Do gas prices really matter?

Great story I read over the weekend pertaining to the Dodge Challenger, however the same things probably can be said for the 2010 Camaro as well.

http://www.dailypress.com/features/dp-life_autoreview_0909sep09,0,7796723.story

Nice article. I don't know if the car would get as much positive attention in our state. But it would and does get attention. I'm hoping the Camaro is seen as less of a gas pig!

Gas has dropped $1 per gallon here from highs and looks to go further. I was worried about the Camaro and still am but I think if gas will stabilize in the low $3 range. Then some people's gas concerns will fade a bit.

Gas prices? No, they don't really matter. In general, people will pay whatever it costs. As prices rise, sure, some people will (and are) buying more fuel-efficient cars, changing their driving habits, or finding other means of transportation, but those people are in the minority.

Gas availability, though, that matters. We're going to run out of crude oil someday. I don't know when. We have to find an alternative, renewable fuel that is affordable and provides decent range, refueling times, and energy density, and we have to be finished converting to it by that day. If we run out of oil before the conversion is complete, everyone can sit back and watch as the world economy crumbles. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect that the supply of crude already pulled from the ground, plus gasoline and diesel already refined, will only last a few days.

We're going to run out of crude oil someday.

And that day will not happen in your lifetime, or your children's, nor your children's childrens. There are so many sources of fossil fuels on this planet that we haven't even tapped yet it's ridiculous. As the price of oil rises, somoene will figure out a way to get it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternative fuels anyway. But try to remain rational about it.

No I dont think they do. Its simple just cut out some pointless driving. We all do it just cut back a little.

Nice article. I don't know if the car would get as much positive attention in our state. But it would and does get attention. I'm hoping the Camaro is seen as less of a gas pig!

The Challenger R/T has better fuel economy and more power than the G8 GT.

Safe assumption that the manual Camaro SS without the G8's DOD is going to have worse fuel economy than the G8, and therefore worse economy still than the Challenger R/T. The automatic Camaro SS isn't likely to fare better than the G8, and therfore....

Seems the Challenger is having the same wrong image problem with fuel economy the late 4th gens had. :)

Safe assumption that the manual Camaro SS without the G8's DOD is going to have worse fuel economy than the G8, and therefore worse economy still than the Challenger R/T. The automatic Camaro SS isn't likely to fare better than the G8, and therfore....

Seems the Challenger is having the same wrong image problem with fuel economy the late 4th gens had. :)


I believe someone in the know has indicated that the 5th gen will equal/exceed real world mpg results of the 4th gens. So, I wouldn't be too worried.

I believe someone in the know has indicated that the 5th gen will equal/exceed real world mpg results of the 4th gens. So, I wouldn't be too worried.

I can see that. When you look at the re-rated '02 LS1 Camaro, it would have gotten 17/26 w/ the manual, 16/23 w/ the automatic. It was published somewhere that the 5th gen SS would get 23, but I don't recall what transmission it was for. In any case, it's roughly what the LS1 cars got, and we all know they did better than that in the real world. I don't mean to keep bringing up my vette in these discussions, but it ROUTINELY knocks down 31 on the highway, well above it's sticker number. I'm pretty confident the Camaro will do the same (not get 31 highway, but get better than advertised on the sticker).

The Challenger R/T has better fuel economy and more power than the G8 GT.

Safe assumption that the manual Camaro SS without the G8's DOD is going to have worse fuel economy than the G8, and therefore worse economy still than the Challenger R/T. The automatic Camaro SS isn't likely to fare better than the G8, and therfore....

Seems the Challenger is having the same wrong image problem with fuel economy the late 4th gens had. :)

Well the only issue with your arguement is that the LS3 is more in line with the SRT8's 6.1L Hemi in displacement and power. Just form what GM has stated so far the Camaro SS A6 with it's quoted 23 mpg hwy sits far better than the SRT8's A5 mpg of 19 hwy and slightly better than the 22 mpg for the 6M. One would think that the 6M SS could get near or at the A6's mpg levels. That will be up to the driver.

Pontiac lists the G8 GT with it's 6.0L L76 at 15/24 mpg and Dodge lists the R/T with it's 5.7L Hemi at 16/25 auto or manual. So really in a range of 4 mpg hwy. is all that seperates the SRT8, SS, G8 GT and R/T.

It might only be 4 mpg but it's 25% as far as city mileage goes.

Gas prices matter on the non-V8 cars greatly.

People buy Camaros because they either want something fast or cool. If gas is $5 and whats cool is getting good mileage and Camaros are seen as pigs then they will be out of favor. This is where a LNF Camaro could come in and save the day. Same goes for the G8, but they could probably get away with something even smaller like a 200HP1.6L turbo I4. Cool car great mileage. I'd love to have a G8 with 18"s that could get 35mpg hwy.

And that day will not happen in your lifetime, or your children's, nor your children's childrens. There are so many sources of fossil fuels on this planet that we haven't even tapped yet it's ridiculous. As the price of oil rises, somoene will figure out a way to get it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternative fuels anyway. But try to remain rational about it.

The problem doesn't come when we run out of oil, it comes when we have used up half the oil.

Did anyone notice what passersby didn't ask the author while he was testing the Challenger? ;)

I believe someone in the know has indicated that the 5th gen will equal/exceed real world mpg results of the 4th gens. So, I wouldn't be too worried.

I find that hard to believe. My 2000 Z28 A4 would average around 28 mpg on the 500 mile trip round trip to the cottage. I just took my G8 GT up there this weekend and averaged 24 mpg (and this is consistent with what many on the G8 boards are reporting). Given the F5 will have a similar drivetrain to the G8, and probably be within ~100 lb or so in weight, I can't see it making up 4-5 mpg.

I can't see it making up 4-5 mpg.

How close is the gearing?

How close is the gearing?

I don't know, but with both having an A6 they can already manage a large spread so there's not likely much room to go on either end. My rear end is a 2.92, and it turns about 1700 rpm at 70 mph IIRC.

And that day will not happen in your lifetime, or your children's, nor your children's childrens. There are so many sources of fossil fuels on this planet that we haven't even tapped yet it's ridiculous. As the price of oil rises, somoene will figure out a way to get it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternative fuels anyway. But try to remain rational about it.

While I agree we will not run out of crude oil for quite a long time, it's the availability of the oil that will be a problem. We can't drill everywhere on earth. Some places just can't be reached with current technology. As prices go up, it makes the outlying places worth going after, but soon you will get to a point of diminishing returns. In some places it just won't be worth it to drill for oil, at any price.

Gas prices? No, they don't really matter. In general, people will pay whatever it costs. As prices rise, sure, some people will (and are) buying more fuel-efficient cars, changing their driving habits, or finding other means of transportation, but those people are in the minority.


My goodness... how do you figure?!?!

Do you know that most dealership won't even consider taking a big SUV or full-size truck in on a trade now? Large SUV's and superduty-type trucks are going for pennies on the dollar at local auctions. Some of the largest incentives ever offered right now on trucks and suvs - employee pricing AND cash back AND low/no interest loans... they are all but begging people to buy them. Ford delays the F150 launch by 3 months because of inventory of the 2008 models that are sitting everywhere. Sales of small cars like the accord and fusion have gone ballistic - to the point where plants are running around the clock to try to keep up. Sales of the Mini-Cooper have a 6-week backlog. I'd say that is pretty profound.

I simply don't see how you can claim that people changing their habits and buying preferences are in the minority. I'd say it's becoming a pretty profound movement across the country. Certainly it is not going to stop dead in it's tracks, but I'd say the move towards more efficient vehicles is far more than a little fad that will soon pass, and certainly is has affected more than "a minority" to the point of action of some kind.

I was worried about the Camaro and still am but I think if gas will stabilize in the low $3 range. Then some people's gas concerns will fade a bit.
Don't be fooled into thinking that gas prices will ever "stabilize". :no:
Stabilize until... the next hurricane... the next t-bomb goes off in Baghdad... the next cold winter... or when?
This commodity will continue to be one of the most volatile items in the world for the forseeable future (decades). It will go up and down continuously - sometimes by huge amounts, sometimes by small ones, but it will never stabilize again until it is no longer heavily sought-after, and that is not going to happen.

If you are planning your vehicle purchased based on $3/gal is OK, but $4/gal makes the vehicle unattractive, you will be disappointed with your decision in a few months. Moreover, I hope you don't have it financed for 72 or 84 months so that you are so far upside down that you can't sell it or get out of it without losing your shirt.

No matter what you buy, plan on gas doubling every 2-3 years from here on out. If it does - you're OK. If it doesn't, then we can be happy and spend the saved money on mods! :yes: :thumb:

Did anyone notice what passersby didn't ask the author while he was testing the Challenger? ;)

If he could see the road in front of the car?

If he could see past the hood?

If he needed a map to get around inside the car?

If the front bumper and rear bumper had the same zip code?

If he needed a class C license to operate that big rig?

If he knew how to use a Jake-Brake?

If he knew he lost the trailer a few miles back?

If he needed special permits from the highway department to move that house?

If he knew where the bathroom was in there?

If the wife had a separate room for long trips?



OK - Sorry for the dull humor. Just ribbing on the size of the car like some of my buddies in the office here have been doing. You opened the door and I came running.

I'll bite... What's the real deal?

OK - Sorry for the dull humor. Just ribbing on the size of the car like some of my buddies in the office here have been doing. You opened the door and I came running.

I'll bite... What's the real deal?You're close. I was primarily thinking of, "how much does it weigh?" :D

The Challenger R/T has better fuel economy and more power than the G8 GT.

Safe assumption that the manual Camaro SS without the G8's DOD is going to have worse fuel economy than the G8, and therefore worse economy still than the Challenger R/T. The automatic Camaro SS isn't likely to fare better than the G8, and therfore....

Seems the Challenger is having the same wrong image problem with fuel economy the late 4th gens had. :)
Dubious assumptions, Guy.

Challenger R/T is rated 16/25; G8 GT is rated 15/24. That's one MPG difference.

In 2002, the Mustang GT got 16/23 and the Camaro got 17/26 (comparing manual transmission models, updated 2008 ratings according to fueleconomy.gov). Plus, in real-world driving, I'm told that Mustangs actually get pretty close to their EPA ratings, while the Camaro routinely outperforms (I get about 22/28 in mine, and I'm not even remotely light on the throttle).

I believe someone in the know has indicated that the 5th gen will equal/exceed real world mpg results of the 4th gens. So, I wouldn't be too worried.
As I recall, that was the Fbodfather himself.

My goodness... how do you figure?!?!
All of your argument is limited to people buying new cars, who are themselves in the minority. Over 200 million licensed adults in the United States, and total new vehicle sales are what, two or three percent of that?

All of your argument is limited to people buying new cars, who are themselves in the minority. Over 200 million licensed adults in the United States, and total new vehicle sales are what, two or three percent of that?

Most reference may have been about buying new cars because that's where most data is readily available. A bit harder to track Bubba selling his used Suburban to the guy across town for cash money, isn't it? Th reference to what I am seeing at used auto auctions is certainly not new car sales, nor is what I am seeing in the Sunday Classifieds - both of whichindicate that you can buy Escalades and Navigators all day long now at pennies on the dollar for what they were 1 year ago. Again - the market is choking on them because dealers have all the used ones/trade-ins they can handle... they don't want any more used ones on their lots.

Maybe where you live the economy and high-end markets are doing OK, but in Rural NC they are CRAP right now, and I feel quite certain that at least 70-80% of the people living in my county have made substantial changes to their way of life due to gas prices. That includes the car/truck they drive, how often they drive it, riding 4-wheelers/motorbikes, boating... you name it. Riding down any 2-lane highway is like riding down a stretched-out flea market of vehicles and powercraft sitting in yards for sale. Jet skis, Boats, 4-wheelers, ATVs, dirt bikes, cars, trucks... I can never recall such in my many years.

Credit availability is starting to look even more important than fuel economy - and that has some manufacturers really scared. It's one thing to say that the market is going to shrink from 16.5M/year to 13M/year; it's another to say that this will be combined with a credit crunch that makes it difficult or impossible for Joe Six-Pack to get a loan for a $35K vehicle with a yearly income of $45K/year and an upside-down trade-in.

Don't be fooled into thinking that gas prices will ever "stabilize". :no:
Stabilize until... the next hurricane... the next t-bomb goes off in Baghdad... the next cold winter... or when?
This commodity will continue to be one of the most volatile items in the world for the forseeable future (decades). It will go up and down continuously - sometimes by huge amounts, sometimes by small ones, but it will never stabilize again until it is no longer heavily sought-after, and that is not going to happen.

If you are planning your vehicle purchased based on $3/gal is OK, but $4/gal makes the vehicle unattractive, you will be disappointed with your decision in a few months. Moreover, I hope you don't have it financed for 72 or 84 months so that you are so far upside down that you can't sell it or get out of it without losing your shirt.

No matter what you buy, plan on gas doubling every 2-3 years from here on out. If it does - you're OK. If it doesn't, then we can be happy and spend the saved money on mods! :yes: :thumb:


I was looking and made the comment as based upon the Challenager and Camaro and their sales or success based on how current gas prices have cut deeply into vehicles that are not great in mpg.

However, as you have pointed out there are lots of factors against gas prices stabilizing but also for it as well. Even despite hurricanes Gustov and Ike that put a good part of the gas refining business in the gulf out of commission the effect has been only a slight temporary rise on gas/natural gas prices.
The bigger picture is that oil is on a decline. In fact oil dropped below $100 per barrel and is down $55 from it's highs. We were supposed to be nearing $180 per barrel by now if the rumors were true even 4 months ago.
The decline is due to a gaining USD and falling demand here that even with prices dropping is not going up. The news yesterday with Lehman Brothers, AIG and Merrill Lynch show that the economy is certainly not back in order and this should further the decline in oil prices. Although complicated this issue will back back to supply and demand and for now the demand is still going down and is likely to stay that way until the economy here turns the corner. Gas price stabilization at least in the short term isn't out of the question.
I suppose this is all going to be a wash for the Camaro and Challenger as while gas prices will become less of a concern but the real issue is with the credit crisis who can actually afford to buy the cars.

Maybe where you live the economy and high-end markets are doing OK, but in Rural NC they are CRAP right now, and I feel quite certain that at least 70-80% of the people living in my county have made substantial changes to their way of life due to gas prices

Fair enough.

I travel back and forth across Michigan, visiting Grand Rapids, Lansing, Flint, and Detroit (as well as the suburbs of each) pretty routinely. I often visit the rural areas in between, too.

In the areas I frequent, there is definite evidence that the economy is suffering, and yeah, there are more cars for sale than usual, but most of the cars I've seen for sale are still for sale after sitting out there for months.

However, from my perspective, there's just as much traffic as always, and just as many big SUVs and pickups on the road (blocking the view forward in my Camaro :mad:). Parking lots at the grocery stores and the malls are just as crowded.

A friend of mine recently traded in an '04 Impala on an '08 Trailblazer. Another friend sold a Bonneville and bought a used Ranger. The full-size Chevy van that was for sale on a street corner near my house was snapped right up in less than a week, but the Fiero on the opposite corner has been sitting there for months.

That's what it looks like from my perspective.

The point is, although fuel economy and performance go hand in hand and you typically have to sacrifice one to get more of the other, the typical buyer of a performance version of this type of modern-day muscle car, be it a Challenger, Mustang, or Camaro, doesn't really care what kind of mileage it gets, nor how much gas costs to fuel it, nor how much the damn thing weighs. All he or she cares about is whether it looks, sounds and feels cool and performs like a muscle car should in their eyes.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I for one think the new Camaro is a pretty awesome muscle car. I plan to purchase one. That's all that matters to me. :D

However, from my perspective, there's just as much traffic as always, and just as many big SUVs and pickups on the road (blocking the view forward in my Camaro :mad:). Parking lots at the grocery stores and the malls are just as crowded.

What's interesting is that we have periods in our little town of a few thousand when you see absolutely no vehicles on the streets anymore. They are barren. By 7pm on weeknights, there's virtually nothing moving. Used to see lots of locals going out or coming in from dinner at a local diner... not so much anymore.

We have a few small lunch boxes around that serve the blue-plate specials to delivery drivers, constructin crews, local plant workers, etc. that have closed up in the last 6 months - 1 less than a mile from my plant. The one left open has better business by default, but admits that it's not what it used to be.

Regarding the traffic and habits... I still see lots of traffic on the major interstates with lots of out-of-state tags on them. Probably as much as I ever have, and yes - they seem to be flying as they go by! I wonder how many of these are company cars or rentals with a company paying the gas bill? I also see lots of company trucks (electricians, plumbers, flooring, etc) that are still getting abused... jack-rabit starts, running 75 or better on the highway, etc. I guess if they are not responsible for the gas bill... :shrug:

I agree that the trends are spotty, and if we knew the demigraphics better, I think we might find out that the more affluent areas are where the impact is less. More rural and outlying areas that typically house the lower income blue-collar/farmer/self-employed type folks is probably alot more affected and the impact more visible.

The price of gasoline will always matter more to some people than to others.

Well-healed consumers will drive what they feel like driving irrespective of the MPG they get because whether they get 40MPG or 10MPG on their vehicles, fuel costs make up such a small portion of their expenses as a percentage of their income that they simply don’t care.

However, the average young guy or girl or young family struggling to make ends meet are most definitely going to care about fuel costs (and MPG) because it’s a much bigger factor for them…if fuel prices rise significantly, especially quickly, they such folks will really have no choice to find ways to reduce their fuel expenses (smaller/more efficient vehicles and/or alternate fuel vehicles), driving less overall, etc.

In my always humble opinion, there will always be a “market” for niche vehicles such as sports/performance cars. However, there landscape of those who might opt to buy one may well shrink at least a little with every rise in gasoline costs.

Gas prices do matter, but you have to look at the bigger picture. People will always drive no matter the price of gas, simply because they have to drive to get to work, school, activities, etc. Where it matters is how it affects the rest of the economy. If people start paying a lot more per week on gas, they will cut out other things like dining out, shopping, entertainment, etc., so gas prices do matter in the overall health of our economy.

Lets not forget how gas prices mattered to the EV1 and Geo brand

The price of gasoline will always matter more to some people than to others.

Well-healed consumers will drive what they feel like driving irrespective of the MPG they get because whether they get 40MPG or 10MPG on their vehicles, fuel costs make up such a small portion of their expenses as a percentage of their income that they simply don’t care.

However, the average young guy or girl or young family struggling to make ends meet are most definitely going to care about fuel costs (and MPG) because it’s a much bigger factor for them…if fuel prices rise significantly, especially quickly, they such folks will really have no choice to find ways to reduce their fuel expenses (smaller/more efficient vehicles and/or alternate fuel vehicles), driving less overall, etc.

In my always humble opinion, there will always be a “market” for niche vehicles such as sports/performance cars. However, there landscape of those who might opt to buy one may well shrink at least a little with every rise in gasoline costs.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Robert Nashville. There are plenty of people out there that MPG is very important. Most of them are working families. I personally know some of them, the rise in gas prices has really hurt them. Not a pretty picture when you have to choose between driving and food. Of course, many of them wouldn't be in this situation if they hadn't bought a house that is too expensive, cars/SUVs that are too expensive/had to finance too much for, and all the credit cards they have maxed out to try to keep up with the neighbors in useless junk. Most have no one but themselves to blame and now they have to make the tough decisions.

But there are people like me, who have no kids and no one to support. I don't have ridiculous amounts of debt (my house is about it right now) and gas prices don't have much effect on me. I own 3 different cars and work a good paying job. Unless something drastic happened (such as getting laid-off), I really don't need to change my spending to compensate for gas prices. And my current plans are to buy a new Camaro when it comes out, so I can afford a new car payment as well (although I won't be stupid and not put a good down payment on it, or finance it for 7-10 years just to get the payments down).

I think it comes down to living within your means and plenty of people these days just don't do that. They want everything so they put it on credit and say, "I'll just pay it off later." They don't save money because of this and if anything serious happens, they end up in serious financial trouble.

As I recall, that was the Fbodfather himself.


Yes it was. I'll put a lot of faith in what he says regarding our favorite car. :)