Saturn -- Any thoughts from GM on why it's still failing?

Saturn should be perfectly positioned for the market we're in right now. It has a full lineup of recently designed cars, including one of the best selling small vehicles in Europe. And yet, it's still under performing.

Is there any thought within GM as to how they might fix this?

It seems clear GM needs to do one of two things:

A) Launch a MAJOR ad campaign to trumpet Saturn's product and it's overall fuel efficiency. Is GM trying to answer the age old question of whether a tree fell in the woods if no one was there to hear it? It really amazes me every time I mention Saturn's new product and people react with complete bewilderment. A great number of Saturn's target buyers still think the brand sells plastic-bodied econocars. This is not a matter of buyer perception, mind you. People really don't know Saturn sells the products it does.

B) Give up and spread it's product among the other brands - Astra would surely sell in Chevrolet showrooms even if it were completely unchanged, and Aura would likely see sales gains packaged as a G6 (as it is the aging G6 sells a lot more briskly than the new Aura).

What GM cannot do is simply ignore these figures and continue to pour in the cream of their product crop into their smallest, least known brand.

I just hope the brand's performance does not make the suits think it's not worth investing in good product. You can't expect folks to buy something if they don't know it exists.

I sold Saturns for a little over a year (06-07) so I'll give my thoughts:

-Since I've left, it's good to see they have started to accept the GM card points, that was a major sore spot being we werent as integrated in GM as the other brands.

-The brand has a stigma, (plastic sided crappy integrity economy cars) People are shocked that they cost just as much as any other car.

-They have strayed from their routes: the Relay (POS) and now the Aura/ Outlook seal the deal that they are the same car just re-badged. People know that! Consumers choose a car based on looks a deal.

-The Malibu and Acadia look better!!! and in this tough economy= you can negotiate the price on them. Everyone's looking for a deal! Customers look at you funny trying to sell a $43k Outlook at MSRP, even though that is how they have always been.

As far as I know, Saturn has never turned a profit for GM. They made their mark being the squeeky clean division of car sales appealing to folks who "dont like cars" so that is another hurdle to jump over.

Poor advertising. Vue sells very well, but many people still don't know the Aura and Astra are out there.

On top of that Every car GM sells you can get at any other GM division. Astra is there only real exclusive product and it has to compete with the Vibe and more fuel efficient Cobalt.

The next Aura they better give something the Malibu doesn't have, like a diesel or AWD.

I see zero ads for Saturn... We have posters for Cobalts, other Chevrolets... Where's the poster for the Sky? The Aura? The Astra?

The Astra is a good car for the current state of gas prices... It's quite economic, and is great for city dwellers. Its only competition, it seems, is the new 3- and 5-door Rabbit. I regularly hear advertisements about VW on the radio, yet there's nothing about Saturn.

I'm not GM, but I thought it's worth mentioning that a lot of people I speak to avoid Saturn just because of their no-haggle pricing gimmick. It's not about the cars for them, it about the dealer-experience.
If you're not allowed to bargain, then it must mean you're getting ripped off, right? :rolleyes:

But like many have said already, I see virtually NO ads for the brand. That's the ultimate weak point.

The Astra has always been intended to be pretty low volume - around 20,000 cars a year - at least until they can get them built in North America for the next generation. However, the Astra probably won't make that target. The biggest problems are low awareness, modest gas mileage and price. The Astra is a cool car, but to get one equipped the way I would want one you hit the mid 20s pretty easily. That's a very competitive price point. And if fuel economy is your main concern, the Cobalt XFE gets significantly better highway mileage (36 vs 32) and is a much cheaper car. The Cobalt is also significantly quicker than the Astra. I really want to like the Astra, but it would probably take 0% financing for 60 months before I'd really consider one. GM has no deals on them whatsoever right now. You can get an Aura for way less money.

I agree that their no-haggle up front pricing is a killer for most intelligent consumers... especially with the way car sales are right now. All of GM's other divisions are just about giving SUVs away right now but Saturn lacks the ability to adjust for supply/demand.

Why is everyone assuming that Saturn isn't doing exactly what GM is wanting it to do? You can't really compare G6 sales to Aura sales when Pontiac has far more dealers than Saturn does.

I have 3 Saturn dealers with in about 20 miles from my house. There are 10 Pontiac dealers within 20 miles. I live right in the middle of DFW.

Also, am I the only one that sees Saturn commercials? They had a huge Presidents day sale. They are advertising the Vue a lot. They had commercials with people coming into the lot, seeing the new line up, going back outside to make sure it was a Saturn dealership and coming back inside. The sales people saying, "yeah, we get that a lot."

I haven't seen any numbers on how much money Saturn makes/loses as a brand for GM. If anyone has a profit/loss breakdown by brand, I would be interested in seeing it.

I will say I haven't seen a single commercial for the Astra.


I also think the Aura looks better than the Malibu. Everyone has their own opinion of what looks good, but I know I am not the only one that feels that way. I am really not liking the new chevy face on products.

I think if Saturn loses the no haggle pricing gimmick, that they will do better, but how do we know that they are doing badly?

most of the dealer by me wont haggle to much on price its not even worth it and the cheaper the car the less they are willing to haggle. when i bought my first cobalt they wouldnt take any thing off the car i got them to give me a little more on the trade in.

when i bought my second car i got 3200 off between incentives and gm points and i knew right there and then i really wasn't going to get much i got them to take 200 bucks off and give me back my new snow tires.


my freind who is a import guy just bought a saturn ion he was impressed with the plastic body panels the guy took him out back and let him throw soft balls at a demo car they had on the lot.

the Cobalt XFE gets significantly better highway mileage (36 vs 32) and is a much cheaper car. The Cobalt is also significantly quicker than the Astra.

One review of Astra has 1/4 mi at 16.6 seconds @ 84 mph. Cobalt XFE is optimized for fuel economy, including gearing, I expect it to be slower than regular Cobalt. XFE and Astra are likely very similar in their acceleration capabilities.

Why is everyone assuming that Saturn isn't doing exactly what GM is wanting it to do?

So GM's plan was to dump a bunch of money into the brand with the expectation of watching sales drop 15% since last year? I can't imagine that there's a lot of high-fiving going on at GM headquarters over those numbers.

In articles I've read in Forbes and Auto News, it seems that Troy Clarke is not happy with the latest marketing campaigns.

One review of Astra has 1/4 mi at 16.6 seconds @ 84 mph. Cobalt XFE is optimized for fuel economy, including gearing, I expect it to be slower than regular Cobalt. XFE and Astra are likely very similar in their acceleration capabilities.

XFE only differs in engine calibration, final drive, and low rolling resistance tires. It is still a bigger engine (2.2 vs 1.8) rated at 148 horsepower. I wouldn't anticipate it to be much, if any, slower than a regular cobalt.

This is one of those situations where looking at numbers in terms of what-is-wrong is misleading.

Y-T-D numbers:
Aura sales are up 10% (5k delta volume)
Outlook sales are down 10% (1k delta volume)
Sky sales are down 20% (1k delta volume)

The big difference is GM sold 23k IONs last year, and 230 of them this year, while only adding 3400 Astra sales... so the single car difference is where you make up your entire decline of sales.

The real question is why are the Astras not selling: marketing, availability, price, or a combination of the three? If I had to guess it'd be the second of those three.

The real question is why are the Astras not selling: marketing, availability, price, or a combination of the three? If I had to guess it'd be the second of those three.


Are you sure? I have yet to see a comercial on the Astra. If it weren't for this site, I would not have even know that it existed. I even own a Saturn.

So GM's plan was to dump a bunch of money into the brand with the expectation of watching sales drop 15% since last year? I can't imagine that there's a lot of high-fiving going on at GM headquarters over those numbers.

In articles I've read in Forbes and Auto News, it seems that Troy Clarke is not happy with the latest marketing campaigns.

Year to date sales of every GMNA division is down. Caddy had the least fall of 8%. You can't tell me there was any high-fiving going on at GM HQ over this years numbers so far. I wouldn't say Saturn is a failure because of this.

Saturns cars went up a good bit, and with better advertising of the Astra, probably would have been better. They total cars went down because they quit selling the ION. They took a mild hit in truck sales because their trucks aren't bad. You could consider that the truck fall was only less to Buick, which only sales one truck now and that one wasn't widely available last May.

I think the numbers for Saturn aren't bad compared to the rest of GM. Overall, GM is down 16.1% year to date.

I don't like the no haggle either. The reason why we still got the Aura is employee discount.

XFE only differs in engine calibration, final drive, and low rolling resistance tires. It is still a bigger engine (2.2 vs 1.8) rated at 148 horsepower. I wouldn't anticipate it to be much, if any, slower than a regular cobalt.

Actually, the regular Cobalt LS does the 1/4 mi in 16.6 @ 84 mph, identical to the Astra. The difference is that Astra in the test was manual, Cobalt was auto.

Faster doesn't really enter the realm of differences between these two cars.

Edit: Just did a comparison on GM's site. The Astra begins at about $1500 more MSRP than Cobalt. That's more expensive, for sure, but I don't know if I'd call it significant. It's lighter by 200 lbs, and has more room in every category (head room, shoulder room, front, rear, etc...).

I think the car has great potential, it's essentially like a Cobalt except it's a hatchback. If marketed well, this car would be sold a lot more IMO.

Actually, the regular Cobalt LS does the 1/4 mi in 16.6 @ 84 mph, identical to the Astra. The difference is that Astra in the test was manual, Cobalt was auto.

There are members of CobaltSS.net who have low 16 second timeslips for manuals - high 15s with a lid.

Faster doesn't really enter the realm of differences between these two cars.

In the real world I think it does.

Edit: Just did a comparison on GM's site. The Astra begins at about $1500 more MSRP than Cobalt. That's more expensive, for sure, but I don't know if I'd call it significant.

It's significant when you're paying MSRP for the Astra and you can find Cobalts at invoice. It's significant when GM has 0% for 60 months on Cobalt and there are no deals whatsoever on Astra.

It's lighter by 200 lbs, and has more room in every category (head room, shoulder room, front, rear, etc...).

I really like the Astra, don't get me wrong, I'm a Cobalt AND a Saturn owner, after-all, but I think it's a real shock to the traditional Saturn buyer when the "entry" Saturn goes up several thousand dollars in the course of a year. It will take time for others to discover it and the competition is stiff.

I think the car has great potential, it's essentially like a Cobalt except it's a hatchback. If marketed well, this car would be sold a lot more IMO.

Go read saturnfans.com for a while. There are a lot of longtime Saturn fans there walking away because they think Astra is simply too expensive. And you're not going to convince Mazda3 and Rabbit buyers to look at an Astra overnight.

GM doesn't really understand that brand management is a long-term prospect. This is almost identical to what they did with Oldsmobile, where they threw a bunch of nicer 'euro' products in there one day and then wondered why consumers didn't immediately take notice. People build up these perceptions over decades and they don't just jump just because of one car or one ad campaign. (Especially when the target customer tends to tune-out GM to begin with.)

Now if they're in it for the long-haul, I have no doubt that Saturn will eventually be recognized for producing great cars and great customer service. But IMO it will take several generations of product before the results show up, and GM has to stick to it like they have not in the past.

I sold Saturns for a little over a year (06-07) so I'll give my thoughts:

-Since I've left, it's good to see they have started to accept the GM card points, that was a major sore spot being we werent as integrated in GM as the other brands.

-The brand has a stigma, (plastic sided crappy integrity economy cars) People are shocked that they cost just as much as any other car.

-They have strayed from their routes: the Relay (POS) and now the Aura/ Outlook seal the deal that they are the same car just re-badged. People know that! Consumers choose a car based on looks a deal.

-The Malibu and Acadia look better!!! and in this tough economy= you can negotiate the price on them. Everyone's looking for a deal! Customers look at you funny trying to sell a $43k Outlook at MSRP, even though that is how they have always been.

As far as I know, Saturn has never turned a profit for GM. They made their mark being the squeeky clean division of car sales appealing to folks who "dont like cars" so that is another hurdle to jump over.

I wholeheartedly beleive in the showroom floor experience as a very good focus group, so long as the salesperson giving it is observant and honest with the facts.

I completely agree with this and think this is their biggest problem. The problem is back in the day, Saturn advertising did stick out and was very unique for the time. Along with that you had product that was also 'unique', in terms of looks they were offbeat and quirky.

this image of being the anti-thesis of car companies is engrained in people's minds and that doesn't change from one day to the next. saturn is what you said, the car company for people that don't like cars, and that is an incredible image to have built and will last. it means the cars aren't for serious or mass market purposes, and most people will see it that way for some time to come, and every time they see a Saturn it will be an adjustment.

Making that adjustment visually and having a brand equate with something you might want to spend twenty thousand dollars and double that are two dramatically different things.

other than that, the no haggle policy obviously hurts them in the buying climate today.

I also think the logo and names are a problem too, except Outlook and Astra, which have a cool ring to them. the other names are lame.

It seems Saturn is where Oldsmobile was close to 10 years ago now. Olds had some of the nicest GM products going at the time. The Intrigue was the best of the W-Bodies, and actually beat Accord and Camry in a magazine comparo back then. The Aurora had one of the best GM interiors of the time period. And the Bravada was the best looking GMT-360 to come and go. The new image of Olds never took off. Now Saturn as some of the best styled vehicles inside and out from GM and is having the same problem Olds did, and the lots are packed everywhere.

I drove by Saturn of Louisville a few weeks ago and I bet they had over 50 Auras sitting on the lot. The top end model is a sweet looking car, and I too think its better looking than the Malibu, mainly because it has a better rear end than the Malibu.

I take back my previous comments - according to this thread:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f75/saturn-astra-4-25-gas-306-day-inventory-supply-no-changes-2009-why-65596/

There's a significant supply of Astras on Saturn lots (although I didn't see a link, I'm assuming its true).

I still dont think marketing is the only issue, but based on comments here and in the other thread it must be a significant issue. The Astra starts priced at $2000 more than the 3, price is a little scary.

There's a significant supply of Astras on Saturn lots (although I didn't see a link, I'm assuming its true).

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When I left, they were selling off the rest of the ION's, I remember Saturn sold approximately 100,000 ION's a year at the time, the Astra was only slated to sell about 25,000. WTF they were thinking? a struggling car company going even lower volume? Alot of traditional people will not go for a hatch back, Heck! It was hard enough to convince some of them to part with their SL's for a ION!!!:no:

I have to say, I would buy a Mazda 3 before an Astra.

It seems Saturn is where Oldsmobile was close to 10 years ago now. Olds had some of the nicest GM products going at the time. The Intrigue was the best of the W-Bodies, and actually beat Accord and Camry in a magazine comparo back then. The Aurora had one of the best GM interiors of the time period. And the Bravada was the best looking GMT-360 to come and go. The new image of Olds never took off. Now Saturn as some of the best styled vehicles inside and out from GM and is having the same problem Olds did, and the lots are packed everywhere.

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That is an interesting comparison, I really liked Oldsmobile's, I was sad to see them leave. I always thought Buick (who BTW only offers 3 models right now) would be gone before Olds:(

The Intrigue was ment to capture a "sporty" younger audience, I guess it never happened. Olds had a stigma of a soft riding old person car to many who couldnt afford a Cadillac. Fortunately Cadillac has seen the light and now has totally fixed their brand immage!! I see Young people driving CTS, STS, Escalade and the only old people I see driving Cadillac's now are in the DTS.

The "saturn Transformation" was set to take 3-5 years to kick in from 06 on, I couldnt wait that long (or my bills), My income SUCKED! It will be interesting where they end up.

I take back my previous comments - according to this thread:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f75/saturn-astra-4-25-gas-306-day-inventory-supply-no-changes-2009-why-65596/

There's a significant supply of Astras on Saturn lots (although I didn't see a link, I'm assuming its true).

There's no big shortage, that's for sure. There are 126 Astras currently on the lots at the three Kansas City area Saturn dealers. The dealer we bought our VUE from has 46. They have 14 XR 3 doors, 24 XE 5 doors and 8 XR 5 doors. That's not a huge amount, but with the limited options available on Astra, that's probably enough to find what you're looking for. The premium trim package on 5 door XRs is hard to come by from what I've heard as it was a late build.

By comparison, there are 96 Auras available in the region. Our dealer has 30.

the astra has so much potential too.

I gotta think the major problem is marketing. GM did all those surveys and found that Saturn doesn't have that much negative baggage, but they failed to see the flip side of what that means. In fact, most people have neither a positive nor negative perception of the brand - they barely know what it is. GM can hardly expect to enjoy the fruits of a new car company without actually going out and advertising it.

You can't really compare G6 sales to Aura sales when Pontiac has far more dealers than Saturn does.

Thank you. People are not going to bother buying your cars if you have to drive dozens (if not hundreds) of miles just to see them.

In the greater Detroit area, there are just 6 - six - Saturn dealers. There must be a hundred Chevy dealers in the same radius alone. So, looking at pure sales volume is pretty unfair.

Now, this in no way relieves GM marketing or the brand itself of all criticism. I have absolutely no idea how, or even IF, they are trying to market the Astra. I can't recall seeing a single commercial or print ad for it in this area (outside of a dealer ad buried among all the others in section Z of the Sunday paper).

Astra doesn't have available U.S. Crash test ratings which is why I won't buy one. Although the Opel version has European ratings, I think think its sketchy and wouldn't buy one.

As far as the Astra goes, GM must not be too concerned. They have no financing or cash back incentives on the car at all.

Astra doesn't have available U.S. Crash test ratings which is why I won't buy one. Although the Opel version has European ratings, I think think its sketchy and wouldn't buy one.
Do you really think the people that worry about pedestrian safety in frontal crashes will have "sketchy" crash test standards? European standards are just as comparable to NHTSA or IIHS standards.

Saturn has been doing alot of advertising in south Florida - both TV and radio. Their "Rethink" campaign (which was recently "Rethink American"). Mainly for the Aura and Vue, yet not one peep about the Astra.

The price of the Astra is too high compared to the content available for the Astra.
There is no lease deal for the Astra, so no simple deal there

Astra doesn't have available U.S. Crash test ratings which is why I won't buy one. Although the Opel version has European ratings, I think think its sketchy and wouldn't buy one.

I'm not sure, they are the ones mandating 4" space between the engine and the hood for hit pedestrians, so in some cases their safety standards are somewhat higher (if not more assinine).

I hate the new looks of cars where the hood is so high, it's disproportional.

They need to market the crap out of the Astra. It's GM's best selling automobile in Europe isn't it? Great fuel economy and pretty fun to drive from what I've read.

Dan

Saturn should be perfectly positioned for the market we're in right now. It has a full lineup of recently designed cars, including one of the best selling small vehicles in Europe. And yet, it's still under performing.

Is there any thought within GM as to how they might fix this?

It seems clear GM needs to do one of two things:

A) Launch a MAJOR ad campaign to trumpet Saturn's product and it's overall fuel efficiency. Is GM trying to answer the age old question of whether a tree fell in the woods if no one was there to hear it? It really amazes me every time I mention Saturn's new product and people react with complete bewilderment. A great number of Saturn's target buyers still think the brand sells plastic-bodied econocars. This is not a matter of buyer perception, mind you. People really don't know Saturn sells the products it does.

B) Give up and spread it's product among the other brands - Astra would surely sell in Chevrolet showrooms even if it were completely unchanged, and Aura would likely see sales gains packaged as a G6 (as it is the aging G6 sells a lot more briskly than the new Aura).

What GM cannot do is simply ignore these figures and continue to pour in the cream of their product crop into their smallest, least known brand.

I just hope the brand's performance does not make the suits think it's not worth investing in good product. You can't expect folks to buy something if they don't know it exists.

I think there is one really HUGE item missing here.... Saturn isn't a big division. Think about how many models it has.

The Aura is actually doing well. More were sold (27,000 this year as of June 1st) than the total cars the entire Acura division of Honda sold (just over 20,000).

The Astra had early delivery issues, so there wasn't very many to begin with. The Astra has a starting price of $16,500 for the base model. Cobalts start at $15K even. Ford Focus starts at $14,700. All before discounts and rebates. The subcompact market is driven by the best value. That's why Cobalt has sold over 90,000 cars this year, Ford has sold 105,500 Focus, while Saturn has managed only 3,400 Astras. For May, there were 35,500 Focus & 26,700 Cobalts sold. Saturn sold just under 1100 Astras.

The Saturn Vue is actually doing well. 8300 last month, 36,900 YTD. More than twice the number of any model you name at Lincoln Mercury and nearly 2/3s what the entire Buick division is selling.

The Saturn Outlook (the answer to a question no one asked) saw sales down 38% last month. At a STARTING price of $29,300 it's already pricey (something normally not associated with Saturn). A Ford Edge starts at only $25K. Ford sold 58,700 Edges YTD. A 26% increase. Outlook sold less than 1/4 that number, 11,400 vehicles this year, a 10% drop.

Finally, the Sky, although very stylish, has never sold major league numbers. It's sales have remained pretty steady around the 1100 per month range, occasionally jetting up or down 100 or so models.

That's pretty much it. The entire lineup.

Saturn most certainly isn't getting alot of GM resources. Astra came from Opel, Sky is a reskined fancier Solstice. Outlook is essentially a modified Acadia. The Vue (also from Opel) is doing well, and the only car that GM invested significant money in, the Astra, was mainly a learning experience for GM to improve quality and make a better car. The lessons from Astra spread to other new GM models.

Saturn's problem is that it's moved upscale. It's small cars are expensive yet don't offer much more than a Cobalt or Focus. People will pay above that for a Mini or a niche small car or something that jumps out at you for some reason. But not a mainstream model when the competition offers more value.

Do you really think the people that worry about pedestrian safety in frontal crashes will have "sketchy" crash test standards? European standards are just as comparable to NHTSA or IIHS standards.

Saturn has been doing alot of advertising in south Florida - both TV and radio. Their "Rethink" campaign (which was recently "Rethink American"). Mainly for the Aura and Vue, yet not one peep about the Astra.

I don't know what to think about the safety of the vehicle. No person is going to buy 5, crash test them, then see how it holds up. Because of that, most people, including myself, rely on the government safety ratings.

I'm not sure, they are the ones mandating 4" space between the engine and the hood for hit pedestrians, so in some cases their safety standards are somewhat higher (if not more assinine).

I hate the new looks of cars where the hood is so high, it's disproportional.

I am not sure who mandated the hood space feature but from what I was told, it is much more often that pedestrians get hit in Europe. While that may not be true here we still have different weather, roads, types of drivers etc. Bottom line is that I wouldnt buy a car without checking out the U.S. crash test ratings. That is one of the first things to do.