Root cause of throwing belts?

I've searched on here but there seems to be conflicting stories as to why.

Procharger of course. Belt has been fine since installed and idling for the last yr or so. Finally get it on the road for some testing and never exceed 2500rpm's. Never see boost either. Then all of a sudden parked in the garage I blip the throttle for a friend and the next thing I know--I lost 1 rib on the 12 rib belt and the belt has walked over the front part of the crank and blower pulley.

I recheck everything (don't have an alignment tool--I know) after pulling the belt off. Clean the belt up and take the rest of the rib off. Install, double check to double check, fire car, idles perfect belt appears to be fine and blip the throttle...nothing. AS SOON as I turn the key off SNAP! Another rib! WTF? Now remember this thing has been on the car for the last yr w/ no road time and just idling etc w/ out a single hiccup...even after I had a custom pulley spacer machined as I screwed up the stock piece.

I check everything over again and this time pull on the belt to watch what the tensioner is doing and it appears it's going up and down based on my pulling but there also seems to be east west motion to the tension arm/pulley every so slightly. Why a would a perfectly brand new F1 S/C do this? How in gods name do you fix it? I've tightened the belt, adjuster bolt, locator nut & mounting bolt especially the mounting bolt tight as all get out as this is what appears to keep the arm from doing the east west motion.

Really need some input. It gets tuned today in a few hrs and if the belt snaps again I'm going NA until I get this SOMBEYOTCH figured out. Thanks guys.

Silas,

Fixed.

Had to put a spacer on the idler pulley. Don't know exactly why it shifted but it did. All is good for now at least and I got some street tuning done. Saw 3psi and that was it. LOL That 3 felt good though. Sat it'll be on the dyno for 3-4 hrs getting it worked out. Here's shooting for a conservative 650-700rwhp. :D

Gald you figured it out. Usually when belts are thrown its because of misaligned pulleys...or Procharger's crappy design. I was going to suggest getting the SCDE tensioner. Good luck on the dyno!

-B

P.S. Are you keeping the blower? I thought you wanted to go turbo?

Gald you figured it out. Usually when belts are thrown its because of misaligned pulleys...or Procharger's crappy design. I was going to suggest getting the SCDE tensioner. Good luck on the dyno!

-B

P.S. Are you keeping the blower? I thought you wanted to go turbo?

-B,
It was definitely the idler pulley. I'm getting ready to add another spacer tonight after work to center the belt on the pulley. Crank and blower pulley is perfect but I'll be back stateside for a week and pick up an angle reader just to be sure. I called SDCE about their product and downtime and they said it'll be longer than a week because the season is picking up again. I remember Ben waiting over a month for his. I asked how much for a new bracket and tension and they quoted me 835.00. That's a lot of coin for it but I may just pony up if mine doesn't hold up well.

Yes I do want to go TT but I'll keep this for now and see how it does. I was frustrated for so long and to see progress--I just want to enjoy the end product...so the S/C stays. It felt good to be in the seat again.

When are you going to be done w/ yours?

Silas,

-B,
It was definitely the idler pulley. I'm getting ready to add another spacer tonight after work to center the belt on the pulley. Crank and blower pulley is perfect but I'll be back stateside for a week and pick up an angle reader just to be sure. I called SDCE about their product and downtime and they said it'll be longer than a week because the season is picking up again. I remember Ben waiting over a month for his. I asked how much for a new bracket and tension and they quoted me 835.00. That's a lot of coin for it but I may just pony up if mine doesn't hold up well.

Yes I do want to go TT but I'll keep this for now and see how it does. I was frustrated for so long and to see progress--I just want to enjoy the end product...so the S/C stays. It felt good to be in the seat again.

When are you going to be done w/ yours?

Silas,


I guess if you buy a whole new bracket from them along with the tensioner...its gonna run you $800.00. I remember my tensionser cost $400 but I sent them my bracket.

As for my car....well my daily driver died on me last week and I got pissed so I ended up buying a new car! LOL! :D

I'm going to try to at least get my motor into the car before the end of summer. Maybe if Im lucky the car will be running come Christmas time. :cool:

-B

My experience... I had problem with belt alignment walking. Pulley drive was aligned within 1/32". So, I noticed that when the drive load went to unload (engine rpm deceleration), the tensioner would deflect alot allowing the belt top side to come loose.

Thus, the cause of belt misalignment and walking off the pulley. The ATI tensioner system does not have a fixed stop. So, I made a simple one from delrin. Located on the belt top side/ tensioner arm, and, mounted to the WP mount bolt/ fastener.

Now the idler belt tension device can only unload about 0.060" from the tight side. It worked. Also, it allowed me to dial less idler tension load on the belt which results in less cantilevered load on the engine crank-shaft. Less reversed bending and reduced fatigue failure potential. An Engineer's solution.

The ATI tensioner has it's flaws, but an $800 dollar solution is to high a cost. Hope this helps. B. (97ss - 383 - D1)

Silas, glad you got it figured out! I'm not a big fan of SDCE's pricing or customer service, but their tensioner setup is a good one.

Just remember that going boosted (this includes the Turbo guys as well) theres always going to be bugs to work out once you start. Just be persistant and patient, and keep at it, and you'll get it dialed in soon enough.

Best of luck to you this weekend on the dyno. Be sure to take video of it and post it up as soon as you get back as we are all anxious to see how it does!

My experience... I had problem with belt alignment walking. Pulley drive was aligned within 1/32". So, I noticed that when the drive load went to unload (engine rpm deceleration), the tensioner would deflect alot allowing the belt top side to come loose.

Thus, the cause of belt misalignment and walking off the pulley. The ATI tensioner system does not have a fixed stop. So, I made a simple one from delrin. Located on the belt top side/ tensioner arm, and, mounted to the WP mount bolt/ fastener.

Now the idler belt tension device can only unload about 0.060" from the tight side. It worked. Also, it allowed me to dial less idler tension load on the belt which results in less cantilevered load on the engine crank-shaft. Less reversed bending and reduced fatigue failure potential. An Engineer's solution.

The ATI tensioner has it's flaws, but an $800 dollar solution is to high a cost. Hope this helps. B. (97ss - 383 - D1)

Now you know you gotta post pics after that suggestion. :D I'm a picture kinda guys.

Silas, glad you got it figured out! I'm not a big fan of SDCE's pricing or customer service, but their tensioner setup is a good one.

Just remember that going boosted (this includes the Turbo guys as well) theres always going to be bugs to work out once you start. Just be persistant and patient, and keep at it, and you'll get it dialed in soon enough.

Best of luck to you this weekend on the dyno. Be sure to take video of it and post it up as soon as you get back as we are all anxious to see how it does!

Yeah Ben you are right about patience. Try 3 yrs. :) It's all good. I've got the camera ready so I'll have something. I really don't expect high numbers just a good conservative tune. Once I throw the meth on in the states then I'll go for the gusto. Hell just driving it now is more than a thrill for me...I can't imagine what the boost will be like.

Oh and 96 injectors are some drinking mofo's. Just at idle I ate up 5 gallons in 30 mins or so it seemed. It's running much better now and my so called tune was WAY off. LOL

Yeah Ben you are right about patience. Try 3 yrs. :) It's all good. I've got the camera ready so I'll have something. I really don't expect high numbers just a good conservative tune. Once I throw the meth on in the states then I'll go for the gusto. Hell just driving it now is more than a thrill for me...I can't imagine what the boost will be like.

Oh and 96 injectors are some drinking mofo's. Just at idle I ate up 5 gallons in 30 mins or so it seemed. It's running much better now and my so called tune was WAY off. LOL

5 gallons from a 30 minute idle! :eek: Yeah, your car needs tuned something fierce! I know guys with 1000 RWHP, and they are not NEARLY that bad on fuel.

I'm with you though on the tune. Just tune it till' it's dialed in, and "it makes what it makes". I never was one for eeking every last pony out at safety's expense.

5 gallons from a 30 minute idle! :eek: Yeah, your car needs tuned something fierce! I know guys with 1000 RWHP, and they are not NEARLY that bad on fuel.

I'm with you though on the tune. Just tune it till' it's dialed in, and "it makes what it makes". I never was one for eeking every last pony out at safety's expense.

Ed from HpFactory is here from Va Beach, he got them dialed in but it's still rich at idle but not 10.4 rich more like 13.5 rich. LOL. I'm idling right around 850 rpm's and could go lower but my vac is horrible. 6-8" inches of vac. I remember w/ my tune I'd initially when I 1st started the car over a yr ago I was seeing 10-13". The engine was broke in prior to shipping but I hope I didn't kill those rings--that would suck the big one. The car pulls good and the brakes appear to be fine. My just have to find room for a vac canister...where I have no clue...well yes I do. Requires relocating the factory PCM and ditching the the bulky piece of what's left of the AC. May be a winter project since I'll be in sunny Fl. :D

Got that other spacer on last night too so the rib is centered on the idler pulley now. I'm getting faster and faster working on that thing. Had the belt off in under 10 mins...before it was a pain and took me an hr. LOL

Ed from HpFactory is here from Va Beach, he got them dialed in but it's still rich at idle but not 10.4 rich more like 13.5 rich. LOL. I'm idling right around 850 rpm's and could go lower but my vac is horrible. 6-8" inches of vac. I remember w/ my tune I'd initially when I 1st started the car over a yr ago I was seeing 10-13". The engine was broke in prior to shipping but I hope I didn't kill those rings--that would suck the big one. The car pulls good and the brakes appear to be fine. My just have to find room for a vac canister...where I have no clue...well yes I do. Requires relocating the factory PCM and ditching the the bulky piece of what's left of the AC. May be a winter project since I'll be in sunny Fl. :D

Got that other spacer on last night too so the rib is centered on the idler pulley now. I'm getting faster and faster working on that thing. Had the belt off in under 10 mins...before it was a pain and took me an hr. LOL


Your rings should be fine. I was running around with my AFR on my wideband reading 9.5-10 at WOT for a while until I got it tuned, and you know how it turned out then :devil: I would worry about running that lean though (13.5). Not bad for cruising around or at idle, but if that is your AFR while your in the boost, then you are well into the danger zone. I would be worried with anything leaner than 12.0 personally.

Well after not driving the car for the last 2 days...I got to start it up and she didn't want to fire. I got it to run but it didn't like no cold start up. Wouldn't move under it's own power until she was warmed up AND under any load my AFR's were reading 9.5-10. :cry: She needs a lot more work. She ran like crap and doesn't like any throttle and the minute I let off the gas she reads instant 13.5.

I have to drive 2 hrs to the dyno and I'm not sure I want to risk it. Just my luck and I fly out Sunday to Panama City for a week.

I think I'm just gonna ship it INOP and be done w/ it and have it tuned at Hartline Performance as I have been in touch w/ Cal for the last 2 mos.

Well after not driving the car for the last 2 days...I got to start it up and she didn't want to fire. I got it to run but it didn't like no cold start up. Wouldn't move under it's own power until she was warmed up AND under any load my AFR's were reading 9.5-10. :cry: She needs a lot more work. She ran like crap and doesn't like any throttle and the minute I let off the gas she reads instant 13.5.

I have to drive 2 hrs to the dyno and I'm not sure I want to risk it. Just my luck and I fly out Sunday to Panama City for a week.

I think I'm just gonna ship it INOP and be done w/ it and have it tuned at Hartline Performance as I have been in touch w/ Cal for the last 2 mos.

With as big of a change as you have done to it, un-tuned it sounds like it is running like it should be for its condition. Only 2 hours on 9.5-10 AFR will be okay. I drove mine 13 hours and over 700 miles just in the trip I took from Indiana to New Jersey last spring with mine that rich. Not to mention I drove it a bit in Indiana prior to that trip, and then some more in New Jersey before I finally drove it back into PA to get it tuned. 13.5-14.5 is where your AFR should be at when your out of the throttle or just cruising down the highway. If you are reading past 13.0 when you are in the throttle, thats when I would get worried.

I honestly think you'll be okay to drive it to the tuners Silas. It needs a tune something fierce. I know it is running like crap now and you are overly worried, but if I can drive mine as rich as I did for as long as I did and was okay, you can surely drive yours that fat for the small 2 hours.

One more thing you might want to check is that everything is sealed up properly between the blower and the throttle body. It almost sound like you might have some kind of vacuum leak, and you have to stay in the throttle to keep it running. Just make sure all the hoses and lines are clamped up properly. You probably just need a tune.

With as big of a change as you have done to it, un-tuned it sounds like it is running like it should be for its condition. Only 2 hours on 9.5-10 AFR will be okay. I drove mine 13 hours and over 700 miles just in the trip I took from Indiana to New Jersey last spring with mine that rich. Not to mention I drove it a bit in Indiana prior to that trip, and then some more in New Jersey before I finally drove it back into PA to get it tuned. 13.5-14.5 is where your AFR should be at when your out of the throttle or just cruising down the highway. If you are reading past 13.0 when you are in the throttle, thats when I would get worried.

I honestly think you'll be okay to drive it to the tuners Silas. It needs a tune something fierce. I know it is running like crap now and you are overly worried, but if I can drive mine as rich as I did for as long as I did and was okay, you can surely drive yours that fat for the small 2 hours.

One more thing you might want to check is that everything is sealed up properly between the blower and the throttle body. It almost sound like you might have some kind of vacuum leak, and you have to stay in the throttle to keep it running. Just make sure all the hoses and lines are clamped up properly. You probably just need a tune.

You must've ate up A LOT of gas if you ran it like that. I ate up 5 gallons I'm sure of it traveling less than 30 miles. As far as leaks it's sealed up tighter than a drum. All I did was add a spacer to the idler pulley and that's it.

My cruising AFR's are 9.5-10 and if you did that for 13 hrs then surely I can do a lously 2...I just hate cutting it so close when I have a flight and my wife is terrible w/ directions (no GPS...haven't gotten around to buying one) so I'm gonna have to sleep on this one and see how I feel in the morning. Thanks for the confidence though.

You must've ate up A LOT of gas if you ran it like that. I ate up 5 gallons I'm sure of it traveling less than 30 miles. As far as leaks it's sealed up tighter than a drum. All I did was add a spacer to the idler pulley and that's it.

My cruising AFR's are 9.5-10 and if you did that for 13 hrs then surely I can do a lously 2...I just hate cutting it so close when I have a flight and my wife is terrible w/ directions (no GPS...haven't gotten around to buying one) so I'm gonna have to sleep on this one and see how I feel in the morning. Thanks for the confidence though.

Good luck dude. Let me know how things turn out. :)

I just hate cutting it so close when I have a flight and my wife is terrible w/ directions (no GPS...haven't gotten around to buying one) so I'm gonna have to sleep on this one and see how I feel in the morning. Thanks for the confidence though.

They say its buggy, but here is google maps for cell phones. Its not GPS but it works off cell towers to figure out about where you are.

http://www.google.com/mobile/gmm/index.html

Google maps seems to only apply for Stateside locations. I'm overseas. I'm not risking it I'm keepin my azz right here, I'll just get it done in Fl in 2 mos. Thanks guys for the support!

Turns out to be the plugs. All 8 fouled out. These are the original plugs too since last yr running rich from all get out. So I'm good to go but guess what? That's right.....the dyno shop owner is MIA. Can't catch a phockin break to save my gotdayumn life. :(

Turns out to be the plugs. All 8 fouled out. These are the original plugs too since last yr running rich from all get out. So I'm good to go but guess what? That's right.....the dyno shop owner is MIA. Can't catch a phockin break to save my gotdayumn life. :(

That sucks dude! I was just going to bring up to you to check the plugs :lol:

Here's a video of my car, and how pig fat it was running before my tune;
http://thumbs.vidiac.com/387c1a19-7fc0-4e38-8c91-993e00f67d00.jpg (http://videos.camaroz28.com/video/387c1a19-7fc0-4e38-8c91-993e00f67d00.htm)Click here to see Video (http://videos.camaroz28.com/video/387c1a19-7fc0-4e38-8c91-993e00f67d00.htm)

Well I took a chance and made it down there. 2 hr drive and filled up twice. 10.0 AFR and less the whole way down. Other than that not single issue. As for the dyno it didn't quite work out. Ed never came as he was tied up w/ another project so I had the owner of the shop try and take a stab at it. He tunes GT cars and F1 cars over here in Germany. We had to recalibrate the map and then once that was done we were off.

1st pull the car shut off @ 4K rpm's! That F1 moves so much air it snatched up my ignition wires of the ignition box! Almost shredded the belt too. It belted out 540rwtq from 2-4K rpm on a very conservative tune. We had to shut down as German law says you can't make noise after 8 pm. I'll go back and finish in 2 weeks.

Are you running an open head unit on the blower on the dyno???? That's stunning man. I bet you freaked when the car shut off though, didn't ya? Keep in there man, you're so close it's not even funny!!!

Silas, keep at it man. I agree with Sean, you are definatly close! Keep us up to date!!

Are you running an open head unit on the blower on the dyno???? That's stunning man. I bet you freaked when the car shut off though, didn't ya? Keep in there man, you're so close it's not even funny!!!

Sean I'm just running my custom 4" inlet hat and industrial strength dryer hose and filter. Hell yeah it was scary. The Bpv vents to the atmosphere...man that chit is wicked loud! Even inside the car w/ the windows up at 105 mph on the autobahn it sounds like an jet airliner. :D

Yes I am close.

In Panama City now...man this place is the sticks! LOL I remember it well as soon as I got off the airplane (I was here for training in 96). Oh and guess who sat next to me on the plane to Panama City. Karl C Rove. Dude is funny as hell and pretty cool. Idiots on board didn't even know who he was. I just walked up to him and was like excuse me Mr. Rove, I've got the window seat. Introduced myself and chatted away.

Oh and guess who sat next to me on the plane to Panama City. Karl C Rove. Dude is funny as hell and pretty cool. Idiots on board didn't even know who he was. I just walked up to him and was like excuse me Mr. Rove, I've got the window seat. Introduced myself and chatted away.

Dude! That's awesome!

So as close as you are on the car, do you think you're sticking with the F-1A or going to do the "other" FI component still? :D

Dude! That's awesome!

So as close as you are on the car, do you think you're sticking with the F-1A or going to do the "other" FI component still? :D

Come on Sean, he's this close of having it dialed in and now here you are trying to talk him into a whole new set up :lol:

Silas, ignore Sean and his blastfimous words of Turbo talk ;) Get the car dialed in and enjoy your 700+ RWHP :cool:

Fella's I'm staying S/C. I honestly don't know how in gods name I'm gonna use any of this power down here. 35 mph posted speed limits and I haven't seen an open stretch of road anywhere....now I just got here too and very unfamiliar w/ the area so we'll see. Not gonna lie turbo's are more practical in the U.S. as you can adjust it etc. hell they are even more suitable in Europe--for all out blasts w/ not a worry in sight regarding Polizei.

Since I clearly don't have belt issues I'll stick w/ the F1. I have seen some cool cars on the way to base which was a plus as it's rare to see anything in Germany unless you are out on Sundays at the track.

It feels weird being back esp getting use to the southern accent and run down infrastructure. We've been spoiled these past 8 yrs in Europe. :D

Fella's I'm staying S/C. I honestly don't know how in gods name I'm gonna use any of this power down here. 35 mph posted speed limits and I haven't seen an open stretch of road anywhere....now I just got here too and very unfamiliar w/ the area so we'll see. Not gonna lie turbo's are more practical in the U.S. as you can adjust it etc. hell they are even more suitable in Europe--for all out blasts w/ not a worry in sight regarding Polizei.

Since I clearly don't have belt issues I'll stick w/ the F1. I have seen some cool cars on the way to base which was a plus as it's rare to see anything in Germany unless you are out on Sundays at the track.

It feels weird being back esp getting use to the southern accent and run down infrastructure. We've been spoiled these past 8 yrs in Europe. :D


Ahh yes, the panhandle :leaving: There are at least a few stretches of road down there that go on and on with little to no traffic near Tyndal. I know because I have driven down some of them when I was TDY there for a couple of weeks and we began driving around just because we got bored.

I'm glad you are listening to reason and sticking with your pretty much complete supercharged setup. I'd have to drive over to Scott and smack Sean upside the head if he talked you into changing your pretty much completed SC setup that you have been finishing of for years with lots of time, money and hard work invested in all of it all to get rid of it all and put a Turbo in there.

Believe me I get frustrated a lot but rarely do I truely give up.

The Panhandle...what is there to say? Is it always this slow and quiet? It can always be a lot worse but man....this is a shock to the system! Way off topic but it's my thread. :D How do they even think they've got 1/2 million dollar homes w/ minimum wage employment?! I know others are bringing in their money from elsewhere but geez....... I've seen some nice neighborhoods literally next to the trailers. I ain't payin for that. If I didn't know any better this place is about to catch fire even though it has been a very slow process. It reminds me of Langley when it was small and kinda stick-ish but come mid to late 90's it blew the "F" up! Military town, w/ retires, college town, and decent employment. This is the only thing I see lacking here. But what do I know I've only been here 18 hrs. :D

You pretty much summed it all up accuratly in your first 18 hours there man. It's not all bad though, you're still in Florida, and the base is pretty decent.

Believe me I get frustrated a lot but rarely do I truely give up.

The Panhandle...what is there to say? Is it always this slow and quiet? It can always be a lot worse but man....this is a shock to the system! Way off topic but it's my thread. :D How do they even think they've got 1/2 million dollar homes w/ minimum wage employment?! I know others are bringing in their money from elsewhere but geez....... I've seen some nice neighborhoods literally next to the trailers. I ain't payin for that. If I didn't know any better this place is about to catch fire even though it has been a very slow process. It reminds me of Langley when it was small and kinda stick-ish but come mid to late 90's it blew the "F" up! Military town, w/ retires, college town, and decent employment. This is the only thing I see lacking here. But what do I know I've only been here 18 hrs. :D

You pretty much summed it all up accuratly in your first 18 hours there man. It's not all bad though, you're still in Florida, and the base is pretty decent.


True indeed. :D

It belted out 540rwtq from 2-4K rpm on a very conservative tune.

That much power at 4000 is amazing. The F1A really makes alot of boost down low and was the first thing I noticed when I upgraded from the P1SC. The P1SC made about 2 pds at 3000 whereas the F1A makes about 7 psi at 3000 with similar impellor rpms. The impellor is much more efficient on the F1A. I'm pulleying mine down because I can't find enough traction to justify all the power.:)

Silas-
Congrats on what you've been able to acomplish so far! Glad to here everything is working for you thus far. I think we're all waiting for your more complete dynotune. Good luck!!!

That much power at 4000 is amazing. The F1A really makes alot of boost down low and was the first thing I noticed when I upgraded from the P1SC. The P1SC made about 2 pds at 3000 whereas the F1A makes about 7 psi at 3000 with similar impellor rpms. The impellor is much more efficient on the F1A. I'm pulleying mine down because I can't find enough traction to justify all the power.:)
Actually I only have the F1 not the F1A. :D I'm pretty sure it'l put down more than that but time will only tell. I never did get to see how much boost it had got up to w/ the torque number either. Hopefully in the next 2 weeks I can get it completed but my time is short as we leave in June and I ship the car in May. Very tight schedule.
Silas-
Congrats on what you've been able to acomplish so far! Glad to here everything is working for you thus far. I think we're all waiting for your more complete dynotune. Good luck!!!
Thanks Boosted. It feels good to feel like I finally have accomplished something. I'll be sure to post the final results and video when ever this is. Hopefully sooner than later.

Silas,

Pic of simple ProChg idle arm stop. Mounted to 3/8 threaded rod used for water pump mount bolt. Extended length to mount stop. I found about a 1/8" to 1/16" gap is needed to allow the spring to work. The stop keeps the idler arm from large amplitude angular deflection swings when tight tide tension moves to top side of belt. Hope this helps. B>

http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn244/mzgp5x/proChg%20idle%20stop/?action=view&current=idle_stop2.jpg