The new Camaro V6 might be the best model of the entire lineup!

....and here's why:

The LY7 3.6 V6 version of the Pontiac G8 weighs 3885 pounds, has a 256 horsepower, and 252 lbs/ft of torque. It runs 7 seconds to 60 and the quarter in the low 15s at just over 90 mph, and gets 17/25 mpg according to the EPA.

The LLT 3.6 direct injection V6 produces just over 300 hp, 272 ft/lbs of torque. In the Cadillac CTS, the vehicle weight is 3874. It does 0-60 in about 6.3 seconds and the quarter in just under 15 seconds at 95 mph. It gets 17/26 mpg.


The new Camaro will likely be roughly a similar weight as the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO.

While the V8 versions weighed in around 3700 pounds, the Monaro CV6 had a supercharged 3.8 V6 engine, and had a curb weight of just over 3500 pounds. It had just 229 hp and 277 ft/lbs of torque. It ran 0-100K (0-62 mph) in the mid 6 second range. It came only with an automatic.

It's not a far jump to see why the V6 5 speed Camaro apparently stole the show with the focus group currently checking out preproduction 5th gens.

With nothing more than the regular V6, with 3500 pounds and the right gearing, a V6 Camaro would be a blast to drive. With over 300 pounds under the G8, it's not unreasonable for a manual Camaro to reach 60 in 6 seconds flat and possibly less with the quarter in the upper 90s.

But that's not even the top V6.

The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.

It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.

In short, if Camaro ends up with the DI V6 (not even considering a possible increase in horsepower between now and next year), a 6 speed manual with good gearing, an agressive rear axle ratio, and comes in at the CV6's 3500 pounds, we should have a V6 Camaro that will roughly split the difference between the LT1 and LS1 Camaro in performance!


To top it off, the 17/26 mpg fuel economy of a DI Camaro is idenical to the 4 liter base Mustang with nowhere near the same power (the GT is rated at 15/23).

Even more impressive, this performance is available at better fuel economy than the current Evo (16/22), Eclipse V6 (16/25), VW R32 (18/23), Nisan 350Z (18/25), and matches the G37 coupe (17/26).

Even the Accord coupe (17/25) comes up short next to a 300+ hp DI V6 Camaro.

Forget about someone's arbitrary weight number. Perish the though about the new Camaro being a gas guzzling pig.

The new Camaro is shaping up to be something potentially big as long as GM gets the word out and Chevy gets people to test drive them.

And, bless their hearts, you don't need to get a top level V8 to actually have a great car! If you get the V8, you'll probally add 200 pounds to the Camaro, heap another $4-5000 hit on the sticker (not to mention higher insurence) and take a 2 mpg hit on fuel economy (and certainly more on day-to-day driving), and might even give up something on the fun factor. A DI V6 would be the best of all worlds.


I'm convinced that GM DID learn their lesson from the 4th gen.



Latest drag time on a DI CTS:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Cadillac-CTS-Timeslip-14133.html

I always said I am going to get the V8 no matter what, but with gas prices soaring I was starting to have second thoughts, but now the news that I hear about the V6 is astounding and now I feel like have more choices to choose from when it comes to purchasing the Camaro.

The V6 options are sounding better and better.

Find a way to make the V6 sound like a V8, and the game may change completely for some individuals......

At least my poor old LT1 will sound good....:(

too bad it won't get a 6sd. it would have better performance and better mileage.

OK, my first post, I have been following you guys for over a year and checking this page many times a day and finally had to join, this week's posts from these lucky 15 guys was just too much. I too am exited about the the V6, cant wait for details on the podcast tomorrow! well, what are the chances the camaro V6 can get 300hp+ personally i would not consider a V6 if it does not go into the 300s. IF it does why not? better GAS milage (i just paid $4.17 a gallon today!) and with that power can definitely rape a mustang base/GT. at this point i really hope the camaro V6 goes over 300hp. What do you guys think, 300 likely or not, maybe GM does not want to give it a CTS DI V6.

not 15 guys

bash on the new guy lol...well the 12/15 (not sure if all 15 attended) but 15 "Disciples" both male/female.

Now why couldn't one of those base models splitting the difference between an LT1 and LS1 Camaro be a small, light V8 like EVERYONE wanted in the first place instead of a powerful V6 that will basically perform the same concerning performance and MPG??

No matter how good the V6 car is, people want the V8 for the sound and bragging rights. I still think not including that is a mistake. For example, people will always take a 300HP 17/26 MPG V8 over a 310HP 18/27 V6 in a car like this just because of the V8 factor. IMO, having an SS with two engine options, one being a small V8, would have been the biggest seller out of ALL of the models offered, more than any V6, a bigger V8 SS, and of course more than a Z06-like top model Z28.

bash on the new guy lol...well the 12/15 (not sure if all 15 attended) but 15 "Disciples" both male/female.

We were all there:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Hugger1LE/Summit%20Part%202/MilfordGroup-1.jpg

From left to right:

John (GM), Jason, Chris, Selena, Jeremy, Dan, Teri, Elie, Kevin, Tim, Scott (GM), Millie, Tom (GM), Art, Janet, Brett (GM down under), Cheryl (GM), Maggie, Cara & Sherrie.

thanks for posting the one where my hair is all jacked up, art LOL



here's the other one with just the disciples it:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee80/roninz28/M080849-002.jpg

I hope GM puts the same manual tranny behind both the V8 and the V6. The lack of a 6spd keeps me from picking up a V6 f-body right now...

thats cool hopefully the buying public understands this

I hope GM puts the same manual tranny behind both the V8 and the V6. The lack of a 6spd keeps me from picking up a V6 f-body right now...

Which of the Disciples actually said it was a 5-speed??? I missed that in the posts from this weekend's activities.

Either way, I think they would be hesitant to challenge the assumption in this thread because arguing OR confirming would be in violation of their non-disclosure agreement. I doubt Scott or other GM insiders will/should comment on this because, once again, we are dealing with competitive issues for the development of the Mustang, etc.

It's not a far jump to see why the V6 5 speed Camaro apparently stole the show with the focus group currently checking out preproduction 5th gens.



Which of the Disciples actually said it was a 5-speed??? I missed that in the posts from this weekend's activities.

Either way, I think they would be hesitant to challenge the assumption in this thread because arguing OR confirming would be in violation of their non-disclosure agreement. I doubt Scott or other GM insiders will/should comment on this because, once again, we are dealing with competitive issues for the development of the Mustang, etc.ummm....right in the main post.....

ummm....right in the main post.....

Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong...but I don't believe that Guy (guionM) is one of the 15...

For example, people will always take a 300HP 17/26 MPG V8 over a 310HP 18/27 V6 in a car like this just because of the V8 factor.

Not necessarily. You forget that vast numbers of people don't take the time to do much research on the topic when looking at a car. To them, sixes are always more fuel efficient than eights. Doesn't matter what the EPA numbers say.

Are we to be suprised by this?

I have said the V6 was going to be the most important car from the start. This was a lesson learn from Ford on the Mustang. The V6 Mustang is the largest seller and the most popular with the Females who buy a great number of Mustangs.

Now GM is going to do at least 300 HP with a V6 not only will appeal to the Female demo but also to many males exspecially in light of the present gas prices.

GM s also has backed this up with many statments for a good while now.

So anyone being suprised by the perfromance or the attention GM has put on the V6 making it into a great car vs just a standard entry level should not be suprised many here already knew what to expect.

This combo has been looking us square in the eyes for at least 2 + years and the concept was known even longer.

I gotta say even though I was looking to get a V8 5th gen, the V6 model is looking better and better. I can be happy with 300+hp 5spd or 6spd Camaro. Plus with the addtional weight savings, even better. The package certainly sounds like an extremely fun car to drive :cool:

if i can get a manual trans, it's got a nice "bark" to it, and the motor makes ~320 horse or so, and gets better mileage, and it weighs in less than the V-8 and is available with a sport-worthy suspension/brake package, I'd take the V-6 any day. You can always add more power.

If I could get a mustang-weight 300+ horsepower camaro, I'd snap that up so fast you wouldn't know what happened. I hope that kind of weight figure (35xx) is not out of the question for a hi-po V-6 version...

....and here's why:

The LY7 3.6 V6 version of the Pontiac G8 weighs 3885 pounds, has a 256 horsepower, and 252 lbs/ft of torque. It runs 7 seconds to 60 and the quarter in the low 15s at just over 90 mph, and gets 17/25 mpg according to the EPA.

The LLT 3.6 direct injection V6 produces just over 300 hp, 272 ft/lbs of torque. In the Cadillac CTS, the vehicle weight is 3874. It does 0-60 in about 6.3 seconds and the quarter in just under 15 seconds at 95 mph. It gets 17/26 mpg.


The new Camaro will likely be roughly a similar weight as the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO.

While the V8 versions weighed in around 3700 pounds, the Monaro CV6 had a supercharged 3.8 V6 engine, and had a curb weight of just over 3500 pounds. It had just 229 hp and 277 ft/lbs of torque. It ran 0-100K (0-62 mph) in the mid 6 second range. It came only with an automatic.

It's not a far jump to see why the V6 5 speed Camaro apparently stole the show with the focus group currently checking out preproduction 5th gens.

With nothing more than the regular V6, with 3500 pounds and the right gearing, a V6 Camaro would be a blast to drive. With over 300 pounds under the G8, it's not unreasonable for a manual Camaro to reach 60 in 6 seconds flat and possibly less with the quarter in the upper 90s.

But that's not even the top V6.

The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.

It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.

In short, if Camaro ends up with the DI V6 (not even considering a possible increase in horsepower between now and next year), a 6 speed manual with good gearing, an agressive rear axle ratio, and comes in at the CV6's 3500 pounds, we should have a V6 Camaro that will roughly split the difference between the LT1 and LS1 Camaro in performance!


To top it off, the 17/26 mpg fuel economy of a DI Camaro is idenical to the 4 liter base Mustang with nowhere near the same power (the GT is rated at 15/23).

Even more impressive, this performance is available at better fuel economy than the current Evo (16/22), Eclipse V6 (16/25), VW R32 (18/23), Nisan 350Z (18/25), and matches the G37 coupe (17/26).

Even the Accord coupe (17/25) comes up short next to a 300+ hp DI V6 Camaro.

Forget about someone's arbitrary weight number. Perish the though about the new Camaro being a gas guzzling pig.

The new Camaro is shaping up to be something potentially big as long as GM gets the word out and Chevy gets people to test drive them.

And, bless their hearts, you don't need to get a top level V8 to actually have a great car! If you get the V8, you'll probally add 200 pounds to the Camaro, heap another $4-5000 hit on the sticker (not to mention higher insurence) and take a 2 mpg hit on fuel economy (and certainly more on day-to-day driving), and might even give up something on the fun factor. A DI V6 would be the best of all worlds.


I'm convinced that GM DID learn their lesson from the 4th gen.



Latest drag time on a DI CTS:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Cadillac-CTS-Timeslip-14133.html


Ah -- you are a wise man, my friend!

too bad it won't get a 6sd. it would have better performance and better mileage.


who said it wouldn't??:D

Now why couldn't one of those base models splitting the difference between an LT1 and LS1 Camaro be a small, light V8 like EVERYONE wanted in the first place instead of a powerful V6 that will basically perform the same concerning performance and MPG??

No matter how good the V6 car is, people want the V8 for the sound and bragging rights. I still think not including that is a mistake. For example, people will always take a 300HP 17/26 MPG V8 over a 310HP 18/27 V6 in a car like this just because of the V8 factor. IMO, having an SS with two engine options, one being a small V8, would have been the biggest seller out of ALL of the models offered, more than any V6, a bigger V8 SS, and of course more than a Z06-like top model Z28.

EVERYONE? Everyone?

I think you're wrong about that one..........

If it weighs 3500 lbs or there abouts with 300hp, that'll be a pretty fast car for most people (300hp Mustangs are sub 14 second cars, dont see why a 300hp Camaro wouldn't be unless something is really soaking up the power), enough of that 1/4 mile stuff though, given a killer suspension and equally killer brakes and you got yourself a nice little road carver which should feel a bit lighter on its feet than the V8 car, a modern day interpetation of the orginal Z/28 if you will (provided people can look past the bent 6).

Now about that twin turbo V6 Evo-X destroyer you guys obviously have in the works...

Missing was Al Openheiser. He had to run his son to his hockey game.

We were all there:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Hugger1LE/Summit%20Part%202/MilfordGroup-1.jpg

From left to right:

John (GM), Jason, Chris, Selena, Jeremy, Dan, Teri, Elie, Kevin, Tim, Scott (GM), Millie, Tom (GM), Art, Janet, Brett (GM down under), Cheryl (GM), Maggie, Cara & Sherrie.

I'm having a really hard time not starting up a big bench racing session over a 6spd LT1 4thgen vs a manual tranny ~300 hp V6 5thgen... I'm sure it's been done here, but not today I don't think, lol.

EVERYONE? Everyone?

I think you're wrong about that one..........


Almost everyone. If both were similar (big V6/small V8) why would someone NOT take the V8 if given the option, especially in a car like this? It was discussed time and again and that was the basic feeling. I think you're wrong on this one. ;)

No thanks, I'll still take a V8.

Can't speak for the camaro not having driven either the V6 or V8 but my manager has a 2008 Mustang V6 and quite frankly, everytime I drive it just completely falls short of my GT, and not all of it has to do with the power difference.

As the man above me mentioned, no thanks, I'll take the V8. Especially seeing as how I've already got a muscle car doing 300hp, no real point in getting another one.

Can't speak for the camaro not having driven either the V6 or V8 but my manager has a 2008 Mustang V6 and quite frankly, everytime I drive it just completely falls short of my GT, and not all of it has to do with the power difference.

As the man above me mentioned, no thanks, I'll take the V8. Especially seeing as how I've already got a muscle car doing 300hp, no real point in getting another one.

That's exactly what he's trying to say with the original post though. The V6 Camaro isn't going to be a letdown bare bones model like the v6 mustang is. It is going to be a good performing car that will have plenty of luxury features. From what the "disciples" have said comparing it to the v6 mustang is a put down. I'm just saying if the V6 does everything that well imagine what the V8 will do. That is why I will opt for the V8!:bow:

Can't speak for the camaro not having driven either the V6 or V8 but my manager has a 2008 Mustang V6 and quite frankly, everytime I drive it just completely falls short of my GT, and not all of it has to do with the power difference.

As the man above me mentioned, no thanks, I'll take the V8. Especially seeing as how I've already got a muscle car doing 300hp, no real point in getting another one.

GM as been sending signals for a long time that the line between the V6 and te SS are going to be close than the 4th Gen.

ALso it was made clear in a few statments that this car was going to be a step above the Mustang. To quote Lutz the Camaro would be a preimum car. He was just telling us we will be goetting a car a step above the rest out there.

The V6 was going to be the volume car all along and now that the price of oil is up an not looking to come down it is looking like a wise move.

No, not all are going to buy a V6 or they would not be selling the V8 but the V6 is what is going to keep volume up and the price dow while still giving great performance to the majority. Not everyone wants 400 HP for everyday driving contrary to popular thinking. Sometimes you have to not think as a enthusiast.

Just think of this as a Buick GN with more power. Also if tuned right a V6 can have a great sound. THink back to a V6 Fiero. They has a very agressive sound like a Ferrari 308 out of the domestic 2.8 V6.

With nothing more than the regular V6, with 3500 pounds and the right gearing, a V6 Camaro would be a blast to drive. With over 300 pounds under the G8, it's not unreasonable for a manual Camaro to reach 60 in 6 seconds flat and possibly less with the quarter in the upper 90s.

But that's not even the top V6.

The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.



:p You forgot to mention it'll probably be the best handling of the group. 50/50 weight dist. AND you took the mileage numbers out of the CTS, but didn't account for that missing 300lbs. ;) Should it be a tad higher, then, like: 18/27?

I'm confused, though - I thought they decided to scrap the 'base' V6, and just go ahead and do the DI version as the V6 model.

That being said - I'm probably going to be getting the V6. The great part about that thought, is that it's not like I'm 'settling' for anything. It's bound to be a magnificent handler, with more than respectable power and full of great goodies. But, regardless - ;) If I can get my hands on a 400hp V8, well hell - I'm doin' it!!

Seems like a very thirsty and heavy car for a V6 powered car to me. I'd expect to see under 3500 lbs and over 30 mpg, and not a big variation for the V8 cars too. Sure going to be interesting to see how the car is received by the potential customers when it finally gets here.

Can't speak for the camaro not having driven either the V6 or V8 but my manager has a 2008 Mustang V6 and quite frankly, everytime I drive it just completely falls short of my GT, and not all of it has to do with the power difference.

Don't forget that there's a gigantic difference in refinement between the Mustang's current SOHC 4.0 V6 and the 3.6 liter HF. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Mustang is getting a better 6, too, but I wouldn't base any thoughts on the Camaro V6 on the current Mustang V6 driving experience.

Seems like a very thirsty and heavy car for a V6 powered car to me. I'd expect to see under 3500 lbs and over 30 mpg, and not a big variation for the V8 cars too. Sure going to be interesting to see how the car is received by the potential customers when it finally gets here.

If it's around 3500, it will be about the same weight as an Accord Coupe or an Eclipse. If it gets 17/26, it will get better mileage.

I'd love to see 30 mpg numbers, but if it ends up as the above, it's certainly class competitive.

What in this approximate class currently gets 30 hwy?

Don't forget that there's a gigantic difference in refinement between the Mustang's current SOHC 4.0 V6 and the 3.6 liter HF. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Mustang is getting a better 6, too, but I wouldn't base any thoughts on the Camaro V6 on the current Mustang V6 driving experience.

Indeed, Ford's mission with the V6 Mustang was to get it out there as affor... err cheaply as possible... ergo the ancient 4.0 V6 and ghastly base interior.

Lol, gotta give the F5 credit for being a game changer though, Mustang is supposed to be coming with a better interior and hopefully a 400hp V8 with M6 trans and then we will see with the GRWD Mustang how things really shake out.

Seems like a very thirsty and heavy car for a V6 powered car to me. I'd expect to see under 3500 lbs and over 30 mpg, and not a big variation for the V8 cars too. Sure going to be interesting to see how the car is received by the potential customers when it finally gets here.

I kind of thought that at first, but then I really looked at cars in the same "class" for fuel mileage numbers. I don't think it is out of line at all compaired to what is out there right now. I don't think there is a midsized V6 powered car getting over 30mpg. (If my numbers are incorrect please say so, all taken from KBB.com)

All '08 models….
Cadillac CTS 17/26mpg with 304hp V6
BMW 525xi 19/27 with 230hp V6
Subaru Impresa WRX 19/25 230hp. Plain Subaru Impresa 20/27 170hp.
Subaru Legacy 20/27 175hp, unless you get the V6 19/26 245hp.
The Volkswagon Passat V6 gets 17/26 280hp
Mercedes Benz C class V6 gets 18/25 228hp
Dodge Avenger V6 15/24 235hp
Ford Taurus V6 FWD 18/28 263hp (AWD 17/24)
Ford Fusion V6 18/26 221hp
09 Toyota Camry V6 19/28 268hp
Nissan Maxima V6 19/25 255hp
Pontiac G8 V8 15/24 361hp
Pontiac Grand Prix V6 18/28 200hp

2002 Camaro Z28 automatic….. 18/25 305hp (numbers were before revised EPA ratings)

who said it wouldn't??:D

Thanks for clearing that up! That definitely puts it on par or better than its competitors.

Find a way to make the V6 sound like a V8, and the game may change completely for some individuals......

That would probably push me over the edge. Well maybe... ;)

What would be the Model name for the V6? RS??

The V6 Camaro needs to be the home run car. Not just for sales but to help GM in it's CAFE crunch. It's always been said that a better base model will make a better premium model. I'm glad GM has realized this as it's been a lost art in almost all of the previous pony cars then say the first gen Mustang.

What we don't know about the V6 is the curb weight and gearing and that will have a huge effect on performance and fuel economy. If the weight can be kept down and the DI 3.6L makes all the poines promised a 6-speed geared right would make the car fly and past the gas pump too.

who said it wouldn't??:D
I think now is a good time for us to demand for the 7-speed manual...;)

Are we to be suprised by this?

I have said the V6 was going to be the most important car from the start. This was a lesson learn from Ford on the Mustang. The V6 Mustang is the largest seller and the most popular with the Females who buy a great number of Mustangs.

Now GM is going to do at least 300 HP with a V6 not only will appeal to the Female demo but also to many males exspecially in light of the present gas prices.

GM s also has backed this up with many statments for a good while now.

So anyone being suprised by the perfromance or the attention GM has put on the V6 making it into a great car vs just a standard entry level should not be suprised many here already knew what to expect.

This combo has been looking us square in the eyes for at least 2 + years and the concept was known even longer.

Yeah... but it sure is a great feeling, after having driven the car, that what you're saying is finally confirmed!:D

Best regardSS,

Elie

who said it wouldn't??:D

:bow: 6spd manual & a 6spd auto? ;)

It seems logical after all that economy of scale can be better used if you can get the same transmission no matter the engine. :D

Yeah... but it sure is a great feeling, after having driven the car, that what you're saying is finally confirmed!:D

Best regardSS,

Elie


Ditto that. The V6 opened my eyes that satisfying performance doesn't have to come in 8 cylinders. My thoughts on which Camaro I'm considering buying were drastically altered after driving the V6.

A potential daily driver?
With things going the way they are now I need 30+ mpg on cheap gas.

:fingerscrossed:

The V6 opened my eyes that satisfying performance doesn't have to come in 8 cylinders.

My thoughts exactly.

My thoughts on which Camaro I'm considering buying were drastically altered after driving the V6.

I will still lean to the V8 (just what I like) but the V6 won't have that "just a V6" connotation any longer.

A strong running v6 would make a great starting point for someone looking for a forced induction 5th gen.

im guessing the weight of the v6 model will be closer to 3600 lbs and the mid level z28 at 3800 lbs and the top of the line SS at 3900 lbs or so.

The 300hp V6 will definitley have its place, but being a little more hard core, 300hp would need to be just a starting point.;)
Especially after hearing that chromed out, 454ci rat I just finished stuffing into a '72 Nova SS-clone, fire up, through those headers and 2 1/2" Flowmasters!:eek::bow:
(Wish it was mine, but it's for a friend..)
I want to feel the exhaust note...:cool:
(Plus, I don't want my buddy's to come up and hit their palm into my forehead and say, "oops, you coulda had a V8!"..:lol:)

Almost everyone. If both were similar (big V6/small V8) why would someone NOT take the V8 if given the option, especially in a car like this? It was discussed time and again and that was the basic feeling. I think you're wrong on this one. ;)


Show me the data that supports your point.

You can't -- (a post on this site does not count -- it isn't scientific...)

You seem to forget the insurance issue -- and if you price a V6 versus a V8 -- the V8 gets a penalty everytime. (sometimes enough to make your teeth hurt!)

Here's something to think about:

If we market this car as a Muscle car -- we will sell 40-50K a year over its lifecycle.

We can't afford to do that.

Suffice to say that we must appeal to a wider audience while still blowing away the competition in many areas -- performance being one -- ride and handling being another -- high tech features being another.......and we MUST do this while never alienating our Enthusiast base. (thus, the reason for our disciples -- )

(by the way -- how many other car companies do what we just did with a group of enthusiasts???)

How 'bout sitting back and understanding that there JUST MAY be some people on the team (including the Disciples) that know more about this car than you do?

(sorry -- that may sound harsh -- but you've been posting some barbs lately....)

This is a silly thread. There's no replacement for displacement, and I wouldn't buy a car just because it looks nice. :death:

I'm not saying there's not a place for a V6. And I'm not saying people won't buy a ton of them. I'm just keeping it real.

My LT1 didn't come with that much power(compared with what you guys are speculating) when I bought it, but it sure got my rocks off everytime I got into it.

All this talk of a nice V6 has caused me to think for a minute or two that owning a V6 5th Gen wouldn't be the end of the world by ANY means. That is not something I am used to thinking.

This is a silly thread. There's no replacement for displacement, and I wouldn't buy a car just because it looks nice. :death:

I'm not saying there's not a place for a V6. And I'm not saying people won't buy a ton of them. I'm just keeping it real.

oh, and I'll take a new good looking V6 that runs sub 15's over some 1975 150hp smog restricted 350ci engine that would be lucky to crack into the 19's in the 1/4 mile.

You my friend can keep your ugly slow cars and leave the cool new camaro's that look nice AND scoot very well with their "displacement challenged powerplants"

Thats just my take on "keeping it real" :eek:

You know FBodFather is right. I'm like one of those people he's talking about. V8 maybe very expensive to maintain as well as the insurance rate. I'm so aiming for the V6 and if it has 300HP, I will be the happiest person in the WORLD. BTW, ill be paying for the car and i go to school, so gas cost has to be considered. Hopefully in the future, V8's are around for me to purchase and REALLY ENJOY. From what i am hearing from the focus group, i am very excited about the V6. I hope it has a RS model with the cool decal :D

oh, and I'll take a new good looking V6 that runs sub 15's over some 1975 150hp smog restricted 350ci engine that would be lucky to crack into the 19's in the 1/4 mile.

You my friend can keep your ugly slow cars and leave the cool new camaro's that look nice AND scoot very well with their "displacement challenged powerplants"

Thats just my take on "keeping it real" :eek:

And I'll take a new good looking V8 over both of them. 1975 has nothing to do with the discussion. THAT'S keeping it real.

Show me the data that supports your point.

You can't -- (a post on this site does not count -- it isn't scientific...)

You seem to forget the insurance issue -- and if you price a V6 versus a V8 -- the V8 gets a penalty everytime. (sometimes enough to make your teeth hurt!)

Here's something to think about:

If we market this car as a Muscle car -- we will sell 40-50K a year over its lifecycle.

We can't afford to do that.

Suffice to say that we must appeal to a wider audience while still blowing away the competition in many areas -- performance being one -- ride and handling being another -- high tech features being another.......and we MUST do this while never alienating our Enthusiast base. (thus, the reason for our disciples -- )

(by the way -- how many other car companies do what we just did with a group of enthusiasts???)

How 'bout sitting back and understanding that there JUST MAY be some people on the team (including the Disciples) that know more about this car than you do?

(sorry -- that may sound harsh -- but you've been posting some barbs lately....)

Sure you guys know more about the 5th Gen than me and I understand the insurance stuff, but my position remains the same on the low-powered V8 vs. high powered V6 issue. (providing they had a similar price and MPG) Have u seen the data that shows 50% or more M*stang buyers are choosing the base V8 GT over the V6?! Or the ones where people are lining up in droves for HEMI Challengers with the worst gas prices in history and one of its's lousiest economies ever overall?

My concern is, no matter how much power you guys give that V6, it's still gonna be looked at as "only" a V6. Maybe you never owned V6 Camaro. I did, it was my first car (still have it, woah!) and I can tell you from experience that the V6's in cars like this are just not looked at the same as a V8 car, by default, and it can be aggravating. The thing is though, today you guys (GM in particular) can get similar performance out of a small V8 MPG-wise. I'm not saying you guys won't have a winner with the top V6, I'm just saying I feel you could have a bigger winner with an economic "base V8 RS" style of car as other Gens had, except the 4th, which suffered from not having a car like that in the lineup. There will be many entry level buyers that still want a V8 of some kind and won't have that option, once again.

I think what our Fbodfather is trying to say is that GM has focused it's efforts on the V6 Camaro as it did in the past generations with the V8 models. So to broaden the appeal of the Camaro as more than just a V8 sport coupe with an afterthough V6 option. The plan is to make the base model V6 Camaro just as appealing to the enthusiast it is to an casual consumer. This is by no means a replacement to the V8 SS or Z28. But as a way to give the customer a great car worthy of the Camaro name and heritage but also gives the option to better on gas mileage and is cheaper to insure.
For those of us who want the V8 we'll still get that but now our car will be a more profitable platform and a true asset to GM in the CAFE world ahead.

Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong...but I don't believe that Guy (guionM) is one of the 15...

No I wasn't.

I meant to say 6 speed.


Almost everyone. If both were similar (big V6/small V8) why would someone NOT take the V8 if given the option, especially in a car like this? It was discussed time and again and that was the basic feeling. I think you're wrong on this one. ;)

Because it's hard to even give V8s away nowadays. Say the "V8" to the public today, and their likely to turn their backs.

The only V8 takers today are ONLY enthusiasts. V6 engines are even taking up a larger portion of Mustang sales.


im guessing the weight of the v6 model will be closer to 3600 lbs and the mid level z28 at 3800 lbs and the top of the line SS at 3900 lbs or so.

1. You're easily 100 pounds too heavy.
2. SS is likely to be the V8 model.
3. I suspect your guess on the "Super Camaro" is probally pretty close, though.



This is a silly thread. There's no replacement for displacement, and I wouldn't buy a car just because it looks nice. :death:

I'm not saying there's not a place for a V6. And I'm not saying people won't buy a ton of them. I'm just keeping it real.

Not saying there's not a place for a V6?
Not saying people won't buy a ton of them?
No replacement for displacement?
Silly thread?

Silly post you made there.
I have no idea what your point is.

Just keeping it real.

And I'll take a new good looking V8 over both of them. 1975 has nothing to do with the discussion. THAT'S keeping it real.

Again, I'm not sure you are even tuned into the same conversation we're having here.

We're talking about a V6 Camaro that probally outperforms an LT1, and comes pretty close to acceleration of an LS1, and might actually beat it over a challenging road course.

We're also talikng about a V6 Camaro that's going to be cheaper to insure than a V8, will get better gas mileage than most of the high performance four cylinder imports, let alone most import V6s.





Sure you guys know more about the 5th Gen than me and I understand the insurance stuff, but my position remains the same on the low-powered V8 vs. high powered V6 issue. (providing they had a similar price and MPG) Have u seen the data that shows 50% or more M*stang buyers are choosing the base V8 GT over the V6?! Or the ones where people are lining up in droves for HEMI Challengers with the worst gas prices in history and one of its's lousiest economies ever overall?

You haven't seen Hemi sales figures from the last 6 months, have you?

My concern is, no matter how much power you guys give that V6, it's still gonna be looked at as "only" a V6. Maybe you never owned V6 Camaro. I did, it was my first car (still have it, woah!) and I can tell you from experience that the V6's in cars like this are just not looked at the same as a V8 car, by default, and it can be aggravating.

Not sure what planet you're from, but V6 cars aren't looked at as "only" a V6 today outside of the shrinking circle of V8 enthusiasts.

You need to take less time shooting the messenger, take a look at real sales (instead of personal opinion) and realize that not only are V6s are the top power in virturally everything, but that as of recently, more new cars have 4 cylinder engines than any other powerplant, even V6s.

The thing is though, today you guys (GM in particular) can get similar performance out of a small V8 MPG-wise. I'm not saying you guys won't have a winner with the top V6, I'm just saying I feel you could have a bigger winner with an economic "base V8 RS" style of car as other Gens had, except the 4th, which suffered from not having a car like that in the lineup. There will be many entry level buyers that still want a V8 of some kind and won't have that option, once again.

Again, there seems to be a total disconnect with your view here and what is actually going on in real life on the real market. V8 engines simply aren't wanted by anyone but traditional American muscle car fans. Better sit down for this, but: You simply aren't going to sell a small V8 to a regular customer, no matter how good the mileage is in today's market.

You don't need the 5th gen's team's access to data and surveys. You just need to pull up monthly vehicle sales figures and take a look.

Show me the data that supports your point.

You can't -- (a post on this site does not count -- it isn't scientific...)

You seem to forget the insurance issue -- and if you price a V6 versus a V8 -- the V8 gets a penalty everytime. (sometimes enough to make your teeth hurt!)

Here's something to think about:

If we market this car as a Muscle car -- we will sell 40-50K a year over its lifecycle.

We can't afford to do that.

Suffice to say that we must appeal to a wider audience while still blowing away the competition in many areas -- performance being one -- ride and handling being another -- high tech features being another.......and we MUST do this while never alienating our Enthusiast base. (thus, the reason for our disciples -- )

(by the way -- how many other car companies do what we just did with a group of enthusiasts???)

How 'bout sitting back and understanding that there JUST MAY be some people on the team (including the Disciples) that know more about this car than you do?

(sorry -- that may sound harsh -- but you've been posting some barbs lately....)

I guess he forgets the many years back to 1964 yje V6 Mustang has sold very well if not better than the V8 many years.

My question is will you promote in advertising that disciples were consulted to built the car for the people and not just a buch of old guys in Detroit telling us what we want. Mr Lutz excepted.

I could see a American car built for the people and by the people who love this car. Yourself and the other 5th gen crew included.

Also is the tuning byJohn Heinrency going to be promoted in print and TV? THe GM Performance Group is really starting to mean something now with all the qulity tuned suspensions they have now turned out. John is a hands on Sheby to GM and not just a name on the fender.

I know you many not be able to answer if you are doing these things but it would be points that would be good to consider. Even on the V6.

John H's lap time at the Green Hell is what got me to take a drive in the HHR SS. They have turned it into one hell of a ride.

Ypu guys have done what has been needed and this care would not have turned ou this way 10-15 years ago under the old GM. Now it is up to the market and public to show their feelings with their wallet.

Not sure what planet you're from, but V6 cars aren't looked at as "only" a V6 today outside of the shrinking circle of V8 enthusiasts.

You need to take less time shooting the messenger, take a look at real sales (instead of personal opinion) and realize that not only are V6s are the top power in virturally everything, but that as of recently, more new cars have 4 cylinder engines than any other powerplant, even V6s.

Again, there seems to be a total disconnect with your view here and what is actually going on in real life on the real market. V8 engines simply aren't wanted by anyone but traditional American muscle car fans. Better sit down for this, but: You simply aren't going to sell a small V8 to a regular customer, no matter how good the mileage is in today's market.

You don't need the 5th gen's team's access to data and surveys. You just need to pull up monthly vehicle sales figures and take a look.

There was just a post with a link a few weeks ago showing that more than 50% of M*stang sales were V8 and I cannot find it for anything. Nothing posted yet has really convinced me that a good base V8 with similar power and MPG wouldn't be a great seller, the V6's would probably still take up most of the sales. (it was always that way until the later 4th Gen anyway) You cannot compare the rest of the market to cars like Camaros and it's competitors. Of course they have great selling V6's, that's the top engine in most cars today and they don't get lost in the shadow of the V8 models as cars do in this segment.

The V6 5th Gen sounds like a promising car and the V6 car needs to be strong, unfortunately I still think theres a gap left for those that would like a small V8. Then again I guess we don't know exactly what the model lineup will look like yet powerwise and what the pricing will be of the lower V8 car, so maybe this is best left until then.

SilverSS,

I know what you're saying. I guess I'm simply not the target for that car though and a Camaro enthusiast is always gonna try to push the V8 agenda LOL. :D

An important thing i think, to get away from the "just a V6" thing which definetly still exists, is a good exhaust note. Theres nothing worse than a 3rd or 4th gen V6 with 'flows'! Won't say anything about the 2.8 3.1 3.4 motors ugh, the 3800 is a really nice sounding engine, but the minute you put aftermarket exhaust on it its ear wrenching!

In an effort to be positive here, and for whatever my opinion is worth, i think the people buying the V6 should have more to be proud of other than just owning a good looking, quick Camaro. Give them a sound even V8 guys like myself can appreciate, so they don't feel like they're being looked down upon. It happens, all the time...don't care what anyone says! Nissans 3.5 has a really nice sound to it for a six shooter, even with exhaust. So i hope this is one of the things special attention is being paid to, maybe even working with aftermarket companies to develop great alternatives to stock. So instead of that annoying mid range identity crisis sound, how bout a mean pissed off powerful inspiring sound?!?!

I know the above is basically 100% enthusiast based, even though its the base model, i'm sorry :) Nothing wrong with having even more people who look at their Camaro as more than just a car!

If anyone has heard a new CTS with either V6 take off from a start, you will hear the noise it makes and its very nice. They tuned the exhaust to give it a nice sporty tone. Its not as lound as it is on the G35, but it has a nice exhaust note.
BTW...Gen III and up motors arent exactly "sexy" sounding either. They sound nice, but nothing like a Gen I/II.

Here is all that I was able to find:

2005 Mustang GT 60,792, Mustang V6 99,620

There is an article from December that says this:

Ford scaling back production of V8 Mustang

Prior to the introduction of the new-for-2004 Mustang, Ford sold about 70-percent of its pony cars with V6s, while the remaining 30-percent came with V8s. That figure shifted when the retro coupe went on sale in late '03 and Ford was forced to bump up the output of its V8-equipped models to keep up with demand.

Over the last few years, 52-percent of 'Stangs came with the 4.6-liter V8, but rising fuel prices and the fact that enthusiasts bought early has brought that number back down to 45-percent, so Ford will be reducing the number of 2008 Mustangs it builds with a V8.

We're sure the excessive amount of special edition models helped fuel the initial fire for the V8, and we expect the eight cylinder engine to comprise over 50-percent of sales once again when a refreshened Mustang hits the market before the end of the decade. That said, we recall that Ford's newish 3.5L V6 is suited to rear-wheel-drive, and expect that engine or a version of it, coupled with a six-speed automatic, to land in the Mustang's engine bay eventually. After all, Ford promised that the 3.5L V6 would power 1 in 5 of its models by 2010.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/10/ford-scaling-back-v8-production-for-mustang/

I think in the first year of a new model or refresh the enthusiast population always bumps the take rate on V8 models and it then dies down a little (excluding the last few years of the 4th gen once "Hey, they ain't gonna make these anymore!" crept in and V8 sales went way up).

Sure, Dodge "sold out" of Challenger SRT8s - 6,400 cars, but that's hardly a mainstream success. I bet once the other models launch, the SE will outsell the R/T in the long run (though maybe not in the first year).

Enthusiasts tend to be early adopters for these cars, but once that market is satiated, you've still got to move a lot of metal to make it worthwhile.

I'm seeing a V6 car in my future and if it has 300 horses and a great suspension, I won't feel like I'm settling for it, either. After all, it will be 100 horses more than my 6.6 Liter 400!

My LT1 didn't come with that much power(compared with what you guys are speculating) when I bought it, but it sure got my rocks off everytime I got into it.

All this talk of a nice V6 has caused me to think for a minute or two that owning a V6 5th Gen wouldn't be the end of the world by ANY means. That is not something I am used to thinking.

Ditto that. My reaction to the V6 was surprising to me, and it has changed my perspective completely. In thinking about dealer allocation, maybe the V6 will not be as hard to get my hands on early on and I'll still have a really fun daily driver that won't be as expensive to keep.

SilverSS,

I know what you're saying. I guess I'm simply not the target for that car though and a Camaro enthusiast is always gonna try to push the V8 agenda LOL. :D

I agree and I'll probably go with the V8 and a manual trans too. But it seems like the bar will have been raised for the V6 group and at the end of the day it's a good thing for all of us Camaro fans.

Again, there seems to be a total disconnect with your view here and what is actually going on in real life on the real market. V8 engines simply aren't wanted by anyone but traditional American muscle car fans. Better sit down for this, but: You simply aren't going to sell a small V8 to a regular customer, no matter how good the mileage is in today's market.

You don't need the 5th gen's team's access to data and surveys. You just need to pull up monthly vehicle sales figures and take a look.
His disconnect is that he doesn't understand that GM doesn't need to sell him a Camaro.

He posts on camaross.com... he's probably already considering buying one.

If he realized that GM needs to sell this car to the people who currently buy Nissans, Hondas, and Toyotas he might understand that a great V6 makes more sense than a solid V8.

It would also help if he realized that GM needs to sell a great V6 sport coupe to young buyers who can't/won't afford a V8 in order to get them to consider buying a GM sedan when they start reproducing.

I doubt that argument will make sense to him though. Anybody that thinks this car is/should be designed strictly for GM loyalists is probably not interested in hearing about conquest sales and cross marketing.

The thing is though, today you guys (GM in particular) can get similar performance out of a small V8 MPG-wise.

Sure, they could get similar power and FE from something like the 5.3 LS4 that's in the Impala SS. But IMO there's almost no "sex appeal" there. The HFV6DI is a world class engine, by all reports. It beats most of the import V6s, and it would be great to have an an affordable car.

Also the competition isn't standing still. "My V6 beats your V8" is something they have to avoid at all costs.

Sure you guys know more about the 5th Gen than me and I understand the insurance stuff, but my position remains the same on the low-powered V8 vs. high powered V6 issue. (providing they had a similar price and MPG) Have u seen the data that shows 50% or more M*stang buyers are choosing the base V8 GT over the V6?! Or the ones where people are lining up in droves for HEMI Challengers with the worst gas prices in history and one of its's lousiest economies ever overall?

My concern is, no matter how much power you guys give that V6, it's still gonna be looked at as "only" a V6. Maybe you never owned V6 Camaro. I did, it was my first car (still have it, woah!) and I can tell you from experience that the V6's in cars like this are just not looked at the same as a V8 car, by default, and it can be aggravating. The thing is though, today you guys (GM in particular) can get similar performance out of a small V8 MPG-wise. I'm not saying you guys won't have a winner with the top V6, I'm just saying I feel you could have a bigger winner with an economic "base V8 RS" style of car as other Gens had, except the 4th, which suffered from not having a car like that in the lineup. There will be many entry level buyers that still want a V8 of some kind and won't have that option, once again.

This is just a different time though from an enthusist standpoint . There are boatloads of younger import minded enthusist who will buy a V6 over the V8 if the car itself is desireable . There are as many people nowadays that would say the VQ 3.5/3.7 in a G35/350/370z or something like the VR6 in a R32 VW sounds better than a LS engine . With some headers , a x-pipe and something like as pair of Corsa touring mufflers the 3.6 will sound amazing .

The GM 3.6 is a great engine with a bright aftermarket future , its a good sounding V6 in the cars Ive driven ( CTS , SRX and G6 ) the car will have a manual trans and apparently will handle to boot . For once the only fault your gonna beable to really give it , is it doent have a V8 .

Even though I would be more inclined to buy a base model with something like a L76 , I think GM did the right thing by going all out on a killer v6 .

Sure you guys know more about the 5th Gen than me and I understand the insurance stuff, but my position remains the same on the low-powered V8 vs. high powered V6 issue. (providing they had a similar price and MPG) Have u seen the data that shows 50% or more M*stang buyers are choosing the base V8 GT over the V6?! Or the ones where people are lining up in droves for HEMI Challengers with the worst gas prices in history and one of its's lousiest economies ever overall?

My concern is, no matter how much power you guys give that V6, it's still gonna be looked at as "only" a V6. Maybe you never owned V6 Camaro. I did, it was my first car (still have it, woah!) and I can tell you from experience that the V6's in cars like this are just not looked at the same as a V8 car, by default, and it can be aggravating. The thing is though, today you guys (GM in particular) can get similar performance out of a small V8 MPG-wise. I'm not saying you guys won't have a winner with the top V6, I'm just saying I feel you could have a bigger winner with an economic "base V8 RS" style of car as other Gens had, except the 4th, which suffered from not having a car like that in the lineup. There will be many entry level buyers that still want a V8 of some kind and won't have that option, once again.



Show

Me

The

Data.

I want to see it in Black and White -- not your opinion or what you think is true.

Show

Me

The

Data.

I know what is being said about the 4th gen V6's. Nothing but a dog, but all indications are
that this V6 is going to be far and away better than those. Yes, it will be looked at initially
as "Oh, only a V6?", but if what we here is true, and from those that have driven it I put
a lot of faith, this V6 is gonna change that stereotype about the engine. I say bring it on
and let's show all the beyotches what this thing can do.:bow::bow:

Just take a good look at this thread from start to finish.

CamaroZ28.com is probally stuffed full of the most rabid, pro-V8 crowd of any website on the internet. Yet.....

...look at how many people here will readily accept a great performing V6!

There are those who personally prefer a V8, and clearly state that it's their personal preference. I'm not talking about the people living in some alternate universe who still somehow believe that a mid-level V8 is going to outsell a great V6, or that today the public at large still has a facination with V8 engines.

I wrote a thread a long time ago on how I felt that enthusiasts ruined the 4th gen Camaro. How these people hijacked what Camaro really was (a car for a wide variety of people) and turned it into a no compromise, no excuses car.... which promptly failed so miserably that when it died, it stayed dead for over half a dozen years, and we're still waiting for it to return.

What excites me about this new Camaro is that GM seems to have learned it's lesson, and not letting the clueless crazies dictate what Camaro should be. Letting Camaro return to the car us older people remember it to be.

Any idiot can make a car that goes fast. Add horsepower. Go home.

But it takes real effort and comittment to make a car appeal to a wide swath of the buying public. It has to be practical. It has to be well made. It has to be fun to drive. It can be quick, but it can NOT scare the living daylights out of the average driver. It has to offer more value than it's competition. And most of all, it has to be a car that can stand on it's own merits, even without the most powerful engine option. The 4th gen was NOT that way. The 5th gen by every account is.

The performance of the V6 by every account I've read or heard so far is amazing (note... the lack of the disqualifier: "..for a V6"!). I'm getting the feeling that instead of a base afterthought and a hairy knuckled V8, we're also getting a car that betters a G37 coupe at a smaller price, better mileage, and better performance.... yet at a slightly lower weight (so much for calling the Camaro a bulky pig, huh? ;) ).

I can easily see myself getting a V6 6 speed manual Camaro if it's at least as quick as the LT1 was (which the LS1 was barley quicker than till well over 60mph).

I've been bidding my time waiting for the Holden Ute to show up. If GM does just one thing, you can count me in as a almost certain V6 Camaro buyer.... just one thing.....

NO SPEED GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!

With over 300 horsepower from the DI V6, that's going to be a nearly 160 mph V6.

Can't find anything wrong with that! :bow:

...
Tell me that I'm wrong. ;)
I can just see this huge smile across your face, Guy. :lol:

Need some help...which engine is this? It is a V6, I'm thinking the DI one.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/ccoop8830/n29100329_30635905_2171.jpg

Show

Me

The

Data.

I'm over it, we'll see what happens I guess. Show me the data that says no one wants an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro. I'm not against this V6 car. You could say it's more of a what if scenario.

I'm over it, we'll see what happens I guess. Show me the data that says no one wants an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro. I'm not against this V6 car. You could say it's more of a what if scenario.

Did someone make a claim that no one wanted an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro? I'm just wondering, because I didn't see that claim. You're right that is is a "what if" scenario, so I'd be surprised if anyone spent to money to collect empirical data.

I think the issue was with your claim everyone would rather sacrifice 1MPG to get a V8 with the same HP/TQ as a V6. Personally, I find that claim rather dubious, so it's fair to ask you for data. I don't expect that you have data, but I'm wondering what you base this opinion on. There are lots of people out there who can't tell the difference in sound between an I4, V6, and V8. I would think they'd rather take the V6 in your hypothetical scenario, so I think you're wrong. I have no data. Just another opinion.


By the way, I'd love an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro. I just don't think it's possible, given that an economical V8 would be expensive (though "economical" is subjective, and if you mean relative to a 1974 car, it would probably be pretty cheap to build a V8 that got 18mpg). Today, I'd consider "economical" to mean an EPA city of at least 20 and hwy of at least 28. A V8 that gets that kind of mileage would be expensive, and thus, not entry level.

But that's not even the top V6.

The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.

It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.



I thought that someone at Chevy had already admitted that the base V6 in the Camaro would be a DI V6, with similar HP to the one in the Traverse. That would give around 280. Regardless, if the weight is 3600, it should be a low 14 second car. The G35 has a little more power and the same weight and is high 13s in some tests.

I have to agree with your analysis.

I'd like to see 2 V6's and 3 V8's basically, but from the last two pages I see that it just won't happen. A lower powered, good MPG, entry level V8 is now blasphemy in todays market.

BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.

I'd like to see 2 V6's and 3 V8's basically, but from the last two pages I see that it just won't happen. A lower powered, good MPG, entry level V8 is now blasphemy in todays market.

Not blasphemy. It's just that if you're going for, say, 300hp, you can do it more cheaply and with better mileage with a V6. So the only takers you'd get would be those who really care about the number of cylinders being 8 instead of 6, yet for whatever reason don't want the high powered V8. That's going to be a really limited market, so you wouldn't sell many. So you'd lose money on the option.


BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only one I can truely come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could. I still think there's a market for that entry level V8, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.

Possible, of course. But the economics don't work. So not possible taking that into account. Just be happy that V6s are getting 300+hp and V8s are getting 400+. :D
There are plenty of cheap, low power V8s on the used market, btw. ;)

True. There seems to be a big gap between the 300HP V6 and the 400HP or more starting V8's though.

I'd like to see 2 V6's and 3 V8's basically, but from the last two pages I see that it just won't happen. A lower powered, good MPG, entry level V8 is now blasphemy in todays market.

BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
It wouldn't be insurance. Insurance rates aren't determined by the number of cylinders. If you have an I4, V6, or V8 that are worth the same and appeal to the same high risk drivers that wreck them, rates will be the same. My Formula is more or less the same for full coverage as the V6 was. In some areas of the country I think the V6 Mustang actually has higher rates than the GT. The Integra had very high rates as well in some areas.

If you made a small V8 that made the same power, got the same fuel economy and cost the same as a high performance V6 I do not think you would have any problems selling it. I think most car buyers might actually use those EPA fuel economy number things they put on the window. The problem is that there probably is a small fuel economy penalty and there is more cost. If the entry V8 isn't going to sell in numbers that might affect CAFE, it probably isn't worth the money to engineer and certify in the first place because it won't make that money back. At that point you hope that you can place the buyers that wanted such a motor into a V6 or the SS. There probably will only be a handful of people left that wouldn't take either and in the grand scheme it is alright not to make those sales because you came out ahead in profit.

why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro,
Because they're an import buyer considering their first american car and their shopping list begins with "sporty coupe", moves on to "good mileage" and "OHC", and ends with "no gas sucking V8".

You don't have to tell us you don't understand why people won't choose it. We know you don't understand why.

Try leaving a forum devoted to Chevys and visiting one devoted to many makes. If you're registered at Offtopic go visit their "Driven" subforums.

After you hear someone dismiss the Z06 C6 because it has pushrods and state that they bought a slower car for more money because it's "better", you'll understand why a 300 horse OHC V6 makes more sense than a 320 horse OHV V8 to a manufacturer that desperately needs conquest sales.

I don't want to be mean, but GM can't afford to build Z28.com's dream Camaro. They need to build a dream car for the pizza delivery guy looking to graduate from college and trade in his Scion.

....

Excellent post.

I'm over it, we'll see what happens I guess. Show me the data that says no one wants an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro..

No one? There's a few like you who do.

However, people who buy V8s today are doing so due to either being a luxury car status or they are doing it as performance car enthusiasts.

If you don't have any data, figures, or even examples to prove your position, the last and weakest (and to be honest, the most childish) way to make a point that doesn't exist is to make the other person prove it doesn't. Basically, it uses false logic in a logical way.

If "mid-level" V8s sold to regular buyers, there is no reason on the face of the planet that GM (or even Ford or Chrysler, let alone any import brand that offers V8s in their cars) would offer this. However, there isn't an automaker that does.

Fact is that everyone has done research on this. Everyone came to the same conclusions. Ford could have easily put a weaker "mid-grade V8" in the Mustang, right out of the Town Car-Crown Vic. Yes, they actually studied it some time ago. The result? Buyers would avoid it in favor of the regular V8.

Mustang V8s come in 2 versions: Affordable High Performance, and Open-your-wallet-and-pay High Performance. Ditto Chrysler. Ditto Mercedes. Ditto BMW. Now, even Lexus.

On a related note, performance buyers simply do not want their cars stripped or basic. This is backed by sales figures.

The Mustang GTS was a SN95 version of the Mustang LX. Never took off, and the model was cancelled.

The worse selling V8 powered LS1 4th gen F-body? The cheap Formula Firebird and the no-to-no optioned Camaro Z28.

There is no end to what many people (including yourself) strongly believe to be true. Personally, I believe the Camaro & Mustang should be Cobalt sized, packed with 300 horses, and take on cars like the Eclipse and would sell like gangbusters. However, unlike you, it seems I can count. I pull up the sales figures of the Mustang and look at not just the Eclipse, but also the Accord coupe, the G35 coupe, and others and see that Mustang is rolling over most all those other car's sales COMBINED!!!..... and I withdrawal my opinion since it doesn't hold up.

You need to realize the same, my friend.

Pull up the numbers to support your view, or all you're doing is blowing smoke. :lol:

Just take a good look at this thread from start to finish.

CamaroZ28.com is probally stuffed full of the most rabid, pro-V8 crowd of any website on the internet. Yet.....

...look at how many people here will readily accept a great performing V6!

There are those who personally prefer a V8, and clearly state that it's their personal preference. I'm not talking about the people living in some alternate universe who still somehow believe that a mid-level V8 is going to outsell a great V6, or that today the public at large still has a facination with V8 engines.

I wrote a thread a long time ago on how I felt that enthusiasts ruined the 4th gen Camaro. How these people hijacked what Camaro really was (a car for a wide variety of people) and turned it into a no compromise, no excuses car.... which promptly failed so miserably that when it died, it stayed dead for over half a dozen years, and we're still waiting for it to return.

What excites me about this new Camaro is that GM seems to have learned it's lesson, and not letting the clueless crazies dictate what Camaro should be. Letting Camaro return to the car us older people remember it to be.

Any idiot can make a car that goes fast. Add horsepower. Go home.

But it takes real effort and comittment to make a car appeal to a wide swath of the buying public. It has to be practical. It has to be well made. It has to be fun to drive. It can be quick, but it can NOT scare the living daylights out of the average driver. It has to offer more value than it's competition. And most of all, it has to be a car that can stand on it's own merits, even without the most powerful engine option. The 4th gen was NOT that way. The 5th gen by every account is.

The performance of the V6 by every account I've read or heard so far is amazing (note... the lack of the disqualifier: "..for a V6"!). I'm getting the feeling that instead of a base afterthought and a hairy knuckled V8, we're also getting a car that betters a G37 coupe at a smaller price, better mileage, and better performance.... yet at a slightly lower weight (so much for calling the Camaro a bulky pig, huh? ;) ).

I can easily see myself getting a V6 6 speed manual Camaro if it's at least as quick as the LT1 was (which the LS1 was barley quicker than till well over 60mph).

I've been bidding my time waiting for the Holden Ute to show up. If GM does just one thing, you can count me in as a almost certain V6 Camaro buyer.... just one thing.....

NO SPEED GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!

With over 300 horsepower from the DI V6, that's going to be a nearly 160 mph V6.

Can't find anything wrong with that! :bow:

Great Post!!!:bow:

Because they're an import buyer considering their first american car and their shopping list begins with "sporty coupe", moves on to "good mileage" and "OHC", and ends with "no gas sucking V8".

You don't have to tell us you don't understand why people won't choose it. We know you don't understand why.

Try leaving a forum devoted to Chevys and visiting one devoted to many makes. If you're registered at Offtopic go visit their "Driven" subforums.

After you hear someone dismiss the Z06 C6 because it has pushrods and state that they bought a slower car for more money because it's "better", you'll understand why a 300 horse OHC V6 makes more sense than a 320 horse OHV V8 to a manufacturer that desperately needs conquest sales.

I don't want to be mean, but GM can't afford to build Z28.com's dream Camaro. They need to build a dream car for the pizza delivery guy looking to graduate from college and trade in his Scion.

LOL at the Z06 comments. Some are truly unbelieveable. I guess that is all true. As I said before I'm probably simply not the target for the V6 and am all about V8's in general. (especially the top models) I hope if the economy and gas ever recovers enough that a decent base V8 would at least be given a second look to fill the 100 or more HP/TQ gap between the V6 and "base V8" 5th Gen. Seems like it's gonna be a quick V6 then right into "stupid-fast" V8's again with little middle ground. V8 fans have to get right into the 400HP range and who knows what price to have the kind of engine they prefer, that is alot for some average drivers/buyers though. But with gas going up everyday and automakers struggling, who knows how long V8's will even last.

Great Post!!!:bow:

I agree. It got me thinking...

Check this poll here...

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607527
(No threadjack intended)

Again, I'm not sure you are even tuned into the same conversation we're having here.

We're talking about a V6 Camaro that probally outperforms an LT1, and comes pretty close to acceleration of an LS1, and might actually beat it over a challenging road course.

We're also talikng about a V6 Camaro that's going to be cheaper to insure than a V8, will get better gas mileage than most of the high performance four cylinder imports, let alone most import V6s.


What does the LT1 have to do with anything? Why don't you compare it to a Model A? Then it will really look great.

The whole level of the game has been raised in the last 10 years. And an LT1 is obsolete.

If you want to compare the V6 to something...compare it to the Z28/SS. If you're somebody who want a sports car, or a fast car, or a Camaro...why would you buy the V6?

The V8 is always going to be the way to go. And, no, the V6 will not beat it on a road course.

I mean, if you want good fuel economy and want to save money...don't buy a sports car. Again, I'm sure people will buy them. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. People also buy Porsche SUV's and Ferrari's with automatics. That makes about as much sense as a Camaro with the lowline engine.

LOL at the Z06 comments. Some are truly unbelieveable. I guess that is all true. As I said before I'm probably simply not the target for the V6 and am all about V8's in general. (especially the top models)

Wait a minute...

If you could choose between a 300hp V6, a 300hp V8, and a 400hp V8, which would you choose? I thought you were agitating for a low power V8, but now it sounds like you want the top model. Or am I misreading?

What does the LT1 have to do with anything? Why don't you compare it to a Model A? Then it will really look great.

The whole level of the game has been raised in the last 10 years. And an LT1 is obsolete.

If you want to compare the V6 to something...compare it to the Z28/SS. If you're somebody who want a sports car, or a fast car, or a Camaro...why would you buy the V6?

The V8 is always going to be the way to go. And, no, the V6 will not beat it on a road course.

I mean, if you want good fuel economy and want to save money...don't buy a sports car. Again, I'm sure people will buy them. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. People also buy Porsche SUV's and Ferrari's with automatics. That makes about as much sense as a Camaro with the lowline engine.


What if you like the styling and handling of the Camaro, but don't want 400hp? It seems even less sensible to get 400hp if 300 is plenty for you.

Wait a minute...

If you could choose between a 300hp V6, a 300hp V8, and a 400hp V8, which would you choose? I thought you were agitating for a low power V8, but now it sounds like you want the top model. Or am I misreading?

Top model, but I sure know if I was looking for a daily driver RS-style Camaro I'd want the small V8. It would obviously have more TQ but would still have to be pretty economical, very close to the V6's MPG. I wasn't discussing this for myself. We can say what we want now, but the economy and gas prices in early 09 are what will truly decide what many people are actually going to buy.

At this rate, in a few years we'll be seeing a thread titled "The new Camaro inline 4 might be the best model of the entire lineup!". Maybe at that point, the Camaro will come with FWD and a hatchback. :rolleyes:

What if you like the styling and handling of the Camaro, but don't want 400hp? It seems even less sensible to get 400hp if 300 is plenty for you.

One thing you guys are off base about is that a 300Hp V6 is identical to a 300Hp V8. Not true.

One thing you guys are off base about is that a 300Hp V6 is identical to a 300Hp V8. Not true.thats why i'd take a V8.

I'll catch some flack for this, but whatever: I don't think there's a clear "winner" if you were to compare the two.

Take the LS4, and the LLT.
303hp/323lb.ft V8, and a 304hp/272lb.ft. V6

The V8 has more peak torque, and spends most of it's time above 300lb/ft.
But the 3.6L pulls hard all the way to 7000rpms. The V8 stops at 6000. And it has one of the most linear torque curves I've seen out of an engine (thanks to the VVT and DI). So unless someone wants to do some integration to find real numbers, it could be safely said that the V6 has the same, or possibly more power under the curve as the V8. All while having better fuel economy.

Unless someone's choosing based on principal of 8 cylinders alone, the V6 is, overall, a better engine! And I have a sneaking suspicion that GM tinkered with it, too. I don't think it's going to be a simple transplant from the CTS to Camaro.:shrug:

I just wish there was a focus group in St. Louis that I could be invited to. :)

I'll catch some flack for this, but whatever: I don't think there's a clear "winner" if you were to compare the two.

Take the LS4, and the LLT.
303hp/323lb.ft V8, and a 304hp/272lb.ft. V6

The V8 has more peak torque, and spends most of it's time above 300lb/ft.
But the 3.6L pulls hard all the way to 7000rpms. The V8 stops at 6000. And it has one of the most linear torque curves I've seen out of an engine (thanks to the VVT and DI). So unless someone wants to do some integration to find real numbers, it could be safely said that the V6 has the same, or possibly more power under the curve as the V8. All while having better fuel economy.

Unless someone's choosing based on principal of 8 cylinders alone, the V6 is, overall, a better engine! And I have a sneaking suspicion that GM tinkered with it, too. I don't think it's going to be a simple transplant from the CTS to Camaro.:shrug:

First, I don't think that's a fair comparison, because the LLT is a new generation, high technology engine. Multi-valve, DI VVT, DI, with a higher compression ratio.

But even then...ignoring that...the LS4 still wins. The peak hp/tq of the LLT is 6400 and 5200. For the LS4 it's 5600 and 4400. Big difference. Enough to make you want to get the V8.

If you care about that sort of thing. If you want a grocery-getter, you don't.

Top model, but I sure know if I was looking for a daily driver RS-style Camaro I'd want the small V8. It would obviously have more TQ but would still have to be pretty economical, very close to the V6's MPG. I wasn't discussing this for myself. We can say what we want now, but the economy and gas prices in early 09 are what will truly decide what many people are actually going to buy.

Ok, so you don't actually want one of these cars you're asking GM to build, then.

First, I don't think that's a fair comparison, because the LLT is a new generation, high technology engine. Multi-valve, DI VVT, DI, with a higher compression ratio.

But even then...ignoring that...the LS4 still wins. The peak hp/tq of the LLT is 6400 and 5200. For the LS4 it's 5600 and 4400. Big difference. Enough to make you want to get the V8.

If you care about that sort of thing. If you want a grocery-getter, you don't.

if they are geared similarly for their powerband, then the only real noticeable difference would come up if you lined them both up from a stop with slicks. also, you have to take into account the shape of the curves and how much hp/tq is falling off by the shiftpoint.

Ok, so you don't actually want one of these cars you're asking GM to build, then.

Nope, just making the case for it. They won't build it anyway.

if they are geared similarly for their powerband, then the only real noticeable difference would come up if you lined them both up from a stop with slicks. also, you have to take into account the shape of the curves and how much hp/tq is falling off by the shiftpoint.

Or if you lined them both up with street tires. And if both have manuals, you can shift wherever you want. The V8 wins.

Nope, just making the case for it. They won't build it anyway.

Yeah. I think a low power V8 is one of those things that people think would be popular, but which actually isn't. Those who actually care about V8s want the big one. Most of the rest are quite happy with a V6 that gives about the same power and better mileage. At least that's how it seems to me.

For me personally, I'd rather have a big six than a small V8. But a big V8 is usually best! :D

But a big V8 is usually best! :D

Of course, of course. Why are people disputing that?

Sounds to me like a V6 is still going to be slow and not worth it.... lets compare it to a 4 door... like a 2008 Camry V6, runs 14.6@95 with 20 mph head winds... I got one and took it to the track a couple days ago. Not bad, but not fast. And those numbers (maybe a couple tenths faster) would be my guess for the 300hp V6 camaro, judging by the Caddy numbers. And my camry gets 19/28 mpg.

My 2 cents...

If you're somebody who want a sports car, or a fast car, or a Camaro...why would you buy the V6?

The V8 is always going to be the way to go. And, no, the V6 will not beat it on a road course.

I mean, if you want good fuel economy and want to save money...don't buy a sports car. Again, I'm sure people will buy them. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. People also buy Porsche SUV's and Ferrari's with automatics. That makes about as much sense as a Camaro with the lowline engine.

I had a feeling of deja vue when I read these statements; I've heard them before, and not sure why. I mean, can't we all get along? lol Just kidding...

But no, seriously, there are many reasons people will buy a V6 while wanting a 'sports car', even though that ideal is different in different people's minds. I've seen the identity of the Camaro and the Mustang argued over what they should be called, and to me it really doesn't matter. If I think the V6, after seeing it and seeing how it performs, is a sports car that performs well, then that's all that matters. I'm not taking it to the track, I probably won't (unless being stupid) street or stop light race it, either. So in my mind, and in the mind of other potential buyers, it could be the dream car, however we envision our dream car to be.

Also, to hear someone ask why should you get a V6 if you want a REAL sports car, reminds me of the people who laugh at my little cruiser street bike that's NOT a Harley, it's NOT big, and it's NOT loud. It's like they're saying, why do you have a bike, dude, if it's not loud and super fast or super cool like mine? Seems kind of a snobbish attitude to me, but then that's just me. :D

Saying the Camaro with a V6 is the better version though is like saying the new Malibus are true Malibus or the little 4 banger novas were real novas. lol Not the same as your bike. ;) That would be like buying a street bike with all the racing farrings with a slow ass motor. Dont know much about bikes btw, but basically buying something that looks fast that isn't or that you could have gotten the bigger motor and calling it better than the faster one.

First, I don't think that's a fair comparison, because the LLT is a new generation, high technology engine. Multi-valve, DI VVT, DI, with a higher compression ratio.

But even then...ignoring that...the LS4 still wins. The peak hp/tq of the LLT is 6400 and 5200. For the LS4 it's 5600 and 4400. Big difference. Enough to make you want to get the V8.

If you care about that sort of thing. If you want a grocery-getter, you don't.

It's all we've got to compare it with. When GM makes a 300 horse V8 because it's better than the V6, I'll edit the post. ;) (just a joke, don't throttle me! :eek:)

I realize that the V8 has more torque, and gets to it sooner, but so it goes with V8s - and the reason they're so fun!! You will never hear me dispute that. I was only trying to make the point, that overall, when you take into account their redlines, weight savings in all-else-the-same vehicles, and power under the curve (the real decider). There really is is no clear winner.

Now, after reading all that would you believe I'm a V8 die-hard?:lol:

Also, to hear someone ask why should you get a V6 if you want a REAL sports car, reminds me of the people who laugh at my little cruiser street bike that's NOT a Harley, it's NOT big, and it's NOT loud. It's like they're saying, why do you have a bike, dude, if it's not loud and super fast or super cool like mine? Seems kind of a snobbish attitude to me, but then that's just me. :D

Good points....but I would say a cruiser makes sense, and a pocket rocket makes sense...but getting a cruiser where you have to ride bent over doesn't make sense. And a slow pocket rocket doesn't make sense.

Similarly, the slow version of a camaro doesn't make sense...to me. A slow sports car doesn't make sense. But i hear what you're saying.

It's all we've got to compare it with. When GM makes a 300 horse V8 because it's better than the V6, I'll edit the post. ;) (just a joke, don't throttle me! :eek:)

I realize that the V8 has more torque, and gets to it sooner, but so it goes with V8s - and the reason they're so fun!! You will never hear me dispute that. I was only trying to make the point, that overall, when you take into account their redlines, weight savings in all-else-the-same vehicles, and power under the curve (the real decider). There really is is no clear winner.

Now, after reading all that would you believe I'm a V8 die-hard?:lol:

Again, good points. But more torque is always going to be the winner. As you said, more area under the curve. By far, the LS4 wins. It's the "clear winner."

Take a look at these two

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/HPT%20Library/HFV6/2008_36L_VVT_DI_LLT_CTS.pdf
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/HPT%20Library/Gen%20IV/Gen%20IV%20Car/08_LS4/2008_5300_LS4_Impala%20SS.pdf

Torque equals speed. Early torque means more speed. And, I don't recall exactly because it's been a long time...but I don't think the area under a torque curve is power, I think it's either energy or impulse. But it's not power.

Yeah, I guess I forgot to point it out in my last post, but the LS4 has 50 more ft-lbs. So how is it even close? At 1500 rpm, the LS4 already has hit more torque than the LLT does at it's 5400 rpm peak torque. The V8 wins, hands down. :confused:

If I had my choice of engines in the Camaro, I'd take the LS7... but it's all good. :death:

Ok, so you don't actually want one of these cars you're asking GM to build, then.

Bullseye! :thumb:


Nope, just making the case for it. They won't build it anyway.

Let me get this straight:

1. You have no data to support your view that a midgrade V8 would sell.

2. There is plenty of evidence and studies from Ford and apparently GM as well that a mid grade V8 won't sell.

3. Despite this, you are still pushing the view that GM should make this vehicle anyway.

4. You have no intention of buiying it yourself if GM actually did make it.

There is a word for a person like this, but it escapes me at the moment.

But it isn't nice. :lol:

If I had my choice of engines in the Camaro, I'd take the LS7... but it's all good. :death:
You and me, both. :bow:

I was actually looking at those graphs when I was typing. :p (fwiw, I thought the LS4's torque curve was unimpressive in the higher rpm range).

When it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter which is better. And this isn't a quick exit from the 'debate'...it's my honest opinion. The disciples drove the V6 car, and came back blown away. So no matter what else could have been done, it's safe to say those buyers will be impressed, and the V6 Camaro will not be an 'afterthought' as it has been on many of the cars to date. Can we agree on that?:)

Sounds to me like a V6 is still going to be slow and not worth it.... lets compare it to a 4 door... like a 2008 Camry V6, runs 14.6@95 with 20 mph head winds... I got one and took it to the track a couple days ago. Not bad, but not fast. And those numbers (maybe a couple tenths faster) would be my guess for the 300hp V6 camaro, judging by the Caddy numbers. And my camry gets 19/28 mpg.

My 2 cents...

The Toyota Camry V6 Automatic gets 19/28 MPG, and isn't available with a manual.

The Toyota also has a 268 horsepower engine with 248 ft/lbs of torque and depending on the model weighs between 3440 and 3495 pounds.

Only an absolute idiot and utter moron would use the Toyota Camry's performance as a putdown. The Camry IS NOT SLOW!

It does 0-60 mph in a mere 5.8 seconds, and most all tests put it at 6 seconds or less. For a sedan that has no real performance aspirations and is a family car (it's suspension tuning and handling is far from "sporting"), that is pretty frigging quick. A Pontiac GXP 5.3 is about that quick stock.

The subject, a V6, mid level Camaro with a manual 6 speed manual transmission, is a different subject.

50/50 weight distribution, performance tune suspension, a high revving 300+ horse V6 with 273 ft/lbs of torque on a car that's likely less than 100 pounds heavier and the proper number of doors and the correct wheels delivering the power.

If you get your rocks off tooting a Toyota Camary around simply because it has hot 0-60 numbers, more power to you. But when you actually want to have fun with a automobile that doesn't understeer you into a tree on a curve, doesn't ride like it has marshmellows in place of shocks, and has a bit more curb appeal than a mailbox, realize that any sub 5.9 second V6 powered car is extremely impressive, a 300 horse 6 speed Camaro that fits roughly between an LT1 and an LS1 that gets better fuel economy than imported performance 4 cylinder cars is not just impressive... It ROCKS! :bow:

BTW: The Toyota Camry with that V6 STARTS at $27,520!!!!! :eek:

For $1000 less, you can get a very nice Mustang GT V8 that will smoke it, and for probally the same.... or even less money... you'd be able to get that Direct Injected 300 horse Camaro.

You stick with your beloved Camry..... I'll throw my lot with Camaro that should also show it a pair of tail lights. :p

When it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter which is better. And this isn't a quick exit from the 'debate'...it's my honest opinion. The disciples drove the V6 car, and came back blown away. So no matter what else could have been done, it's safe to say those buyers will be impressed, and the V6 Camaro will not be an 'afterthought' as it has been on many of the cars to date. Can we agree on that?:)

Definitely agree on that. And I don't doubt they'll sell a ton of them. Of the Big 3, it seems to be GM that's really pulling it's act together.

Bullseye! :thumb:




Let me get this straight:

1. You have no data to support your view that a midgrade V8 would sell.

2. There is plenty of evidence and studies from Ford and apparently GM as well that a mid grade V8 won't sell.

3. Despite this, you are still pushing the view that GM should make this vehicle anyway.

4. You have no intention of buiying it yourself if GM actually did make it.

There is a word for a person like this, but it escapes me at the moment.

But it isn't nice. :lol:

Apparent data and studies doesn't say much, you have none yourself. I think it would be a good seller, (especially if economy gets better) already a concern of many seems to be no V8 below $30,000. If I was going for that entry level car I'd take the V8, without question. I think the 300HP 13.8-14.0 1/4 GT has proven a good seller, and that really is like a low/mid model for a Camaro. That's like bolt-on L98/stock LT1 territory.

BTW, theres a word for a person that thinks the LS1's and current GT are equal in speed: Dense. :lol:

Apparent data and studies doesn't say much, you have none yourself. I think it would be a good seller, (especially if economy gets better) already a concern of many seems to be no V8 below $30,000. If I was going for that entry level car I'd take the V8, without question. I think the 300HP 13.8 1/4 GT has proven a good seller, and that really is like a low/mid model for a Camaro. That's like bolt-on L98/stock LT1 territory.


In spite of that, I expect the Mustang V8 to increase to closer to 400hp and the V6 to 'replace' the V8 at the 300hp level (at least that's what the rumors say).

In fact, Ford is substituting V6s for V8s all over.

I can honestly see that working against them. Average buyers that want a V8 will have to pay for alot more power and a car that's alot faster than they might have really wanted or needed. The decently powered "base V8" type of GT has worked good for them, it appeals to alot of people. V8's will start getting restricted to people that are more on the enthusiast side and only those that can afford the top cars, everyone else has to buy a V6 or nothing at all. That's fine for cars not in this segment that have made their image on the V8.

All I got to say I own two Turbo V6 F-Bodies with every option you can think of on both of them and neither one of them is slow. People who bash V6 cars just because of the exhaust sound crack me up.

The Toyota Camry V6 Automatic gets 19/28 MPG, and isn't available with a manual.

The Toyota also has a 268 horsepower engine with 248 ft/lbs of torque and depending on the model weighs between 3440 and 3495 pounds.

Only an absolute idiot and utter moron would use the Toyota Camry's performance as a putdown. The Camry IS NOT SLOW!

It does 0-60 mph in a mere 5.8 seconds, and most all tests put it at 6 seconds or less. For a sedan that has no real performance aspirations and is a family car (it's suspension tuning and handling is far from "sporting"), that is pretty frigging quick. A Pontiac GXP 5.3 is about that quick stock.

The subject, a V6, mid level Camaro with a manual 6 speed manual transmission, is a different subject.

50/50 weight distribution, performance tune suspension, a high revving 300+ horse V6 with 273 ft/lbs of torque on a car that's likely less than 100 pounds heavier and the proper number of doors and the correct wheels delivering the power.

If you get your rocks off tooting a Toyota Camary around simply because it has hot 0-60 numbers, more power to you. But when you actually want to have fun with a automobile that doesn't understeer you into a tree on a curve, doesn't ride like it has marshmellows in place of shocks, and has a bit more curb appeal than a mailbox, realize that any sub 5.9 second V6 powered car is extremely impressive, a 300 horse 6 speed Camaro that fits roughly between an LT1 and an LS1 that gets better fuel economy than imported performance 4 cylinder cars is not just impressive... It ROCKS! :bow:

BTW: The Toyota Camry with that V6 STARTS at $27,520!!!!! :eek:

For $1000 less, you can get a very nice Mustang GT V8 that will smoke it, and for probally the same.... or even less money... you'd be able to get that Direct Injected 300 horse Camaro.

You stick with your beloved Camry..... I'll throw my lot with Camaro that should also show it a pair of tail lights. :p

hmmm, never said it was a manual, never said it was a "sports car", never said it handled good, never said it was faster than a Mustang GT, never said its cheap, never said it was fast, never said any of that. All I said, is that if a 300hp V6 Camaro pulled up next to me on the streets, it would be a very close race, which is shouldn't be. A V6 Camaro would not be "fast", maybe quick, but not fast. And I didn't mention anything about 0-60 times either, just quarter mile times. Point is V6 Camaro<V8 Camaro no matter how you look at it, maybe more practical, but thats not the point of a Camaro, nor has it ever been. Even with gas prices the way they are, you dont buy a Camaro to get good gas mileage. And I'd be willing to bet that the gas mileage difference between the V8 and the V6 isn't going to be more than a few mpg, which doesn't really work out to much money. High output V6s are great, but just not for american muscle. (with the exception of cyclones, typhoons and GNs :) )

I don't understand why they just don't use the same line up as the G8. One V6 and Two V8s. I would take a L76 like engine if the price is under 30k and deal with the 15 -16 mpg city.

I personally will be buying the high hp Camaro, whatever it may be. I have a Saturn for a daily driver. I love the idea of a high powered V6 though, because it will sell, and it should keep the Camaro alive for years to come.

That alone is a good thing, especially after the 6+ year void the automotive world has been left with.

I also can't wait to see a Mustang GT unknowingly pull up to a V6 Camaro, and have to stop to pick up his doors... (Of course, I'll be out in the lead, over both of them! :D)

All things being equal, I would take a V8.

But the last few newer cars I drove more than got out of their way with a 6 and I would gladly take a more powerful V6 Camaro considering it would probably cost 20% less to buy and own. :shrug:

i might buy a v6 camaro but i wont touch a v8. the cost of the car and the gas to put in it probably put it out of my reach or just no worth the cost of ownership for me.


i really wonder how new gas standard will effect the camaro. i also wonder how high gas prices will effect it to as gm has already axed zeta rwds.

All I said, is that if a 300hp V6 Camaro pulled up next to me on the streets, it would be a very close race, which is shouldn't be.

You're probably correct, but is this because the Camaro will be especially "slow" or because family sedans have gotten ridiculously fast for their purpose over the last decade? I never thought I'd see a day where people would be upset that a V6 Camaro "only" had 300 horsepower and will likely "only" be able to muster up 14s in the quarter. The 2010 V6 Camaro will probably be faster than 90% of the Camaros ever made and pretty much all of them (except '89 Turbo TA) between 1974 and 1992!

Point is V6 Camaro<V8 Camaro no matter how you look at it, maybe more practical, but thats not the point of a Camaro, nor has it ever been.

I'd say the V8 being greater than the V6 is unequivocally true, but that doesn't mean that a Camaro can't be a practical car. Pony Cars are supposed to be affordable, stylish and fun cars that you can equip as a reasonably priced daily driver all the way up to a firebreather. That's the way it has always been. A Camaro may end up running a close race with your Camry but Camaro>Camry in any calculation I can make.

Even with gas prices the way they are, you dont buy a Camaro to get good gas mileage. And I'd be willing to bet that the gas mileage difference between the V8 and the V6 isn't going to be more than a few mpg, which doesn't really work out to much money.

Probably not, but once you figure in the purchase price, that can be a factor. I can only afford to have one daily driver. I have to drive it nearly 50 miles a day. I also have to be able to afford it and insure it. If all I can do is a 6 cylinder 2010, I'll choose it with no regrets over dozens of faster cars.

High output V6s are great, but just not for american muscle. (with the exception of cyclones, typhoons and GNs :) )[/QUOTE]

What about 20th Anniversary Turbo Pace Car Trans Ams? ;)

Originally Posted by Eric77TA:
The 2010 V6 Camaro will probably be faster than 90% of the Camaros ever made and pretty much all of them (except '89 Turbo TA) between 1974 and 1992!
I doubt it, but i guess we'll see...I think Charlie's pet peeve will likely keep this V6 Camaro from being all that.:p
(That and less torque...)

I doubt it, but i guess we'll see...I think Charlie's pet peeve will likely keep this V6 Camaro from being all that.:p
(That and less torque...)

I'd guess that the 2010 V6 will be faster than:

Pretty much any 1967-73 Camaro below an SS396 or Z/28

Pretty much any Camaro from 1974-1992 with the exception of a few later TPIs and L98s.

So that will leave only the first gen SS396 and Z28s, early second gens and the 4th gens.

More than half of total Camaro production is the lesser performing 2nd and 3rd gens. The Camaros bestselling years were years where the Z28 was making 175 horsepower or less.

There were some 260-270,000 V8 4th Gen. Camaros (SS and Z28) built between 1993 and 2002.

There were more than 686,000 Z28s and IROC-Zs made between 1974 and 1992 and those are the outstanding performers of those generations - and I'd guess the 2010 V6 will outperform the vast majority of them - and for every one of those "high performance" models, there were four or five cars built with a 105 horsepower V6 or 140 horse 305.

So, if it can run high 14s, yes, I'd say it will be faster than 9 out of 10 Camaros ever built.

I hope GM puts the same manual tranny behind both the V8 and the V6. The lack of a 6spd keeps me from picking up a V6 f-body right now...

That would be because a v6 fbody doesnt have the torque to survive a 6th gear well on the highway.

That would be because a v6 fbody doesnt have the torque to survive a 6th gear well on the highway.

It's looking pretty certain that both the V8 and V6 will have the 6 speed manual (Cadillac has a 6 speed manual on the DI 3.6 already).

There were some 260-270,000 V8 4th Gen. Camaros (SS and Z28) built between 1993 and 2002.

So, if it can run high 14s, yes, I'd say it will be faster than 9 out of 10 Camaros ever built.Judging by the Cadillac CTS, it should be faster than LT1 4th gens.

Judging by the Cadillac CTS, it should be faster than LT1 4th gens.

I dont know about that... last I checked a slow LT1 still runs low 14s...

And as for the cant afford two daily drivers, well I guess most people cant, but I wouldn't buy a Camaro to commute in. I got a 50 mile commute too to work and back, and wouldn't buy a V6 anyways. I'd buy a V8 and a cheap $2K commuter before I got a V6. But I mean, all we are really argueing about is opinions for the most part. Once we see some real numbers, we can have real arguments. I mean, most of the argument is based on gas mileage, which we dont really know what it will get or the V8.

But I mean, its just based on what is a better buy for you... not what is better, because everyone has their own standards. Its like which is better a Evo or a regular lancer? Most people on here would probably say the Evo, but you ask an old lady and she probably wouldn't hesitate saying the Lancer, that is if she knows the difference. lol

Originally Posted by Eric77TA:
I'd guess that the 2010 V6 will be faster than:

Pretty much any 1967-73 Camaro below an SS396 or Z/28

Pretty much any Camaro from 1974-1992 with the exception of a few later TPIs and L98s.

So that will leave only the first gen SS396 and Z28s, early second gens and the 4th gens.

More than half of total Camaro production is the lesser performing 2nd and 3rd gens. The Camaros bestselling years were years where the Z28 was making 175 horsepower or less.
But let's not forget the 5th gens 500-600lb weight penalty?..

There were some 260-270,000 V8 4th Gen. Camaros (SS and Z28) built between 1993 and 2002.
I know you're not suggesting it'll be faster than an LT1 or LS1 Z28??:lol:;)
There were more than 686,000 Z28s and IROC-Zs made between 1974 and 1992 and those are the outstanding performers of those generations - and I'd guess the 2010 V6 will outperform the vast majority of them -
Uh, we'll see............
..and for every one of those "high performance" models, there were four or five cars built with a 105 horsepower V6 or 140 horse 305.No arguments there...

So, if it can run high 14s, yes, I'd say it will be faster than 9 out of 10 Camaros ever built.I'd change that to 6 of 10 maybe?...most 2nd gen Z with 350's could hit high 14's, 3rd gen TPi's from '88-'92 with L98's mid to LOW 14's and 4th gen LT1's creeping into the high 13's with LS1 elites knocking on the high 12's!:eek::metal: __________________

most 2nd gen Z with 350's could hit high 14's

You've forgotten the 70s, my friend. Smog controls choked even the Z28s down to 200 or less hp, while safety and bumper standards ballooned weights up to 3700-3800 pounds. Any car that could dip into the 16s in a 1/4 mile was a fast car. By 1985, the 305TPI could get into the low 15s, and was the fastest American car (other than the Corvette) since the 1974 Super Duty Firebird.

Very few 2nd gen Z's with 350s could hit high 14s. Probably only the 1970.5 and maybe 1971 models.

I don't see how the V6 5thgen will take out a 6spd LT1 4thgen all things being equal. That is unless they really shock us w/ the weight (I'm figuring the V6 will weigh at least 3500-3600 lbs if not more) and/or up the power on the 3.6l DI a fair change to liek 320hp or so.

With 300hp and 3550 lbs it's 100 pounds or so heavier than a LT1 car, putting out right at the same HP at the crank in reality, and is going to be welll down on torque.

LT1 FTW I'm betting, I hope I'm wrong though. The faster the 5thgen is the better...

I don't see how the V6 5thgen will take out a 6spd LT1 4thgen all things being equal. That is unless they really shock us w/ the weight (I'm figuring the V6 will weigh at least 3500-3600 lbs if not more) and/or up the power on the 3.6l DI a fair change to liek 320hp or so.

With 300hp and 3550 lbs it's 100 pounds or so heavier than a LT1 car, putting out right at the same HP at the crank in reality, and is going to be welll down on torque.

LT1 FTW I'm betting, I hope I'm wrong though. The faster the 5thgen is the better...

do we have an official weight yet? i keep hearing estimated weights but i dont think i have seen any posted.

i dont know lt1 is only 275 crank hp and this v6 would be 300 i think it would really come down to the trq and the power band as well as weight. you also have to factor in traction and how much drive train loss is coming from the independent rear.


if the lt1 is faster thought i dont think we will be talking alot faster.

The LLT also has ~1300 more rpms to work with than the LT1.:shrug:

BTW, theres a word for a person that thinks the LS1's and current GT are equal in speed: Dense. :lol:

Nope, not dense..... the word for someone like that is literate. :p

Car and Driver, December 2004, Article: "Ford Mustang GT Road Test": 2005 Ford Mustang GT:
0-60 mph- 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile- 13.8@ 102 mph

Car and Driver, February 1999, Article: "Camaro vs Mustang GT Again" : Camaro Z28:
0-60- 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile- 13.8@104 mph

I can honestly see that working against them. Average buyers that want a V8 will have to pay for alot more power and a car that's alot faster than they might have really wanted or needed. The decently powered "base V8" type of GT has worked good for them, it appeals to alot of people. V8's will start getting restricted to people that are more on the enthusiast side and only those that can afford the top cars, everyone else has to buy a V6 or nothing at all. That's fine for cars not in this segment that have made their image on the V8.

Again, I question weather or not you actually read or have a foot in what's actually going on in the market.

Mustang GT isn't a "middle" V8 as you are implying. Mustang comes in 2 versions: V6 and V8. Period. The Shelby GT500 is a special, high priced performance car. Camaro will also have a high priced performance version. If you call the GT a mid-level V8, then the V8 Camaro coming next winter is also a mid-level V8 as well.

Finally, once again, perhaps you actually should check out things for yourself as to what is actually selling, what is actually workable. I am aware of Ford's study on a "mid_V8 which didn't turn out favorable. People who would actually pay for a V8 option do so because of the percieved performance of the V8. Also, people who buy V8s tend to also load their cars up with options... in short, don't want strippers.

This is also likely the same result GM got that Scott is refering to. Of everyone involved with Camaro, Scott is a walking encyclopedia of Camaro knowledge and has access to literally every study, every figure, and every piece of data on what Camaro buyers want and what it's going to take to bring in more buyers.

If you want to blow me off, blow off the studies Ford did on this, blow off actual sales figures, blow off buyer preferences, and blow off $4+ per gallon fuel, you're pretty much dead in the area of credibility if you also blow off the studies Scott has as well.

hmmm, never said it was a manual, never said it was a "sports car", never said it handled good, never said it was faster than a Mustang GT, never said its cheap, never said it was fast, never said any of that. All I said, is that if a 300hp V6 Camaro pulled up next to me on the streets, it would be a very close race, which is shouldn't be...

This is frigging stupid!

A base Camaro shouldn't be as quick as a loaded, fastest, most expensive family sedan?!

Then you backpeddle by saying that "never said it was a manual, never said it was a "sports car", never said it handled good, never said it was faster than a Mustang GT, never said its cheap, never said it was fast, never said any of that." Did you eat lead paint as a kid?

Camaro IS NOT about having the fastest ride on the street no more than it is for Mustang. Never was the case. Name any base or mid level Camaro ever in history that was quicker than every family sedan on the market.

Also, being that cars are quicker today, that means more are going to be grouped together in 0-60. But it's downright stupid not to mention shallow to look at a 0-60 number and ignore cost, handling, market position, or even if the thing is sporty and hold it up as what a Camaro isn't.

Thankfully, it isn't.

I dont know about that... last I checked a slow LT1 still runs low 14s...

And as for the cant afford two daily drivers, well I guess most people cant, but I wouldn't buy a Camaro to commute in. I got a 50 mile commute too to work and back, and wouldn't buy a V6 anyways. I'd buy a V8 and a cheap $2K commuter before I got a V6. But I mean, all we are really argueing about is opinions for the most part. Once we see some real numbers, we can have real arguments. I mean, most of the argument is based on gas mileage, which we dont really know what it will get or the V8.

But I mean, its just based on what is a better buy for you... not what is better, because everyone has their own standards. Its like which is better a Evo or a regular lancer? Most people on here would probably say the Evo, but you ask an old lady and she probably wouldn't hesitate saying the Lancer, that is if she knows the difference. lol

1. I use my B4C Camaro as a commuter. I bought it for that purpose while I used my SC as the so-called "Garage Car".

2. Most Mustang buyers are younger adults who use it as their only car. Most Mustangs are V6s. Most V6 buyers are men.

3. We actually do have numbers. Engines are already in production in heavier cars, so we have a very good figures to base mpg numbers on.

4. The people buying EVOs are fairly well off. They cost more than a G8 GT, and insurence on them is astronomical. If anyone is dead set in concrete on a small Mitsubishi sedan, for 95% of them the better car is the Lancer. It shows in sales figures. Last I checked, only about 8-9000 Evos are sold annually. That's equal to 2-3 months of Corvette production.

5. The median age of a Lancer buyer is in the late 20s, so it's doubtful there's more than a couple of "little old ladies" driving them.

And as for the cant afford two daily drivers, well I guess most people cant, but I wouldn't buy a Camaro to commute in. I got a 50 mile commute too to work and back, and wouldn't buy a V6 anyways. I'd buy a V8 and a cheap $2K commuter before I got a V6.

No one is asking, telling, making, or insinuating that you should buy a V6, but as someone who's considering one as a daily driver, you likewise can't tell me that there's anything wrong with that.

If I spend well over 20 grand on something, I'm going to drive it every day and enjoy it. I already have my 77 Trans Am that gets driven less than 2000 miles a year. I don't need another car I can't/won't drive all the time.

I haven't ruled out a V8, but with all the costs factored in, and the fact that I'm driving this car every day no matter what the powerplant, I'm leaning toward the 6 and I won't regret it if that's what I get.

But let's not forget the 5th gens 500-600lb weight penalty?...

Vs the super high production 2nd gens? By the early mid 70s most Camaros were 3600 plus. So the penalty will be more like a couple of hundred pounds. But those cars had 165, 175 horses.

I know you're not suggesting it'll be faster than an LT1 or LS1 Z28??:lol:;)

No, what I'm saying that the extremely fast LS1s and LT1s made between 1993 and 2002 are only 270,000 cars. There were more BASE Camaros made than that in just 1977 and 1978.
-
Uh, we'll see............

I don't think that there's really much to see about. A CTS would handily best most of those cars and I expect the Camaro to run a little better.

...most 2nd gen Z with 350's could hit high 14's

This is not true. 1974 Z28: 245 horsepower, 1975, no Z28, top V8: 155 horsepower, 1976 no Z28, top V8: 165 horsepower, 1977 Z28: 185 horsepower, 1978 Z28: 185 horsepower, 1979 Z28: 175 horsepower, 1980 Z28: 165 horsepower or 190 horsepower, 1981 Z28: 165 horsepower or 175 horsepower.

3rd gen TPi's from '88-'92 with L98's mid to LOW 14's

I'm not disagreeing with you on that particular point, but that's 5 years out of the 11 year run of the 3rd gens, and even then not representative of the majority of the cars built.

1982 Z28: 145 horsepower or 165 horsepower, 1983 Z28: 150, 175, 190 horsepower available, 1984 Z28: 150 horsepower or 190 horsepower, 1985 Z28 155, 190, 215 (IROC-Z), 1986 Z28 165, 190, 220 (IROC-Z), 1987 Z28: 1709, 190, 215, 225 (IROC-Z), 1988 IROC-Z: 170, 195, 220, 230 (L98 350), 1989 IROC-Z: 170, 195, 220, 230 (L98), 240 (L98 w/ dual cat performance package), 1990 IROC-Z: 210, 230 (L98), 240 (L98 w/ dual cat performance package), 1991 Z28: 205, 230 (L98), 240 (L98 w/ dual cat performance package), 1992 Z28: 205, 230, 245 (L98)

and 4th gen LT1's creeping into the high 13's with LS1 elites knocking on the high 12's!:eek::metal: __________________

Right, and I wasnt including these. I was using them as an example of a quarter million extremely fast Camaros out of several million built.

I spent the 1980s reading road tests of pony cars that were doing 16 second quarter miles and I remember when the TPIs and Mustang HOs got into the 15s, it was amazing. Performance was back! That doesn't look like anything now, but it was awesome then. Very few of the road tests of those cars had the cars breaking much lower than a 15 flat (and the Mustangs always won, much to my chagrin).

Then, I can remember being on a bus trip to New York and I had the issue of Automobile Magazine that had the spy shots and advance intel on the 1993 Camaro and Firebird (pretty much undisguised) a long time before they came out. They were saying that the V8 models were going to have 275 horsepower and 6 speeds and I just couldn't believe it would actually happen. ALL V8 Camaros and Firebirds were going to be 350s? We were finally going to beat Mustang. And we did!

I never thought at the time I'd be on a message board 16 years later with a bunch of folks lamenting the V6 Camaro only having 300 horsepower!

I never thought at the time I'd be on a message board 16 years later with a bunch of folks lamenting the V6 Camaro only having 300 horsepower!
You probably never expected to see 300hp coming out of a V6 either, huh? :p

Hmm we are putting up a scenario of a camry racing a camaro... When has anyone ever had someone with a camry pushing his "performance" car and reving at you at a red? If so you really need to take stock of how rediculous that situation is.

Its like having a honda civic that can turn a 12.xx et... its surprising yet still looks fugly..

There is a market for the V6, and one for a V8. Be happy you can get your V8 becuase the V6 makes that possible.

I haven't read through this whole post so forgive me if someone's already done the calculations.

Since there's been some talk of area under the curve, I decided to do some approximate integration. If I did my calculations right, (and I hope I did because it was a pain) here is what I got...

Using these dyno charts:

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/HPT%20Library/Gen%20IV/Gen%20IV%20Car/08_LS4/2008_5300_LS4_Impala%20SS.pdf
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/HPT%20Library/HFV6/2008_36L_VVT_DI_LLT_CTS.pdf

LS4 830,900
LLT 764,400

Take it for what its worth... (if anything)

edit

LT1 809,620

If anyone has dynos for other engines let me know and I'll do 'em.

Nope, not dense..... the word for someone like that is literate. :p

Car and Driver, December 2004, Article: "Ford Mustang GT Road Test": 2005 Ford Mustang GT:
0-60 mph- 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile- 13.8@ 102 mph

Car and Driver, February 1999, Article: "Camaro vs Mustang GT Again" : Camaro Z28:
0-60- 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile- 13.8@104 mph

Can't agree. The other guys in the Challenger post have already said enough so I won't jump in on it here. ;)

Again, I question weather or not you actually read or have a foot in what's actually going on in the market.

Mustang GT isn't a "middle" V8 as you are implying. Mustang comes in 2 versions: V6 and V8. Period. The Shelby GT500 is a special, high priced performance car. Camaro will also have a high priced performance version. If you call the GT a mid-level V8, then the V8 Camaro coming next winter is also a mid-level V8 as well.

Finally, once again, perhaps you actually should check out things for yourself as to what is actually selling, what is actually workable. I am aware of Ford's study on a "mid_V8 which didn't turn out favorable. People who would actually pay for a V8 option do so because of the percieved performance of the V8. Also, people who buy V8s tend to also load their cars up with options... in short, don't want strippers.

This is also likely the same result GM got that Scott is refering to. Of everyone involved with Camaro, Scott is a walking encyclopedia of Camaro knowledge and has access to literally every study, every figure, and every piece of data on what Camaro buyers want and what it's going to take to bring in more buyers.

We can kinda call the GT and Camaro V8 next year a "base V8." I would just hope if the economy and gas prices change for the better that maybe both companies will give the idea a second look.

Ok, so for those of you arguing with me about this, you still dont get my point, and my point is the V6 Camaro is not going to be better than the V8 version. Maybe get better gas mileage and be cheaper, but that doesn't make it better. And as for my Camry being a rediculous comparison, the point was that the standards for fast have gone up (not talking handling or anything else). In the market, there are classifications and my guess is the Camaro will be classified as a sports car, in which case it should be faster than a Camry. Fast depends on who you ask, and fast for me isn't a stock Camry. Even if it is fast for a sedan. So a V6 Camaro is not fast if it runs mid 14s.

Oh and I'm not going to go find numbers or make it look like I found number to back up what I'm saying to validate what I stated and try to look smarter, because its an opinion and I dont need to make myself feel smart. lol


Lets see what you can pick apart and post up something about how your right and I'm wrong because you think you are and validate it with numbers which have nothing to do with my point. lol

We can kinda call the GT and Camaro V8 next year a "base V8." I would just hope if the economy and gas prices change for the better that maybe both companies will give the idea a second look.

Gas prices aren't going to be going down... at least not any time soon. My company is looking at running some sythetic crudes, but even when we run that, it still wont drop gas prices much, maybe keep it steady though. But anything can happen so cant say anything for sure.

The gas and economy simply can't stay this way, recessions bounce back. We're not all rich and something has to happen at some point to turn it around. (we hope)

Ok, so for those of you arguing with me about this, you still dont get my point, and my point is the V6 Camaro is not going to be better than the V8 version. Maybe get better gas mileage and be cheaper, but that doesn't make it better. And as for my Camry being a rediculous comparison, the point was that the standards for fast have gone up (not talking handling or anything else). In the market, there are classifications and my guess is the Camaro will be classified as a sports car, in which case it should be faster than a Camry. Fast depends on who you ask, and fast for me isn't a stock Camry. Even if it is fast for a sedan. So a V6 Camaro is not fast if it runs mid 14s.

I actually think everyone gets your point. I don't believe that anyone on this thread is arguing that they think that the V6 will be better than the V8 in any way other than, like you said, being cheaper and getting better mileage (and probably not a ton better). They're just saying that for some people it's enough car.

A stock Camry that runs 14s is fast. That Camry would have beaten pretty much every Camaro or Firebirds tested by the car magazines in the 80s and early 90s.

When Car and Driver did their "Fastest Cars under $25,000 (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/features_classic_cars/the_quickest_cars_of_2007_20_000_to_25_000_feature/2007_toyota_camry_v_6_feature)" the Camry V6 was number 2 after only the Subaru WRX.

Ninth Place (tie): 2007 Pontiac G6 GT 3.9
Ninth Place (tie): 2007 Saturn Aura XR
Eighth Place: 2007 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged
Seventh Place: 2007 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT
Sixth Place: 2007 Volkswagen GTI
Fifth Place: 2007 Saturn Ion Red Line
Fourth Place: 2007 Nissan Altima 3.5SE
Third Place: 2007 Mazdaspeed 3
Second Place: 2007 Toyota Camry V-6
First Place: 2007 Subaru Impreza WRX

They mention in the article that the Camry V6 is as fast as a 350z, which is a dedicated sports car. That's pretty fast. You're lucky to have a car that fast as your daily driver. I've never owned anything near that fast in my whole life.

The Camry accelerates with a 350Z to 60 and maybe even the 1/4mi but not after that. Additionally when the road starts to twist the Camry will have rolled over into the ditch and exploded if it tried to keep pace with the Z. I don't think Z car owners will be too sad about it. Anyone who bought a Z was not cross-shopping it with the Camry V6. And likewise Camaro buyers won't be either. They are looking for a driving experience you don't get in Camry and probably don't put all their stock in one dimension of performance.

The Camry accelerates with a 350Z to 60 and maybe even the 1/4mi but not after that. Additionally when the road starts to twist the Camry will have rolled over into the ditch and exploded if it tried to keep pace with the Z. I don't think Z car owners will be too sad about it. Anyone who bought a Z was not cross-shopping it with the Camry V6. And likewise Camaro buyers won't be either. They are looking for a driving experience you don't get in Camry and probably don't put all their stock in one dimension of performance.

We're only referring to straight line 0-60 and 1/4 mile. He says his Camry is not fast with 0-60 in the high 5s and 14s in the 1/4, so that means a 350Z is not fast in those measurements either. Handling is a whole 'nother dimension.

And I expect that the V6 Camaro will leave the Camry equally ditched, but will end up far behind a V8 Camaro on the same twisties.

We're only referring to straight line 0-60 and 1/4 mile. He says his Camry is not fast with 0-60 in the high 5s and 14s in the 1/4, so that means a 350Z is not fast in those measurements either. Handling is a whole 'nother dimension.

And I expect that the V6 Camaro will leave the Camry equally ditched, but will end up far behind a V8 Camaro on the same twisties.I am quite aware that we are only referring to the acceleration, but my point was that there is more to a performance car than such a one dimensional measure. Not that the Camry isn't fast or not in a straight line. However, the Camry is certainly surprisingly quick but as I was getting at it hardly matters if the Camaro looks better, handles better, is probably a little cheaper, and provides the image that the buyers want. I mostly disagree that the V6 has to be "fast" compared to everything on the road. It would be nice if it was, but you can thank the large car basis for the performance robbing weight.

I am quite aware that we are only referring to the acceleration, but my point was that there is more to a performance car than such a one dimensional measure. Not that the Camry isn't fast or not in a straight line. However, the Camry is certainly surprisingly quick but as I was getting at it hardly matters if the Camaro looks better, handles better, is probably a little cheaper, and provides the image that the buyers want. I mostly disagree that the V6 has to be "fast" compared to everything on the road. It would be nice if it was, but you can thank the large car basis for the performance robbing weight.

Um, I think you're preaching to the choir here. I'm the pro-V6 Camaro guy in this conversation. ;)

I never said that it had to be fast compared to everything else on the road, there will be lots of cars, some probably cheaper, that will be faster. I was just making the point that it's not that the Camaro is slow - it's that the Camry is fast! And you're right, there's more to a performance balance than just straight line speed.

Um, I think you're preaching to the choir here. I'm the pro-V6 Camaro guy in this conversation. ;)

I never said that it had to be fast compared to everything else on the road, there will be lots of cars, some probably cheaper, that will be faster. I was just making the point that it's not that the Camaro is slow - it's that the Camry is fast! And you're right, there's more to a performance balance than just straight line speed.
I am preaching to the choir, I was just trying to make sure it was apparent that I was agreeing. I suppose it would have been easier to just say that.

Ok, so for those of you arguing with me about this, you still dont get my point, and my point is the V6 Camaro is not going to be better than the V8 version.

As far as value versus performance, if the thing comes in under 25 grand and the V8 pushes 30, and the V6 has 50/50 weight distribution and suspension tuning along with it's lighter weight (possibly as much as 200+ pounds under the V8), then you can make a very good argument that the V6 is the better car. Not the quicker car, and not the one that will hold it's value the most over the years (since there will be far more of them in all likelihood) mind you, but a better value.

As pointed out already, it will likely be quicker than most every Camaro save the LS1 and assorted rare high performance 1st gens. Yet, it will get better fuel economy than most every imported "performance" 4 bangers, and is likely to outhandle not just every previous Camaro, but I'd say based on the G8 zeta, has a good shot at topping or being on par with BMW (though not an M series car).

Again, if all this comes in at $25K or less, overall, it's going to be a screaming bargain, and at $5K less over the V8 and considerably more saved $$$ over time in insurance and fuel savings, makes a good (not absolute, but good) case for being the better car overall.


And as for my Camry being a rediculous comparison, the point was that the standards for fast have gone up (not talking handling or anything else). In the market, there are classifications and my guess is the Camaro will be classified as a sports car, in which case it should be faster than a Camry. Fast depends on who you ask, and fast for me isn't a stock Camry. Even if it is fast for a sedan. So a V6 Camaro is not fast if it runs mid 14s.

Cars have gotten quicker as a group, but what's percieved as quick has not changed at all in the buying population. The public goes by seat of the pants acceleration. They also have a fixed point of where they consider something too fast. That hasn't changed much in 10 years. The only point where that envelope is pushed is in the regular car arena. Although GT500 are well quicker than Cobras a decade ago, as are top Corvettes, family sedans are now rountinely as quick as the fastest cars of 15 years ago. 5.0 Mustangs are outrun by Toyota sedans, and Solstice GXPs with 4 cylinders outperform Corvettes of the same period and FWD coupes today aren't too far behind. Meanwhile, affordable performance cars have only picked up a few tenths to half a second. The spread between an LT1 and an LS1 Camaro is just as close as the spread between an LS1 Camaro and an LS2 GTO, and all are within half a second or so spread.

Yes, sedans are quicker. But save for the high rolling performance sedans, the rest of the market hasn't gotten as quick at nearly the same pace.

Oh and I'm not going to go find numbers or make it look like I found number to back up what I'm saying to validate what I stated and try to look smarter, because its an opinion and I dont need to make myself feel smart. lol

So basically, you just said that you made an assertion that everyone has told you is completely wrong, and you aren't going to pull numbers up because you don't need to make yourself feel smart.

You know.... I could never say anything to shoot you down that's as effective as what you just wrote! :lol:

Lets see what you can pick apart and post up something about how your right and I'm wrong because you think you are and validate it with numbers which have nothing to do with my point. lol

Responding to this would be akin to clubbing a caged baby seal, so I think I'll just let this one alone. ;)

Again, if all this comes in at $25K or less, overall, it's going to be a screaming bargain, and at $5K less over the V8 and considerably more saved $$$ over time in insurance and fuel savings, makes a good (not absolute, but good) case for being the better car overall.


IMHO I think DI V6 will be base at 27K. Also Insurance is going to be high on both cars just because of the name Camaro. of course V8 will be slightly higher but I don't think it will be a huge increase of insurance.


I bet that you will see the V8 mpg at 15mpg city.

IMHO I think DI V6 will be base at 27K.

I hope not! It's looking like the only V6 will be the DI, so that would mean that the Camaro base price would be 27k. I'm hoping for closer to 21k or so (and that's assuming that Ford will raise the base price of the Mustang a bit when it gets it's much better 3.5 V6 for 2010).

Also Insurance is going to be high on both cars just because of the name Camaro. of course V8 will be slightly higher but I don't think it will be a huge increase of insurance.

Any Camaro might be higher to insure than a family sedan, but depending on the driver's age and driving record, it could be hundreds of dollars a month difference.

I bet that you will see the V8 mpg at 15mpg city.

That probably pretty close for the auto. That's what the G8 GT is rated at. the Camaro might pick up a little bit extra if it's a little lighter.

Insurance is going to be high on both cars just because of the name Camaro.


:lol::lol::lol: Oh this is funny.

I hope not! It's looking like the only V6 will be the DI, so that would mean that the Camaro base price would be 27k. I'm hoping for closer to 21k or so (and that's assuming that Ford will raise the base price of the Mustang a bit when it gets it's much better 3.5 V6 for 2010).




The V6 DI is a monster engine ~300HP that will compete against the V8 Mustang. The DI V6 engine is the first for GM has a lot of technology into it. Maybe one of the best N/A V6 motors ever built. Thats why I say 27k base. If their come out with a Non - DI engine then I can see 21K. If it is cheaper than that I will be a Happy Camper. ;)

The V6 DI is a monster engine ~300HP that will compete against the V8 Mustang. The DI V6 engine is the first for GM has a lot of technology into it. Maybe one of the best N/A V6 motors ever built. Thats why I say 27k base. If their come out with a Non - DI engine then I can see 21K. If it is cheaper than that I will be a Happy Camper. ;)

I understand what you're saying, but by the time Camaro hits production, the DI 3.6 will be in so many vehicles that I think economies of scale will make it feasible. When it was introduced, the non-DI 3.6 "Hi Feature" V6 was too expensive to use in mainline cars, but now it's the only V6 available in the Malibu and Aura. The 3.6 is becoming "the" GM V6 and I think eventually it will be cheaper to just have the DI (all the Lambdas get it for 2009, too) than maintain two versions.

The V6 DI is a monster engine ~300HP that will compete against the V8 Mustang.
Not after Ford puts the stronger V8 in the car.

The DI V6 engine is the first for GM has a lot of technology into it. Maybe one of the best N/A V6 motors ever built. Thats why I say 27k base. If their come out with a Non - DI engine then I can see 21K. If it is cheaper than that I will be a Happy Camper. ;)

Consider that the only difference between the LY7 (Non-DI 3.6), and LLT(DI 3.6) models of the CTS is the engine themselves, and a 6-speed auto (a $1,250 option on the Corvette). Then consider the price difference is a mere $2,300.

By your logic, you should be a Happy Camper. ;)

If the Camaro gets the DI 6 as a base engine, there will be mods such as ECM tuning, intake, exhaust and exterior mods that can increase fuel economy and improve aerodynamics.

I'd say a 35-40 mpg camaro V6 with 330-345hp would not be out of the question. That'd make this 4 dollar a gallon gas much easier to pay for.

On a side note, hopefully the next prez reverses this aweful trend and gas starts going back down. When bush came into office, gas was thirty something dollars a gallon and he complained about high gas prices...... LOL.

To the person who said the 6 better sound good, go listen to a G35 sport, and tell me it does not sound good.

On a side note, hopefully the next prez reverses this aweful trend and gas starts going back down. When bush came into office, gas was thirty something dollars a gallon and he complained about high gas prices...... LOL.

Just an FYI, the president is not gonna affect gas prices one way or another.

Just an FYI, the president is not gonna affect gas prices one way or another.

I'm not going to get into politics in this thread, but let's just agree that we disagree.

They did do a god job with the V6, I won't deny that. But if the Camaro SS pulls up next to a V6 Camaro, the V6 is still gonna get smoked like a cheap cigar.

I'm not going to get into politics in this thread, but let's just agree that we disagree.

I can do that, but just remember this little correspondence when a new sheriff
is in town.

The argument over the V6 verses V8 is a good debate, but it is just not enough data to determine anything yet. I can say I going to get the V8 now, and change my mind when I go actually test drive it. The most valuable concern for the consumer is pricing. I feel until some official pricing comes out I am going to remain neutral on what is the better value. Everyone has posted some excellent points, such as the resale value, how it will sound, and how would it handle. I know first I said it was V8 or nothing, but imma take a step back and wait so I can make a more intelligent choice.

Originally Posted by Eric77TA:
I never thought at the time I'd be on a message board 16 years later with a bunch of folks lamenting the V6 Camaro only having 300 horsepower!
I spent over 1/2 the '80's driving'em, and I think all of you just looking at "horsepower" numbers, ignoring "torque" and weight etc, are overestimating a V6 5th gen Camaro...that's all.

Will it be faster than the "majority" of past Camaro's?....only if you're including all the 3.8's, 305's, 2.5's, 2.8's, 3.1's and later 3.8's...etc.

That's why I stated "350ci. Z's...I drove'em, modified'em, and will say I've rebuilt my fair share of carburetors, and most "I've seen" were capable of hitting high 14's, if tuned up correctly, good tires and all.(non modified)

I could'nt be happier that the New Camaro V6 will have 300hp or more, but I am also realistic, not expecting it to be the fastest Camaro ever!
Faster than majority, I guess we'll see....
Respectable, ofcourse!

Originally Posted by polo3433:
The argument over the V6 verses V8 is a good debate, but it is just not enough data to determine anything yet. I can say I going to get the V8 now, and change my mind when I go actually test drive it. The most valuable concern for the consumer is pricing. I feel until some official pricing comes out I am going to remain neutral on what is the better value. Everyone has posted some excellent points, such as the resale value, how it will sound, and how would it handle. I know first I said it was V8 or nothing, but imma take a step back and wait so I can make a more intelligent choice.

Excellent Post!...:yes:.....my POV as well.

Will it be faster than the "majority" of past Camaro's?....only if you're including all the 3.8's, 305's, 2.5's, 2.8's, 3.1's and later 3.8's...etc.

I am including those, and making the point that it they add up to the majority of Camaros ever built. Just because they're V6s or small V8s doesn't make them "not count." They say "Camaro" on them, right?

That's why I stated "350ci. Z's...I drove'em, modified'em, and will say I've rebuilt my fair share of carburetors, and most "I've seen" were capable of hitting high 14's, if tuned up correctly, good tires and all.(non modified)

If they were "tuned up" they were modified. I'm talking about off the showroom floor as a consumer would have bought them in the mid 70s/early 80s. Yes, those cars were easy to mod, it didn't take much to get them back to the earlier performance specs, but stock Car and Driver got 0-60 in 8.6 seconds and the 1/4 in 16.3@83 MPH for the 77 Z28, 0-60 in 7.3 and the 1/4 in 16.0@91 MPH for a 78 Z28 and 0-60 in 8.5 and 16.4@86 in an 80 Z28.

With those times stock, it's going to take some finagling to get into the 14s. The incredible torque of these cars (I have a W72 6.6 Trans Am, remember) makes them feel really fast. I think my car feels much faster than the Supercharged Regal GS my dad used to have. But I know by numbers it's not.

I could'nt be happier that the New Camaro V6 will have 300hp or more, but I am also realistic, not expecting it to be the fastest Camaro ever!
Faster than majority, I guess we'll see....
Respectable, ofcourse!

Excellent Post!...:yes:.....my POV as well.

I never said it would be the fastest Camaro ever. But I stand by my previous assertions. I expect it to run comparably to, or a little faster than a DI CTS - 0-60 in 6.3 and the 1/4 in 14.8. That would certainly be plenty fast enough to run with those Z28s above, no?

Originally Posted by Eric77TA:
Uncle, ;) if you want to include all the models that really don't represent what Camaro was, and could be...badge or no.

BTW, here's one quick search, which I'm sure I could find many more, showing "Z28's" well in range for a good driver to hit high 14's.:)
Z28's, not smogged out LT's or Berlinetta's..;)
And I'm sure I can find many showing slower times as well...depending on the drivers, tires, track conditions etc...........
Plus we all know cars like the ZL1's, LT1's etc, were fun to launch back then, driver skill was a tad more important then.;)


http://camarossworld.com/Production%20Numbers/Acceleration.asp

Year Engine 0-60 1/4 Mile Top Speed
1967 Z28 6.7 15.3
1969 ZL1 5.2 13.8
1972 Z28 7.5 15.5
1972 Budget GT 10.5 17.6
1972 Luxury GT 9.8 17.2
1974 Z28 8.1 15.4
1975 350 11.0 17.4
1975 RS 8.5 16.8
1982 350 TBI 9.7 16.0 116
1983 Z28 6.7 15.0
1984 350 7.2 15.2
1984 Berlinetta 9.3 17.0
1985 Berlinetta 10.0 17.0
1985 IROC 7.0 15.2
1987 IROC 6.6 14.9
1987 IROC - L98 6.8 15.3
1988 IROC 7.0 15.5
1990 IROC 6.5 15.0
1992 Z28 6.7 15.2
1993 3.4 9.0 17.0
1993 Z28 5.8 14.4
1994 Z28 5.7 14.2
1995 Z28 5.5 14.1
1996 Z28 5.7 14.1
1996 SS 5.3 13.8
1997 LT4 5.0 13.6
1998 Z28 5.2 13.8
1999 3.8 7.6 16.1
1999 SS 4.9 13.5
2001 Z28 5.5 13.9
2002 SS 5.2 13.5


BTW, they have my 1990 IROC listed at 6.5 0-60 and 15.0 in the 1/4....
and I personally took my "bone stock, paper filtered", stock street tired, L98 (350)IROC to the drag strip and ran an average of 14.40's and a best of 14.29!....tho I bet most mags had them in the 15's ...food for thought.

Originally Posted by Eric77TA:
Uncle, ;) if you want to include all the models that really don't represent what Camaro was, and could be...badge or no.

If it says "Camaro" on the back, it's a Camaro. You can't say "Well, that's not a Camaro, because it doesn't fit my argument." If it was produced by Chevrolet as a Camaro, it represents what Camaro was at some point in its history. They were all great cars for their time.

BTW, here's one quick search, which I'm sure I could find many more, showing "Z28's" well in range for a good driver to hit high 14's.:)

Who said those weren't good drivers? I'd assume those driver's were trying to get the best time possible? I think those times kind of make my point, actually.

Z28's, not smogged out LT's or Berlinetta's..;)

The 2nd gen examples from my previous post were ALL 350 Z28s - not LTs or Berlinettas:

0-60 in 8.6 seconds and the 1/4 in 16.3@83 MPH for the 77 Z28, 0-60 in 7.3 and the 1/4 in 16.0@91 MPH for a 78 Z28 and 0-60 in 8.5 and 16.4@86 in an 80 Z28.

BTW, they have my 1990 IROC listed at 6.5 0-60 and 15.0 in the 1/4....
and I personally took my "bone stock, paper filtered", stock street tired, L98 (350)IROC to the drag strip and ran an average of 14.40's and a best of 14.29!....tho I bet most mags had them in the 15's ...food for thought.

And if you'll remember in my original post - TPI and 350 3rd gens were on my list of cars that I did not think that the 5th Gen. V6 would necessarily be faster than.

The 74-84 (and most 85-92) Camaros simply weren't fast stock by today's standards. Do they have a lot of potential? Yes, they're small block Chevys, after all.

I love old Camaros and Firebirds, more than new ones, so I'm not denigrating the cars of the past in any way, but I think we should HOPE that Camaro performance would improve over 35 years.

LOL at those L98 magazine tests, were they all non-G92 cars or something?! I've seen other tests more in the range of what they actually run, low-mid 14's with a 6.0-6.2 sec 0-60.

The 5th V6 Camaro will be more than a match for most 3rd gens that are remotely stock. Hell the 3.8L 4th Gen was a match for most of them except the L98s.

Does GM sell this DI 3.6 as a crate yet?

Does GM sell this DI 3.6 as a crate yet?

There's someone on a Solstice forum (http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f11/new-v6-solstice-why-dont-they-make-v6-46279/index6.html) saying their dealer told them it's $5,189.

Don't know if that's fact or not...

I'll take a V6 IF:

it comes with 4 wheel disk brakes (likely)
performance suspension uprade (likely)
Alloy wheel package available (likely)
6-speed manual (hopefully)

I'd still prefer the performance/sound/feel of a huge V8 but, I definitely won't be ruling out the v6 with current gas prices.

Not yet Discussed!

One of the big points I'm not seeing in this whole V6 vs. V8 debate concerning gas mileage is the cylinder shut-off technology. If this technology is available on one of the v8's I don't see why a 3800 lb vehicle couldnt get 30 mpg in 6th gear at 65 mph (running on 4 cylinders)? Has there been any recent discussion of this tech hitting the camaro? Or are you all basing these fuel mileage predictions to include fuel/cylinder management systems?

I'll take a V6 IF:

it comes with 4 wheel disk brakes (likely)
performance suspension uprade (likely)
Alloy wheel package available (likely)
6-speed manual (hopefully)

I'd still prefer the performance/sound/feel of a huge V8 but, I definitely won't be ruling out the v6 with current gas prices.

Not yet Discussed!

One of the big points I'm not seeing in this whole V6 vs. V8 debate concerning gas mileage is the cylinder shut-off technology. If this technology is available on one of the v8's I don't see why a 3800 lb vehicle couldnt get 30 mpg in 6th gear at 65 mph (running on 4 cylinders)? Has there been any recent discussion of this tech hitting the camaro? Or are you all basing these fuel mileage predictions to include fuel/cylinder management systems?

i know on honda cars the mileage between a car with cylinder management and one that doesn't is roughly 1-2 mpg. not a big difference.

The Ls3 Camaro's mileage without AFM won't be too bad, my friend has an Ls1 Gto (Which the Gto is more or less the same size/weight as the Camaro is going to be) and he gets like 17 city 25 highway. And sadly enough, that's way better than my V6 Explorer... So an Ls3 (even without AFM) is going to be fairly fuel efficient as V8s go.

Either way, it'll be better than my 9.5 MPG city.

i know on honda cars the mileage between a car with cylinder management and one that doesn't is roughly 1-2 mpg. not a big difference.

I never knew honda had cylinder management on their cars...

And as far as gas mileage goes between the V6 and V8, I really doubt there will be a huge difference. Figure if its a 3mpg difference, its not going to save much money, unless you drive crazy amounts. Even with gas prices what they are at now. Now if the V6 ran on regular... then maybe it would be lookin better, but I doubt it would run on regular.

ok, just looked up G8 numbers... V8: 15/24 V6: 17/25 and about $2K difference between a V6 and V8... if this is what the Camaro numbers are going to be looking like, which is a very good chance, then I'd say V8 all the way, its worth the 2/1 mpg worse and $2K more

Here is all that I was able to find:

2005 Mustang GT 60,792, Mustang V6 99,620

There is an article from December that says this:


http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/10/ford-scaling-back-v8-production-for-mustang/

That was 2005. It's now 2008 and things are different.

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto051620081415480070&page=1

The V8s are outselling the V6s...and that's WITH the increasing gas prices.

Personally, I don't see the point of getting an american muscle car if it's not going to match the show with some go. But to each his own.

Edit: The site seems to be acting funny so I'm going to post the article in it's entirety.

Detroit carmakers flex their muscle cars
By Bernard Simon in Toronto
Friday May 16 2008 13:05

Buyers of Ford (NYSE:F) 's Mustang muscle car have sprung a surprise on the Detroit carmaker with their gas-guzzling model of choice flying in the face of rising petrol prices.

For years, the six-cylinder version of the Mustang outsold its more powerful and thirsty V8 stablemate by two to one.

While the rising fuel price has helped damp overall demand, the mix has tilted sharply in favour of the V8, which now makes up more than half of sales.

Such enthusiasm for the growl, acceleration and status of an eye-catching sports car gives hope to Ford and its two Detroit rivals, General Motors (NYSE:GM) and Chrysler, that demand for their new generation of muscle cars will prove more resilient than the faltering market for gas-guzzling sports utility vehicles and pick-up trucks.

The first Dodge Challenger built in almost three decades rolled off an assembly plant near Toronto last week. GM expects to launch its new Chevrolet Camaro early next year, and Ford is working on a new version of the Mustang, also to be unveiled in 2009.

The top-of-the-line Challenger, with a 6.1 litre engine, can reach 60 miles an hour in 4.9 seconds. But it achieves a modest 13 miles per gallon in city driving and 18mpg on the highway.

All 7,000 Challengers earmarked for production as 2008 models have already been sold. Output of the 2009 model will be significantly higher.

"These cars don't tend to be daily drives," says Fritz Wilke, Mustang's marketing manager. "They tend to be the third car in the garage." He describes them as "an emotional purchase".

Even so, muscle cars have not escaped the slump in the US motor industry. Mustang sales between January and April, totalling 34,500 units, were almost 40 per cent lower than the same period in 2005. Ford sold 135,000 Mustangs last year, compared with 419,000 when the car made its debut in 1964.

The carmakers are not oblivious to the impact of high petrol prices and tightening fuel economy regulations.

GM initially planned only a V8 version of the Camaro when it announced plans two years ago to revive the model, which was discontinued in 2002.

It has subsequently added a six-cylinder version. In contrast to the Mustang, "we expect the V6 to be the majority of sales," says John Fitzpatrick, the Camaro's marketing manager. "Times have changed," he adds.

The new Camaro's fuel consumption has yet to be disclosed. The six-cylinder Challenger R/T achieves 23mpg and the lighter Mustang 26mpg.

Bob Lutz, GM's vice-chairman, recently mused that the carmaker was also considering a four-cylinder Camaro.

GM aims to broaden the Camaro's traditional market of male baby-boomers by targeting younger customers and women.

It elicited about 500,000 responses to an insert into the DVD version of Transformers, a film starring a Camaro. Seven women are among the 15 Camaro enthusiasts invited to a sneak preview at GM's testing grounds outside Detroit this weekend.

Mustang has adopted a "steed for every need" strategy. Part of the price of a "Pink Warrior" Mustang is donated to breast cancer research. A glass-roofed version will appear this summer.

These niche models now make up about a fifth of Mustang sales.

The 2008 "King of the Road" Mustang, delivering 540 horsepower, drew 1,000 orders; another 571 are being built for 2009.

"How much do gas prices come into effect [for these buyers]?" Mr Wilke asks. "Probably not a whole lot." Still, some analysts take the view that, after an initial burst of acceleration, sales may be less muscular than the cars themselves.

Thanks for bringing this thread back to 5th gen Camaro discussion.

I was pretty curious as to why it was moved to 5th gen powertrain although it was a generalized thread on the subject. :shrug:

If the engine acts as good as it does in my CTS then you V6 Camaro buyers have NOTHING to worry about.

If the engine acts as good as it does in my CTS then you V6 Camaro buyers have NOTHING to worry about.

Based on the Edmunds test, it's even better in the Camaro :D

Based on the Edmunds test, it's even better in the Camaro :D

As it SHOULD be since it has been out 2 years. One thing I notice about my engine is the fact that when it is cold it clatters a lot. Once warmed up, it is not really bad at all (you can still hear it a bit), but I think that has to do with the DI. But when I saw Jay Leno start the Camaro V6, it didn't have that sound at all, which is great!

Other than that, the engine has been flawless expect in the first 3000 miles it burnt off a quart of oil. Since then it has been a-ok.

too bad it won't get a 6sd. it would have better performance and better mileage.

The V6 will have a 6 spd and has a final EPA rating on 29 mpg highway and 304hp. A little cold air induction and an exhaust and you should be putting out at least 325hp. Not bad for a little 3.6 V6!

The V6 will have a 6 spd and has a final EPA rating on 29 mpg highway and 304hp. A little cold air induction and an exhaust and you should be putting out at least 325hp. Not bad for a little 3.6 V6!

The post you quoted was about ten months old. We all know the specs now. :)

My bad! I still get better gas mileage in my 01 SS!

My bad! I still get better gas mileage in my 01 SS!

What you actually get is only loosely related to the EPA rating. :)

What you actually get is only loosely related to the EPA rating. :)

Actually the EPA substantially lowered it's expected mileage ratings in 2008. The gas mileage I quote for my SS are actual highway miles per gallon over a 1000 mile trip.