NEWS: Electrician at GM plant fired over Camaro photo leak

An electrician working at General Motors' Oshawa Assembly Plant lost his job this past week after company officials linked him to the leak of several photos showing a prototype Camaro body shell. The photos found their way onto the internet May 22nd and were published by multiple major automotive websites, including Leftlane. [...]

More... (http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-electrician-at-gm-plant-loses-job-over-camaro-leak.html)

:eek: holy crap. wonder how they tracked him to the pictures...well, they probably have cameras around there I guess :shrug:

Ah well, sounds like his kid's friends got ahold of the phone and put them on the net...Bummer for him. I guess the temptation was too much. I can understand that! :D

I hope this didn't ruin the worker's family. The leaked photos brought us all much joy. After 28 years on the job, he gets fired for trying to be cool with his kids. Bummer for him. Hope he gets another job quickly.

I hope this didn't ruin the worker's family. The leaked photos brought us all much joy. After 28 years on the job, he gets fired for trying to be cool with his kids. Bummer for him. Hope he gets another job quickly.
I say, about time. I'm glad GM is going after such folks. This yahoo knew he was doing wrong. He deserves everything coming his way for it.

I don't see how those pictures were a big deal. They were nice for the Camaro public to see.

I can't find the exact quote, but when Lutz said to remove the camo wasn't it said that they look forward to enthusiasts to getting "spy shots" and sharing them?

B

I can't find the exact quote, but when Lutz said to remove the camo wasn't it said that they look forward to enthusiasts to getting "spy shots" and sharing them?

B

It's one thing to capture a picture of a prototype on a public street or out in the open.

It's a 180 degree opposite when you take a picture on company property and publish or sell those pictures.

Imagine it this way. If someone catches you doing something embarrasing in public and photographs and publishes it, you have less legal rights than if someone goes into your house and does the same thing.

It's one thing to capture a picture of a prototype on a public street or out in the open.

It's a 180 degree opposite when you take a picture on company property and publish or sell those pictures.

Imagine it this way. If someone catches you doing something embarrasing in public and photographs and publishes it, you have less legal rights than if someone goes into your house and does the same thing.

I know the difference. I deal with it where I work. I just wanted to see if someone would agree with something so rediculous.

I know the article says his kid's friend got his phone, but if he did sell them, I hope he got enough to replace his lost pension.

B

It's one thing to capture a picture of a prototype on a public street or out in the open.

It's a 180 degree opposite when you take a picture on company property and publish or sell those pictures.

Imagine it this way. If someone catches you doing something embarrasing in public and photographs and publishes it, you have less legal rights than if someone goes into your house and does the same thing.

Shouldn't the link on this website be deleted then?! Aren't we then just spreading the damage caused by this leak? I agree that he shouldn't have taken the pictures, but to have fired him after 28 years of service to GM seems over the top. I think the leak did more benefit than harm to the car.

Each GM employee has to sign non-disclousre agreements as terms of employment. Big corporatoins have certain absolutes. GM has zero tolerance when that line is crossed.

Simply put, the guy had noting to gain and everything to lose when he took those pics. Under no uncertian terms did he know that. Sadly, he's paying the ultimate price because the pics got out.

not only that but it shows the inside of the plant which could possibly help the competition.

About 10 years ago I toured the Shreveport, LA assembly plant where they were building the S10. I pulled out a camera and the tour guide freaked out.

not only that but it shows the inside of the plant which could possibly help the competition.

About 10 years ago I toured the Shreveport, LA assembly plant where they were building the S10. I pulled out a camera and the tour guide freaked out.

I want it(Camaro) to be a success...but from everything I've been reading on here, its already lost.

3-5k+ over the GT, which is due for a big power boost in 3 years....and the gas prices, which who know's, but it doesn't look good all around for us( the enthusiasts).
:(

I've showed this article to a few non-car enthusiasts and all of their reaction were:
"What's the big f-ing deal? It's just a car. Who cares? It's not like it's a national security issue."

I kinda agree. The guy should be punished, but not that severly. Give him his full pension and send him home. Kind of like a forced early retirement.
Remember, he didn't try to sell or publish these photos for his own gain. And it's not like Camaro is a secret anymore anyways.
I know, he signed a form, blah, blah, blah.
I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime and there's nothing anyone can say to change my mind.

I want it(Camaro) to be a success...but from everything I've been reading on here, its already lost.

3-5k+ over the GT, which is due for a big power boost in 3 years....and the gas prices, which who know's, but it doesn't look good all around for us( the enthusiasts).
:(

No one has spoken about price. Where did you pull theses numbers from? a ouiji board?

I want it(Camaro) to be a success...but from everything I've been reading on here, its already lost.

3-5k+ over the GT, which is due for a big power boost in 3 years....and the gas prices, which who know's, but it doesn't look good all around for us( the enthusiasts).
:(

Jeeeez, some people are just so pessimistic...the Camaro has already failed???:confused:

The Mustang...yeah...it's going to FINALLY get a power boost...maybe in 3 years (still just rumors I'm sure because Ford can't figure out how to make an engine fast without a SC). Even if they can boost up the stang's power, they have a large gap to fill between the stang and the Camaro...and don't you think at that point the stang MSRP will go up too? Even if the 2010 Camaro is 3-5K over the 2010 stang (which I doubt it will be that much), it's still A LOT more car for the $$.

And gas prices effect everyone...not just Camaro's...and it's not like the Camaro will get 10mpg, it looks like the Camaro will get better MPG than the competitors.

The sky is falling.:(


Fixed that for you :cool:.



P.S. I doubt you'll have much to worry about.

Even if the 2010 Camaro is 3-5K over the 2010 stang (which I doubt it will be that much), it's still A LOT more car for the $$.
.

So we already know what's going into the competitions 2010 iteration do we?

I bet it is quiet at their dinner table.

I kinda agree. The guy should be punished, but not that severly. Give him his full pension and send him home. Kind of like a forced early retirement.
Remember, he didn't try to sell or publish these photos for his own gain. And it's not like Camaro is a secret anymore anyways.
I know, he signed a form, blah, blah, blah.
I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime and there's nothing anyone can say to change my mind.
Agree 100% :thumb:.

Was he wrong? Yes. Did he know better? Yes. Is it worthy of being FIRED over? No :no:.

At this point, what's to be learned about the car, seeing some bare shell shots, that we don't already know?! :shrug: Other than confirmation that the gas filler is on the WRONG SIDE OF THE CAR!!!!! :irk: :p

Times are getting tough enough around the Oshawa plants ... too bad this guy had to put a nail in his own coffin :(.

I agree that he shouldn't have taken the pictures, but to have fired him after 28 years of service to GM seems over the top. I think the leak did more benefit than harm to the car.

Image capture devices are NOT ALLOWED in GM facilities accept under strict circumstance.

Losing one's job is no small matter. If the person had 28 years with GM he should have been aware of what folks learn in their first 28 minutes on the job.

Sometimes you pay for your arrogance. Every company has their share of idiots. In a desperately competitive business this stuff can't be tolerated.

I know most folks online see zero harm in these sorts of situations. Whether they get it or not is irrevalent. Apparently this person didn't get it either... bet they get it now...;)

So we already know what's going into the competitions 2010 iteration do we?

Well, ford can't just all of a sudden come out with a new car in a year. The mustang is getting a slight face lift and maybe some more power...it's not getting a total redesign. We already know what the Challenger is and YES, I would say your getting a lot more for your $$ with the Camaro.

now, so this thread hasn't been completely hi-jacked...too bad the electrician lost his job...but if he in fact did sign a confidentiality agreement, then it's his fault for being stupid. GM has to have zero tolerance on this to keep everyone from doing it. I'm sure he's union...he'll find work else ware.

I've showed this article to a few non-car enthusiasts and all of their reaction were:
"What's the big f-ing deal? It's just a car. Who cares? It's not like it's a national security issue."

I kinda agree. The guy should be punished, but not that severly. Give him his full pension and send him home. Kind of like a forced early retirement.
Remember, he didn't try to sell or publish these photos for his own gain. And it's not like Camaro is a secret anymore anyways.
I know, he signed a form, blah, blah, blah.
I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime and there's nothing anyone can say to change my mind.

I agree in this specific case. Nothing new was learned about the car due to these photos. So in this instance although rules were broken, no information was lost (which is the idea behind the rules).

Should be be punished? Yes. Should he be punished the same as someone who gave away vital super duper secret information? No. Two different violations of the same rule should not come with the same punishment.

Whether or not anything was revealed about the car isn't the issue. It's the fact that he took the pictures at all. There are stringent rules about doing that. Rules he knew full-well. Now what if they just slap him on the wrist, and somebody in the future does the same thing thinking he'll get the same wrist-slap and reveals something critical about a future product.

No. Two different violations of the same rule should not come with the same punishment.
Why not? The rule has one punishment; termination. Otherwise there should be two separate rules...


I don't like that he was fired...but he knew the rules. It wasn't like there was some confusion in the matter. And if there was, he shouldn't have taken them if he didn't understand. Love the pictures ;) But it was s stupid move on his part. He flushed 28 years down the toilet with his Camera.

I don’t know how his past employee evaluations are, but if he has been a good employee throughout his employment he should get a second chance. I think many of people has did something on a job that they has no business doing.

I don’t know how his past employee evaluations are, but if he has been a good employee throughout his employment he should get a second chance. I think many of people has did something on a job that they has no business doing.

I disagree and here's why:

You don't shoot pictures where they are prohibited and this person did so. Was it a situation where one pic was shot and the son was showed picture, and the picture deleted? Apparently not.

Shooting pix where it's prohibited alone could be cause for termination, and it's a very easy rule to follow.

Shooting pix in a plant in progress of tooling, and the images FIND THEIR WAY INTO OTHER HANDS, in this case THE INTERNET. IOW, everyone. This is somehow very minor and no big deal?

This doesn't have the earmarks, IMO, of a mere single lapse in judgement situation. There are a number of screw-ups being carried out on this one. It's not one image, it's several images, it's several angles. The pix get into unauthorized hands...:confused: All of a restricted area.


I have no idea if this person was very arrogant, very stupid, or downright dishonest... perhaps none or all these possibilities.

I personally believe that if good, loyal, smart employees can lose their jobs as a result of the business climate? Then employees that can't hold up their end of the deal while being paid to do so need to explore their opportunities elsewhere. Maybe it's good that a job will remain for someone who deserves it a little bit more, on their ability to exhibit good judgement regarding the fundamentals.

This isn't even a close decision folks.

it is known that cameras are not allowed there...we even knew that after that pic of the white camaro first showed up without camo taken with a cell phone. I think he should have been fired for it. He knew the rules, and what the consequences would be. He probably signed a contract saying that he would not take pictures/release information, and if so then he broke that contract.
Just like the last focus group meeting. They could not have cameras, and signed a contract stating that they would not release information, and if they did there could be large consequences.

I don’t know how his past employee evaluations are, but if he has been a good employee throughout his employment he should get a second chance. I think many of people has did something on a job that they has no business doing.

Cant disagree with you more. They should have fired him. Hes lucky they didnt take him to court for violating his non disclosure contract. Honestly, It was nice to know that the C pillar to A pillar was one stamping but not necessary at this point. From a Ford view on the other hand, they now have a heads up. It may even give them clues as to how they themselves can do the same thing, as well as several other tricks of the trade recently developed by GM. Theyve seen what the shell of their most direct competition will be and have an 8 month head start because of one picture. GMs already in enough trouble. This guy either had little regaurd or was totally ignorant about hurting GM. Either way I have no sympothy for him.

Set the precidence now. If an employee wont protect the company advantages especially when GM needs to make an economic come back, get rid of them.

Agree 100% :thumb:.

Was he wrong? Yes. Did he know better? Yes. Is it worthy of being FIRED over? No :no:.

At this point, what's to be learned about the car, seeing some bare shell shots, that we don't already know?! :shrug: Other than confirmation that the gas filler is on the WRONG SIDE OF THE CAR!!!!! :irk: :p

Times are getting tough enough around the Oshawa plants ... too bad this guy had to put a nail in his own coffin :(.

I was thinking the exact same thing lol.

Trust is something that is earned, not given. If I entrust you with something (information say), and you betray that trust by telling others then the LEAST I'm going to do is fire you.

Where I work, if you violate the "trust" given to you, you will end up in federal prison. No, this isn't even close to the same types of things as pics of a car (it IS only a car after all people -- pics got out of it being built -- big whoopty doo), but it IS about trust. And no matter what he does, he can't be trusted again.

He got off light IMHO.

And he needs to beat the crap out of his kids.

A couple of things to note. The article only says the guy was an electrician working at the plant. Not that he's a GM employee. I'd suspect he's a contractor. Secondly is said he has been woking for 28 years. That doesn't imply a pension just a long work history.

So yes it sucks for him that he got fired but it may not be as severe as loosing a 28 yr GM job with a pension. As a contractor he can go work at another place being an electricion but probably won't ever be allowed on GM property again.

I'm also totally for what GM did. Just because this car has been to most over spy-pic'd car I've ever seen doesn't mean you can come into a GM facility and snap pics. They must hold the line somplace. EVERYONE at GM knows that pictures are a prohibited no questions asked. I've heard of people being fired at GM Design just for lifting a tarp on a covered vehicle/mockup. Non-disclosure agreements are signed and a quick lecture on it's rules and implications are spoken of your first morning on the job.

Geez you guys are ruthless..lol The way you all are talking like he should get the electric chair.

Non disclosure agreement this, non disclosure agreement that. Of course he broke the non disclosure agreement, but who cares. If anything, he helped appease the masses who were wondering whether this car was ever going to make it down the production line on time. I've got a wad of cash just itching to be spent on that car. Seeing those pics calmed my jitters about whether I should wait or just buy another car now. Cheers to the brave few who listen to reason rather than protocol.

Why not? The rule has one punishment; termination. Otherwise there should be two separate rules...

Why? That's like treating someone the same if they steal a million dollars or a 50 cent candy bar. :wtf:

I want it(Camaro) to be a success...but from everything I've been reading on here, its already lost.

3-5k+ over the GT, which is due for a big power boost in 3 years....and the gas prices, which who know's, but it doesn't look good all around for us( the enthusiasts).
:(

Show me PROOF of what you say. I didn't think so. Goodbye now. :rolleyes:

Non disclosure agreement this, non disclosure agreement that. Of course he broke the non disclosure agreement, but who cares.

Yeah, I mean what the hell, we don't need any rules or laws to live by. :confused:

Yeah, I mean what the hell, we don't need any rules or laws to live by. :confused:

That's exactly what I was advocating, doing away with all laws, rules, and the instituting of marshall law :rolleyes: Some of you take it to the absolute extreme. He took a picture. BFD. I don't think it's such a big deal to warrant losing your job over. Think about your laws, rules, and regulations next time you go one mile over the speed limit, or leave the license plate off the front bumper. Those are laws too right?:think:

That's exactly what I was advocating, doing away with all laws, rules, and the instituting of marshall law :rolleyes: Some of you take it to the absolute extreme. He took a picture. BFD. I don't think it's such a big deal to warrant losing your job over. Think about your laws, rules, and regulations next time you go one mile over the speed limit, or leave the license plate off the front bumper. Those are laws too right?:think:

but we also do them knowing the consequences when we are caught...pay the ticket(punishment) and move on. He took the pictures knowing the consequences and was caught. The punishment was in writing, and he signed it accepting that he understood the rules and regulations. If he couldn't handle the repercussions of braking the rules, he shouldn't have accepted the job. He just needs to take his punishment and move on.

Non disclosure agreement this, non disclosure agreement that. Of course he broke the non disclosure agreement, but who cares.

er....the non-disclosure agreement does.:rolleyes:

That IS why GM has its employees sign it, so it discourages them to do fool-hardy things like this. You say "he took a picture, BFD."....yeah - if he took a picture of his foot. You and I may not know what details may have been released to the competition, but it could be extremely sensitive stuff: The assembly-plant set-up (it IS state-of-the-art), the car's structure...anything.

Of course, maybe it doesn't show anything valuable.(which is a very real possibility) But then what, GM just turns a blind-eye? "Oh, you broke the contract you signed: you know, the one that says you should be fired...but since it was nothing -- it's okay."

This reaction tells the next guy that the penalties aren't as severe as that silly sheet of paper tells him. So he snaps a shot of something, posts it up; and BAM...HE gives away vital info to prying eyes. HE gets canned. How is that fair when they both broke the same agreement, with the same outlined punishment? I don't think it is in the least!

Some may not like it, but he signed an agreement. He broke the agreement. He got fired.....as per the agreement. End of story. It sucks, especially after 28 years -- but so it goes.

It's not so much the pictures of the Camaro itself that's the problem. It's pictures of the car in "processing", possibly revealing a process that gave GM some advantage in some area.
We were told about this on our first day at orientation at our UAW plant.
They can actually sue for damages if a trade secret was revealed...
Very dangerous stuff!..:eek:

I feel it would've been different if he'd photo'd one setting on some skids, maybe?..

God, you guys act like this guy's a class A felon that deserves to be executed.
Do we know for sure that he signed a non-disclosure/no photo agreement? Do we know the exact wording of the agreement? We don't. He may not even be a GM employee.

You guys are looking at this as if it's black or white. We all know that this world is not black and white. It's just many shades of gray.
To those that brought up the law; why do you think there are varying degrees of punishment, even for the same crimes? Because nothing is black and white and there's reasons and circumstances behind everything.

Here's a question for you. Who here has ever downloaded music illegally, stolen something small, kept change when the cashier gave you too much back, etc. etc? I bet many of you have. Boy, I wish the law came down on you full force. All of you should be in jail right now.

And whatever happened to forgiveness in this world?

Three phrases come to mind when I read how harsh some of you people are. They are:

"Let he without sin cast the first stone"
"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
"To err is human, to forgive is divine"

I hope GM or whoever this guy's employer is reads this because I would say to them that their punishment is too harsh and that they should reconsider. Everybody deserves a second chance.

.....I hope GM or whoever this guy's employer is reads this because I would say to them that their punishment is too harsh and that they should reconsider. Everybody deserves a second chance.

Absolutely Agree

That's exactly what I was advocating, doing away with all laws, rules, and the instituting of marshall law :rolleyes: Some of you take it to the absolute extreme. He took a picture. BFD. I don't think it's such a big deal to warrant losing your job over. Think about your laws, rules, and regulations next time you go one mile over the speed limit, or leave the license plate off the front bumper. Those are laws too right?:think:

Therein lies the attitude as to why Im glad GM delt with it quickly. "Its really no big deal to leak company secrets to the competition. You dont even get fired for it" Reducing pictures of newly developed design and build techniques of future product to merely pictures of a car and not even expect to loose your job because you feel the damage YOU caused shouldnt affect you? Are you kidding me? The idea that someone feels theyre entitled to their pay even though their wreckless actions could directly affect the bottom line for the company.

It almost seems as if some people feel entitled to their pay even if they ruin a company, project, or let exclusive trade secrets escape the company or dont do their best to build a product/service on par with what they would want to pay for themselves. Those same people seem to feel the customer will or should do their part and keep comming back because the client owes their business and loyalty to the company just because the entitled narcisistic "I" work there. I dont owe you a damn thing. Either the company does what it can to keep its edge or not. But know this, if you take a pic that leaks something to the competition and they get the upper hand. Especially if I find out both you and the company feel I owe you yet you both squandered company assets? Youve actually taken steps to offer me a lesser product also. Youve probably just lost me as a customer.

If you truely feel its just a picture because the impact doesnt affect you. If you feel that way but you claim if you were the company youd be more lienient. Take a picutre of one of your active credit cards with the numbers and expiration clearly readable and put it online. Its only a picture...

Wow I guess it's true for every extreme there must be an equal and opposite.

It's just a job. People loose their jobs all the time for stupid reasons or just being stupid. This guy seems to fall closer to the latter. It's not like his life is over or he's going to jail. There are many jobs that can be lost for not following the directions. People need to pay attention to the rules and when they say this breaching of certain rules can result in termination then those are some that should be followed.
All GM employees and contractors live under these rules and it’s not that hard not to break. It's also in GM’s best interest to set a strict example here because it will keep the rest in check.

Besides he's an electrician so he can go out and get another job. Life goes on. This lesson will be learned by many more than just him.

Non disclosure agreement this, non disclosure agreement that. Of course he broke the non disclosure agreement, but who cares. If anything, he helped appease the masses who were wondering whether this car was ever going to make it down the production line on time. I've got a wad of cash just itching to be spent on that car. Seeing those pics calmed my jitters about whether I should wait or just buy another car now. Cheers to the brave few who listen to reason rather than protocol.

Well, then you and the masses can send him money to make up what he's lost.

You seem to view a nondisclosure agreement as something frivilous and non binding. The issue is not appeasing you or the so-called masses. He did no service whatsoever in getting new customers for the Camaro. If someone is moronic enough to not believe the Camaro is getting made after all of GM's press releases, all the car mag references, references in Newsweek & Time as well as national news organizations, not to mention enthusiast websites from not just GM & Camaro, but even over at import websites, and all the prototype and mule pictures that's been posted over the months, then a few pics posted on the internet isn't going to convince them either.

There is no one who wasn't going to get a Camaro that's going to see a picture of a structure being made on a robotic machine that's going to say "Holy s*it! That's a great looking car! I'm going to rush down to the dealer and make a deposit!" that didn't say it when they 1st saw spy shots.

There's no cameras allowed in there, period. The casual poster here even knows how serious GM is about ensuring security. All you need to do is look at their reaction to breeches in recent years.

Chrysler even launched a full scale investigation when similar pictures appeared of the Chalenger.

This is no light affair, and eveyone who works in the industry and most long time followers of the car world know this.

God, you guys act like this guy's a class A felon that deserves to be executed.
Do we know for sure that he signed a non-disclosure/no photo agreement? Do we know the exact wording of the agreement? We don't. He may not even be a GM employee.

You guys are looking at this as if it's black or white. We all know that this world is not black and white. It's just many shades of gray.
To those that brought up the law; why do you think there are varying degrees of punishment, even for the same crimes? Because nothing is black and white and there's reasons and circumstances behind everything.

Here's a question for you. Who here has ever downloaded music illegally, stolen something small, kept change when the cashier gave you too much back, etc. etc? I bet many of you have. Boy, I wish the law came down on you full force. All of you should be in jail right now.

And whatever happened to forgiveness in this world?

Three phrases come to mind when I read how harsh some of you people are. They are:

"Let he without sin cast the first stone"
"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
"To err is human, to forgive is divine"

I hope GM or whoever this guy's employer is reads this because I would say to them that their punishment is too harsh and that they should reconsider. Everybody deserves a second chance.

This isn't a shade of grey, IMO. This person was very likely an employee if the link is accurate when they describe "28 year seniority". An electrician in a plant would probably be described as "skilled trades". IOW, likely a UAW plant employee that doesn't actually assemble cars directly but keeps the plant and assembly machines functioning.

Regardless, if this was a contract employee, a confidentiality agreement would have been signed.

If you are just a visitor to a plant you are advised and agree to not shoot pictures or capture images.

I'm not an attorney but I believe that confidentiality agreements perform several functions. First and most obviously, they protect sensitive technical or commercial information from disclosure to others. One or more participants in the agreement may promise to not disclose technical or other competitive information received from the other party. If the information is revealed to another individual or company, the injured party has cause to claim a breach of contract and can seek injunctive and monetary damages.

Second, and very important, the use of confidentiality agreements can prevent the forfeiture of valuable patent rights. Under U.S. law and in other countries as well, the public disclosure of an invention can be deemed as a forfeiture of patent rights in that invention.

I won't belabor the point but I will share some advice, even though it is not solicited.

Even if you did not sign a confidentiality agreement as part of your employment, laws and legal doctrines exist that require you to keep confidential the employer’s bona fide trade secrets and confidential business information. Even without a written trade secret or confidentiality agreement, you will likely be sued if you reveal trade secrets or confidential information. At the least you can expect to be terminated.

Violating confidentiality can result in monetary judgements against you, and even jail. So yes, there are different levels of punishment in these sorts of situations.

A good definition of character is how a person acts when they don't think anyone is looking.

He's an electician, and likely unioned. The union will appeal to get him hired back. I wouldn't argue against them in this case.

He's an electician, and likely unioned. The union will appeal to get him hired back. I wouldn't argue against them in this case.

In a situation like this, I don't think there's anything the union can do for him. Unions are there to protect the workers from being exploited (in theory) - they're not there to save your ass when you seriously f*ck up, like this guy did.

I am not going to read all of these replies, but I do want to add my humble opinion.

I have a few parts to that opinion.

1. Some will say it was no real harm and the punishment was too severe. I say, how would you know that. Any leak like that could cost GM millions. How would we know what GM is trying to do and when. They spend a lot of money on preparation and on the production line. A leak cold be very costly.

2. The man has paid a high price. I feel bad for him, but he put himself in this position now he has to live with it. He signed a non disclosure. I even know how bad it is to take pictures and I don't work there so he was very aware of what he was doing. This means he lost his integrity. What he did was wrong, he knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. It is a moral question and he was wrong. Whether it caused GM harm or not, is irrelevant. If we put mroe stock in each others moral convictions and doing the right thing and NOT doing the wrong thing, it would be a better world.

Losing one's integrity is a very serious issue to me. I know that is not the way people think these days, but my father taught me that being honest, hardworking, etc were very important morals that one should protect.

This broke those values and if I were hie employer, I woudl fire him too as much as it would hurt that I had to.

Well, then you and the masses can send him money to make up what he's lost.

You seem to view a nondisclosure agreement as something frivilous and non binding. The issue is not appeasing you or the so-called masses. He did no service whatsoever in getting new customers for the Camaro. If someone is moronic enough to not believe the Camaro is getting made after all of GM's press releases, all the car mag references, references in Newsweek & Time as well as national news organizations, not to mention enthusiast websites from not just GM & Camaro, but even over at import websites, and all the prototype and mule pictures that's been posted over the months, then a few pics posted on the internet isn't going to convince them either.

There is no one who wasn't going to get a Camaro that's going to see a picture of a structure being made on a robotic machine that's going to say "Holy s*it! That's a great looking car! I'm going to rush down to the dealer and make a deposit!" that didn't say it when they 1st saw spy shots.

There's no cameras allowed in there, period. The casual poster here even knows how serious GM is about ensuring security. All you need to do is look at their reaction to breeches in recent years.

Chrysler even launched a full scale investigation when similar pictures appeared of the Chalenger.

This is no light affair, and eveyone who works in the industry and most long time followers of the car world know this.

I'm back on the same page with guionM. :cool:

It sucks this guy lost his job. Even if he didn't sign anything (and most likely he did) he was certainly made aware that the penalty for taking photos was termination. He probably thought: 1. I'm not going to take a picture of anything too revealing; 2. I'm only going to show it to my kid to show him I'm working with the new Camaro; 3. I probably won't get caught.
He weighed his options and decided to take the picture and it cost him. If GM let him off easy because he didn't intend to do harm, they would effectively be reducing the penalty for taking pictures in the plant. More people would be willing to take the risk if they knew there was a good chance they wouldn't lose their jobs over it.

He's an electician, and likely unioned. The union will appeal to get him hired back. I wouldn't argue against them in this case.

Wrong. The union would leave him on his own on this one if he belongs to one. This isn't a labor issue where he is facing a work-related problem. This is breaking company policy and a contract. Union would likely take as dim a view as the company does. Keep in mind, it's also their jobs and integrity on the line.

It's fine that the guy simply wanted his kids (who were probally in to cars at the very least) to see the new Camaro coming down the line. It's terrible that his kids shared those photos with thier friends who in turn posted them on the internet, which in turn came back on him.

I agree that it's sad and even depressing that this electrican lost his position due to kids posting on the internet something he likely never expected and definately never intended to wind up on the internet. But in an instance like this after the damage is done, you have to go after the source. If he signed the paper, he's responsible, even if he didn't actually post the pictures himself.

Some people can say that he doesn't deserve what happened. I have also been the recipient of some pictures over the years that were taken inside company grounds without company knowledge that I looked at, then deleted shortly afterwards without sending to anyone. I did that because I didn't want the persons to get in trouble and they trusted me. I'm not the only person on this site that has recieved pics over the years that make the Camaro assembly pictures seem almost trivial.

But the idea of leaving pictures with your enthusiastic kids that could get you in gross trouble if it got out, knowing that young people virturally live on the internet, is a bit beyond bad judgement.

Why does this turn into a big deal to defend this guy? If you steal fries at McD's, a camera at BestBuy, or a watch from the jewerly store you work at...you get fired. A trade secret is no different, so this guy is not an asset to the company who deserves his job back. That's not company loyalty and it sure isn't going to help GM. If this gives Ford/Toyota/etc. some leg up on Camaro he may be risking thousands of jobs long-term. Now, is it better to fire one guy now or lay off the whole plant because your competitive edge is literally walking out the door with no consequences?

Why does this turn into a big deal to defend this guy? If you steal fries at McD's, a camera at BestBuy, or a watch from the jewerly store you work at...you get fired. A trade secret is no different, so this guy is not an asset to the company who deserves his job back. That's not company loyalty and it sure isn't going to help GM. If this gives Ford/Toyota/etc. some leg up on Camaro he may be risking thousands of jobs long-term. Now, is it better to fire one guy now or lay off the whole plant because your competitive edge is literally walking out the door with no consequences?

:yes: Well said...

As Baretta used to say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time". When you make stupid decisions you sometimes have to pay the consequence, sorry, I have no sympathy for him.
Clyde

I'd like to know who ratted him out...

Probably his IP address and his ISP. Not that hard to put an address to an IP in a matter of minutes.

Why does this turn into a big deal to defend this guy? If you steal fries at McD's, a camera at BestBuy, or a watch from the jewerly store you work at...you get fired. A trade secret is no different, so this guy is not an asset to the company who deserves his job back. That's not company loyalty and it sure isn't going to help GM. If this gives Ford/Toyota/etc. some leg up on Camaro he may be risking thousands of jobs long-term. Now, is it better to fire one guy now or lay off the whole plant because your competitive edge is literally walking out the door with no consequences?

I don't think no trade secrets was involed in those photos if there are let me in on the secret;)

Me personally I come on this board to find out inside information about the Camaro, that includes spy pics, intel, etc. It wouldn't be a spy pic if it wasn't for spies relatively speaking. So if any information is useful to me and the informant gets caught I am not going to throw him/her under the bus, and say he was a dummy for doing that. I would just say to myself it is unfortunate that person got caught. I will never wish upon someone to lose their job unless I felt they did was very unethical. Some people say it’s just a job he can find another one. In these days and ages you just drop one job and pick up another.

Show me PROOF of what you say. I didn't think so. Goodbye now. :rolleyes:


Despite the added cost of the independent rear, Chevy is looking to keep base prices in the $20,000–$30,000 bracket, while the SS model could be in the mid- to upper- $30,000 range.


And some guy, in another thread, quoted some nobody named Bob Lutz I think it is, talking about the Camaro going to be a premium car. That it would be priced as such, and more than the mustang.

Just saying, if this thing launches with the same ole quality GM has been known for, with higher prices, even if the Mustang doesn't get a power upgrade, history might just repeat itself again if you know what I mean.

I didn't buy a LS1 because they were anywhere from 5k to 10k more than my current GT. It's looking like its going to be that way again.

Despite the added cost of the independent rear, Chevy is looking to keep base prices in the $20,000–$30,000 bracket, while the SS model could be in the mid- to upper- $30,000 range.

....

I didn't buy a LS1 because they were anywhere from 5k to 10k more than my current GT. It's looking like its going to be that way again.

Would you be able to provide some proof to back these claims up? The only reason that I ask is because it is contrary to just about everything that has been said.

Despite the added cost of the independent rear, Chevy is looking to keep base prices in the $20,000–$30,000 bracket, while the SS model could be in the mid- to upper- $30,000 range.


And some guy, in another thread, quoted some nobody named Bob Lutz I think it is, talking about the Camaro going to be a premium car. That it would be priced as such, and more than the mustang.

Just saying, if this thing launches with the same ole quality GM has been known for, with higher prices, even if the Mustang doesn't get a power upgrade, history might just repeat itself again if you know what I mean.

I didn't buy a LS1 because they were anywhere from 5k to 10k more than my current GT. It's looking like its going to be that way again.




An ls1 car will also happily hand 98% of GT's their ass on a silver platter.





As far as the guy at the plant it comes down to one thing. It doesnt matter if he took pictures of the new camaro or the new aveo. He signed a confidentiality agreement when he applied for his job, that means certain materials, ideas, and photographs do not leave the property. He violated that agreement, termination is a very suitable punishment for violating that contract. Its kind of like the dealership i work at made me sign an alcohol policy saying that i dont even have to be in consumption of alcohol at work, if im in posession (yes that includes inside my truck) and someone finds out, termination is a likely consequence.

I don't think no trade secrets was involed in those photos if there are let me in on the secret;)

Me personally I come on this board to find out inside information about the Camaro, that includes spy pics, intel, etc. It wouldn't be a spy pic if it wasn't for spies relatively speaking. So if any information is useful to me and the informant gets caught I am not going to throw him/her under the bus, and say he was a dummy for doing that. I would just say to myself it is unfortunate that person got caught. I will never wish upon someone to lose their job unless I felt they did was very unethical. Some people say it’s just a job he can find another one. In these days and ages you just drop one job and pick up another.

Believe it or not, professional spy photographers.... and I mean, ALL professional spy photographers, all car magazines, and every media that buys automotive spy photography take more than just a dim view towards "spy" pictures taken while on company property.

Mr Doane if he's around can add to this.

I don't think no trade secrets was involed in those photos if there are let me in on the secret;)

I think they were. In addition to the ones were were told about, Im sure there are others that can be picked out from someone studying the pictures who are in the industry and can recognize something that may have been done with a new process or done differently.

To me it would seem this would be worse than if that employee stole a production Camaro Top car from the factory. You can recover or even write off a stolen car. You can even procecute them later. Once your competition learns your intelectual property you cant have them unlearn it. Even if the competition cant find a way to incorporate what was a trade secret, they at least know what theyre up against.

I don't think no trade secrets was involed in those photos if there are let me in on the secret;)

Me personally I come on this board to find out inside information about the Camaro, that includes spy pics, intel, etc. It wouldn't be a spy pic if it wasn't for spies relatively speaking. So if any information is useful to me and the informant gets caught I am not going to throw him/her under the bus, and say he was a dummy for doing that. I would just say to myself it is unfortunate that person got caught. I will never wish upon someone to lose their job unless I felt they did was very unethical. Some people say it’s just a job he can find another one. In these days and ages you just drop one job and pick up another.

Spy photos are out in the open and this is inside a production facility, so this is illegal, and while I am not a lawyer this may be industrial espionage. By your reasoning any crime is no crime as long as you don't get caught. What a farce. Now you support illegal behavior by unethical thought. Just because we all have interest in the car doesn't mean someone should do whatever it takes to get us a photo a couple months ahead of actual production cars. I certainly would rather have waited than have this person lose their job and GM lose some advantages. By the way, with dropping and picking up jobs...ask the workers of the 4 closing plants GM announced today how they feel about that statement.