FOCUS GROUP 2008 - End of day 2

We just got back in after a rather exhausting day. It is certainly one of the most memorable days we will ever have.

I don't have the time (or the permission in most cases) right now to get into great details, but here is something I will tell you...

If you don't put your expectations above what is reasonable, yet expect it to be the best performaing Camaro ever, you will definitely not be let down. This car is going to live up to the hype, IMO. The wait that we have all endured wasn't for nothing, it is partly because it has to be right and no one wants to push the car out until it is. So far, I believe it will be and then some. No one is dragging their feet and no one is expecting this car to do well based on heritage alone. If you like the concept and can manage to look beyond the test mule's cobbled up and rough status to imagine where things are heading, you will be more than pleased.

One final thought, there is absolutely no need to even begin to compare the next Camaro with any previous generation. There are simply no similarities except for that name on the side and what the car means to everyone.

I am beat, I need to relax a bit before I go have a tall drink and get ready for the dinner tonight.

Nice summary, Jason.

The car absolutely nails the pony car formula. The passion displayed by everyone on the Camaro team and the extent to which they are sweating the details inspires a lot of confidence.

Bob Lutz doing multiple low level flyovers added an element we weren't expecting. :cool:

Just an unbelievable day with a whole bunch of passionate people and a few pretty awesome cars! (and a fighter jet!)
Really not much more that I could add at this point, other than to echo "It's all lookin' pretty damn good from here!"
... and GM's gonna sell a just a ton of V6 cars - that car is a real eye-opener!!:D:D

Best regardSS,

Elie

Just an unbelievable day with a whole bunch of passionate people and a few pretty awesome cars! (and a fighter jet!)
Really not much more that I could add at this point, other than to echo "It's all lookin' pretty damn good from here!"
... and GM's gonna sell a just a ton of V6 cars - that car is a real eye-opener!!:D:D

Best regardSS,

Elie
HEHEHEHEHE;)

And Bob did a flyby in one of his toys? Out F#$%ing standing!!:bow::bow::usa::cz28:

What aircraft did he fly over with? I'm something of a warbird buff. :)

What aircraft did he fly over with? I'm something of a warbird buff. :)

He has Czech L-39 Albatros trainer.

I know Bob owns several cool aircraft....does anybody know what else he owns? I think Bob hung the moon, and love warbirds also, so this is a hell of a combo for me....

Dang, how do I get to go there??? I live real close too, which makes it harder for met to sit here and realize that all that cool stuff is going on so close yet so far away....

We saw them. 4 of them. awesome. I couldnt speak when I got around the black screen they put up for about a minute. I was literally speechless.

gang, GM is dialing this puppy in right.

We were emphatically told we can not speak of any specifics. All we can say is there were 4 cars. Three of the colors were Silver, Black, and Red. We cant say what the 4th was.

We got to drive two of the IVER cars (black and white) that we've been seeing spy pics of now for a while. They were both V8 autos.

As far as the flybys... the man deserves the title of Maximum Bob. 74 years old in a jet doing barrel rolls. It was surreal. And there was no mistake it was Mr Lutz. Scott exchanged emails with him this evening.

We were specifically told we can not speak of any specifics. All we can say is there were 4 cars. Three of the colors were Silver, Black, and Red. We cant say what the 4th was.

This is b.s. ... just spill it already.

Does it handle - for real?

And are they going to have a package with > 500?

:confused:

That was so vague, it wasn't worth posting!

This is b.s. ... just spill it already.

Does it handle - for real?

And are they going to have a package with > 500?

:confused:

No, it isn't BS. They were instructed on what not to say, so don't ask.

As for handling, the car was/is being tuned on the Nurbring. What more do you need to be told?

Keep up the excellent briefings Jason, Elie, & Chris! :bow:

What aircraft did he fly over with? I'm something of a warbird buff. :)


Hey Bob, try this link:
http://www.airportjournals.com/Display.cfm?varID=0505007

Jason, are you getting the opportunity to sit down with them and talk about members concerns?

Jason, are you getting the opportunity to sit down with them and talk about members concerns?
Of course they are!! That's the whole point!

Did you not read/contribute to the thread letting us know that they were going back for another focus group session, and to give them key points to discuss? :shrug:

I have to give GM credit ..... they're putting A LOT of effort into drawing feedback from REAL people for this Camaro. I don't believe this kind of thought, attention, care, consideration or effort goes into every car that's built. Heck, do they even go to these lengths for the Corvette?! :confused: I almost doubt it :think:.

Hey Bob, try this link:
http://www.airportjournals.com/Display.cfm?varID=0505007


That's impressive.

Of course they are!! That's the whole point!

Did you not read/contribute to the thread letting us know that they were going back for another focus group session, and to give them key points to discuss? :shrug:



Don't be an ass - I didn't read in any of the posts about this weekends activities anything about them actually sitting down and discussing our concerns.

Was the fourth one a Hugger Orange with black stripes, 1LE option, and my name on the headrest? :-)

Thanks for sharing the experience guys, even the with lack of details (it's absolutely expected). Just knowing so much enthusiasm is given into this project is amazing. When this Camaro comes out it's going to feel like we've really had some inputs in it.

Hey Bob, try this link:
http://www.airportjournals.com/Display.cfm?varID=0505007

Ah. Cool. Tks. :)

Bob

I'm very interested in what the disciples have to say about the V6.

Three of the colors were Silver, Black, and Red. We cant say what the 4th was.

As far as the flybys... the man deserves the title of Maximum Bob. 74 years old in a jet doing barrel rolls. It was surreal. And there was no mistake it was Mr Lutz. Scott exchanged emails with him this evening.

We have seen pictures of a yellow Camaro. There was also talk by a GM employee @ camaro5 that they have a yellow one on display, so chances are........

Mr. Lutz = He is da man !!!

Don't be an ass - I didn't read in any of the posts about this weekends activities anything about them actually sitting down and discussing our concerns.
I wasn't being an ass ... sorry you took it wrong? :shrug:

If they DON'T take the time to sit and discuss some of the concerns with the Camaro team, then I don't understand what the point of asking for our ideas/opinions/thoughts/concerns (specifically to bring to the Focus Group) was in the first place?! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, we are SO vocal around here, I don't expect EVERY single point to get mentioned, but for the most part, it seems there are common "issues" that many/most of us agree on, so hopefully the big items get discussed and taken into serious consideration by the Camaro (GM) team? :cool:

I wasn't being an ass ... sorry you took it wrong? :shrug:

If they DON'T take the time to sit and discuss some of the concerns with the Camaro team, then I don't understand what the point of asking for our ideas/opinions/thoughts/concerns (specifically to bring to the Focus Group) was in the first place?! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, we are SO vocal around here, I don't expect EVERY single point to get mentioned, but for the most part, it seems there are common "issues" that many/most of us agree on, so hopefully the big items get discussed and taken into serious consideration by the Camaro (GM) team? :cool:

I think the idea to gather members concerns came from Jason, not GM. It was a thoughtful gesture on his part to include us in the activity to some degree but I am not sure GM gave him the opportunity to convey our ideas.

This is b.s. ... just spill it already.

We'd love to, but we are under a very strict non-disclosure agreement. We don't want to lose our chance to go back and help out more.

Does it handle - for real?

Yeah, for real.

And are they going to have a package with > 500?

We don't have an answer for that one. I do know that even if they don't right away, they are looking far ahead with development. They made sure they covered that. This isn't a painting that is done once and for all and that's it. The refinement is going a long way beyond what will be arrive in the showrooms next spring.

That was so vague, it wasn't worth posting!

As I said in the first post, I didn't have the time (or the permission in most cases) to get into great details. I will have more time in the next couple of days to cover what I can. However, there is more information in the first post than you might have took the time to notice.

Jason, are you getting the opportunity to sit down with them and talk about members concerns?

The funny thing...we didn't have to NEAR as much as last year's focus group. You will probably see this re-posted in a larger synopsis, but I took the most relevant comments from this year (the big "provide your input" thread) and condensed them down to the ones that could actually be used. Interestingly enough, they had many of the topics already put into production or addressed them before they could be presented this time. This could be because a lot of the comments you guys posted this year echoed last year's. That shows you right there that they listened and took what people said seriously.

Think of it like a huge Christmas list. You don't always get what you write down on your list, but you do get some things that still make you happy and what you don't get has a reason behind why.

What we will get made all of us very happy.

I'm very interested in what the disciples have to say about the V6.

Heh...glad you mentioned...

(again, you may see something like this later in a larger entry.)

Yeah, you all know the drill, can't give specific details...but...

What we can ALL say about that V6...

It won't sacrifice performance for economy, and it will surprise the hell out of you. In fact, of all things that we saw yesterday, it was the V6 Camaro that left just as much of an impression as anything else.

Unfortunate that we didn't have a week to spend with our Disciples -- because we get a lot of great feedback.

A couple of things:

>You can be assured that the disciples are not 'bashful' about making their - and YOUR - thoughts known. There was one issue that became somewhat heated -- heated may not be the word -- but the disciples...several of them....made it clear as to what their -- and YOUR expectations are.

>a lot of what you've asked for was either already incorporated into the car (remember -- a lot of the ones working on the car are Camaro enthusiasts ...) or changes were made based on our previous conversations with them (and you in various different forms - club meets -- emails -- sites such as these...)

>If it were possible to steal the show -- I think the V6 manual did that -- that was the third car everyone drove -- and I have to say it's one sweet ride and a lot of fun to drive and the performance will surprise many.

>Maximum Bob doing the flyover was a great addition. (he's apt to do that whenever he's anywhere near Milford...)

I am humbled to be able to sit and talk with a group of 15 enthusiasts from around the United States and Canada - and have both a great time and learn a lot.......I wish we could do this more often with several groups of disciples -- perhaps one day................


Thank YOU -- all of you -- for "keeping the faith" --- I think 99% of you are gonna love this car.

I should also say that this meeting was more along the lines of "lifecycle" stuff (a little bit) and a lot about how we go to market with this car......

More about that later..........

Thanks for posting some comments, Scott.

This Camaro has had alot of input from enthusiasts. To be honest, as someone who came here after being a rabid Mustang enthusiast, the input and feedback GM has solicited and listened to regarding Camaro is quite on par with, and maybe even more than what Ford did regarding the last Mustang. Most certainly more than the SN95 version.

The new Camaro has been developed under the most transparent new car development program I think has ever existed. This program has been even far easier to track and developed more openly than the Pontiac Solstice, which was the previous champ. There's the occasional whiny guy that comes in demanding full disclosure or has some demented view that as a "potential" customer, GM should tell him everything he wants to know. Some folks know no better. Camaro is as exposed as any vehicle program can get without doing the competitions work for them.

Finally, the future of the Camaro (at the risk of heresy) IS in the V6 model. Many here with opinions without the assistance of sales figures often mistake V6 sports cars as "girls cars". Truth is, more men brought V6 Mustangs in 2002 than GM sold Camaros that year.... yes, I'm talking the entire 30K+ Camaros sold that year (despite F-bodies having a longer production year than Mustang did in 2002). Today, we have the added encouragement of $4 and $5 per gallon gas. Having a V6 model as a second thought, or developing a V6 with the mistaken mentality of appealing to secretaries is a sure path to failure.

The new Camaro isn't going to make everyone happy... and it shouldn't. But the new Camaro should pull in enough new customers who wouldn't have been caught dead in the last version, enough single people who were ready to buy a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan sedan as well as other coupes, to expand Camaro's sales volume to be competitive and have broad appeal.

I think this Camaro is right on the money. :thumb:

looking forward to hearing more about the activites =) ....now about that V6, I'm having Grand National flash-backs. ;)

Once I get home I'm going to try to pull together my synopsis of the weekend. 20 hours of driving home gives me a lot of time to reflect on what we saw, heard and discussed.

I had the privilege of sitting beside Tom Peters during supper on Saturday. One of the interesting comments he made was that the debate within GM on topics like SS vs. Z28 & Z28 vs. Z/28 was just as passion filled as the discussions that take place here. :cool:

Can you guys drop any hints about the "base" V8 cars? I mean everyone assumes it'll be a LS3 based setup. Can you confirm if it is indeed over 6.0l, at least 400hp, etc? Anything at all other than "you'll be happy"??

The V6 sounds exciting as well. This sure is excruciating what w/ the no details... LOL, I want to know what was exciting about it.

I had the privilege of sitting beside Tom Peters during supper on Saturday. One of the interesting comments he made was that the debate within GM on topics like SS vs. Z28 & Z28 vs. Z/28 was just as passion filled as the discussions that take place here. :cool:

I'd definetly like to hear how that conversation went.

Once I get home I'm going to try to pull together my synopsis of the weekend. 20 hours of driving home gives me a lot of time to reflect on what we saw, heard and discussed.

I had the privilege of sitting beside Tom Peters during supper on Saturday. One of the interesting comments he made was that the debate within GM on topics like SS vs. Z28 & Z28 vs. Z/28 was just as passion filled as the discussions that take place here. :cool:

Good to hear.

Sounds like a fun weekend Art. I'm jealous! :D

can wait for the podcast!! :thumb:

I'd definetly like to hear how that conversation went.

Actually what worked best this time was all the time we had to talk. GM anted up a reception dinner Friday and a dinner Saturday. We spent hours having informal discussions.

Most importantly, they were candid, honest conversations. Nothing was held back from either side. They were excellent exchanges.

Inan attempt to sum it up in some way. From everything I heard and saw, I had one single disappointment... and believe me, big picture wise, it was a minor detail.

I was talking Z28 vs. SS specifically. ;) And Z28 vs. Z/28. :D

Chris/Jason,

Did you get the impression that project members frequently read our comments/discussions on this site?

Chris/Jason,

Did you get the impression that project members frequently read our comments/discussions on this site?

I am pretty confident that they do.

>If it were possible to steal the show -- I think the V6 manual did that -- that was the third car everyone drove -- and I have to say it's one sweet ride and a lot of fun to drive and the performance will surprise many.
So much for the previous rumor that a manual wouldn't be available with the V6. :D

This is good news! ;)

was pricing ever discussed during this meeting?

if yes, how would you rate your feelings about pricing, based on what info they could give you, on a scale of 1 - 10.(1=not pleased at all, 10=very pleased)

All we can say is there were 4 cars. Three of the colors were Silver, Black, and Red. We cant say what the 4th was.

Whoa! :eek: Hhhooooolllld up....

...hold up.


There were....FOUR cars there? And one was black, one was silver, and one was....RED? OK, I'm convinced; the Camaro definitely is going to meet our expectations and most certainly bring us to the showroom floor with our checkbooks in hand.

Just to show the level of faith i have in the new camaro team and chevrolet in itself. My BIGGEST fear with this car is that in order to get a white car, im going to be forced to get tan interior. Now im thinking, if my biggest fear comes down to color combonations, i will probably be more than pleased with the outcome of the new camaro. Even if i have to buy another color :(.

Whoa! :eek: Hhhooooolllld up....

...hold up.


There were....FOUR cars there? And one was black, one was silver, and one was....RED? OK, I'm convinced; the Camaro definitely is going to meet our expectations and most certainly bring us to the showroom floor with our checkbooks in hand.



Im crossing my fingers that the fourth was either the emerald green metallic from the first gens or sunset orange metallic from the third gens.

was pricing ever discussed during this meeting?

Nothing new, just competitive with the Mustang. They probably haven't determined pricing yet. I believe they do not until closer to the release of the car.

There were....FOUR cars there? And one was black, one was silver, and one was....RED? OK, I'm convinced; the Camaro definitely is going to meet our expectations and most certainly bring us to the showroom floor with our checkbooks in hand.

Yep...red. It looked pretty good in the red that it was in, too.

Do they have all the colors for the Camaro picked out? If so how many colors can we expect?

I agree with whomever said they dont want to get stuck with white/ tan interior....i hate tan interior on a white car... I hope we can mix and match and have a broad range of choices.

Color choices could be very important factor for some people.

Will they offer Plastic Thermoforming Injection Molding????????

Can u say if the black was a pure black like the mustang gt black or was it a metallic black like the tahoes?

Do they have all the colors for the Camaro picked out? If so how many colors can we expect?

I agree with whomever said they dont want to get stuck with white/ tan interior....i hate tan interior on a white car... I hope we can mix and match and have a broad range of choices.

Color choices could be very important factor for some people.

Will they offer Plastic Thermoforming Injection Molding????????

See I LIKE white with tan interiors... just because of the heat here in az... (106 today yay for summer)

On topic, I'm glad everything went well and I felt the same when I saw the pre-prod. It just made my faith in the final product just that more firm. Being lucky enough to see the production intent would be that nudge more thrilling and tear jerking.

How far back and down does the seat go?

Nothing new, just competitive with the Mustang. They probably haven't determined pricing yet. I believe they do not until closer to the release of the car.

Scott said pricing is the LAST thing that gets determined.

I'll paypal you $5 if you tell me what engine choices there are.

I think we need a new black suburban smiley.

"No specific questions"

:D

I'll paypal you $5 if you tell me what engine choices there are.

LOL. breaching the trust Scott, John, and Cheryl put into us. Sorry.

Has GM Powertrain disappointed us yet? Lets leave it at that.

LOL. breaching the trust Scott, John, and Cheryl put into us. Sorry.

Has GM Powertrain disappointed us yet? Lets leave it at that.

Seriously. GM powertrain owns face right now in overall performance, efficiency, size, weight, and cost.

How far back and down does the seat go?+1 plus i hope it doesn't go up as you go forward. i know the mustang does and its annoying.

Was the fourth one a Hugger Orange with black stripes, 1LE option, and my name on the headrest? :-)

Thanks for sharing the experience guys, even the with lack of details (it's absolutely expected). Just knowing so much enthusiasm is given into this project is amazing. When this Camaro comes out it's going to feel like we've really had some inputs in it.

im right there with you buddy,every night before i goto bed i pray to the camaro gods and say "please let there be hugger orange with black stripes".

And as far as the focus group goes.I am sooo green with envy its not even funny.i feel like its 1983 and some kid on the block just got the new red line bicycle and he's doing wheelies in front of my house.:cry::cry:

All’s I can say is what an incredible weekend! Wish I could have posted a bit earlier, but it’s been a whirlwind of family stuff happening since arriving home yesterday… better late than never!


I can’t decide what impressed me most – the people or the cars!! Others have covered pretty well everything that can be covered in their posts on this board and others and I’d like to echo their positive impressions about the car! We definitely learned a lot this weekend, which reinforces the hopes that we all have about how fantastic this car is going to be. Obviously, certain specifics and facts about the vehicles will be made public by GM when the time is appropriate, (looks like this may be sooner than later!) but I gotta tell ya that these guys and ladies have really done their homework and have gone the extra mile to bring us the car we want! Granted, the car isn’t perfect, but it does what is supposed to do – in spades!

The people involved in the development of this car are passionate car people who are extremely proud of what they’ve achieved – and rightly so. What a tremendous privilege to be able to sit down and talk with all these people in a small group or in a very informal one-on-one setting. Lots of opportunities to do both this weekend. All the team members are great listeners and are truly interested in hearing our input. Brett Vivian, the vehicle line director from Australia and I found ourselves on same flight to Toronto yesterday morning and I asked him what the biggest surprise of the weekend was for him… to which he immediately replied, “You guys are just like us and we better deliver a good car if the passion you have is so strong, that people are putting tattoos on themselves in honor of the car and GM.”

The biggest surprise for me this weekend was the V6 car! It totally blew me away! I think people are gonna just flip when they find out the content of this car, and of course, the performance!! A beautifully balanced machine that is simply amazing… this car, in my opinion, will set a new benchmark for entry level cars in this segment. I’m not a V6 person, yet I was truly flabbergasted! GM is gonna sell a whole whack of these cars and that bodes well for the success of this Camaro since as we are all aware that its success is dependent upon the success of the V6. GM has made sure that there are no doubts about achieving this goal!

The V8 was somewhat less of a surprise, since with all the speculation out there about drivetrains and whatnot, the bar had already been set pretty high in my mind. Certainly no disappointments there… and some pretty cool stuff included as standard equipment as well as optional equipment.

No disappointments either for me in the area of how GM intends to market the car with options and packages – definitely some nice surprises for me there!

And again, I’d like to say a huge thank you to GM and the whole team for making this experience happen for us, for listening to the enthusiast community and for having the passion and motivation to bring a car like this to market!

Best regards,

Elie

I was afraid that the pricing info would still be the same "similarly priced mustang". I know its the last thing to figure out, was just hope they would have a "better idea" :D

Do they have all the colors for the Camaro picked out? If so how many colors can we expect?




Based on past patterns of popularity, colors change through the years, but we were told we should see around 8-10 colors. We saw Black, Red & Silver, so we know those are definites.

Curb weight?

/me ducks and runs like hell...

Hopefully its not as portly as the new challenger, that things a toad.

OK, I know there's no specific questions but this one is gotta be a gimmie:

Do the power seats operate in some sort of fashion that you don't have to time with a sun dial? Evidently the Aussies are not in a hurry to get in the back seat but when it's rainy and ****ty outside, I am.

Curb weight?

/me ducks and runs like hell...

GM did a good job with what they had... physics is physics. We didnt get transparent aluminum yet. Scottie hasnt beamed in yet.

Hmmm....interesting answer. Might be better just to say that you can't say.

Physics is indeed physics. Good line to keep in mind.

Bob

How far back and down does the seat go?

Seriously, will tall guys fit?

Kevin is 6' 2" and fit easily. In fact his exact comment was "I had to move the seat up to reach the pedals"

I'm 5'11". Kevin took our rental out for a ride. His seating postion to me was more like 6'5" when I got in to drive following/ I had to move the seat way up.

Thats reassuring to a guy who is 6'6". :D

Hmmm....interesting answer. Might be better just to say that you can't say.



Bob


I know what you mean....

What about the roof height overall inside the Production Camaro's. I know the concept car had somewhat of a chopped roof height issue and Im aware they addressed this on the production car. So here is one of my issues Id like to ask the lucky few who got to see and sit in the 5th gen.s I've sat in cars like the Audi TT, Chrysler 300 C and Charger all with the relatively high belt line and gun sight windows.

In the TT I felt like I was in a box being that the belt line was so high to the height of the side and front glass. Im no basketball player, but one of my main concerns is that when you sit in the new Camaro your head isn't touching the roof or the roof isn't made where you have to duck to a certain degree in the seating position itself.

Im 5'11 and my other main question is can you lay your arm on the window sill comfortabley or are you sitting more like in a corvette where you're on the floor literally? I like just cruising with the window down and arm on the sill without having to reach up like Im trying to crawl out.

One more thing I know you can only say so much , so I'll keep it simple. Did any of the interiors have a color matching theme to the outside color? Like the PT Cruiser, VW Bug, Charger etc?

Anyway I can't wait for the new Camaro to show up at the dealerships, black, red and silver...those are the only colors we need. :cool: Thanks

black, red and silver...those are the only colors we need. :cool: Thanks
HUGGER ORANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We'd love to, but we are under a very strict non-disclosure agreement. We don't want to lose our chance to go back and help out more.


Just for curiousity, did they have you sign a non-disclosure agreement?






We don't have an answer for that one. I do know that even if they don't right away, they are looking far ahead with development. They made sure they covered that. This isn't a painting that is done once and for all and that's it. The refinement is going a long way beyond what will be arrive in the showrooms next spring.


Oh, no... that sounds like they're not bringing the heat next year.




Think of it like a huge Christmas list. You don't always get what you write down on your list, but you do get some things that still make you happy and what you don't get has a reason behind why.


I'd like comfortable seats. I'm tired of seats that make my ass ache.

I'd also like the LS7, but that's not going to happen.

<3500 lbs.

Kevin is 6' 2" and fit easily. In fact his exact comment was "I had to move the seat up to reach the pedals"

I'm 5'11". Kevin took our rental out for a ride. His seating postion to me was more like 6'5" when I got in to drive following/ I had to move the seat way up.

that's good news...another tall guy here...how about the back seat??? enough room for a kid and a car seat?

Just for curiousity, did they have you sign a non-disclosure agreement?

yes

enough room for a kid and a car seat?

defintely. (Dad of 5 and 6 year old boys, I was paying attention to that one) Teri and Jason had enough room to bounce around. :D

defintely. (Dad of 5 and 6 year old boys, I was paying attention to that one) Teri and Jason had enough room to bounce around. :D

that's good news...thanks.:cool:

yes




Alright, you're forgiven...ha ha.

Hugger Orange was my guess too!

Will GM release pictures and/or videos from this event that can be posted here after the secrets no longer have to be kept?

Will GM release pictures and/or videos from this event that can be posted here after the secrets no longer have to be kept?

They had video and stills done. That was their intention. We'll see what happens

OK, I know there's no specific questions but this one is gotta be a gimmie:

Do the power seats operate in some sort of fashion that you don't have to time with a sun dial? Evidently the Aussies are not in a hurry to get in the back seat but when it's rainy and ****ty outside, I am.

I didn't notice that the mechanism was slow.

Best regardSS,

Elie

Great podcast this week. :)

Great podcast this week. :)

I agree! I can't wait for installment 2 tomorrow! < wednesday >

Man, I wish I was cool enough to go to that focus group. Sounds like you guys had a great time!

Just listened to the Podcast. I have a few serious, no-kidding questions:

Was there anybody that asked any critical questions over the weekend? Did anybody get an answer that they didn't like? If they did, would they say so here or on the podcast? Is there anything AT ALL that someone - anyone - found that wasn't 100% perfect? I hate to say it (and I'm being completely and totally honest), but I heard nothing but a cheerleading session here. If that was the point and intent - ok, I'll shut up now. But if the idea was to provide relevant feedback on what was experienced, and not just an advertisement for GM/Chevy, then.....well.....where's the beef?

Once again...an honest inquiry.

Thanks.
Bob

Was there anybody that asked any critical questions over the weekend? Did anybody get an answer that they didn't like? If they did, would they say so here or on the podcast? Is there anything AT ALL that someone - anyone - found that wasn't 100% perfect?

I was critical enough over the weekend that I nicknamed myself "Judas". The cool part was that the Camaro team accepted all of it, discussed all of it, and thanked me for expressing my opinions. I also have a good understanding of how and why certain decisions were made.

You'll notice I have 2 current Camaros in my sig. I'm ecstatic with the replacement for one of them (the one that would interest you) and slightly disappointed with the other .... but I believe that's more a function of me outgrowing the pony car formula than Chevy missing the mark on the Camaro.

Thank you. I don't suppose you'd care to share a bit more detail? I understand you can't if the disclosure agreement prevents such a thing.....but if you can, I'd be most interested in hearing it.

Also....speaking only from my perspective...I'm the consumer. I care more about WHAT decisions were made vice WHY they were made. It is the what (not the why) that my buying decision is made on. The "why" too often sounds like an excuse.

Thanks for the reply.
Bob

PS....I'd take the SS if it weren't a ragtop. :)

PS....I'd take the SS if it weren't a ragtop. :)


Actually, Art's ragtop is a pretty badass ride. It's lowered and has just the right stance.

Was there anybody that asked any critical questions over the weekend?

Yes. Quite a few questions were asked, but a some of them didn't need to be because they were addressed before they could be asked. In other words, some questions wouldn't do any good to be asked because it was already done.

Read this post here:
The funny thing...we didn't have to NEAR as much as last year's focus group. You will probably see this re-posted in a larger synopsis, but I took the most relevant comments from this year (the big "provide your input" thread) and condensed them down to the ones that could actually be used. Interestingly enough, they had many of the topics already put into production or addressed them before they could be presented this time. This could be because a lot of the comments you guys posted this year echoed last year's. That shows you right there that they listened and took what people said seriously.

Think of it like a huge Christmas list. You don't always get what you write down on your list, but you do get some things that still make you happy and what you don't get has a reason behind why.

Did anybody get an answer that they didn't like? If they did, would they say so here or on the podcast?

You bet. Saying what they were in detail would unfortunately break the agreement but I think you know that.

Is there anything AT ALL that someone - anyone - found that wasn't 100% perfect?

Of course. I think we all had some things that we didn't like. Some were rather prominent but a lot were just minor. I can think of a few things offhand myself. Unfortunately, some were pretty much set in stone so I will either learn to live with it or do something about it.There were just as many things about my previous Camaro I didn't like either. Hell, there are a few things about my daily driver I don't like. As we say, no car is perfect for everyone.

However, there were some things that I personally didn't like for MY car, but I felt that it would be good for the success of the car as a whole, and part of our job is to separate the two and try to be convey that.

I hate to say it (and I'm being completely and totally honest), but I heard nothing but a cheerleading session here.

Okay, I hate to say it and I am being totally honest here myself...what kind of site do you think you are on? We like what we saw. If we didn't, we wouldn't be so emphatic about it. What else would you suggest we do? Say it sucks when it doesn't? :lol:

Listen to the next part of that Podcast. I ask what people didn't like. If I remember right, most said what they didn't like was pretty minor compared to what they did like.

But if the idea was to provide relevant feedback on what was experienced, and not just an advertisement for GM/Chevy, then.....well.....where's the beef?

You said it, the idea was to get some info, experience a few things and tell them what we thought...just like a focus group should be. We did what we were supposed to do. There were some details left that we commented on, offered a few new suggestions, pondered a few things but overall walked away pretty happy with what we learned, and we are all being honest about it.

Actually, Art's ragtop is a pretty badass ride. It's lowered and has just the right stance.

There's Eibach lowering kit lowered and there's Koni, Ground Control coilovers, and 400# straight rate coils lowered. I have the latter. :)

But it still doesn't do "angry" on a track nearly as well as HUGGRRR. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Hugger1LE/AutoX/HUGGRRRASA01.jpg

Dammit Jason....you could have waited before replying! Now my post is doomed to failure. That's the last time I give you a heads-up!

And I know what site I'm on (and I typically hear what I expect to hear). It goes without saying that if this were more of a general car site, my questions (and comments) would have been a bit more....shall we say....direct? :) You should see the flak I take on some Mustang forums when I'm critical of the Modular and praise the LSx. It can get ugly!

Also...I read that post. It was the podcast that got me thinking.

Charlie....I'm sure it is. Personally, I'm not a big fan of lowered cars. In fact, when I bought my 99 T/A, it had already been lowered. I traded someone for the stock springs to bring it back up to a reasonable height. :D

Good night.
Bob

Bob's point is valid in the sense that you guys sound euphoric in yesterdays podcast and in all the 'after' posts. I am not dissing you in any way but the podcast sounded like a bunch of easily impressionable teenagers.

I am keeping an open mind in thinking that you were all being very objective about the issue at hand. 15 disciples and no objections make for a pretty decided jury.

But it doesn't do "angry" on a track nearly as well as HUGGRRR. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Hugger1LE/AutoX/HUGGRRRASA01.jpg

Eeeww....those look like corners! This is my idea of ugly (http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/cobra/images/mainpic1.jpg). On radials, no less. :cool:

My experience with those silly turning tracks is fairly limited (http://members.cox.net/rdcosby1/ta/images/turn8.jpg). though I admit it is a blast!.

Someone posted that pictures were seen of the production convertibles and that the lines of the coupe were maintained. can anyone say if it has a hardtop or a ragtop? sorry if this has been previously addressed. thanks:)

Charlie....I'm sure it is. Personally, I'm not a big fan of lowered cars.

Well......that's just dragracer talk.......:p

Someone posted that pictures were seen of the production convertibles and that the lines of the coupe were maintained. can anyone say if it has a hardtop or a ragtop? sorry if this has been previously addressed. thanks:)

ragtop

thanks!!! im sooo excited about the camaro and the info the disciples have given us!!!! can't wait!!!



1995 Camaro Z28 Black with T-tops

So......can you "blame" this group if there's a screw up???

"Dont blame me, I wasn't there." :p

seriously though, I have a lot of faith in the people that were able to be there. They were chosen for one reason or another, and I have no doubt that they were able to relay any input and concerns that most of us had...that could be realistically brought up anyway. BUT like Jason has said, a lot of these things were already addressed before they got there, so someone out there is listening to us. :thumb:

But to be honest...the group was made up of "friendly faces".....;)

...I'm going to jump in here.
I sent my 'impressions' to get 'cleared' (don't want any black Suburbans stopping by), ...but as soon as I get the OK, ...I will post as a new thread
...as I saw someone else posted, ...I'm not sure what impressed me most, ...the engineers/designers working on the car, ...or the car itself. :)

...stay tuned...

Kevin

But to be honest...the group was made up of "friendly faces".....;)

Some things to keep in mind:

A more mixed focus group is the sort of thing that turns out vehicles like the Pontiac Aztek. GM said up front that they weren't going to make that mistake again (actually, they said "no focus groups" :lol:), so they're trying something different.

Several of the "disciples" went with the intention of bringing up several key points they were concerned about, only to discover that GM had already addressed them.

It's not like it was just an information session -- they got to drive the cars, play with the knobs -- they really got to try stuff out. The fact that all of them came away so deliriously happy and so filled with gushing praise is a testament to two things:

1. GM has really done their homework, and they are serious about making Camaro succeed.

2. You must realize that the whole event, bus ride included, was designed by GM to wow the disciples. The almost-creepy gushing could be a side effect of that, and experience with other similar events shows that the feeling wears off after a few hours, leaving people willing to reflect honestly on what they saw. The podcast was recorded immediately after the event, and it had clearly not worn off yet. In the later posts from each of the disciples (at least the ones I've read), all of them are a bit more down-to-earth, yet it still sounds like GM has hit the nail on the head. Given that there are still a few more months of fine-tuning, I suspect that we are, as a whole, going to be an extremely happy buying public.

Finally, please realize that the disciples are all under a strict non-disclosure agreement, which probably means that non-specific praise is just about the only thing left that they're allowed to say!

I'm sure that some of us are going to be disappointed about weight, others about tire fitment, others about color and option availability, and others about SS vs. Z28 vs. Z/28. Unfortunately, the disciples either don't know or aren't allowed to comment on any of those things. But, as a whole, it looks like we're going to be happy and like GM is going to sell a ton of Camaros.

...which probably means that non-specific praise is just about the only thing left that they're allowed to say!...


You are probably right.

Bob

umm... I'm no Camaro cheerleader. I own Pontiacs. I was the rooster in the hen house.

:D

You bet we spoke our mnds. I think what worked best this time was the fact we had 2 nights there. Both nights GM hosted dinners for us at the hotel. All of the GMers were present at the dinners.

This is where we had the most time to really do deep dives into issues - especially Saturday evening following the formal sessions at Milford. GM held nothing back. Sure, we got answers we didnt like, but we did get great explainations as to why certain things were done certain ways.

So yeah, I know it's clear the Disciples could be looked at as a bunch of "homers", but I can assure you, we each brought our own individual perspectives to the table. The group ranged from college aged to grandparents. We hailed from across the US and Canada. It was a diverse group for sure.

No matter what they do, not everyone will be happy. Such as - where did the window switches end up. Some of us wanted it on the doors, others on the center console. (Can't say where they did end up)

There were some options that didnt make the cut. (Vehicle cost and weight were HUGE issues). They heard feedback from us on that.

and anyone making the assumption this was the only focus group done. that GM only solicited input from FCar enthusiasts... bzzzzzzzzzzz WRONG.

:)

Guys,

I don't mean to stir up anything.....seriously, my comments were made with tongue firmly in cheek, so to speak.....

I know all of you and know you're good honest people......people I know will do the right thing.

See you all at the next "Back Porch".... ;)

Ok I hope someone can say something about the spoiler(is it like the concepts?). Or is that top secret also:confused:

There were spoilers. I think that is as much as I can say. Hope that helps for now!

and anyone making the assumption this was the only focus group done. that GM only solicited input from FCar enthusiasts... bzzzzzzzzzzz WRONG.

That would explain how good the V6 model is.

Ask a bunch of Camaro and Mustang owners what they want, and then ask a bunch of 350Z and Accord Coupe owners what they want, and you'll probably get two completely different sets of answers.

Don't drink the V6 model water! :eek: :D

There were some options that didnt make the cut. (Vehicle cost and weight were HUGE issues). They heard feedback from us on that.

:)

Im taking this to mean its heavier than you liked and maybe a little more expensive than you thought it should be?¿

There were some options that didnt make the cut. (Vehicle cost and weight were HUGE issues). They heard feedback from us on that.

Im taking this to mean its heavier than you liked and maybe a little more expensive than you thought it should be?¿

Well, either that, OR, due to weight & cost concerns, some things didn't make the cut? :think:

Well, either that, OR, due to weight & cost concerns, some things didn't make the cut? :think:

You can probably add anticipated demand as well. Things CAN change moving forward. As an example ... IIRC HUD was added to the ZO6 because the market demanded it.

You can probably add anticipated demand as well. Things CAN change moving forward. As an example ... IIRC HUD was added to the ZO6 because the market demanded it.

There have also been instances in the automobile manufacturing world that some things don't make the initial cut for one reason or another, but are still in progress.

Im taking this to mean its heavier than you liked and maybe a little more expensive than you thought it should be?¿

I wasnt speaking towards specifics, but more towards cost and weight were always considered when decisions on content were discussed.

...Listen to the next part of that Podcast. I ask what people didn't like. If I remember right, most said what they didn't like was pretty minor compared to what they did like...

I did. "Minor" stuff. No specifics because of details (or in two cases, the car was perfect). Heard most of the rest of the stuff that was talked about on here (more or less verbatim).

Thanks for putting them up.
Bob

I did. "Minor" stuff. No specifics because of details (or in two cases, the car was perfect). Heard most of the rest of the stuff that was talked about on here (more or less verbatim).

Thanks for putting them up.
Bob

I think Kevin put it well when he said to me on the way home.... "It's like we each walked in wanting 15 things, and we all came away with 12"

Hmmm....the 80% solution. I am certainly familier with that philosophy.

I think Kevin put it well when he said to me on the way home.... "It's like we each walked in wanting 15 things, and we all came away with 12"

This is a good sign!!!:cool: As soon as you are able to release the info on the things you didnt like, please let me know.

*Also would like to know, what was the biggest issue or (thing) that we will not see on the production car? Of course, when you are able to release info.

Hmmm....the 80% solution. I am certainly familier with that philosophy.

I'm not sure I like the direction you took this. I would never suggest the car is an "80% solution"

Lets make this really simple. It's a Camaro, so...

Does it look great... yup
Is it fast... yup
Does it handle well... yup
Is it comfortable... yup

The major bases are covered here.

The rest of the things we got into were really more of personal preferences. We were getting nickpciky. Things like... are the window switches on the doors or center console for example. That was one of my dislikes.

12 of 15 is 80%. Sorry if you don't like that I put it in different terms.

I'm not into the "nitpicky" stuff. The placement of window switches means nothing to me (the wife might have issues, though). I'm much more into the bigger items. To use your list:

I have no issues with the looks of the car - I like it.
Fast is relative. Will have to wait and see.
Handling is relative. Will have to wait and see.
Comfortable - probably won't have any issues with that either.

So for me, the "major bases" aren't close to being covered yet. I suppose I'll find out if they will be in September. And I'm sure you know my biggest issues. I'll spare you from posting them again.

Bob

Sounds to me like the window switches are on the center console. The media is going to take swipes at that. I've never seen anyone prefer them in this location.

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/01/medium_2229462714_f2996bc70a_o.jpg

This pic from a few months back pretty clearly shows the switches in the door.I will be a bit miffed if they've been moved, just because that is time, money & effort that could have been spent on something more constructive. Nobody at all will complain about door mounted switches but quite a few will if they on the console.

12 of 15 is 80%. Sorry if you don't like that I put it in different terms.

I'm not into the "nitpicky" stuff. The placement of window switches means nothing to me (the wife might have issues, though). I'm much more into the bigger items. To use your list:

I have no issues with the looks of the car - I like it.
Fast is relative. Will have to wait and see.
Handling is relative. Will have to wait and see.
Comfortable - probably won't have any issues with that either.

So for me, the "major bases" aren't close to being covered yet. I suppose I'll find out if they will be in September. And I'm sure you know my biggest issues. I'll spare you from posting them again.

Bob

The major bases wont be covered for you until you drive it. Nor should they be. and I'd say those criteria are more subjective than relative.

Ok. :)

Have a nice day.
Bob

PS....I prefer the window switches on the door.

actuall if you have ever riden in a GTO i think you will agree that having the window switcehs in the center is an awesome feature. It is very accessible and makes the door look 100% better. If the interior is close ( in quality) to the GTO i will love it.

The wife's beemer had them in the center. I prefer them in the door.

Personal preference.....certainly not a deal breaker for ANY car I might buy.

When i ride in my friends GTO...and i go to put my window down, i have to 'invade his space' and used to bump arms, ugh. Now i just say dude put my window down! If they were to be in the center...i hope they'd be seperated so a reach over is not required!

Someone spill half a bean damnit...at least give us the last two #s in the curb weight! :)

Someone spill half a bean damnit...at least give us the last two #s in the curb weight! :)

V8 Auto - 14
V8 Manual - 77

:devil:

V8 Auto - 3814
V8 Manual - 3877

:devil:

That's my bet.

I have no issues with the looks of the car - I like it.
Fast is relative. Will have to wait and see. I think we can be pretty confident that GM won't disappoint us in the power department, so that should be a non-issue? ;)
Handling is relative. Will have to wait and see. Well, Elie & Art apparently thought the handling was impressive, and I'd trust the opinions of guys who ACTUALLY DO take their Camaros onto race tracks :cool:.
Comfortable - probably won't have any issues with that either.

So for me, the "major bases" aren't close to being covered yet. Having been no closer to driving this car than ~99.9% of the members on this board (excluding a lucky few), I'm pretty confident that those MAJOR POINTS are probably going to satisfy everyone (unless you're the type who can't be pleased, regardless of what is put in front of you :rolleyes: ). But like you said, I guess we'll have to wait and see? :shrug:

V8 Auto - 14
V8 Manual - 77

:devil:
Hmmm :think:.

V8 Man. - 3577
V8 Auto - 3614

Do I win the gold star? :D

Hmmm :think:.

V8 Man. - 3577
V8 Auto - 3614

Do I win the gold star? :D

Be realistic. Look at the G8 curb weight.

I have a question for the disciples.

How would you compare the ingress and egress of the Camaro with the Corvette? What about when you get inside? Is it close in size?

I'm over 6ft tall and a good bit over 300 pounds. I can get in and out of a Vette, but it ain't fun or easy. When I do get inside, it is a bit cramped. There is enough leg room and head room, but torso room is a bit tight.

After years of being a strong Impala fan, I'm looking more seriously at the Camaro these days.

Is it allowable to ask if the two V-8's the group got to drive were the same motor? Just curious with the two V-6 model thing floating around.

2nd gen F-bodies had the window switches on the console.
Jeep Libertys have them on the console.

I can say that I did not like either placements. As a matter of fact, I downright hated it.

did the third gens have them in the center? seems like I remember my sisters firebird having them in the center...

Yes, all Thirds had them on the center console. I myself like them there, but in Third Gen style though. Not like the GTO's with the buttons right next to each other way over by the driver. They were further back and each button was right next to where both passengers were, with the hatch release button in the middle.

I think we can be pretty confident that GM won't disappoint us in the power department, so that should be a non-issue?

I have no doubt GM will come through in the power dept. Never been a concern. Unfortunately, and as evidenced by the nearly-two ton GT500, there is more to it than just a HP or TQ number. So yes, unfortunately it is a potential issue for at least some (quite likely a small minority).

Elie & Art apparently thought the handling was impressive, and I'd trust the opinions of guys who ACTUALLY DO take their Camaros onto race tracks.

What is "impressive"? I'm sure it will handle well.

Having been no closer to driving this car than ~99.9% of the members on this board (excluding a lucky few), I'm pretty confident that those MAJOR POINTS are probably going to satisfy everyone (unless you're the type who can't be pleased, regardless of what is put in front of you).

Cool. I hope the car is a big hit. I hope my concerns are unfounded. The problem is that my "major points" and yours are likely different, or at least have somewhat different thresholds.

But like you said, I guess we'll have to wait and see?

Correct. We can agree.

Hmmm .

V8 Man. - 3577
V8 Auto - 3614

Do I win the gold star?

More like a gold dream - but it sure would be a VERY pleasant surprise.

Be realistic. Look at the G8 curb weight.

The G8 weighs in at 3995 lbs. Substituting some numbers here gives us...

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3977

Boy I hope not. I really do.

Bob

That's my bet.

I'll bet the auto is heavier than the manual.

The G8 weighs in at 3995 lbs. Substituting some numbers here gives us...

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3977

Boy I hope not. I really do.

Bob


Just a matter of how much the ol' Sawzall will do...gotta put this fatty on a diet, only problem is you have to buy her first and hope you can convince her to lose some weight! :mad:




I know this is most likely a no...but i wonder if anyone brought up the possibility of a solid axle swap, not as an option, just if there might be limited fabrication involved. Like a Terminator 8.8 swap.

I'll bet the auto is heavier than the manual.

Yeah you're right. The 6L80 has 88 pounds on the TR6060.

I change my guess to 3914 for the auto.

The G8 weighs in at 3995 lbs. Substituting some numbers here gives us...

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3977

Boy I hope not. I really do.

Bob

I hope not either. But frankly, I wouldn't be shocked either.

I could probably put up with the "torque gauge" and the bizzarro interior, but a nearly two ton Camaro would leave me cold and unwilling to purchase one.

Just a matter of how much the ol' Sawzall will do...gotta put this fatty on a diet, only problem is you have to buy her first and hope you can convince her to lose some weight! :mad:

LOL. I've never taken a Sawzall to a car, and I hope to never do so. There are plenty of relatively easy ways to lose weight, but the lower you start, the better off you end up being.

We'll see.

I know this is most likely a no...but i wonder if anyone brought up the possibility of a solid axle swap, not as an option, just if there might be limited fabrication involved. Like a Terminator 8.8 swap.

All things are possible. However, New Edge Cobras (99/01 & 03-04) used the same mounting points as live axle GTs, thus the swap was very easy (I did it on both my 99 and my 04). If there isn't a live axle already made for the Zeta platform, then a swap will likely be somewhat more involved. Still, I'm sure the aftermarket (or even GM) would figure something out, assuming there is enough of a market.

Bob

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3977

Those are indeed some ugly-azz numbers.

Man I hope not, for that weight I will buy a Challenger, at least I will have some room in the back.

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3877

:devil:


That'd be my guess, though I'd be happier the lower it got, just as most ppl on here would. Wouldn't stop me from purchase as long as the car 'felt good.

Speaking of leg room and car seats.....

Can anyone say if the back seat is a bench seat or are they buckets as well. If this has been said already I apologize....

Thanks!! :)

V8 Auto - 14
V8 Manual - 77

:devil:

I think...

V8 Auto - 3814
V8 Manual - 3777

..would make more sense. :eek: Yikes!

Does it carry a spare tire and jack or any lead bricks that can be easily removed? :)

V8 Auto - 14
V8 Manual - 77

:devil:

why am I thinking that he is just BS'ing?

I have been following along for months on end now. Being a Mustang guy at heart I cant help but to be some what excited about the Camaro. Two things stand out in my mind. Weight, and price. We dont know either but Im guessing this sucker is going to be heavy. The reference to the G8 is all I needed to hear.

Some of the reliable sources of info have stated that this car will be heavy as well that are not part of the focus group but have been reliable in the past. I know its all rumors at the moment so take it for what its worth.

Time will tell all but I have to admit my excitement is not quite as big as it once was. I think there are some people who are going to be disappointed when the weight is final but we shall see. I hope Im wrong. I remember the out cry on the Mustang boards when the Gt 500 weight was out of the bag.

Time will tell all but I have to admit my excitement is not quite as big as it once was. I think there are some people who are going to be disappointed when the weight is final but we shall see. I hope Im wrong. I remember the out cry on the Mustang boards when the Gt 500 weight was out of the bag.

Its hard to stay excited at times when we are all worried about the weight and price. All we can do now is hope GM really is doing what they can to make this car as great as it should be.

and welcome to the board! :thumb:

Wow, more than the GTO's. That's ALOT of weight. And to think a fully loaded T-Top L98 IROC-Z was about 3,450LBS. and people thought that was alot then LOL! The Camaro seems to have gained about 400LBS. With two decent sized passengers this thing will be pulling over about 4,000LBS. if this is true.

The Camaro will not be 3600 pounds but it should be under the G8 in wegiht. Think more in the 3800 pound range.

The car being shorter should be worth 120-200 pounds.

If you want less weight join Jenny Craig as it the Camaro had to have 5 star crash rating and lower cost or there was not going to be a Camaro.

Weight is a factor in all cars today as just check what the late 80's Honda CRX weight was vs the present smaller Honda Fit. They all have paid the price of weight and been covering it with the addition of power. That formula will not work in the future.

We may see a lighter Camaro later but it will come due to loss in size as will many of the new models. Only time will tell.

I dont think it will weigh what a G8 does either by any means and the saving grace will be the LS3. Im a Ford guy but I really love the Gm power plants. Everybody has their priorities and GM has to make compromises as with any car company and I think this car will satisfy the masses even if it comes in a little heavy. Now the price may kill the deal for me personally as Im just a poor working stiff.

Im going to sit back and let the price fall out on them anyway and wait for the 11 Mustang anyway to compare as I think they may have a thing or two up their sleeve as well.

I dont think it will weigh what a G8 does either by any means and the saving grace will be the LS3. Im a Ford guy but I really love the Gm power plants. Everybody has their priorities and GM has to make compromises as with any car company and I think this car will satisfy the masses even if it comes in a little heavy. Now the price may kill the deal for me personally as Im just a poor working stiff.

Im going to sit back and let the price fall out on them anyway and wait for the 11 Mustang anyway to compare as I think they may have a thing or two up their sleeve as well.

Hmm Ford guy, GM powerplants....hard worker....Get yourself a clean notchback, toss in an LS3, at under 3000lbs you'd get phenominal mileage and walk away from everything!

Originally Posted by 99SilverSS:
I think...

V8 Auto - 3814
V8 Manual - 3777
This is what I was thinking as well...less body, less glass + mechanisms, less doors, somewhat less; rear carpet, trim, etc...

Hmmm :think:.

V8 Man. - 3577
V8 Auto - 3614

Do I win the gold star? :D
Be realistic. Look at the G8 curb weight.
More like a gold dream - but it sure would be a VERY pleasant surprise.
Oh c'mon guys, you can't take everything so seriously!! :p

"Realistically", I'd "like" to hear that they're 3677 & 3714 for the V8/Auto, respectively. That would be sort of close (admittedly, lighter) than the GTO. But I realize that somewhere around ~3800 is "probably" more likely :rolleyes:.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see. We might all be pleasantly surprised?! :shrug: ;)

3800lbs is concerning to me, especiall if you want the 400hp model,
that thing will be a gas hog.
The new challenger might do a nice burnout with it's 425hp but with 4000lbs to log around it'd be lucky to break out of the 13s and we're all looking for that performance.

The G8 weighs in at 3995 lbs. Substituting some numbers here gives us...

V8 Auto - 3914
V8 Manual - 3977


I'd guess 3814 and 3777 or 3914 and 3877 (manual being lighter). It depends on how successful the diet from the G8 was, and what the standard equipment is.

R&T put a base model G8 GT on the scales and it came in under the 3995 quoted. I wonder how that happened? Perhaps the gas tank wasn't full?

One thing I didn't see mentioned is a discussion on rear end durability.
I'm not asking for specifics, only if it was discussed at all.

I'd like to get into more serious drag racing with my new 5th gen. But if it is going to require thousands of dollars in upgrades to handle drag radials like my 4th gen..... I may be forced to at least look at other options. Based on C6 rear failures, CTSv rear failures and VE SS 6.0L A6/Pontiac G8 rear failures, this is a major concern for me.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is a discussion on rear end durability.
I'm not asking for specifics, only if it was discussed at all.

came up at the 1st focus group. :)

Nothing mentioned at the second go around?
If not, hopefully it is no longer an issue!

Nothing mentioned at the second go around?
If not, hopefully it is no longer an issue!

Maybe the fears were put to rest at the FIRST meeting?! ;)