GTR vs Z06 vs RS8 vs Porsche GT3

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Gotta love the acceleration competition where they cant run the quarter b/c the GTR is limited to 112mph. Still, its an impressive car to say the least.

I'm more anxious to see real world times....

I love the "reaction time" thing about the z06. So it's accelerating so hard that it's difficult to accurately hit exactly 100mph before hitting the brakes? Seems like they should be giving it a better time than 14 seconds. :think:

The GT3 lap time comparo though was great. Autocar did a set of runs with the GTR, M3, and GT3. The GTR edged out the GT3 by 3/10s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jotM3cKQQ

I honestly never thought that the C6 Z06 would meet its match in terms of performance for the dollar.

Sure there are cars that are faster that cost several times more, and there are cars that cost a little more or a little less than while slower have other subjective variables that can be argued in their favor like driver feedback, predictability, comfort, features, quality, ride, etc... but in all out performance for the buck I would have bet that the C6 Z06 would never see its match while it was still being sold as new.

Guess I was wrong.

I wonder if GM is planning to answer back with any changes to the Z06 before the C7 comes out? I mean I know there's the ZR1 but that's quite a way up the price scale.

Looking at the times, it looks like the GT-R pulls ahead at the start (which I would expect with AWD) and is ahead until about 73MPH, then the Z06 pulls away from there, so I don't see how the GT-R would win a quarter mile race.
All 4 cars are very impressive.

I doubt GM will change the Z06 much. I guess they could try to lighten things up a little more or switch out the LS7 for an LSA.

I saw the GTR in person finally. It isn't actually that bad looking in person. Congrats to Nissan.

I wonder if that Nissan troll is gonna be in this thread?

I doubt GM will change the Z06 much. I guess they could try to lighten things up a little more or switch out the LS7 for an LSA.

I was under the impression that 2008 was the last year for the LS7 in the Z06 and its it sucessor would be supercharged (???)

I saw the GTR in person finally. It isn't actually that bad looking in person. Congrats to Nissan.

I wonder if that Nissan troll is gonna be in this thread?

In certain colors it is a great looking car in person . The optional silver you have to pay for is nothing short of gorgeous .

I was under the impression that 2008 was the last year for the LS7 in the Z06 and its it sucessor would be supercharged (???)

Would make sense then. The CTS-V is supposed to get the LSA which is very similar to the LS9 but has a smaller 1.9liter supercharger vs the 2.3 liter on the LS9.
550 HP and 550 ft lb of Tq.

I wonder if GM is planning to answer back with any changes to the Z06 before the C7 comes out? I mean I know there's the ZR1 but that's quite a way up the price scale.

I doubt it. I honestly don't see a lot of potential Z06 buyers being turned away from the car by the GTR, and vice-versa. Similar performance, similar price -- but quite different cars and target markets IMO.

I honestly never thought that the C6 Z06 would meet its match in terms of performance for the dollar.They were within 2000 British Pounds in the comparison, but I would still like to see a window sticker with USD on it before we can see just how even it is.

Yall see the GT-R vs Z06 vs 911 Turbo article on Road&Track?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594

GT-R worked them both over on the road course, 5 seconds faster.

Lost out in the 1/4 mile, especially the MPH. Sounds to me like they couldn't drive the Z06 too well though for the road course test, shoulda been able to best the 911 me thinks...



BTW I'm thinking the black GT-R posted above looks pretty sweet. I've so far hated the other colors thanks to the large black grill (or whatever) area on the non-black GT-Rs.

I admire great cars. These are all great cars. Anyone would be happy with any car here.

But considering most of us are GM fans, I think it's a good result for a GM car to be included with the best breed of performance car.

I wonder what it would take to knock the GTR off it's perch, this side of a Porsche GT2?

"It pipped the ZO6 in a straight line"

:rolleyes:

To 100mph the ZO6 is .4 seconds faster and pulling hard only widening that gap. It sounds to me like they manipulated the "straight line" test to show the Nissan in the best light. It's an impressive car, but I love how they didn't do a standard acceleration test simply so it wouldn't lose. :|

You have to remember, it's a British mag. They have no car industry for good reason... they are inferior to every other race on the planet. :D

I admire great cars. These are all great cars. Anyone would be happy with any car here.

But considering most of us are GM fans, I think it's a good result for a GM car to be included with the best breed of performance car.

I wonder what it would take to knock the GTR off it's perch, this side of a Porsche GT2?

Probably a redesigned Z06..

You have to remember, it's a British mag.

I was just going to say the same thing.

By the way they act sometimes, you would have thought Napoleon was British.

Well, it clearly didn't win the acceleration war, even though they tried pretty hard to skew the facts ;). That's fancy accounting if I've ever seen it!! :D

The GT-R is 0.4 seconds behind the Z06 by 100 mph ..... run them to ~125 mph (approx. 1/4 mile speed) and the gap is going to be even larger. It's not surprising that the GT-R pulled so hard off the line (due to the AWD, and due to the fact that there's no clutch to have to worry about ... and we all know that drag-racing a standard is a lot harder than an automatic ;)).

I'm curious what effect proper, equal tires (ie: slicks) would have on all the cars :think: (both on the road course and drag race). In a straight line, I don't think the AWD would benefit nearly as much as the traction handi-capped RWD car, but around the road course? Who knows what would happen? :shrug:

Yes, it's very impressive what the GT-R can do, but I'm still not getting wood over it :rolleyes:.

I'd say we have a new bang for the buck champ.

where are the 1/4mi. times?

I'd say we have a new bang for the buck champ.
Considering the practicality and versatility of the AWD system (mainly, its all-weather capability) it's pretty tough to beat :shrug:.

i don't understand why they won't make the Z06 AWD...

i don't understand why they won't make the Z06 AWD...
because it would add 400 lbs.

heres some stuff from the road and track article...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_GTRZ06911_chart.pdf
there is the comparison chart

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_TechDetails.pdf
points breakdown

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_OnTrack.pdf
track breakdown

and for the lazy...
911 Z06 GT-R
0-60 3.4 3.4 3.4
0-120 11.5 10.7 12.7
1/4 11.7 11.7 11.8
trap 121.2 123.7 116.5
skidpad .99g .99g 1.01g
slalom 70.4 73.4 70.6
60-0 110 111 108
80-0 194 189 191
lap 2:02.1 2:02.2 1:56.9
mpg 17.2 17.5 17.5
Z06 GT-R 911
0–120 mph 10.7 12.7 11.5
0–110 mph 9.2 10.5 9.9
0–100 mph 8.0 8.6 7.9
0–90 mph 6.4 7.0 6.8
0–80 mph 5.3 5.7 5.6
0–70 mph 4.5 4.5 4.2
0–60 mph 3.4 3.4 3.4
0–50 mph 2.7 2.6 2.7
0–40 mph 2.2 1.8 1.5
0–30 mph 1.6 1.1 1.0
0–20 mph 0.9 0.7 0.6
0–10 mph 0.3 0.2 0.2

edit: damn you, code, for not working on this site and squishing all the data!

The article states strait up, no fancy wording, that if you subtract the reaction time the Z06 would have won the 0-100-0 test, so I dont see why everyone is so upset. I really dont see the article as being biased... what they state is true, the GTR is very impressive when you consider its weight and advertised power output.

When the Z06 came out everyone was jumping up and down over how impressive it was, and now its met its match, and people seem to be upset. Posts here remind me of what I read on Viper boards when owners had a hard time comign to grips with the fact that a Vette was running with their cars.

Nothing lasts forever. If you are a Vette fan you should be happy, as the bar has been raised for the next Z06.

What is going to be the US sticker for the Nissan? With the weakening dollar, I bet it comes out higher than the Z06.

The Nissan is a very impressive car, no doubt. As I've said in everyone of these posts. Time will tell.

Dan

What is going to be the US sticker for the Nissan? With the weakening dollar, I bet it comes out higher than the Z06.

Low 70s starting price. Who said a "new bang for the buck champion"... the Z06 is the same price, and offers more :rolleyes:

No top speed test? That's lame, and obvisouly biased. All the comparisons to date have been done to favor what the GTR offers. When you're comparing this caliber of car, a top speed test is mandatory. Except in the case where the American car out paces its competition by double digits.

What is going to be the US sticker for the Nissan? With the weakening dollar, I bet it comes out higher than the Z06.

Bingo. Maybe a lot higher. The dollar has lost 20% of its value relative to the yen since the announcement of this car. How would you feel about an $85,000 GT-R?

And . . . gotta reiterate: the performance may be impressive, but it *still* can't outrun the ugly.

What is going to be the US sticker for the Nissan? With the weakening dollar, I bet it comes out higher than the Z06.

Base price will be $69,850. z06 is $72,125.

Aggressive pricing on Nissan's part. They made sure it came in under the z06.

Base price will be $69,850. z06 is $72,125.

Aggressive pricing on Nissan's part. They made sure it came in under the z06.

We'll see. I have my doubts that they'll be able to price it that low.

Dan

We'll see. I have my doubts that they'll be able to price it that low.

Dan

That's not a number i just made up or an estimate...that's the official msrp from Nissan. Of course that's not accounting for dealership markups :D. I don't think anyone will be able to get a GTR for under 100k for a while.

We'll see. I have my doubts that they'll be able to price it that low.

Dan

There was talk that the R34 lost Nissan money on every single one sold.
When you next realize the development cost of the R35 - realize that they are limiting sales to numbers below the Z06, had no existing technology (like the Z06 had the C6 to start with) - and realize the carbon driveshafts, more sophisticated electronics, more expensive engine etc etc...

It comes to light that Nissan very well could intentionally lose money on each R35 sold for the image and bragging rights gained for releasing it at such a price point. And I cant blame them for any of it - its a ballsy thing to do.

Yes, it's possible. Smart? Not sure.

Dan

There was talk that the R34 lost Nissan money on every single one sold.
When you next realize the development cost of the R35 - realize that they are limiting sales to numbers below the Z06, had no existing technology (like the Z06 had the C6 to start with) - and realize the carbon driveshafts, more sophisticated electronics, more expensive engine etc etc...

It comes to light that Nissan very well could intentionally lose money on each R35 sold for the image and bragging rights gained for releasing it at such a price point. And I cant blame them for any of it - its a ballsy thing to do.

I'm 99% sure the chassis is heavily based off the next generation FM platform. I believe the G37 is also on this platform. The G35 and 350Z are on the last generation, and the 350Z will be transitioning come its refreshing... whenever that is.

This magazine cracks me up. I was bearly a paragraph into the article when they called the starter button on the Z06 "flimsy" for the GTR a "tactile delight". I decide to keep reading now for mere entertainment since it's obvious that the GTR will win on desire alone.
Then I read that the Z06 "feels absurdly muscular" sorry but these are performance cars not female body builders it's ok to have some muscle and power. Then they complain that the Z06 is accelerating too quickly at 100mph and their reaction time can't seem to catch up.
It gets better. The GTR's "DCT makes the heafy manual of the Corvette feel 200 years old". :D Well it should the computer does everything for you. Do they want to be seen as drivers or mearly and IT manager sitting behind the wheel?

If I was there I would have walked over and demanded the keys be given to someone who isn't intimidated by the cars power and not confused with what to do with the extra foot pedal.

Not shockingly they gave all the cars 5 stars except for the Z06. And if I read the chart correctly didn't the Z06 get to 100 first and then back to zero in a shorter total distance even with the botched raction time that put it's time .1 behind the GTR. Would that have not been worth an extra .5 Star at the end. :shrug:

The AWD of the GTR will make bad drivers look decent, but with professional drivers in both cars I would bet the gap around a track narrows a lot.

I also still wonder if the GTR is a little under rated horsepower wise? It seems to perform pretty well for all of the weight it is carrying. But that could be the AWD, and launch control helping a lot.

How well will it hold up under those super hard launches using the launch control. I thought in the edmunds test they were mentioning how violent it was.

Either way, congrats to Nissan they made a good performer.

I am looking forward to seeing one at a HPDE in the future.

I also still wonder if the GTR is a little under rated horsepower wise?


I'm pretty sure it's underrated. And i'd say it's probably underrated by more than just a little.

I'm pretty sure it's underrated. And i'd say it's probably underrated by more than just a little.

I thought I remember seeing a dynosheet somewhere of the new GT-R putting down 470hp at the wheels. If I am remembering correctly, than it is pretty damn underrated, and it would answer quite a few questions.

Not shockingly they gave all the cars 5 stars except for the Z06.

You're right, that could have been called before the magazine even tested the cars.

I honestly never thought that the C6 Z06 would meet its match in terms of performance for the dollar.

We'll have to wait and see what Nissan charges for it (and what they include in their warranty).

There was talk that the R34 lost Nissan money on every single one sold.
When you next realize the development cost of the R35 - realize that they are limiting sales to numbers below the Z06, had no existing technology (like the Z06 had the C6 to start with) - and realize the carbon driveshafts, more sophisticated electronics, more expensive engine etc etc...

It comes to light that Nissan very well could intentionally lose money on each R35 sold for the image and bragging rights gained for releasing it at such a price point. And I cant blame them for any of it - its a ballsy thing to do.
I didn't know that about the R34. Another example is the Veyron. Audi-VW lost a lot of money on each unit even though they were very expensive.

From the GTR forum.

"GTR:
Base ($69,850)
Floor Mats, iPod Interface ($70,490)
Floor Mats ($70,130)
Cold Weather Package, Floor Mats, iPod Interface ($70,490)
Cold Weather Package, Floor Mats ($70,130)

GTR Premium (Includes BOSE branded audio system, Heated Seats, Side & Curtain Air Bags):
Base ($71,900)
Floor Mats, iPod Interface ($72,540)
Floor Mats ($72,180)
Cold Weather Package, Floor Mats, iPod Interface ($72,540)
Cold Weather Package, Floor Mats ($72,180)


Color and Interior Trim Options:
Solid Red/Black Leather
Solid Red/Grey Leather
Ivory Pearl/Black Leather
Ivory Pearl/Grey Leather
Black Obsidian/Black Leather
Black Obsidian/Grey Leather
Super Silver/Black Leather Add $3,000
Super Silver/Grey Leather Add $3,000
Gun Metallic/Black Leather
Gun Metallic/Grey Leather
Titanium/Black Leather
Titanium/Grey Leather



*Winter Package contains: (no cost)
Dunlop All-season tires (wheel comes in silver rather than smoke gray)

Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $69,850 for the GT-R and $71,900 for the GT-R Premium model (exclusive of Destination & Handling). Customer deliveries of the new GT-R are scheduled to begin in June 2008."

does that mean the destination charge is extra? If so how much is that figuring to be?

A reaction time should not be part of the Elapsed Time (ET) for the vehicle performance test.

Simplistic NHRA stuff here. When the vehicle exits the beam at the start, it's this event that starts the ET timer, not how long someone is totally incognizant of that green light. This is really no different than it taking 4 tenths to stab the brakes. The other cars are accelerating at or very close to the same rate, but yet no mention of reaction time issues there.

Round these parts 4 tenths reaction is on the verge of coma or in the least heavy ....deep.... sleep. Get a new driver. Or if they were looking for ways to validate their intended outcome, they've succeeded.

I'm convinced that the GT-R has been heavily underrated by Nissan.

I'd also like to see the Z06 with more track-oriented tires like the GT-R has.

And I'm not sure why they're faulting the Z06 because of their lack of driving ability. If the car is accelerating too fast for you to react, then that's your problem, not the car's.

I'd also like to see the 1/4 mile results when the GT-R smacks into its 112 MPH speed limiter (not that it runs much faster anyway - R&T only hit 116 MPH with the limiter taken off).

It also strikes me that driving the GT-R isn't like driving a car. It's more like playing Gran Turismo - you don't need to be good at driving, you just need to let the computer do the work for you.

A reaction time should not be part of the Elapsed Time (ET) for the vehicle performance test.

They're talking about the time between when the vehicle hit 100mph and when the driver got on the brakes. There's no easy way to measure that time, and there's no easy way to subtract "extra" time spent accelerating beyond 100mph (or braking from the peak MPH down to 100).

Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $69,850 for the GT-R and $71,900 for the GT-R Premium model (exclusive of Destination & Handling). Customer deliveries of the new GT-R are scheduled to begin in June 2008."

does that mean the destination charge is extra? If so how much is that figuring to be?

Probably 600-900 bucks extra for destination.

Still, it's obvious this car is going to MSRP in the same price class as the Z06 which starts at 71,275 without destination or a single option.

The GT-R actually has a few things standard on it that the Z06 charges for - like nav.

So to me it looks like the GT-R, is if anything, slightly less expensive than the Z06 if you don't factor in inevitable dealer markups on the GT-R when it first comes out (and who knows for how long after that).

The AWD of the GTR will make bad drivers look decent, but with professional drivers in both cars I would bet the gap around a track narrows a lot.

Road&Track did such a comparison with a professional driver... somone posted it earlier, here's the quotes


Yall see the GT-R vs Z06 vs 911 Turbo article on Road&Track?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594

GT-R worked them both over on the road course, 5 seconds faster.


heres some stuff from the road and track article...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_GTRZ06911_chart.pdf
there is the comparison chart

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_TechDetails.pdf
points breakdown

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_OnTrack.pdf
track breakdown
edit: damn you, code, for not working on this site and squishing all the data!

A reaction time should not be part of the Elapsed Time (ET) for the vehicle performance test.

Simplistic NHRA stuff here...

So then, if the Z06 driver really botched the reaction time, and caused the Z06 to be way behind the GT-R, then the GT-R is a way better car? No, that only means that the Z06 driver sucked that much more.

We're not racing an NHRA race here, we're comparing cars, not drivers. The GT-R and the Z06 are so close they could've been sand-bagging the Z06 just to try and prove their point that the GT-R > * :rolleyes:

With a good driver behind the Z06, the Z06 may have edged it out. And besides...I'd like to see what the quarter mile times would be without the GT-R's speed limiter.

So then, if the Z06 driver really botched the reaction time, and caused the Z06 to be way behind the GT-R, then the GT-R is a way better car? No, that only means that the Z06 driver sucked that much more.

We're not racing an NHRA race here, we're comparing cars, not drivers. The GT-R and the Z06 are so close they could've been sand-bagging the Z06 just to try and prove their point that the GT-R > * :rolleyes:

With a good driver behind the Z06, the Z06 may have edged it out. And besides...I'd like to see what the quarter mile times would be without the GT-R's speed limiter.
To play devils advocate, the article stated they only did one trial with the GTR. Had they done more trials, perhaps they could have improved their time and made the Z06 look worse.

The Z06 is obviously faster in a straitline, I dont see why everyone is so upset. Its limited for traction, and has wider spaced gearing making the 0-100 times for the cars very close, but beyond that I don't think anyone questions that the Z06 will walk away. This isnt the first 0-100-0 test either, which I think people here are implying was done to hedge the GTR's outcome. Road and Track has done these tests before on other cars....

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=663&page_number=11
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/7162003125212.gif

Compare that with the 14.0 this magazine got for the Z06 and 13.9 for the GTR. Theyre both in good company. Quarter mile times are posted right above your post. Look at the Z06's trap speed vs. the GTR's. Its obviously a faster accelerating car. The et's are very close though.

I have been following the GTR since it became unveiled. When it comes to all around performance, I think its fairly safe to say the GTR outperforms the Z06. There is much more that goes into a performance car than a curb weight and horsepower rating...

On another note, hopefully this will also go to help quell people's fears that a heavier than 4th gen Camaro still has the potential to be an excellent performance machine. I think people here are a little to worried about a car's weight at times.

I have been following the GTR since it became unveiled. When it comes to all around performance, I think its fairly safe to say the GTR outperforms the Z06. There is much more that goes into a performance car than a curb weight and horsepower rating...

Like an underrated horsepower rating, sticky gumball tires, and an unhealthy amount of hype clouding the testers' minds?

Like an underrated horsepower rating, sticky gumball tires, and an unhealthy amount of hype clouding the testers' minds?
It very well could be underrated, but that doesnt make it any less impressive. LS1 F-bodies were underrated, does that discredit their Mustang busting numbers when they were making on ~50hp more than advertised? I dont think so.

As for tires, the car comes with what it comes with. If the tires are stickier than whats on the Vette, thats just life. GM could have put stickier tires on the Vette if they wanted to.

Hype? People were excited by what they expected to be a world class sports car at a "bargain price." Dual clutch transmission, advanced all wheel drive system, fancy twin turbo V6. This car has a lot of stuff packed into it that you are hard pressed to find somewhere else... To a lot of people, this car represents the pinnacle modern technology in an automobile.

I think the differences in the cars are what the author was trying to illustrate in the article. He uses vivid adjectives to state how the Vette is simple, big V8, v8noise, heavy acceleration and a big 6 speed shifter. It kind of reminds of why I like my Z28 so much... I don't think he's dissing the car, but just illustrating its raw character. Driving the GTR on the other hand seems more like piloting a futuristic vehicle of some sort teeming with buttons, different driving mode switches, launch control and a seamless dual clutch transmission. Just my $.02 though....

Regardless, the GTR is what it is.... may it be underrated, sticky tired, hyped up.... whatever you want to call it, it is what it is, and if it sticks to the price point that Nissan has announced, with the numbers it's putting up it is definately living up to the hype, and that can't be argued. :shrug:

Bottom line, as I see it. It IS an impressive car. AWD shows it's benefits. For my money, I would still take the Z06, without even a second thought. I am sure there are people who will say just the opposite. That's cool. Having incredibly performing machines at this price bracket is good, having competition to keep manufacturers on their toes is even better. FWIW however, I still think the GTR is ugly, amazing performer, but ugly. YMMV.

It very well could be underrated, but that doesnt make it any less impressive. LS1 F-bodies were underrated, does that discredit their Mustang busting numbers when they were making on ~50hp more than advertised? I dont think so.

Even with their underrated numbers, the LS1 F-bodies still had 40 more HP than the Mustang GT. It wasn't a surprise if they beat a GT. The GT-R, on the other hand, is advertised as having significantly less HP and torque than the Z06, and weighs far more, yet it almost equals the Z06 in acceleration. You can't say gearing comes into play, as the GT-R has a top speed of over 190 MPH (without the speed limiter), IIRC. The Z06 has a top speed of 198 MPH, so the GT-R is close. The AWD system can't account for the extra performance. Nissan underrated the car, plain and simple, and that has to be taken into account.

As for tires, the car comes with what it comes with. If the tires are stickier than whats on the Vette, thats just life. GM could have put stickier tires on the Vette if they wanted to.

Except that it's like comparing apples to oranges. How much better would the Z06 be with tires like the GT-R's? How much worse would the GT-R be with tires like the Z06's?

Just because the tire is what comes on the car doesn't mean it's a direct, fair comparison. The Lotus Exige S comes with Yokohama Advan A048s, a competition DOT tire. Would it be fair to compare its performance to a similar car with street tires? No.

Hype? People were excited by what they expected to be a world class sports car at a "bargain price." Dual clutch transmission, advanced all wheel drive system, fancy twin turbo V6. This car has a lot of stuff packed into it that you are hard pressed to find somewhere else... To a lot of people, this car represents the pinnacle modern technology in an automobile.

I think the differences in the cars are what the author was trying to illustrate in the article. He uses vivid adjectives to state how the Vette is simple, big V8, v8noise, heavy acceleration and a big 6 speed shifter. It kind of reminds of why I like my Z28 so much... I don't think he's dissing the car, but just illustrating its raw character. Driving the GTR on the other hand seems more like piloting a futuristic vehicle of some sort teeming with buttons, different driving mode switches, launch control and a seamless dual clutch transmission. Just my $.02 though....

Regardless, the GTR is what it is.... may it be underrated, sticky tired, hyped up.... whatever you want to call it, it is what it is, and if it sticks to the price point that Nissan has announced, with the numbers it's putting up it is definately living up to the hype, and that can't be argued. :shrug:

It can most certainly be argued, because once again, it won't be a direct comparison. If everything is equal, then the GT-R will have earned respect. If tests like this one continue, though, the GT-R will always be a "what if?" car.

Looking at the track graph it looks like they were really inconsistent with the Z06. I think this may be a driver issue.

I see a lot of bitterness in here about the GT-R living up to it's hype and outperforming our beloved Z06.

So what? The Z-0 had just the same amount of hype when it was announced, and I'm sure there were people on Porsche and Viper boards making the same arguments that people on here are of the tests not being equal, catering to the Vette.

The Z06 is not a new car anymore. When it comes to the quickly advancing world of supercars it's age is going to start to show after 3 years. There is always something bigger and better on the horizon...


...like the ZR-1 :D.

I see a lot of bitterness in here about the GT-R living up to it's hype and outperforming our beloved Z06.

So what? The Z-0 had just the same amount of hype when it was announced, and I'm sure there were people on Porsche and Viper boards making the same arguments that people on here are of the tests not being equal, catering to the Vette.

The Z06 is not a new car anymore. When it comes to the quickly advancing world of supercars it's age is going to start to show after 3 years. There is always something bigger and better on the horizon...


...like the ZR-1 :D.

The difference between the Z06 and the GT-R is that the Z06 wasn't underrated at all. It performed exactly as it was expected to.

The GT-R, on the other hand, is extremely underrated, giving the impression that it somehow is performing above and beyond what it should be capable of. Some people then try and use this as evidence of the GT-R being a superior car. In reality, all it shows is that this car is a huge ball of hype.

It's not bitterness. It's a desire for truth and cold hard facts. I have no problem if the GT-R outperforms the Corvette, as long as it's on equal footing and it's not under false pretenses.

The GT-R, on the other hand, is extremely underrated, giving the impression that it somehow is performing above and beyond what it should be capable of. Some people then try and use this as evidence of the GT-R being a superior car. In reality, all it shows is that this car is a huge ball of hype.

:yes: Whether or not it's living up to people's performance expectations is irrelevant. People look at the numbers. They see that it's heavier and that it has less horsepower. Then they look at the results, and they see that it won the race, and then they assume that some other criterion must have come into play. The car's magical high-tech gizmos or whatever.

Plain and simple: the GT-R makes significantly more horsepower than Nissan claims.

None of that detracts from the fact that Nissan has in fact raised the bar for performance per dollar.

:yes: Whether or not it's living up to people's performance expectations is irrelevant. People look at the numbers. They see that it's heavier and that it has less horsepower. Then they look at the results, and they see that it won the race, and then they assume that some other criterion must have come into play. The car's magical high-tech gizmos or whatever.

Plain and simple: the GT-R makes significantly more horsepower than Nissan claims.

None of that detracts from the fact that Nissan has in fact raised the bar for performance per dollar.
Agreed.

For those who can get past the weird styling, there will be a couple more tests of their devotions before they will be able to be happy with a GTR. One, reliability. The car's gee-whiz AWD system will be a weak link on real roads with bumps and potholes. Two, Nissan isn't exactly setting quality records (see http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2007088.pdf , shows their initial quality is below industry average and below Chevy, Buick, and GMC). Three, market prices will bid up the street price way above the sticker, kind of the Achilles Heel of under-rating a car in such a niche. So what seems like a great bargain won't be, once EBay and profit-maximizing dealers get done.

Still, the GTR is not a clear winner. The results are too dang close. Even the review says it's on equal terms with the Z06. I have a feeling that we will get reviews that go both ways on this one. They are extrememly competitive, which is way more than I thought I would be saying. Props to Nissan for having the balls to come out with a machine like this.

I'm still waiting to see what price they put on their website when you can actually buy one of these.

Dan

Still, the GTR is not a clear winner. The results are too dang close. Even the review says it's on equal terms with the Z06. I have a feeling that we will get reviews that go both ways on this one. They are extrememly competitive, which is way more than I thought I would be saying. Props to Nissan for having the balls to come out with a machine like this.

I'm still waiting to see what price they put on their website when you can actually buy one of these.

Dan
It does look like the Z06 has some real competition now. I was going to say "at its price point"... but hmm. Is the GTR artificially underpriced? I believe once the true HP numbers are out on the GTR, its real street price will be 80-90k at dealers. That puts it up in ZR1 territory... which after all will be its real competition. The ZR1 will lay waste to this car.

The car's gee-whiz AWD system will be a weak link on real roads with bumps and potholes.
It'll be interesting to see if you're right about that.

I was going to say "at its price point"... but hmm. Is the GTR artificially underpriced?
What does that even mean? The price is the price. Nissan has already published the MSRP for the GTR.

I believe once the true HP numbers are out on the GTR
They are. GT-Rs are putting down ~475hp to the wheels. Through an AWD system, it's pretty much impossible for that to translate to anything less than 550hp at the flywheel, and probably more like 580.

its real street price will be 80-90k at dealers.
That's a 12-22k markup. As with any new and novel car, that might be the case at first, but it won't last.

That puts it up in ZR1 territory... which after all will be its real competition. The ZR1 will lay waste to this car.
Why would you assume that the ZR1 won't see the same sort of markup that the GTR will? The ZR1's MSRP is predicted to be right around 100k, which is ~30k more than the GTR. Both cars are going to get marked up at first, and probably in a similar manner. Regardless of how much markup we see, a 30k price difference is not the same territory.

I wonder who will be the first private owner or aftermarket tuner to buy a wrecked GT-R and swap the engine into a 350Z? I'd be interested to see the results of that - ~550 HP, RWD, and if they can make it work, a real 6-speed manual.

What does that even mean? The price is the price. Nissan has already published the MSRP for the GTR.
It means what it says. True price is what the market will bear. MSRP is a SUGGESTED price, and it is often disregarded in the case of real dealers. I suspect Nissan knew the price would be bid up, and set it that low to be able to make a marketing claim that it was/is less than the Z06.
They are. GT-Rs are putting down ~475hp to the wheels. Through an AWD system, it's pretty much impossible for that to translate to anything less than 550hp at the flywheel, and probably more like 580.
The POINT there - was the ADVERTISED horsepower. Nissan, again, is playing marketing games with the car. Obviously it's putting out major power to the wheels. How else could a 3820 lb car post those track numbers? But 'Joe Average' is going to pay a lot of attention to the advertised numbers. Again, falls right in with Nissan's "we are magic" marketing ploy.
That's a 12-22k markup. As with any new and novel car, that might be the case at first, but it won't last.
I disagree. As long as the car's production is constrained (forever) and its big power is there (IE until CAFE and GG taxes catch up with it, maybe also forever), the car will be too big a bargain at the MSRP, and dealers will naturally add markup.
Why would you assume that the ZR1 won't see the same sort of markup that the GTR will? The ZR1's MSRP is predicted to be right around 100k, which is ~30k more than the GTR. Both cars are going to get marked up at first, and probably in a similar manner. Regardless of how much markup we see, a 30k price difference is not the same territory.
I'm not an expert on exotic car prices. So who knows, maybe the ZR1 will also command a premium. But $100k just seems to 'make sense' for a car of that power and caliber. Big markups on it, just don't make sense IMO. There is a certain 'pricing expectation' in people's minds about sports cars. $70k or so gets you a Z06. $100k, makes the ZR1 a good value. Much above that though, and it will not seem like a 'bargain' (which has been a motivator in the past for Z06 buyers). In contrast, the GTR will seem like 'too much' of a bargain at its MSRP, and will get bid up persistently.

It means what it says. True price is what the market will bear. MSRP is a SUGGESTED price, and it is often disregarded in the case of real dealers. I suspect Nissan knew the price would be bid up, and set it that low to be able to make a marketing claim that it was/is less than the Z06.

WHAT!? This is ridculous, and you're an idiot if you believe this. I'm 99.9% sure only the dealer will make profit on the amount charged beyond MSRP. Nissan doesn't get a penny for a dealer finding a way to overcharge.


The POINT there - was the ADVERTISED horsepower. Nissan, again, is playing marketing games with the car. Obviously it's putting out major power to the wheels. How else could a 3820 lb car post those track numbers? But 'Joe Average' is going to pay a lot of attention to the advertised numbers. Again, falls right in with Nissan's "we are magic" marketing ploy.
Man, you sure are a real conspiracy theorist. This link shows that its really *only* making ~480hp, just like the Porsche 911 TT.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=125172

One of the mag tests even show it only pulls a measily 116mph in the 1/4. This is right in line with 3800+lbs and 480hp.

LS3 vette does the same with ~50hp less, and oops, coincidence, 500lbs less! Oh crap, I just proved once again that the Nissan is not overrated!:D

Track tests in multiple magazines show that this car can run with, and in some instances, turn lower times, than a Z06. Why can't people just acknowledge that it may actually handle better than a Z06? Why can't people acknowledge that the Z06 suspension is not perfect, thus, doesn't handle perfect, and can be improved upon, resulting in quicker times? The GTR does that. . .and you know what? 10 years from now, it's possible that there'll be another GTR from Nissan, that is heavier, and actually handles better.

Geeez, I thought the Nissan and Import lovers were bad, but I think the GM fanboys are actually worse. On other message boards, Import guys actually give the Z06 props.

Mike
STI owner
Former LS1 owner, and GM fan

Greedy dealerships can put whatever price they want on the window. Heck, a million bucks for all it matters. Nissan built the car so it can be sold at this price point (under 70k). What the greedy dealerships charge is out of their control.

I'm sure once production ramps up and used examples hit the public, markups will either come down or disappear all together.

Some of these responses are getting silly. The GTR is an impressive car. It MAY even be a slightly better car than the Z06(based purely on track performance). SO WHAT. What these tests tell me is that the cars are within a fraction of a second of each other(acceleration, braking, etc.) and an AWD car handles better on a track(according to these test results). These results do NOTHING to change the underlying premise. American V8 muscle vs. Turbo 6 AWD peformance car. People are going to buy the car that best fulfills their dreams. I honestly do not see much cross shopping between the two makes. People who buy 70K cars are generally not asking which car has the most miniscule performance advantage. They are buying the car that they have idolized or desired for however long it took them to get to the point of being able to afford such a large financial transaction!

One last comment. It is well and good to have loyalty to a mark, just as it is cool to rail against unfair and biased testing procedures. But, to raise juvenille objections based on how delaers may or may not price a car above and beyond the MSRP (and I agree they most likely will), or to say that it is underrated in HP (which I am not sure about) is just assinine. This being said from someone who would hands down take the Z06. However, I also believe in tipping your cap when the competition matchs or one ups you.

I wonder who will be the first private owner or aftermarket tuner to buy a wrecked GT-R and swap the engine into a 350Z? I'd be interested to see the results of that - ~550 HP, RWD, and if they can make it work, a real 6-speed manual.

Knowing Nissan and their followers, I wouldn't doubt seeing that engine crammed in the front of a 240sx sometime soon.:D

I think the GTR will be able to push the corvette team to build an even better corvette. The same way the viper has been doing for years.

Some of these responses are getting silly. The GTR is an impressive car. It MAY even be a slightly better car than the Z06(based purely on track performance). SO WHAT. What these tests tell me is that the cars are within a fraction of a second of each other(acceleration, braking, etc.) and an AWD car handles better on a track(according to these test results). These results do NOTHING to change the underlying premise. American V8 muscle vs. Turbo 6 AWD peformance car. People are going to buy the car that best fulfills their dreams. I honestly do not see much cross shopping between the two makes. People who buy 70K cars are generally not asking which car has the most miniscule performance advantage. They are buying the car that they have idolized or desired for however long it took them to get to the point of being able to afford such a large financial transaction!

One last comment. It is well and good to have loyalty to a mark, just as it is cool to rail against unfair and biased testing procedures. But, to raise juvenille objections based on how delaers may or may not price a car above and beyond the MSRP (and I agree they most likely will), or to say that it is underrated in HP (which I am not sure about) is just assinine. This being said from someone who would hands down take the Z06. However, I also believe in tipping your cap when the competition matchs or one ups you.

That about sums it up. :thumb:

Dan

Some of these responses are getting silly. The GTR is an impressive car. It MAY even be a slightly better car than the Z06(based purely on track performance). SO WHAT. What these tests tell me is that the cars are within a fraction of a second of each other(acceleration, braking, etc.) and an AWD car handles better on a track(according to these test results). These results do NOTHING to change the underlying premise. American V8 muscle vs. Turbo 6 AWD peformance car. People are going to buy the car that best fulfills their dreams. I honestly do not see much cross shopping between the two makes. People who buy 70K cars are generally not asking which car has the most miniscule performance advantage. They are buying the car that they have idolized or desired for however long it took them to get to the point of being able to afford such a large financial transaction!

One last comment. It is well and good to have loyalty to a mark, just as it is cool to rail against unfair and biased testing procedures. But, to raise juvenille objections based on how delaers may or may not price a car above and beyond the MSRP (and I agree they most likely will), or to say that it is underrated in HP (which I am not sure about) is just assinine. This being said from someone who would hands down take the Z06. However, I also believe in tipping your cap when the competition matchs or one ups you.


I agree.

Except I'd take the GT-R.



but only in it's second year.

and only after seeing what the aftermarket can do with it.
:)

One of the mag tests even show it only pulls a measily 116mph in the 1/4. This is right in line with 3800+lbs and 480hp.
:think: One magazine can't get a good trap speed. Yep, go ahead and draw whatever conclusions you want from that. :rolleyes:

As for your dyno video, that's a Mustang dyno. They read lower than DynoJets (which are far more common, and are therefore the source for the kind of numbers we're all familiar with around here). I stand by my statement that the GT-R has no less than 550bhp, and probably closer to 580.

to say that it is underrated in HP (which I am not sure about) is just assinine.
Asinine? It's obvious that the GT-R is underrated. The rating itself has no effect on my opinion of the car or my respect for its performance (and it shouldn't have such an effect on any rational person).

The problem I have is that there are plenty of people who don't realize that some cars have more than the advertised power. They think the rating is factual and unquestionable. They therefore assume that there's something "magic" about the GT-R that makes it outperform these other cars, despite a clear disadvantage in power-to-weight ratio (going by the numbers). I roll my eyes at those people, and I roll my eyes at Nissan's marketing people (or whoever decided to underrate the car) for deliberately confusing their enthusiasts.

:think: One magazine can't get a good trap speed. Yep, go ahead and draw whatever conclusions you want from that. :rolleyes:

As for your dyno video, that's a Mustang dyno. They read lower than DynoJets (which are far more common, and are therefore the source for the kind of numbers we're all familiar with around here). I stand by my statement that the GT-R has no less than 550bhp, and probably closer to 580.


Asinine? It's obvious that the GT-R is underrated. The rating itself has no effect on my opinion of the car or my respect for its performance (and it shouldn't have such an effect on any rational person).

The problem I have is that there are plenty of people who don't realize that some cars have more than the advertised power. They think the rating is factual and unquestionable. They therefore assume that there's something "magic" about the GT-R that makes it outperform these other cars, despite a clear disadvantage in power-to-weight ratio (going by the numbers). I roll my eyes at those people, and I roll my eyes at Nissan's marketing people (or whoever decided to underrate the car) for deliberately confusing their enthusiasts.

No, you misunderstood me. I have no idea whether or not the car is underrated, nor do I care. My point is irregardless of it being underrated or not, it is a serious performance car. Making excuses (not you, just in general) that it is underrated makes no difference in the abilities of the car, nor does it invalidate the value/performance of the Z06. They are different means to the same end. Each has it's advantage, each has it's own unique character. The assinine commet is referring to using the fact that the GTR is underrated (again if it is, and I believe it might be) to try and lessen the value/performance of the GTR. Likewise, whether or not the GTR is a loss leader is irrelevant. The car does what it does, for the price that it is, and it is worthy of respect (even if I personally do not care for it).

No, you misunderstood me.
Got it now; thanks for clarifying. :)

I have no idea whether or not the car is underrated

You seriously have no idea? Have you been reading my posts?

It's underrated. Probably by close to 100hp.

Got it now; thanks for clarifying. :)



You seriously have no idea? Have you been reading my posts?

It's underrated. Probably by close to 100hp.

I for one am not convinced the car is underrated power wise. Based on the 116mph trap the magazine got, and the dyno's that Edmunds conducted, the power looks about inline with what its rated at. With the car having a built in launch control and a sequential transmission, I think it would be hard to blame the driver for only trapping 116. The similarly powered 911 Turbo trapped 5mph faster, weighing ~200lbs less.

Are people gonan claim that the Porsche is underrated as well?

Then the fact that Edmunds got 450 on the dynapack dyno... compared with 480 that some private shop posted online a while back... I'm not sure what the average tolerance is with dynos, but those numbers are within 7% of one another...

When they compared the Mustang dyno numbers to that of a 911 Turbo they got this...
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//media/il/features/general/09.nissan.gtr.dyno/gtrv997tharman.500.jpg

I guess we'll have to wait for more cars to be tested to get more numbers, but I'd be more inclined to believe the GTR was underratedif it was trapping 125mph. 116mph really isnt that fast... a regular C6 Vette could probably drag one on the highway. With the Posche trapping 121, I actually would expect the GTR to be capable of a bit more mph than it did...

I am just not seeing any conclusive evidence that the car is engine is underrated.

it would be interesting if Nissan got this engine SAE certified...

AWD cars are known for having lower trap speeds than similar RWD cars, are they not? The GT-R's 116 MPH trap speed doesn't surprise me at all.

Then the fact that Edmunds got 450 on the dynapack dyno...
Unless I misread the Edmunds test, they used a Mustang dyno.

When they compared the Mustang dyno numbers to that of a 911 Turbo they got this...
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//media/il/features/general/09.nissan.gtr.dyno/gtrv997tharman.500.jpg

I believe I've heard that the 2007 911 Turbo (which trapped 122 when Car and Driver tested it) is underrated as well. :)

The give the Z06 an extra second in the 0-100-0 test? Give me a break.

They're afraid to run the GTR down the drag strip out of fear of breaking something? :lol:

They didn't want to remove the 112 MPH limiter? What's the point of testing 'supercars' that can't go over 112 MPH?

They should have done 0-150-0. These kind of cars just getting warmed up at the 100 MPH mark.

"Alright, it's a cold day, lets run these cars to some silly point such as 60 or 100 MPH where the performance isn't worth measuring, when these cars are capable of hitting nearly 200 MPH. It'll give the heavy, AWD car a chance to compete."

What the hell is the Audi even doing in this test? It's not even on the same playing field as the other cars.

Also, British automotive publications are a bunch of wankers.

They should have done 0-150-0. These kind of cars just getting warmed up at the 100 MPH mark.

The GT-R wouldn't have been able to do that test. :lol:

Usually cars that hook up better at launch trap lower than ones that spin the tires a bit.
Ex. someone on street tires can run 13.2 with a 2.2 60ft and 110 mph trap. Or they can put on DR's and run 12.8 with a 1.8 60 ft but only 108mph trap speed.

Trap speed is also an indication of overall hp and obviously one with more power would trap higher speeds even after it's adjusted for wheel spin.

Just from the numbers given in this test the GTR hooks hard and moves out quicker than the Z06. The Z06 has more power and a better power/weight ratio and so once traction is reached and the car will accelerate faster than the GTR.

So for the bench racers the GTR would probably win the stoplight battle and the Z06 would own the upper mph roll races. But on the street with different tires and road conditions all bets are off.

Unless I misread the Edmunds test, they used a Mustang dyno.



I believe I've heard that the 2007 911 Turbo (which trapped 122 when Car and Driver tested it) is underrated as well. :)

They did 2 dyno tests in the Edmunds article... one on a Mustang dyno and one on a dynapack.

I'd be pretty surprised if both the Porsche and the GTR are underrated... by pretty much the same amount at that.

I'd be pretty surprised if both the Porsche and the GTR are underrated... by pretty much the same amount at that.

Why? The entire point of the GTR's existence is to show that Nissan can beat Porsche at their own game. The 911 Turbo has been the Skyline's performance target for decades. So why shouldn't it be similarly underrated?

Why? The entire point of the GTR's existence is to show that Nissan can beat Porsche at their own game. The 911 Turbo has been the Skyline's performance target for decades. So why shouldn't it be similarly underrated?
Sounds like an automotive conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. "Porsche underrates their cars, so we will to..."

Who knows, you may be right... I could honestly care less. Like I said a few posts back, the car is what it is, and it performs well. If it actually gives you 550hp, great, its even more bang for the buck than advertised. If its putting out whats advertised, great, the car is putting down its power very effectively.

Sounds like an automotive conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. "Porsche underrates their cars, so we will to..."

Who knows, you may be right... I could honestly care less. Like I said a few posts back, the car is what it is, and it performs well. If it actually gives you 550hp, great, its even more bang for the buck than advertised. If its putting out whats advertised, great, the car is putting down its power very effectively.


Could not agree more! Well said. Wonder if GM will make the z06 with the ls8 in response?

Sounds like an automotive conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. "Porsche underrates their cars, so we will to..."
It's not a conspiracy theory on my part (although I agree that it sounds like one). I'm just saying that Nissan targeted the 911 Turbo for everything with the GTR, so why not this too?

If it actually gives you 550hp, great, its even more bang for the buck than advertised.
:yes:

If its putting out whats advertised, great, the car is putting down its power very effectively.
:no: This is impossible. The GTR's drivetrain would have to be adding horsepower.

Could not agree more! Well said. Wonder if GM will make the z06 with the ls8 in response?
I really doubt that. GM already has a supercharged Corvette with the ZR1.

I wouldn't discount it just yet. The LS7 is expensive to build.

Props to the car. I'd like to see if anyone can run a 10.8 @ 129 with a stock one though. ;)

Props to the car. I'd like to see if anyone can run a 10.8 @ 129 with a stock one though. ;)

I doubt you'll ever see someone run faster than 11.5@117 with a stock one. Slicks will hardly make a difference, due to AWD, and the computer nanny pretty much negates any skill involved. Remember there's no clutch, and no speed shifting. Just hit the gas and tap the shifter forward.

i don't understand why they won't make the Z06 AWD...

And why does everything have to be AWD?

It doesn't, nor, IMO, should it be. The Corvette is a uniquely American sports car, seems to me it has done pretty damn good sticking to it's V-8, rear drive roots.:bow:

The one in MT just ran an 11.5@124mph. 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. This with a car weighing a little less than 2tons. Impressive for only having 480 horses:think:. But this was a pre-production test mule though.

I hope they do underrate it. Makes it that more appealing. More is always better :D.

Hmm, imagine an AWD ZR1...

It would weigh 3800 pounds, at least...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1477340

Props to the car. I'd like to see if anyone can run a 10.8 @ 129 with a stock one though. ;)

That might be possible. But I don't see anyone with a ZR1 trailering a GTR down the track anytime soon :p

I certainly appreciate the performance/bang for the buck that the Nissan offers. I'd still take the Z06 though as it would be a better fit for what I'd use it for. It'd make a great bracket car with some drag radials on the back. I'd imagine it's much more durable than the Nissan in that enviroment. Give me the Z06 please.:)

Props to the car. I'd like to see if anyone can run a 10.8 @ 129 with a stock one though. ;)

That was on drag radials, and I'll bet that a 10.8 is doable on the Nissan with drag radials as well. I don't think it would trap 129 though.

I certainly appreciate the performance/bang for the buck that the Nissan offers. I'd still take the Z06 though as it would be a better fit for what I'd use it for. It'd make a great bracket car with some drag radials on the back. I'd imagine it's much more durable than the Nissan in that enviroment. Give me the Z06 please.:)
if you want a bracket car why would you choose the rwd manual car? this makes no sense.

if you want a bracket car why would you choose the rwd manual car? this makes no sense.
I've always raced manual cars. Quite frequently i make no sense.:)At least that's what my wife says.

They claim 430 wheel HP on a Dynojet...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2009_nissan_gt_r_dyno_test/results_analysis.html

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1240/112080303z2009nissangtrxb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

yeah thats a little underrated

That was on drag radials, and I'll bet that a 10.8 is doable on the Nissan with drag radials as well. I don't think it would trap 129 though.

Erm...Tens on runflats FTW?

http://www.corvetteblog.com/archives/corvette-performance-stock-corvette-z06-has-10-second-14-mile.html

And the GTR will hardly notice drag radials, you can't control launch RPM so you can't drop it from a higher RPM since your on DR's. I doubt the car does more than bark a tire in "Launch Control" mode. 3800lbs+AWD...

Durability is definitely up there to question, considering what I've read about the trans tunnel getting very hot after a few launches in "Launch Control" mode...

But it is still a badass-handling car. The numbers it has put up are amazing.