Price Gouging.... Pontiac dealers are at it again!

Been getting calls from Serremonte Ford about a '03 Mach 1 they got in on trade (was willing to sell it for $13K!!), so I went down to take a look at it. While I was there, I got a chance to check out the new Mustang Bullitt. Nice car, and had a $1995 markup.

Fair enough. There's going to be less than 10K made, it's going to be rare. It's one of the first ones in the area, so I can see the markup.

Then I drift down the street to the Pontiac dealer to check on the G8 they recently got in.

Beautiful black G8-GT. Base car, only a couple of options....

.....and a $5000 markup!!!!! :shock: :eek:

Here a Ford dealer is, selling a very limited edition Mustang that's no doubt going to be in high demand that has a MSRP almost identical to the G8-GT I looked at. That G8-GT is a regular production car, likely selling 4-6 times the quanity of the Bullitt Mustang. Both vehicles were the only ones on the lot and the 1st ones in. But the Pontiac dealer is selling that G8 for $36,000!!!

Here we go....... GTO part 2. :mad:

grrr... Guess I wont buy one then.

They're out already?

Guess I will have to wait for the $6k rebate on the G8 like they had on the GTO's in Dec of '04.

Even when GM gets the great cars they need, the dealers come out to spoil the party.

Just another reason to lose Pontiac.

Just another reason to lose Pontiac.

Their dealers do seem intent on killing themselves.....

I remember when the new GTO first came out... I was really seriously considering getting one as I was shopping for something new. The guy acted like he was doing me a favor by quoting me a lease payment of $600-something a month with 4000 dollars down.

:lol:

I don't really know how much markup that equated to but I remember less than a year later seeing the same dealer offering $350/month leases with zero down to push them out the door. I just thought how funny it was... their attitude went from a cocky 'pay out the nose for the privilege' to a desperate 'we will more or less pay you to get this car off our lot'.
It seems like the dealerships that aren't used to having hot sellers are the ones that can't help but try and screw their customers for a chunk of profit every time they think they even MIGHT have the chance - all the while alienating them.

Dealerships that are used to cars selling out the first few months they have them coming in have realized by now that the best practice is to generally deny mark-downs but not try and tack-on mark-ups... that's a good happy medium for keeping people happy.

There's no question in my mind that these G8s will be going for near invoice price, minus an additional $1000-2000 rebate and/or 0% financing in a year or so... so why bother pissing everyone off now, pontiac dealers??

I remember when the new GTO first came out... I was really seriously considering getting one as I was shopping for something new. The guy acted like he was doing me a favor by quoting me a lease payment of $600-something a month with 4000 dollars down.


People who leased at the right time got leases as low as $125-mo for 2 years with 0 down. At least that is what was claimed on the ls1gto.com message boards.

They're out already?

I saw one nearly a month ago, but I suspect it was a press car being wrung out by a car mag (happens alot up this way). But it seems the've been out for at least a few weeks now.

Everybody I've spoken with who've locked one up already paid MSRP. Maybe it's just California at it again with their usual weirdness. :shrug:

Nope. It's the dealership. One of those Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealers.

As you said.... those "who've locked one up (in advance...before they hit the showroom) already paid MSRP".

Going onto a dealership to buy one is an entirely different bird.

I'll check San Francisco's GM dealer and another one later.

I saw one nearly a month ago, but I suspect it was a press car being wrung out by a car mag (happens alot up this way). But it seems the've been out for at least a few weeks now.


Cool, I'll have to swing by the local dealer to see if they have one. :)

I remember the GTO dealers wouldn't let me test drive one, lol!!

I was like Dude, I can handle it lol. The car I race every weekend will chew that pig up..

Go to another dealership. Someone will sell it @ MSRP.

If at the end of the year I can get one for what the 06 GTO's sold for...:think:

I can see them being marked up. There are very few V8's made for 08 (less than 1000 I believe)...and the launch has been slow as hell IMO. Simple supply and demand...business charge what people are willing to pay. When new Corvettes come out, they always have markups. I very nearly paid a $1500 mark up to get a G8 last week to get a G8 because I had the "I want's", but I backed off because it was white and had no sunroof.

The 04 GTO was the only year GTO to have major markups...and it show sales can be attributed to other things besides the markups. For instance the improper exhaust and lack of hood scoops, or the improper allocation of the cars to northern states. Even once GM threw 5K in rebates on the 04, it still did not light the world on fire. I will always stand by the idea that if GM had waited 8 months or whatever, skipped the 04 GTO, and released what became the 05 from the getgo, the car would have a much different rep.

That being said..the way to fix it would be build up an assload in a holding lot and flood them to dealers all at once.

:mad:

I know some people fall for this kind of S***. But who in there right mind would willingly pay 5K over Sticker.

The pontiac dealer up the road from me went out of business.

I don't know what they did with GTO's, but when the solstice came out, they had a silver one sitting out front for MONTHS. Presumably, with a markup, as they were hard to find elsewhere.

Thats pretty sad ....come buy one up here . There local dealers I spoke with wont be adding a "market adjustment" ....and one them was only alotted 3 G8's for all of 2008 . Even though they sold a ton of unmarked up GTO's .

and we didnt think this was going to happen...

Easy to mark up the G8 compared to the Bullitt,

"Sir, its got IRS and 365hp compared to SRA and 315hp, for 3k more you get a sophisitcated suspension, not like that buggy cart Ford sells, and you get 50 more horsepower to boot by one of the best damn engines in the business, with more sophisitcation and power, its gonna be running circles around the best Ford's got with alot better ride! I'd also like to point out the more modern and fresh styling on the G8 as well, compared to the recylced appearence of the Mustang, in short a great car with a great suspension, great styling and great power."

or thats how I'd sell it


--->edited a bit for clarity<---

"Easy to mark up the G8 compared to the Bullitt, its got IRS and 365hp compared to SRA and 315hp, for 3k more you get a sophisitcated suspension, not like that buggy cart Ford sells, and you get 50 more horsepower to boot by one of the best damn engines in the business, with more sophisitcation and power, its gonna be running circles around the best Ford's got with alot better ride! I'd also like to point out the more modern and fresh styling on the G8 as well, compared to the recylced appearence of the Mustang, in short a great car with a great suspension, great styling and great power."

The again, G8 is not really limited production and doesn't have 45 years of heritage behind it.

True, heritage can count for alot, but I think that might come into play before somebody hit the lot, then again if heritage came into the course of the sell, I think I might try to make the case Ford took it a bit too seriously with the style and rear suspension.

Anyways playing devil's advocate, given M's info on the Bullitt and G8, it boils down to a 3k difference, however if it were just a GT Mustang, it would probably make it a bit harder since the gap would be wider.

Ultimately ADMs suck, I wish the manufacturers could really get a handle on them, when I got my GT I'll never forget the **** eating grin one of the salesman had when I asked about the price of a Shelby, normally I dont say to much, but that grin pretty much forced my "Heh, try and sell them for 65k when the Challenger and F5 show up".

Easy to mark up the G8 compared to the Bullitt,

"Sir, its got IRS and 365hp compared to SRA and 315hp, for 3k more you get a sophisitcated suspension, not like that buggy cart Ford sells, and you get 50 more horsepower to boot by one of the best damn engines in the business, with more sophisitcation and power, its gonna be running circles around the best Ford's got with alot better ride! I'd also like to point out the more modern and fresh styling on the G8 as well, compared to the recylced appearence of the Mustang, in short a great car with a great suspension, great styling and great power."

or thats how I'd sell it

If only it were that easy and simple. Reality is that the g8 won't be "running circles" around the Bullitt (G8 has more hp but more weight), and the mustangs styling while recycled is for the most part liked and adored by the general public. And as z28wilson mentioned, the history, cult-following and naming isn't there with the G8. Clearly the G8 is the superior car, but that doesn't mean it'll be as embraced by the general public compared to the Mustang/Bullitt.

That and i really wouldn't be cross-shopping the G8 with the Bullitt. Maybe a G37/IS350/335i. Compared to them it's still a pretty good value even with the markups.

Been getting calls from Serremonte Ford about a '03 Mach 1 they got in on trade (was willing to sell it for $13K!!), so I went down to take a look at it. While I was there, I got a chance to check out the new Mustang Bullitt. Nice car, and had a $1995 markup.

Fair enough. There's going to be less than 10K made, it's going to be rare. It's one of the first ones in the area, so I can see the markup.

Then I drift down the street to the Pontiac dealer to check on the G8 they recently got in.

Beautiful black G8-GT. Base car, only a couple of options....

.....and a $5000 markup!!!!! :shock: :eek:

Here a Ford dealer is, selling a very limited edition Mustang that's no doubt going to be in high demand that has a MSRP almost identical to the G8-GT I looked at. That G8-GT is a regular production car, likely selling 4-6 times the quanity of the Bullitt Mustang. Both vehicles were the only ones on the lot and the 1st ones in. But the Pontiac dealer is selling that G8 for $36,000!!!

Here we go....... GTO part 2. :mad:

The additional dealer markup sticker is meaningless. The real question is what they'd sell it for. I bet that if you offered MSRP, they'd take it in a second.

or...you could walk in and say...

"Didn't learn your lesson from GTO did you?" and walk out.

The additional dealer markup sticker is meaningless. The real question is what they'd sell it for. I bet that if you offered MSRP, they'd take it in a second.

MSRP (Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price) is meaningless too. How much you want a particular car is going to determine what you pay for it. Dealers obviously mark the cars up because (A) they feel some sucker will pay that much (B) they have a very limited inventory of that car. Most people in the know who buy cars work their way up from invoice price (some even go under invoice), not down from MSRP. The answer is if you go to a dealer and they won't work with you on price, go to another dealer.
Hell, when I bought my TA used, I couldn't work the price of the car to what I wanted at the dealership it was at. I went to another dealership owned by the same guy and told them I wanted to buy the TA that was at that other dealer.....so dealership B bought the car from dealership A, so they could sell me the TA. Just because one dealer won't work with you doesn't mean another one won't.

People who leased at the right time got leases as low as $125-mo for 2 years with 0 down. At least that is what was claimed on the ls1gto.com message boards.

That is so mathematically impossible, it isn't even funny. There is absolutely no way in hell a car that expensive, with a normal residual, can be leased for anywhere near that. Especially for only 2 years! Even a 4 year lease would probably be double that on a car that expensive...even selling it for dealer net!

With that said, if a dealer knows its only getting a couple for '08, maybe this is their justification. I wouldn't pay over MSRP for anything...but if its a hot product, MSRP is not an insult. Go to a Honda or Toyota dealer and see what they offer off a sticker...people will pay whatever the sticker says, more or less, while domestics are routinely offered $2,000 under invoice AFTER giving customers the rebates...

Ask me how I know :mad:

Exactly. It's worth what someone will pay for it. Personally, I think the G8 is worth MSRP; that is, they priced it right to begin with (relative to what else is out there, at least). It's so much more car than a equal-priced Grand Prix, it's a relative bargain.

FWIW, In Sept. 2004 I did a SmartBuy on a 2004 GTO: $256/month 24-months with 0 down. I had GM MasterCard money, plus "round-up" money, plus the "normal" $5,000 incentive.

IF I buy a 5th gen, and I'm dumb enough to buy one the first year they're out, I expect to pay MSRP, even calling in a favor to one of the fellow 9 Chevy dealers within a 1 hr radius of my house...I will NOT pay a penny over MSRP however.

In reality, lets be honest though...I'll be buying a 1 year old one at the auction 2 years after debut for $10k behind MSRP :D The joys of being a dealer with auction access :D

MSRP is over priced anyways, lol. A day later its worth 4-grand less at the least....

That is so mathematically impossible, it isn't even funny. There is absolutely no way in hell a car that expensive, with a normal residual, can be leased for anywhere near that. Especially for only 2 years! Even a 4 year lease would probably be double that on a car that expensive...even selling it for dealer net!



Here's a thread with a few people getting them for that. One was $70-mo. Of course this is the internet so who knows how valid it is.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13412&highlight=lease+agreement

Here's a thread with a few people getting them for that. One was $70-mo. Of course this is the internet so who knows how valid it is.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13412&highlight=lease+agreement

That is complete crap. You can't get a Kia for $70/month how could someone believe someone got a GTO for that?

That is complete crap. You can't get a Kia for $70/month how could someone believe someone got a GTO for that?

Did you read the thread? He used a rebate, the December incentive, points saved up on his GM card, employee/family discount, loyalty discount, and a prepay discount. He leased an '04 GTO at the beginning of '05, so they probably had it discounted to get it off the lot anyway.

Apply all of those discounts to a Kia and they'd be paying you to take it. :)

Did you read the thread? He used a rebate, the December incentive, points saved up on his GM card, employee/family discount, loyalty discount, and a prepay discount. He leased an '04 GTO at the beginning of '05, so they probably had it discounted to get it off the lot anyway.

Apply all of those discounts to a Kia and they'd be paying you to take it. :)

No I didn't read the thread but come on how is the dealer making ANY money on $70 a month on ANY car?

No I didn't read the thread but come on how is the dealer making ANY money on $70 a month on ANY car?

Just because the buyer is only paying $70/month doesn't mean that's all the dealer is getting. At the very least, some money comes from GMAC to compensate for the points on the GM credit card. I'm not sure who backs the incentives or the family discount or anything, but I'm assuming most of that isn't backed by the dealer either.

Been getting calls from Serremonte Ford about a '03 Mach 1 they got in on trade (was willing to sell it for $13K!!), so I went down to take a look at it. While I was there, I got a chance to check out the new Mustang Bullitt. Nice car, and had a $1995 markup.

Fair enough. There's going to be less than 10K made, it's going to be rare. It's one of the first ones in the area, so I can see the markup.

Then I drift down the street to the Pontiac dealer to check on the G8 they recently got in.

Beautiful black G8-GT. Base car, only a couple of options....

.....and a $5000 markup!!!!! :shock: :eek:

Here a Ford dealer is, selling a very limited edition Mustang that's no doubt going to be in high demand that has a MSRP almost identical to the G8-GT I looked at. That G8-GT is a regular production car, likely selling 4-6 times the quanity of the Bullitt Mustang. Both vehicles were the only ones on the lot and the 1st ones in. But the Pontiac dealer is selling that G8 for $36,000!!!

Here we go....... GTO part 2. :mad:

Was the Mach 1 White with a 5-spd?
If so, I'll head your way for a weekend trip! ;)

I posted in another thread about a USED GT500 at Parkway Ford that had 7xxx miles on it and was STILL being "adjusted for market" by $5000. I could not believe that. Dealer rape on a USED CAR!!!

I am simply against these dealers making pure rape-money on cars they did not sell, transport, or do a d@mn-thing to bring to you. :mad:

My 2 year lease on an 04 GTO was $279/month with nothing down. I put down a couple grand to get it to $199/mo. That was in June of 04, and I heard they got cheaper as the 05s started showing up that fall. Residual was crazy-like $21700. I remember it booking for $19,000 wholesale when I returned it in June of 06.
I see some dealers are offering a one time payment for a 2 year lease. If you have enough up front money, the monthly payment will disappear.
New Ford Shelby GT500s can be found for sticker if you look hard enough, not the 540hp KRs though.

If only it were that easy and simple. Reality is that the g8 won't be "running circles" around the Bullitt (G8 has more hp but more weight), and the mustangs styling while recycled is for the most part liked and adored by the general public. And as z28wilson mentioned, the history, cult-following and naming isn't there with the G8. Clearly the G8 is the superior car, but that doesn't mean it'll be as embraced by the general public compared to the Mustang/Bullitt.

That and i really wouldn't be cross-shopping the G8 with the Bullitt. Maybe a G37/IS350/335i. Compared to them it's still a pretty good value even with the markups.

Well perception is reality, and when it comes to cars, the truth is fluid except to a very few. I know the Mustang is a pretty good car, but I'm willing to bet that the folks coming into a Pontiac dealership dont have practical experience with a S-197 Mustang (unless they are there to trade it in, but you'd have to switch tactics and pry the what and the why out of thier Mustang mis-givings), the G8 spec sheet is more than enough to trump any real world advantage the Mustang might have and thats probably enough to justify spending an extra 3k.

Anyways, again I'm just saying that's how I'd pitch the G8 with that 5k ADM, using the Bullitt Mustaing with a 2k mark-up as a comparison, makes the 5k seem smaller than it really is and then when you start pilling on the extra power and the more sophisticated suspension, that 3k difference gets even smaller.

I work at a pontiac dealership and was told gm only put $900.00 in the G8..Meaning if they sell it for msrp they only make $900.00...Not much room to haggle on the msrp if thats the truth...Not surprised on the mark up...

I work at a pontiac dealership and was told gm only put $900.00 in the G8..Meaning if they sell it for msrp they only make $900.00...Not much room to haggle on the msrp if thats the truth...Not surprised on the mark up...

According to Edmunds, there's almost a $1500 spread between invoice and msrp on a G8 GT.

I work at a pontiac dealership and was told gm only put $900.00 in the G8..Meaning if they sell it for msrp they only make $900.00...Not much room to haggle on the msrp if thats the truth...Not surprised on the mark up...

Ok if that is true, then why not just sell the car for MSRP and make the $900 plus whatever holdback they receive from GM? They'll still be making money and hopefully building a loyal customer base.

Marking up the G8's at asinine prices only hurts the dealer, as well as Pontiac. You would think they would have learned from the GTO.

It really bothers me as a Pontiac enthusiast and owner that great cars that are desperately needed at Pontiac right now might not be as well "received" in terms of sales becuase of greedy dealers. :mad:

My understanding is that there's only been one delivery of special edition "888" models. There's also been no mass advertising that I've seen, so any buyers at this point are from the enthusiast group.

Its far too early to draw the conclusion that Pontiac dealers are going to screw this up just because the first SE car on the lot has a markup on it. The dealers know what happened to the GTO.

screw the g8, you know theyll come out with a better looking gxp in 6 months and then the regular g8s will all be selling used for 15k like the 04 gtos did

Regarding the cheap GTO prices a few years back:
I believe those were SmartBuys. They give you a rediculous low payment, but then you owe like a million bucks as the last baloon payment. That's how they did that.

Residual on my 04 GTO SmartBuy was a bit over $20,000 after 2 years (which would have been Sept. 2006). $20,000 for a 2-year-old car with 11,000 miles on it (my specific example). Not quite a million bucks.

That being said..the way to fix it would be build up an assload in a holding lot and flood them to dealers all at once.

It would seem to me you would need to have a lot to store those cars. The cars that were already out would become more rare, as you are no longer dispatching the vehicles to the dealer but the lot to flood the dealers. If they adopted that stradegy for Camaro, wouldnt it delay the release? While they sat there, wouldnt there be issues of ruber dry rotting, paint dulling from bird dung and animal encounters while the brakes rusted?

GM would have to maintain the vehicles. Now to me it would seem that the dealer is setting the price. They are imposing the markup. Like others have said, why not walk out? If someone is going to pay it fine. If not, then the dealer is the one who is stuck with the result. I would think if they pile up at the dealers lot rather than a GM lot, then at least one of those dealers will come off the markup to move the cars. Make the dealers who charge too much maintain the vehicles they cant sell.

BTW, if you were able to magically flood Pontiac dealers tomorrow with G8's what would the plant workers do for the rest of the year?

BTW, if you were able to magically flood Pontiac dealers tomorrow with G8's what would the plant workers do for the rest of the year?

Build Holdens like they will be doing anyway.:shrug:

Any bets on how much the Camaros get marked up? $10,000?

Any bets on how much the Camaros get marked up? $10,000?

I figure an LS3 Camaro might see that much in markup from certain dealers, but I think 5,000 will be the most common. LS8 or whatever supercharged engine we get in a year or two -- that'll get marked up even more.

Build Holdens like they will be doing anyway.:shrug:

well where I was going with that was the holdens would already be built...


Suppose you were in charge. The first Camaros is ready to roll off the line today. Where would you ship it? You could ship it to a GM lot. Let it sit there until that lot fills up to a substantial amount to flood every dealer in the US while you maintain them. All the while pushing back the date anyone could own one. Or do you start shipping it to dealers lots?

well where I was going with that was the holdens would already be built...

Suppose you were in charge. The first Camaros is ready to roll off the line today. Where would you ship it? You could ship it to a GM lot. Let it sit there until that lot fills up to a substantial amount to flood every dealer in the US while you maintain them. All the while pushing back the date anyone could own one. Or do you start shipping it to dealers lots?

No business like to hold onto any more inventory than necessary. It costs a fortune to finance and reduces cash flow. It represents assests that could be put to far better use elsewhere. And it's especially bad when that inventory is an eagerly anticipated product by your customers that could be turned to cash very quickly. Can you imagine the news stories about buyers clamouring to buy these cars while at the same time GM sits on tens of thousands of them and refuses to sell them?

Besides, a product like Camaro or G8 will probably be in relatively short supply throughout their entire first year. Each dealer is only going to get a handful of them, so it would be impossible to stockpile enough to "flood" the market.

For the average Joe that won't pay a markup, does it really make a difference between these two scenarios: 1) the car goes on sale in January and Joe has to wait until June to get one at MSRP, or 2) GM starts building in January but holds onto all of them until June, at which point everyone can buy them at MSRP. Either way, Joe is waiting until June. Might as well turn the cars loose from the beginning and let the first-on-the-block types pay the premium to get theirs.

I don't know how GM handled the launch of the G8, but with a hot production line I would have built a buffer of Holdens before the Pontiacs started, and then go like 80-90% Pontiacs for as long as possible. It would also be good to limit the markets that get them at first, to further reduce supply shortages (which probably explains why Canada isn't getting them until MY2009).

well where I was going with that was the holdens would already be built...
I was just answering your question, and honestly at that.

Suppose you were in charge. The first Camaros is ready to roll off the line today. Where would you ship it? You could ship it to a GM lot. Let it sit there until that lot fills up to a substantial amount to flood every dealer in the US while you maintain them. All the while pushing back the date anyone could own one. Or do you start shipping it to dealers lots?

I think the answer is pretty obvious here, but I believe that almost every GM car sits at least a few days outside the factory (I know Corvettes do) and is checked before it ships, how long could/would they wait I don't have a clue, it ain't my line of work afterall.

No business like to hold onto any more inventory than necessary. It costs a fortune to finance and reduces cash flow. It represents assests that could be put to far better use elsewhere. And it's especially bad when that inventory is an eagerly anticipated product by your customers that could be turned to cash very quickly. Can you imagine the news stories about buyers clamouring to buy these cars while at the same time GM sits on tens of thousands of them and refuses to sell them?

Besides, a product like Camaro or G8 will probably be in relatively short supply throughout their entire first year. Each dealer is only going to get a handful of them, so it would be impossible to stockpile enough to "flood" the market.

For the average Joe that won't pay a markup, does it really make a difference between these two scenarios: 1) the car goes on sale in January and Joe has to wait until June to get one at MSRP, or 2) GM starts building in January but holds onto all of them until June, at which point everyone can buy them at MSRP. Either way, Joe is waiting until June. Might as well turn the cars loose from the beginning and let the first-on-the-block types pay the premium to get theirs.

I don't know how GM handled the launch of the G8, but with a hot production line I would have built a buffer of Holdens before the Pontiacs started, and then go like 80-90% Pontiacs for as long as possible. It would also be good to limit the markets that get them at first, to further reduce supply shortages (which probably explains why Canada isn't getting them until MY2009).

You make a lot of excellent points. I’d just like to add one more benefit of allowing dealer markups. The extra profit on the high demand cars gives the dealers more room to haggle on everything else (including SSs & Z28s once the rush is over) without missing their revenue targets.

I can only think of three practical ways to allocate a limited number of cars to a larger number of would be buyers (markups, lottery, or build up a huge pre-release inventory). Of the three, I think dealer markups are best for all of us except the wife of the guy who pays way over MSRP and the guy who wins the right to buy an early Camaro at MSRP.

On the G8s I suspect that GM had to deal with limited shipping capacity and might have had to bid against the Asian automakers for space on the ships if they tried to bring over a larger number of G8s right away.

I think the answer is pretty obvious here, but I believe that almost every GM car sits at least a few days outside the factory (I know Corvettes do) and is checked before it ships, how long could/would they wait I don't have a clue, it ain't my line of work afterall.

Well its not my line of work either. I was just questioning the GM holding lot theory. I have no doubt they sit outside a couple days. Im guessing that would pale in comparison both in amt of cars and to how long you would have to wait to "flood the market." At the same time Camaro is going to be a hot product that everyone is after. From a company standpoint I dont see one upside to having a huge staging lot.

I could be wrong, but I just havent seen anyone say anything other than it would prevent dealer markups.

We got our first g8 gt today...so beautiful...Our dealer is doing no markups......What you see on the window is what you pay....Im going to stick with my gto for awhile right now...

We got our first g8 gt today...so beautiful...Our dealer is doing no markups......What you see on the window is what you pay....Im going to stick with my gto for awhile right now...

I am sticking with my GTO until the G8 GXP is released. Once it is released, I am going to shop around cars which include the G8 GXP, Challenger, new Camaro, and new Mustang. Kind of an weird selection of cars to cross shop in some ways but I like them all so I have to test drive them all of course. :)

I am sticking with my GTO until the G8 GXP is released. Once it is released, I am going to shop around cars which include the G8 GXP, Challenger, new Camaro, and new Mustang. Kind of an weird selection of cars to cross shop in some ways but I like them all so I have to test drive them all of course. :)

I'll compare the G8 GT, G8 GXP, Camaro and see which I like best. The G8 has a big advantage, 'cause I really don't like the tiny greenhouse style that the new Camaro seems to have (I'll withhold final judgment until I sit in one).

Im trying to pay extra on my gto as much as i can, so in a year or so i can get either a new camaro or the g8 gxp and still keep the gto....Hopefully it works out that way....

I can see them being marked up. There are very few V8's made for 08 (less than 1000 I believe)...and the launch has been slow as hell IMO. Simple supply and demand...business charge what people are willing to pay. When new Corvettes come out, they always have markups. I very nearly paid a $1500 mark up to get a G8 last week to get a G8 because I had the "I want's", but I backed off because it was white and had no sunroof.

The 04 GTO was the only year GTO to have major markups...and it show sales can be attributed to other things besides the markups. For instance the improper exhaust and lack of hood scoops, or the improper allocation of the cars to northern states. Even once GM threw 5K in rebates on the 04, it still did not light the world on fire. I will always stand by the idea that if GM had waited 8 months or whatever, skipped the 04 GTO, and released what became the 05 from the getgo, the car would have a much different rep.

That being said..the way to fix it would be build up an assload in a holding lot and flood them to dealers all at once.

Been wanting to adress this for some time, but haven't had the time to track down all the figures and email.

First, a $1500 markup is reasonable. As I mentioned, the local Ford dealer had a similar markup on a Bullitt. With the G8 GT, I can easily see a $1500 markup. $2000 at most, but only because they aren't quite easy to get just yet. But a $5,000 markup on a $30,000 CAR is like saying sure you can have dinner with Eva Mendez, but first you have to spend the night with Kathy Bates. It's just going to turn you off of the entire idea. In this instance, the idea of visiting your local Pontiac dealer to pick up a G8.

Next up, no one involved with Pontiac or even new GTO enthusiasts mentions anything regarding an "improper exhaust" as a factor in any GTO complaints. The exhaust as you know was dual all the way through. Most people seem to prefer the sound of the 2004 exhaust over the 2005 and 2006, which though louder lost some of it's tone.

The hood scoops were added to help the car look more aggressive, but you're dead wrong regarding sales and the assumption that rebates didn't light GTO's sales on fire. The numbers and results simply don't support you. Here's why.


July 2004, GTO had it's best sales month to date....897 cars.
August, GM began to finally get some of it's dealers under control...967 GTOs sold.

In September 2004, GM had a Red Tag Sale and included GTO in with incentives that knocked prices down to about 28K.

The result:
September GTO sales rocketed from 967 in August to 2,678.

GM continued to include incentives on the 2004 GTO all fall, but they were reduced. Again, the results:
October...1258
November...1130
December.... and keep in mind, this is the start of winter...2,952!

13,569 GTOs were sold in CY2004.

GM took the GTO off of significant incentives in January, and kept them off the remainder of GTO's production. Dealers stopped scalping the cars, and GTO settled into steady yearly sales.
11,590 in 2005.
11,268 in 2006
4200 left over GTOs were sold last year.

I contacted Jim Hopson early on about my own experience when I was looking to get a GTO. In a very diplomatic way, they said they recognized the problems and were working to fix them with the dealers.

Others I was in contact with at the time came right out and blamed 2 things almost in the same language and independently. First was a flawed early distribution system that favored Pontiac dealers that sold the most cars which unfortunately were in the exact areas (Northeast) where the demand for the car wasn't (the south and the west). The other thing was dealer greed.

Jim Wagners has repeatedly said (quoted the latest in the current Automobile magazine) that "Flawed" training of dealers on how to sell the new GTO, and the fact that potential buyers were restricted and/or prevented from actually test driving or even in some instances sitting in the car, which mirrors the experiences many including myself experienced. He (and others at GM, so it's not just me quoting one source) soured plenty of potential buyers which GM tried to rectify by putting GTO on incentives with everything else although they tried to avoid it like the plague.

I respectfully disagree on the idea that GM should have waited till the following year to bring out the GTO.

1. The Holden Monaro was already over 2 years old when we got it. The Commodore it was based on was already pushing 6. Delay would have simply given us a even older design.

2. Scoops and exhaust tips poking out of both sides of the rear as opposed to the same side didn't affect sales one way or the other.

3. The GTO had an expiration date. Revised interior passenger safety standards meant that the GTO could not be imported and sold in the US after September 1st 2006 without major investments in the interior. Something out of the question since it was based on an architecture that was scheduled to be replaced less than a year later.

4. Finally, delaying the car made positively zero financial sense:
a) You'd cut the return on investment by 1/3 (in reality, it was more than that)
b) The whole program would as a result, become 1/3 more expensive (and DOA).
c) The car already was a good package. It was the quickest, fastest, best handling GTO in history. It also was today what GTO was in the 1960s, a stealth looking, slightly pricey very quick car. People that complained and had issues with the new GTO weren't going to be pacified by a couple of hood scoops and pretty tail pipes.

I also have to (again, respectfully) disagree with dumping massive amounts of G8s all at once to keep prices low. What this will cause is:

1. Quality control issues. Pumping out massive numbers of cars means they have to be made quickly. They can't sit on the lots ($$$), so the lots would have to be filled quickly and cars would have to be moved quickly (transportation $$$).

2. Instant low resale value: initial flooding of G8s will cloud resale values long after introductions are over and the excitement dies.

3. Screwed up production: What happens to factory production after the market is saturated? Sales plummet, massive layoffs which GM would still have to pay full salary (more $$$)

4. Last but not least, you screw up the life cycle of the car and possibly damage it's history. What has happened in the past when a new car flooded the market and ranked up massive early sales only to see sales suddenly drop ? Hint: look at the sales history of the AMC Pacer, Pontiac Fiero, & Ford Mustang II for starters.

Unnaturally short life spans.

Was the Mach 1 White with a 5-spd?
If so, I'll head your way for a weekend trip! ;)

I posted in another thread about a USED GT500 at Parkway Ford that had 7xxx miles on it and was STILL being "adjusted for market" by $5000. I could not believe that. Dealer rape on a USED CAR!!!

I am simply against these dealers making pure rape-money on cars they did not sell, transport, or do a d@mn-thing to bring to you. :mad:

The car is gone now. :(

Was a Grey Mach 1. Slightly lowered, mint condition. Car was obviously well taken care of. No wear or tear anywhere. Had 87K miles.

In the end, I didn't do it because how many 2002 B4Cs are there.... let alone B4Cs assigned to a single CHP officer it's entire 3 years of service, complete with a bullet hole and a newspaper article about a car chase it was involved in?

Mach 1s are rare, but my B4C is rarer. :D


Any bets on how much the Camaros get marked up? $10,000?

I would easily agree that we're going to get a bit more than ravaged when the new Camaro comes out, but GM is doing something ingenious:

Early in the production, most Camaros will be V8s.

The expectation is that the very cars that dealers will tend to attach extremely high markups on will be offset somewhat by high production proportions.

We got our first g8 gt today...so beautiful...Our dealer is doing no markups......What you see on the window is what you pay....Im going to stick with my gto for awhile right now...

The Phoenix area is a very good place to buy new cars. The very 1st place I came across that wasn't scalping GTOs was in Tolleson. Same area's Dodge dealer was the only Chreysler dealer I ever saw that sold an SRT 8 Charger for less than a couple thousand over sticker (I think it was $1500... very resonable next to the $3K+ in most of Cali). Too bad if you work in California, you have to register & smog your car here.

Jim Wagners has repeatedly said (quoted the latest in the current Automobile magazine) that "Flawed" training of dealers on how to sell the new GTO, and the fact that potential buyers were restricted and/or prevented from actually test driving or even in some instances sitting in the car,

Not allowing test drives is the best way not to sell a car. And it's not just Pontiac dealers. Back in 1998, an non-enthusiast friend was looking for a sporty coupe. He didn't like the Camaro (too low to the ground, too ... well, the usual complaints), so I took him to a Toyota dealer to look at the Supra. No test drives until you sign something (I guess you could back out if you didn't like it at that point, but we never got that far). My friend wasn't interested in the attitude, so we went to the Ford dealer and he bought a Mustang.

I found it ironic that you could go to a BMW dealer and take a $60K 540i for a test drive, but the Toyota dealer wouldn't let you do that in a $30K Supra.

You can bargain around the ADM, but you can't bargain around a no-test-drives policy.

No sitting is even sillier. Why did the dealer order the car?

I stopped by the local Pontiac dealer, but they don't have one yet. When I asked when they expected one the "manager" claimed they weren't even built yet. :confused: Although he did assure me they wouldn't be marked over MSRP when they did get them.

Not allowing test drives is the best way not to sell a car. And it's not just Pontiac dealers. Back in 1998, an non-enthusiast friend was looking for a sporty coupe. He didn't like the Camaro (too low to the ground, too ... well, the usual complaints), so I took him to a Toyota dealer to look at the Supra. No test drives until you sign something (I guess you could back out if you didn't like it at that point, but we never got that far). My friend wasn't interested in the attitude, so we went to the Ford dealer and he bought a Mustang.

I found it ironic that you could go to a BMW dealer and take a $60K 540i for a test drive, but the Toyota dealer wouldn't let you do that in a $30K Supra.

You can bargain around the ADM, but you can't bargain around a no-test-drives policy.

No sitting is even sillier. Why did the dealer order the car?

...and the Toyota Supra didn't last very long after that.... due to poor sales. :think:

I stopped by the local Pontiac dealer, but they don't have one yet. When I asked when they expected one the "manager" claimed they weren't even built yet. :confused: Although he did assure me they wouldn't be marked over MSRP when they did get them.

The 1st retail batch came to the US last month. Unlike the early GTO debacle, the first ones are going to the Pontiac dealers aren't buried under 3 feet of winter snow just because they sold alot of Pontiacs. The G8s are going to the areas that can sell them first, in the west and south. They should be in SC, because some went to Florida.

If that "manager" says they haven't been even made yet, that manager should look for a different line of work. The G8 is the most important car Pontiac has launched since G6 3 1/2 years ago (yep, that long already), so he should have at least some knowledge of when it should be shipped.

I took a G8 GT for a test drive today. It's priced at MSRP. I just stopped to look, but the dealership owner convinced me to take a test drive.

Some Pontiac dealers actually want to sell these cars.

Everybody I've spoken with who've locked one up already paid MSRP. Maybe it's just California at it again with their usual weirdness. :shrug:

Pontiac dealers are infact at it again.

Virginia:

So I had a doctor's appointment today and had to take the back way to get to the data center after the appointment. I pass the local Pontiac dealership and decide to go and see if they have any G8s in stock. They have a beautiful G8 GT loaded. It is Metallic Grey (the color I would want) and it has the whole sport package. Very sharp looking car for sure. Overall, I like the exterior of the G8 better than my GTO but the interior wasn't that much better than that of my GTO. In some areas, I like the GTO interior better. Anyway, I ask the sales guy if the '09 GXP is still on track and he says yes. I tell him I look forward to the GXP and that I may trade my GTO in for it. That effectively lets him know to leave me alone to look over the G8 GT. This is where is gets good. The sticker price is $31,xxx. I was shocked. Great deal for all of the features you get. Then there is a little sticky next to the sticker that says "A.D.M. $6995" which brings the total price to about $38,500 (I could probably step into a decent 335i for that price). I then go up to the front desk where the salesmen are gathered and the conversation proceeds as follows:

Me: Does A.D.M. mean additional dealer markup?

Old salesman: Yes it does.

Me: Why are you charging a $7000 markup?

Old salesman: Because this is the 1 of the first 888 cars in America

Me: :uhoh: You know there are other dealerships that do not have a markup right? I would rather just wait a few months or a year.

Young cocky salesman (in a sarcastic tone): Well there are other dealerships getting the markup so we are keeping it as is!

Me: Yeah, good luck with that (as I exit the dealership literally laughing)

What is this dealership thinking? Did they not learn from the GTO? This is a working man's performance sedan. No middle class working man is going to fork over an extra $7000 for a car that is going to be mass produced only to have that extra $7000 plus the normal depreciation hit right when driving it off the lot. I just thought that by now dealers would understand that they should be pushing these cars and getting them on the road. Asking for a $7000 markup especially with these gas prices is just nuts. I bought my GTO from this dealer back in '05 and got a great deal. It just gets me mad.

On a side note, a lady was admiring my GTO in the parking lot and told me how nice it was :).

Oklahoma:

Yeah, same song, second verse. Same Pontiac dealership here that went from "Don't touch" and $5,000 ADP on GTO (and where I purchased my GTO for almost $8,000 off sticker 9 months later) is doing the same thing with their G8 GT. No test drives and $5,000 ADP sticker. Maybe I'll go back and see them in September, when the 2009 models are out, gas is $4.50/gallon and unsold G8 GTs are stacked up to the rafters.


I'm sure there's a few dealers out there that actually want Pontiac to survive and realize that they actually have to SELL cars in order for this to happen. But there is obviously a whole heap of Pontiac dealers that don't get it.

Then again, since most Pontiac dealers are now also Buick dealers, perhaps they are relying on the hot sales numbers Buick's cars are generating and feel they can do without Pontiac.....
....er.... nevermind...cancel that.

I picked up the March 29th Orange County Register when I was in L.A. a couple of weekends ago, and in it I found a dealer that was advertising five G8 GTs for $1000 under MSRP + a $1000 Conquest rebate (for net 2K off).

So some dealers are trying to get away with silly prices, while others are just trying to sell cars.

I plan on taking the OCR to my local dealer, even though we're nearly 400 miles away. After all, for $1000, it's worth a trip to the OC.

How do some dealers keep the doors open?

How do some dealers keep the doors open?

Thats why some dealers are closing..just amazes me that they would want the quick 5K..and not a lifetime customer that will bring in 10 times that over the life of buying cars???:confused:

How do some dealers keep the doors open?

I will tell you this. On my last visit to this particular Pontiac dealership, the place was a ghost town. Not hard to figure out why.

How do some dealers keep the doors open?

Apparently because they're more interested in operating a museum than an establishment that actually sells cars. Give them some time and they'll probably try to charge admission fees. :rolleyes:

I picked up the March 29th Orange County Register when I was in L.A. a couple of weekends ago, and in it I found a dealer that was advertising five G8 GTs for $1000 under MSRP + a $1000 Conquest rebate (for net 2K off).

So some dealers are trying to get away with silly prices, while others are just trying to sell cars.

I plan on taking the OCR to my local dealer, even though we're nearly 400 miles away. After all, for $1000, it's worth a trip to the OC.

Hmm maybe it's time for me to take a test drive. Although I'm set on the Camaro I find the G8 very interesting.

I have to agree that the dealers in this OC area are willing to deal and want to move the volume. They didn't seem to gouge the GTO's I saw either in 04-06. But they did put aftermarket "rims" on them and added that to the sticker price. So I'm sure there was some extra for the dealer in that.

Hmm maybe it's time for me to take a test drive. Although I'm set on the Camaro I find the G8 very interesting.

I have to agree that the dealers in this OC area are willing to deal and want to move the volume. They didn't seem to gouge the GTO's I saw either in 04-06. But they did put aftermarket "rims" on them and added that to the sticker price. So I'm sure there was some extra for the dealer in that.

You could negotiate that or just tell them to take those rims off if you don't like them (I never do).