 but I got the HHR SS for $25,000.I damn sure didnt need a turbo and 18 inch wheels but I wanted it.
I like toys and GM sure knows it.A new Camaro SS was not intended as an only car for a family with 4 kids.Im waiting a year for it to cool off,then I will buy next years model.Bugs will be worked out by then.I wont buy the first year of anything.
So in reality my HHR SS will run only 5 large less than the new SS Camaro.
Hell that SS Camaro is a damn bargain in my book.If the new Camaro turns out to be 1/2 as much fun to drive as the other 2 SS's in my driveway ,Ill be good to go
2007 Impala SS, 08 HHR SS

I only read the first two pages, but I wanted to throw in my own 2 cents. Yes, the car comes with alot of power, IRS, etc., and the SS models (pricewise) are comparible to the SS cars back in the day - however, the fact remains that I cannot buy a V8 for under $30k.

I don't want fully loaded. I want a V8 and 6 gears. Keep the radio, I'll replace it anyway after a while, keep the sunroof, keep your gauges (someone will release an aftermarket), keep your leather and your 20 inch wheels. When I want fancy, I'll buy a BMW.

I don't care if mine is called an 'SS'. That's just a label that does not increase my fun factor - any mild horsepower improvements could be made up in a bit of aftermarket work. Hell, the only reason I own an SS at the moment is because I picked it up very very used.

I just think that they shot too high for the 'average' person.

I just read this and this is exactly what I mean. The Camaro is not meant to be a 'glamorous' car. Never was. My current 4th gen is worn out, but I had a mostly stock '96 that was a fantastic performer, nothing wrong with the leather, turned on a dime, etc.

The Camaro was not supposed to compete with luxury cars, and with doing that, they are missing their whole market. You want to know why younger people hop up hondas? It's because they can afford hondas.

We're going to see with this car, it's not going to sell as well as they hope. The bulk of the people who can really comfortably afford this car are A) Family people who need to have a 'practical' car, or B) Their tastes have changed to something more 'luxury' - they buy for comfort, not performance.

From the time the last 4th gen rolled off the assembly line till the first pre-prod. test drives this community "demanded" that the car be of substantially better quality than its predecessor. Now that we got what we wanted people are complaining that the car cost too much. Well what did you expect?!? As in all things in life, you get what you paid for. If you want something that is just as fast but cost less then you better damn well expect to make some sacrifices.

Yes, you can get a Mustang GT for substantially less than the Camaro SS but you are buying an inferior product in comparison. In 2011 or whenever the Mustang gets its full makeover then we'll have to see how it stacks up to the Camaro. If it is truly to be built with the quality and performance of the 5th gen. then you can't really expect it to come in for thousands less. That would be extremely foolish on your part.

Same goes for the Cobalt. Yes, you can get one and modify it to outrun the Camaro all the while costing less. From anything other than a purely performance aspect, this car pales in comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love the Cobalt SS, but it is nothing more than an entry level car. Besides this agrument is invalid anyway. I could find something much cheaper than the Cobalt SS and build it to blow the doors it and the Camaro in a purely performance viewpoint.

The truth is this car is priced right where its supposed to be (actually for the content offered in this car its cheaper than what I would have expected.) There is no other vehicle out there that can perform on par or offer the content that this car does for the same price. If you can find one then what are you complaining about? Go buy it.

BTW, this isn't a personal attack against Trybal but more so towards the general "It cost too much" audience.

I took a few minutes to look at the age of the folks responding to the thread. It brought up some interesting thoughts.
I own a 1999 Z28 (not SS) with all other options. I bought it new in 2000. MSRP sticker was around 26,000. I no longer have the sticker or I would scan it. Now, since I bought the car in 2000, it had been sitting on a dealer lot for over a year (just like now, 1999 models were released during 1998) I payed much less than MSRP. I payed (not financed) 22,400. I financed less than that due to down payment.
My thoughts are that the new 1SS is comparable in price to the old Z28, and the 2SS to the old SS. That said, for the price in 2000, you could get a fully loaded v-8 Camaro at less MSRP than now, that is true, however, there is such a thing as inflation. Not to forget that hopefully GM listened to our complaints about the 4th gens and improved all it's weak points.
I made substantially less money in 2000 than I do now, and that monthly payment was fairly easily made. I gave up on my hot-rods in order to have a nice, dependable moderately fast brand new car.
I won't go buy a new Camaro SS as soon as they hit the dealers, mostly because of "markups" and the folks that will buy them at that price.
I like what I have been able to see and read about the new Camaro SS, and to be totally honest, if I was going to buy a replacement for my 99Z right now, it would be the Challenger R/T.
I am however going to wait until the new SS is at the dealers, go sit in one, drive it, and make my decision then.

From the time the last 4th gen rolled off the assembly line till the first pre-prod. test drives this community "demanded" that the car be of substantially better quality than its predecessor. Now that we got what we wanted people are complaining that the car cost too much. Well what did you expect?!? As in all things in life, you get what you paid for. If you want something that is just as fast but cost less then you better damn well expect to make some sacrifices.

Yes, you can get a Mustang GT for substantially less than the Camaro SS but you are buying an inferior product in comparison. In 2011 or whenever the Mustang gets its full makeover then we'll have to see how it stacks up to the Camaro. If it is truly to be built with the quality and performance of the 5th gen. then you can't really expect it to come in for thousands less. That would be extremely foolish on your part.

Same goes for the Cobalt. Yes, you can get one and modify it to outrun the Camaro all the while costing less. From anything other than a purely performance aspect, this car pales in comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love the Cobalt SS, but it is nothing more than an entry level car. Besides this agrument is invalid anyway. I could find something much cheaper than the Cobalt SS and build it to blow the doors it and the Camaro in a purely performance viewpoint.

The truth is this car is priced right where its supposed to be (actually for the content offered in this car its cheaper than what I would have expected.) There is no other vehicle out there that can perform on par or offer the content that this car does for the same price. If you can find one then what are you complaining about? Go buy it.

BTW, this isn't a personal attack against Trybal but more so towards the general "It cost too much" audience.

No problem, I'm not that fragile. But I still disagree. The V8 car is priced outside its target demo. The only people willing to cough up that much is brand/model loaylists.

I never demanded more quality. The Camaro was never meant to be a luxury car. It was meant to go fast on a working man's budget.

If you want a fully loaded 1SS/2SS available to you with all the snazzy features and the 20-inch rims, more power to you. But, there is no BASE V8. That's my main point.

My personal feeling is that this incarnation of the car will not last long. It simply is not going to sell the way GM needs it to.

Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.

Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.

Even without the last sentence, that paragraph alone tells me that you probably should look deeper into how cars are built, how complicated it really is, and how critical the automotive industry is. None of it is actually that simple and if you think you are remotely safe and will not be affected if Detroit were to collapse, think again.

You can't look at just the number of cylinders and brakes, either. You have to look at the cost of the heavier duty suspension, transmission, and other assorted things that go along with it. A more accurate comparison would really be 1LT to 1SS since the 1SS comes with things that aren't included on the LS, but are on the 1LT, so knock about $2k off of that difference as well. And, in the past, it was fairly common to use a $10k for every 100 HP rule of thumb. It's all in line.

Even without the last sentence, that paragraph alone tells me that you probably should look deeper into how cars are built, how complicated it really is, and how critical the automotive industry is. None of it is actually that simple and if you think you are remotely safe and will not be affected if Detroit were to collapse, think again.

Oversimplifying, yes. But still nothing that (IMO) justifies the price jump. Sorry. And I think that most of America will agree with me. In the end, if America can't justify it, America won't pay it.

But you're also proving my point for me. Development is very expensive, yes. But that motor was already developed, it's not all-new for the Camaro.

As far as Detroit, would I be affected? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the automotive industry in this country is out-of-touch and financially diseased, and is now dragging the government into it's life support. It's disgusting.

8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand.

There are many, many additional features on the 1SS which do not come standard with an LS (some of them are available as extra-cost options):

In addition to the the LS3 engine and the Brembo brakes, these include:

Heavier-duty transmission to handle the additional engine torque
Different (larger diameter) exhaust
Different suspension tuning
Engine oil cooler
20x8" front and 20x9" rear wheels instead of 18x8" all around, with matching larger tires
Six-way power driver's seat instead of 4-way manual (the seats themselves are slightly different too)
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
Different instrument cluster
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate

I'm not sure if that's the complete list, but I think you can find eight grand worth of stuff there. :)

There are many, many additional features on the 1SS which do not come standard with an LS (some of them are available as extra-cost options):

In addition to the the LS3 engine and the Brembo brakes, these include:

Heavier-duty transmission to handle the additional engine torque
Different (larger diameter) exhaust
Different suspension tuning
Engine oil cooler
20x8" front and 20x9" rear wheels instead of 18x8" all around, with matching larger tires
Six-way power driver's seat instead of 4-way manual (the seats themselves are slightly different too)
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
Different instrument cluster
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate

I'm not sure if that's the complete list, but I think you can find eight grand worth of stuff there. :)

Yes, lots of nifty stuff, but give me a base V8 for around $26k and I'll be happy. That's all I'm really trying to say with all this.

No problem, I'm not that fragile. But I still disagree. The V8 car is priced outside its target demo. The only people willing to cough up that much is brand/model loaylists.

I never demanded more quality. The Camaro was never meant to be a luxury car. It was meant to go fast on a working man's budget.

If you want a fully loaded 1SS/2SS available to you with all the snazzy features and the 20-inch rims, more power to you. But, there is no BASE V8. That's my main point.

My personal feeling is that this incarnation of the car will not last long. It simply is not going to sell the way GM needs it to.

Edit: Perfect example here - the 1LS starts somewhere around 22,995, where the 1SS starts at 30,995. 8 Grand for two more cylinders? Who are they kidding? Ok, add the Brembo brakes, so let's make it 7 grand. 7 Thousand dollars (starting price) for an engine that already exists - it's not like they had to develop a completely new motor for the car. It's pricing like this that makes me hope for the collapse of Detroit.

Well, I think the "old way" of thinking with selling a car merely because of performance will not work in today's age. That was proven with the 4th gen. People want "features" and Ipod connections, pretty rims, and so on. Also, there's also the more important factor which the 4th gen didn't have which was quality, durability (not mechanical, but everything else), and overall driving experience (comfort, handling, ride and so on).

These factors have driven the 5th gen Camaro to be more than just a performance vehicle, but now to be a luxurious (I hope), sporty two door car.

Yes, lots of nifty stuff, but give me a base V8 for around $26k and I'll be happy. That's all I'm really trying to say with all this.

I assume you would still want all of the things that are there in support of the bigger engine. That's the oil cooler, trans, exhaust, wheels and tires, suspension, brakes, and instrument cluster.

That leaves the following items which you'd rather not pay for:

Six-way power driver's seat
Spoiler
Different front and rear fascias
Fog lamps
Leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
Carpeted floor mats
Chevrolet sill plate

Right? Right. Now here's the kicker: I'd say that's about $2000 worth of stuff.

That means the car you want might be doable for 28,995, and I really don't think that model would sell very well. Do you?

If you really want that configuration, buy the 1SS, and then find someone that bought an LS, and offer to swap a few parts. :)

That's the oil cooler, trans, exhaust, wheels and tires, suspension, brakes, and instrument cluster.

<snip>

That means the car you want might be doable for 28,995, and I really don't think that model would sell very well. Do you?


I think you'd be surprised. Maybe I don't want 20's, because of the recurring costs for tires. Maybe I think factory exhausts always stink, and the aftermarket always steps up and makes something better. Maybe I think Brembos are a bit overkill for a 'Standard' brake. Are they sweet? You betcha. But I think they could have done without.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter. Me complaining here is not going to suddenly make GM offer a cheaper car. We'll see how the sales play out.

I think you'd be surprised. Maybe I don't want 20's, because of the recurring costs for tires.
Fair enough, but you'd need wider wheels and tires anyway.

Maybe I think factory exhausts always stink, and the aftermarket always steps up and makes something better.
You still need a different exhaust on a V8 than you do on a V6 -- at the very least, it needs different manifolds.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter. Me complaining here is not going to suddenly make GM offer a cheaper car. We'll see how the sales play out.
This is true. :yes:

I personally think the car packages are set up pretty well, I would like the option of leather seating in the 1SS but I have no interest in power or heated seating in a summer only car. I plan to get a 1SS and then for around $700 add Katzskin leather seat covers.

The 1SS is 31K but If you wait a year I am sure with GMS and other rebates this car will be had for 28K and with 426Hp its a fair price compared to the rest of the cars available. Just go new car shopping and see what 30k can get you now.


Mustang is 3k less and you would need a lot more than that in mods to bring it up to Camaro specs.

Its beyond fairly priced the new camaro...

Find me another NEW car for less than 30k with 400+hp. And then you would have a valid arguement. But you can't find one, because there is none.

The V6 and V8 camaro's are targeted at different markets

The V6 is for people who want something more sporty than a malibu, and bigger than a cobalt.

The V8 is for HP junkies, and for people who love the camaro name.

Find me another NEW car for less than 30k with 400+hp. And then you would have a valid arguement. But you can't find one, because there is none.

There's some decent truth to that part. As I keep saying... (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=45)

While physics, government regulations, and end-user cost limitations will not allow the 2010 Camaro to be an exact continuation of Camaros past, one thing can be safely expected: Pound for pound, and dollar for dollar, the 2010 Camaro will continue to be one of the best (if not the very best) performance values of its kind, just as a Camaro should.

Oversimplifying, yes. But still nothing that (IMO) justifies the price jump. Sorry. And I think that most of America will agree with me. In the end, if America can't justify it, America won't pay it.

But you're also proving my point for me. Development is very expensive, yes. But that motor was already developed, it's not all-new for the Camaro.

As far as Detroit, would I be affected? Probably. But it doesn't change the fact that the automotive industry in this country is out-of-touch and financially diseased, and is now dragging the government into it's life support. It's disgusting.Yes, i will definitely agree w/you as i like said earlier, where are new models like Chevelle/Gto/Cougar XR7/Olds442/etc.Before i bought my 99GTP i had to drive a totally worn out 81Malibu b/c GM and other,s like Ford/mercury didn,t care about the car buyer that wanted a practical car w/a rear drive platform,large trunk,proper back seat,etc:mad:

Find me another NEW car for less than 30k with 400+hp. And then you would have a valid arguement. But you can't find one, because there is none.

I agree with the spirit of your argument, but it's worth noting that the base MSRP for a 1SS is $30,995, which is not less than 30k.

Then again, that base car is the LS3 version, which has 426hp, not 400. :)

Also, a car doesn't have to cost less in order to be competitive. Have you tried to find another 400+hp car at anything less than 35k? That doesn't exist either. Camaro SS isn't just the best performance bang for the buck out there -- nothing else is even close.

I"m afraid were going to end up what we had in the 4th gen and the mustang. CAmaro stops better,better gas MPG and faster. But cost several grand more. Therefore the mustang won sales hands down. The ecnomy is in the dumpster, and if most people can get a 2011 mustang for like 4 grand less than a camaro. There most of the time going to get the mustang. They dont' care about top speed etc. Having 300+ HP and get around town will be plenty enough.

I hope the 5th gen all the best luck and I don't think I"ll buy one since 34k out the door is too much for a poor mans car. YOu can get a used c5 Z06 for 25k now and be super nice. I know its not etc.

I just hope GM dont' go under. I hope they sell good.

ON a side a not eI think it looks like a lot like the Challenger, even though the camaro may have been desiged first, but last to markert....anway I guess I'm babbling.

Regards

There are a couple people I've talk to that say that $30k is too much, and they were saying "Well, GM was saying it was going to be comparable to the Stang GT's or other Muscle cars of the same release year.. WTF!?!

Nice that YOU can afford it, but I remember the 4thgen actually cost $17,900 MSRP when it first came out in '93... and while that was a long time ago and they made some improvements over the years, the only 4th gen cars worth anywhere close to a $30,000 MSRP were loaded LS-1 convertibles ... and that was still over-priced. You don't have to be Socrates to deduce that their over-pricing is one of the principle reasons that people stopped buying them.

To put it another way, many WORKING people right now are lucky to afford a roof over their heads... if GM won't give them a $20,000 pony car, then Ford will --- and can --- continue to sell new and used Mustangs all day long while GM declares bankruptcy.[/QUOTE]

Nice that YOU can afford it, but I remember the 4thgen actually cost $17,900 MSRP when it first came out in '93... and while that was a long time ago and they made some improvements over the years, the only 4th gen cars worth anywhere close to a $30,000 MSRP were loaded LS-1 convertibles ... and that was still over-priced. You don't have to be Socrates to deduce that their over-pricing is one of the principle reasons that people stopped buying them.

To put it another way, many WORKING people right now are lucky to afford a roof over their heads... if GM won't give them a $20,000 pony car, then Ford will --- and can --- continue to sell new and used Mustangs all day long while GM declares bankruptcy.

You can't get a Mustang GT for $20,000. :confused:

Have you heard of inflation? It's been 17 years since the 4th gen came out. At a typical inflation rate of 4%, prices should double every 18 years. Camaro has done less than that.

It's not GM's fault that average wages haven't kept up with inflation.

You can't get a Mustang GT for $20,000. :confused:

Have you heard of inflation? It's been 17 years since the 4th gen came out. At a typical inflation rate of 4%, prices should double every 18 years. Camaro has done less than that.

It's not GM's fault that average wages haven't kept up with inflation.

I just needed to say i looked at my window sticker from my 2005 gto
which is very close to what you get with a 1 ss

the window was 32640 plus tax
my 1ss rs is 32900
so you give up the leather and 6 disc changer
top off the line hadling both years
top of the line power both years
and same price

that is all i have on this other than my gto sat on the lot for a year
and i bought it for 26500

David

that is all i have on this other than my gto sat on the lot for a year
and i bought it for 26500

I think that's called "the market sets the price"... exactly what I'm talking about.

be grateful they even brought the camaro back to life

LOL at guys comparing a 1993 MSRP to today and cars that sat on a lot for a year to MSRP. Mustang is right up there with Camaro. Maybe a thousand less, but with all other things aside, the 100hp difference would sway most buyers. And anyone who couldnt easily swing a $500 car payment shouldnt even be looking at a new car like this, thats why we are in the bank crisis we have.

Well, I built a 2SS on Chevy's website, IBM, RS, and it 's MSRP is $35,850.

Went to Ford, and built as close to an identical Mustang as I could, and this is what it was:

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq223/kmdracer/20010Mustangbuild.jpg

Sure, I could have built the 'stang with less options, but then, I'd compare it to a 1SS. In all honesty, I'm not sure I can justify spending $35,000 on a pony car right now. May have to go with a G8 GT for practicallity, or at least the Chally for the room. Just some thoughts..not saying one car is better than the other, I like things about all 3 of the new pony cars! :yes:

The price of cars has gone up every year since I can remember while incomes have stayed about the same. No bailout is going to stop what is going to happen.

with proper budgeting u can afford anything your heart desires

the 100hp difference would sway most buyers.

It's a 111hp difference, and no, most buyers don't give a ****.

LOL! I just hope there a LOT of you who are more than willing and able to buy these babies at $30,000 a pop, because --- our own desires aside --- GM needs to sell at least 80,000 a year or it's bye bye GM as we know it, because...

...remember --- those 80,000 per-year sales will only go DOWN every subsequent year... In fact, if you think they're such a good deal, buy TWO like that guy with the twin red ones for he and his wife!

Sure, don't get the Camaro. Camaro owners have always need more Mudstains on the road to humiliate. You can re-live the good ole days of Vanilla Ice singing, oh, wait, that was more humilliation.

Seriously, the v6 Camaro will be equal to the small v8 mustang in price and performance and get 20% better gas mileage. And that's with the Camaro having all the good options of a 6 speed auto and 20" wheels. Wait a bit for the Camaro rebates to kick in, read the reviews, then drive both before you decide.

Hal

LOL! I just hope there a LOT of you who are more than willing and able to buy these babies at $30,000 a pop, because --- our own desires aside --- GM needs to sell at least 80,000 a year or it's bye bye GM as we know it, because...

...remember --- those 80,000 per-year sales will only go DOWN every subsequent year... In fact, if you think they're such a good deal, buy TWO like that guy with the twin red ones for he and his wife!

Hey, no, I hope they only sell a few and I have one :)

Hal

It's a 111hp difference, and no, most buyers don't give a ****.

How do you figure? Most guys who dont know cars would look at that and say screw 315hp, I want 400+, Its obviously alot faster. For the uneducated, I want a fast car public, that would sway them alot.

How do you figure? Most guys who dont know cars would look at that and say screw 315hp, I want 400+, Its obviously alot faster. For the uneducated, I want a fast car public, that would sway them alot.

The vast majority of car buyers -- even those that would consider a Camaro or a Mustang -- don't even look at the horsepower numbers, let alone base their decision on them.

I highly disagree with that statement. What is your reasoning behind that?

If you're in the market for a V8 muscle car then hp is definately going to be included in the evaluation. I can kinda see your point with the V6 cars but there's just no way that someone cross shopping the top of the line models will not be concerned one bit about hp.

EDIT:

FWIW, I priced out "my" Mustang and Camaro. Just a hair over $34.5k for the Mustang and almost $35.2k for the Camaro. It would seem a no-brainer for which car I would choose.

I highly disagree with that statement. What is your reasoning behind that?

For the next month, ask every Mustang or Camaro driver that you encounter in person how much horsepower their car was rated from the factory.

Some will have an approximate idea. Some will know exactly. The vast majority will tell you they don't know, look at you like you're crazy, or say something like "a lot! want to ride in it?"

Maybe I have surrounded myself with different people (or maybe you have:p) but hell, my parents who don't even remotely share the same enthusiasm about cars as I do asked about the hp levels of the cars they were cross shopping. Got an uncle who recently bought a Bullitt because it "made more power and had a better suspension over the GT." Like I said before, if we're talking Camry's and Civics then I would understand but not muscle cars.