G3 "proves that you don't have to sacrifice sporty design and responsive driving"

Yes, the end of the world must be near.....


http://us.tnpv.net/2008/GMC200809/GMC2008091782769_PV.jpg



Pontiac G3 at a Glance

Sporty, small five-door available in spring 2009
Fuel-efficient 1.6L four-cylinder engine achieves 34 mpg
Uncommonly high level of standard content, passenger room within segment
Detroit - Expanding its portfolio in the rapidly growing small car segment, Pontiac announced plans to bring the sporty, five-door hatchback G3 to U.S. showrooms early next year. When it arrives, the G3 will provide Pontiac with a total of four vehicles capable of more than 30 miles per gallon on the highway.

Already successful in Canada (as the Pontiac G3 Wave) and Mexico (as a sedan model), the G3 offers an EPA estimated 27 mpg in the city and 34 mpg on the highway while providing the best shoulder and hip room in the segment for seating five adults.

“The small car segment has literally exploded in recent months, with sales up nearly 33 percent in the first six months of 2008 alone,” said Susan Docherty, vice president of Buick-Pontiac-GMC. “With its proven success in other markets, we felt the time was right to bring the G3 into the BPG portfolio for our U.S. customers.”

The 2009 G3 will join the all-new 2009 Vibe (32 mpg) and recently enhanced 2009 versions of the G6 sedan (33 mpg) and G5 coupe (37 mpg) in Pontiac’s “Over 30” club.

“More than ever, fuel economy is an important factor in Pontiac’s formula of style and performance,” said Docherty. “The Vibe, G3, G5, and G6 prove that you don’t have to sacrifice sporty design and responsive driving to achieve impressive fuel economy.”

Generating 106 horsepower (79 kW), the G3’s 1.6L Ecotec four-cylinder engine is mated to a five-speed manual or optional four-speed automatic transmission. It will also feature an unusually rich mix of standard features for an entry-level car, including air conditioning, a CD/MP3 audio system with auxiliary input jack, fog lamps, rear spoiler, OnStar, and a host of standard safety features, including four airbags, that gain the G3 a five-star frontal crash rating.

Interior space is optimized to comfortably seat five adults, including “theater”-style seating for rear seat passengers. The rear seats also feature a 60/40 split to offer up to 42 cubic feet of cargo space.

The Pontiac G3 will arrive in U.S. showrooms in spring 2009 as a 2009 model and will be backed by GM’s five-year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. Pricing will be announced closer to introduction.

Can I change my vote to kill the Pontiac brand?

Knock, knock, knockin' on Heaven's door...

I can understand wanting to kill off Pontiac. But do they have to embarass the brand before it dies?

I have no issue with the G3, I'm just shocked that the VP of P-B-G could describe it the way she did.

The G3 is in Mexico right? It is the Wave in Canada. They aren't bringing this to the US are they?

I have no issue with the G3, I'm just shocked that the VP of P-B-G could describe it the way she did.

I have a serious issue with it.

Last year, the talk was of a Pontiac "renaissance" of sorts - Alpha was supposed to save the brand and put some performance and excitement back into GM's "excitement division", along with the Solstice and G8.

Fast forward to now. Pontiac's not getting Alpha, the Solstice apparently won't be replaced, and the G8's days are numbered. Then someone thinks it's a good idea to give them a rebadged Chevy Aveo, and the VP has the audacity to call it "sporty"!

I understand that small, fuel-efficient cars need to be produced to deal with the current gas situation and future CAFE regulations. However, they shouldn't destroy a brand's image and reputation (which has already suffered enough in the last decade or so) in the process. There is absolutely nothing about the Aveo/G3 that is sporty or exciting. It doesn't fit with Pontiac's image at all.

. There is absolutely nothing about the Aveo/G3 that is sporty or exciting.

No arguments here. Those statements make me feel that Pontiac is run by corporate "ticket punchers", devoid of any passion or vision for the brand, and happy to simply spew the corporate party line.

Is it the same as a Chevy Aveo?

Is it the same as a Chevy Aveo?

Unfortunately, yes.

Is it the same as a Chevy Aveo?

No, the G3 has a different grill :D

No, the G3 has a different grill :D

Cant anyone their see they are making their image look "cheep"

What about waiting untill the next replacement rather rush to offer another crappy alternative to an already crappy car?

I wonder how long this one took to design:rolleyes:

Hasn't the Aveo alread been on the market for a while? How long is this abomination going to be around? Got a pic of the front?

The G3 is in Mexico right? It is the Wave in Canada. They aren't bringing this to the US are they?

Oh yes, yes they are...

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/01/pontiacwave5_canadiandriver.jpg
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Is this a dealer demanded item like th G5 (because of fuel proces and demand for smaller cars) or did GM management come up with this all on their own?

not a good way to build an image as americas poor mans BMW...:no:

I never understood why Pontiac was supposed to be the "sporty" brand. I guess they sort of did it with the the G6 alot sportier then the aura/malibu., but they make the Cobalt SS and there is no G5 counterpart? THe GTO and G8 were a good move but they are seemingly gone.

Its not to say the Vibe is a bad car but I don't see it as "sporty".


As for this car, if its a "decent" car i don't think its a bad idea to have a competitor to the Honda Fit/Toyota Yaris, they are flying off the shelves.

but the Aveo was a POS.

I dunno, I think this car is pretty consistent with how GM has positioned Pontiac for the last 35 years or so.

not a good way to build an image as americas poor mans BMW...:no:

Key word here for Pontiac is "poor". A cheap fuel-efficient car is something Pontiac customers would be interested in.

This is ridiculous. Seriously, seriously ridiculous.

I'm speechless. :no:

Oh yes, yes they are...

D*mn, what a plague on GM?

So how long until the Buick and Saturn versions come out?

I just read that Orlando's cancelled, now this.

The most extreme reaction against a new vehicle that I've ever felt was the Pontiac Aztek. I felt that no one in their right mind would have approved a vehicle with an exterior design like that. To me, this G3 is far worse.

First, the car is cheap... it even looks cheap. Something like this is almost an afterthought over in a Chevrolet showroom. It's sales are being throughly spanked by the much better (in design, content, and IMHO, quality) Cobalt.

Yet, Pontiac is supposed to be an upscale brand from Chevrolet. It's G8 is a performance sedan. The G6 even in bread and butter versions hints sportiness that even the new stylish-leaning Malibu doesn't have. The Solstice gives Pontiac sporting cred, and the GXP versions of all 3 give Pontiac a glimmer of that "excitement division" it's supposed to represent. Hell, even the G5 looks better (more sporty and upscale at the same time) than the Cobalt.

The G3 is a complete and total insult to the Pontiac Motor Division.

I am almost 100% certain this is the doing of Pontiac dealers clamoring for a fuel efficient car and General Motors instead of seeing through their own vision and plans, caves in and wreaks their gameplan and credibility once again. First Buick dealers killed the RWD Park Avenue. Now Pontiac dealers do this. Yet both of them are doing everything possible to drive themselves to extinction.

Yes, to say the G3 disgusts me would probably be an understatement. :mad:

I have no issue with the G3, I'm just shocked that the VP of P-B-G could describe it the way she did.

It's her job...she's got to be the ultimate sales person. She can't really go out to the press and say "We have our own version of the Chevy Aveo, but with the Pontiac grille and G8-like side vents". :lol:

I'm hoping she wouldn't be in her position if she didn't know any better.

It's her job...she's got to be the ultimate sales person. She can't really go out to the press and say "We have our own version of the Chevy Aveo, but with the Pontiac grille and G8-like side vents". :lol:

I'm hoping she wouldn't be in her position if she didn't know any better.

The side vents aren't even unique to the G3. The 2009 Aveo5 has them, too.

http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/09_jun/2009-chevy-aveo5-and-aveo-sedan-will-start-at-12-120.jpg

What a friken joke . I thought Pontiac was supposed to be reducing drastically the number models and replacing them with LOW VOLUME high profit niche minded cars that focused on performance and desireablity . Pontiac should be doing nothing more than prepping a G8 coupe and a alpha sedan and ditching the Vibe , G5 and this hideous G3 and call their lineup complete .

Outside the G8 and Solstice , Pontiac will never been anything more than a characture of Chevy .

Screw the damn actually cool Corsa , why not just give Saturn a Aveo clone too while were at it . Old time GM still seems very much alive as of late .

Just give Saturn the Commodore and kill Pontichevytoyotiac before the brand is ruined anymore than it already is .

...... This is almost getting silly now. I'm as big a Pontiac supporter as you'll see, but why are they still around? There is no product they sell (or in the pipeline it seems) that couldn't be a Chevy or a Saturn. .....How much did it cost GM to dump Olds again? How much is it costing GM to keep Pontiac afloat by throwing slow selling, badge engineered products (Solstice excepted) at them? How much better could the other divisions be with Pontiac's slice of the pie gone from GM's budget?

And for the record, I think Buick should go as well for the same reason.An old post of mine that would seem to be applicable here...

... as are my later responses in that thread.

What a friken joke . I thought Pontiac was supposed to be reducing drastically the number models and replacing them with LOW VOLUME high profit niche minded cars that focused on performance and desireablity .

Problem: Pontiac/Buick/GMC has more dealerships than Toyota, but their total sales are less than one half of Chevrolet's. There's no way you can reduce their volume even further without shutting down a ton of stores -- and that will cost billions of dollars which GM doesn't have. So if they're stuck with all these dealerships, why not use them to move metal?

Also I think the statements that Pontiac is "desirable" or "upscale" compared to Chevy are debatable to say the least, and selling prices would probably back that up.

You guys are acting like this is the first time they put a Pontiac snout on a unwhelming Chevy. :shrug:

The funny thing is it doesn't even get better mileage than a G5, why would dealers want this car?

:no:

Sporty and responsive? I had a 2008 G6 hard top convertible rental car when I was in Anaheim last week and it drove like a boat... mushy brakes, water bed chassis, numb steering, etc... which actually surprised me since it's a sport-marketed coupe of decent reputation among the GM crowd and also because it supposedly shares its chassis with my friend's 2008 Saturn Aura which is quite a bit more responsive to drive and it's a family-oriented sedan.

Why can't GM stick to one theme or another with Pontiac? They were so damn close to having something great going...who wants a rebadge of a rebadge daewoo? Good lord this makes me sick. How can you put this thing on a lot beside a G8?

THe GTO and G8 were a good move but they are seemingly gone.

.

I hope the G8 owners dont experience the same stuff alot of us GTO guys have: lack of parts, service, dealer knowledge. Everytime I walk into a pontiac service department I feel an undertone that "ug a GTO".

My car has been good considering some of the iffy ones out their, but their is times I have wished I just bought a Mustang or Corvette which has a little more dealer support and direction.

I just yacked.

I give- kill it. Just kill the entire brand. At least when they had the euro-sport LeMans in the late 80's they still had a Trans Am on the lot to look at.

I can see it now- someone driving a red G3 with a sunroof and fender air extractors with a 'pontiac racing' t-shirt.

I don't get the air extractors- I guess it saves the customer a trip to Pep Boys for the stick on port holes.

I dunno, I think this car is pretty consistent with how GM has positioned Pontiac for the last 35 years or so.

Unfortunately I agree. The pontiac name means nothing as far as I can tell. I was hoping they would build it to mean, if you bought a pontiac, you bought a sports car. Id rather GM kill the brand if it is not going to mean anything.


Key word here for Pontiac is "poor".

I said poor... not homeless...:mad::lol:

A cheap fuel-efficient car is something Pontiac customers would be interested in.

Pontiac customers when pontiac should mean sports car? This is a rebadged chevy rock bottom economy car as far as I can tell... :no:

You guys are acting like this is the first time they put a Pontiac snout on a unwhelming Chevy. :shrug:

Actually, I consider this a new low.

The funny thing is it doesn't even get better mileage than a G5, why would dealers want this car?

I guess either the dealers want a high mileage sedan or the dealers don't know any better.

Why can't GM stick to one theme or another with Pontiac? They were so damn close to having something great going...who wants a rebadge of a rebadge daewoo? Good lord this makes me sick. How can you put this thing on a lot beside a G8?

Exactly my sentiments.


I hope the G8 owners dont experience the same stuff alot of us GTO guys have: lack of parts, service, dealer knowledge. Everytime I walk into a pontiac service department I feel an undertone that "ug a GTO".

My car has been good considering some of the iffy ones out their, but their is times I have wished I just bought a Mustang or Corvette which has a little more dealer support and direction.

That's very intresting since I'd likely buy a GTO if I happened across one that was a screaming deal in Black or blue. Please PM me your experiences.

I just yacked.

I give- kill it. Just kill the entire brand. At least when they had the euro-sport LeMans in the late 80's they still had a Trans Am on the lot to look at.


Pontiac had a strong car line up beyond the Trans Am. Grand Prix, Grand Am, Bonneville, turbochargers in everything. As a result, no one really remember's the Daewoo built LeMans. Today, Pontiac has so few models that I don't think even the G8 will overshadow this G3.

Old time GM still seems very much alive as of late ..


cookie cutter cars with grills that are of that division..I hope someone at GM is looking at this thread..whoever put this into motion you SUCK!
People were just about turning thier heads in lokoing at these cars GM had out now..they will see duplicates and badges that can fall off and you could not tell them apart..that will sway them AWAY from GM..:mad:

and the G8 is a gonner too?? WTF is wrong with GM???

Wait...when did the G8 get the axe?!

Whats next, the G1 Bicycle?

Wait...when did the G8 get the axe?!

The G8 hasn't gotten any axe & it's running a normal model lifespan which is about 4 years. After that, anything can happen.

The Chrysler 300, Mustang GT, & Ford Five Hundred nee Taurus, and even the G6 are all old designs that either are or (in the case of the 300) needs to be replaced. It's an extremely rare car that can go longer than that without a redesign without seeing sales hit the gutter. G8 will likely be at that point in another 2 years.

At that point, GM will need to either redesign or replace. That's not dropping the axe on the car. That's a normal lifespan.

It wouldn't be so bad if they actually took the time to make it sporty and not just a Pontiac nosejob. Sporty in the context of the Honda Fit. I understand that paddleshifters or a peppy engine like the Fit is no comparison to a G8 GXP, but at least it would be in keeping with the whole Pontiac performance image. If the pics of the G3 are any indication of what it'll be in the U.S., then might as well call it an Astre and bring back the Aztec while they're at it.

Whats next, the G1 Bicycle?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The G8 hasn't gotten any axe & it's running a normal model lifespan which is about 4 years. After that, anything can happen.

The G8 was only supposed to be produced in Australia for a couple years, and then production was supposed to move to Canada alongside the rest of the Zeta cars. The other Zeta cars (except the Camaro) have been killed off, and the G8 will continue to be produced in Australia. With the coming CAFE regulations, the costs of shipping cars from Australia, and the lack of other Zeta cars to share the costs, the G8's days are numbered.

Even the 4 cyl 61-63 tempest 'LOOKED' sporty.

This just makes me sick to see pontiac sink this low.

And I thought the LeMans from the late '80s was dumb. Apparently Pontiac's "heads" (I use that term loosely) didn't think much before coming up with this idea. Where's all the Pontiac defenders that've been acting like I'm an idiot for the last 2 years, every time I brought up the fact my favorite brand is pretty much dying right before our eyes???

I drove my wife's Comp G to work today to have the supercharger oil changed. I haven't driven it in eons, but I have to say, every time I do, no matter what I was driving before it (I drive something new all the time), I love this damn car. It handles very well for FWD, that supercharged torque is intoxicating, and its flat FUN. I can't imagine how much better a G8 must be...still haven't driven one.

Yet, no one else has either, it would seem. No marketing, and only a couple on the roads. This car is better in every conceivable way than the '97 Grand Prix, yet that car made a huge splash...the G8? Barely a ripple. The mags love it. No one else cares. GM doesn't even care. Where is the marketing? I know GM is in dire straits right now, but this is getting ridiculous. Even when GM WAS doing better, there was still no Pontiac focus.

Once all the BPG dealers are aligned, I say the hammer drops on Pontiac. Other than the G8, Saturn already has a better version of every Pontiac offering, anyway. I'm really, really sad....

I think the real point here is that if this car sucks so bad, Chevy shouldn't be selling it either

If GM had a good competitor for the Honda Fit and Nissan Versa, would their usual badge engineering be so much of a problem? I don't think so, the problem here is that the Aveo is considered to be the cheapest junk on the road.

Subcompacts are an increasingly important part of the market, and GM has to have competitive models in their volume outlets. And Pontiac is a volume outlet.

If GM had a good competitor for the Honda Fit and Nissan Versa, would their usual badge engineering be so much of a problem? I don't think so, the problem here is that the Aveo is considered to be the cheapest junk on the road.
Thing is, I doubt too many people on this board have been in an in Aveo, let alone driven one.

Contrary to the belief of fellow F-Body folk, the Aveo isn't a bad car, especially when compared to its competitive set. And with all the changes they've made for the 2009MY, the car is a solid entry that's already as competitive as anything in its class. The powertrain, interior, suspension, and content upgrades made for '09 make this a good buy and a great car for people who don't need to "go large" but don't want to give up features. All at a price point that is attractive with a 100,000 mile Powertrain Warranty.

As for the G3, seeing as how I have both Chevy and Pontiac lines, it's not a big deal to me. However, for BPG stores, I can almost see their wanting a truely entry-level compact at a low cost of entry.

For comparisons of how it shouldn't be sold next to a G8, just remember that the Aveo is sold next to the Corvette and Silverado. Different cars for different needs.

I am a Pontiac man through and through, and trust me when I say that I see where you all are coming from. While I don't believe the G3 is true "Driving Excitement" in the terms I'd like to see Pontiac known for, I will back this model in hopes that its sales will justify more sporting products for Pontiacs future.

Thing is, I doubt too many people on this board have been in an in Aveo, let alone driven one. I have. Put several hundred miles on one not long after they came out.

IMO you get all of the bad micro car traits without any of the good.

It had one of the most uncomfortable seating positions I have ever encountered. It honestly felt like the gas pedal was behind the center stack. Endured this while struggling to get better than 30 mpg highway.

I also know of two co-workers who bought one. Let's just say they're not the most reliable cars on the road....

Okay...so I give up on Pontiac being a poor man's BMW...GM does not have the fortitude to see that through.

That being said...can we go back to the Pontiac of say...2000?

Back then you had the Grand Am GT..which when it was new looked like it could rip the pony off a Mustang (even if the power was not there). The Grand Prix had a great design and could following. The Bonneville was cool design hobbled by a horrible interior. The Firebird was the most agressive looking car on the road. Even the ****box sunfire looked like it had some performance DNA in it. Pontiac's then at least looked like they were intended to be sporty and have some performance to them over a Chevy or whatever.

If you look at the Pontiac's we have now...even the fast ones are emotionless. G8 blends in with crowd...G6 looks old. Cobalt (I mean G5)..who cares. Solstice...whatever. Even the Gx names have no emotional context. The old cars were named after races, and racetracks.

What I am saying is GM has painted themeselves in a corner. In 2000, the owner of a Grand Am would not consider a Malibu. The owner of a Grand Prix would not consider and Impala. Pontiac had the role of capturing people who wanted more emotion in their cars. Aside from the G8...Pontiac does not make one car today that has that kind of must have appeal. Give me a choice between a G6 and Malibu...I am buying a Malibu. Sky looks better the Solstice...and so forth. Not bringing out a new Grand Prix was a huge mistake. Grand Prix sold over 100K units a year...and before they butchered the 2004 redesign, those cars went to mostly retail customers and not fleets. Instead they have just the G8 at 20K units a year. What happens to all those Grand Prix customers? They sure are not buying Impala's....they are buying Altimas and TL's and so forth.

I am thinking that GM is giving Pontiac the 4th Gen F-body treatment. Starve it of product untill the sales shrink enough you can use it as an excuse to pull the plug.

Thing is, I doubt too many people on this board have been in an in Aveo, let alone driven one.

I've had the misfortune of driving one. The interior was cheap, the exterior was bland, and it struggled to maintain highway speeds. It wasn't good at all.

And Pontiac is a volume outlet.

There was a time this was true. That time is long, long past us, my friend. Pontiac's glory days of major sales are long gone...and don't look to be coming back, either.

Yet Nissan, and Mazda, sell a similar product to a similar audience with a similarly sized, or smaller, dealer network, and absolutely crush Pontiac in retail volume. Go figure! GM has made a lot of great moves over the past couple years...but they've also castrated Pontiac.

Red guage cluster lighting complimented by Chevy green for stereo:
http://us.tnpv.net/2008/WKA200809/WKA2008091783046_pv.jpg

We talked about this months back. I believe this move was more the work of GM than whiney dealers (I'm sure they didn't fight it). GM just needs to stop issuing statements about abandoning badge-engineering.

That being said...can we go back to the Pontiac of say...2000?

Back then you had the Grand Am GT..which when it was new looked like it could rip the pony off a Mustang (even if the power was not there). The Grand Prix had a great design and could following. The Bonneville was cool design hobbled by a horrible interior. The Firebird was the most agressive looking car on the road. Even the ****box sunfire looked like it had some performance DNA in it. Pontiac's then at least looked like they were intended to be sporty and have some performance to them over a Chevy or whatever.

You make some very good points here. Funny thing is that back then the car rags, and a lot of customers, were always griping about the cladding and "boy racer" looks of Pontiacs. Yet once they got rid of those, sales went down. Strange, huh?

You make some very good points here. Funny thing is that back then the car rags, and a lot of customers, were always griping about the cladding and "boy racer" looks of Pontiacs. Yet once they got rid of those, sales went down. Strange, huh?

The thing is...they sold great for not being great cars. The thing about design is it is better to be polarizing and really appeal to just your target market rather than designing a car for everyone.

The thing is...they sold great for not being great cars. The thing about design is it is better to be polarizing and really appeal to just your target market rather than designing a car for everyone.

I totally agree.

I am far far far far more likely to buy a G8 than I was to ever even consider buying a Grand Prix. I hated the Grand Prix interior and never was that impressed by the powertrain options.

The only reason I probably won't buy a G8 this go-round is I'm looking for something smaller and more economical... like a Chevy Cruze or Honda Insight.

FWIW I think all the "ecoboxes" are junk. A friend has an Aveo sedan with less than 36k on it. Sure its a few years old - but it has been to the dealer quite a few times for warranty work.

Another friend just grabbed a new Yaris. I've driven the Fit.

Between the three, they're all junk. For my $ I'd rather have the Fit though.

For that price tag, you cant make an awesome car. They all feel extremely cheap. But look at the Mini Cooper or the Smart - or the 1 series. Those things are tiny and *not* cheap. Pontiac needs a super-mini, not some pos Aveo. They shouldnt be trying to sell a car at the same pricepoint as an Aveo. Their vehicle should be up-scale. Seriously. The whole "poor man's BMW" could totally work if they only meant it and could afford to put a little R&D into it...

And too bad those superminis they showed us years ago were just meant to be a tease... :(

I am far far far far more likely to buy a G8 than I was to ever even consider buying a Grand Prix. I hated the Grand Prix interior and never was that impressed by the powertrain options.

I owned a 1999 Grand Prix GT and quite liked it, especially the styling. I agree on the 2004 redesign: it lost pretty much all of its appeal inside and out. It actually drove fairly well (I ended up in enough of them through work) but I would never have bought one. And now I have a G8 GT and once again love being in a Pontiac. Or maybe I just have a soft spot for Pontiacs, having owned more of them than any other brand of car (I once owned a couple of Fieros too).

There was a time this was true. That time is long, long past us, my friend. Pontiac's glory days of major sales are long gone...and don't look to be coming back, either.

Yet Nissan, and Mazda, sell a similar product to a similar audience with a similarly sized, or smaller, dealer network, and absolutely crush Pontiac in retail volume. Go figure! GM has made a lot of great moves over the past couple years...but they've also castrated Pontiac.

I know what you're saying, and tend to agree. But the G6 and Vibe still sell in decent if not great numbers. There's still some potential at Pontiac if they can get their core product in shape.

The 1997 Grand Prix was top of it's game when it came out. I really think you will see people collecting these down the road. The 2004+ Grand Prix was a disaster in that it had polarizing styling....that no one liked. Also it was slower then the car it replaced. The Grand Prix GXP was the best car, and they killed it with an even worse looking front clip.

In the north especially, there is still a market for a large, sporty, FWD sedan.

I am far far far far more likely to buy a G8 than I was to ever even consider buying a Grand Prix. I hated the Grand Prix interior and never was that impressed by the powertrain options.

The only reason I probably won't buy a G8 this go-round is I'm looking for something smaller and more economical... like a Chevy Cruze or Honda Insight.

There was a time this was true. That time is long, long past us, my friend. Pontiac's glory days of major sales are long gone...and don't look to be coming back, either.

Yet Nissan, and Mazda, sell a similar product to a similar audience with a similarly sized, or smaller, dealer network, and absolutely crush Pontiac in retail volume. Go figure! GM has made a lot of great moves over the past couple years...but they've also castrated Pontiac.

perfectly put. Pontiac has no buisness selling a economy car. Chevy can always sell all the aveos people want. Not one thing on that car says excitement. I really thought the poor mans BMW pontiac was a good idea and I had hope. I think the G8 is an awesome car. Havent driven one but a guy in my apartment complex showed his off to me. I was really impressed other than the center dash atari graphics. Hes going to swap the front end for a HSV front end. I like his better but thats me.

If the G3 had been possible to have been anything like this I think it would have been a completely different story maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsVr4idewX4&feature=related

I am far far far far more likely to buy a G8 than I was to ever even consider buying a Grand Prix. I hated the Grand Prix interior and never was that impressed by the powertrain options.

The only reason I probably won't buy a G8 this go-round is I'm looking for something smaller and more economical... like a Chevy Cruze or Honda Insight.

And that's the problem. Pontiac has traded a bunch of customers who liked the Grand Prix and bought them for a bunch of customers who like the G8, but won't.

There seems to me to be some evidence that what people say they want out of Pontiac and what people actually buy from Pontiac are two different things.

There seems to me to be some evidence that what people say they want out of Pontiac and what people actually buy from Pontiac are two different things.

Eric get's it!

Let's see...

Pontiac got the G8.

Pontiac got the GTO.

Pontiac got the Solstice.

Pontiac always got the best W-cars, including the very excellent GP GXP.

Pontiac got a G6 coupe and a convertible and even a stick/V6 for awhile.

Pontiac got a budget for the 4th gen Firebird completely uncommensurate with it's sales.

I could go on, but jeeze-o-pete, Pontiac has had lots of enthusiast fodder thrown at it over the years.

The thing is...Pontiac's volume will always be in building "emotional" cars. When the Grand Am GT came out in 99..it looked like it could it eat a Mustang for lunch...even though in terms performance, and even general build quality it was lackluster. Performance aside..Pontiac owners want car's that make I dunno....an "agressive...exciting" statement. Vehicles like the G5, G6, Vibe, and even G8 to an extent are very emotionless..right down to their names. The problem is...there are plenty of way better emotionless cars out there.

The thing is...Pontiac's volume will always be in building "emotional" cars. When the Grand Am GT came out in 99..it looked like it could it eat a Mustang for lunch...even though in terms performance, and even general build quality it was lackluster. Performance aside..Pontiac owners want car's that make I dunno....an "agressive...exciting" statement. Vehicles like the G5, G6, Vibe, and even G8 to an extent are very emotionless..right down to their names. The problem is...there are plenty of way better emotionless cars out there.
This is basically true.

The thing that gets me is that this is yet another example of how the whole "reduce overlap at GM" talk was completely BS. They need some people running the show that have the gumption or cajones, or whatever, to keep the brands on track and not badge engineer anymore vehicles for no reason except to appease dealers and waste development money.

However, Pontiac is still one of the best selling brands for GM. The G6 sells well. But I think overall there should be nothing that doesn't have excitement in the showroom. They should all be something you cannot get at any other GM dealer for similar money.

And that's the problem. Pontiac has traded a bunch of customers who liked the Grand Prix and bought them for a bunch of customers who like the G8, but won't.

Cause you cant get a G8 with HUD. :lol:


:cry:
If Pontiac is like BMW and BMW has HUD, and Pontiac *had* HUD, why dont they still have HUD? :cry:

There seems to me to be some evidence that what people say they want out of Pontiac and what people actually buy from Pontiac are two different things.
Pontiac has two core customer bases. The big one is mostly younger and female and wants "sporty". The one that's represented here is older and male and wants "muscle".

Problem that GM doesn't really have the money to make them both completely happy.

Pontiac has two core customer bases. The big one is mostly younger and female and wants "sporty". The one that's represented here is older and male and wants "muscle".

Problem that GM doesn't really have the money to make them both completely happy.

I don't think that anything other than maybe the return of the Firebird would make the "muscle" set completely happy (and they'd probably gripe even then).

It's always "well I would buy a Solstice...but." Or "I'd get a G8 if it had come out a year ago" or "It's not the GTO I wanted."

I'd say Pontiac has one core customer base and then a fanatical smaller fan group for the muscle stuff. It's too bad, but seems to be true, and mostly always has been.

"Wow, that GTO is amazing, but I can only afford this 326 Tempest that looks mostly like it, eh, good enough..."

Problem now is, that there's no "near enough" car corresponding to anything. Nobody says "I'd love to have that G8 GT I can't afford, but this G5 is really close, so, OK!"

Problem now is, that there's no "near enough" car corresponding to anything. Nobody says "I'd love to have that G8 GT I can't afford, but this G5 is really close, so, OK!"

G5 Coupe - G6 Coupe - G8 Coupe
G5 Sedan - G6 Sedan - G8 Sedan

Not at all the same. They do look a little similar though. For me the big thing is that pontiac doesnt know who it is anymore. They dont have the budget or the management commiting to "poor man's BMW". They dropped the names of vehicles - but BMW's "M3" means a lot more than "G8" and there isnt any histoery to back up the credentials on paper.

*sigh*

Maybe if gas prices and the economy werent in the dump GM would have the elbow room to push a few more products pontiac's way. One can only hope I guess. Well, that and enough elbow room to actually do some aggressive marketing.

G5 Coupe - G6 Coupe - G8 Coupe
G5 Sedan - G6 Sedan - G8 Sedan.

I'm a little confused since there is no G8 coupe and no G5 sedan in the U.S. (Canada has one, though)?

Not at all the same. They do look a little similar though..

G8

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2008_pontiac_g8-thumb.jpg

G5

http://blogs.cars.com/photos/uncategorized/pontiacg51.jpg

How similar do those two look?

1968 LeMans

http://www.adealsauto.com/sitebuilder/images/68_Pontiac_14-420x309.jpg

1968 GTO

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2350747730_b2df3828c7.jpg?v=0

Now, how similar do these look?

If you aspired to a G8 would you say the G5 was "close enough"?


For me the big thing is that pontiac doesnt know who it is anymore. They dont have the budget or the management commiting to "poor man's BMW". They dropped the names of vehicles - but BMW's "M3" means a lot more than "G8" and there isnt any history to back up the credentials on paper.

*sigh*.

I pretty much fully agree with everything you say here.

How similar do those two look?

Now, how similar do these look?

If you aspired to a G8 would you say the G5 was "close enough"?


Compared to the GTO and Lemans, the "G cars" look nothing alike. But Pontiac has made its styled grille standard on every model. Heck, most manufacturers do that now. It really annoys me. BMW is the same way - the 1, 3 and 5 series look *very* similar. But you wouldnt "aspire" to a 5 series and get a 3 series.

The only "aspiration" option would be to make a G8 Coupe with v6 and v8. Then give another G8 coupe the HSV bodywork and powertrain, and then call it a "GTO". But you'd need to make it distinctly more than a G8 - and while that worked for the LeMans, I dont know if that could be done today.

Compared to the GTO and Lemans, the "G cars" look nothing alike. But Pontiac has made its styled grille standard on every model. Heck, most manufacturers do that now.

Pontiac has been doing this for roughly 40 years. Regardless of whether the rest of the car looks anything like it's siblings, the shape and general style of the twin grille has remained relatively consistent across the model line. However, if you look at a 1965 Tempest/LeMans/GTO and a 1965 Executive/Catalina/2+2 they are essentially "little" and "big" versions of the exact same styling


It really annoys me. BMW is the same way - the 1, 3 and 5 series look *very* similar. But you wouldnt "aspire" to a 5 series and get a 3 series.

I kind of see your point here, but most of the people who are considering these can afford all three, so it's a little different kind of argument. Most people who buy a 3 want a 3 - the pretty much most revered "driver's car" in the world. BMWs bigger problem is that no one wants 5s!

The only "aspiration" option would be to make a G8 Coupe with v6 and v8. Then give another G8 coupe the HSV bodywork and powertrain, and then call it a "GTO". But you'd need to make it distinctly more than a G8 - and while that worked for the LeMans, I dont know if that could be done today.

And therein lies the problem. One that I unfortunately find unlikely to be solved with GMs current resources. Back then, they'd just make a performance version (GTO) of a regular car (Tempest/LeMans). Now they give you an economy model or a performance model and they're completely different cars.

You know, if they had actually done something sporty with this car it just might have worked. Something like the British old Mini's Those cars look tiny but yet they do all kinds of neat things with them. It wouldnt have been a subcompact econo rebadge trying to pass itself as sporty.

I just dont get what is sporty about this. Its a Pontiac Metro with a split grille. I get that it will be a volume car for Pontiac and it gets good gas milege, but dont you think someone who would consider it wouldnt go buy an Aveo? Is it worth completely destroying the Pontiac Sports car reputation? Thats not what I thought the Pontiac badge was supposed to be.

I wonder if SLP will make a "Firehawk" model? :rolleyes: