Chevrolet Plants Closing? Where will the Camaro be born?

I saw in the news today that the Oshawa Plant in Canada is closing, what does that mean for the Camaro.:confused: Are they just closing the Pick-up/SUV sections of those plants or are they completely shutting them down.:cry: If so where will the car be built and what is gonna happen to the Autoworkers.

Which Oshawa plant? There's more than one there.

edit: found a link, it's the truck plant, not the car plant, Camaro is safe

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200806031209DOWJONESDJONLINE000381_FORTUNE5.htm

With regard to the plant closing in Oshawa.

"We are not going to allow this to happen," Hargrove said Tuesday, adding that he is reviewing all options including a strike. "There is no justification for this to happen and we aren't going to take this laying down."

Does this mean a strike could shut down the Camaro plant? I bet it would.:(

Yup, I got an e-mail from my g/f ... her Dad works (worked? :rolleyes: ) at the Oshawa truck plant. Apparently 4 truck plants were on the chopping block, Oshawa being 1 of them. I guess the only options are: attempt to get a transfer into the car plant, take a package, or retire?! :shrug:

I can't imagine they'd de-rail the Camaro in the Oshawa car plant at this point in the game? :confused: ..... but then again, nobody saw this truck plant closure coming either :rolleyes:.

Bummer either way :(.

Camaro is safe. This is a shift away from truck/suv production due to significantly diminished demand.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080603/BUSINESS01/80603053

I saw in the news today that the Oshawa Plant in Canada is closing, what does that mean for the Camaro.:confused: Are they just closing the Pick-up/SUV sections of those plants or are they completely shutting them down.:cry: If so where will the car be built and what is gonna happen to the Autoworkers.

The Oshawa car plant is NOT included in the list of closings, and is safe pretty much for the entire run of the 5th gen Camaro which should be about 4-5 years. There is also additional product that is to be made there within the next couple of years.

The Oshawa car plant also makes the Impala. At over quarter million per year made and sold, and an exclusive right to make the car, you know that plant isn't going to be closing anytime soon.

Keep in mind that at the moment, Canada is the most expensive place in the world to make an automobile. The Canadian dollar is 1 to 1 with the US dollar, and just about all advantages of producing a car in Canada over the US (lower wages, healthcare covered by the government, etc...) has all but disappeared due to the US dollar tanking.

Truck sales are down more or less permanently, and buyers infatuation with big SUVs is apparently over. Given a choice between closing one of 2 plants capable of making the same truck, one in the US and one in Ontario, Ontario had the bigger reason to close.

it only makes sense that the truck plants will start to close, Who can afford to gas up the trucks righ tnow, I know It cost us $77 to fill up 19 gallons on my truck the other day & that was with gas prices at $4.14 a gallon.

The truck/SUV productions will slow down & the car small compact will pick up.


Stop thinking everytime something happens in GM that they are going to screw with the Camaro project.

Keep in mind that at the moment, Canada is the most expensive place in the world to make an automobile. The Canadian dollar is 1 to 1 with the US dollar, and just about all advantages of producing a car in Canada over the US (lower wages, healthcare covered by the government, etc...) has all but disappeared due to the US dollar tanking.
Sucks for anyone who has made a living in the automotive manufacturing business in Canada :rolleyes:. Gone are the days when getting a job with GM was considered a GOOD thing! :( It's really too bad. It's also going to put a real bad hurt on the City of Oshawa, the surrounding area, feeder companies (ie: Lear seating) and probably bankrupt a few people in the process. The real estate market is going to take a kick in the nads (although for anyone NOT affected by the GM situation, there will probably be some pretty good deals to be found :rolleyes: ).

Don't know when/where/how this hole got dug, but it's pretty deep, and I don't see things turning around anytime soon.

Well, hopefully the Camaro can be a big success, sell lots of units, and hopefully the Impala continues to do well until they decide what to do in terms of replacing/re-modelling it ..... hopefully it can remain in Oshawa in the future? :shrug:

I'm also curious if/what else may fill the remaining capacity of the car plant. I'm sure there's still more capacity than just the ~250k Impalas and ~100k Camaros? :think:

The real estate market is going to take a kick in the nads (although for anyone NOT affected by the GM situation, there will probably be some pretty good deals to be found :rolleyes: ).

hey don't you roll your eyes at me! i'll be looking soon and i want a cheap house.:D

Camaro is safe. This is a shift away from truck/suv production due to significantly diminished demand.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080603/BUSINESS01/80603053


I think your missing my point. If they strike to protest the closing of the truck plant then I think the Camaro may become a bargaining chip for the workers in Oshawa.

I think your missing my point. If they strike to protest the closing of the truck plant then I think the Camaro may become a bargaining chip for the workers in Oshawa.

This is one fight the CAW is going to lose on, if they win and GM doesn't close the plants then they will be building vehicles that don't sell and GM will lose the NA market and they lose their jobs. If they strike the only profitable stuff GM does make (impala, camaro, etc..) then GM will lose NA sales market and they all lose their jobs anyway.

GM may take a financial hit for it, but its going to happen regardless of what the CAW thinks.

This is one fight the CAW is going to lose on, if they win and GM doesn't close the plants then they will be building vehicles that don't sell and GM will lose the NA market and they lose their jobs. If they strike the only profitable stuff GM does make (impala, camaro, etc..) then GM will lose NA sales market and they all lose their jobs anyway.

GM may take a financial hit for it, but its going to happen regardless of what the CAW thinks.

I am sure the CAW guys don't care what they build, as long as they are building something. With these closings, I bet working at the camaro plant is the place they want to be right now. It sounds like there are too few assembly jobs to go around with the truck plant closing. I am not worried about the camaro being built. I am worried about a delay in manufacturing. We are getting close to production time and this is exactly what GM doesn't need so close to a launch of a new car. I am keeping my fingers crossed that we still get the car in Feb.

I think your missing my point. If they strike to protest the closing of the truck plant then I think the Camaro may become a bargaining chip for the workers in Oshawa.

Doesn't quite work that way.

If they do strike, it'll probably wind up in the courts. The CAW already signed a contract with GM.

What will happen is much the same as what happened with Ste Therese. GM will work with them to find another use for the plant both within GM and with another potential buyer. If that doesn't happen, then GM will work to place most of the workers, and that will be pretty much the end of it.

sselie posted this over on chirpthird after seeing the story on local news this evening


Oshawa plant to get new vehicle

On the same day of the plant closure announcement, CTV News has confirmed GM will bring a new fuel-efficient vehicle into production at the Oshawa flex plant.

The car will be front-wheel drive and production will begin in about three years, at about the same time the plant will stop producing the Chevrolet Impala, CTV Toronto's Paul Bliss reported.

GM Canada vice-president David Paterson confirmed to CTV News the new product is coming to the flex plant.

Without the replacement product, some 1,200 jobs could have been lost, Bliss said.

Meanwhile, Premier Dalton McGuinty said Tuesday the government will try to recoup part of a $175-million loan to General Motors earlier than planned in the wake of the automaker's decision to close plants.

McGuinty said the loss of jobs likely means GM will be in violation of one of the conditions of the loan guarantee.

"Our sense is at this point that they will be, and if so, there are specific provisions under the contract that we will seek to enforce,'' he said.

The province invested $235 million with GM's Beacon project in 2005, $60 million of which went to universities for research and development and the balance to GM for its Oshawa operation.

The agreement included minimum job levels at the truck plant, the premier said.

The government won't be able to determine exactly how much it will expect GM to pay back until 2013, when the long-term contract is completed, officials said.

GM, however, argued it is not in violation of the agreement.

"This announcement alone does not tip us over or violate the covenant,'' said GM vice-president Troy Clarke. "Whatever the fact of the matter is, we will live up to our obligations under the Beacon agreement.''

Doesn't quite work that way.

If they do strike, it'll probably wind up in the courts. The CAW already signed a contract with GM.

What will happen is much the same as what happened with Ste Therese. GM will work with them to find another use for the plant both within GM and with another potential buyer. If that doesn't happen, then GM will work to place most of the workers, and that will be pretty much the end of it.

It actually can happen that way. A number of things could potentially happen. 1st it could get resolved later today at the meeting in Detroit. 2nd it doesn't get resolved and the current protest escalates into a wildcat. 3rd and what is a very likely senario is that there is a strike in September. The current collective agreement is in effect until Sept. at which time the newly signed agreement takes over. However, with the Unions positition that the contract was negotiated in bad faith, they may take the position that it is null and void and be in a strike position. Also, there is plenty of time for this to go to an arbitrator for a decision on whether GM's actions constitute bad faith bargaining. In the end, any strike would shut down all of GM Oshawa, truck plant, car plant 2, and the flexplant. Any prolonged shutdown would almost guarantee a delay in the SOP of the Camaro as well as delivery dates.

Doesn't quite work that way.

If they do strike, it'll probably wind up in the courts. The CAW already signed a contract with GM.
It actually can happen that way. A number of things could potentially happen. 1st it could get resolved later today at the meeting in Detroit. 2nd it doesn't get resolved and the current protest escalates into a wildcat. 3rd and what is a very likely senario is that there is a strike in September.
I think you're both right ;).

I can see things getting pretty ugly over the next few months. Whether they continue with the current protests they're doing, do a wildcat strike, or strike in September based on a contract signed in bad faith, the union certainly isn't going to roll over and let this slide without at least putting up a fight first. It doesn't mean it will get them ANYWHERE, but given all of the circumstances of late, they're obviously going to be p'd.

Now, once all the dust settles and the decision to close the plant stands, THEN GM will do as they did with Ste. Therese, and try to relocate as many of the employees as they can. I know that there is a BIG push to send off as many people as they can with voluntary separation packages & (early) retirement. If some of the guys who are within their last ~couple/few years could be wise with their money, they could take the package and leave now, and leave more jobs open to the younger/junior workforce so that as few people as possible have to be laid off.

For now, it's a "wait and see" what's going to happen. While of course I want to defend my home town and say "leave the Oshawa plant open", I realize that that's being pretty selfish/self-centered, as there are other plants closing too. So conceding that GM is going to do what they are going to do, I just hope that not too many jobs are lost as a result of all this ... in the long run, it's probably best for the old-timers to take the money and run, and leave jobs for the younger workers.

I ****ing hate Auto unions so much.

They are ruining the American automakers.

Not to mention, CAW is a bunch of *******s too.

I ****ing hate Auto unions so much.

They are ruining the American automakers.

Not to mention, CAW is a bunch of *******s too.
Who pi$$ed in your Cornflakes??? :think: :irk:

How is ANY of this the unions' (UAW / CAW) fault??? :confused: The truck market is tanking because of artificially high gas prices and a rapid decline in sales, and you're pi$$ed off at a bunch of people who are at the mercy of the GIANT corporation of General Motors?? :confused: :shrug:

Yeah, I value your opinion :rolleyes:. Get real buddy :no:.

I am all for Unions but the UAW,CAW have to remember it’s not the 90's anymore , and have to learn to give a little. Its GM was making record breaking profits I could understand, but are having record breaking losses instead and the Union is going have to recognize that. If GM could keep anyone in a job they would, but they have to jettison some weight to keep the boat a float or else the whole ship will sink.

How is ANY of this the unions' (UAW / CAW) fault??? :confused: The truck market is tanking because of artificially high gas prices and a rapid decline in sales, and you're pi$$ed off at a bunch of people who are at the mercy of the GIANT corporation of General Motors?? :confused: :shrug:

Umm......actually the fact they are protesting and threatening strike is very much the union's fault. You're right in pointing out that the truck market has tanked - it sure has. GM is making an adjustment because of that. It's not good for anyone, not the for the company, not for the suppliers and not for the union members. BUT, they don't have to protest - and they don't have act as though they are entitled to their jobs no matter what. The market changed and some folks are losing their jobs - it's unfortunate and anyone in any industry is in the same situation.

And as far as GIANT General Motors........so they're a big company, so what? People always act like GM is some faceless building someplace where a handful of stuffed suits collect billions of dollars.....guess what? :no: It's not. For every executive they have, they have (probably) 1,000 other employees. There are engineers, factory workers, accountants, assistants, co-ops, technicians....TONS of people. GIANT GM just means there are a ton of people that make it work and move. Those people aren't slaves, and those people aren't oppressed. 90% of the people there are proud and happy to be there and are committed, dedicated people. They're not at the "mercy" of anyone - just ask them. :think:

Umm......actually the fact they are protesting and threatening strike is very much the union's fault. ..... BUT, they don't have to protest - and they don't have act as though they are entitled to their jobs no matter what. The market changed and some folks are losing their jobs - it's unfortunate and anyone in any industry is in the same situation.
Whether having an organized protest is "necessary" or not doesn't change the fact that all of the workers in Oshawa are VERY bitter over the fact that within a couple short years, GM and the local gov't went from committing A LOT of money into the Oshawa plant(s), they built a huge new paint facility, ... heck, they're even in the midst of building a brand new interchange off the highway leading directly to the plant!! My point is, job security looked pretty good not that long ago. AND THEN they announced a lot of cuts LAST YEAR. AND THEN the American Axle strike happened, and they cut the 3rd shift at the truck plant (then they shut down completely during the strike). NOW, they JUST got back to work, JUST signed a contract agreement, AND THEN GM announced "guess what, we're shutting you (truck plant) down COMPLETELY!"

Keep in mind a couple of things:

- Oshawa also used to have ANOTHER plant that was shut down a few years ago (yup, that resulted in lots of job losses)
- the unions HAVE made several concessions to GM, in terms of wages, benefits, etc.

How many more cuts are the workers supposed to "accept" until you think they can get angry and protest? :shrug: I'm not disputing that GM/sales may be in bad shape, but the line workers are not in control of the company, the money, the power, etc. They are just the blue-collar "people" who require a job to make a living, and have been relying on their job with GM for many, many years now.

And now GM is taking that away.

And as far as GIANT General Motors........so they're a big company, so what? People always act like GM is some faceless building someplace where a handful of stuffed suits collect billions of dollars.....guess what? :no: It's not. ..... They're not at the "mercy" of anyone - just ask them. :think:
Dude, c'mon! :rolleyes: They are a corporate giant, with LOTS and LOTS of money (although it's declining), but you KNOW that the FEW people at the top (the ones in control) will always look out for Number 1 (themselves) first. The whole company could come crashing down, or at the very least, be whittled away to next to nothing. The blue-collars can be cut, cut, cut, but the few white-collars at the top won't be forced out of a job in the same manner.

Big corporation political B.S. Union or no union, it sucks when you rely on your company for a job, and then they tell you one day "no more job" :(.

I think another thing that is probably leaving a bit of bitter taste in peoples' mouths is, GM isn't halting production of trucks altogether. No, just a few of the plants. I don't know how many truck plants in total GM operates, but remember, Oshawa has been ranked number one (or damn close to #1) for many years now in terms of quality and productivity. If you had to decide which of your many plants to shut down, would you choose one of your best ones?? :rolleyes: But GM did, and instead, they're going to maintain production in Mexico!! :irk:

Is this sounding less like "we're in big trouble" and more like a plain slap-in-the-face to you yet?? :shrug: At least that's the way it comes across. Rewarding your high-quality, productive workers with NO JOB (unless they want to move to Mexico ;)).

It sucks man!

(...and I'm not even an employee there ... but I live here ... I know the people ... I know the circumstances ... I know the emotion ... I know the impact this has ... and I know the impression it gives people to know that they're being put out of a job that they've had for X-number of years, while some person in a foreign country gets to keep their job that they wouldn't even have if the domestic company hadn't built the empire that they did in the first place).

/rant :cool:

I think another thing that is probably leaving a bit of bitter taste in peoples' mouths is, GM isn't halting production of trucks altogether. No, just a few of the plants. I don't know how many truck plants in total GM operates, but remember, Oshawa has been ranked number one (or damn close to #1) for many years now in terms of quality and productivity. If you had to decide which of your many plants to shut down, would you choose one of your best ones?? :rolleyes: But GM did, and instead, they're going to maintain production in Mexico!! :irk:

Is this sounding less like "we're in big trouble" and more like a plain slap-in-the-face to you yet?? :shrug: At least that's the way it comes across. Rewarding your high-quality, productive workers with NO JOB (unless they want to move to Mexico ;)).

It sucks man!

(...and I'm not even an employee there ... but I live here ... I know the people ... I know the circumstances ... I know the emotion ... I know the impact this has ... and I know the impression it gives people to know that they're being put out of a job that they've had for X-number of years, while some person in a foreign country gets to keep their job that they wouldn't even have if the domestic company hadn't built the empire that they did in the first place).

/rant :cool:isn't the plant in mexico going too?

isn't the plant in mexico going too?
One of them. I'm assuming there are more. Unless the local union president had his facts messed up, he made a comment something to the effect of "our trucks are moving to Mexico" ...

... obviously there are still going to be truck plants running in the US and, I'm assuming, Mexico? :shrug:

I think another thing that is probably leaving a bit of bitter taste in peoples' mouths is, GM isn't halting production of trucks altogether. No, just a few of the plants. I don't know how many truck plants in total GM operates, but remember, Oshawa has been ranked number one (or damn close to #1) for many years now in terms of quality and productivity. If you had to decide which of your many plants to shut down, would you choose one of your best ones?? :rolleyes: But GM did, and instead, they're going to maintain production in Mexico!! :irk:

Is this sounding less like "we're in big trouble" and more like a plain slap-in-the-face to you yet?? :shrug: At least that's the way it comes across. Rewarding your high-quality, productive workers with NO JOB (unless they want to move to Mexico ;)).

It sucks man!

(...and I'm not even an employee there ... but I live here ... I know the people ... I know the circumstances ... I know the emotion ... I know the impact this has ... and I know the impression it gives people to know that they're being put out of a job that they've had for X-number of years, while some person in a foreign country gets to keep their job that they wouldn't even have if the domestic company hadn't built the empire that they did in the first place).

/rant :cool:

The Union employees in almost any US company need to wake up and smell the coffee in this day and age, the "gravy train" has left the station and is not likely to return anytime soon. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but all the years of bloated salary increases, health care, etc. have taken their toll on many companies, quite frankly they cannot afford to keep on paying those salaries and benefits. Yes, there have been concessions made, just like there have been concessions and job losses in almost every major industry. You try to make GM the "villan", perhaps you need to point the finger instead at the tree hugging environmentalists that have persuaded our Congress to pass laws prohibiting drilling in large known oil reserves and also passing environmental restrictions that have prevented the building of any new refineries in over 30 years. If we drilled 10,000 new wells tomorrow, we couldn't do much with it as our refineries are already operating at 100% plus capacity. That's why gas prices have gone out of site, in turn strangling the US truck market, which in turn has caused layoffs and plant closings (yes, in Canada, the US, and other countries). I sympathize with the people you know that are losing their jobs, but the reality of the world economy and the financial health of many corporations is not helped by overlooking the underlying causes.
Clyde

One of them. I'm assuming there are more. Unless the local union president had his facts messed up, he made a comment something to the effect of "our trucks are moving to Mexico" ...

... obviously there are still going to be truck plants running in the US and, I'm assuming, Mexico? :shrug:
looks like just one:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/about/global_operations/north_america/mexi.jsp

You try to make GM the "villan", perhaps you need to point the finger instead at the tree hugging environmentalists that have persuaded our Congress to pass laws prohibiting drilling in large known oil reserves and also passing environmental restrictions that have prevented the building of any new refineries in over 30 years. ..... That's why gas prices have gone out of site, in turn strangling the US truck market, which in turn has caused layoffs and plant closings (yes, in Canada, the US, and other countries). ..... the reality of the world economy and the financial health of many corporations is not helped by overlooking the underlying causes.
Clyde
You make some very good points, for sure ;).

I don't mean to "villainize" GM, but I realize it pretty much comes off that way. It's hard to feel all warm and fuzzy about their decision though, when just ~2 - 3 weeks ago, they made a contract deal with the union, and then BAM, within a matter of days (a couple weeks) tell the union that they're cutting ~2600+ jobs!! :rolleyes:

However, I realize that their cut-backs are due to greater issues, and I don't think they're all related to the unions' gross "over-inflated" wages/benefits, etc.

I agree with you that one of the areas is the artificial "fuel crisis" we're going into (again). What, is this the 1970's all over again?? Have we not learned from our mistakes before, and learned NOT to believe everything we're told about a "fuel crisis", and the fact that we're going to run out over night?! :irk:

The other big issue I think, is the un-fair trading policies we have in place with over-seas countries. We (North America) have allowed foreign automakers to come into our countries and setup shop, given them tax breaks, etc., etc., meanwhile, are we bombarding their countries with our products, our factories, and flooding their markets with our North American vehicles?? :shrug: I don't think so :no:. It's not a level playing field, and that's a big part of the problem. And regardless of what goes on out of country, what happens right here on our own soil should at least be fair, but it's not. We can't even compete in our own market, because of the tax breaks on one hand (to the imports), and huge taxes levied on the other (domestic). Make them play by our rules, and see how competitive imports are in the domestic market.

Sorry, I'll end my common sense (domestic) thinking ;). I think my brain is starting to hurt! :lol:

Back to the topic on hand though, at least we're still getting a nice, new CAMARO in a few months, and at least there will still be a lucky few people in Oshawa who are going to get the opportunity to build one of the finest cars GM has ever designed :thumb: :yes:.

:)

looks like just one:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/about/global_operations/north_america/mexi.jsp
O.M.G.!!! Under "GM Mexico Imports", they list the Camero Z28!!!! :shock: :irk: :mad: :no: :death: :dead:

Wow, no wonder people can't spell the name right. Even GM can't always get it right! :rolleyes:

You make some very good points, for sure ;).

I don't mean to "villainize" GM, but I realize it pretty much comes off that way. It's hard to feel all warm and fuzzy about their decision though, when just ~2 - 3 weeks ago, they made a contract deal with the union, and then BAM, within a matter of days (a couple weeks) tell the union that they're cutting ~2600+ jobs!!

However, I realize that their cut-backs are due to greater issues, and I don't think they're all related to the unions' gross "over-inflated" wages/benefits, etc.

I agree with you that one of the areas is the artificial "fuel crisis" we're going into (again). What, is this the 1970's all over again?? Have we not learned from our mistakes before, and learned NOT to believe everything we're told about a "fuel crisis", and the fact that we're going to run out over night?! :irk:

The other big issue I think, is the un-fair trading policies we have in place with over-seas countries. We (North America) have allowed foreign automakers to come into our countries and setup shop, given them tax breaks, etc., etc., meanwhile, are we bombarding their countries with our products, our factories, and flooding their markets with our North American vehicles?? :shrug: I don't think so :no:. It's not a level playing field, and that's a big part of the problem. And regardless of what goes on out of country, what happens right here on our own soil should at least be fair, but it's not. We can't even compete in our own market, because of the tax breaks on one hand (to the imports), and huge taxes levied on the other (domestic). Make them play by our rules, and see how competitive imports are in the domestic market.

Sorry, I'll end my common sense (domestic) thinking ;). I think my brain is starting to hurt! :lol:

Back to the topic on hand though, at least we're still getting a nice, new CAMARO in a few months, and at least there will still be a lucky few people in Oshawa who are going to get the opportunity to build one of the finest cars GM has ever designed :thumb: :yes:.

:)

:) I agree with you, there are any number of issues that are causing these closings and yes, government decisions (particularly the US government) and commodities futures traders have created yet another fuel crisis. I hope in the long run these closings and layoffs will pave the way for GM to continue putting out great new cars like the 2010 Camaro, pushing up their sales and perhaps allowing for laid off employees to be recalled, maybe even tooling up some of the closed truck plants for auto production. I do believe that Oshawa will build some quality Camaros for us, that is the upside to all of this nonsense.
Clyde

GM sales are down to 20% of the US market and they need to downsize. The unions should not be able to dictate to GM which factories stay open or it will all be gone. The first thing GM will do in bankruptcy is make the employee contracts null and void and it wont be hard for the bankruptcy judge to see that is what is making the company uncompetitive.

It actually can happen that way. A number of things could potentially happen. 1st it could get resolved later today at the meeting in Detroit. 2nd it doesn't get resolved and the current protest escalates into a wildcat. 3rd and what is a very likely senario is that there is a strike in September. The current collective agreement is in effect until Sept. at which time the newly signed agreement takes over. However, with the Unions positition that the contract was negotiated in bad faith, they may take the position that it is null and void and be in a strike position. Also, there is plenty of time for this to go to an arbitrator for a decision on whether GM's actions constitute bad faith bargaining. In the end, any strike would shut down all of GM Oshawa, truck plant, car plant 2, and the flexplant. Any prolonged shutdown would almost guarantee a delay in the SOP of the Camaro as well as delivery dates.

Correct. Since I wrote that, I discovered the details about the agreement. GM seemed to spring the plant closing suddenly. They HAD to have an idea that they were going to close the plant and seemed like they waited until they had an agreement before they broke the new.

If this in fact what happened, then yes, you are 100% correct. If all else fails, they could call a strike, and they would likely have the courts on their side on this.

The Union employees in almost any US company need to wake up and smell the coffee in this day and age, the "gravy train" has left the station and is not likely to return anytime soon. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but all the years of bloated salary increases, health care, etc. have taken their toll on many companies, quite frankly they cannot afford to keep on paying those salaries and benefits. Yes, there have been concessions made, just like there have been concessions and job losses in almost every major industry.

OK, here we go with another person who has more canned opinion on "The Unions than he has facts. Let's start.

You try to make GM the "villan", perhaps you need to point the finger instead at the tree hugging environmentalists that have persuaded our Congress to pass laws prohibiting drilling in large known oil reserves and also passing environmental restrictions that have prevented the building of any new refineries in over 30 years. If we drilled 10,000 new wells tomorrow, we couldn't do much with it as our refineries are already operating at 100% plus capacity. That's why gas prices have gone out of site, in turn strangling the US truck market, which in turn has caused layoffs and plant closings (yes, in Canada, the US, and other countries).

1. GM is in fact the villian here. GM (like Ford and Chrysler) piled all their development cash in large trucks and SUVs and foolhardely forfeited the car market to import brands. They did this because the profit margins on trucks and SUvs are far superior to the profit margins on automobiles. Where they were shortsighted is that despite past evidence that fuel prices can suddenly change and change the market immediately, they continued to put all their eggs in one basket. Now they're in serious trouble.

2. Blaming so-called "Tree Hugging Enviromentalists" is THE most dumbest thing I think anyone who actually takes time to watch the news, read the papers, or has a grade school understanding of what's going on in the world has heard.

Here's the breakdown for you:

a) Oil is paid for in US dollars. Running horrendous deficits (like has been done since 2001 and severely aggravated by this Iraq taxpayer money incenerator George the 2nd has gotten us into) means that we have to borrow money from China as well as other nations via Bonds and securities because we don't raise taxes to pay our way. So instead, you (as in us taxpayers) are going to be paying what we should pay in taxes anyway plus intrest on what China and other countries are loaning us. The more we borrow, the less valuable our money is on the world market. Since oil is bought with US dollars as currency, our prices skyrocket far faster than any other country (whose cuirrence is more stable).

b) There's 2 very huge reasons why no new refineries have been built in 30 years. One, because 30 years ago, it was expected that oil usage would grossly decrease as all vehicles got better gas mileage due to CAFE and the expected decrease in avalability of oil. The second reason is because companies didn't want to develop more. If you owned one of a few stores that sold a product people needed, would you want other stores to open up to ease demand (and profits) or would you be perfectly comfortable being one of those few stores knowing that if demand increased beyond your capacity you'd stand to make a killing?

.....For what it's worth, oil refineries are actually running at 85-90% capacity, not the 100 plus (is there such a thing as over 100%?) capacity you posted.

Sure, in the past, the autoworker's union did themselves no favors let alone US automakers. Many of the ridiculous work rules that were created in the 90s are only now being scaled back or eliminated. However, the UAW did a commendable job the last couple of rounds in seeing the writing on the wall, and agreed to some concessions that allowed US automakers to close down plants, buy out workers, unload health care coverage costs, reduce their workforce (meaning their membership and their funding via dues), create a multi tiered pay scale where newer employees get paid far less at comparable points in their career as has been done in the past, allowed outside contractors to do some union jobs, shutting down the nortorious "Job Banks", and many more items that I can easily take up a page to write about.

While the CAW is more militant and it's leader Buzz Hargrove is IMHO off the deep end, I have nothing but praise for the UAW at the moment. It's not just me either. GM and Ford seem to be moving a bit more production back to the US from Canada.


I sympathize with the people you know that are losing their jobs, but the reality of the world economy and the financial health of many corporations is not helped by overlooking the underlying causes.
Clyde

Underlying causes that they themselves had more to do with than anything else.

OK, here we go with another person who has more canned opinion on "The Unions than he has facts. Let's start.



1. GM is in fact the villian here. GM (like Ford and Chrysler) piled all their development cash in large trucks and SUVs and foolhardely forfeited the car market to import brands. They did this because the profit margins on trucks and SUvs are far superior to the profit margins on automobiles. Where they were shortsighted is that despite past evidence that fuel prices can suddenly change and change the market immediately, they continued to put all their eggs in one basket. Now they're in serious trouble.

2. Blaming so-called "Tree Hugging Enviromentalists" is THE most dumbest thing I think anyone who actually takes time to watch the news, read the papers, or has a grade school understanding of what's going on in the world has heard.

Here's the breakdown for you:

a) Oil is paid for in US dollars. Running horrendous deficits (like has been done since 2001 and severely aggravated by this Iraq taxpayer money incenerator George the 2nd has gotten us into) means that we have to borrow money from China as well as other nations via Bonds and securities because we don't raise taxes to pay our way. So instead, you (as in us taxpayers) are going to be paying what we should pay in taxes anyway plus intrest on what China and other countries are loaning us. The more we borrow, the less valuable our money is on the world market. Since oil is bought with US dollars as currency, our prices skyrocket far faster than any other country (whose cuirrence is more stable).

b) There's 2 very huge reasons why no new refineries have been built in 30 years. One, because 30 years ago, it was expected that oil usage would grossly decrease as all vehicles got better gas mileage due to CAFE and the expected decrease in avalability of oil. The second reason is because companies didn't want to develop more. If you owned one of a few stores that sold a product people needed, would you want other stores to open up to ease demand (and profits) or would you be perfectly comfortable being one of those few stores knowing that if demand increased beyond your capacity you'd stand to make a killing?

.....For what it's worth, oil refineries are actually running at 85-90% capacity, not the 100 plus (is there such a thing as over 100%?) capacity you posted.

Sure, in the past, the autoworker's union did themselves no favors let alone US automakers. Many of the ridiculous work rules that were created in the 90s are only now being scaled back or eliminated. However, the UAW did a commendable job the last couple of rounds in seeing the writing on the wall, and agreed to some concessions that allowed US automakers to close down plants, buy out workers, unload health care coverage costs, reduce their workforce (meaning their membership and their funding via dues), create a multi tiered pay scale where newer employees get paid far less at comparable points in their career as has been done in the past, allowed outside contractors to do some union jobs, shutting down the nortorious "Job Banks", and many more items that I can easily take up a page to write about.

While the CAW is more militant and it's leader Buzz Hargrove is IMHO off the deep end, I have nothing but praise for the UAW at the moment. It's not just me either. GM and Ford seem to be moving a bit more production back to the US from Canada.




Underlying causes that they themselves had more to do with than anything else.

To address some of your answers:
More canned opinions than fact?? Well considering that I have belonged to unions and worked union jobs, I think I know a little bit more than you give me credit for.

1. Foolhardiness yes, shortsightedness yes, the villian.....no.

2. Perhaps you think it's the "most dumbest thing", I think the facts would disagree with your statements. Why have there been no new nuclear plants built in so many years in the US when it is the cleanest, most effecient method to produce the electricity we need? Care to explain it? ENVIRONMENTALISTS is the simple answer.
a) Again you overlook the underlying causes, why do we have to borrow money? Because the idiots in DC can't learn to live within a budget like most normal people have to. Have you actually looked at the budget and seen the ludicrous waste in everyday bills? I doubt it, much easier to simply blame it on the Iraq war rather than the everyday "pork" inserted into almost every bill by almost every one of our legislators. And I suppose the commodities futures traders are only raising the oil prices at the same rate as ordinary inflation..... I don't think so.

b) Get a grip, if more refineries are built, more product is sold which means more profit for the oil companies. They want to drill and produce more revenue, it is due to the environmentalists that they cannot drill in many areas. What about our coal reserves? We sit on something like 30% of the world's coal and it is being used less and less, technology for it is pushed aside, again the environmentalists have played a huge role.

Any "good intentions" based on what the Unions have done in the last few years is a positive, albeit a small one, it will take many years to overcome the liabilities left behind from years of obscene wage increases and health care increases, a very difficult legacy to overcome.

All of the things above are contributing to plant closings, people need to also look at all of the factors that are contributing rather than focus solely on "the evil corporations".

Clyde