Latest Panther replacement news.

The Panther chassis has been given a 1 year reprieve, and is now scheduled to end production after the 2011 model year.... yes, there will be the current Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car for the 2011 model year.

For 2009, Panthers have adjustable pedals & a new brake system as well as standard side airbags (this includes police cars). Don't expect any redesigns or cosmetic updates for Panther's remaining years, though.

As for it's replacement (and there will be one) Ford is in the process of making a final decision between using an front wheel drive based, all-wheel-drive chassis or a variation of the Mustang chassis. This decision affects not just the Panther cars, but has a far reaching affect at Ford.

The decision to switch to FWD/AWD would mean the end to the rear drive Australian Ford Falcon, which would be replaced by a Falcon based on this new chassis. Ford of Australia is still pushing for the RWD chassis, and Alan Mually got a hint of Aussie's preference for RWD during a question and answer period from the Australian press. While at first saying Ford was simply considering it's options, after repeated questions on the subject and trying to defend the idea by saying that greats strides have been made in the performance of AWD, finally quipped to the press "You guys are obsessed with rear wheel drive". Apparently, he had no idea.

The obvious other bit of fallout to the large Fords moving to a FWD/AWD chassis is that would leave the Ford Mustang's chassis an orphan. As such, it would mean that chassis would continue for a very, very long time and would become venerable to future decisionmaker's axes (the single use chassis of the '82 Camaro continued for 20 years before being discontinued).

Although, Alan Mually obviously seemed sold on the idea of using FWD for the next large car platform (effectively killing the ongoing large RWD program that's been ongoing), it seems now that the idea is actually being debated thanks to the Aussie press as well as Ford's Police Advisory Board (provides input on the needs and feedback of law enforcement).

Irony alert:

Alan Mually was so blown away by the Ford Falcon that he apparently had a Falcon FPV GT brought back for his own use (which anyone can do, as long as you don't sell it, and you send it back where it came from or destroy it after a certain time, 2-3 years if I remember correctly).

Final decision on the 2012 Panther replacement should be due within the next few months.

Guy take a look at this.
http://www.carbonmotors.com/

I have more than just a slight passing interest in patrol cars. Seems like there is certainly some interest in a purpose built police cruiser because of what is offered today for that role and then having to convert them into each departments requirements. I think some of this interest comes from Ford's expected intention to cut the Panther Crown Vic eventually and the overall stability in the Domestic brands.

Hey 99?, slightly off topic question for ya. I've noticed that more and more PD's are adopting the Black and White paint scheme for their cruisers. Any particular reason?

I just took at 30min. cab ride at 3am from NYC to New Jersey with 6 passengers plus driver in a Crown Vic and I must say the stretched Crown Vics are pretty roomy. Getting four 6' guys in the back seat is saying something. No other sedan has that kind of rear leg room. I don't know why Ford can't just make a stretched Taurus with a small diesel or hybrid engine to replace the Crown Vics other than they would cost more.

For 2009 only vehicles that get 25mpg city can be NYC taxis, Crown Vics will be phased out by 2012. You already see tons of Escape taxis and even a few Malibu, Altima, and Camry hybrids.

Hey 99?, slightly off topic question for ya. I've noticed that more and more PD's are adopting the Black and White paint scheme for their cruisers. Any particular reason?

Same here. I know of 4 local large police forces that have repainted their cars black and white. I personally don't think they look as good.

Hey 99?, slightly off topic question for ya. I've noticed that more and more PD's are adopting the Black and White paint scheme for their cruisers. Any particular reason?

I'm just guessing, but I'd say it's to make them harder to see at night. That way, speeders won't see them until it's too late. The cops in my area have all switched to black and white, and they're damn near invisible at night.

Hey 99?, slightly off topic question for ya. I've noticed that more and more PD's are adopting the Black and White paint scheme for their cruisers. Any particular reason?

I thought the history of it was just to stand out from other public vehicles. I think since they have found that it may be cheaper and easier for paint and repair. I'd say 9 of 10 departments if not more in CA are black and white. I know back East that isn't the case.

I'm just guessing, but I'd say it's to make them harder to see at night. That way, speeders won't see them until it's too late. The cops in my area have all switched to black and white, and they're damn near invisible at night.

I know growing up in SE MI that many deptartments would buy dark blue or black Crown Vics and Camaros with no lightbar or markings and use them for traffic duty. They are very hard to spot as some didn't even have the bumper guards.

Guy take a look at this.
http://www.carbonmotors.com/

I have more than just a slight passing interest in patrol cars. Seems like there is certainly some interest in a purpose built police cruiser because of what is offered today for that role and then having to convert them into each departments requirements. I think some of this interest comes from Ford's expected intention to cut the Panther Crown Vic eventually and the overall stability in the Domestic brands.

Very interesting. But there's a number of red flags I see here that makes me wonder how far this idea gets, or even how real it is.

First of all, being that as a state, local, or federal government agency that's required to bid on major purchases and then purchase ONLY with specific contracts, I seriously doubt....very, very seriously doubt... that this company already has purchase orders as they claim.

The second item that makes me question the legitamaticy of this is that when someone is starting a company, or even creating a working prototype what is sought is investors. Yet, right there on the front page: "The more PO’s we receive, the sooner we are likely to make it to full-scale production – and the sooner you receive your E7!".........

...... Say WHAT!!!????:shock:

The more purchase orders they get, the sooner I'll get MY E7...... the one that I supposedly sent in a purchase order for already????

OK. Let's say I'm being overly cynical (with my reputation, probably likely).

You look at who's behind this company. It's alot of former Ford employees.

CEO William Santana Li was on the management team (no, not heading) that set up Ford's project AMAZON, the modular plant Ford created in Brazil. His strong point is in getting new operations off the ground... and apparently moving on to something else.

Chief Strategy Officer Andrew B Savarie is a money man. He was a senior managing director at Bears and Sterns.

Chief Development Officer Trevor J Rudderham was product planner at Ford.

Chief Production Officer Alan J Bratt worked manufacturing for Ford.

Chief Financial Officer Keith R Marchiando was in finace at Ford.

The specifications mention 75 mph rear end impact crashability. Ironically, the Crown Vic police car is rear crash tested and passed the 75 mph impact test.

The ad mentions a 3 liter diesel engine (no mention on cylinder count). Ford has a 4 cylinder diesel that is 3 liters called "Duratorq". Ford also has a twin-turbo V6 Diesel in the pipeline that's expected to have the same power output levels as the ad for the Carbon quotes.

The width is suspiciously identical to the Crown Victoria. The wheelbase is also suspicious in that it virturally matches the Lincoln Town Car, which is a LWB version of the Crown Vics. The Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car frame is hydroformed, a relatively cheap and highly flexible way of forming Crown Vic's frame. Would be no problem of reconfiguring for shorter overhangs to fit into a Dodge Charger/Chevrolet Impala-like 200 inch length.

And finally, after doing some reading and internet surfing, the targeted production goal of 2011 is the same time the Ford Crown Victoria and the rest of the Panther cars were originally scheduled to be killed off (it's just been extended 1 year to 2012).

So, turning off my rabid cynical machine, this and the fact that a start up company isn't able to develop their own vehicle and crash test it and pass emissions, etc without it being essentially a rebodied existing car that already has, tells me that a group of former Ford employees plan to get ahold of of the Crown Victoria chassis and components, create a new body and shorter frame based on the Town Car's wheelbase, create their own composite skinned body to sit on top of that, and get ahold of Ford's upcoming twin turbo diesel, and continue selling to law enforcement.

That's just my hunch, though. :)

Guy take a look at this.
http://www.carbonmotors.com/

I have more than just a slight passing interest in patrol cars. Seems like there is certainly some interest in a purpose built police cruiser because of what is offered today for that role and then having to convert them into each departments requirements. I think some of this interest comes from Ford's expected intention to cut the Panther Crown Vic eventually and the overall stability in the Domestic brands.

That's pretty cool right there! I wonder what it would take to make a civilian model?

I'm interested in hearing how they'll hit their target weight of 4000# with a vehicle that big designed for such high crash ratings and torque.

If GM weren't trying to sell off the HUMMER name, then a Hummerfied G8 or G8 wagon would be the perfect cop car. Actually, I think the AWD Hemi Magnum would have been just about perfect for LEO use in any weather.

So, turning off my rabid cynical machine, this and the fact that a start up company isn't able to develop their own vehicle and crash test it and pass emissions, etc without it being essentially a rebodied existing car that already has, tells me that a group of former Ford employees plan to get ahold of of the Crown Victoria chassis and components, create a new body and shorter frame based on the Town Car's wheelbase, create their own composite skinned body to sit on top of that, and get ahold of Ford's upcoming twin turbo diesel, and continue selling to law enforcement.

That's just my hunch, though. :)

So, do you think they could do it?

http://www.carbonmotors.com/

I have more than just a slight passing interest in patrol cars. Seems like there is certainly some interest in a purpose built police cruiser because of what is offered today for that role and then having to convert them into each departments requirements. I think some of this interest comes from Ford's expected intention to cut the Panther Crown Vic eventually and the overall stability in the Domestic brands.

Wow, is that cool.

I wish them success!

So, do you think they could do it?

My biggest question is how they expect to undercut the competition's price. Price is of over riding importance to police agencies with regards to patrol vehicles. Yet, looking at Carbon's website, they seem to promise everything but the kitchen sink in these cars, yet sell at far less than the competition.

They are using the "Dell" method of creating a car, and that's what they are depending on to make it all work. They are basically planning to have everyone else create parts and they will assemble it at their own plant. But creating a car isn't like creating a computer. You have countless 3rd world countries making parts for a computer to keep costs cheap.

These guys are going to have to deal with the same cash strapped automotive suppliers that all US automakers have to deal with.... without the ability to pressure cost reductions via volume (or economics of scale). These suppliers simply won't likely be able to make parts as cheaply for them as they do for the big automakers because there aren't going to be a gazillion parts to spread the cost around.

I agree with Charlie that it's a very cool idea, and it's probally the only way a new car company can get started in this day and age. But, I really don't believe they will be able to undercut a Chevrolet Impala or a Dodge Charger whose cost is spread out over 50, 100, 200,000 civilian vehicles.

One final issue.

Federal, State, and local governments actually figure in resale value when they buy new cars, including those for law enforcement. They count on a steady stream of taxi buyers and the occasional sedan buyer for Crown Vics (as CHP depended on high intrest in Mustang 5.0s) to offset some of the cost of purchasing a new car. Is the carbon going to have a decent resale value? Can it be resold to the public? Is it durable enough that it won't be falling apart when it reaches the 100K or 150K mile mark most police agencies out this way use?

Is it going to be desirable to Taxi fleets that have to go green to operate in the city? Is it going to be something that will sell well to the public? Where will the buyer of one take it to be serviced or repaired? Law enforcement agencies simply take cars to the dealer to be serviced under contract. How will the Carbon be serviced?

If I can come up with this many questions, those that procure for a living can probably come up with a hundred more.

So, turning off my rabid cynical machine, this and the fact that a start up company isn't able to develop their own vehicle and crash test it and pass emissions, etc without it being essentially a rebodied existing car that already has, tells me that a group of former Ford employees plan to get ahold of of the Crown Victoria chassis and components, create a new body and shorter frame based on the Town Car's wheelbase, create their own composite skinned body to sit on top of that, and get ahold of Ford's upcoming twin turbo diesel, and continue selling to law enforcement.

That's just my hunch, though. :)

I gotta ask isn't this something that many people have thought of doing: taking a BOF design like the GMT360 and existing powertrain w/ a new body and create something 'all new'?

This sounds exciting, but I think any new RWD car that Ford produces will only be a Panther replacement in the most general sense. The marketplace will be completely different by then, and Ford is probably looking at the global opportunity for selling a large sport sedan, rather than a fleet model.

So, if anything, this car will probably be closer to the AU Falcon than the NA Crown Victoria.

The current Panther market is:
- Police: Once the Dodge Charger goes into extended production, it will be difficult to beat their price.

- Taxi: Lots of idling and low speed driving. This is one of the best potential applications for hybrids there is. I bet this market will move over to Escape Hybrids or the upcoming Ford Transit. And like GunonM says, many/most cabs are bought used, so they take what they can get ... I bet there's a lot of used Priuses and Hybrid Camrys about to be painted yellow.

- Old People: Will be dead.

- RWD Aficionados: Have options.

So the question is if Ford can successfully sell something like a budget 5-series. I think between the Lincoln, Volvo, AU, and EU, they could. But it won't be the cheap to produce Police special that the ancient Panther platform is.

The Carbon is been on the drawing board for a while now. It made all the police publications we get in our office over a year ago. Sounds interesting, but I am skeptical of it, I don't think it will get off the ground.

Some company (can't remember the name) back in 1997 right after GM's B-Body production shut down was going to buy all the tooling for the B-Body off of GM. And was going to produce just police pkg. Caprices down in Mexico. Everything was coming together on the deal and at the last minute GM pulled out.
So it will be interesting to see if this company is trying to get the Panther chassis off of Ford, and will Ford go for it.

Great post and good detective work Guy. :bow:
I'm with you. I think these are a bunch of guys that Ford let go and they see an opportunity. Probably not as much new stuf as they would like us to believe, but a reskin/rework job to keep costs low.

Certainly, it must pass all safety and crash standards too - not just a 75mph rear ender. I suspect that side impact and frontals will be expensive and tougher to pass.

Anyone reading my posts for the last 3 years knows how I feel about the Panther platform. I think it would be (already IS actually) a huge business mistake to kill it now. The platform offers so much that a unitized body does not, and it is tailor-made for modifications into limos, cabs, cop cars, and utility work. And at the very least, there are still a LOT of old gray-hairs out in the country where I live that want nothing but a Lincoln Town Car. It's their status symbol... it's what they have worked hard for all their lives.

In this day and time, with the move towards cars and away from trucks, I think Ford would be brain-dead to kill the Panther and the guaranteed sales it is capable of bringing them - especiall from tooling that was paid-off decades ago. :rolleyes:

If Ford would make me the right offer, I'd go there JUST to work on their Panther line... first you guys would see a Marauder done RIGHT real soon after I get there... one that WOULD smoke the tires. :yes: Then you'd see a new Crown Vic for the family with a 4 or 5 cylinder diesel powerplant, DVD, entertainment, nav, and an interior similar to the Edge or Taurus X. You'd see a revised Town Car with interior equal or greater than what you see in the MKZ. You'd see a P71 unit available with frame braces between the front extensions for the bumper, a 305hp version of he 4.6 in it, and rubber floor mats. :yes:
I swear to you guys - I could make some Panther cars that would utterly ROCK, and recreate what a cool old car is all about.
I simply think it's wrong to leave this opportunity for "more of the same" of what's already out there now.

Great post and good detective work Guy. :bow:
I'm with you. I think these are a bunch of guys that Ford let go and they see an opportunity. Probably not as much new stuf as they would like us to believe, but a reskin/rework job to keep costs low.

Certainly, it must pass all safety and crash standards too - not just a 75mph rear ender. I suspect that side impact and frontals will be expensive and tougher to pass.

Anyone reading my posts for the last 3 years knows how I feel about the Panther platform. I think it would be (already IS actually) a huge business mistake to kill it now. The platform offers so much that a unitized body does not, and it is tailor-made for modifications into limos, cabs, cop cars, and utility work. And at the very least, there are still a LOT of old gray-hairs out in the country where I live that want nothing but a Lincoln Town Car. It's their status symbol... it's what they have worked hard for all their lives.

In this day and time, with the move towards cars and away from trucks, I think Ford would be brain-dead to kill the Panther and the guaranteed sales it is capable of bringing them - especiall from tooling that was paid-off decades ago. :rolleyes:

If Ford would make me the right offer, I'd go there JUST to work on their Panther line... first you guys would see a Marauder done RIGHT real soon after I get there... one that WOULD smoke the tires. :yes: Then you'd see a new Crown Vic for the family with a 4 or 5 cylinder diesel powerplant, DVD, entertainment, nav, and an interior similar to the Edge or Taurus X. You'd see a revised Town Car with interior equal or greater than what you see in the MKZ. You'd see a P71 unit available with frame braces between the front extensions for the bumper, a 305hp version of he 4.6 in it, and rubber floor mats. :yes:
I swear to you guys - I could make some Panther cars that would utterly ROCK, and recreate what a cool old car is all about.
I simply think it's wrong to leave this opportunity for "more of the same" of what's already out there now.


You've got my vote :thumb:

I am so sick of driving underpowered, ill handling P71s.

You can count me in as well as someone who thinks the Panther still has alot of life left in it. With a change in marketing and new sheetmetal, the car would see a rebirth in sales.

Consider that the Crown Victoria despite being a body on frame structure is actually no heavier than other much smaller full sized sedans. The 2008 Crown Vic weighs 4127. That's roughly 100 pounds more than a much smaller 300C (4066), 150 more than a G8 GT (3995), and only about 120 pounds heavier than the Fusion sized BMW M5.

To date the most evil looking car I'[ve seen on the street was a CV a reservist had when I was still in the service. He picked it up from the CHP, it was painted jet black, tinted windows, lowered and had 275s all around on 18" 5 spoke aftermarket rims. It sounds simple, and on any other car it would barely get a 2nd glance. But on the CV, it just wakes it up the way the Impala SS package woke up the old Caprice.

Putting the Interceptor body on the Crown Vic would be the way to revitalize not just the Crown Victoria, but IMO it's presence would dominate the Ford showroom creating alot of traffic.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//media/il/features/general/ford.interceptor.concept/interceptor.prf.2.500.jpg

You can count me in as well as someone who thinks the Panther still has alot of life left in it. With a change in marketing and new sheetmetal, the car would see a rebirth in sales.

Consider that the Crown Victoria despite being a body on frame structure is actually no heavier than other much smaller full sized sedans. The 2008 Crown Vic weighs 4127. That's roughly 100 pounds more than a much smaller 300C (4066), 150 more than a G8 GT (3995), and only about 120 pounds heavier than the Fusion sized BMW M5.

To date the most evil looking car I'[ve seen on the street was a CV a reservist had when I was still in the service. He picked it up from the CHP, it was painted jet black, tinted windows, lowered and had 275s all around on 18" 5 spoke aftermarket rims. It sounds simple, and on any other car it would barely get a 2nd glance. But on the CV, it just wakes it up the way the Impala SS package woke up the old Caprice.

Putting the Interceptor body on the Crown Vic would be the way to revitalize not just the Crown Victoria, but IMO it's presence would dominate the Ford showroom creating alot of traffic.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//media/il/features/general/ford.interceptor.concept/interceptor.prf.2.500.jpg

I am not much of a Ford guy, but I would definately consider that car.

I am not much of a Ford guy, but I would definately consider that car.

I could participate in a lynch mob to go after whomever at Ford killed the Interceptor.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/news/auto_shows/2007_detroit_auto_show_auto_shows/concept_debuts/ford_interceptor_concept_auto_shows/ford_interceptor_concept_gallery/ford_interceptor_concept_image_001/897816-1-eng-US/ford_interceptor_concept_image_001_gallery_image_l arge.jpg


Even more, I could pull the trigger on the ones who nixed the Forty-Nine concept.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_4.jpg
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_1.jpg
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_6.jpg


The Forty-Nine SHOULD have been done, and would have come to market a full 2 years before the Chrysler 300C - which was a smash-hit when it came out. Ford missed the ball, the field, and the whole game on that one IMO. :(

I could participate in a lynch mob to go after whomever at Ford killed the Interceptor.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/news/auto_shows/2007_detroit_auto_show_auto_shows/concept_debuts/ford_interceptor_concept_auto_shows/ford_interceptor_concept_gallery/ford_interceptor_concept_image_001/897816-1-eng-US/ford_interceptor_concept_image_001_gallery_image_l arge.jpg


Even more, I could pull the trigger on the ones who nixed the Forty-Nine concept.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_4.jpg
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_1.jpg
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1169/Ford-Forty-Nine-Concept_6.jpg


The Forty-Nine SHOULD have been done, and would have come to market a full 2 years before the Chrysler 300C - which was a smash-hit when it came out. Ford missed the ball, the field, and the whole game on that one IMO. :(

Ford actually came very close to approving the Forty Nine. There's a pretty good story behind it too.

The short of it, the Forty Nine was moving towards approval but there was a conengent that was enthusiastic about the Ford GT. When it came to a point where the decision boiled down to either the comparatively high volume Forty Nine (which very well could have worne the name Thunderbird) versus the high impact Ford GT, a surprize viewing and the fact that the GT cost Ford no new money to build sealed the deal.

The Ford GT development was funded by contributions from various Ford divisions. Various Ford R&D departments contributed as did SVT and departments within new vehicle development and even Ford's autoshow department. Lot's of volunteers worked after hours and resources in between useage was made available.

The GT rallied those within Ford and did create alot of enthusiasm with the company. GT also made Ford some money and did quite a bit for it's image.

But one really has to wonder what might have been different if the Forty Nine had been moved into production as the new Thunderbird (on the new Mustang RWD chassis).

Ford actually came very close to approving the Forty Nine. There's a pretty good story behind it too.

The short of it, the Forty Nine was moving towards approval but there was a conengent that was enthusiastic about the Ford GT. When it came to a point where the decision boiled down to either the comparatively high volume Forty Nine (which very well could have worne the name Thunderbird) versus the high impact Ford GT, a surprize viewing and the fact that the GT cost Ford no new money to build sealed the deal.

The Ford GT development was funded by contributions from various Ford divisions. Various Ford R&D departments contributed as did SVT and departments within new vehicle development and even Ford's autoshow department. Lot's of volunteers worked after hours and resources in between useage was made available.

The GT rallied those within Ford and did create alot of enthusiasm with the company. GT also made Ford some money and did quite a bit for it's image.

But one really has to wonder what might have been different if the Forty Nine had been moved into production as the new Thunderbird (on the new Mustang RWD chassis).

Thanks for the post.

The F-Nine just draws on me like a great steak dinner. I can't forget it or let it go. It's sex on wheels IMO. Sleek, retro, modern, unique, and it utterly explodes with spirit and soul. It's like the car is whispering to me... "C'mon and drive big boy. Let's go cruisin'. Let's go see what's lurking about this evening. Let's go "huntin' ". :cool:

Imagine that car with the Terminator 4.6 in it (because it's from that era... I'd like the 5.4 these days), and a few well-chosen mods. :yes:

Huge mistake not to do that car IMO. Timing is everything - I think it would still do decently today, but before the 300C came out, this would have just slammed everyone else in the "mob car market". I'd still be a buyer if it came out, and I'd still be a buyer if it had 4 doors too, so long as it didn't get longer for the back set of doors.