New Camaro in Road and Track

Have any of you seen the article on the new Camaro in the new Road & Track? Here are some interesting highlights.

Unofficial time on the Nurnberg ring from low 9's to high 8's
SS during the first year with a Z-28 later with the supercharged LS engine.
Looking at adding a turbo 4 cylinder.

I didn't see the article, but there's nothing new there. :)

Yeah not much new info in the articles, but they did photoshop some stripes and badges onto the Camaro seen at the 'ring. Pretty sick looking, I'll try to put up a picture of the cover when I get home...

That 'Ring time better drop pretty considerably through the end of testing to production, because I've gotta say, that's a pretty pedestrian time - even if it was just the DI V6. The Cobalt SS ran under 8:30.....

That 'Ring time better drop pretty considerably through the end of testing to production, because I've gotta say, that's a pretty pedestrian time - even if it was just the DI V6. The Cobalt SS ran under 8:30.....

I agree. The new CTS-V ran a 7:59.32 so I'd think the Z/28 could shave off a few seconds from that time. Low 7:50's :shrug: Weight and balance will dictate a lot.
I'd say if the SS pulls something under 8:10 that would be very respectable.

GM has made it known they do a standing start and run the cars in production trim down to the tires. This isn't Nissan with spec tires, running starts and omitting the last 600ft of track to bring the times in below certain other competitive models.

I agree. The new CTS-V ran a 7:59.32 so I'd think the Z/28 could shave off a few seconds from that time. Low 7:50's :shrug: Weight and balance will dictate a lot.
I'd say if the SS pulls something under 8:10 that would be very respectable.

GM has made it known they do a standing start and run the cars in production trim down to the tires. This isn't Nissan with spec tires, running starts and omitting the last 600ft of track to bring the times in below certain other competitive models.

That should be interesting to see. Weight should be pretty close, with the CTS-V being slightly heavier. The CTS-V will have the advantage of a more sophisticated front suspension and more rigid Sigma architecture though.

Yeah not much new info in the articles, but they did photoshop some stripes and badges onto the Camaro seen at the 'ring. Pretty sick looking, I'll try to put up a picture of the cover when I get home...

Those pics are on their web site

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=6814

There is already a whole thread about this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607150

and to reiterate my concern, if they don't have a V8 under $30,000
they are gonna sell some Mustang GTs' :(

If the 5th gen in top trim can get just close to the low side of 8:00 minutes around the ring then that is huge reason to applaud. Even an 8:30 would be great IMO. Up until a few years ago getting to and besting the 8:00 minute mark in a production car meant you were hauling and the car was totally kick ass.

Remember when the C5 Z broke 8:00 minutes. It was hailed as the greatest Corvette ever to come from GM. The C6 Z's official time is 7:42 and that was with the old rear suspension spring rates. If a 3700+ pound 5th gen records a time within 45 to 30 seconds of that then GM has pulled off another great performer. What does Mustang or Challenger do at Nurburgring? Will they even set wheels there?

If a 3700+ pound 5th gen records a time within 45 to 30 seconds of that then GM has pulled off another great performer.

3700 pounds? You're about 400 pounds light.

I dont think Ford even tests there. Not sure about the Challenger.

There is already a whole thread about this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607150

and to reiterate my concern, if they don't have a V8 under $30,000
they are gonna sell some Mustang GTs' :(

Omg stfu. :mad:






















ps. J/k.
I get flamed when I talk about stuff like that. :D

There is already a whole thread about this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607150

and to reiterate my concern, if they don't have a V8 under $30,000
they are gonna sell some Mustang GTs' :(

Yes we know your concern and it's probably shared by everyone. But all we have to go on is what has been stated. Pricing is one of the last things to be figured before production starts and the Mustang price plan is the target of the Camaro price plan.

So until we get more info what else can be said?

3700 pounds? You're about 400 pounds light.

Until the official weight #'s are released neither nobody knows for sure we just all think we know. Either way 3700 lbs. or 4100 lbs. in 8:15 to 8:30 is still very fast and respectable.

I hope they are smoking crack. If I cant afford a Z-28, I would rather "mortage the farm" on the Dodge equivalent.

The SS should see something in the 8:15 time range and the Z should see something int he 7:50's. Both are realistic and very repsectable times.

Just to compare a M5 is around 8:14, Cobalt SS 8:22 and the HHR SS 8:44.

Anything under 9 min is a good time any lap under 8 min is damn respectable for the Green Hell.

Keep in mind GM does this at the same start and finsih line in production trim and tires all from a standing start.

Only mods are roll bars, safety harness, and so,me telemetry equipment. Un like some MFG who like to sneek in soft slick tires flying starts and other tricks to drop times.

Note the ZR-1 is expected do a 7:20's lap when anounced. they were in the 7:40 range on a wet track in a early test. A GM offical said he expected 7:20 when they were don on a dry track.

The GT-R just did 7:25 but I have not see if it was a standing start or stock trim.

As for Camaro Weight It should be under 4000 but not by much. It is smaller than the G8 and the G8 is right at 4000. You can do the math on a shorter car from there.

anywhere near 4000 pounds and this car will lose a lot of appeal. if a portly 4th gen was 3400-3500 pounds, and current mustang gt is 3500 pounds this car better be in the same (or less) ballpark.

anywhere near 4000 pounds and this car will lose a lot of appeal. if a portly 4th gen was 3400-3500 pounds, and current mustang gt is 3500 pounds this car better be in the same (or less) ballpark.

I hate to break it to you but in all likeliness the base V8 will be around 3900 with the top dog being around 4100. There was never a snowball's chance in hell that GM could get 3500 out of the Zeta Arch.

If you want a 3500lbs 400+ HP car the MY2011 Mustang might be your only affordable option. Assuming the rumors pan out...which they might not. Cars are getting fatter, damned greenies and hippies keep feeding them.

I hate to break it to you but in all likeliness the base V8 will be around 3900 with the top dog being around 4100. There was never a snowball's chance in hell that GM could get 3500 out of the Zeta Arch.

If you want a 3500lbs 400+ HP car the MY2011 Mustang might be your only affordable option. Assuming the rumors pan out...which they might not. Cars are getting fatter, damned greenies and hippies keep feeding them.

The Mustang won't be 3500 either. They're already at 3550 now. Add a 4 valve top half and a TR6060 to handle the power and you'd be looking at 3675 assuming everything else on the car stayed the same.

I hate to break it to you but in all likeliness the base V8 will be around 3900 with the top dog being around 4100. There was never a snowball's chance in hell that GM could get 3500 out of the Zeta Arch.

If you want a 3500lbs 400+ HP car the MY2011 Mustang might be your only affordable option. Assuming the rumors pan out...which they might not. Cars are getting fatter, damned greenies and hippies keep feeding them.

really you could have that today.....provided you dont blak at premium gas. 08 GT with frpp supercharger. Factory warranty and 400hp+ with non intercooled option. No warranty ar 500+.

3700 pounds? You're about 400 pounds light.

we're talking Camaro, not Challenger.

:)

fyi... per Bret Vivian, who was in the passenger seat... they hit some snow squals when lapping the 'ring.

we're talking Camaro, not Challenger.

:)

So, you're saying that the Z/28 won't be over 4000 pounds?

The Mustang won't be 3500 either. They're already at 3550 now. Add a 4 valve top half and a TR6060 to handle the power and you'd be looking at 3675 assuming everything else on the car stayed the same.

little birdies have been saying that the mustang is going on a diet. aiming to shave 200 off. hopefully it'll happen.

So, you're saying that the Z/28 won't be over 4000 pounds?

I'd interpret that as a yes.

So, you're saying that the Z/28 won't be over 4000 pounds?

Could be some hair splitting. The Challenger is listed at about 4100+
3700 + 400 = 4100.

So, you're saying that the Z/28 won't be over 4000 pounds?
Maybe he is talking about the SS which is the 'new' Z28. ;)

Yes we know your concern and it's probably shared by everyone. But all we have to go on is what has been stated. Pricing is one of the last things to be figured before production starts and the Mustang price plan is the target of the Camaro price plan.

So until we get more info what else can be said?

Well, it's just a concern based on the article which stated that the V8 SS will
be in the mid-to upper-$30,000 range and based on what we've heard that they will be offering initially the LS, LT and SS. With the LS and LT being V6's that
leaves only the SS at that much higher price. Yes I know there is much speculation, I'm just hoping GM is listening and I'm sure they will, it's just that
I saw the article with their speculated pricing and it really got under my skin. :)

Well, it's just a concern based on the article which stated that the V8 SS will
be in the mid-to upper-$30,000 range and based on what we've heard that they will be offering initially the LS, LT and SS. With the LS and LT being V6's that
leaves only the SS at that much higher price. Yes I know there is much speculation, I'm just hoping GM is listening and I'm sure they will, it's just that
I saw the article with their speculated pricing and it really got under my skin. :)

Yea the weight rumors have raised my eyebrows too. The Indy show is going to be very interesting. This car is on the verge of greatness but it's going to need some help to make it. I know that GM wants to bring out the lightest, quickest, and cheapest Camaro. But with the Zeta platform and some other current issues for them today we'll have to see how far from what we/they wanted to what we get.

I hate to break it to you but in all likeliness the base V8 will be around 3900 with the top dog being around 4100. There was never a snowball's chance in hell that GM could get 3500 out of the Zeta Arch.

If you want a 3500lbs 400+ HP car the MY2011 Mustang might be your only affordable option. Assuming the rumors pan out...which they might not. Cars are getting fatter, damned greenies and hippies keep feeding them.

this is something that has worried me from the very start of the 5th gen design - the size and weight. i lost interest in the gto because of it's 3900 pounds, and i'll likely lose interest in the 5th gen if it comes in heavier than my 4th gen which is already too bulky at 3500.

seriously, if the new 5th gen comes in at 4000pounds, i'll take the money i have for the camaro down payment and throw in a 425 hp motor on my 4th gen and keep it.

I hope they are smoking crack. If I cant afford a Z-28, I would rather "mortage the farm" on the Dodge equivalent.

What Dodge equivilent??? Certainly not the 400hp SVT Challenger which I would think would be more compareable to the lower model SS around 400hp only heavier.

So, you're saying that the Z/28 won't be over 4000 pounds?

If I can't get a 300hp+ version @36xx pounds or less (turbo 6 is fine with me) with the sporty suspension package I'll look elsewhere. Don't care what wizardry they pull with gearing, cylinder deactivation, direct injection, suspension tuning, wide tires etc. It'll still get middle of the road fuel economy and whisper "im a fat ass" in my ear every time I take it to the twisties or autocrossing, even if it pulls good numbers. Even if it IS beautiful.

10 years from now I hope to get myself in a vastly downsized 3200-3300lb version of the camaro, with excellent styling and a nice strong turbo-6 motor. I really (REALLY) hope that I get to spend 3 or 4 of those years happily waiting in an RS 5th gen.

Part of me is happy that all the auto manufacturers are getting spanked by these new mileage laws. It's going to force them to build smaller, significantly lighter vehicles. That's the kind of vehicle I prefer. I HATE the constant bloat that every single make and model has undergone since I got my license at 14. A 3200lb rear wheel drive car with 260hp and minus a bunch of crappy interior gizmos that only mean it needs service more often is so much more appealing to me than a 3800lb 400hp car. So. Much. Pony cars started life as COMPACTS, way back. It's about time they return to that classification. Small car, grunty engine, rear wheel drive, aggressive styling. If I really want 400hp I can turn to the aftermarket after enjoying the first 3 years of my car in it's stock configuration.

This isn't meant to be a negative post, or to hate on the 5th gen. It'll undoubtedly be an awesome car, extremely enjoyable, and we know it's pretty. But I have a thing about weight, I don't like it, I don't like how it makes a car feel, even if you compensate with extra wide tires and good tuning. Transitions and especially low speed maneuvers suffer greatly with weight, and I spend my time on actual roads, not on 100mph sweepers. And I don't get free gas.

Hell, it's almost to the point that I'm tempted to buy a 3000lb foxbody and put 10k into a suspension/body/engine makeover and have myself a ball. Or maybe a nice 4th gen, with the same treatment. I wonder what one of those would do with one of GM's new turbo-6s and an upgraded suspension? You can make them look pretty damn nice.

But I want a 5th gen. It's so damn beautiful.

But I want a 5th gen. It's so damn beautiful.


I agree with most of your post. I want a 5th gen too. But I won't buy one at anything around TWO TONS. I've virtually written it off. End of story. :(

Yeah, 3200lb and 260hp would be great if it were possible with crash standards. Its not just feature bloat......which is pretty much demanded these days due to imports making them standard. To get a 3200lb car that passes crash tests and fits drivers over 6' without exotic expensive materials would be a major engineering accomplishment. Look at the 300hp japanese awd drive twins. They are around 3200lbs, pretty tiny and expensive. My daily driver is 3300lb 170hp subaru 08 legacy. It's an ok car but if I could get awd + 30+mpg in something that did not require me to squeeze myself in I would jump on it. The GT version is much faster but weighs about 200lbs more.

FYI, I was just reading an article comparing the GT-r, M3 and the 911. All sports cars with 400hp+ and little to no room in the back seat. They all weigh 3700 to 4000lbs. Its not easy to give you guys what you want. And it would sure be a lot more expenseive.

This isn't meant to be a negative post, or to hate on the 5th gen. It'll undoubtedly be an awesome car, extremely enjoyable, and we know it's pretty. But I have a thing about weight, I don't like it, I don't like how it makes a car feel, even if you compensate with extra wide tires and good tuning. Transitions and especially low speed maneuvers suffer greatly with weight, and I spend my time on actual roads, not on 100mph sweepers. And I don't get free gas.

Hell, it's almost to the point that I'm tempted to buy a 3000lb foxbody and put 10k into a suspension/body/engine makeover and have myself a ball. Or maybe a nice 4th gen, with the same treatment. I wonder what one of those would do with one of GM's new turbo-6s and an upgraded suspension? You can make them look pretty damn nice.

But I want a 5th gen. It's so damn beautiful.

I agree and will need to judge the 5th Gen in production trim with many questions answered. I don't know if anything I've seen, read or heard via rumor is a deal breaker at this point but when it's all put together and sitting in front of me I'll be able to make a better choice. Interior, curb weight and sticker price are points of interest right now.

One thing is for sure with the high price of gas. Lots of nice V8 4th Gen F-bodies are on the market because they are seen as gas pigs. I'll tell ya a nice 01-02 SS or WS6 convert with a six-speed is a very tempting car if the 5th gen isn't worth the price of admission.

Maybe he is talking about the SS which is the 'new' Z28. ;)

Are we sure about that pecking order?

That is

1. V6 coupe
2. SS with LS3
3. Z/28 with LSA (or other S/C variant)

In the past, the SS always had the top engine. In the distant past, the SS had the big, honkin' engine, and the Z/28 had the revver. It was about 200 pounds lighter than the big block SS.

It seems most likely that the SS will be a naturally aspirated V8 and the Z28 will be the supercharged Camaro that is more or less the Chevy version of the GT500. My point was that since the SS will be lighter and naturally aspirated it is almost more like the original Z28 than the 2 ton blown one will be. Which is sort of amusing in an a way since those guys were adamant that the early Z was the ultimate Camaro and as such the new top dog should be the Z28, and they really wanted a Z06 Camaro treatment. Looks like the top one will at least be called Z28 but it got the GT500 treatment, not the Z06 treatment.

It seems most likely that the SS will be a naturally aspirated V8 and the Z28 will be the supercharged Camaro that is more or less the Chevy version of the GT500. My point was that since the SS will be lighter and naturally aspirated it is almost more like the original Z28 than the 2 ton blown one will be. Which is sort of amusing in an a way since those guys were adamant that the early Z was the ultimate Camaro and as such the new top dog should be the Z28, and they really wanted a Z06 Camaro treatment. Looks like the top one will at least be called Z28 but it got the GT500 treatment, not the Z06 treatment.

Interesting.

If there had been an LS6 Camaro in 1970, would that have been the ultimate Camaro, or would it have been the Z28 with the LT1?

In 1969, I'd say that the COPO 427 was the ultimate Camaro, not the Z28, but it would depend on what your measuring stick is.

Once the big blocks were gone, the confusion was gone.

But now, with superchargers, it's back. And yes, things are reversed.

I scanned the article from the magazine:
http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/830/f8a6408291648.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f8a6408291648) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/830/55e7638291650.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/55e7638291650) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/830/1e1d5c8291651.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1e1d5c8291651) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/830/4db6a58291652.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/4db6a58291652) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/830/c128268291653.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/c128268291653)

pics look gorgeous.....love everything (but those kmart looking reverse lights).

R&T didn't fix the headlights? :lol: Now how can anyone take anything they put in writing as valid? :p