Markets in turmoil DJIA down over 500 points

Dows largest one day percentage drop since July 19, 2002. Lehman Bros declares bankruptcy. They have been around for 156 years. American International Group, the countries largest insurance company is down 60% today to close at just over $5. How will this affect the big 3s (US) $25 billion low cost loan from the Fed? Pressure is on to lower interest rates at the Fed meeting tomorrow. GM stock went down 12%. All this and crude oil is down about $7/bbl to around $96/bbl.

listen buddy, nobody around here wants to hear this doom and gloom news! you better find something positive to post. everything is great!!!


:lol::lol:


the head in the sand crew is going to slam you.

listen buddy, nobody around here wants to hear this doom and gloom news! you better find something positive to post. everything is great!!!


:lol::lol:


the head in the sand crew is going to slam you.

It's not about having your head in the sand, the question is what is complaining about it going to do? Absolutely nothing.

It's not about having your head in the sand, the question is what is complaining about it going to do? Absolutely nothing.

:lol: But you complain about people discussing it. Discussion is not the same as complaining. There is a lot we can do, put our money in safe investments or ones that take advantage of this type of market. Write your congressman and tell them we need to end the Federal Reserve, the bubble and inflation makers.

Keeping this conversation relevant to AN/FV...

It should be "interesting" to see what effect this has on GM, who is trying to get some additional capital (i.e. big loans - 'bout $10B worth) before the end of the year. Assuming that funds are available, the cost of borrowing that money surely has gone up in the past couple of days.

If the federal not-a-bailout loan package doesn't come through prior to the election, then GM could be in huge trouble.

:lol: But you complain about people discussing it. Discussion is not the same as complaining. There is a lot we can do, put our money in safe investments or ones that take advantage of this type of market. Write your congressman and tell them we need to end the Federal Reserve, the bubble and inflation makers.

You are spot-on there bud.
It would be the best thing we could do, and it would be the worst thing we could do at the same time. It would get us out from under the monetary control of a private group of bankers who "print money to make it" - something called "counterfeiting" if any other person or group in the USA does it, but OK for them.
However, it would cause the US Dollar to fall against everything else in the world and could cause a huge upheaval for a while. So long as we kept our dollar tied to something tangible - like gold - we would pull out of any depression the rollover would cause. Accounting for all the printed currency that is already out there and having enough gold (or whatever tangible asset) to back the cash with is another story.

I would go 100% for eliminating the Fed Res from our monetary system.

Another thing we can all do is GET OUT OF DEBT.
Every one of the problems listed in the first post can be directly related to debt - public or private. Mortgages. Trade deficit - you name it.
If we will start living according to our means, we will start to affect the markets. Once we have our finances in order, we start putting people in offices to do the same for our local, state, and federal governments.

And PLEASE - STOP BUYING JUNK. The only thing worse than being in debt is going into debt to buy junk from overseas. Go to WalMart, buy a platic lawn ornament for halloween that was made in China, and put it on your Visa card... :rolleyes: I will see it happen just as sure as I'm breathing.

WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Discussion like this is how to start it - grass-roots style.

And if there is a single body reading these posts on this board that IS NOT REGISTERED TO VOTE, you better go to your local library and get it done ASAP.
You have NO VOICE if you don't use it.

:lol: But you complain about people discussing it. Discussion is not the same as complaining. There is a lot we can do, put our money in safe investments or ones that take advantage of this type of market. Write your congressman and tell them we need to end the Federal Reserve, the bubble and inflation makers.

I've tried having conversations with you in the past, but you ignore people who don't agree with you. You only like to respond to those who follow your mantra.

Safe investments? . . yeah, like that's not the same advice anybody could get from an economics class or their uncle. Take advantage of the market? . . . yeah, every talking head on the news has said the same thing. Ending the Federal Reserve? . . . only in the minds of you and Ron Paul buddy. Aint going to happen, no matter how much you want it to. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it isn't going to happen.

And the downward spiral continues with AIG....

Ending the Federal Reserve? . . . only in the minds of you and Ron Paul buddy. Aint going to happen, no matter how much you want it to. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it isn't going to happen.

Probably not because Americans are willing to take it up the _____ as long as they have affordable gas, cable TV, and cold beer.

It won't be until it is too late that we do something. But you have to start somewhere. Have you seen this movie yet? = http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&ei=BL3PSJqpBo-srQLO0dTcAg&q=money+as+debt&hl=en Money as Debt.

Back to autos, Can GM survive if the American automarket shrinks to 13 million units a year? I almost think the big 3 could do well if gas stayed low (under $4) for 2-3 years to give them enough time to get 40mpg and plug-in and hybrids cars out. Then if prices rise they have an entire new segment of cars to sell and won't have to compete as much with used cars because there almost are no 40mpg cars in the USA.

Rick Wagoner was just interviewed on CNBC and was saying how important it is for GM to get the $25 billion low cost loans approved to US auto manufacturers and their suppliers before Congress breaks in 2 weeks. He said it has been approved but not funded. When asked what is the number one thing on consumers minds when purchasing a vehicle, he responded fuel mileage has been for months, but the recent turmoil in the financial markets causing the tightening of credit is coming on strong.

so if Fannie Mae and Freddie mac didn't get the bail out and then lehman brothers went under do you think we be in a lot worse economic trouble?

i notice a story that said stock markets across the world took a hit from the lehman brothers filling for bankruptcy.

Private bailout of AIG now dead. Will the feds blink and come to the rescue?

The sky is falling... the sky is..........


thud!

I will contribute to the discussion with the obligatory :freakout:.

Rick Wagoner was just interviewed on CNBC and was saying how important it is for GM to get the $25 billion low cost loans approved to US auto manufacturers and their suppliers before Congress breaks in 2 weeks. He said it has been approved but not funded. When asked what is the number one thing on consumers minds when purchasing a vehicle, he responded fuel mileage has been for months, but the recent turmoil in the financial markets causing the tightening of credit is coming on strong.

I see a business man that sees low-cost loans... period.
I'd love to see them get help IF THEY USE IT RIGHT.
Throwing $25B at a problem that is not SOLVED is simply throwing $25B into the pockets of those looking to ride until the lights go out. NOT what I'd like to see my tax-dollars going towards right now. :no:

I also have a problem with the government being the ones offering the loans right now. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER... THEY ARE BROKE!!!!
The ofer should come from private investors who stand to gain more by keeping the big 3 going and having working people pay taxes and buy white and hard goods from local dealers and stores... buying new homes... buying stuff for their kids and grandkids. I look at it as spending $2 today to get $2 every year for the next 10 years... it should be in their (the private finaciers) interest to do it.

My .02 (interest-free today!).

The sky is falling... the sky is..........


thud!


Sky is falling? :think:

I actually wonder what could happen next that could possibly be worse.

Consider that we already have the biggest deficit in US history. A deficit that had actually doubbled in 7 years.

Then, on top of that deficit, we are continuing to dump billions more US taxpayer money into Iraq (not counted towards the budget). Then the taxpayer bailout of Fannie & Freddy is billions if not eventually trillions more (also not counted towards the budget). We sent bailed out another investment firm a few weeks ago (billions more not counted towards the budget).

Keep in mind, all this stuff YOU are going to pay for.

Now, imagine that a major US bank... not a investment firm that caters to the rich or corperations, a bank like Bank America, or Chase Bank, US Bank... someplace where you keep YOUR own savings.... needs a federal bailout. Think the Feds will agree to it?

Doubt it.

What happens then? Everyone rushes to the bank to withdraw all their cash, and the bank crashes.

Your money is insured to $100,000, right?

Maybe.

Banks must be at a certain state of liquity for the insurence to be paid out. If through fraud or other deceptive accounting practices they don't meet that level, FDIC is void and just like when Enron caved in, sure people will go to jail, but just like Enron, you lose your money. Banks don't just cave in overnight, so if one reached that point, something funny went on.

Even if FDIC does cover your losses, how long is it before you get your money back? Are you going to open another account elsewhere so you can deposit your paycheck? Are you capable of basically living paycheck to paycheck till months (or longer) when you finally do get your money back?

If thyat bank failue, and stories about it going to lead other people to pull money out of banks? What happens then? Do other banks begin failing?

What happens as the economic mess ballons the deficit? Bank failures create a ripple effect across the economy that drawf the ripple effect the housing crash has had to date.

Say, China, who continues to buy up our deficit, sudden decides to flex it's muscle and threaten to stop buying up our debt and immediately demands payment on a portion of the total bonds and securities it holds unless we do what it wants (say legislation that helps China double or triple the volume of goods it sells here or even approval of a purchase of weapons).

If the US defalts and refuses to pay up, the country's economic system is toast due to the government ending up bankrupt. The US dollar will be all but worthless, the price of all imports (including oil) will immediately blast well into the stratosphere (a 75% drop in the value in the US dollar means gas go immediately from $4 to $7 per gallon in an extremely short amount of time). A jump in oil imports alone sends anything that needs to be transported into the stratosphere not to mention wiping out a majority chunk of the US airline industry & automotive industry, utility bills shoot to the moon.

1 of every 3 people lose jobs, with a massive amount of people unemployed, state and federal unemplyment insurence is depleted and folds, wages plunge because there is a massive surplus of people willing to work for a fraction of the wages a position used to command. The feds suspend the minimum wage law to help business get people to work, and pretty soon, we're pretty much on the same economic level as Mexico and other south and central American countries. Canada, which has to date had been actively encouraging US citizens to migrate, reverses itself as the influs drains it's economy and puts pressure on wages.

Now, THATS a "Sky is falling" scenario....

....trouble is, it's extremely plausable.

I've been occasionally buying Euros and Australian dollars and putting in my safety deposit box, though.... just in case. ;)

If the US defalts and refuses to pay up, the country's economic system is toast due to the government ending up bankrupt. The US dollar will be all but worthless, the price of all imports (including oil) will immediately blast well into the stratosphere (a 75% drop in the value in the US dollar means gas go immediately from $4 to $7 per gallon in an extremely short amount of time).

Sorry I have to correct your math, 75% drop = $16 dollar gas. This is a real problem for American drivers. Even if demand destruction lowers the price of oil the declining dollar could bring that price right back up.


I've been occasionally buying Euros and Australian dollars and putting in my safety deposit box, though.... just in case. ;)

Gold trumps fiats, even better fiats, in bad times. ;)

Gold trumps fiats, even better fiats, in bad times. ;)

Guns, ammo, a generator, fuel, and a few acres to plant is even better :)

Guns, ammo, a generator, fuel, and a few acres to plant is even better :)

Can I come live with you if I buy some guns, plenty of ammo, and bring several barrels of fuel? :D

So long as we kept our dollar tied to something tangible - like gold - we would pull out of any depression the rollover would cause. Accounting for all the printed currency that is already out there and having enough gold (or whatever tangible asset) to back the cash with is another story.

Realize that gold isn't any more inherently valuable that green paper spewing out of the federal reserve. Our "wealth" is natural and human output and any currency we use as a trading mechanism is based on a "collective delusion" that it's substitute for what actually matters and is worth something.

The problem is that there's simply not enough gold to represent the output of the American economy. So sure if we were on a gold standard, Lehman Bros would still be in business. On the other hand, you would still be living in your great granddad's mud hut. How many Camaros do you think GM would sell to mud hut dwellers? ;)

At least you gold bugs are thinking about things. But it's funny that it really bothers people when they finally understand our economy is built on bullpucks. Look at your belly, look at your car, and realize that it works.

Realize that gold isn't any more inherently valuable that green paper spewing out of the federal reserve. Our "wealth" is natural and human output and any currency we use as a trading mechanism is based on a "collective delusion" that it's substitute for what actually matters and is worth something..
.
.
At least you gold bugs are thinking about things. But it's funny that it really bothers people when they finally understand our economy is built on bullpucks. Look at your belly, look at your car, and realize that it works.

Gold has been working stable money for 5,000 years. Federal Reserve Notes have lost 95% of their value since 1913. Big difference in the two "currencies". But fundamentally you are right. They are both just forms of IOU. The day Gold fails I would expect us to be in an "I am Legend" or "Mad Max" type of world.

Guns, ammo, a generator, fuel, and a few acres to plant is even better :)

You are SO RIGHT, in more ways than you know. Can't eat gold, and can't kill meat with a gold brick either. :cool:

We as an economy are not far from seeing the first signs of catastrophic failure mode.
When people start STEALING FOOD to feed their hungry families... we better take note. When people start breaking into homes for food or survival supplies... pandamonium will not be far behind. It is not so far-fetched either. EXACTLY this complacent attitude and the "It'll never get that bad" mentality is what made the great depression so bad. People were in denial even as banks were locking doors. When they found out the numbers in their passbooks for savings accounts were simply ink on paper and now worthless, it was too late.

As for what you said in your short post...
I have an 8800W generator/welder that is 1-year old in the basement, wired and ready to run the house as-needed - even 220V appliances like the heat pump and clothes dryer if needed. About 10 plastic storage jugs of gas loaded with fuel stabilizer. I live on 65 acres, about 10 of which is tillable fields. We had a good garden this year - canned and frozen veggies for sure. We take about 14 deer every year to fill our freezers, I just cleaned 10 doves Monday night, I will be squirrel hunting in October, and fishing as soon as deer season goes out - I KNOW how to kill or catch, and clean meat. I have a healthy selection of "sporting weapons" from which to choose, and a substantial supply of rounds for each.:yes: (Let's put it this way - I buy .22 rounds not by the box (50), not by the brick(500), but by the case... that's 10,000 at a time. I load my own shotgun shells and pistol cases and I have plenty of supplies on-hand. In fact, we just bought about $100 worth of reloading supplies to prepare for dove season in August.

In other words, I'm not "unprepared" for any such economic downturn should it go to the extreme. My only problem for long-term sustainment is the electrical power - a generator won;t last forever even if you have endless fuel. I am looking at solar power very seriously right now. May wish I had acted sooner.

If nothing happens - GREAT! But if the power goes out for a week due to an ice storm (like we had back in 2003), I'm ready to use the generator. I'm still saving money by canning and freezing goods and it also teaches my daughter some great lessons about how life "used to be long ago" according to her!
Bottom-line - I am fairly-well prepared for whatever may come, but it is not because I am a "doomsdayer", just that I am a practical person. I certainly hope things begin to turn around and get better for us all, but if they don't, I'm already WAY down the road towards preparedness.

Realize that gold isn't any more inherently valuable that green paper spewing out of the federal reserve. Our "wealth" is natural and human output and any currency we use as a trading mechanism is based on a "collective delusion" that it's substitute for what actually matters and is worth something.

The problem is that there's simply not enough gold to represent the output of the American economy. So sure if we were on a gold standard, Lehman Bros would still be in business. On the other hand, you would still be living in your great granddad's mud hut. How many Camaros do you think GM would sell to mud hut dwellers? ;)

At least you gold bugs are thinking about things. But it's funny that it really bothers people when they finally understand our economy is built on bullpucks. Look at your belly, look at your car, and realize that it works.

I don't disagree with you about the currency situation at all. I do disagree with you a little bit about the gold issue. It is one of the most rare natural metals, it never oxidizes or disintegrates, it is the best electrical conductor in natural form, and it is hypnotizing to look at en-masse. It will hold some trading/bartering value into the future indefinitely IMO, making it better than a piece of paper or a zinc-die-cast coin that is plated to be sure.

In the end though, if the absolute worst economic collapse were to happen, Eric Bryant is right. Guns and ammo would be the most sought-after commodities by far. You could trade boxes of ammo for anything from food to clothing. Just such a scenario is rolled-out in this fictional novel written by Rawles, called Patriot (http://www.amazon.com/Patriots-Surviving-James-Wesley-Rawles/dp/156384155X). I read this book about 4 years ago and found it to be very interesting. In the book, there is a financial collapse of the economy which sends the entire US into survivalist mode. A group of "doomsdayers" that has planned for such an event are taken through their voyage to their secluded retreat, the trials and tribulations of "existing" for a few years while civilization restores itself, and the new world that emerges on the other side of the collapse. It is a bit too cheesy at times, giving way too much detail about makes and models of things, sizes and colors of things, etc, but I simply overlooked those aspects and tried to draw on the theme instead. Sometimes the detail was good, like explaining how the financial markets failed and how the government was trying to restore order to the land.
During the book, the author does a really nice job justifying the things that will have significant value in such a scenario, and bullets were the top of the list - even more than guns because bullets are consumable, whereas guns will last for 100 years if properly treated and maintained.
The book is a decent read for $15 if any of you like fiction/survivalist type reading.

I can guarantee one thing for sure... a US $1 bill will only be useful to start fires with in a complete fall-out. I'd rather have gold than paper, and I'd rather have bullets than gold.

So there's my radical thought for the day.
Geez... this really is a morbid thing to discuss, isn't it?
Not really my thing, but I guess it deserves some mental investment none the less.

Back to reality... with the Fed printing more USD's to cover bailouts and dropping the interest rate by another .25, you can count on the dollar falling against everything else in the world. Certainly not moving in the right direction. :no:

I understand and appreciate your posts. I have tried to work towards "preparedness" myself. However, I fear that, should it come to the total melt-down you fear, the "unprepareds" will outnumber the "propareds" by 10,000 to 1. In this case, I fear it would be difficult, if not impossible, to remain a viable civilization for more than a few months. I can only protect my property from just so many; if I am outnumbered 100 to 1 by the hungry hoardes then I have no chance of taking advantage of my "preparedness."

Now, imagine that a major US bank... not a investment firm that caters to the rich or corperations, a bank like Bank America, or Chase Bank, US Bank... someplace where you keep YOUR own savings.... needs a federal bailout. Think the Feds will agree to it?

Doubt it.

What happens then? Everyone rushes to the bank to withdraw all their cash, and the bank crashes.

Your money is insured to $100,000, right?

Maybe.

Banks must be at a certain state of liquity for the insurence to be paid out. If through fraud or other deceptive accounting practices they don't meet that level, FDIC is void and just like when Enron caved in, sure people will go to jail, but just like Enron, you lose your money. Banks don't just cave in overnight, so if one reached that point, something funny went on.

Even if FDIC does cover your losses, how long is it before you get your money back? Are you going to open another account elsewhere so you can deposit your paycheck? Are you capable of basically living paycheck to paycheck till months (or longer) when you finally do get your money back?

If that bank failue, and stories about it going to lead other people to pull money out of banks? What happens then? Do other banks begin failing?

What happens as the economic mess ballons the deficit? Bank failures create a ripple effect across the economy that drawf the ripple effect the housing crash has had to date.



You're on the money there bud (pun intended).

IndyMac recently defaulted out there in California, costing the FDIC about $8.9-Billion so far in the resulting claims.

A quote from an article with the chairwoman of the FDIC directly - "The fund, which is marking its 75th anniversary this year with a "Face Your Finances" campaign, is at $45.2 billion — the lowest level since 2003. At the same time, the number of troubled banks is at a five-year high."

I also found an article 2 days ago that claims the FDIC has about $50-billion in assets that are being used to cover an estimated $1-Trillion in consumer account value. I'm not seeing how that is... 1) allowable by law, 2) allowable by common sense, or 3) going to work.

Interested in reading more or a link to the articles - go here (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624495&page=16)... no need doubling-up on the typing.

You know, it's going to become hard as Hel_l_ to get a car loan soon. I'm thinking we might need to start looking at the GM points, GMAC, Ford Credit, and other programs that are looming precariously on the horizon. GM and Ford might have more of a problem ahead than designing and building cars people want to buy... but ones they can actually QUALIFY to buy too. :eek:

I understand and appreciate your posts. I have tried to work towards "preparedness" myself. However, I fear that, should it come to the total melt-down you fear, the "unprepareds" will outnumber the "propareds" by 10,000 to 1. In this case, I fear it would be difficult, if not impossible, to remain a viable civilization for more than a few months. I can only protect my property from just so many; if I am outnumbered 100 to 1 by the hungry hoardes then I have no chance of taking advantage of my "preparedness."

Very true points. Advantage goes to those in the outlying areas where both population density and distance to metro-centers are benefits. I know for certain that many of the "old timers" that live around my farm are about as equipped for survival as I am. Many growing up as kids in the depression years remember what it was like and know how to improvise and make-do with bare essentials.

It's not really any of my neighbors or local folk that would come hoarding and pilliaging as most of them have basements full of canned foods and preserves and such anyway. It's the folks who live day-to-day from a grocery store or restaurant that will come hungry first. Also, I think my neighbors and I have a pretty good way of helping look out for each other. As long as we could communicate - I'd go running to help them if needed to deter thieves or vandals.

But yes - your point is 100% valid for those living in highly populated areas. The biggest, most powerful gang will rule very quickly. (Rawles covered that in his book I linked to pretty well too BTW.)
There IS a choice in where you choose to live and how. :yes:

And we do live outside the city... just not far enough for much comfort. My immediate neighbors are salt-of-the-earth folks that I believe I could trust to watch my back (as I would theirs). Interestingly, much of the land surrounding our property has, over the past several years, been purchased by one Mr. Aubrey McClendon (Co-founder and CEO of Chesapeake Energy). He has converted most of the surrounding farmland into his "Arcadia Farms" tree farm. My wife guessed it has something to do (eventually) with the whole carbon-credits deal.

And the rich get richer, right?

Gold has been working stable money for 5,000 years. Federal Reserve Notes have lost 95% of their value since 1913. Big difference in the two "currencies". But fundamentally you are right. They are both just forms of IOU. The day Gold fails I would expect us to be in an "I am Legend" or "Mad Max" type of world.

The value of gold is not at all stable -- it swings widely, far more so than the US Dollar or Euro or other paper currency. In a hyper-inflation scenario, gold is better than nothing. But in normal economic times it doesn't make for all that good of a currency.

And you're right about the inflation of Federal Reserve notes -- that is by design to encourage productive investment, which gives us all jobs and has increased our standard of living immensely. Otherwise wealthy people would just hoard their gold in a vault and we would all be serfs.

And all this Mad Max talk about guns and bunkers is really ridiculous, and IMO a juvenile sci-fi fantasy. Even during the Great Depression there weren't roving armed gangs running around stealing food. We may be going into the most serious recession since the early 80s, but the likelihood of a total societal breakdown is minuscule.

And all this Mad Max talk about guns and bunkers is really ridiculous, and IMO a juvenile sci-fi fantasy. Even during the Great Depression there weren't roving armed gangs running around stealing food. We may be going into the most serious recession since the early 80s, but the likelihood of a total societal breakdown is minuscule.


Sigh.... I and I so wanted to say "I'm coming and hell's coming with me!"

You know, it's going to become hard as Hel_l_ to get a car loan soon. I'm thinking we might need to start looking at the GM points, GMAC, Ford Credit, and other programs that are looming precariously on the horizon. GM and Ford might have more of a problem ahead than designing and building cars people want to buy... but ones they can actually QUALIFY to buy too. :eek:

Yep, I've stated this in previous posts in the past few weeks, some of the big auto-industry consultants say the same thing, and hell, even GM's CFO Fritz Henderson pretty much 'fessed-up this week that the credit situation is worse than the fuel price situation :eek:

BTW, you and I gotta hang out someday :thumb:

And all this Mad Max talk about guns and bunkers is really ridiculous, and IMO a juvenile sci-fi fantasy.

Having seen what happens during natural disasters and social unrest in the past couple of decades, a bit of common-sense preparedness is another but a "juvenile sci-fi fantasy". There's a practical limit to all of this, of course - but being able to keep the lights on and your family feed for a week or so ain't exactly a waste of time or money.

You know…I’ve been reading “doom and gloom” predictions about how the U.S. (and then shortly thereafter or shortly before the world) economy is going to completely fail and society will completely break down…I suspect that if you go back even a century or two you’ll find similar predictions; they may even go back about as far as there have been recorded history and “economies” existed

I’m not discounting the pain some (hardly all) the people are feeling right now nor am I saying that our economy doesn’t have problems but to think people are going to be rioting in the street anytime soon is a bit over the top.

I think part of the problem is that there are so many people in their 20’s or 30’s who have never lived through a true recession…a true economic downturn…that they don’t even know what one looks like …what we are seeing at the moment is more of a burp than an convulsion.

Things may get worse before they get better and yes, things could go straight into the toilet but I truly expect things to turn around (and I invest with that mindset as well).

As to credit being a problem for the auto industry…absolutely true…the industry press has been saying so for a while now. Although, I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing…it makes it tough on the industry but consumers being forced to not buy new quite so often or having to put down more cash into the deal is not a bad thing for a person’s financial health…it’s inconvenient and it isn’t what people have gotten used in over the past two or three decades but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not ultimately a good thing.

Guns, ammo, a generator, fuel, and a few acres to plant is even better :)

Anyone who has spent any time in Houston over the past week would tend to agree with this.

Guns.............. check.
Lots and lots of ammo............... check.

Ok, I'm ready. :D

He who has the guns and ammo, can get anything he wants or needs.

However, I do agree that this is a bit over the top. I also agree that alot of the panic is due to people having no real idea what a REAL recession is. Us old people (I'm 44 with a 6-year-old........... that qualifies me as old. LOL) have seen the bad. The younger old people, like myself, may not remember it quite as well (class of 82), but we do remember gas rationing, and lean times.

Call this a blip, or a correction, or what it really is............... alot of companies getting caught with their pants down.

And this too, shall pass.

Having seen what happens during natural disasters and social unrest in the past couple of decades, a bit of common-sense preparedness is another but a "juvenile sci-fi fantasy". There's a practical limit to all of this, of course - but being able to keep the lights on and your family feed for a week or so ain't exactly a waste of time or money.


Heh, some highly visible places aside, the last time a hurricane did damage in my AO it was little more than an inconvience because we had a generator, but it was interesting to observe the degredation in attitudes as people had to wait to get power restored.

I could understand the frustration of somebody who had been displaced by flooding or a tree getting revenge on a house, but the rest of the herd needed a sore lesson in "Man-up".

There is something bizarre happening in regards to the USD atm... given the US is in financial meltdown how is it that the USD has gained ground against the other currencies of late?

USD/AUD (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=AUD&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/EUR (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=EUR&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/GBP (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=GBP&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/CHF (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=CHF&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

Doesn't make sense! :no:

The interesting part about gas prices, is that they are lower now than in a loong, long time. Just before Ike, our gas was $1.26 per litre (and that was considered quite a drop from $1.40 that it was). During Ike, it went back to $1.40, and today it's at $1.19.

The focus is shifting to the credit crunch, and while it may become more affordable to own a car, finding the loan to buy one may be tricky.

I noticed that people don't talk about gas much anymore, though not surprising, since the collapse of Lehman Bros. and AIG takeover is still on everyone's minds.

The interesting part about gas prices, is that they are lower now than in a loong, long time. Just before Ike, our gas was $1.26 per litre (and that was considered quite a drop from $1.40 that it was). During Ike, it went back to $1.40, and today it's at $1.19.

The focus is shifting to the credit crunch, and while it may become more affordable to own a car, finding the loan to buy one may be tricky.

I noticed that people don't talk about gas much anymore, though not surprising, since the collapse of Lehman Bros. and AIG takeover is still on everyone's minds.

Here in Yadkinville, NC gas was $3.46 the Monday before Ike, it was $4.19 the Friday before Ike hit, and it is still $3.99 today. We had 1 local retailer set their prices at $5.19/gal that Friday afternoon and left it until Sunday.

Our governor has issues 2 rounds of subpoenas to stations across our state that raised their prices as much as $1.80 in 24-hours in some cases. Read the linked article here. (http://www.wxii12.com/news/17497276/detail.html) I buy a decent amount of gas at the 4-Brothers BP they named in the article in this latest round of subpoenas.
"Nine stations in Buncombe, Craven, Cumberland, Guilford, Iredell, McDowell, Montgomery and Yadkin counties are being investigated for possibly selling gas for more than $5.35 and as much as $5.99 per gallon."

I can only hope that this sets off a chain or domino effect in which every step up the chain reveals more and more corruption.
There are finally some store-owners who are willing to start squealing on their suppliers - even though it means losing their sponsorship and retail rights from companies like Texaco, Shell, BP, etc.

Attorney General: Gouging Won't Be Tolerated (http://www.wxii12.com/news/17478107/detail.html)
"The Grand Central Express located on Surrett Drive in High Point was one of the subpoenaed stations. Owner Anita Swink told WXII 12 news that that she was charging $3.89 per gallon on Friday, but raised the price to $5.63 after her supplier charged her $5.33 per gallon for a new shipment."

If she can show documentation that she was charged $5.33/gal for a delivery - the state should have the delivery company up on charges INSTANTLY. :mad:

This stuff has gone on far too long.

There is something bizarre happening in regards to the USD atm... given the US is in financial meltdown how is it that the USD has gained ground against the other currencies of late?

USD/AUD (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=AUD&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/EUR (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=EUR&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/GBP (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=GBP&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

USD/CHF (http://www.chartflow.com/chartGen/lineChartGen.asp?ccy1=USD&ccy2=CHF&days=365&sz=700x450&sys=oz)

Doesn't make sense! :no:
Because we are dragging the rest of the world down with us. The dollar isn't going up, everything else is coming down.

Hey, lets look at the bright side................ we were the first one to crash, so we should be the first to recover.

Woohoo !!!!

BTW, the gas price BS is just that.............. BS. Our prices in town didn't change at all, and they shouldn't have. We get no gas from the Gulf region. Rather, we get ours from refineries in Western NM and SW Colorado.

Damn, I'm gone a couple days to haul a car (Nissan GT-R) and everyone has gone into survival mode. Well, the Dow dropped another 450 points Wed., so bring it on. I would think an old fire truck would be worth the investment. 500 gallons of water that is mobile is well worth the cost of an older small fire truck (pumper). I hope I'm not around to see the day where armored vehicles and automatic weapons rule the streets of America.

Having seen what happens during natural disasters and social unrest in the past couple of decades, a bit of common-sense preparedness is another but a "juvenile sci-fi fantasy". There's a practical limit to all of this, of course - but being able to keep the lights on and your family feed for a week or so ain't exactly a waste of time or money.

Sure, I live in earthquake country and have food and water stockpiled, and having some sort firearm isn't necessarily a bad idea. However, buying into some Waco mentality is utterly silly.

Sure, I live in earthquake country and have food and water stockpiled, and having some sort firearm isn't necessarily a bad idea. However, buying into some Waco mentality is utterly silly.

TO BE SURE.
I am in no way saying everyone needs to become survivalists, or take up some wacked-out religious cult for safe-harbor. I think most of us here are taking the sane, inteligent, and not-overeactionary approach.
We're not psycho, just practical. :D

I think Eric said it well. There is nothing wacky about being prepared to sustain yourself and your family for a few weeks in case of ANY emergency - be it natural or man-made.

What I DO THINK is silly/stoopid/dumb is to totally ignore the possibility and be totally unprepared for any disaster because you think it won't ever happen or that some governmental agency will be there to save you when it does. If there's anything we should take from the days of 9/11, Katrina, Andrew and other major occurrences, it's to be prepared.
A lack of preparation is the best invitation for failure.
How far you take your preparations is up to you and your conditions/situation.

For me, it's nothing to shoot a few hundred rounds of .22 on a Saturday afternoon. I've already shot 2 boxes of 12ga shells this week hunting. When deer season comes in, we will burn a few boxes of centerfire shells. So for me to buy ammo or reloading supplies in bulk only makes sense. Then again, I get to walk 3 feet out my back door and shoot anything I have anytime - legally. It would be much different if I lived in a big metropolis where guns are taboo.
So my situation should make my bulk buying and stockpiling of ammo make sense, financially and in reality.

Damn, I'm gone a couple days to haul a car (Nissan GT-R) and everyone has gone into survival mode. Well, the Dow dropped another 450 points Wed., so bring it on. I would think an old fire truck would be worth the investment. 500 gallons of water that is mobile is well worth the cost of an older small fire truck (pumper). I hope I'm not around to see the day where armored vehicles and automatic weapons rule the streets of America.

YUP! You wuz the lynch pin that was keeping us all together! :lol:

You funny! :D

You are right about the water too. A 12-pack or two of personal filters like those that campers carry into the backcountry is a GOOD investment for the shelf as well. :yes:

TO BE SURE.
I am in no way saying everyone needs to become survivalists, or take up some wacked-out religious cult for safe-harbor. I think most of us here are taking the sane, inteligent, and not-overeactionary approach.
We're not psycho, just practical.

Speak for yourself, I have a post apocolyptic mesiah contingency plan ready to go, these guys do pretty good until they run afoul of the feds, and if the feds are out of the way then I see some real job security there. :D

TO BE SURE.
I am in no way saying everyone needs to become survivalists, or take up some wacked-out religious cult for safe-harbor. I think most of us here are taking the sane, inteligent, and not-overeactionary approach.
We're not psycho, just practical. :D

Ok good. ;) Maybe I read a few too many posts in that exxon thread.

Speak for yourself, I have a post apocolyptic mesiah contingency plan ready to go, these guys do pretty good until they run afoul of the feds, and if the feds are out of the way then I see some real job security there. :D

Ok good. ;) Maybe I read a few too many posts in that exxon thread.

COMEDIANS... everywhere I go... :lol:

Outside of the armor-plated Humvee I bought at a military surplus auction for a steal, the urban camo fatigues that were only $10 at the local flea market, and the camo netting I have over the house (to keep the A/C from running so much), you'd never see me as any different from the next guy (in line at the asylum). ;)

PS - You two guys get a pass for free beer at my place after the holocaust. I like y'all! :thumb:

Do you brew your own beer too?

Do you brew your own beer too?

You better start learning how to... Otherwise you'll be stuck with Victory Gin. And fellas tell me it's offensive to the mouth. But you do get used to it in time.

Locked in a nice little profit at the opening bell. I hope you all did the same.

I am still long commodities and will try to hit the timing just right on the financials.

From Bloomberg:

U.S. crude-oil stockpiles fell 6.33 million barrels to 291.7 million barrels in the week ended Sept. 12, the fourth- straight decline, the U.S. Energy Department reported Sept. 17. Gasoline inventories fell 3.31 million barrels, or 1.8 percent, to 184.6 million barrels, the lowest in at least 18 years.

The Wall Street crazy's gave us a gift this morning. Now lets see this so called "plan" the Fed is working on. And do you really believe it is just going to zip on through Congress....

The financial market meltdown mess was nothing a $1 Trillion government backed bailout couldnt handle, which is taxpayers money. One of the analysts on CNBC said that since the little guys (common consumer) caused it by living above their means, ie. bigger house than they can afford and high credit card debt, it seems only fair that they should be the ones paying for it.

The financial market meltdown mess was nothing a $1 Trillion government backed bailout couldnt handle, which is taxpayers money. One of the analysts on CNBC said that since the little guys (common consumer) caused it by living above their means, ie. bigger house than they can afford and high credit card debt, it seems only fair that they should be the ones paying for it.

If it were only that simple. Yes, the bottom line is, people should live within their means. The problem is, living on credit has been sold to the society by banks. The problem is also the banks that were issuing loans KNOWING there is a large chance of default. When you're giving out a $150,000 mortgage to someone who makes $35,000 per year, that's a problem. When you're giving a mortgage to someone who declared bankruptcy recently, that's a problem.

This makes me think of a don who does a favour for someone, only to basically own that person in return.

Hitting at the root of the problem would be best. Blaming this entirely on the populace is another propagandistic tactic to shift the blame away from benevolent banks.

Hitting at the root of the problem would be best. Blaming this entirely on the populace is another propagandistic tactic to shift the blame away from benevolent banks.

Very much agreed. However I would also add "and their greedy boards and management, who made many millions on the backs of us "simple people."

It sounds to me like CNBC is taking a big lesson from the Toyota "blame everything on the consumer," mantra. Yes many people were stupid. However, it was all facilitated, and cheered on, by lenders and credit providers.

The financial market meltdown mess was nothing a $1 Trillion government backed bailout couldnt handle, which is taxpayers money. One of the analysts on CNBC said that since the little guys (common consumer) caused it by living above their means, ie. bigger house than they can afford and high credit card debt, it seems only fair that they should be the ones paying for it.

And I can imagine that this "analyst" probably made a few million this year off of "specualtion" too, aside from their TV/Commentary contract. :rolleyes:
Forgive my sorry butt for actually working for a living and making something tangible instead of using other people's hard work and money to make mine from.:rolleyes:

Maybe this analyst will get his/her pink slip this afternoon because people don't want to hear their lies anymore just like the autoworkers have been getting pink slips because nobody is buying cars. Then they can scramble to pay their 3rd mortgage on their 4th house in the Caymens and see how it feels. :yes:

Typical elitist point of view. At least they had balls enough to say it in public - I'll give 'em that.

At some point, it would be nice to believe that the sheeple, will rise up and start demanding truth in journalism again.

Unfortunately, I don't have alot of faith in the sheeple. They watch all of the pretty commercials that show what a great life you will have, if you just use your M/C more often.............. and believe it. They get the huge mortgage, with the tiny payment, that the mortgage "professional" doesn't completely explain, never read the small print........... and believe that their payment will never go up. They bought the "RE will always appreciate," hook, line, and sinker. They thought that paying off their vehicle, with a home equity loan, actually saved them money. They ran out to buy their 62" plasma TV to replace their perfectly fine 55" TV, because it had 0% for 24 months, without reading the small print, that says payments will be applied to balances with highest interest first.............. and wonder why they got this huge interest charge 2 years later.

No, I don't have much faith in the sheeple.

BTW, you and I gotta hang out someday :thumb:
Next time business brings me your way, I'll call ahead.
If you ever get close to Charlotte, lemme know. :yes:



Having seen what happens during natural disasters and social unrest in the past couple of decades, a bit of common-sense preparedness is anything but a "juvenile sci-fi fantasy". There's a practical limit to all of this, of course - but being able to keep the lights on and your family feed for a week or so ain't exactly a waste of time or money.

NO MORE THAN WE HAD THESE POSTS IN THIS THREAD, THAN I SEE THIS ON Yahoo "MOST POPULAR" today...
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080918/capt.aecfa09e4fbb4c94b93296a8ace01d31.ike_texas_tx ms207.jpg?x=400&y=231&q=85&sig=spa2_6tMiuZV3UUuzLg7gQ--
Caption - "A sign outside of a a house reads ' U Loot I Shoot' as the Campbell family takes out their damaged possessions in the aftermath of Hurricane Ike in Seabrook, Texas, Thursday, Sept. 18, 2008.
(AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez) "

A picture is worth 10,000 words - even if those words are ones of preparedness. :bow:

Seriously, my heart pours out to the folks trying to save anything and rebuild from nothing. I'm helping in many ways from giving money to blood. My thoughts are with these folks.

I read a lot about whats going on, I know it will be bad, but I just never could figure out how bad I thought it would get. I think now I know.

It started with this clip from "This Week" fast forward to 5:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrTwUD6udtk

and then this at 3:05

http://www.goldline.com/media/exclusives/20090919-MAGB.wma

These people in Gov't are all privileged to economic information that we are not and none of them will come out and say in plan English how bad it could be and rightly so, you do not want to spook the public. But what is said in private and what you can read between the lines and get is amazing. I'm starting to agree with Eric Bryant's position, Guns trump Gold :(

edit, found a better second video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZwPkTmqfpg

The rather unsettling part about this law/bill that the congress is trying to pass is that any decisions made by the new mortgage reserve fund are non-reviewable. All deals are to be done privately and no court can review the details of the case.


LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL FOR TREASURY AUTHORITY TO PURCHASE MORTGAGE-RELATED ASSETS

Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

The above was taken from here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,425672,00.html).

GM has been added to the 800 or so companies that are on the no short sales list. We are no longer in a free market situation.

GM has been added to the 800 or so companies that are on the no short sales list. We are no longer in a free market situation.

So basically that list is a list of companies you should not touch with a 1000' pole.

Short sales tend to put downward pressure on a stock because people selling short are hoping/planning on a stock price to fall.

BTW, the gas price BS is just that.............. BS. Our prices in town didn't change at all, and they shouldn't have. We get no gas from the Gulf region. Rather, we get ours from refineries in Western NM and SW Colorado.

Gasoline is a commodity ... it doesn't matter where the specific gas at your filling station came from. Aside from transportation costs, the cost for a commodity in a given region (in our case, pretty much all of North America) will be more or less equal. Our gas prices took a 12% Ike spike too, and we're not even in the same country. The reason is that if prices are high in one location yet lower in another, the profit motive will encourage companies to redirect their supply to the area where the prices are highest. Thus the lower priced areas will begin to experience less supply until the prices all over reach equilibrium.

Short sales tend to put downward pressure on a stock because people selling short are hoping/planning on a stock price to fall.

Yes, but what criteria needs to be met to get on that list. A company that is in very bad shape.

GM has been added to the 800 or so companies that are on the no short sales list. We are no longer in a free market situation.

Let's speculate that GMAC is about to go down in flames.

Just read that some of the bailout money is going to be used to buy up bad auto loans, BTW.

At first, there were 799 financial stocks or companies that bought or sold mortgages or other securities on the list and more were added including GM. Probably GMAC Mortgage got them on the list that is temporary, but can get extended.

Gasoline is a commodity ... it doesn't matter where the specific gas at your filling station came from. Aside from transportation costs, the cost for a commodity in a given region (in our case, pretty much all of North America) will be more or less equal. Our gas prices took a 12% Ike spike too, and we're not even in the same country. The reason is that if prices are high in one location yet lower in another, the profit motive will encourage companies to redirect their supply to the area where the prices are highest. Thus the lower priced areas will begin to experience less supply until the prices all over reach equilibrium.

While the theory of what you say is correct, the actuality is quite different.

While the national average for gas rose, and is still higher than it was before Ike, the price of gasoline in Northern AZ has fallen................. in some cases, alot. Here in Payson, we are at $3.60 for regular, give or take. Yet, in ShowLow (91 miles away), we paid $3.25 for regular, on Saturday night.

Diesel is starting to rise, however. As my husband drives truck, he definitally can follow that. Great................ I haven't seen the price of groceries go down, since diesel fell in price so much.............. and now it is going back up.

So basically that list is a list of companies you should not touch with a 1000' pole.

It's quite a helpful list if you're not unfortunate enough to already be stuck with the stock.

It's quite a helpful list if you're not unfortunate enough to already be stuck with the stock.

LOL!!! :lol:

Sort of like a newspaper... they always tell you what has ALREADY happened, huh?
Be cool if there was a newspaper that told you what was GOING to happen... now THAT would be news!

Wondering... Who do you think that list is most helpful to?