Fbodfather's Milford/5th gen thoughts...

Posting for Fbodfather --
Our Camaro Disciples are at the General Motors Milford Proving Grounds this morning – and I’ll try to give you a ‘taste’ of their first few moments…….

After an evening spent with GM Design and Engineering personnel – over food and drink, everyone retired for the evening -- I think it fair to say that no one wanted to sleep – and could hardly wait for the 8am bus ride thru the hills outside of Milford, Mich. They had the opportunity to talk to people like Tom Peters – from GM Design – Brett Vivian, who is the Camaro Vehicle Line Director….and Al Oppenheiser who is Camaro North American Chief Engineer. Of course, Cheryl Pilcher is there – wearing, of all things, a Houndstooth blazer in Black and white. John Fitzpatrick is there to act as master of ceremonies.

An exciting evening that holds great promise.

The shuttle leaves the hotel – and the skies are clearing – blue with broken white clouds…….temperatures in the high 50s………..

The shuttle makes its way along interstate 96 and exits at the Milford Road exit. A few miles later, it turns onto “General Motors Road” – and the main gate is just ahead.


Upon entering the main gate – a bus transfer takes place at “Lundstrom House” – and the incredible ride starts – past building after building – past a guard that checks packages and people. Funny thing is that no one remembers the buildings – simply because of the staggering number of cars and trucks surrounding the buildings – many with cammo. – and that’s because many of them are from the 2010-2011 model years.

The bus takes our disciples over many hills and valleys – all cris-crossed with various road surfaces. Your first reaction to the Milford Proving Ground is: “Wow – the landscape……” The proving grounds has woods and forest – lakes and streams – dirt lanes – superhighways – rough pavement – and lots of wildflowers. You’d expect lots of macadam – but you’re struck by the beauty of nature.

A Corvette passes the bus going the other way – followed by several Chevrolet Traverses – which are going thru final validation tests prior to production late this summer. Soon we see what appears to be a very low-slung sedan – covered with front and rear bras and lots of cammo paint……. – when suddenly someone shouts “LOOK!!! HERE COMES ONE!” – and behind the bus – like a couple of wild cheetahs – two black and white IVER Camaros come up at a high rate of speed – turn signals come on --- and they howl past the bus – and our disciples gasp.

This is gonna be a GREAT day…………….

The bus pulls up to Building 106 – which overlooks ‘black lake.’ Black lake was given this name by airline pilots who would fly over the Milford grounds – because it’s a rectangle that measures just under 70 acres of asphalt – and this rectangle looks like a lake from 20,000 feet……..

As our disciples exit onto the tarmac, they hear the unmistakable ‘howl’ of tires in the distance. “Oh my GOD – HERE THEY COME AGAIN!!” – and in the distance the cheetahs reappear –

They keep gaining speed – and as they blow by the group, the unmistakable growl of a small-block V8 – and then they’re gone behind a wooded island at the end of black lake…………………..


No question about it – this is gonna be a GREAT day………..




PART 2…………


The Disciples come into building 106 -- located on the ‘shore’ of black lake – there is a large screen set up – and a U-shaped table with refreshments – and a black fabric backwall. Everyone gets a beverage and sits in their assigned seats – a few ‘goodies’ are there for them to take home………

John reviews the agenda – and notes that there are some very special Corvettes outside – such as a
“Cor price” – a 1989 ZR1 (no, that’s not a mistype) an Active handling 1990 ZR1 – the first C5 Hardtop built – and a ‘Beta’ C5. We invite them to come outside and look at them – but we bring them thru the black backwall –

…………..and sitting there are FOUR production intent Camaros – (OK – I’ll share that one was Black and one was Red -- ) -- and capturing the Disciples’ facial expressions on tape is a video crew.

No one says a word – lots of gasps -- and their eyes bug out. – and suddenly there are tears – both from the Disciples and from those of us on the Team. One disciple says to me “oh …..oh……..it’s been such a long wait – they’re --- they’re – they’re – ohmygod………..I love them!”

it’s not unlike a Christmas morning – but much better!

The disciples went from car to car – climbed in and out of them – opened trunks – opened hoods -- and asked a million questions.

It was a chore to get them out of the cars and back to the meeting room so that we could have Brett and Al speak to them about Camaro Development.

It really IS a GREAT day………….

Part 3……….

Time to drive a couple of cars!

The black and white IVER Camaros return to Black Lake – and each Disciple takes them for a drive with one of the Camaro Team members riding shotgun. They have V8 engines and automatic transmissions. The interiors are quite primitive as they’ve been thru tests for several months.

The video team captures reactions from each Disciple. We also have ‘stills’ taken.

Suddenly – a fighter jet swoops down – completely unannounced – and buzzes Black Lake – everyone jumps and gasps – and watches as the jet does a barrel roll – steeply banks – and buzzes us once again. Wouldn’t you know – Maximum Bob! – he comes back once again – gives us a ‘bow’ with his wings - -and takes off on a final barrel roll…………

Incredible. Can this day get any better?

We allow the disciples to drive a V6 with the manual transmission – and I’m sure they’ll have something to say about this -- this may be the real surprise!

One of our durability drivers then takes one of the V8 Black and Whites out onto black lake – and does some high speed maneuvers -- the tires howling the entire time – and after this performance he receives a standing ovation from the crowd.

Time to go back inside and hear some REALLY secret stuff…………..and at the end of the day – a debrief and then dinner.

WOW………what a day.

This secret nonsense is getting tired and aggravating.

Mr. ChrisL sir, you have brought tears to my eyes, just bye reading your descriptions. Sir, it was a pleasure reading your experiences about the Milford Ground and the Camaro's. I hope you can give us an assurance that the Camaro Community will be VERY VERY PLEASED. I Hope you have had a wonderful experience so far. :D

:bow::bow:That is amazing. sounds like it would be the best day ever. Everything about it sounds awesome. I dont think id be able to sleep for weeks.

I actually had a dream a few nights ago where after doing a bunch of stuff my dad and i randomly ended up in a room with a bunch of 5th gens in it. Scott and a couple others were in there but my dad and i werent supposed to me. so they told us to leave but i tried taking a long way around to get up closer and look at the interior but was caught so i had to run. haha good times.

This secret nonsense is getting tired and aggravating.

I know! 4 more months to know and see everything in final form is too long......

This secret nonsense is getting tired and aggravating.

Are you serious? Think of how much we're seeing and hearing about this car, and it's still more than six months before they go on sale. Compare that to any other new car in development.

The simple fact is that there is more public information about this Camaro than there has ever been about any car this early in the development process.

[QUOTE=JakeRobb;5377038]Are you serious? Think of how much we're seeing and hearing about this car, and it's still more than six months before they go on sale. QUOTE]

From what I've heard, they are going to be slower than the new Mustang(in 2011) and a bit more expensive.

And this crap does nothing for me. :(

Well then don't read it:cry:

I guess you heard that from a mudstain dealer

Gang, I cant take credit for the content. Thank Fbodfather. He posted it using my account.

From what I've heard, they are going to be slower than the new Mustang(in 2011) and a bit more expensive.

And this crap does nothing for me. :(

Then don't read it.

This is the THIRD statement I've read from someone wanting full disclosure on everything on the Camaro. Get real guys!

The car will be unveiled in a few months. This car has had more info out on it than any new car ever. We're even getting people chosen from websites to give input. Name any other car that's been done with!

As far as "What you've heard" on the Mustang, please don't fall into the pack of the speculative idiots attempting to fill in what they don't know (which is usually alot) with stuff that has no basis in fact.

We invite them to come outside and look at them – but we bring them thru the black backwall –

…………..and sitting there are FOUR production intent Camaros – (OK – I’ll share that one was Black and one was Red -- ) -- and capturing the Disciples’ facial expressions on tape is a video crew.

No one says a word – lots of gasps -- and their eyes bug out. – and suddenly there are tears – both from the Disciples and from those of us on the Team. One disciple says to me “oh …..oh……..it’s been such a long wait – they’re --- they’re – they’re – ohmygod………..I love them!”

The disciples went from car to car – climbed in and out of them – opened trunks – opened hoods -- and asked a million questions.

It was a chore to get them out of the cars and back to the meeting room so that we could have Brett and Al speak to them about Camaro Development.
Ok, I'm sorry, I'm having a weak moment, I admit, I am very jealous!!! :bow: Actually, that barely describes it! :shame: Considering I know one of the "disciples" personally, I feel an even bigger sense of how "close" and yet "so far" from this experience I am! :cry:

What an awesome, awesome experience I'm sure this is for all of you! I don't think "lucky" even comes close to describing it!

Is it about time we can buy one of these cars already?!?!!? :cry: This is killing me! :(

One more thing, who got to drive the one with the 427 that did 7:45 around the 'Ring?? :p

:bow::bow:
I actually had a dream a few nights ago where after doing a bunch of stuff my dad and i randomly ended up in a room with a bunch of 5th gens in it...


I also had a dream about a 5th gen! Mine involved a black one with red stripes and red interior...(although I really wanted a hugger orange)

This car is turning out to be a "real" dream car! :)

I also had a dream about a 5th gen! Mine involved a black one with red stripes and red interior...(although I really wanted a hugger orange)

This car is turning out to be a "real" dream car! :)

Ive also had 5th gen dreams. In my dream a mule pulls into the shop at my work I get to take it on a test drive.:D

About the only thing I've gotten out of all the "fluff" has been that the V6 will apparently be offered with a manual trans. GM made the wise choice.

From what I've heard, they are going to be slower than the new Mustang(in 2011) and a bit more expensive.

And this crap does nothing for me. :(

Than feel free to wait until 2011 and buy a mustang.:cry:

One more thing, who got to drive the one with the 427 that did 7:45 around the 'Ring?? :p:think::shock: tell me more lol

I also had a dream about a 5th gen! Mine involved a black one with red stripes and red interior...

Hey...what are you doing in my car? :D

About the only thing I've gotten out of all the "fluff" has been that the V6 will apparently be offered with a manual trans. GM made the wise choice.

Actually....reading between the lines, I would be surprised if this doesn't translate into that 300HP DI V-6 that has been rumored.

About the only thing I've gotten out of all the "fluff" has been that the V6 will apparently be offered with a manual trans. GM made the wise choice.

Concur completely.

Manual tranny with the V6 sounds like a very good decision.

It's just a matter of time now before one(or two) is in our driveway now.

It was good to meet the group. I had tons of fun!
I'm glad significant others were allowed, and that I didn't have "tube" duty!
Hopefully I can tag along with Cara again!

From what I've heard, they are going to be slower than the new Mustang(in 2011) and a bit more expensive.

I don't think that prediction has any basis in fact. Official specs and performance numbers aren't available for either car, so how could anyone know?

If Ford pulls the trigger on its 5.0L Boss engine as a base V8 (not likely), GM will surely have something to trump it. Horsepower wars the next 3 years will be interesting.

I just would like to know if the opening in the hood will be functional on any of the models. I wouldn't think that would be something that is top secret.

I dunno, even the colors are secret. :rolleyes: Must be dat dere brand new high-tech dent resistant paint that they can't talk about! :think: Forbid we get some news to keep us interested other than "the V6 will be fun!" when the car is only about 6 months away now and V8 Challengers will be hitting streets all over soon. Not quite sure what the point of these posts are if we can't be told anything.

Not quite sure what the point of these posts are if we can't be told anything.

IMO the fact that 15 enthusiasts left the Summit happy should tell you a lot.

IMO the fact that 15 enthusiasts left the Summit happy should tell you a lot.

exactly...good things come to those who wait.:cool:

From what I've heard, they are going to be slower than the new Mustang(in 2011)

Thats if Ford can deliver on a 400/360 or 400/400 5.0 - even Ford guys are highly skeptical Ford has the ability to produce said engine without a supercharger strapped to it.

I dunno, even the colors are secret. :rolleyes: Must be dat dere brand new high-tech dent resistant paint that they can't talk about! :think: Forbid we get some news to keep us interested other than "the V6 will be fun!" when the car is only about 6 months away now and V8 Challengers will be hitting streets all over soon. Not quite sure what the point of these posts are if we can't be told anything.

This is a very competetive business. It's important to keep specific details secret until vehicle launch. You may think talking paint colors is a trivial detail, but it most certainly is not. We can say we saw Red, Silver, Black and a 4th color we were specifically told not to speak of.

It is what it is. We signed confidentiality agreements. We have alot of respect for the folks at GM who put their asses on the line to make this happen. We have WAY too much respect for them to do anything that would adversley reflect on them.

Actually....reading between the lines, I would be surprised if this doesn't translate into that 300HP DI V-6 that has been rumored.

Ahh...the same one in Cadillac CTS?

To be honest, I was quite happy with the 310 hp in the 4th gen. Yeah, I'd want more hp when I take the car tracking, but that only happens twice a year.

The only thing I'd miss is the V8 rumble, which is a pretty big deal...

IMO the fact that 15 enthusiasts left the Summit happy should tell you a lot.

I think all IZ28 was trying to say is there is no new information presented except there is a super secret color and the V6 is going to be very good ( which a lot of people were already expecting). 15 Camaro nuts came back happy after they had a chance to: meet the team, get a private showing of the progress, and provide feedback on the final development. That doesn't really tell me a whole lot. If they came back unhappy that would say a lot ( namely that the team had drastically changed direction from the concept). Most of this is probably just bitterness that I didn't get to meet the team and get a sneak peak so I'll shut up and wait patiently until you can spill some more beans.

IMO the fact that 15 enthusiasts left the Summit happy should tell you a lot.

Exactly.

The Desciple program wasn't designed to be an avenue of info release about the new Camaro. At least that was never my impression...

It's meant to provide an avenue from the enthusiast community for feedback, impressions, desires, and part of a concerted effort to make the new Camaro the absolute best yet. A conduit for input from, not output to, the community.

The invite is there for the taking to go to Indy and get your own "desciple" experience. If you miss out, you miss a very big deal.;)

The fact the desciple program is even known about is unusual. The fact they can talk about it at all is not to be expected. Don't ask them to tarnish their integrity. It's a part of why they were chosen, no doubt.

Folks have been encouraged to keep the faith, I also suggest having a little patience... Both will be rewarded.

The invite is there for the taking to go to Indy and get your own "desciple" experience. If you miss out, you miss a very big deal.;)



See ya there.... in my newly aquired '83 Crossfire, which is ..ugh...kinda slow.

See ya there.... in my newly aquired '83 Crossfire, which is ..ugh...kinda slow.

Congrats! Tell us about your new stable addition!! I'd bet a 3.42 rear gear swap would go a long way to waking her up.:bow:

The only thing I'd miss is the V8 rumble, which is a pretty big deal...

+1 The v8 rumble is a must for me. My wife's Z has a nice exhaust note, but it's not a v8 and for me that makes a difference.

That said, I LOVE that the v6 is so good!!!

Ok, I'm sorry, I'm having a weak moment, I admit, I am very jealous!!! :bow: Actually, that barely describes it! :shame: Considering I know one of the "disciples" personally, I feel an even bigger sense of how "close" and yet "so far" from this experience I am! :cry:



Definitely wish you could have been there with us, Pete! Knowing your focus and what you like to do with your car, :D I know how pleased you would have been!!;)
Too late for the June issue, but I'll try and find the time to write a report for the OMSC July "Fast Lines".

Best regardSS,

Elie

Most of this is probably just bitterness that I didn't get to meet the team and get a sneak peak ...


Come to Indy in September. You'll get to meet most of us disciples and people on the GM/Camaro Team and have a guaranteed great time.

To be honest, I was quite happy with the 310 hp in the 4th gen. Yeah, I'd want more hp when I take the car tracking, but that only happens twice a year.

The only thing I'd miss is the V8 rumble, which is a pretty big deal...

In '01-02, the LS1 was rated at 310 horsepower and 345 lb-ft of torque.
The LS1 actually made closer to 340hp and 375 lb-ft.

The DI 3.6 is rated at 304hp and 273 lb-ft, and is by all accounts accurately rated.

Not to detract from the DI 3.6's awesomeness, but it is not going to feel like driving an LS1.

See ya there.... in my newly aquired '83 Crossfire, which is ..ugh...kinda slow.

Get those gears out! Any pictures?

Congrats! Tell us about your new stable addition!! I'd bet a 3.42 rear gear swap would go a long way to waking her up.:bow:

After briefly considering taking my '89 IROC, I realized that it is just too mint to take on a trip like that. Plus parking it in a hotel lot for a weekend ( :eek: ), would keep me from sleeping much.

It was time to find another clean, reliable 3rd gen, which I could be less anal about.

I find the Crossfire cars to be interesting from a period engineering perspective. Also, they are the last Camaros to have a true, functional, cold air system. Hey, what the hell, people still build up Flatheads, why can't I have a Crossfire? Anyway, I'm aware of their design compromises, but their biggest performance impediment is that mind-numbingly restrictive stock exhaust.

I found mine on Craigslist on a desolate farm road in Wisconsin. It's a clean, unmolested, original car with 96K miles.I'm the third owner. It's white with blue cloth interior. It has 4 wheel discs, posi and T-Tops.

This is the first automatic car I've had (for myself), in maybe 27 years. It's weird driving a Camaro with no clutch. For the first 50 miles, driving it back from Wisconsin yesterday, my left foot was instinctively searching for that ghost clutch pedal. :D

Their are afew issues I need to address on it. The most serious, I think, are the seatbelts. They seem to not want to retract when you put them on. I know GM had a recall on them back then, so I'll look into it. If I don't feel that they're safe, I'd doubt I'll take two of my kids down to Indy with it. We'll see. If not I'll take my CTS.

Get those gears out! Any pictures?

I'll get some posted. In the meantime, it looks just like BigDark&Fast's car in this thread:
http://camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592448&page=5

Actually, I think the 2.93 gear will pretty nice for the trip to Indy. But I do see a Catco high flow cat and Flowmaster 3" exhaust in it's future. ;)

In '01-02, the LS1 was rated at 310 horsepower and 345 lb-ft of torque.
The LS1 actually made closer to 340hp and 375 lb-ft.

The DI 3.6 is rated at 304hp and 273 lb-ft, and is by all accounts accurately rated.

Not to detract from the DI 3.6's awesomeness, but it is not going to feel like driving an LS1.

You're right, I didn't take torque into consideration, which is even more important in everyday driving than HP.

You're right, I didn't take torque into consideration, which is even more important in everyday driving than HP.

Torque is real power, HP is just math.:p

See ya there.... in my newly aquired '83 Crossfire, which is ..ugh...kinda slow.


83 Crossfire? Was there something before the current Crossfire?

--->edit<---
Crossfire injected GM product I'm guessing (dunno why I didn't think of that).

In '01-02, the LS1 was rated at 310 horsepower and 345 lb-ft of torque.
The LS1 actually made closer to 340hp and 375 lb-ft.

The DI 3.6 is rated at 304hp and 273 lb-ft, and is by all accounts accurately rated.

Not to detract from the DI 3.6's awesomeness, but it is not going to feel like driving an LS1.

With a 100lbs less torque, you got that right and it's not going to sound
like a LS1, BUT that V6 power will be a good starting point and even though I will more than likely be getting the V8, I would not be unhappy with a V6 putting down that amount of power.

I see grim sales figures for Mustang next year...

83 Crossfire? Was there something before the current Crossfire?

--->edit<---
Crossfire injected GM product I'm guessing (dunno why I didn't think of that).

Here's some trivia. GM wanted to call the Crossfire Injection system, "CrossRam". But there were some infringement issues with Mopar and the word "Ram".

Here's some trivia. GM wanted to call the Crossfire Injection system, "CrossRam". But there were some infringement issues with Mopar and the word "Ram".

Noted :D, never did see an actual "CrossRam" car, but I've seen pictures of them, talk about crazy looking intake.

I see grim sales figures for Mustang next year...

Will have to see what Fords doing in 09/10 (there are alot of diehards there too), I know I'm interested if they can get that 400hp 5.0 in there and if the car looks good - kinda scared though, rumors are circulating that they've got a flava-flav sized Mustang in the grille :eek:

The invite is there for the taking to go to Indy and get your own "desciple" experience. If you miss out, you miss a very big deal.;)

The fact the desciple program is even known about is unusual. The fact they can talk about it at all is not to be expected. Don't ask them to tarnish their integrity. It's a part of why they were chosen, no doubt.

I don't mean to say that I think they should break their confidentiality. I don't blame them and i would hope that none of them do. I am thirsty for info though. The fact that a bunch of Camaro nuts got to go and spend a weekend with the Camaro Team and test drive pre production Camaros and came out happy is a big DUH moment.
Come to Indy in September. You'll get to meet most of us disciples and people on the GM/Camaro Team and have a guaranteed great time.
I am trying to figure out how to make this event. I think it will be great. But to suggest it would be equivalent to the weekend you guys just experienced just doesn't cut the mustard.
When I finally take delivery of my Camaro that will be a great experience as well but thats still a year or more out. Hopefully the good things will come because i have no choice but to wait.:D

Soon we see what appears to be a very low-slung sedan – covered with front and rear bras and lots of cammo paint…….

This part is sorta difficult to understand. Was that a sedan, or was it a camaro that looked kinda like a sedan? Volt? RWD Impala? G8?

Can anybody give an estimate of size compared to the Traverse, Camaro or the Vette?

Will have to see what Fords doing in 09/10 (there are alot of diehards there too), I know I'm interested if they can get that 400hp 5.0 in there and if the car looks good - kinda scared though, rumors are circulating that they've got a flava-flav sized Mustang in the grille :eek:

Yeah...was going under the assumption that the 5.0 would be about a year behind. At least that's what I had heard. :shrug:

Crossfire eh Charlie? Dont get caught in the...CROSSFIRE!!
I dunno what to drive out to Indy. The 72 is not nearly ready to go, and the Caprice's gas milage leaves something to be desired.
Maybe I need to find another 305 TPI car....

I'll get some posted. In the meantime, it looks just like BigDark&Fast's car in this thread:
http://camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592448&page=5

Actually, I think the 2.93 gear will pretty nice for the trip to Indy. But I do see a Catco high flow cat and Flowmaster 3" exhaust in it's future. ;)

Niiiiice, that's almost exactly like the car that originally got me into Thirds. I'm a fan of the IROC-Z's, but I still have a place for those early Z28's. (the 91-92's were nice too, but 3rd on my list) You're right about the exhaust, it gots to go. Does it still have the super restrictive 2 mufflers connected by a pipe exhaust, LOL?!

BTW, more trivia: The CFI's inlet manifold is the same thing as the 302 Z/28's for the dual carb setup. It was just adapted to accept the TBI.

is this the lounge or the 5th Gen forum?

Excellent post. cant wait for car.. wish i could go to indy :(

is this the lounge or the 5th Gen forum?


Sorry for helping with the hijack:rolleyes:

is this the lounge or the 5th Gen forum?

Welp, we've got 3 threads going on "hey it was great but we can't tell you about it".

Might as well talk about my CFI for alittle bit. :D

Torque is real power, HP is just math.:p


Yup. You feel that torque in the morning...it's real power alright...:D

BTW, more trivia: The CFI's inlet manifold is the same thing as the 302 Z/28's for the dual carb setup. It was just adapted to accept the TBI.

Not even close....

Runner lengths, orientation, and volume are no where near identical. Plenum volume on the crossram is much greater and the upper plate bolt pattern is different also the thermostat location on a true crossram is on the front of the manifold, not on the top.

Welp, we've got 3 threads going on "hey it was great but we can't tell you about it".

Might as well talk about my CFI for alittle bit. :D

Be nice Charlie, we are friends;)

Here's some trivia. GM wanted to call the Crossfire Injection system, "CrossRam". But there were some infringement issues with Mopar and the word "Ram".

Ironic that a couple decades later Chrysler would introduce a car named "Crossfire".

Welp, we've got 3 threads going on "hey it was great but we can't tell you about it".

Heh, it is a nice diversion from the "you'll just have to wait" stuff.

I am trying to figure out how to make this event. I think it will be great. But to suggest it would be equivalent to the weekend you guys just experienced just doesn't cut the mustard.


http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605696
To be able to come to Indy and see what we saw and talk to the same GM people we've been working with in both of our focus group sessions, I'd consider it to be a close second to actually being there. Same people & cars, different venue.

-Teri

Heh, it is a nice diversion from the "you'll just have to wait" stuff.
It is "you'll just have to wait" stuff
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605696
To be able to come to Indy and see what we saw and talk to the same GM people we've been working with in both of our focus group sessions, I'd consider it to be a close second to actually being there. Same people & cars, different venue.

-Teri
I agree that it will be second but disagree with the close. By the time
the indy event rolls around pretty much all info available about the Camaro will be out or on its way via the regular car rags. Meeting the team will be awesome and the turnout will determine how much face time you get with them. I'm just a big complainer that can't wait for a 5th gen to hit my garage thats all.

Might as well talk about my CFI for alittle bit. :D
Some people come to the 5th Gen forums to read about 5th Gen stuff. We don't come here to read about Missfire Injection!

I agree that it will be second but disagree with the close. By the time
the indy event rolls around pretty much all info available about the Camaro will be out or on its way via the regular car rags. Meeting the team will be awesome and the turnout will determine how much face time you get with them. I'm just a big complainer that can't wait for a 5th gen to hit my garage thats all.


Reading about the car and actually being able to see it personally and touch it and smell the leather are two different things. For me, pictures don't do the car justice. My thoughts and feelings were completely solidified when it was a real thing in front of me. Indy will afford plenty of face time with the GM Dignitaries. They make themselves very accessible at a big event like we expect this to be. The chance to get real answers from GM representatives and compare different models & options will be so much better than getting misinformation from a salesman at a dealership. I'm going to use the trip to Indy as a chance to compare features and learn more about the Camaro (and how I want to option it) before I go to the dealer. It'll be hard to do any comparisons at a dealer until after they've started stocking the car, and we don't know how far out that will be.

Welp, we've got 3 threads going on "hey it was great but we can't tell you about it".

Might as well talk about my CFI for alittle bit. :D

do you strive to be so bitter, or does it come naturally?

This part is sorta difficult to understand. Was that a sedan, or was it a camaro that looked kinda like a sedan? Volt? RWD Impala? G8?

Can anybody give an estimate of size compared to the Traverse, Camaro or the Vette?

Can anybody that was there comment on this at all?

Can anybody that was there comment on this at all?


I think it's obvious what he was describing. :rolleyes: Read it again.

--
Soon we see what appears to be a very low-slung sedan – covered with front and rear bras and lots of cammo paint……. – when suddenly someone shouts “LOOK!!! HERE COMES ONE!” – and behind the bus – like a couple of wild cheetahs – two black and white IVER Camaros come up at a high rate of speed – turn signals come on --- and they howl past the bus – and our disciples gasp.

CFI sucks (though there is some historical significance there)....but a clean 3rd Gen Z28 (or IROC) will turn my head every time.

See at Indy, Charlie.
Bob

PS....I'll challenge you to a race in my B2300 truck. Oughta be close. ;)

I think it's obvious what he was describing. :rolleyes: Read it again.

Hrm.

"Soon we see" implies that the forward movement of the van is what brought the "Sedan" into sight. So it would be ahead of the van.

But then he says, and then specifies, that the two camaros were coming up behind the van.

Not to mention, how someone "Suddenly" shouts, as if with no forewarning, which seeing one just before would be...Especially if the "We" (soon we see) implies that everyone saw the sedan. So why would someone then shout "Look!", after everyone saw it coming, that there was a camaro coming up behind the van?

Plus he calls it a sedan, which is a no-no if it is indeed a Camaro(IMO, I know what it means).

Now, you could very well be correct, but don't state it in such a manner when it can so easily be argued the other way.


PS, and sorry if I missed it or am too stupid to figure it out, what does "IVER" stand for?

do you strive to be so bitter, or does it come naturally?


Although natural talent is a critical component in all things, I do also put alot of energy into striving. ;)

CFI sucks (though there is some historical significance there)....but a clean 3rd Gen Z28 (or IROC) will turn my head every time.

See at Indy, Charlie.
Bob

PS....I'll challenge you to a race in my B2300 truck. Oughta be close. ;)


See ya there Bob.

Yeah, I'll take on that B2300 of yours, but in order to avoid any possible embarrassment to myself, I insist on a very twisty bit of pavement. And maybe a headstart. :D

Erm, that doesn't make any sense.

I just re-read it myself and it is a bit confusing.

I was in the back of the shuttle, so I didn't see much for oncoming cars tooling around the grounds. So, if I read it right the second time, there was a sedan that passed us in the oncoming lane before we saw the two IVER cars behind the shuttle. Since I was in the back, the IVER cars were the only things I was paying attention to. :cool:

PS, and sorry if I missed it or am too stupid to figure it out, what does "IVER" stand for?

Heh...I used to know but forgot myself. Someone will chime in.

Not even close....

Runner lengths, orientation, and volume are no where near identical. Plenum volume on the crossram is much greater and the upper plate bolt pattern is different also the thermostat location on a true crossram is on the front of the manifold, not on the top.

I guess one of the developers of CFI in his own words is incorrect. :think: It was based off of the crossram and then made to work with TBI, so says the engineer in one of my many Camaro books.

Z284, does it still have the original exhaust with the pipe separated mufflers?

Hrm.

"Soon we see" implies that the forward movement of the van is what brought the "Sedan" into sight. So it would be ahead of the van.

But then he says, and then specifies, that the two camaros were coming up behind the van.

Not to mention, how someone "Suddenly" shouts, as if with no forewarning, which seeing one just before would be...Especially if the "We" (soon we see) implies that everyone saw the sedan. So why would someone then shout "Look!", after everyone saw it coming, that there was a camaro coming up behind the van?

Plus he calls it a sedan, which is a no-no if it is indeed a Camaro(IMO, I know what it means).

Now, you could very well be correct, but don't state it in such a manner when it can so easily be argued the other way.


PS, and sorry if I missed it or am too stupid to figure it out, what does "IVER" stand for?

You're reading too much into it. Some saw the cars parked ahead and off to the side, waiting for the busses. Others on the busses saw them when they pulled up behind us, then more saw them as they passed us. Not everyone on the busses saw them both at the same time. Take it as descriptive license to re-create the scene how the cars were stealthily waiting ahead, then after we went by them, they sprang out of the lot they were in to come from behind, then around the side of the busses. Scott was reporting it poetically, as he was recounting the event as soon as we arrived back at the hotel. He didn't pore over every word and proofread for anything that could be construed as hidden messages between the lines. It was in the afterglow of our excitement, so don't take it so literally. ;) It wasn't written to incite any arguments.

(or then again, maybe there was some sedan somewhere that I missed. :shrug:)

In essence, an IVER is a fully representative prototype vehicle. The abbreviation IVER stands for "Integration Vehicle Engineering Release." So the end vehicle is the culmination of the computational and hardware development of all the vehicle subsystems. It's also the only time we will prototype a whole vehicle in the real world.


http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro/insidestory/?id=cid00013

You're reading too much into it. Some saw the cars parked ahead and off to the side, waiting for the busses. Others on the busses saw them when they pulled up behind us, then more saw them as they passed us. Not everyone on the busses saw them both at the same time. Take it as descriptive license to re-create the scene how the cars were stealthily waiting ahead, then after we went by them, they sprang out of the lot they were in to come from behind, then around the side of the busses. Scott was reporting it poetically, as he was recounting the event as soon as we arrived back at the hotel. He didn't pore over every word and proofread for anything that could be construed as hidden messages between the lines. It was in the afterglow of our excitement, so don't take it so literally. ;) It wasn't written to incite any arguments.

(or then again, maybe there was some sedan somewhere that I missed. :shrug:)

The bus also went 540° around a traffic circle, the IVER cars were off to the left as we approached, then visible from different parts of the bus as we went did the 540° then followed us to Black Lake. The IVERs went smoking by us as the road opened onto Black Lake.

Was Scott even on one of the buses or was he already at the building, cleaning the cars as he said he would?

Z284, does it still have the original exhaust with the pipe separated mufflers?

Yup. But it actually feels even more restricted than other CFI's I've driven. I'm thinking that the cat is clogged.

Hrm.

"Soon we see" implies that the forward movement of the van is what brought the "Sedan" into sight. So it would be ahead of the van.

But then he says, and then specifies, that the two camaros were coming up behind the van.

Not to mention, how someone "Suddenly" shouts, as if with no forewarning, which seeing one just before would be...Especially if the "We" (soon we see) implies that everyone saw the sedan. So why would someone then shout "Look!", after everyone saw it coming, that there was a camaro coming up behind the van?

Plus he calls it a sedan, which is a no-no if it is indeed a Camaro(IMO, I know what it means).

Now, you could very well be correct, but don't state it in such a manner when it can so easily be argued the other way.


PS, and sorry if I missed it or am too stupid to figure it out, what does "IVER" stand for?


Not a Camaro -- a beautiful sedan that I think may surprise some people -- and no, it's not a Chevy and no it's not RWD...........

I know most of you were hoping that the Disciples would be able to tell you a whole lot of stuff about the new Camaro.

As you know, they were asked to sign a confidentiality agreement -- and I think that has some of them quite nervous.

I went thru a list of things that I felt was appropriate to talk about - and a list that was definitely verboten.

A couple of them have sent me questions -- about what they can say and what they can't say -- and I've tried to guide them to the best of my ability.

Now -- all that said -- I don't mean to sound disrespectful - -but please understand that this industry is in trouble right now -- go look at sales figures and earnings --and if that doesn't wake someone up - -nothing will. We are adamant about bringing you the best Camaro possible -- but we are not going to show our hand just yet -- there are several months until the cars hit the street -- and we don't want to tip our hand.

Sorry if you can't understand that -- but hopefully you understand that there is a LOT at stake........

If you can't -- well -- sorry!

Now -- to the second part......

Did the Disciples make your thoughts (and theirs) known? YES -- they have been since the first trip to Milford -- we get emails from them with regularity.

Can the input from this session change the car? In some cases, yes -- in others, it would have to happen during lifecycle changes.

Were they excited about the car? Yes. Should they apologize for this or be chastised for their enthusiasm? I don't think so. Did it ever occur to some that the disciples went to Milford expecting compromises -- and found that the car offers far more than expected? Why is it that when someone says good things about the Camaro (or GM) that they're judged as 'cheerleaders?' I have to tell you -- most of the disciples are NOT BASHFUL about telling me (and the team) EXACTLY what they think.

It's almost like some wish that the Disciples would have come away mad about the car. And I guess I don't quite get that.

I think 99.9% of the people on this board want a kickass Camaro. (I'm not so sure everyone does -- ) We understand that. That's why so many details are being pored over -- and over -- and over -- and over...........

Yes - we wish we could build you a 3,200 pound Camaro that has an overall 5-star crash rating -- with 600 horsepower -- 21 million build combinations -- and bring it in at $19,995.

I also wish I were 25 again.

.......and I wish I had more money than Bill Gates.........

The reality is that we are going to bring you a car that surpasses the competition -- in many ways.....and in the final analysis -- it will be judged. All we ask is that you wait until it comes out -- drive one -- and THEN make your judgement.

Yup. But it actually feels even more restricted than other CFI's I've driven. I'm thinking that the cat is clogged.

I don't know, Cease Fire Injection cars are pretty slow. :p

I don't know, Cease Fire Injection cars are pretty slow. :p

Oh, laugh now CLEAN, but I'm gettin' that sucker into the 15's. :metal::burnout::burnout:

I think most like me are just so excited, having waited so long that we all just want to see it and take it in.
Does anyone have a date on when specs will be released? I want an official release and just be able to bench race my perfect camaro. I think I want a green manual trans one oh and a V8!

Now -- to the second part......
*sigh*.

I edited my reply, and shall wait to September to respond.

Gotta run. Have a great day. :)
Bob

Oh, laugh now CLEAN, but I'm gettin' that sucker into the 15's. :metal::burnout::burnout:

That might be quite the task with those gears LOL. Can't believe it still has that original exhaust, what's the mileage?

Now -- to the second part......

Did the Disciples make your thoughts (and theirs) known? YES -- they have been since the first trip to Milford -- we get emails from them with regularity.

Can the input from this session change the car? In some cases, yes -- in others, it would have to happen during lifecycle changes.

Were they excited about the car? Yes. Should they apologize for this or be chastised for their enthusiasm? I don't think so. Did it ever occur to some that the disciples went to Milford expecting compromises -- and found that the car offers far more than expected? Why is it that when someone says good things about the Camaro (or GM) that they're judged as 'cheerleaders?' I have to tell you -- most of the disciples are NOT BASHFUL about telling me (and the team) EXACTLY what they think.

It's almost like some wish that the Disciples would have come away mad about the car. And I guess I don't quite get that....

Allow me Bob -

Not to say that they should have a critical eye but like any product that you are trying to perfect before going to market, it is very difficult to stay objective when you have 'already put the deposit down' in your mind.

If someone thinks they 'got it right', how do they suggest ways to improve a product? From a psychological standpoint, that's pretty difficult to convince me they can since the person has already been sold.

Stakeholders would never say that. They would say "I hope to hell we got it right" because you don't know until the public gets the product.

Speaking of the general public, it is they who will really determine the success of the car and not a bunch of enthusiasts. The 100 (realistically 50) or so on this board who will actually buy the car will not be the one's who decide the cars success.

I submit that GM would have received a more productive focus group if you also included Mustang owners and import owners into the mix as they would have given GM a perspective that was not given this past weekend.

Doug is very correct when he says that the group is made up of a lot of friendly faces. I agree that focus groups should include such people but they should not be comprised of only those people. This one was.

Reading about the car and actually being able to see it personally and touch it and smell the leather are two different things. For me, pictures don't do the car justice. My thoughts and feelings were completely solidified when it was a real thing in front of me. Indy will afford plenty of face time with the GM Dignitaries. They make themselves very accessible at a big event like we expect this to be. The chance to get real answers from GM representatives and compare different models & options will be so much better than getting misinformation from a salesman at a dealership. I'm going to use the trip to Indy as a chance to compare features and learn more about the Camaro (and how I want to option it) before I go to the dealer. It'll be hard to do any comparisons at a dealer until after they've started stocking the car, and we don't know how far out that will be.
I absolutely agree seeing it in person will be great, I loved getting to see the concept coupe and convertibles and they were great experiences. Indy will be a great event and will certainly be exciting and a great chance to figure out how we want our Camaros optioned.

Also I hope no one on the board is getting their information from a dealer. when we went to check out the Tahoes this weekend for my wife (I think we are going to pick up a Blue LT3 in the next month or so) all of the salesmen had 1:18 Camaros in their offices so I mentioned something about it and the first lady told me that they were still almost 2 years a way. The salesman we worked with told me that they just had a meeting about the Camaro and they would be recieving them in September. So who needs to drive all the way to Indy :p

I know most of you were hoping that the Disciples would be able to tell you a whole lot of stuff about the new Camaro.

I personally hoped we could get some new info out of the experience that these ladies and gents had but if gm doesn't want them to spill the beans then I don't want them to( I guess I want GM to want them to, but I want that 20K 600hp Camaro to and the Bill Gates money even more)

Now -- to the second part......

Were they excited about the car? Yes. Should they apologize for this or be chastised for their enthusiasm? I don't think so. Did it ever occur to some that the disciples went to Milford expecting compromises -- and found that the car offers far more than expected? Why is it that when someone says good things about the Camaro (or GM) that they're judged as 'cheerleaders?' I have to tell you -- most of the disciples are NOT BASHFUL about telling me (and the team) EXACTLY what they think.


I didn't mean to criticize anyones enthusiasm I just don't think it says much that they were happy ( if I told you I was happy when i got my lottery check it wouldn't really tell you how much I won would it)

I am excited about the Camaro and as I have stated many times I will be getting one as soon as the model I want is available.:cool:
If I had taken the two cents I threw in this thread and all the interest I've dumped on it I could have doubled my savings for the Camaro.:eek:
I am very happy for the disciples and even though I don't know them personally I am sure that Scott chose wisely. :bow:
I am also excited about the Indy event and hope to attend if I can get the 91 in respectable shape for the 12hr 800mile drive :usa:

edit: I'm also looking foreward to seeing this Pace car paint scheme all the disciples are raving about ;)

I submit that GM would have received a more productive focus group if you also included Mustang owners and import owners into the mix as they would have given GM a perspective that was not given this past weekend.

What you arent realizing is GM DID have several other focus groups - including Mustang owners and import owners. They didnt get the full hands on treatment we did, but make no mistake their input was sought.

GM is perfectly aware the key to Camaro's success is NOT in "Camaro Nation" loving the car. It has to appeal to a much broader audience than just us to be successful.

Maybe he does realize it? Maybe some of us are just a bit brighter than some wish to believe? Perhaps we're just not as easily swayed?

Anyway, I'm hopeful that all my questions (pertaining to Camaro...not those I just posted above) will be answered in September at Indy. I am genuinely looking forward to it.

Bob

Definitely wish you could have been there with us, Pete! Knowing your focus and what you like to do with your car, :D I know how pleased you would have been!!;)
Too late for the June issue, but I'll try and find the time to write a report for the OMSC July "Fast Lines".

Best regardSS,

Elie
Hey Elie!

I'm sure you could still submit something in time for the June issue? ;) Or you could show up to a meeting for a change!!! :p

Now here's a question that I don't think has been asked yet, and this shouldn't compromise any "top-secret" information .....

..... exactly HOW HARD did you push the cars anyways?!?! :D Enough to REALLY get a feel for how it's gonna handle?? :confused: :shrug: How did it FEEL when driving? Did you do any hard launches? Hard stops? How are the brakes? Was at least 1 of the V8 cars a 6-speed so you could really get a feel for the power??

Again, I'm very envious of everyone who got this opportunity, but I'm sure you represented us well :).

See ya out at the track sometime this summer?? (we're at Mosport DDT this weekend! :D)

Pete :cool:

Now -- all that said -- I don't mean to sound disrespectful - -but please understand that this industry is in trouble right now -- go look at sales figures and earnings --and if that doesn't wake someone up - -nothing will. We are adamant about bringing you the best Camaro possible -- but we are not going to show our hand just yet -- there are several months until the cars hit the street -- and we don't want to tip our hand.

Hear hear, Scott!! As I work in the industry, and specifically have been tasked (recently) with doing some market intelligence work I can absolutely say this industry is in HUGE trouble. There's no hyperbole to that statement right now - the barbarians are truly at the gates. And those barbarians are uninformed (such as the legislator that decided to support a CAFE increase because her DIC said her Buick was getting 35mpg), and determined (such as CARB). No discussion is going to turn these folks around - global warming is their standard and we in the industry are the enemy.

However, I don't see this as "sky is falling" time, rather the reverse. The gauntlet has been thrown down and technology and being smarter than the barbarians will win the day. We can succeed, and prosper, but only by being smarter and faster. I'm thrilled to hear that GM possesses no illusions about the situation or the way to prevail. A new and awesome Camaro is important, but the fact that GM wants the car to succeed on so many levels and across so many demographics is energizing. All you guys keep it up!!!

Allow me Bob -

Not to say that they should have a critical eye but like any product that you are trying to perfect before going to market, it is very difficult to stay objective when you have 'already put the deposit down' in your mind.

If someone thinks they 'got it right', how do they suggest ways to improve a product? From a psychological standpoint, that's pretty difficult to convince me they can since the person has already been sold.

Stakeholders would never say that. They would say "I hope to hell we got it right" because you don't know until the public gets the product.

Speaking of the general public, it is they who will really determine the success of the car and not a bunch of enthusiasts. The 100 (realistically 50) or so on this board who will actually buy the car will not be the one's who decide the cars success.

I submit that GM would have received a more productive focus group if you also included Mustang owners and import owners into the mix as they would have given GM a perspective that was not given this past weekend.

Doug is very correct when he says that the group is made up of a lot of friendly faces. I agree that focus groups should include such people but they should not be comprised of only those people. This one was.

I think there are a couple of things that must not be lost sight of:

1) If Someone feels that GM "got it right", that is not the same thing as "getting it perfect". There is always room for improvement.

2) The focus group members are indeed very passionate about this car - and are just as passionate about doing everything possible that could help with its success... so "having already put the deposit down" in one's mind does not necessarily preclude the ability to remain objective. As enthusiasts, we understand the car and its intent - perhaps more acutely than Mustang or import owners could. As a result, we are more closely tuned into the subtleties of the car. After this past weekend, it was obvious to me that there were a few subtle details about the car that we thought could be improved upon. I remain skeptical that non-enthusiasts would have actually noticed these things.

3) I believe GM has held other focus groups for this car (comprised of people who were non-enthusiasts) and gleaned what they could from them. This is a somewhat different tack that GM is taking - i.e. receiving input from its enthusiast community... and from all impressions, the team seems to be very pleased with the contributions made from this group.

Best regardSS,

Elie

What you arent realizing is GM DID have several other focus groups - including Mustang owners and import owners. They didnt get the full hands on treatment we did, but make no mistake their input was sought.

GM is perfectly aware the key to Camaro's success is NOT in "Camaro Nation" loving the car. It has to appeal to a much broader audience than just us to be successful.

This is a really good point. The Camaro Nation is probably both the easiest AND hardest consumer group to attract to this car. Easy because we all share a passion about the Camaro and want one in our driveways ASAP. Hardest because we're going to be the most critical of the car. We're the ones that want it this way or that way. We're the ones that are going to analyze every single thing about this car over, and over, and over. But it also needs to appeal to current Mustang or import owners so that when those leases are up or they're ready to purchase a new car, the 2010 Camaro is one of those cars they're thinking about. To echo what Chris said, one of the keys to the success of this car will be conquest sales.

Hey Elie!

I'm sure you could still submit something in time for the June issue? ;) Or you could show up to a meeting for a change!!! :p

Now here's a question that I don't think has been asked yet, and this shouldn't compromise any "top-secret" information .....

..... exactly HOW HARD did you push the cars anyways?!?! :D Enough to REALLY get a feel for how it's gonna handle?? :confused: :shrug: How did it FEEL when driving? Did you do any hard launches? Hard stops? How are the brakes? Was at least 1 of the V8 cars a 6-speed so you could really get a feel for the power??

Again, I'm very envious of everyone who got this opportunity, but I'm sure you represented us well :).

See ya out at the track sometime this summer?? (we're at Mosport DDT this weekend! :D)

Pete :cool:

Heh, heh... definitely a few hard launches and some opportunities to get a feel for the level of steering response - more so than attempting to generate high G-forces. Cars felt very well-planted around the sweeper-type curves. I kept adding throttle gradually and they just plain hunkered down, demonstrating no body roll and were very confidence-inspiring... aqll at normal highway speeds. Can't say that I hammered the brakes and both V8s were autos.
'Fast Lines' submissions need to be in by the 2nd Monday of the month - too late for June.
Great to hear your car is back together again! Have fun this weekend! I'm out on the Mosport GP track on Friday - can't wait!!

Best regardSS,

Elie

I think there are a couple of things that must not be lost sight of:

1) If Someone feels that GM "got it right", that is not the same thing as "getting it perfect". There is always room for improvement.

2) The focus group members are indeed very passionate about this car - and are just as passionate about doing everything possible that could help with its success... so "having already put the deposit down" in one's mind does not necessarily preclude the ability to remain objective. As enthusiasts, we understand the car and its intent - perhaps more acutely than Mustang or import owners could. As a result, we are more closely tuned into the subtleties of the car. After this past weekend, it was obvious to me that there were a few subtle details about the car that we thought could be improved upon. I remain skeptical that non-enthusiasts would have actually noticed these things.

3) I believe GM has held other focus groups for this car (comprised of people who were non-enthusiasts) and gleaned what they could from them. This is a somewhat different tack that GM is taking - i.e. receiving input from its enthusiast community... and from all impressions, the team seems to be very pleased with the contributions made from this group.

Best regardSS,

Elie

Good points Elie but as Bob pointed out earlier, the focus group sounds absolutely drunk with delight in the podcast and posts. It's easy for someone on the outside looking in to be concerned about the groups objectivity. I would bet that if Chevy but a Camaro badge on an Cobalt, someone from the focus group would say "Hey it's an appropriate Camaro for the times - they got it right".

With respect to the makeup of the disciples, they comprised mainly of 4th genners. Yes, you will all come back and say I used to own this or that and that's fine but it is quite different to speak to the guys who can rhyme off part numbers from everything under the hood with their eyes closed.

1st gen hard core lives on Camaros.net. and Yenko.net. 2nd gen hard core live on nastyz28.com. 3rd gen hard core live on thirdgen.org yet none of those sites were approached for a focus group.

These people are just as enthusiastic as we are when it comes to the Camaro but they would have been able to give a perspective that none here gave.

1st gen hard core lives on Camaros.net. and Yenko.net. 2nd gen hard core live on nastyz28.com. 3rd gen hard core live on thirdgen.org yet none of those sites were approached for a focus group.

These people are just as enthusiastic as we are when it comes to the Camaro but they would have been able to give a perspective that none here gave.
Just LOOKING at the 5th-gen, I don't think they needed any more input from the 1st-gen crowd!! :p :D

(I'm not saying that as a negative, just being facetious ;)).

Just LOOKING at the 5th-gen, I don't think they needed any more input from the 1st-gen crowd!! :p :D

(I'm not saying that as a negative, just being facetious ;)).

Lol! :D

Heh, heh... definitely a few hard launches and some opportunities to get a feel for the level of steering response ... Cars felt very well-planted around the sweeper-type curves. I kept adding throttle gradually and they just plain hunkered down, demonstrating no body roll and were very confidence-inspiring.
That's cool. Did it FEEL heavy?? :shrug:

both V8s were autos.
Hmm, that's too bad :think:. I guess they didn't want to steal some of the appeal from the V6? :confused:

Great to hear your car is back together again! Have fun this weekend! I'm out on the Mosport GP track on Friday - can't wait!!

Best regardSS,

Elie
Yeah, nice to have it up and running again. The Strano suspension feels GREAT so far :yes:. Hey GM! Why couldn't you have installed this level of suspension right from the factory?!?!?! :p

I would like to do this Friday's lapping @ Mosport, but I'll be doing last-minute prep for Saturday & Sunday's events :cool:.

Well, if they were to go to Nasty, I know that some of them would have just peed on the car as they dont seem to be a big fan of it. Most of them are pretty hard core about teh Challenger. Every Camaro thread there seems to turn into a "another GM POS trying to get old people to buy it, they didnt do as good as Mustang or Challenger, it looks like a new Caddy" response.
Dunno about the first gen guys, but they cant be too far off that. As for TGO...you cant ask a question there anyway, you will get banned for 2 weeks. Post a picture along with it and thats a month long ban. :)

I know on my local board for NJ, its a 50/50 split.
My opinion about the 5th gen is that they should probably get input from people that will buy the car, not just people passing by. The Camaro is a stop-traffic design either way, so people will look and drool and probably dont care too much how it drives but that it sounds good, feels good, and isnt too expensive while being good on gas.
The little things need to be tuned in by people that will buy this car. A bunch of people talking about how they would buy the Challenger over Camaro just based on looks without anything else is perfect example of the difference between what Challenger is vs what Camaro is going to be.

I would bet that if Chevy put a Camaro badge on an Cobalt, someone from the focus group would say "Hey it's an appropriate Camaro for the times - they got it right".

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND! I'd have smashed a fire extingusiher repeatedly over it if thats what they showed us.

it is quite different to speak to the guys who can rhyme off part numbers from everything under the hood with their eyes closed.

Lets see... of the group, four currently own 1st gens. Four currently own 2nd gens. Four currently own 3rd gens. Seven own more than one Camaro. One member has 9 Camaros of all generations.

One is a 1st gen judge at the Camaro Nationals at Carlisle, the largest Camaro show in the nation. Remember the Camaro Heritage tour? His 67 Pace Car and 68 convertible were both in it. Cars he personally restored.

Two members own restoration/repair shops - both specializing in Camaro.

I can hear the air coming out of your arguement from here. :)

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND! I'd have smashed a fire extingusiher repeatedly over it if thats what they showed us.


Ahaha...that would have been a funny joke for them to play on you guys. A Cobalt with some minor revisions, and a Camaro badge on the back of it.


Lets see... of the group, four currently own 1st gens. Four currently own 2nd gens. Four currently own 3rd gens. Seven own more than one Camaro. One member has 9 Camaros of all generations.

One is a 1st gen judge at the Camaro Nationals at Carlisle, the largest Camaro show in the nation. Remember the Camaro Heritage tour? His 67 Pace Car and 68 convertible were both in it. Cars he personally restored.

Two members own restoration/repair shops - both specializing in Camaro.

I can hear the air coming out of your arguement from here. :)

Sounds like a Camaro die-hard club there.

Ya know, I realized one thing NONE of us mentioned. They had a 4th car there for us to drive. A C6 Z06. So perhaps that will put things into perspective on the impressoin the 5th gen made on us.

Ahaha...that would have been a funny joke for them to play on you guys. A Cobalt with some minor revisions, and a Camaro badge on the back of it.

Truth be told, the first slide showing us the day's agenda had the following bullet item

Aveo/Impala test drives.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!

...

I can hear the air coming out of your arguement from here. :)
Well then! :lol:

Those people on the "team" you mentioned, is that the GM team, or our 15 "disciples"? :confused:

Of our "disciples", I know that Elie actually takes his car to the track (longer than 1/4 mile, and a lot less straight ;)) so I trust that he has the same "vision" for the Camaro as I do, and many others here, including Charlie.

It certainly seems there's a pretty good cross-section of Camaro influence going into the 5th-gen :cool:.

Good points Elie but as Bob pointed out earlier, the focus group sounds absolutely drunk with delight in the podcast and posts.

Yeah, that is because we liked what we saw. We were genuinely excited. Nothing wrong with that. Again, we are not going to say it sucked when it didn't. We are accepting of the bad, and excited about the good. There is no way someone should think we should do otherwise because at this point, some things are already in motion, like it or not.

It's easy for someone on the outside looking in to be concerned about the groups objectivity. I would bet that if Chevy but a Camaro badge on an Cobalt, someone from the focus group would say "Hey it's an appropriate Camaro for the times - they got it right".

I seriously doubt that. I really do and you are reaching way to far into it. There were moments were we didn't like what we were hearing, and they didn't like what we are saying. Sometimes notes were written, sometimes we got apologies. We have no desire to continually hammer on a smaller portion of what we don't like when right now, there is much more to talk about what we do like. I could come up with a list of a dozen things that I don't like. Some minor, a couple major. Even if I could release exactly what they are, I am not going to be like some and bash it relentlessly because that won't do anything but make me look like a total bitch. It sure won't change anything now. Right now, those are the only two choices that I have, along with everyone else. I'll do what I have done in the past with every previous car I ever had...live with it or change it.

With respect to the makeup of the disciples, they comprised mainly of 4th genners. Yes, you will all come back and say I used to own this or that and that's fine but it is quite different to speak to the guys who can rhyme off part numbers from everything under the hood with their eyes closed.

You might want to do your research on who was there.

Let's not assume any more that was just nodded our heads and smiled. It was anything but that more than folks evidently think.

I think it is cool that everyone wants to make sure we did our job representing. We know what we saw, we liked most of what we saw and that is what we are saying.

BTW, Hylton...I remember specifically investigating some of the things you suggested in the input thread. I did print them off and used some as a checklist.

Well, if they were to go to Nasty, I know that some of them would have just peed on the car as they dont seem to be a big fan of it. Most of them are pretty hard core about teh Challenger. Every Camaro thread there seems to turn into a "another GM POS trying to get old people to buy it, they didnt do as good as Mustang or Challenger, it looks like a new Caddy" response.
Dunno about the first gen guys, but they cant be too far off that. As for TGO...you cant ask a question there anyway, you will get banned for 2 weeks. Post a picture along with it and thats a month long ban. :)


So only 4th genners are legitimate enthusiasts? I am not going to get into one website vs. another except to say that if you peel away the distractions in the websites mentioned, you will find the most die hard Camaro enthusiasts known. Guys with the "one off" cars, guys with the 6 figure cars, guys with more knowledge and documentation about Camaros than anyone else.

Truth is, each gen group has a different mindset and as a result, have different perspectives and opinions which would benefit a focus group.

So only 4th genners are legitimate enthusiasts? I am not going to get into one website vs. another except to say that if you peel away the distractions in the websites mentioned, you will find the most die hard Camaro enthusiasts known. Guys with the "one off" cars, guys with the 6 figure cars, guys with more knowledge and documentation about Camaros than anyone else.

You can say the same about this site, too.

Truth is, each gen group has a different mindset and as a result, have different perspectives and opinions which would benefit a focus group.

Part of the application essay was to list off the Camaros owned. See Chris' overview of who owns what above.

I know afew of you from the focus group, and those that I know are good people. I've had Art at my home. I see Tim around the Chicago area at various F-car events. Elie, I've had breakfast with in BG.

But I have the impression that all 15 have "bought in" to the 5th gen car from it's conception. I have the impression that purchasing a 5th gen is a forgone conclusion for all 15 regardless of it's strengths/shortcomings. I have the impression that this particular 15 people group were very friendly 'critics', really there to lend legitimacy to what the Camaro team has already decided to do.

I don't want to disparage the fine people involved here or this very interesting process, but I'd bet that very few 'hardballs' were thrown. And that perhaps was by design.


I don't mean anything bad by this, it's just the way I see it.

I seriously doubt that. I really do and you are reaching way to far into it.

Maybe not but understand - that's how you sound to us who are concerned.

There were moments were we didn't like what we were hearing, and they didn't like what we are saying. Sometimes notes were written, sometimes we got apologies. We have no desire to continually hammer on a smaller portion of what we don't like when right now, there is much more to talk about what we do like. I could come up with a list of a dozen things that I don't like. Some minor, a couple major.

Well you know what Jason? That's what we want to hear more of. Keep the synopsis to the issue at hand. We don't need the cheerleading. I personally couldn't care less about Lutz flying one of his planes. Did you do what was expected of you from the rest of us is what I want to know and how did you go about achieving that?


You might want to do your research on who was there.

I have Jason and quite frankly, it certainly was not the who's who of the Camaro world.

Everyone had an opportunity to be a part of this focus group.
Absolutely, 100% untrue!

GM sent out memos to many sites to submit a resume of sorts in the form of an essay. They didn't just pick names and sent individual invites. It was an open call. Some people complaining about the selection either had their opportunity or DID submit their essay (and they know who they are) and their stories would be quite different if they were chosen. If people didn't know about the openings, they must not have been THAT hardcore? ;) j/k.

I can't speak for other people but I am truly happy for all of you who went. It is an experience of a lifetime no doubt. Let's not start insinuating that those who are voicing concern over the activities over the past weekend are just sorry they did not get selected. The concern only comes from reaction to how you have all come across.

That might be quite the task with those gears LOL. Can't believe it still has that original exhaust, what's the mileage?

96K.

The gear ratio is exacerbated by the fact that the previous owner put taller 235/60/15 tires on in place of the stock 215/65/15 size.


1fastdog, thanks for the tips, I'll need all the help I can get!

So only 4th genners are legitimate enthusiasts? I am not going to get into one website vs. another except to say that if you peel away the distractions in the websites mentioned, you will find the most die hard Camaro enthusiasts known. Guys with the "one off" cars, guys with the 6 figure cars, guys with more knowledge and documentation about Camaros than anyone else.

Truth is, each gen group has a different mindset and as a result, have different perspectives and opinions which would benefit a focus group.


Not at all. If anything, 4th gen would be the 180* of what this car should be. My point is that owning a certain generation doesnt make a huge difference. I think it comes down more to age and your financial ranking.
GM could have gotten a bunch of guys who drop a trillion dollars on tiher cars from Protouring.com too, but they picked a bunch of people that were pretty open minded and that owned Camaros or are well respected and representitive of the Camaro world.
I dont think GM picked a bunch of softies, but more people that were able to give subjective information rather then have 15 people have a bash fest about everything from ignition cylinder location to texture of headliner.
Who is to say that some of them didnt put up a few questions that put the Camaro team off? The 15 took questions and concerns from here and around the net about Camaro, and Id say that weight, size, power, economy, and price were the majority of questions.

I dont think that GM picked 15 people that were already set to go no matter what it was, the "Cobalt" people if you will. They picked 15 people that understand Camaro from multiple angles as well as the modern day automobile.

So... there were two V8 autos, and one V6 manual, but it's already been mentioned that there were four Camaros (Red, Silver, Black, and a mystery color I believe to be Hugger Orange :D). Nobody ever mentions the fourth car's powertrain setup. Was it a V6 auto? If so, since that is likely going to be the one that sells in the largest numbers, can anyone comment on it?

96K.

The gear ratio is exacerbated by the fact that the previous owner put taller 235/60/15 tires on in place of the stock 215/65/15 size.


1fastdog, thanks for the tips, I'll need all the help I can get!


Charlie, 235/60-15 is about the same overall diameter of the stock size. Its a wider tire for better traction and handling, but maybe a notch bigger then stock.

So only 4th genners are legitimate enthusiasts? I am not going to get into one website vs. another except to say that if you peel away the distractions in the websites mentioned, you will find the most die hard Camaro enthusiasts known. Guys with the "one off" cars, guys with the 6 figure cars, guys with more knowledge and documentation about Camaros than anyone else.

Truth is, each gen group has a different mindset and as a result, have different perspectives and opinions which would benefit a focus group.

You can say the same about this site, too.

I totally agree with you there Jason. I believe you and Chris have done a fantastic job with this site and along with another site (who shall go unmentioned) are THE site for 4th gen enthusiats. I look forward in seeing what you have planned for this site once the 5th gen becomes predominant.

The point was only made because someone discounted the other "gen" sites.

Well you know what Jason? That's what we want to hear more of.

We keep saying it, there is only so many ways we can word it. :)

I personally couldn't care less about Lutz flying one of his planes.

That was just a cool part of the experience. No need to get hung up on it. I don't typically read Oprah's magazine because I am not interested in it. As such, I don't pick it up when at the news stand. I skip to PHR. :)

Did you do what was expected of you from the rest of us is what I want to know and how did you go about achieving that?

I addressed this in part in my above post. I even mentioned your name.

I have Jason and quite frankly, it certainly was not the who's who of the Camaro world.

It wasn't meant to be. It was made up of a cross-section of many levels of criteria.

Let's not start insinuating that those who are voicing concern over the activities over the past weekend are just sorry they did not get selected

Then let's not continue insinuating that those who were there didn't deserve to be! :lol:

I have no desire to add to the broken record and I don't see the need for the group to defend themselves. Again, we like what we saw for the most part and that is what we are saying.

The concern is definitely appreciated and well understood but I don't we are on the same page right now. I am okay with that. When the time comes, I think we'll all come together and move ahead. There will be lots to talk about. In my opinion, lots good and some bad! :thumb:

Oh...and everyone else...let's leave the personal Corvette stuff in its own thread in Lounge Land.

Why is it that when you hear about the Mustang team having focus groups with Mustang enthusiast's it is this fantastic thing and that they really listen to their hard core poeple, and when the Camaro team does it it is stacking the deck? You don't think Mustang enthusuast's came out of the S197 focus group pissing their pants with excitement? Do you think the others on corral, etc. called them "cheerleaders" or otherwise ridiculed them?

This thread (and most of the others about the focus group) have reached a point of being embarassing...


PS - Thanks to the members that have taken the time to attend the focus group and provide what information they can. Also thanks to Scott and the Camaro team for arranging the focus group. It wasn't a program requirement and it's something I consider going above and beyond. It does show that they are dedicated to making a great product.

PS - Thanks to the members that have taken the time to attend the focus group and provide what information they can. Also thanks to Scott and the Camaro team for arranging the focus group. It wasn't a program requirement and it's something I consider going above and beyond. It does show that they are dedicated to making a great product.

That, I think we can all agree on!

Why is it that when you hear about the Mustang team having focus groups with Mustang enthusiast's it is this fantastic thing and that they really listen to their hard core poeple, and when the Camaro team does it it is stacking the deck? You don't think Mustang enthusuast's came out of the S197 focus group pissing their pants with excitement? Do you think the others on corral, etc. called them "cheerleaders" or otherwise ridiculed them?

This thread (and most of the others about the focus group) have reached a point of being embarassing...

Well said.

As I mentioned the concern is definitely warranted, but how it is being presented is sometimes less than constructive. Let's get back to that! :thumb:

Again, I am truly happy for all those that went but I still believe that having other hard core Camaro enthusiasts involved from other Generations could have given GM a dimension they did not get this past weekend.

That is not to imply that anyone who was selected did not deserve to be there. I would never say that.

It wasn't a program requirement and it's something I consider going above and beyond. It does show that they are dedicated to making a great product.

That's where I disagree as I believe that every new product should go through these focus groups. It is a requirement in my books. The key for GM is to make sure that the focus groups consist of the proper mixture, otherwise they'll end up with another Aztec. BTW - Scott did tell me that the Aztec went through one.

Why is it that when you hear about the Mustang team having focus groups with Mustang enthusiast's it is this fantastic thing and that they really listen to their hard core poeple, and when the Camaro team does it it is stacking the deck? You don't think Mustang enthusuast's came out of the S197 focus group pissing their pants with excitement? Do you think the others on corral, etc. called them "cheerleaders" or otherwise ridiculed them?

This thread (and most of the others about the focus group) have reached a point of being embarassing...


PS - Thanks to the members that have taken the time to attend the focus group and provide what information they can. Also thanks to Scott and the Camaro team for arranging the focus group. It wasn't a program requirement and it's something I consider going above and beyond. It does show that they are dedicated to making a great product.


You are right, and 100% on the nose. I think that it stems into something that goes deeper. I have always had this theory that Camaro people of different gens have different attitudes, and act differently depending on the generation you have.
4th gen guys looked down on 3rd gen guys, First gen guys look down to all, and 2nd gen guys fight with eachother.
Mustang guys, no matter if you have 65, 83 or a 2004 Cobra all are Mustang guys. There is a much stronger tie with them there is with Camaro. Lets not forget about the Firebird guys who would never be caught dead in a Camaro!!
Again, this is what I belive. I could be way wrong, but I have yet to see something different. Just look at the websites. How many different Mustang sites are there? How many are just about ONE type of generation Mustang? This could get into a deeper thing, and I dont want to high-jack this thread anymore then it has been done.
Not all Camaro people are tollerent of other generations.

I think that it stems into something that goes deeper. I have always had this theory that Camaro people of different gens have different attitudes, and act differently depending on the generation you have.
4th gen guys looked down on 3rd gen guys, First gen guys look down to all, and 2nd gen guys fight with eachother.
Mustang guys, no matter if you have 65, 83 or a 2004 Cobra all are Mustang guys. There is a much stronger tie with them there is with Camaro. Lets not forget about the Firebird guys who would never be caught dead in a Camaro!!
Again, this is what I belive. I could be way wrong, but I have yet to see something different. Just look at the websites. How many different Mustang sites are there? How many are just about ONE type of generation Mustang? This could get into a deeper thing, and I dont want to high-jack this thread anymore then it has been done.
Not all Camaro people are tollerent of other generations.

Big Al - IMO you are 100% correct. I currently own two of each generation and can tell you from experience that your synopsis regarding Camaro people is true.

Lol! There are even classes within generations! A '69 letter car looks down on any other first gen. (actually you are correct - they look down on everyone) An early 2nd gen guy looks down on a late 2nd gen guy. An L98 IROC guy looks down on all other 3rd gens and yes - LS1 guys look down on the LT1 guys.

It is the difference of these people that I feel GM should attempt to explore.

Yep. I own an 87 Z28 and a 72 RS as well, 2 very different cars with 15 years between them. Huge difference between them and the way people look at each generation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/BigAlZ/Camaro%20Pictures/CIMG0200.jpg

And what about us folks who like ALL the Camaro generations? Do we get a stereotype/stigma? ;)

I certainly know what you're talking about as far as superiority complexes btw. generations of Camaro - but I don't think it's nearly as widespread as you make it out to be. Or maybe I'm just blind to the cold, cruel world...:p

And what about us folks who like ALL the Camaro generations? Do we get a stereotype/stigma? ;)

We have a personality disorder! :D

I think there are some people that look at all generations of Camaro as equal, as I am sure that some Mustang guys look down on other gens. Hell, I made fun of the Mustang II on a Mustang site, and I got flaaamed.
Is it everyone? No. Do I like ALL Gens of Camaro? Nope, but I respect the Camaro of all flavors and colors. I dont knock a V6 guy trying to make his car fast. I dont laugh at someone who modded up a 305 or 307 instead of spending money on an engine like a 350. They have more heart and soul into thier car then the "cut-check" car builds of some cars.

But to bring this back to the subject, It seems that GM picked a good cross section of Camaro fans and owners, from guys and gals that own one gen, several gens, and even a judge of a Camaro competition!
So Bravo to GM for pulling these select few. My only regret is no fault outside of my own for not submitting an essay about my families affair with the Camaro.

Well you know what Jason? That's what we want to hear more of. Keep the synopsis to the issue at hand. We don't need the cheerleading. I personally couldn't care less about Lutz flying one of his planes. Did you do what was expected of you from the rest of us is what I want to know and how did you go about achieving that?

Hylton, you are begging the question.

Folks are chosen to give input to the manufacturer. They go to view the progress and come away positive.

There seems, to me, to be a definate assumption on some folks part that there can be no general happiness relating to the new Camaro, what's been taken into consideration, and built into the final product.

What you and others seem to suggest is that GM decided to devote time, man hours, and lots of money to put together a team of yes men and women who will nod in approval and drink the kool-ade.


I have Jason and quite frankly, it certainly was not the who's who of the Camaro world.

I ask that you pardon my gut reaction here... Scott Settlemire is the absolute champion for the return of the Camaro. He was an integral part of this program, and you simply don't know his integrity and willingness to put himself at dire professional risk for the Camaro not falling off the GM radar and he has the respect in all the hallways of GM for his earnest passion. If he helped choose the group chosen, I have no issue at all with it.

With all due respect, I know where Scott is in the who's who... I don't know you, but I suspect we could be friends.

The success of the Camaro will based on the acceptance of the hardcore community. As it should be.

The overall success of Camaro will based on the reaction and determination by folks that don't know an R.P.O. from their A.S.S..


I can't speak for other people but I am truly happy for all of you who went. It is an experience of a lifetime no doubt. Let's not start insinuating that those who are voicing concern over the activities over the past weekend are just sorry they did not get selected. The concern only comes from reaction to how you have all come across.

The bottom line will be much more apparent at events like Indy, where I know you will be there to settle many of your own concerns.

I hope we can meet at some enthusiast event at some point. I'm convinced you are a real Camaro person. However, regarding this issue, you are begging the question.

I have always had this theory that Camaro people of different gens have different attitudes, and act differently depending on the generation you have.

...

Not all Camaro people are tollerent of other generations.
I don't quite understand WHY that is, but I completely agree with you. SOME (not all, but some) owners certainly can portray a very "elite-ist" attitude about them/their cars :shrug:.

I always thought the idea of the 5th-gen was to embrace ALL the generations of the Camaro into ONE, "almighty", the best-we've-ever-built Camaro. For the most part, I think they got it, although there's certainly a lot more influence from 1 generation than the others ;). But that's a debate all its own! :p

And what about us folks who like ALL the Camaro generations? Do we get a stereotype/stigma? ;)
We have a personality disorder! :D
I'm in that boat too! :D I truly do appreciate and love ALL the generations of F-bodies (Firebirds included!). I mean, as a quick "resume":
- my Dad had '69 SS350 - sold it just before I was born, but he still has pictures, and it was an awesome Hugger Orange '69 SS!! :bow:
- '77 Firebird Formula - had it from when I was 3 - 7 years old - I loved it!
- '78 Z28 - had it when I was ~10 - 11 years old - loved it!
- '81 Z28 - my first Camaro! - had it when I was in highschool (selling it was the worst thing EVER!)
- '73 Camaro - my Dad's current "toy" - also Hugger Orange (nostalgia).
- '02 Z28 - my second, and current Camaro.

SO, as you can see, the only Gen we've never actually owned is a 3rd-gen. But it's not for lack of love/interest! ;)

And my honest opinion of the cars is that, while I love my '02 (4th-gen), the "problem" with BOTH 3rd- & 4th-gens is that they STAYED THE SAME TOO DAMN LONG!! The 1st- & 2nd-gens seemed to have more "character" about them? That, and they changed up styling a little more often.

But there is nothing wrong with loving ALL generations, and I also don't like the inter-generation bickering! :p

That's where I disagree as I believe that every new product should go through these focus groups. It is a requirement in my books. The key for GM is to make sure that the focus groups consist of the proper mixture, otherwise they'll end up with another Aztec. BTW - Scott did tell me that the Aztec went through one.
I'm not saying it wasn't a requirement to go through some sort of focus group, because it was (and Camaro did). I'm saying it wasn't a requirement to go through a focus group with a group of enthusiasts.

I ask that you pardon my gut reaction here... Scott Settlemire is the absolute champion for the return of the Camaro. He was an integral part of this program, and you simply don't know his integrity and willingness to put himself at dire professional risk for the Camaro not falling off the GM radar and he has the respect in all the hallways of GM for his earnest passion. If he helped choose the group chosen, I have no issue at all with it.

With all due respect, I know where Scott is in the who's who... I don't know you, but I suspect we could be friends.

Why are you bringing up Scott's integrity? He is an exceptional champion of the Camaro.

Those people on the "team" you mentioned, is that the GM team, or our 15 "disciples"? .

That was disciples only.

The North American RWD Lead Engineer, Al Oppenheiser, just completed restoring a '68. He did all the work himself. Tom Peters showed up at Milford in his SWEET 69 Copo clone... so they're are plenty of Camaro-holics working on the car.

Tom's Camaro
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/SunsetHawk/Milford/CamaroSummit238.jpg

...I hear what you're saying in that some people may be partial to one generation over another, ...but it's sort of like telling someone they have an ugly child. People love their cars, ...and some are a bit more 'sided', ...they have the 'best' looking kid around so to speak.
As for there being different boards for different gens, ...sure some will focus on one generation than another, ...that's just how it is. Some are interested in the intricate details on the proper restoration of a 1st gen, ...yet others would be bored to tears by it.
Yes, people have different views, ...for example, ...in jest, ...there are '67 owners that 'poke' other 1st gen owners to say, ...'the only real 1st Gen has wing windows', ...or 4th gen owners of SS's vs. Z's. It's simply a matter of taste, ...but to say some "...look down..." on others? ...well, ...as much as that might be true, ...I surely don't look down on anyone, ...our opinions are different, ...that's all.
I'm a pretty hardcore 1st gen fan/owner, spend a lot of time on Team Camaro and CRG for that stuff. To the point to be quite honest, ...I judge at the Nationals. I am also a 4th gen fan/owner, ...there are a number of boards for those too. And I have owned 2nd and 3rd gen cars, ...some I wish I never got rid of (case in point, ...an '87 Iroc 5.7 loaded in black, ...awsome car), but the fact that I don't currently own them surely does not say I look down on those that do.
To each his own so to speak...

...and speaking of the Focus Group, ...I thought they were representing YOU? ...Just because the Focus Group members have preferences on certain things or own certain generations, ...don't think for a second that they did not bring up concerns from those on this board (and others), ....they did. How do I know? ...I was one of them.
...but as I recall Jason mentioning in a post... It's sort of like Christmas, ...you wish for a whole lot of things, ...and get some of them. I will simply add that I truely feel all will get most of them...

Kevin

Kevin,

How many TC and CRG members concerns did you bring up?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND! I'd have smashed a fire extingusiher repeatedly over it if thats what they showed us.

I would have paid money to see that :metal:




Two members own restoration/repair shops - both specializing in Camaro.

can you give info on the repair shop?. i need alot of help on my 3rd gen

Wow, what an interesting thread. No matter how much good that GM and the Fbodyfather do and they try to involve enthusiasts, we just continue to prove that you can never make everyone happy.

I am the most jealous person alive that I wasn't chosen. I feel as though I am know a few of the people involved pretty well and yet, I was passed on for this opportunity.

Thanks to that group for showing us thier enthusiasm and giving us at least some feedback. Even mentioning the plane and the proving grounds themselves and how inspiring they were is a plus. It raises the excitment level.

I can't wait to see the car and Indy and hopefully meet some of the people here at that event. We can all get excited together about that car!

I can't wait to see the car and Indy and hopefully meet some of the people here at that event. We can all get excited together about that car!

I'll be the one wearing the bullet proof vest. ;)

Lets see... of the group, four currently own 1st gens. Four currently own 2nd gens. Four currently own 3rd gens. Seven own more than one Camaro. One member has 9 Camaros of all generations.

One is a 1st gen judge at the Camaro Nationals at Carlisle, the largest Camaro show in the nation. Remember the Camaro Heritage tour? His 67 Pace Car and 68 convertible were both in it. Cars he personally restored.

Two members own restoration/repair shops - both specializing in Camaro.

I can hear the air coming out of your arguement from here. :)

Okay you win! Just curious since you seem to have the stats - how many own 4th gens?

So... there were two V8 autos, and one V6 manual, but it's already been mentioned that there were four Camaros (Red, Silver, Black, and a mystery color I believe to be Hugger Orange :D). Nobody ever mentions the fourth car's powertrain setup. Was it a V6 auto? If so, since that is likely going to be the one that sells in the largest numbers, can anyone comment on it?

HUGGER ORANGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am the most jealous person alive that I wasn't chosen.

I can't wait to see the car and Indy and hopefully meet some of the people here at that event. We can all get excited together about that car!


I................am the most jealous person alive :D:D:D:p.


i hope to be there as well

But I have the impression that all 15 have "bought in" to the 5th gen car from it's conception. I have the impression that purchasing a 5th gen is a forgone conclusion for all 15 regardless of it's strengths/shortcomings. I have the impression that this particular 15 people were very friendly 'critics', really there to lend legitimacy to what the Camaro team has already decided to do.

I don't want to disparage the fine people involved here or this very interesting process, but I'd bet that very few 'hardballs' were thrown. And that perhaps was by design.


I don't mean anything bad by this, it's just the way I see it.

I'm not about to speak for the other 14 but I don't fit this description. If and when I buy a 5th gen it will have to fit a particular niche in our garage and replace at least 1, preferably 2, of the vehicles we have now. Cheryl, Brett and Tom have a very clear understanding of what changes I would like to see. The good thing is, they're content items that can easily be addressed if the buying public demands them.

Cheryl, Brett and Tom have a very clear understanding of what changes I would like to see. The good thing is, they're content items that can easily be addressed if the buying public demands them.

And those changes you would like to see are?

So... there were two V8 autos, and one V6 manual, but it's already been mentioned that there were four Camaros (Red, Silver, Black, and a mystery color I believe to be Hugger Orange :D). Nobody ever mentions the fourth car's powertrain setup. Was it a V6 auto? If so, since that is likely going to be the one that sells in the largest numbers, can anyone comment on it?

Actually there were 6 cars. The two black and white IVER cars that we drove were V8 automatics. Then there were the 4 marketing cars, one of which was the V6 manual that we drove. The other 3, IIRC were all V8 automatics that we crawled all over, but didn't drive.

And those changes you would like to see are?

I don't think I can answer that directly. I'll just say that options list isn't as extensive as for a Trailblazer SS. 99% of buyers from this board won't even notice.

Okay you win! Just curious since you seem to have the stats - how many own 4th gens?

Two dont - Jason, who sold his recently. Janet - who is a dual Corvette owner - C6 Z06 and C6 coupe.

Why are you bringing up Scott's integrity? He is an exceptional champion of the Camaro.

I bring up his intergrity as I believe it to be without question.

Scott was involved with the selection process of the "desciples". I have known Scott for a fair amount of time. Among the thing I know about him is that he doesn't get involved with dog and pony shows, nor does he tolerate less than excellence associated with his name.

My read of your concerns with this pocess is that the choices of the group didn't meet with your approval and thus the reactions from the group were questionable to you. In and of itself, that's fine.

It's my read that you feel the choice of the focus group was geared to choose easily swayed people who were not on a "who's who". I get the impression that had a "who's who" of the Camaro community which would meet your approval would result in a more honest response about the proceedings. That's fine too, up to a point. Where I object is in any situation where the community has bouts of what can easily be seen as attacks on credibility and integrity.

I'm not questioning anyone's integrity... It's my opinion you are. If I'm misreading the gist of your posts about this, I'm certain you will clarify.

Actually there were 6 cars. The two black and white IVER cars that we drove were V8 automatics. Then there were the 4 marketing cars, one of which was the V6 manual that we drove. The other 3, IIRC were all V8 automatics that we crawled all over, but didn't drive.

We keep forgetting about the C6 Z06 that was there to help pass time while we waited turns for the Camaros. :cool:

Scott was involved with the selection process of the "disciples".

actually, Scott wasnt that involved. He gave input to Cheryl and John, but he recused himself when they made the decisions on who was in and out.

We keep forgetting about the C6 Z06 that was there to help pass time while we waited turns for the Camaros. :cool:
If I had've been there, I would have given that neglected Z06 some lovin' ;). I also would have been figuring out a way to do an engine swap into one of the Camaros while noone was looking, then say "Surprise! Look, I built a really cool Camaro!! :D"

;)

Or was the Z06 there to benchmark against???????? :think: :shrug: :confused: :shock: :eek: :bow:

I bring up his intergrity as I believe it to be without question.

Scott was involved with the selection process of the "desciples".

My read of your concerns with this pocess is that the choices of the group didn't meet with your approval and thus the reactions from the group were questionable to you.

It's my read that you feel the choice of the focus group was geared to choose easily swayed people who were not on a "who's who". I get the impression that had a "who's who" of the Camaro community which would meet your approval would result in a more honest response about the proceedings.

I'm not questioning anyone's integrity... It's my opinion you are. If I'm misreading the gist of your posts about this, I'm certain you will clarify.

Chris says that only one 'desciple' was not a 4th genner (I count Jason as one since it is the reason he built this site). You say Scott (Mr. 4thgen) was involved in the selection process. Jason says that everyone from other generation websites had equal opportunity to be selected.

Am I seeing something here?

actually, Scott wasnt that involved. He gave input to Cheryl and John, but he recused himself when they made the decisions on who was in and out.


Thanks for the clarification. WISDOM ON HIS PART. I'm sure he knows that no good deed goes unpunished.

actually, Scott wasnt that involved. He gave input to Cheryl and John, but he recused himself when they made the decisions on who was in and out.

That's involved enough for me. He was influential.

That's involved enough for me. He was influential.

No doubt he had a say. He's the one spending literally hunderds of hours in planes every year meeting and getting to know us over the past 12 years. So why wouldn't Cheryl and John seek his input. Be pretty stupid if they didnt. My understanding was Scott's involement was to help pear the list down from hundreds to a more manageable list. John and Cheryl made the final cuts without Scott in the room. That I know for a fact.

I'm not really sure what point it is you are trying to make. NO PUBLIC WEBSITE was used to solicit applications.

Chris says that only one 'desciple' was not a 4th genner (I count Jason as one since it is the reason he built this site). You say Scott (Mr. 4thgen) was involved in the selection process. Jason says that everyone from other generation websites had equal opportunity to be selected.

Am I seeing something here?

I'm not going to speak for Scott. I'm certain he didn't want to pick one member of the community over another. It's not how he is, upon my refection, and no he wouldn't want to be involved with cutting heads.

I'm glad we both have unquestioned respect for Scott. You clear that up for me and I appreciate it. I think Scott was there for the event. Had he not felt it was all on the up and up, he would not have been there.

Can we agree on that?

No doubt he had a say. He's the one spending literally hunderds of hours in planes every year meeting and getting to know us over the past 12 years. So why wouldn't Cheryl and John seek his input. Be pretty stupid if they didnt. My understanding was Scott's involement was to help pear the list down from hundreds to a more manageable list. John and Cheryl made the final cuts without Scott in the room. That I know for a fact.

If what Jason says is true regarding the fact that everyone had equal opportunity to be part of the group then I find it quite a coincidence that everyone in the focus group has or has had a 4th gen. Not true for any other generation. I have 2 4th gens btw.

I'm not going to speak for Scott. I'm certain he didn't want to pick one member of the community over another. It's not how he is, upon my refection, and no he wouldn't want to be involved with cutting heads.

I'm glad we both have unquestioned respect for Scott. You clear that up for me and I appreciate it. I think Scott was there for the event. Had he not felt it was all on the up and up, he would not have been there.

Can we agree on that?

Funny thing is, a few people here sure do seem to be speaking for Scott. Of course we can agree on that. I wish every GM employee was as enthusiastic as Scott.

I have spoken with him more about GM's internal problems than the Camaro and let me tell you, you would be surprised how much he knows when it comes to things non Camaro.

But at the end of the day, let's be honest here - the Focus group is a bunch of 4th genners.

NO PUBLIC WEBSITE was used to solicit applications.

I do stand corrected, I was confusing it with something else. My apologies to all for getting my wires crossed. Especially you, Hylton, since it seems to mean a lot to you! I see the point you are trying to make. I am sure those who made the final decision had reasons for those decisions. 4th gen, 1st, gen, doesn't matter. They think they made the right choices, you clearly disagree. I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. That horse was dead over a year ago.

I do stand corrected, I was confusing it with something else. My apologies to all for getting my wires crossed. Especially you, Hylton, since it seems to mean a lot to you! I see the point you are trying to make. I am sure those who made the final decision had reasons for those decisions. 4th gen, 1st, gen, doesn't matter. They think they made the right choices, you clearly disagree. I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. That horse was dead over a year ago.

All I ask for is a bit of honesty and to call a spade a spade. I'm moving on now....unless someone eggs me on! ;) SO.... How about them Red Wings?

Okay, guys...in light of that, let's get back to being constructive and move on. :lol:

can you give info on the repair shop?. i need alot of help on my 3rd gen

What kind of help are you looking for? Mechanical or Body?

I have spoken with him more about GM's internal problems than the Camaro and let me tell you, you would be surprised how much he knows when it comes to things non Camaro.



:lol:

:lol:

Nice Vette....

Nice Vette....

Thanks. Look forward to meeting at an enthusiast event sometime:thumb:

4th gen, 1st, gen, doesn't matter. They think they made the right choices, you clearly disagree. I think it is time to agree to disagree and move on. That horse was dead over a year ago.

1st genners would offer a different perspective. There is a reason they did not go out and buy the 4th gen. Last year you all said that all generations were fairly represented in the focus group. The truth only comes out now and to me, that matters.

Thanks. Look forward to meeting at an enthusiast event sometime:thumb:

Like I said, look for the guy with the bullet proof vest! :D

Nice Vette....


BTW, the laughing smiley is because I wouldn't be surprised.

I think you'll like the new car. That's the bottom line.

after reading the milford thread on camaro5 i learned some depressing news


Originally Posted by Blizzard
I think my only real question is do we know if there will be hide-a-way headlights????

Cant wait for some new interior pics of something other then the mule.

Oh and I would place my bet that the other color was Hugger Orange.
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Fbodfather:

We said a longgggg time ago that there would be no hideaway headlights -- (go look at a C6....)

And no, it wasn't Hugger Orange!

that was from fbodfather.i hope he was just trying to throw us off.i really really really really really really really really really really really really really....want one in Hugger Orange.

i really really really really really really really really really really really really really....want one in Hugger Orange.

I wonder if the mystery color was something more controversial or unexpected. That would make sense for gathering the focus group's feedback. Maybe the chosen can hint if this was the case.

I know various shades of blues and purples are popular now and I wouldn't mind seeing one of those.

they also said in the camaro5 thread that there is supposed to be 8 to 10 color choices.I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that only 1 of them is hugger orange :cool:

My guess is the "mystery car" was a Bumblebee/look-a-like :cool:.

We KNOW that one is coming ;).

TELL ME I'M WRONG!!! :D (with a straight face, no fingers crossed behind your back ;)).

You might want to do your research on who was there.
I think it would be great if that information were readily available. A handful of members here have admitted to it, but it'd be cool to know who everyone was. Would it be possible to assign all of the Disciples to a vBulletin member group, so that we can easily identify them when we're reading their posts?

Everyone had an opportunity to be a part of this focus group.
Absolutely, 100% untrue!
I think what Jason meant to say is that everyone had an opportunity to apply to be a part of the group.

The gear ratio is exacerbated by the fact that the previous owner put taller 235/60/15 tires on in place of the stock 215/65/15 size.
That's a 0.4% increase in circumference. ;)

Why is it that when you hear about the Mustang team having focus groups with Mustang enthusiast's it is this fantastic thing and that they really listen to their hard core poeple, and when the Camaro team does it it is stacking the deck? You don't think Mustang enthusuast's came out of the S197 focus group pissing their pants with excitement? Do you think the others on corral, etc. called them "cheerleaders" or otherwise ridiculed them?
Think about Mustang's demographic. They sell over 100,000 of those things every year. What portion of those do you think qualify as "hard core" Mustang enthusiasts, compared to people that just think Mustangs are cool-looking or cool-sounding or whatever?

I suspect that the percentage of Mustang owners that qualify as "hard core" is considerably lower than the same percentage for Camaros. Camaro has consistently been the superior performance platform for nearly the entire lifetime of both nameplates, and that simply draws more "hard core" enthusiasts.

I don't have data to back that up -- it just feels like the case to me. Given that, it would make sense to me that Mustang enthusiasts would want more attention to the hard-core guys' opinions, whereas Camaro enthusiasts would clamber for more opinions from the Average Joe (or Jane!).

Actually there were 6 cars. The two black and white IVER cars that we drove were V8 automatics. Then there were the 4 marketing cars, one of which was the V6 manual that we drove. The other 3, IIRC were all V8 automatics that we crawled all over, but didn't drive.
Awesome. Thanks for filling me in. :)

It will be chrome.

Bob Lutz told me himself.

Chrome with orange stripes.

http://www.isurftoomuch.com/pic/2007/09/chrome_merc_2.jpg
http://www.isurftoomuch.com/pic/2007/09/chrome_merc_4.jpg



This is also what the Series III diecast model will be.




:p

It will be chrome.

:p
:lol: :bow:

Chrome with orange stripes.

Sweet! Can I put my $50,000 deposit down now?

Constructive...

I think GM was quite smart to put together "Focus groups" in general. I assume Ford has done similar things, though I have never seen anything like this on Mustang sites (and I ran the Corral - as the Forums Administrator - from 1997 through 2003). I have seen Ford at various Mustang events (both drag racing and shows) where they came up and asked specific questions on what we'd like to see in future Mustangs. But again - nothing like these sorts of Focus Groups (and again, I think it is a great idea).

How it will turn out in the end....we'll have to wait and see.

I have no opinion on the actual makeup of this or any other Focus groups, nor how they were chosen. In fact, I really have only one comment in regards to them in general: There needs/needed to be at least a few serious critics. If there were - great.

My opinion, of course.

I would suggest that Mustang has AT LEAST as large a group (percentage-wise) of hardcore enthusiasts as Camaro. One only needs to look at the Mustang-specific magazines, or the Mustang-specific racing organizations to get an idea of this. The demographics of this group may be somewhat different (and probably younger...my guess), but there are plenty of very, very hardcore Mustang guys (and not too many of them that I know own/race S197 Mustangs, btw).

I don't care what color Camaro comes in, so long as it is available in black. :)

Bob

PS....Can I have my T-tops, please?

1st genners would offer a different perspective. There is a reason they did not go out and buy the 4th gen. Last year you all said that all generations were fairly represented in the focus group. The truth only comes out now and to me, that matters.


Many people in the group have more than one generation in their garage. Many Camaro people are not pigeonholed into only one generation.
I don't consider myself any more of a 1st gen enthusiast than I do a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th gen enthusiast.

Kevin,

How many TC and CRG members concerns did you bring up?

...not sure of exactly how many, ...and I wasn't the only one raising concerns that I've seen on from some of the 1st gen boards. Other focus group members (some that own 1st gens, and some that didn't) also raised issues they've heard through the various sites.
What I find interesing here, ...and I see Chris posted the photo of Tom Peter's '69, ...is that some of these engineers are first gen owners themselves.
During our first Summit (last year), I was very very fortunate (obviously to be there to begin with) but on top of that, ...'my' '67 pace car (the one I restored and sold back to Chevrolet) was there too. To even add to that, ...I took Tom Peters for a spin. To see him point out and describe cues they wanted to pick up on, ...the general layout and purposeful design of the car, ...there is no doubt in my mind they spent time looking at 1st gen Camaros.
Yet, ... I also know (from what I've seen on many 1st gen boards), a lot of 1st gen guys aren't happy with the over-all design (ie. not retro enough for some). I know a lot want to see to see an RS version, a Z28 that will give the SCCA course a run for it's money, ...and an SS that will stand out from the rest. Vintage colors, ...special interiors, functional induction, superior braking, top notch suspension...and the list goes on. I can't comment on much, ...other than to say ALL of these (and many more) were brought to their attention.
The focus members do realize we are very very fortunate to have been selected, ...and I can't think of anyone who doesn't take it very responsibly. Some have posted to collect concerns, others read the various boards and take notes. We're not there to raise just our concerns, ...we genuinely are there to do the best we can to represent the enthusiasts across all generations.


http://photos.imageevent.com/hvclassics/camarosummit/websize/IMG_1397.jpg

...and I am a 4th gen owner as well. Here's a shot at BG a few years ago...
http://photos.imageevent.com/hvclassics/camaro/mymisc/websize/scan0028.jpg

Two dont - Jason, who sold his recently. Janet - who is a dual Corvette owner - C6 Z06 and C6 coupe.


3 don't! One doesn't even own a Camaro, but what does that matter. To me, the focus group was to give opinions for enthusiasts and more important non enthusiasts and practical every day people. They need to sell a lot of these and any focus group would have to be people that you trust have not only the enthusiast knowledge but also a bigger perspective.

I trust that GM went through a lot of though in who and how they chose people. They made one big mistake though, they didn't pick me.

And yes, I own a fourth gen, I am on that "other board", I am personal friends with most of the disciples and I like to think Scott os my friend, so how in the hell could he leave me out. I meet all the criteria!

No need for a bullit proof vest. If we can't discuss these things then what is the sense of these boards anyway? I'm happy to listen to your opinions even if I don't agree.

Why is it that when you hear about the Mustang team having focus groups with Mustang enthusiast's it is this fantastic thing and that they really listen to their hard core poeple, and when the Camaro team does it it is stacking the deck? You don't think Mustang enthusuast's came out of the S197 focus group pissing their pants with excitement? Do you think the others on corral, etc. called them "cheerleaders" or otherwise ridiculed them?

This thread (and most of the others about the focus group) have reached a point of being embarassing...


PS - Thanks to the members that have taken the time to attend the focus group and provide what information they can. Also thanks to Scott and the Camaro team for arranging the focus group. It wasn't a program requirement and it's something I consider going above and beyond. It does show that they are dedicated to making a great product.

THANK YOU, Ire....

I stopped reading this post at page 8 - at least for now -- because I'm not believing what I'm reading.

WHERE DID SOMEONE GET THE IDEA THAT WE DID NOT DO FOCUS GROUPS WITH MUSTANG (AND OTHER BRAND) OWNERS????? I've talked about this for the past several years on this very site.-- moreover, I've gone out myself and met with competitive owners at other enthusiast events -- because I felt that we needed to do so.

Show me another manufacturer that just did what we did to get Enthusiast input.....(with the Disciples in the past year or so)

Show me one.

Ford didn't because I know some on the Mustang Team and I asked them!

Dodge didn't -- because I know some on that team as well..........

Now...

The "Disciples" were not the 'end all' to this car -- but you can bet we're gonna continue to talk to them -- and we're going to make changes to the car BASED ON THEIR INPUT.......and in fact, we made changes based on the input they've given us over the past year.

That said:...........

It's HUGELY important that we market this car to a different customer.

IF we market this car to the enthusiast community -- we'll sell 50K a year over the lifecycle. If we market it to a wider audience, we'll sell a lot more. I don't know about you, but I'd like to see the Camaro do well -- make money -- and have a 6th and 7th gen -- and beyond.

(Don't believe me? Go to the various sites and see the threads where people talk about advertising ideas -- most of 'em involve lots of burnouts and noise.......which, my friends, is preaching to the choir......)

Now -- we talked to THOUSANDS of owners of other makes in the past two years - and we have it all on video.

We clinic'd this car sixty ways to Sunday -- BUT -- (Silly us...) we had the NERVE -- the VERY NERVE -- to TALK TO OUR ENTHUSIASTS!!!! Stone us at sunup!!!

*yes --rant mode is on -- sue me*

There are some people that are upset that they did not get picked. I understand that. We could only pick so many people -- I let John and Cheryl and James pick the Disciples because I felt that I was too close to the community. I think they did a great job picking people that represent North America -- 8 men, seven women -- all age groups -- all Camaro generations represented -- all income groups -- Firebird and Corvette owners as well......and yes......each of these Enthusiasts are well known in the Camaro enthusiast community -- because they get out there and travel and meet enthusiasts -and they have done this for some time.

Now -- I sincerely apologize for getting the Disciples excited about the car. What WERE WE thinking???!!!??

If it makes a few of you happy, I'll go back to the engineers and tell them to dumb down the car -- how's that? Would that make some of you feel better??

(Yup - I'm on a roll......)

I'm sorry that I'm ranting here -- but the tone of this thread is simply ridiculous --and if I was ANY of the 15 disciples and read what was said about them, I'd be at someone's doorstep tonight -- and I'd be demanding an apology.

To 99% of you on this site -- I sincerely apologize for what I've just typed...please forgive me. To those of you who remain skeptical -- I'm done -- I don't know what else do to -- other than to say that there are a few of us with our VERY LIVELIHOODS and reputations at stake.

Funny thing -- there are some people on here that have NOTHING at stake.

Rant over. I hope to see some of you in Atlanta this weekend at the 12 Annual Camaro/Firebird Gathering. I promise not to talk to any enthusiast -- because I might make them glad we listened.

:p:p:p

And another thing.......

I think a few people owe Jason Debler an apology.

Here's a young man that has spent a huge amount of time and money and effort so that we can meet and talk about the car that -- I think -- we all love -- and the stuff I'm reading in this thread makes it sound like we could have sold him a 1960 Plymouth with "Camero" slapped on the hood. He's travelled all over the place to meet his fellow enthusiasts --

This man feels so strongly about the Camaro - and he's made it very clear to me what his expectations are -- and has never minced words with me when it comes to Camaro -- and yet I get the feeling that some feel he (and many of the other disciples) should not have been chosen.

And another thing.......

I think a few people owe Jason Debler an apology.

Here's a young man that has spent a huge amount of time and money and effort so that we can meet and talk about the car that -- I think -- we all love -- and the stuff I'm reading in this thread makes it sound like we could have sold him a 1960 Plymouth with "Camaro" slapped on the hood. He's travelled all over the place to meet his fellow enthusiasts --

This man feels so strongly about the Camaro - and he's made it very clear to me what his expectations are -- and has never minced words with me when it comes to Camaro -- and yet I get the feeling that some feel he (and many of the other disciples) should not have been chosen.

i give GM MEGA props for the focus group, and im sure the people in the focus group did well to convey what people are looking for in the 5th gen.I get the feeling that Most people feel the same way on things that they like and dislike on it,but you can't make everyone happy.with that being said,i am still jealous of the people that got to go.Do i think i could have done a BETTER job?.i dont think so,BUT im still green with envy.

Now if i could only track down Cytruffle at one of the car meets in Dallas ,and bribe her with flappers and wine..:p


AND for Jason to spend that much time money and energy i give him MAD PROPS.

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel lucky that GM is listening as much as they are. Lucky that they invited the 15 knowledgeable people that they did to the focus group. And I also feel lucky (and privileged) that the disciples asked for our input before going to the focus group. That's just me, but I personally think everyone should feel this way.

I sure don't understand where all of this negativity is coming from, I've been extremely pleased with the communications between Chevy and the enthusiast community. Unfortunately, there are always some that will have negative things to say regardless of the process or results, so far I like what I've heard and I think I'll really like the finished product. I think a special thanks needs to go out to the representatives of the enthusiast community that participated and to Chevy/GM for making the effort and promoting input from the enthusiast community. So, a big thank you to Scott, the 15 disciples, and to Chevy/GM for participating and trying to make the fifth gen. Camaros the best ever!
Clyde

I have no opinion on the actual makeup of this or any other Focus groups, nor how they were chosen. In fact, I really have only one comment in regards to them in general: There needs/needed to be at least a few serious critics. If there were - great.

Bob, I can only offer my own experiences with being a part of the enthusiast community.

I have had the pleasure of interfacing with different camps within the enthusuiast community. I have had the pleasure to be among the crowd and to be the guy making the presentation to the passionate community.

Here's my experience and thought on the subject. Speak to an enthusiast group and they will be polite and reserved for only so long. Really passionate folks will not be silent for long, particularly if encouraged to "tell it like you see it". Once that barrier is crossed there is an opportunity for valuable give and take for all sides of the conversation.

I don't think there is any way in the world for true enthusiasts to communicate without real desires and passions coming out in rather short order. It really doesn't take long for it to be quite candid. That's part of what makes it worthwhile.

Rant over. I hope to see some of you in Atlanta this weekend at the 12 Annual Camaro/Firebird Gathering. I promise not to talk to any enthusiast -- because I might make them glad we listened.

:p:p:p

I'll be there. I wouldn't miss it.

3 don't! One doesn't even own a Camaro, but what does that matter. To me, the focus group was to give opinions for enthusiasts and more important non enthusiasts and practical every day people. They need to sell a lot of these and any focus group would have to be people that you trust have not only the enthusiast knowledge but also a bigger perspective.

I trust that GM went through a lot of though in who and how they chose people. They made one big mistake though, they didn't pick me.

And yes, I own a fourth gen, I am on that "other board", I am personal friends with most of the disciples and I like to think Scott os my friend, so how in the hell could he leave me out. I meet all the criteria!

No need for a bullit proof vest. If we can't discuss these things then what is the sense of these boards anyway? I'm happy to listen to your opinions even if I don't agree.


Nice post...very nice post!:bow:

To 99% of you on this site -- I sincerely apologize for what I've just typed...please forgive me...

Apologize? Personally I think you should take a bow. I don't think you've done or said anything that would require forgiveness. Standing up for your acquaintances, your friends, your coworkers, and yourself when beeing persecuted without any merit or evidence of impropriety is nothing to apologize for.

Even if someone were to post the full disclosure of all the details about the upcoming Camaro we would still have cryers.

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time...









...unless all new 5th gens come with a bottle of champagne and a $1000/hr hooker (chipendale for the ladies). :p

Apologize? Personally I think you should take a bow. I don't think you've done or said anything that would require forgiveness. Standing up for your acquaintances, your friends, your coworkers, and yourself when beeing persecuted without any merit or evidence of impropriety is nothing to apologize for.

I don't think there is any way in the world for true enthusiasts to communicate without real desires and passions coming out in rather short order. It really doesn't take long for it to be quite candid. That's part of what makes it worthwhile.

...some excellent statements.

'my' '67 pace car (the one I restored and sold back to Chevrolet) was there too.
That's an awesome car. The posts with Tom peters COPO clone, your 67 pace car and the second and third gen together are probably some of the best posts on this thread.
I hope to see some of you in Atlanta this weekend at the 12 Annual Camaro/Firebird Gathering. I promise not to talk to any enthusiast -- because I might make them glad we listened.

I wish I was going to make it to that this year its always a great event. My parents even invited me to come visit this weekend. Too bad its on the same weekend I have a triathlon here in Louisiana and my friends welcome back party( from Afghanastan). I'd particularly like to go to the GMMG open house to see what they're working on with no Camaro's or Firebirds right now( I guess they are just concentrating on the chambered exhaust?)