Yeah...speculation has nothing to do with oil prices..

Interesting what happens when you have 10x the investors trying to buy a commodity with a fairly static supply...

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080910/ap_on_go_co/oil_speculation

WASHINGTON – Speculation by large investors — and not supply and demand for oil — were a primary reason for the surge in oil prices during the first half of the year and the more recent price declines, an independent study concluded Wednesday.

The report by Masters Capital Management said investors poured $60 billion into oil futures markets during the first five months of the year as oil prices soared from $95 a barrel in January to $145 a barrel by July.

Since then, these investors have withdrawn $39 billion from those markets as prices have retreated dramatically, the report said. Oil traded at about $102 a barrel Wednesday on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"We have clear evidence the fund flow pushed prices up and the fund flow pushed prices down," said Michael Masters of Masters Capital Management, calling the amount of money moving into oil futures markets by large institutional investors in the early part of the year "way off the scale."

Masters said its analysis shows investors "began a massive stampede for the exits" on July 15 and that this caused the price decline.

"These large financial players have become the primary source of the dramatic and damaging volatility seen in oil prices," concluded the report.

The report was released Wednesday by House and Senate sponsors of bills to put additional curbs on oil market speculation and comes in advance of a report on oil market speculation expected possibly this week by the Commodities Futures Trading Commission. The commission regulates commodity markets.

Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., a sponsor of an anti-speculation bill, said the Masters report challenges CFTC claims to date that supply and demand forces — and not excessive speculation — has driven up oil prices.

"This analysis illustrates that when oil speculators poured large amounts of speculative money into oil markets, prices skyrocketed just as they were hoping ... And when the speculative money got pulled out, prices tumbled," she said.

Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., said he wants to know "how oil speculators were able to drive prices up and down while the CFTC was asleep at the switch."

An interagency task force, led by the CFTC, concluded in an interim report last July that "fundamental supply and demand factors" influence the oil markets and that the data "does not support the proposition that speculative activity has systematically driven changes in oil prices."

Senate critics of the regulatory agency charged that report was based in flawed evidence.

"The CFTC has its head in the sand," said Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., chairman of the House Energy and Commerce investigations subcommittee.

Stupak said the Masters report shows that that oil prices soared when speculators poured money into future markets even as the federal Energy Information Administration was forecasting supply would exceed demand.

Congress for months has been considering various measures aimed at curbing oil market speculation, but those efforts have been thwarted amid disputes over other energy issues from taxing oil companies to new offshore drilling.

Legislation before the Senate would put limits on the amount of oil certain traders, interested only in speculation, would be allowed to purchase in futures markets and give new authorities and staff to the CFTC to regulate oil markets.

I was writing the same post and link in the other thread while you were doing this one!

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5575770&postcount=200

Let the naysayers come out against this! :lol:

My only question would be doesn't someone have to take delivery of this oil eventually? And when that day comes the speculators either have to store the oil or sell it at market rates. If the price goes too high demand drops and you get a glut of supply. Where is this speculation glut being stored?

They have been having to sell it before delivery and loosing their ass as the market goes down. That is why they have been pulling their funds from the oil market.

My only question would be doesn't someone have to take delivery of this oil eventually? And when that day comes the speculators either have to store the oil or sell it at market rates. If the price goes too high demand drops and you get a glut of supply. Where is this speculation glut being stored?

They have been having to sell it before delivery and loosing their ass as the market goes down. That is why they have been pulling their funds from the oil market.

Sure, now. But before as prices were going up they would buy and sell even higher. We still bought just as much oil at $130 this summer as we did when it was only $50 a year ago. The end consumer was still willing to pay that high price or there is a lot of hidden oil somewhere that couldn't be sold at $130+.

Oil is not your typical supply/demand thing. If oil goes up, sure you may drive a little less...but you don't use less plastics. You don't turn the A/C back a few degrees. You don't buy product from the local farmers market instead of the product from the grocery store that has been flown and trucked in from all over the world. While demand will ease over time with high prices, it would not happen as fast as a normal commodity.


The reason the price of oil went up is because there was not enough oil futures to supply the demand of investors who would looking to buy it and turn it for a buck. The actual supply of oil was enough for world usage.

Sure, now. But before as prices were going up they would buy and sell even higher. We still bought just as much oil at $130 this summer as we did when it was only $50 a year ago. The end consumer was still willing to pay that high price or there is a lot of hidden oil somewhere that couldn't be sold at $130+.

$60B in five months sounds like a lot, but let's look at what it is in the grand scheme of things. At 75 million barrels a day, the world spends $7.8B each day on oil (assuming a price of $105/barrel). Over a period of five months, that's $1.18 trillion. $60B ain't much in this context.

Even at $105/barrel, the pricing indicates that oil supplies aren't exactly overrunning the demand. To ignore this does a disservice to the work that lies ahead, but I suspose that some people would be much more comfortable if conservation, additional petroleum production, and alternative fuel development weren't necessary.

BTW, oil usage is prodominately for transportation uses. Take away cars and trucks, and you're not talking about a whole lot of consumption. I've posted the number here previously and I probably won't take the time to look the stuff up again for those who aren't interested in data.

When the media and banks conspire together and throw up a figure of $200/bbl, which is essentially just a figment of one's imagination... it's likely to bring in the investors looking to make easy profits.

Remember, the media and banks are owned by the 'same entities'. The markets are clearly being manipulated.

If you introduce $60 billion dollars in specultive investment funds into any commodity market that has static supply you are gonna see a price spike.

We can argue this all day long however, the fact that prices spiked as the $60 billion poured in, and reduced as $39 billion was pulled out is plenty of evidence. Again...while people bitch about oil prices...how many people actually make a meaningfull change to their driving habits.

$60B in five months sounds like a lot, but let's look at what it is in the grand scheme of things. At 75 million barrels a day, the world spends $7.8B each day on oil (assuming a price of $105/barrel). Over a period of five months, that's $1.18 trillion. $60B ain't much in this context.

Even at $105/barrel, the pricing indicates that oil supplies aren't exactly overrunning the demand. To ignore this does a disservice to the work that lies ahead, but I suspose that some people would be much more comfortable if conservation, additional petroleum production, and alternative fuel development weren't necessary.

BTW, oil usage is prodominately for transportation uses. Take away cars and trucks, and you're not talking about a whole lot of consumption. I've posted the number here previously and I probably won't take the time to look the stuff up again for those who aren't interested in data.

...how many people actually make a meaningfull change to their driving habits.

Down to one car now (Camry 2.4L) and only travel to work by train. One tank of fuel is enough to last us 2 weeks.

The problem with the amount of money that came into oil, is that the speculation and manipulation had to continue, or the speculators would lose their asses. Thus, once it started going up, the market had to use any excuse to keep building it up, so the speculators could cover their buys.

This is why you are seeing companies, and hedge funds, going bankrupt, or into severe financial difficulty, since the price dropped.

You just cannot sustain an artificially inflated price indefinitally.

SemGroup LP lost 3.2 Billion dollars, in oil, in 1 day. They declared BK. They were one of the largest delivery companies of propane, in the nation, through their SemStream subsidiary. There are now all kinds of lawsuits, and may be possible indictments due to their non disclosure of the size of their hedging. The AZ Corp Comm is even looking at possibly sueing them. Semstream is the main supplier for propane in my town of Payson, and my husbands company is the one who delivers to them (my husband is the resident driver).

It probably seemed like an easy way to make some fast money................ but they got burned bad. This is turning into a mini Enron.

Yes I have changed my driving habits. I watch how I drive, and do not get on the gas much. I am no longer in a hurry. We do not go down to the Valley to visit relatives, or go shopping either (77 miles away). We are basically a one vehicle family, as my husband only drives to where he can park his truck (hazmat) once a week. Basically, I go through about 1 tank of gas a month now.

Again...while people bitch about oil prices...how many people actually make a meaningfull change to their driving habits.

Got a 5.0 in the basement that hasn't seen the sun since February.
Just filled-up the '93 4-banger yesterday - $47 and 38mpg. Good for 2 more weeks! :D
Just bought a 91 4-banger for the wife Saturday night (so she'd stop trying to hork mine). Paid $700 for it with 81k miles, 2nd owner, and drove it 55 miles home no problem. Probably going to sell a 94 V6 car (25-28mpg) to make room. Planned trips into town for groceries and eating out at the same time. Staying home more nights. Heck, commuting 50 miles each way was also a huge part of my desire for a job change last year - now I commute 6.

Also, have more plans to take my 4-cyl cars to 50mpg or beyond if the gas spike returns... after all, I am a mechanical engineer who plays with cars. ;)


We are also changing our habits around the house. Recycling more. Watching hot water usage. Looking at a solar hot water system right now in fact. Potentially looking at solar heat supplement too - but that's a pretty big investment right now.

All of this, yet I am one of the people who can "afford" the higher gas prices.
Doing it because it's the right thing to do.

I'd say there are more people making changes out here than you give credit for.

$60B in five months sounds like a lot, but let's look at what it is in the grand scheme of things. At 75 million barrels a day, the world spends $7.8B each day on oil (assuming a price of $105/barrel). Over a period of five months, that's $1.18 trillion. $60B ain't much in this context.

Even at $105/barrel, the pricing indicates that oil supplies aren't exactly overrunning the demand. To ignore this does a disservice to the work that lies ahead, but I suspose that some people would be much more comfortable if conservation, additional petroleum production, and alternative fuel development weren't necessary.

BTW, oil usage is prodominately for transportation uses. Take away cars and trucks, and you're not talking about a whole lot of consumption. I've posted the number here previously and I probably won't take the time to look the stuff up again for those who aren't interested in data.

The small caveat that is overlooked is that this 60 billion dollar infusion never took delivery and much of it was on the market along with regular buying at any one time instead of being spread out. Many of these contracts were bought up and sold many times sometimes on the same day making the price swings worse than if regular market forces would have been allowed to work. At one point during the worst of it 79% of the market contracts were owned by speculators who never intended to take delivery.

At one point during the worst of it 79% of the market contracts were owned by speculators who never intended to take delivery.

But then when delivery time comes they have to sell them to those that actually want the oil (demand). The Demand was willing to pay those prices. If people said "sorry that is too much" and walked away then where did the oil go? Oil has been over $100 for 6 months and we are burning every last drop. Who is holding the speculation glut if one exists?

It was a paper glut, not an actual physical one.

Basically, they were buying and selling the same oil futures, over and over. Futures being the key word.

To put it in simple terms, it was pure pricing manipulation, at its worst.

this has to be the bitchest oil/gas price forum in the entire world.


all the other car websites i frequent have zero threads about this garbage.

this has to be the bitchest oil/gas price forum in the entire world.


all the other car websites i frequent have zero threads about this garbage.

Ignorance is bliss. :shrug:


Personally, I'd rather spend my hard-earned cash on cars, not gas.
I'd also rather spread my wealth in my community, not for making some billionaire even wealthier, and certainly not in the middle east.

If $10/gal gas makes you happy, move to Europe - you'll soon be ecstatic.

Again...there are limited amout of oil futures. Just because there are 10x the investors does not mean that there is 10x the amount of oil being bought. It just means all those investors are paying higher prices for the same amount of oil futures. These investors never plan on taking delivery, so they have to dump the investment it before it gets here. The reason that you are seeing the price go down is because investors are starting to lose their ass dumping it before delivery and selling it at a loss.

But then when delivery time comes they have to sell them to those that actually want the oil (demand). The Demand was willing to pay those prices. If people said "sorry that is too much" and walked away then where did the oil go? Oil has been over $100 for 6 months and we are burning every last drop. Who is holding the speculation glut if one exists?

Ignorance is bliss. :shrug:


Personally, I'd rather spend my hard-earned cash on cars, not gas.
I'd also rather spread my wealth in my community, not for making some billionaire even wealthier, and certainly not in the middle east.

If $10/gal gas makes you happy, move to Europe - you'll soon be ecstatic.

if $4 is breaking the bank then the price of gas isn't your problem.

Again...there are limited amout of oil futures. Just because there are 10x the investors does not mean that there is 10x the amount of oil being bought. It just means all those investors are paying higher prices for the same amount of oil futures. These investors never plan on taking delivery, so they have to dump the investment it before it gets here. The reason that you are seeing the price go down is because investors are starting to lose their ass dumping it before delivery and selling it at a loss.
so really what you saying is oil is only low right now becuase investors bought futures high and held on to them hoping it would go back up but now that they havent there they have to sell them becuase they cant keep them (becuase they cant take delivery). so that market is flooded right now just becuase some people screwed them selves? so will see oil drop for a while then go back up?

Basically...


Investors bought oil because it was going up with the intention of selling it before delivery at a profit. When it because apparent that there want a production shortage to support current oil prices, and the dollar started to strengthen..investors started loosing money. Now they are are cutting their losses, and running for the hills creating further downward pressure on oil. I think we will see legislation to prevent this kind of thing moving forward so if oil goes up it is based on something like a real shortage.

so really what you saying is oil is only low right now becuase investors bought futures high and held on to them hoping it would go back up but now that they havent there they have to sell them becuase they cant keep them (becuase they cant take delivery). so that market is flooded right now just becuase some people screwed them selves? so will see oil drop for a while then go back up?

this has to be the bitchest oil/gas price forum in the entire world.


all the other car websites i frequent have zero threads about this garbage.

So what's your point exactly? That this site is not like every other site out there? I'd think it's a good thing.

my point is 80% of the threads are people pissing and whining about gas and oil prices alllll day long. Except the fact that no amount of online crying is going to do anything about the price of gas and move on with your life!!! So what if gas moved up 5 cents where you live... suck it up! life isn't going to go back to 19xx when gas was .30 a gallon and bubble gum was a penny.

so no.. its not a good thing that we have more cry babies here then other sites.

Then i got the goooood ole redneck over here telling me typical white trash "git yer ass outa du united steatss of emerika and move over yonder wit dem fancy pants yeropenas".

my point is 80% of the threads are people pissing and whining about gas and oil prices alllll day long. Except the fact that no amount of online crying is going to do anything about the price of gas and move on with your life!!! So what if gas moved up 5 cents where you live... suck it up! life isn't going to go back to 19xx when gas was .30 a gallon and bubble gum was a penny.

so no.. its not a good thing that we have more cry babies here then other sites.

Then i got the goooood ole redneck over here telling me typical white trash "git yer ass outa du united steatss of emerika and move over yonder wit dem fancy pants yeropenas".


If you dont like our conversations... Leave... ? :shrug:

Basically...


Investors bought oil because it was going up with the intention of selling it before delivery at a profit. When it because apparent that there want a production shortage to support current oil prices, and the dollar started to strengthen..investors started loosing money. Now they are are cutting their losses, and running for the hills creating further downward pressure on oil. I think we will see legislation to prevent this kind of thing moving forward so if oil goes up it is based on something like a real shortage.

makes sence although it would seem that this sell off would create a short period where there is a lull in the price.

o yea, i forgot which of the mid east countries. but i know one wants to cut 500,000 barrels because the price of crude was "dropping too low" and this was a recent fact, was when it was 113 a barrel. all about the $$$$ we need tog et off this ****, but in the mean time drill here ;)

makes sence although it would seem that this sell off would create a short period where there is a lull in the price.

Not all contracts are due at the same time, of course. Some speculators have to sell quickly to avoid taking delivery, but others can try to wait it out longer since they're not due for weeks or months. So it's not a like huge sudden drop (usually), although the medium term trend will be downwards as more contracts start coming due at prices the market won't support. It's actually a good thing the government didn't step in months ago to try to curb speculation in the market (assuming they actually could affect it), since the same forces that drove the price up are needed to drive it back down.

o yea, i forgot which of the mid east countries. but i know one wants to cut 500,000 barrels because the price of crude was "dropping too low" and this was a recent fact, was when it was 113 a barrel. all about the $$$$ we need tog et off this ****, but in the mean time drill here ;)


Well the saudis said they wouldnt mind if oil dropped to $80 a barrel but no lower. They also walked out on OPEC today making OPEC pretty much useless.

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2008/09/11/the-death-of-opec.aspx

Again...while people bitch about oil prices...how many people actually make a meaningfull change to their driving habits.

absolutely correct.....while there is a small percentile of drivers < 10% who have made meaningful changes, the great majority couldn't care less and still drive aggressively and waste gasoline as though nothing happened. i see it every single day driving 70 miles round trip to work.

sad to say, but the majority of drivers out there are still a pack of wasteful ignorant dunces.

but in the mean time drill here ;)

We already did. The US has more wells than any place of earth. It isn't as easy as just drilling a hole anywhere you want and oil comes bubbling up. The US is a post peak nation, it is impossible to stop our production decline.

Well the saudis said they wouldnt mind if oil dropped to $80 a barrel but no lower. They also walked out on OPEC today making OPEC pretty much useless.

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2008/09/11/the-death-of-opec.aspx

The break up of OPEC would be bad news for the Petrodollar.

if $4 is breaking the bank then the price of gas isn't your problem.
It's obviously more of a problem for you than it is for me, because you apparently thought that my "whining" meant that I couldn't financially take the hit of $4/gal - hence my complaints. I suspect that comes from a subconscious fear or feeling that you yourself are experiencing that it is weighing on you, which is rooted in your financial perspective of the gas/oil situation. Now, by projecting your narrowed and personal view onto everyone else's actions you see or read, you have convinced yourself that everyone else that complains about high prices are in dire financial straights - just as you potentially are. My condolences for your depressed position, and I hope you can get it resolved... soon.

Truth is, I can pay far more for gas - no problem. That doesn't mean I WANT TO.
If you had read my post, I said clearly that I would rather spend my cash on cars and other things rather than simply making some wealthy man even wealthier because he controls the fuel. At any rate - thanks for caring! :yes:


my point is 80% of the threads are people pissing and whining about gas and oil prices alllll day long. Except the fact that no amount of online crying is going to do anything about the price of gas and move on with your life!!! So what if gas moved up 5 cents where you live... suck it up! life isn't going to go back to 19xx when gas was .30 a gallon and bubble gum was a penny.

so no.. its not a good thing that we have more cry babies here then other sites.

Then i got the goooood ole redneck over here telling me typical white trash "git yer ass outa du united steatss of emerika and move over yonder wit dem fancy pants yeropenas".
From the last two posts, I'd have to claim the bulk of the whining and crying is coming from your keyboard, not anyone else's on here. In fact, I've seen 4 well-written posts with suggestions about how you can remedy the problem you describe. :cool: FAR from whining... these are informative posts.


With all the respect that a post like yours deserves, I'd suggest that you come to this forum armed with facts, figures, and data, or at least a decent opinion that you have put some thought into, and can present to us all in a civilized and intelligent manner. I advise you to come here to learn something or contribute something. This forum contains some of the best, brightest, most intelligent people in all areas of industry and citizenry - who happen to love cars too. This is not your typical "lounge" where mispelled words and rambling about useless fodder are the norm. These folks are smart, productive, contributing, professional people, and they come here expecting to interface with the same.
You are most welcome to join us and contribute - I personally appreciate any opinion - yours included - but you should know that you WILL be challenged in this forum. If you can't take the heat...

As for solving the problem as you put it... scientific priciple states that you must understand the problem in order to propose a hypothetical solution to it. In here, we are trying to get to the real truth of the problem - period. THAT is the discussion you are griping about. If there is a concensus on the root cause, then we are that much closer to "fixing it". This very thread is about the evidence brought forth indicting speculators for price control - NOT supply and demand of crude in the ground or gas at the pumps. That IS making headway towards identifying the problem IMO.
And just for the heck of it - did you ever think that maybe - just maybe - the old smart guys in this forum might actually be onto something that you never knew, and that maybe you could learn something if you'd stop griping and start reading? I digress.

To everyone else on this board, I present another blind, brainwashed, bamfoozled defender of infinitely inflated oil and gas prices, someone who does not understand how oil economics work, and whose advice to us all is to stop thinking, stop trying to solve a problem, let them price it where they want, and "SUCK IT UP!"
The flock of sheeple is one stronger today! :yes: Score 1 for the other team.:(

(BTW... the word you were looking for above is ACCEPT which means to "agree to terms", not EXCEPT which means "to exclude". But I know what you meant. :) )

And just for the heck of it - did you ever think that maybe - just maybe - the old smart guys in this forum might actually be onto something that you never knew, and that maybe you could learn something if you'd stop griping and start reading? I digress.


what exactly do you plan on doing to bring all these great cz28.com ideas to reality and change the price of gas forever?

We already did. The US has more wells than any place of earth. It isn't as easy as just drilling a hole anywhere you want and oil comes bubbling up. The US is a post peak nation, it is impossible to stop our production decline.[\quote]
Not if you believe the publishings of Atlantic-Richfield and what they found in Prudhoe Bay and also on the north slope of Alaska. The largest untapped reserve known to exist rests there untouched except for testing taps. :shrug:

Remember, there is another reason why we can't produce the majority of the oil we consume inside our own borders. There is that little contract thingy with the Saudi's and the UAE that becomes null and void once we start making our own... :(



[quote]The break up of OPEC would be bad news for the Petrodollar.
Agreed. I think the days of OPEC as we have known them for the last few decades are over. With countries vying for contracts and guaranteed flow, the days of free-marketing your crude by the barrel are coming to a close. The risk then becomes the unit of currency that oil becomes standardized on as it becomes the "global" currency in demand to buy oil with.

not only that proudponey but let look at how much the price of crude effect other things. all the things that you buy that are plastic go up, food products in the store go up, your home heating bill goes up and then you gas bill goes up.any thing the uses trucks to transport it or maintenance it like your cable and electric and phone goes up.

so yah its only 5 cents at the pump it went up but then every thing else in the market goes up as well. so not only are you spending a few bucks more at the gas station buy your spending a few bucks more every where. buy the time you get done that 20 bucks more a week you spending at the pump becuase of high gas price equals out to costing you 100 bucks more a month becuase of every thing else if not more with the way home heating oil is.

what exactly do you plan on doing to bring all these great cz28.com ideas to reality and change the price of gas forever?

In fact there are a list of specific ideas in the other thread.

Get out of debt, keep cash on hand, education, economic policy changes, and others come to the top quickly.

If you want to take it to the extreme, let your congressmen know that you are watching them and you want to see them active in the investigations into price-fixing, insider trading, futures manipulation, etc - the investigations are going on right now.

Research where the gas you buy actually comes from (what country, what company, and via what channels) and choose to buy from the one that suits your qualifications best for being honest and fair (however difficult that might be to validate).

Point is - we have come up with some pretty good ideas that every one of us can do.

Personally, I think educating yourself and those around you on the real truth is paramount. The truth being, there are powers behind the oil situation that are crating it the way they want it - it is not happening due to the basic laws of free-market trading based on supply and demand.

Rome was not built in a day, nor did it fall in a day... but it DID fall.

not only that proudponey but let look at how much the price of crude effect other things. all the things that you buy that are plastic go up, food products in the store go up, your home heating bill goes up and then you gas bill goes up.any thing the uses trucks to transport it or maintenance it like your cable and electric and phone goes up.

so yah its only 5 cents at the pump it went up but then every thing else in the market goes up as well. so not only are you spending a few bucks more at the gas station buy your spending a few bucks more every where. buy the time you get done that 20 bucks more a week you spending at the pump becuase of high gas price equals out to costing you 100 bucks more a month becuase of every thing else if not more with the way home heating oil is.

100% correct.

CNBC had a piece last week that said as much crude was used in the plastic/polymer industry as in all transportatin fuels combined. I thought that was revealing. What DON'T we buy in a grocery store that has plastic containers or wrapping? And we carry it all home in a plastic bag.

I also read yesterday where the airline industry has had a conference and they are all forming an alliance to fund development of a biofuel for air travel. They basicaly want to come up with their own supply of fuel for their own use - kind of a neat idea, so long as it doesn't run the price of corn through the roof because all the airline companies are buying all the grain or some such instance.

not only that proudponey but let look at how much the price of crude effect other things. all the things that you buy that are plastic go up, food products in the store go up, your home heating bill goes up and then you gas bill goes up.any thing the uses trucks to transport it or maintenance it like your cable and electric and phone goes up.

so yah its only 5 cents at the pump it went up but then every thing else in the market goes up as well. so not only are you spending a few bucks more at the gas station buy your spending a few bucks more every where. buy the time you get done that 20 bucks more a week you spending at the pump becuase of high gas price equals out to costing you 100 bucks more a month becuase of every thing else if not more with the way home heating oil is.

it has also made it more expensive for ships from china to dump sh.it on our shores :yes:

In fact there are a list of specific ideas in the other thread.

Get out of debt, keep cash on hand, education, economic policy changes, and others come to the top quickly.

If you want to take it to the extreme, let your congressmen know that you are watching them and you want to see them active in the investigations into price-fixing, insider trading, futures manipulation, etc - the investigations are going on right now.

Research where the gas you buy actually comes from (what country, what company, and via what channels) and choose to buy from the one that suits your qualifications best for being honest and fair (however difficult that might be to validate).

Point is - we have come up with some pretty good ideas that every one of us can do.

Personally, I think educating yourself and those around you on the real truth is paramount. The truth being, there are powers behind the oil situation that are crating it the way they want it - it is not happening due to the basic laws of free-market trading based on supply and demand.

Rome was not built in a day, nor did it fall in a day... but it DID fall.

#1. check
#2. check... although ALOT of people will have to do this for it to make a dif
#3. I do, but the crazy dictor in the south doesn't put eth in his gas around here so that is what my camaro drinks.
#4. There is alot lf power and money behind oil, correct its not happing due to supply and demand... its happening cause greedy evil people have so much money and power they can do whatever they want. I believe our only true way out of this problem is to stop drinking the juice, not getting the price lower.

100% correct.

CNBC had a piece last week that said as much crude was used in the plastic/polymer industry as in all transportatin fuels combined. I thought that was revealing. What DON'T we buy in a grocery store that has plastic containers or wrapping? And we carry it all home in a plastic bag.

I also read yesterday where the airline industry has had a conference and they are all forming an alliance to fund development of a biofuel for air travel. They basicaly want to come up with their own supply of fuel for their own use - kind of a neat idea, so long as it doesn't run the price of corn through the roof because all the airline companies are buying all the grain or some such instance.
i knew about the plastics thing they did something about that a few months back on are news. they want to start making it mandatory for people to bring back plastic bags to the stores for recycling in ny there thing about putting a 2cent deposit which im personally not happy about.

the airline thing i did not know about and since i fly quite a bit (about once a month) that's pretty neat. if nothing else and it just stabilize the price of air line tickets that would be pretty nice. i have seen my ticket price to where i fly go from 150 to 350-400 bucks since gas started going up.
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#4. There is alot lf power and money behind oil, correct its not happing due to supply and demand... its happening cause greedy evil people have so much money and power they can do whatever they want. I believe our only true way out of this problem is to stop drinking the juice, not getting the price lower. i am big for alternative fuels i have said it many times. but i dont feel the philosophy that should be adopted with this is not to rush to get off gas but to try and cut are usage by 1/3 at first and then to 1/2 i think if we can reach the point where we are almost self sufficient to rely on are own domestic production and from a few friendly nations that would be great. i sad my self i will go out and buy the first car that is product that has is a viable alternative fuel car if the price isnt crazy.

This has been my big point. Everyone wants to say that oil is all supply and demand...and once the prices get high...demand will wane bringing prices back down. That is not true with oil because it is not something you can just automaticlly use less off. While most people may drive a little less...they don't turn back the heat...or stop buying things with plastics in them. Right now we are having huge food price inflation because of the cost of packaging, and transportation. The thing is...it is not changing peoples consumption habits. They buy the same ammount of food..they just get it at Super Walmart instead of the preppy grocery store.

100% correct.

CNBC had a piece last week that said as much crude was used in the plastic/polymer industry as in all transportatin fuels combined. I thought that was revealing. What DON'T we buy in a grocery store that has plastic containers or wrapping? And we carry it all home in a plastic bag.

I also read yesterday where the airline industry has had a conference and they are all forming an alliance to fund development of a biofuel for air travel. They basicaly want to come up with their own supply of fuel for their own use - kind of a neat idea, so long as it doesn't run the price of corn through the roof because all the airline companies are buying all the grain or some such instance.

^ cause we'd rather live on credit cards then spend less

^ cause we'd rather live on credit cards then spend less

Not just we as people, but we as in "our government" too. We have the biggest debt ever in history right now, and that AINT good. :no:

This has been my big point. Everyone wants to say that oil is all supply and demand...and once the prices get high...demand will wane bringing prices back down. That is not true with oil because it is not something you can just automaticlly use less off.

Oh really? (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/cfapps/STEO_Query/steotables.cfm?tableNumber=9&periodType=Monthly&startYear=2004&startMonth=1&startMonthChanged=false&startQuarterChanged=false&endYear=2008&endMonth=12&endMonthChanged=false&endQuarterChanged=false&noScroll=false&loadAction=Apply+Changes) Demand dropped by about 5% from May '07 to May '08. It's back up in the past couple month - but then again the price has dropped 30%.

Not just we as people, but we as in "our government" too. We have the biggest debt ever in history right now, and that AINT good. :no:

Preach on, brother :thumb: I was mildly concerned about the national debt when it was much lower; now, it's starting to look like an existential threat :mad:

Oh really? (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/cfapps/STEO_Query/steotables.cfm?tableNumber=9&periodType=Monthly&startYear=2004&startMonth=1&startMonthChanged=false&startQuarterChanged=false&endYear=2008&endMonth=12&endMonthChanged=false&endQuarterChanged=false&noScroll=false&loadAction=Apply+Changes) Demand dropped by about 5% from May '07 to May '08. It's back up in the past couple month - but then again the price has dropped 30%.

That is just in the USA, Most people here seem to forget that the rest of the world uses 75% of the oil too. Declines here can be offset by demand surges else where.

That is just in the USA, Most people here seem to forget that the rest of the world uses 75% of the oil too. Declines here can be offset by demand surges else where.

Brandon was asserting that price cannot affect demand. I say otherwise - as does the data (and the use of US-only data works for this particular use).

I suspect that too many people still don't understand the concept of price inelasticity for commodities in which there is not an adequate substitute.

What you are ignoring...is there is a disconnect between prices and demand. I can't think of any other commodity where a 5% (if that) decrease in demand in one market equals a 30% decrease in price. That kind of deceleration only happens when there is speculation in the market. Last winter was fairly mild..and oil prices really did not ramp up until late spring/summer. The declines in that graph are small enough they could also be attributed to things like the housing recesssion, which has taken away most a lot of peoples safety net (the ability pull money out your house on a refinance). It's not really the right way to handle your finances..but there are a ton of people who did it. This alone has caused people to tighten their belts.

There is some elasticity in the price of oil...however not enought to explain away the wild swings in prices. Oil at $145 a barrel is crippling to the economy, and people, so I would expect a slight decrease. Keep in mind..90% of the country you cannot get around without driving...so there is only so much driving you can reasonably cut out.

Also keep in mind that $145 price never had a shortage, or unmet demand to justify it in the first place. No one was waiting in line for gas, or selling barrels of oil on ebay liek Wii's at Christmas. The problem was, alot of investors decided oil was the next big thing and threw their money at it. When there are 10x the investors trying to buy the same amount of futures...the price will go up. There was an umet demand for oil futures to investors, not oil to consumers.

Brandon was asserting that price cannot affect demand. I say otherwise - as does the data (and the use of US-only data works for this particular use).

I suspect that too many people still don't understand the concept of price inelasticity for commodities in which there is not an adequate substitute.

What you are ignoring...is there is a disconnect between prices and demand. I can't think of any other commodity where a 5% (if that) decrease in demand in one market equals a 30% decrease in price. That kind of deceleration only happens when there is speculation in the market. Last winter was fairly mild..and oil prices really did not ramp up until late spring/summer. The declines in that graph are small enough they could also be attributed to things like the housing recesssion, which has taken away most a lot of peoples safety net (the ability pull money out your house on a refinance). It's not really the right way to handle your finances..but there are a ton of people who did it. This alone has caused people to tighten their belts.

There is some elasticity in the price of oil...however not enought to explain away the wild swings in prices. Oil at $145 a barrel is crippling to the economy, and people, so I would expect a slight decrease. Keep in mind..90% of the country you cannot get around without driving...so there is only so much driving you can reasonably cut out.

Also keep in mind that $145 price never had a shortage, or unmet demand to justify it in the first place. No one was waiting in line for gas, or selling barrels of oil on ebay liek Wii's at Christmas. The problem was, alot of investors decided oil was the next big thing and threw their money at it. When there are 10x the investors trying to buy the same amount of futures...the price will go up. There was an umet demand for oil futures to investors, not oil to consumers.

I've been tempted to add to the thread but the above post summarizes my thoughts exactly. There is no supply/demand issue that correlates exactly to wholesale prices or prices at the bowsers. Elasticity doesn't account for the relative price fluctuations either.

:no:

What you are ignoring...is there is a disconnect between prices and demand. I can't think of any other commodity where a 5% (if that) decrease in demand in one market equals a 30% decrease in price. That kind of deceleration only happens when there is speculation in the market.

That sort of apparent non-linearity is the exact definition of inelasticity. You guys pretend like this is some impossible event, when in fact it's a defined economic phenomenon.

The reason why you don't see the same behavior elsewhere (at least not in the stuff that you directly purchase) is that substitution is possible. If corn goes up in price, you could use wheat or rice. If beef gets too expensive, you eat pork or chicken. When oil gets expensive... well, you bite your lip and pay the price, or else you cut down on your driving. Once again, though, this isn't unheard of in history - but in the last few decades, we've become accustomed to having whatever the hell we wait at the lowest possible price, and that's a bit of a historical anomoly.

what I find interesting is that crude oil is currently just above $100/barrel and the national average for gas is about $3.70.. the last time crude oil was this low, back in April, gas was about $3.30

what I find interesting is that crude oil is currently just above $100/barrel and the national average for gas is about $3.70.. the last time crude oil was this low, back in April, gas was about $3.30

Gasoline and oil are two separate products that are sold on separate markets.

Crude is the main ingredient of gas...and we all know if we are in a clear..unspeculative world there would be a direct correlation between the two. One will follow the other up or down with crude playing the leader. Much like the price of grain effects the price of cereal or so forth. Right now the gas you bought was made from oil likely bought a few months ago at $130 or so a barrel. Also, with Ike you are seeing knee jerk speculation in the gasoline markets but not the crude markets because of the refining capacity that was taken off line. This will temporarily disconnect the price of gasoline from the price of crude.

Up untill the beginning of this year, $70 a barrel seemed to equal about $3.00 a gallon of gas. However oil shoots to $149 a barrel and gas goes to $4.00? It sounds to me like speculation got out of hand, and the oil companies were eating some profit in their gas refining operations to keep the economy from being crippled and the governement from looking even harder at them.

Think about it...if you make 10% at $2.50 a gallon...and then decide to make 7.5% at $4.00 a gallon...you still ahead.

Gasoline and oil are two separate products that are sold on separate markets.

Also, with Ike you are seeing knee jerk manipulation in the gasoline markets

There, fixed that for you.

Reserves should serve a purpose like this. Like a capacitor that facilitates spikes in electricity demand, if the government/companies were truly concerned about spikes in oil demands (or inability to fulfill the steady demand), then make some reserves strictly for this purpose.

But then, they wouldn't be able to charge more for oil.

Also, the number of refineries shut down due to Ike make just under a quarter of all refineries in the US.

%1 increase in demand (or drop in shortage) = ~20% increase in price. That is roughly how it has been historically.

formula79, check out the price to supply correlations in the late 70's. It only takes a small change in supply/demand to make a big change in price.

I can use my town, Payson, as an extreme example of fuel price manipulation............. both good, and bad.

We are a small forest community (about 25K total, with surrounding tows) with alot of 2nd homes. We are both a destination town, and a go-through town, on the way to other northern AZ communities. Thus, we have alot of gas stations per capita. When the price of oil was at its highest, our price for gas never went over $4.00 a gallon. They tried one time, found noone would buy, and lowered it back down. They were willing to take a loss, to keep people coming in for other things in the stores. As a point of comparison, the price of gas in the Valley went up to around $4.20, give or take. The Valley gets their gasoline from a pipeline from CA, and we get ours from refineries in Western NM and SW Colorado.

Fast forward to today. We are currently right at the national average. The Valley is far lower than we are now. The sellers in our community are now making up for their lost profits, by being much slower to lower the price of gasoline here. I can drive to other small forest communities in Northern AZ, and the price of gasoline is $.20 a gallon less than here.............. when we were $.20-.30 a gallon less at the peak.

One nice thing, is we are not affected by Ike manipulation at all.

I will say, however, that many peoples observations are very true. I have seen very little change in how people drive. We may have had less people coming up from the Valley this summer, but they drive just as badly as ever. I don't see many people making a concerted effort to stop the jackrabbit starts, or driving like crazy people. It really is rather sad, as we have made many changes to use less of everything. And yes, we are paying off all debt except house and car, are keeping 1 small CC, and have NEVER used our home as an ATM. I like having equity. We certainly do not live like people with our income level, but we will be almost debt free within a year (short of house and car).

That said, we went fishing at Hawley lake on Saturday (about 120 miles away). On our return trip home, we averaged between 15-16mpg on the highway............. with our non broken in V10. Pretty damn good if you ask me. LOL

100% correct.

CNBC had a piece last week that said as much crude was used in the plastic/polymer industry as in all transportatin fuels combined. I thought that was revealing. What DON'T we buy in a grocery store that has plastic containers or wrapping? And we carry it all home in a plastic bag.

My understanding is that most plastics are made from left-overs from the gasoline refining process, and that is why they are so cheap.

Now admittedly I could be competely wrong about this, but if I'm right, as the amount of gasoline produced lessens, the cost of plastics will go up and we'll see paper replace a lot of packaging.

My town banned plastic grocery bags, and I couldn't be happier even if my grocery costs went up 10 cents a month or so. The paper bags are good for storage and garbage and so on while the plastic ones just went into the trash.

... and have NEVER used our home as an ATM.

I've never understood how people could think of their house an an ATM. The phrase "taking equity out of my house" makes it seem like it's free money that doesn't need to be repaid. It's not. "Taking equity out of your house" is nothing more than a loan, plain and simple. You have to pay that money back on your mortgage. Just because the value of a person's house goes up, why would they think that it would mean they should be able to take out more debt that they just have to pay back with interest? :boggled:

Again...while people bitch about oil prices...how many people actually make a meaningfull change to their driving habits.
I have noticed people have here in Los Angeles. I used just cruise along at 70 in the middle lane, now its 60-65max. Now the crazy's(mostly teens) really have to weave in and out of traffic.
It isn't as easy as just drilling a hole anywhere you want and oil comes bubbling up.
Isn't that why there are no basements in Iraq?:D

And yes, we are paying off all debt except house and car, are keeping 1 small CC, and have NEVER used our home as an ATM. I like having equity. We certainly do not live like people with our income level, but we will be almost debt free within a year (short of house and car).

I am one step ahead of you(just the house for debt now). Keep going it is a great feeling. It is also nice to have to decide between putting money in savings, or paying a little extra towards the house principle.

In fact there are a list of specific ideas in the other thread.

Get out of debt, keep cash on hand, education, economic policy changes, and others come to the top quickly.
Great advice I'll add one, VOTE!

If you want to take it to the extreme, let your congressmen know that you are watching them and you want to see them active in the investigations into price-fixing, insider trading, futures manipulation, etc - the investigations are going on right now.


This should not be considered extreme, contacting your elected officials is what it is all about.

I am one step ahead of you(just the house for debt now). Keep going it is a great feeling. It is also nice to have to decide between putting money in savings, or paying a little extra towards the house principle.


Thank you, and I intend to. Frankly, I am very proud of us. After 9/11 killed our business (small rural business that relied on tourism), we lived off of credit cards and selling vehicles, for 14 months, with a new baby. We sold everything at a loss, to get out of there, and my husband went back to what he was doing prior to the business (truck driving). We had to start small, as he had no "recent experience." Almost 3 years ago he started with his current company, and has started making pretty decent money about 1.5 years ago.

We did not declare BK. We are paying everything off, and have well over half of it paid (its like a second LARGE car payment). I have taken being treated as scum of the earth from collection agencies, and about everyone else, for the last 3 years.............. for doing the right thing. We made the debt, and we are paying it. However, our house payments and vehicle payments have always been perfect. In all of this, we could have taken equity out of our home............... but what would we have gained by paying for this debt for 15-30 years, and having no equity. As it is now, we will have it all paid off in less than 5 years, and are on the road to good credit again (part of the reason for the new truck loan, as vehicular credit is just below mortgage credit as the best).

BTW, we do have a subprime mortgage............... and I do get kind of tired of being stereotyped as being part of the problem. We always pay our house payment, and have far less house debt than our income dictates. We just didn't have any choice at the time, and renting was not an option (stupid money).

Anyway, sorry for patting myself on the back and ranting. It has been a long road, and the end is in sight.

That said, I have always tried to talk anyone I know out of pulling equity out of their house.............. unless it is going back into their house. Believe it or not, once you ask people if they want a 30-year-mortgage on their car, some of them actually get it, and don't do it. However, when I was a mortgage loan officer, I dealt with alot of people who would pull out equity to pay off credit cards and a vehicle.............. and then would charge the cards right back up, and get a new car also. Peoples selfish, "me only, and I have to have everything NOW," is one of the main reasons we are in the pickle we are right now. The banks just facilitated the selfishness.

Agreed. I think the days of OPEC as we have known them for the last few decades are over. With countries vying for contracts and guaranteed flow, the days of free-marketing your crude by the barrel are coming to a close. The risk then becomes the unit of currency that oil becomes standardized on as it becomes the "global" currency in demand to buy oil with.

that is rediculous. OPEC is a monopoly that is not under US Jurisdiction. Do you plan to go to war to shut them down? Oil prices are supply and demand. You can speculate all you want but if people dont buy the oil your oil pyramid scheme theory collapses... I cant believe what Im reading here...

that is rediculous. OPEC is a monopoly that is not under US Jurisdiction. Do you plan to go to war to shut them down? Oil prices are supply and demand. You can speculate all you want but if people dont buy the oil your oil pyramid scheme theory collapses... I cant believe what Im reading here...

You have TOTALLY lost me.:nuts:
Where did anyone say OPEC was under US jurisdiction?!?!
Where did anyone say anything about going to war for anything?
Where did anyone say anything about "shutting them down"?:shrug:
You need to go back and actually read my post, and we'll start over again.


YOU say oil prices go by "supply and demand".
These experts that make their living in finance say "Speculation by large investors — and not supply and demand for oil — were a primary reason for the surge in oil prices."

"We have clear evidence the fund flow pushed prices up and the fund flow pushed prices down," said Michael Masters of Masters Capital Management, calling the amount of money moving into oil futures markets by large institutional investors in the early part of the year "way off the scale."

Masters said its analysis shows investors "began a massive stampede for the exits" on July 15 and that this caused the price decline.

"These large financial players have become the primary source of the dramatic and damaging volatility seen in oil prices," concluded the report."
Reference this article - Study links oil prices to investor speculation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_go_co/oil_speculation)

There are arguments for and against both sides - always are, but I'm pretty-much convinced (and history is on my side) that insanely wealthy people get power hungry and greedy and like to do what they can to get "more"... more power, more money, and more control. I'll stick to my theory until someone comes along with better evidence to support something different. When they do, I'll be the first to admit the facts are better and change my stance... I'm big enough of a man to admit that I can learn something new.

Thank you, and I intend to. Frankly, I am very proud of us. After 9/11 killed our business (small rural business that relied on tourism), we lived off of credit cards and selling vehicles, for 14 months, with a new baby. We sold everything at a loss, to get out of there, and my husband went back to what he was doing prior to the business (truck driving). We had to start small, as he had no "recent experience." Almost 3 years ago he started with his current company, and has started making pretty decent money about 1.5 years ago.

We did not declare BK. We are paying everything off, and have well over half of it paid (its like a second LARGE car payment). I have taken being treated as scum of the earth from collection agencies, and about everyone else, for the last 3 years.............. for doing the right thing. We made the debt, and we are paying it. However, our house payments and vehicle payments have always been perfect. In all of this, we could have taken equity out of our home............... but what would we have gained by paying for this debt for 15-30 years, and having no equity. As it is now, we will have it all paid off in less than 5 years, and are on the road to good credit again (part of the reason for the new truck loan, as vehicular credit is just below mortgage credit as the best).

BTW, we do have a subprime mortgage............... and I do get kind of tired of being stereotyped as being part of the problem. We always pay our house payment, and have far less house debt than our income dictates. We just didn't have any choice at the time, and renting was not an option (stupid money).

Anyway, sorry for patting myself on the back and ranting. It has been a long road, and the end is in sight.

That said, I have always tried to talk anyone I know out of pulling equity out of their house.............. unless it is going back into their house. Believe it or not, once you ask people if they want a 30-year-mortgage on their car, some of them actually get it, and don't do it. However, when I was a mortgage loan officer, I dealt with alot of people who would pull out equity to pay off credit cards and a vehicle.............. and then would charge the cards right back up, and get a new car also. Peoples selfish, "me only, and I have to have everything NOW," is one of the main reasons we are in the pickle we are right now. The banks just facilitated the selfishness.

After paying my way through college for my 2nd degree, I graduated $14k in the hole to credit card and personal loans. The only time in my life that my net worth was negative. My cars, home, and all my possessions could not have paid-off my debt at that moment. IT SUCKED. Well, I went to work and I was paid off in 2 years and started putting money away like a bandit. Wife and I lived in a 20-year-old, 12'x65' Oakwood mobile home for 6 years, driving 10-y/o used cars with over 100k on them. At that same time, my classmates from high school and first college grads were all in new houses, driving 2 or 3 new cars, buying boats or motorbikes, and going on trips 1 or 2 times/year. IT WAS HARD to see them living life large while we were living like paupers. They would ask me, "Why don't you buy a house, Why don't you buy a new car, Why don't you come on a cruise with us?" The peer pressure was almost unbearable, because I WANTED to provide those nice things for my wife too.

Short story - We lived in our "little bungalow" as we called it, for another 3 years after I graduated and got a good job. I paid off the debt in 2 years and started saving for our house. I designed and drew up our home, and we started construction in 1997. We moved-in in 1998. I have 3-levels, each is 1932 sq-ft. Our great room is a roomy 21' x 44' without a column, post, or wall in it anywhere. My kid now has one of the nicest homes in the county to be raised in, and my wife no longer needs to hang her head in shame when our old friends come over to visit. NOW that I am on the other side of the hill, I can look back and say it was worth all the waiting and saving we did back then. I have 14.5 years left on the loan by book dates, but since I pay an extra $200 or so every month on the mortgage, I expect to be paid-off in 11 years or so. My house is the only thing I owe money on, and it's the tax breaks that keep me dragging it out like I do.

Another thing... I wrote my last check for a car payment in September of 1991. It was $287.33/mo for 60 months for my 1986 Bronco II. I'll never forget it, nor will I ever have another one! :cool:
I get a nice feeling when I go to buy a vehicle and the saleperson sits down in their cubicle and starts asking questions for a credit report, and I inform them that I'll either pay cash or write a check for it.

Gloria, I feel your pains. I've been there too.
All I can say is KUDOS to you guys for doing what's right, and thank you for being upstanding citizens. It's a pleasure to be living in the same country as folks like you. :bow:

To everyone else reading these posts - all I can say is that a good plan and a little bit of luck can make it all work out if you will stick with it, and it sure is nice to be free from the demons that treat you like dirt because you "owe them" something. :yes:

PS - We sold the trailer about 3 months after we moved into our home. We got $2500 for it (which I gave to my wife and she bought us a huge 7-section conversation sofa for the great room with), and it had all the appliances and appointments (like drapes and blinds and such) still in it - as we didn't need them in the new house. And to this day, my wife and I both still miss it. It was warm in the winter, cool in the summer, it kept us sheltered and close together. We couldn't "disappear" to the upstairs loft, the office, or the basement and be out of sight or earshot for hours at a time like we do now. We made our daughter in that little bungalow, but she only slept in it for about 4 months. It was actually cute, very cozy, and it will go with us to our graves in our memories as how our marriage got started out "the right way"... over 17 years ago.

Thank you ProudPony, that was very nice. :) For the last 3 years, I have felt like I am my only cheerleader. LOL (husband is away driving all week, so I have to take care of everything myself)

While we did incur a fair amount of debt in that 14 months, we were just squeeking by when we moved............... until my husband lost his job (funny things happen when you talk to HR about a dispatcher that screams in your face all the time, and refuses to let you get home to your family). That was the last straw. I borrowed from Peter to pay Paul, and about every other trick in the book, that I could think of............... but 1 month of getting about the same money from unemployment, in a month............. than he made in a week................ did us in.

The rest of the balances went through the roof. We may not have defaulted on the cards, if there weren't constant over-the-limit fees, late fees, and interest rates that shot up from 7-17% to 30%. Once the new job started paying enough to start paying some of it, we caught up what hadn't gone to charge-off, and started paying on the charge-offs, as we could (his income is greater in winter than summer, because he hauls propane). A few have gone to judgement. I just couldn't pay on everything at once, as they all wanted $200 a month or more. We have paid off many, and there is only 1 left that I am not paying on, and that is only because the collection agency that had that account were AH's that you could not believe. They forced you to call every 3 months, and would then berate you and scream in your face........... and I had a payment arrangement with them. In between me calling them, they would call 10-20 times a day. I have never renigged on any payment arrangement, or had one bounce (I will not promise what I cannot pay). I told them that I would deal with them by mail only, and sent that by registered letter. They stopped taking the payment that I had authorized, and eventually stopped calling me. ANY other company was better than those jerks (one actually told me to sell my body to pay the debt.............. or maybe my son. Cute white boys are worth quite a bit). I wish I would have been able to tape record them, but could not figure out how to do it with a cell phone (all we use due to husbands job). Anyway, I will pay that company by settlement when a decent place gets the account.

Anyway, I just have to look at the prize, which is all the disposable income we will have when this is over. LOL Our home is not large (1350sqft), but I take alot of pride in it, and am proud of what we have............ as I know it is much more than many have. We have kept my husbands few prized classic cars............ but sold alot of other stuff we had, after all, it is just stuff. Frankly, we are pretty blessed. I know alot of people have had it much worse than we have. We have never lost everything to a hurricane, or wondered if family members were in a tower that came down.

Our wonderful son was conceived in the 14x70 with the tip-out, ground set, in a tiny town in central NV (Rick moved there to take care of his dad with heart disease). So I understand where you are coming from.

That was a great story, btw. It is great to see the real people behind the names that post. Sometimes it is easy to forget that they really are real people.

It is funny, because I still see people putting all kinds of big purchases on their CC's........... and I look at my one tiny CC. Right now we are saving for the new washing machine, because ours may die any time. Instant gratification can be fun, but it is rather hallow also. There is no sense of accomplishment.

Thank you ProudPony, that was very nice. :) For the last 3 years, I have felt like I am my only cheerleader. LOL (husband is away driving all week, so I have to take care of everything myself)

That was a great story, btw. It is great to see the real people behind the names that post. Sometimes it is easy to forget that they really are real people.

It is funny, because I still see people putting all kinds of big purchases on their CC's........... and I look at my one tiny CC. Right now we are saving for the new washing machine, because ours may die any time. Instant gratification can be fun, but it is rather hallow also. There is no sense of accomplishment.
Thanks. :bow:

Keep up the fight, and share what you have learned. :thumb:

If there is any kind of silver lining in your cloud, it might be that those in a credit crunch could be looking at some serious relief soon due to the economic conditions. Don't be afraid to take advantage of any rate reduction or time mitigation you can. The buttplugs have made a killing off of you in interest already!

It is funny, because I still see people putting all kinds of big purchases on their CC's........... and I look at my one tiny CC. Right now we are saving for the new washing machine, because ours may die any time. Instant gratification can be fun, but it is rather hallow also. There is no sense of accomplishment.

If you are disciplined, there is nothing wrong with putting purchases on a Credit Card. In fact, you would be stupid not to.

I am of course talking about the instances where you can get 0% interest for a given period of time and then you earn reward points which can be turned into cash, gift cards, etc. on top of that. And while you are paying off that credit card at 0% (make sure you pay it off in the stipulated time) you can put your money to work, to make more money.

So, that $1,400 TV you would have paid cash for, could become a $1,000 TV if you finance at 0% for a year or so, get the equivalent of $40 in rewards and make a few hundred with that money in the stock market or other investment.

You better believe that is the way I do things. And that TV above is a real example. I also got the TV on a sick sale, plus an extra 10% of from a coupon I had been saving. It was such a good deal that the sales manager congratulated me, haha.

Thanks. :bow:

Keep up the fight, and share what you have learned. :thumb:

If there is any kind of silver lining in your cloud, it might be that those in a credit crunch could be looking at some serious relief soon due to the economic conditions. Don't be afraid to take advantage of any rate reduction or time mitigation you can. The buttplugs have made a killing off of you in interest already!

LOL, yes they have. However, I have negotiated settlements on much, which actually puts the total closer to the actual balance when the default happened. The worst, or course, is Capital One. They use the slimiest companies out there.

To all, beware of Capital One. If you use their cards, pray that nothing ever happens. I have never seen a company use such illegal tactics in my life. They will make your life miserable. Hiring a credit attorney may seem like an option, but they are very expensive, and want their money up front. I know, I tried.

So far, no bailout has benefitted me at all. The adjust date on our mortgage is too far out. Plus, the margin is low enough, that our payment would go down, not up. It is a pretty prime subprime loan.

Thanks again ProudPony. Sometimes I get pretty down about it all, but then I pay something else off, and I get all happy again. LOL

ZZtop, the sad thing is that most people do not have the discipline to do what you are talking about. They have good intentions, then start on the minimum payment bandwagon, and before you know it, this big ol interest charge would appear on their cards. Before 9/11, I did what you do, also. I figured I might as well use someone elses money, if it is free............ and I would make sure I paid it off in the timeframe allowed.

You have TOTALLY lost me.:nuts:
Where did anyone say OPEC was under US jurisdiction?

Where did anyone say anything about going to war for anything?

Where did anyone say anything about "shutting them down"?:shrug:

Sorry that part I did misread. Reading what you said about OPEC, I thought you for for this piece of work.

The Gas Price Relief for Consumers Act which authorizes the Justice Department to take legal action against OPEC state-controlled entities that participate in conspiracies to limit the supply, or fix the price, of oil.

Sorry about that...


You need YOU say oil prices go by "supply and demand".

Thats right Proud, Im the ONLY one saying the law of supply and demand does not disapear when it comes to Oil.:rolleyes:
It felt like I was the only one saying the law of supply and demand didnt disapear when it applied to the housing market before the bubble burst though... :think: That is the reason I am in an apartment now and not an house I thought was overpriced when everyone else thought the housing had nowhere to go but up despite investors owning over half of the houses flooding the market with supply.

Yes Im saying it is affected by Supply and demand. Oil companies can set the price for many reasons. In the end, if the demand isnt there, you dont buy it. You leave that 5.0 in the Garage. People change driving habits, and focus on MPG as well. Just because you demand fuel enough at the current prices just enough to get you to work, does not mean the laws of Supply and Demand disapear.


These experts that make their living in finance say "Speculation by large investors — and not supply and deman
[COLOR="Blue"]"We have clear evidence the fund flow pushed prices up and the fund flow pushed prices down," said Michael Masters of Masters Capital Management, calling the amount of money moving into oil futures markets by large institutional investors in the early part of the year "way off the scale."Masters said its analysis shows investors "began a massive stampede for the exits" on July 15 and that this caused the price decline."These large financial players have become the primary source of the dramatic and damaging volatility seen in oil prices," concluded the report."
Reference this article - [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_go_co/oil_speculation"]Study links oil prices to investor speculation

Again, you are trying to explain how prices are set, not how someone a customer on the other end of that deal determins if the transaction price at the pump is worth it at that set price enough for that transaction to take place. You feel enough demand to pick up that pump to get to work but not to fill up your Mustang you enjoy. The oil companies do not owe you oil, and certainly do not owe it to you to let you set the price of the oil they own, just as you do not owe someone your mustang, much worse at a price they would set because someone feels it is not being used at the time or whatever reason they feel it should be so.

There are arguments for and against both sides - always are, but I'm pretty-much convinced (and history is on my side) that insanely wealthy people get power hungry and greedy and like to do what they can to get "more"... more power, more money, and more control. I'll stick to my theory until someone comes along with better evidence to support something different. When they do, I'll be the first to admit the facts are better and change my stance... I'm big enough of a man to admit that I can learn something new.

Imagine applying that logic to a car you invested loads of money into modifying and then explaining to someone you expected more because of the amount you put into it and you were going to be greedy.

Sorry that part I did misread. Reading what you said about OPEC, I thought you for for this piece of work.

The Gas Price Relief for Consumers Act which authorizes the Justice Department to take legal action against OPEC state-controlled entities that participate in conspiracies to limit the supply, or fix the price, of oil.

Sorry about that...
Absolutely no sweat - thanks! :thumb:

Thats right Proud, Im the ONLY one saying the law of supply and demand does not disapear when it comes to Oil.:rolleyes:
It felt like I was the only one saying the law of supply and demand didnt disapear when it applied to the housing market before the bubble burst though... :think: That is the reason I am in an apartment now and not an house I thought was overpriced when everyone else thought the housing had nowhere to go but up despite investors owning over half of the houses flooding the market with supply.
Not saying you are the only one - not at all. I'm also not saying that I don't think supply/demand are big factors in the market prices of both crude AND retail gas. Most certainly I do. But I AM ALSO SAYING that you should understand that there are individual people (not companies or policies) that decide what crude will sell for tomorrow based on their agenda today. To think otherwise is silly and indefensible, given the investigations, reports, and intimate links we have shown here that put the government, the banks, the investors, and the oil companies all in the same bed at the same time.

I just refuse to give these power-brokers of the world carte-blanche to do as they will to the people and the economy without holding them responsible (and I'd like to hold them accountable too, but that's a tougher ticket to punch). They don't deserve to go un-noticed IMO, and giving them a curtain to hide behind with "supply/demand" written on it is not a good thing.

Yes Im saying it is affected by Supply and demand. Oil companies can set the price for many reasons. In the end, if the demand isnt there, you dont buy it. You leave that 5.0 in the Garage. People change driving habits, and focus on MPG as well. Just because you demand fuel enough at the current prices just enough to get you to work, does not mean the laws of Supply and Demand disapear.

Again, you are trying to explain how prices are set, not how someone a customer on the other end of that deal determins if the transaction price at the pump is worth it at that set price enough for that transaction to take place. You feel enough demand to pick up that pump to get to work but not to fill up your Mustang you enjoy. The oil companies do not owe you oil, and certainly do not owe it to you to let you set the price of the oil they own, just as you do not owe someone your mustang, much worse at a price they would set because someone feels it is not being used at the time or whatever reason they feel it should be so.
The only thing I ask you to reconsider in your post above is my use of the car you mention. The fact is that I MUST go to work. I can not stop driving to work - that is not a decision I can make with any other choices to evaluate.
Having said that, I CAN choose what to drive to work. That is where the decision between the 5.0 and the 2.3 comes in, and I have made that choice. I am financially able to drive either one, and/or park the other too. I made my decision based on economics and good business sense - nothing more. BUT, as a result of my decision, my personal DEMAND for fuel has in fact DECREASED, but it has certainly not gone away. And THAT is where the argument starts to fall apart.

It will never go away - not in my lifetime anyhow. Gasoline is not a commodity that we have other options for (It's not like choosing to stop eating Oreos and buy Fig Newtons instead). It fuels our economy - single-handedly. It is critical to our very existence as a civilized nation. No matter how little I drive personally - even if we all quit driving personally - you would STILL need gas to get farm crops out of the fields, transport them to markets, and get them to our homes for us to eat. You would still need it to fuel factories to make our clothes, heaters, and soap, and also to get those goods to us for consumption. These uses have nothing to do with my personal use of gas at all. It is because of this exceptional dependency on fuel that the laws of free trade and capitalism begin to break down and look more like the model laws of a monopoly - in which the holder of the supply controls both supply, AND demand too as a result of controlling supply. Throw in the use of crude for plastics, petroleum jelly, lubricants, etc and it gets even worse.

Hey - I'm just a goofy engineer - pun intended because I am a funny guy in person - and I may not be the best at explaining the economics behind all of this. If I could explain it perfectly and leave nobody with any questions, I'd probably be rich and working for the money-mongers I hate so much instead of writing a post during an afternoon break at my desk. :D
All I ask is that you not put all the blame for high prices on the "supply/demand" market theory... there's a big hunk of blame that needs to be owned by some incredibly wealthy people who are getting incredibly MORE wealthy from it as witnessed by these record profits and record earnings. That's all I'm saying.

Imagine applying that logic to a car you invested loads of money into modifying and then explaining to someone you expected more because of the amount you put into it and you were going to be greedy.
Actually, not such a good choice for an example. I would not begin to try to explain/ask for more because I know the market. I have a local guy right now BEGGING me to buy an '88 GT from him for $2500 cash. It has a built 351 stroked to 408, carbed, world heads, BBK headers, Demon Carb, C/C plates, aftermarket fuel pump and regulator, a 4" cowl hood and a bazzilion other mods. The interior is bone stock save for the big tach and shift light. The car has T-tops and only 80k original miles. AND, it has a bass-boat-looking, strawberry red with metalflake paintjob.:rolleyes: The guy probably has $10k-15k in it not including his time, and he can't sell it. I walk away from SO MANY cars that have been modified because they become an object of desire for the builder, but not the rest of the world. I'd love to have an '88 GT 5-spd with T-Tops and I'd pay $2500 for one today, but not one like this. :no:

As an investor, I practice what you elude to. I buy original and try to keep it "appealing" to all prospective buyers by keeping it desireable to as many potential buyers as possible. I stay in tune with the market, and try to see what people want (can hardly say anyone NEEDS an old ponycar). If I do decide to modify one for myself, I do it FOR myself, to use, not looking to make money off it. I've never sold one that I have modified to date.
Having said this - I do see your point and agree totally about the demand for a unique item - just saying that I am already on the same side of that fence with you.:yes:

Oil was up $6.67 today and is up around $14 the past 3. Another example of how the bailouts are helping the rich.

Absolutely no sweat - thanks! :thumb:

No problem


Not saying you are the only one - not at all. I'm also not saying that I don't think supply/demand are big factors in the market prices of both crude AND retail gas. Most certainly I do. But I AM ALSO SAYING that you should understand that there are individual people (not companies or policies) that decide what crude will sell for tomorrow based on their agenda today.

What they set the price for I consider different than what a product will sell for. To say they determine what they will sell it to you for suggests you are obligated to buy it.


To think otherwise is silly and indefensible, given the investigations, reports, and intimate links we have shown here that put the government, the banks, the investors, and the oil companies all in the same bed at the same time.

CNN as in the CNN link Specializes in silly and indefensible. You are talking to someone who watches CNN 8 hours a day while at work as an unwelcome part of my job. If you consider one reporter or show on CNN unbiased, With the posible exception of Lou Dobbs we will have to disagree. Just as your argument has a bias as does mine. As for the AP I have heard they have been known to have their own bias as well. Infact I do not think there is such a thing as an unbiased report. But as an alternative to CNN, Ill stick with "silly and indefensible"...


I just refuse to give these power-brokers of the world carte-blanche to do as they will to the people and the economy without holding them responsible (and I'd like to hold them accountable too, but that's a tougher ticket to punch). They don't deserve to go un-noticed IMO, and giving them a curtain to hide behind with "supply/demand" written on it is not a good thing.

If there is something they have done illegally, then absoloutely. I have a problem going after a corporation because they are currently in demand and are turning a profit. Even what someone else considers an unfair profit. Honestly in my opinion I think we should drill here, import bio fuel from columbia and check out the pickens plan though Id rather Govt not be involved. Honestly if a country or entity refuses to sell us their export of oil because we produce our own so be it.

Two things though. Our subsadies to my knowlege are going to farmers to pay them not to grow crops so they dont flood the market with food. Now I may be wrong but what if those crops they arent growing were turned into bio fuel? To me importing biofuel from another country may be a way to increase our options of what nations we do deal with until we can achieve energy independence on our own.


The only thing I ask you to reconsider in your post above is my use of the car you mention. The fact is that I MUST go to work. I can not stop driving to work - that is not a decision I can make with any other choices to evaluate.

No, you choose wisely to go to work. You chose to either have a job/line of work where you could not telecomute or to actually drive rather than telecomute. BTW if you can telecomute Id advise against it. When it comes time for promotions, all things considered bosses generally promote those they ve seen physically rather than someone just behind a screen. You chose to drive rather than take mass transit, or to live in a place where there was no mass transit. You probably drive yourself rather than carpool as I did until I got tired of feeling like my supervisor was going to get me killed in a wreck. That and it added 30 minutes to my hour and 15min one way drive at the time.


Having said that, I CAN choose what to drive to work. That is where the decision between the 5.0 and the 2.3 comes in, and I have made that choice. I am financially able to drive either one, and/or park the other too. I made my decision based on economics and good business sense - nothing more. BUT, as a result of my decision, my personal DEMAND for fuel has in fact DECREASED, but it has certainly not gone away. And THAT is where the argument starts to fall apart.

Youre loosing me a bit on the Demand "gone away" part. You still want the oil but it has hit a price point where you are not willing to purchase it past what you need to get to work. At the higher pricepoint you arent willing to buy as much. I understand you want more and are pissed that you are buying less at a higher pricepoint as most people are me included. But that sounds like supply and demand to me. With the kind of demand comming from China, I do understand it is currently a sellers market right now. That does not mean the laws are not in play.


Gasoline is not a commodity that we have other options for (It's not like choosing to stop eating Oreos and buy Fig Newtons instead). It fuels our economy - single-handedly. It is critical to our very existence as a civilized nation. No matter how little I drive personally


... It is because of this exceptional dependency on fuel that the laws of free trade and capitalism begin to break down and look more like the model laws of a monopoly - in which the holder of the supply controls both supply, AND demand too as a result of controlling supply. Throw in the use of crude for plastics, petroleum jelly, lubricants, etc and it gets even worse.

We can drill here. We can import biofuel. I think anyway. Thats my idea that I havent heard anyone else say. There is a 40k Volt you can plug in in about 2 years. Im sure it will be a nice car but personally 40k buys a much more desireable Camaro in my book. Im hoping the celebs bite though. There are hybrids all over the place to choose from. Honda has a production fuel cell. You may not like the other choices(I dont) but theyre are some. Also living closer to work like I did cutting my commute from 65 to 30 miles.


Hey - I'm just a goofy engineer - pun intended because I am a funny guy in person - and I may not be the best at explaining the economics behind all of this. If I could explain it perfectly and leave nobody with any questions, I'd probably be rich and working for the money-mongers I hate so much instead of writing a post during an afternoon break at my desk. :D
All I ask is that you not put all the blame for high prices on the "supply/demand" market theory... there's a big hunk of blame that needs to be owned by some incredibly wealthy people who are getting incredibly MORE wealthy from it as witnessed by these record profits and record earnings. That's all I'm saying.

This is where yours and my bias differ. I blame congress. China right now is setting up to drill off the coast of Florida via Cuba taking what we could have had. It bothers me when we tell other countries to produce more but arent willing to tap into our own. If OPEC were a US entity they would be hopefully charged. Now the part where I agree with you is, I dont want the oil companies just to keep it on tap. Maybe the soloution would be only new companies could drill within 50 miles off a coast and oil drilled here stays here? I dont know, Im just a NOC tech. :p


Actually, not such a good choice for an example. I would not begin to try to explain/ask for more because I know the market. I have a local guy right now BEGGING me to buy an '88 GT from him for $2500 cash. It has a built 351 stroked to 408, carbed, world heads, BBK headers, Demon Carb, C/C plates, aftermarket fuel pump and regulator, a 4" cowl hood and a bazzilion other mods. The interior is bone stock save for the big tach and shift light. The car has T-tops and only 80k original miles. AND, it has a bass-boat-looking, strawberry red with metalflake paintjob.:rolleyes: The guy probably has $10k-15k in it not including his time, and he can't sell it. I walk away from SO MANY cars that have been modified because they become an object of desire for the builder, but not the rest of the world. I'd love to have an '88 GT 5-spd with T-Tops and I'd pay $2500 for one today, but not one like this. :no:

I dont know... Sounds like I chose a decent example considering your responce. You know the market but wouldnt ask for more than you think the market would bare even if you chose to be "greedy" and ask for higher than the highest bidder was willing to pay. At the same time that guy sounds like he invested gobs of money and drove up his asking price, but at the same time just because he set that price doesnt meant you had to buy at that price or at all...


As an investor, I practice what you elude to. I buy original and try to keep it "appealing" to all prospective buyers by keeping it desireable to as many potential buyers as possible. I stay in tune with the market, and try to see what people want (can hardly say anyone NEEDS an old ponycar). If I do decide to modify one for myself, I do it FOR myself, to use, not looking to make money off it. I've never sold one that I have modified to date.
Having said this - I do see your point and agree totally about the demand for a unique item - just saying that I am already on the same side of that fence with you.:yes:

Thats how I would do it. Engineering was a feild I considered. The whole magiver type deal, making something out of nothing Ive always thought was neat. I also like the Chip Foose type of deal building amazing cars.

Investors ran to oil and other commodities because they don't think they can make money on the stock market. Again...speculation...

Oil was up $6.67 today and is up around $14 the past 3. Another example of how the bailouts are helping the rich.

I agree with you about the biased nature of news and media these days - no doubt. This topic was covered many pages ago and the media was identified as one of the agents used in the "dumbing-down" of the general public.
Wanna guess who owns NBC, CBS, and ABC? Let's pick on NBC to keep it short...
NBC is owned by General Electric, who is owned by... LINKY (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=GE)
Barclays Global Investors UK Holdings Ltd 381,990,017 / 3.84% / $10,195,313,553
STATE STREET CORPORATION 311,429,539 / 3.13% / $8,312,054,395
VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE) 309,613,503 / 3.11% / $8,263,584,395
Capital World Investors 234,465,455 / 2.36% / $6,257,882,993
Capital Research Global Investors 206,426,600 / 2.08% / $5,509,525,954
Bank of New York Mellon Corporation 158,910,986 / 1.60% / $4,241,334,216
NORTHERN TRUST CORPORATION 129,036,731 / 1.30% / $3,443,990,350
BANK OF AMERICA CORPORATION 114,676,949 / 1.15% / $3,060,727,768
AXA 103,420,961 / 1.04% / $2,760,305,449
WELLINGTON MANAGEMENT COMPANY, LLP 100,911,857 / 1.01% / $2,693,337,463

Will SOMEBODY please go back to post 169 in this thread (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5558822&postcount=169)and tell me who the top 10 holders are in Exxon-Mobil?
(psst - I already did! They are the ones in red above. Cool, huh? 6 of the top ten are the same in both companies.
Know what else, the top 3 are the same top 3 in order for Exxon too.
Did I mention that Barclays UK is into everything before somewhere?
SHOCKING. Simply shocking. :yes: )

Now see... I took something you said, agreed with it, and provided evidence as to WHY I agree with you - right here in this little post. It's really not difficult, and it does wonders for getting folks to understand why I agree with you on this point.

Not sure what to say there. You debated my point better than I did proving youre a better debater which I conceede. Youve put more research into this.



Now, to address the comment about this being "my thread" or how I have an agenda and how I have a campaign to get everyone to vote for "a candidate".

I don't feel this thread belongs to me in any way shape or form. I started it to discuss the huge profits that continuously pour in to big oil, but it turned into how huge profits roll into ANY business that is backed bythe right people - oil is simply one of them. All I have done is committed myself to answer any question or post directed at me. And as usual, I either justify my opinion, or simply provide links, articles, or facts to justify my position. That doens't mean I'm right, or bulletproof, but that I am where I am for some reasons. Surely nobody could think that a 15-year-old kid could have such a view about world policy and finance?!?! That alone shows that my position is one that has changed over the years, and continues to do so as I age and become wiser or presented with more evidence. I have invited you to persuade me to come into your camp too, and I am moveable, but random thoughts (though entertaining or thoughtful) are not typically sufficient to persuade me to abandon facts and evidence.

I dont believe you are unbiased. I believe you made up your mind on this issue or like me have already heard enough to have a fairly solid position well before these threads started. Best way I can put my opinion currently is it seems to me that oil is probably trading below optimal profits for demand. because of that they can raise the prices whenever they feel the need. Be that to cover oil futures, too much investment or because its tuesday, in the end it has to do with they have the demand they need to cover it. To me that doesnt mean that speculation increased fuel prices, but it appears to me that it is possible that conversly trading below what is probably optimal demand can possibly allow some leway on fluctuations to increase prices to cover whatever investments or whatever they feel like. That is to say if speculation caused the increases, than unlimited specilation could cause unlimited profit. I dont believe that to be the case. but its 3:30 AM in the morning I couldnt correct the other post without responding to this. Im not looking for links to back this up. Its my opinon take it as you will

I do agree with somethings you say and have said so

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5592804&postcount=238


My points are "very close to a certain candidate"? And that means I am using this as a rallying point for his/her campaign?!?! Friend, if all I was trying to do was get people to vote for my candidate (of which I don't have one just yet BTW), I could certainly find a better place to spend countless hours of my time trying to win over MAYBE a dozen votes. Look at how many different people have participated in this thread, and how many are on one side or the other already. To think this thread is a campaign tactic for me to get my person elected is utterly ludicrous. And to further discredit your statement about me personally at some risk to myself - I probably own more firearms than you've ever held in your life. My collection spans from 1893 to current year/models. If you don't think that puts me in "the other camp", then your sadly mistaken. I am a registered independent, and I choose the best person for the mission ahead - PERIOD. I can clearly say that I am as "on the fence" as anybody. So I have enough ballz to put my position out in public for you and anyone else to scrutinize - just to show that I am NOT ere with any "agenda", other than to ask folks to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and LOOK AT THE FACTS.
What do you have to show us all, and


what's your "agenda"?

Ive said it before and I said it again, however for the purpose of this I will go into greater detail. I watch CNN 8 hrs a day while at work. I watch Fox at home when I have a choice. On my way to work I listen to Conservative Patriot Wilkow Majority, and on my way home I listen to NRA NEWS. I am a bitter gun owner, who knows that the 2nd amendment was for protection of the people from the government, not for hunting or target shooting.

My agenda was simple. It was to provide an alternative view to what appeared to me to be a one sided campaign passed off as unbiased. . I am biased conservative Ive said before I even started discussing this., Did I do the best job at explaining my point of view or offering another point of view. Absoloutely not. Erics explination on alot of things I agree with went deeper and explained better alot of things I believe and agree with. In fact thats an understatement. Also Ive learned some neat things in this thread but no such evidence to sway the core of what I believe.

I will be man enough to outright appologize for using the term "McCarthyistic" towards you.

Here in NC, the investigation into price-gouging before Ike hit is going up the supply chain another notch.

Apparently, one of the service stations in High Point, NC has produced a document showing that the fuel supplier they buy from refused to make a delivery to them unless they agreed to pay $%.33/gal for it from the fuel supplier. The store owner agreed and was filled-up and billed at $5.33/gal, at which time she set her prices at $5.63/gal at the pumps. She is still facing charges for trying to get $.30/gal when typical profit rates are $.06-$.10/gal, but she has the state attorney general looking into the fuel supplier now.

Heard this on the radio - I'll see if I can get a newspaper link or web link for it soon. I did link to the article where she got subpoena'ed already though...
http://www.wxii12.com/news/17497276/detail.html - "The Grand Central Express located on Surrett Drive in High Point was one of the subpoenaed stations. Owner Anita Swink told WXII 12 news that that she was charging $3.89 per gallon on Friday, but raised the price to $5.63 after her supplier charged her $5.33 per gallon for a new shipment.

Swink said customers complained so she lowered her price to $3.99. She said she is now taking a loss for all of the gasoline she sells."

BTW I agree with this. Price gouging is supply and demand. If some cost legitimately increased I suppose covering it would be understandable, however most cases it doesnt seem like it is and is just wrong. Its 3:50AM I should have been asleep along time ago but had to respond. Sorry about the socialist comment.

To all, beware of Capital One. If you use their cards, pray that nothing ever happens. I have never seen a company use such illegal tactics in my life. They will make your life miserable. Hiring a credit attorney may seem like an option, but they are very expensive, and want their money up front. I know, I tried.


94LightningGal,

You may be particularly interested in a link I posted in the other thread - it has to do with some bank employees blowing the whistle on their insider practices of deepening the debt and stretching the fininces of the payer to benefit the company's profit. It also reveals how they "conceal" the truth about the Soldier's and Sailors Act and don't tell people what discounts or special help they may qualify for - instead they are to take them to the grindstone for blood.

Good read... http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5602900&postcount=280

PP

Ahmadinejad Claims Oil Price Increase 'Fake' :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qraMRI_Qs&feature=related

Ahmadinejad Claims Oil Price Increase 'Fake' :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qraMRI_Qs&feature=related

Nothing new there... other than some reassurance from a prominent political figurehead... which is good for a change. :D