So there's new pics of the interior.

First, released to the public were some in progress pictures of the interior, that were in no way intended to be "official production".
Now there's pictures of a interior that is cleaned up, and still unprofessionally photographed as ****.

Scott said not to hate on the interior until you've seen it for yourself. What's everyone do? Goes psycho.
New pictures closer to production? Now you have 9 pages of people saying how much they love it.

I guess Scott was right when he said not to judge the interior off those spy pictures. Everyone's now in love with the interior; people are a true phenomena.

95% of the former haters who now love it have no clue about the stages a product - ANY product, whether it's a car or a dishwasher - must go through during the engineering process to arrive at the final production stage.

Looking better, but I am still not sold on the interior. However, it wouldn't keep me from buying the car.

I am still not crazy about the interior but I will without a doubt own a new Camaro.I hope they still have time to do something about that ugly steering wheel and the speedo and tach gauges.I guess the radio center stack is in stone.

i still think it is garbage

I'm not seeing a large mass of people saying they have changed their mind about it. I do see the nut-swingers going bonkers and posting how much they love it that much more with every new picture they see.

95% of the former haters who now love it have no clue about the stages a product - ANY product, whether it's a car or a dishwasher - must go through during the engineering process to arrive at the final production stage.

That's not true, they just all expect to buy a Camaro with Cadillac interior, which is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

I'm not seeing a large mass of people saying they have changed their mind about it. I do see the nut-swingers going bonkers and posting how much they love it that much more with every new picture they see.

i still think it is garbage

:cry:

Seriously....people can love the interior without being sack-dwellers. Just like you can hate it and still be out of touch with what a Camaro should be.

That's not true, they just all expect to buy a Camaro with Cadillac interior, which is the stupidest thing I've ever read.



Not true at all.

Why are they nut swingers? Because they like it? Does that mean that people who don't like it are jerk-offs? And if I am unsure what I think does that mean that I gutless and can't take a stand?
They like it, you don't (I am guessing from the tone of your post) leave it at that. This issue is beyond discussion, GM is putting that interior in the Camaro, they said they were from the get-go.If you don't like it (any and all of the people who don't like it), why slam people who do?

Really, what I hear from the detractors is that the car is not what THEY thought/wanted/hoped the new Camaro would be, so they take every opportunity to disparrage both the car, and those who really like it.

Not true at all.

Which part, the stupidest thing I've ever read, or the people want a cadillac interior?

It is rediculous to think that a car that we hope to price somewhere in the low 20's can be produced with the same interior accouterments as a car that costs twice as much. Not to mention that minimalism is key here. This is a performance car. It needs to be driver oriented. It needs style, but not pretense.

Guys, maybe we should just agree to disagree? Seriously. Anyone who really doesn't like the car - you don't have to get one. Those who really like it - will get a chance to buy and enjoy one. Those who are undecided - well it's likely just best to let them decide on their own. I'm going to try and stay out of threads like this (I know that looks a little hypocritical, here I am posting) and instead join discussions where we can celebrate what we love.

Not true at all.

while i'm sure you wouldnt expect the quality materials found in a cadillac inteiror.. i bet you would definitely like the same general design and layout

which is the same as 90% of the cars out there

i'm not in love with the Camaro's interior either.. but i'm happy its unique

Which part, the stupidest thing I've ever read, or the people want a cadillac interior?




I'd say both are not true.

While the new interior is not terrible...I also don't think it is as great or revolutionary as GM thinks it is.

Honestly they could have put the G8 interior in the thing and I would have been a happier camper.

While the new interior is not terrible...I also don't think it is as great or revolutionary as GM thinks it is.

Honestly they could have put the G8 interior in the thing and I would have been a happier camper.

I agree there!!

While the new interior is not terrible...I also don't think it is as great or revolutionary as GM thinks it is.

Honestly they could have put the G8 interior in the thing and I would have been a happier camper.

I would have been pleased with that, hell all along I have been saying just put the GTO interior in it.

To a certain extent, its a no win for Scott and team. Has anyone really thought about all the different groups they want to appeal to with this car?

- Those who were around in 69 and want to see a heritage style car.

- Those who want an all out quarter mile beast.

- Those who have grown up owning high performance cars but are at an age now where interior comfort and features rank just as high.

- The "young folks" whose friends have been buying Scion's, Honda's and the such that GM would like to bring back to an American car.

- Someone who wants an attractive "popular" car, without suffering the insurance burdens of 400hp, or the inability to see the outside, making it an easy car to live with.


And these are just the first few that came to my mind. Now just think for a second how opposed each of these groups are to the other. Do I love 100% of the interior? No. But I'm going to focus on the things I like, and give the things I don't the chance to grow on me. After all, I've got another year to let that happen!

That's not true, they just all expect to buy a Camaro with Cadillac interior, which is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

A malibu interior would have been great IMO. As would a G8 or the old GTO interior. I was very happy when i heard teh car was being developed in Oz, i was hopeful that the G8 / GTO interior that *EVERYONE* on these boards cheers would make it into the camaro. No such luck.

Something that makes me laugh everytime i read it is the fella with the quote by Rick Wagoneer when he first saw the concept and said he wanted it redone because it was too retro. It makes me wish...if only he had looked at the interior and made the same command.

Maybe i shouldn't use the term nut swinger since it has negative connotations. When i say nut swinger, i mean that group of people that would praise the car if it had milk crate seats and the interior from a mid 90s lumina in it. Whether you admit it or not, you know you're out there.

Originally Posted by Bart:
To a certain extent, its a no win for Scott and team. Has anyone really thought about all the different groups they want to appeal to with this car?
That's "Camaro"... multigenerational mass appeal, affordable steller performance.
He picked a tough car to execute huh??:D
I appreciate him, but don't envy him.;)

I'm not seeing a large mass of people saying they have changed their mind about it. I do see the nut-swingers going bonkers and posting how much they love it that much more with every new picture they see.

I'm amazed there are still people who are actively lobbying for the new Camaro to have an ill-matched, anonymous, disjoint mainstream interior. We've had lengthy and substantial discussion on this already here on the site. The vast majority have already adjusted to the overall exterior AND interior design of the car. It seems that those who haven't, and who can't seem to get along with this, favor using pejoritive terms ('nu********') to help them express their chronic frustrations. Please - keep things civil here. And refrain from berating those here who have found something to love.

I'm glad there are so many who love it already, it means it will have a great start, I'm just afraid it'll be like the starving man illustration tho.

Give a starving man a plain old craker,
he'll swear it was the best d@mn craker in the world.
After his stomach is full, he realizes it wasn't such a great cracker, he was just very hungry!
Doesn't want anything to do with crackers.
And moves on to better food.

(Not saying it will happen, we haven't sat in one or seen the end result, but see a lot of salivating over pics of an unfinished, pieced together prototype.)
I feel the hunger too.;)
I just want it to have a long run again.

(Trying to discuss the interior -- one more time -- in a civil way)

I'm amazed there are still people who are actively lobbying for the new Camaro to have an ill-matched, anonymous, disjoint mainstream interior.

I honestly feel the interior, as it sits now, looks far more disjointed and confused than a G8 interior would.

You've got gauge pods and console gauges ripped from the "Free Love & Peace" era, with quasi-futuristic halo lighting effects built in. Then the center stack looks like something from a modern video game console. I guess I just don't see any fluid theme or flow to the whole thing.

Again, we're not talking materials. I don't expect Cadillac-esque materials at all. I think the interior materials in the Malibu would suffice no matter what design they do.

I'm glad a lot of people on Camaro boards like how this is shaping up from the spy pics. I still stand concerned that the general public will find it too "unusual".

I just feel sorry for a few of you guy's wives, lol. We have some picky suckers around here to be a bunch of 4th gen interior owners :)

Now let me say I dont really have any major beef against the 4th gen interior. It was where it needed to be for the price/performance point in the market.

I'm glad a lot of people on Camaro boards like how this is shaping up from the spy pics. I still stand concerned that the general public will find it too "unusual".

I had the same fear about the 05+ Mustang's interior as well. Thought it was too goofy/out there/retro for it to sit well with the non-enthusiast public. But alas Ford's sold a shatload of em.

I will say I have warmed up alot more to it with more and more pics that keep coming out (albeit illegally).

(Trying to discuss the interior -- one more time -- in a civil way)

I honestly feel the interior, as it sits now, looks far more disjointed and confused than a G8 interior would.

You've got gauge pods and console gauges ripped from the "Free Love & Peace" era, with quasi-futuristic halo lighting effects built in. Then the center stack looks like something from a modern video game console. I guess I just don't see any fluid theme or flow to the whole thing.

Again, we're not talking materials. I don't expect Cadillac-esque materials at all. I think the interior materials in the Malibu would suffice no matter what design they do.

I'm glad a lot of people on Camaro boards like how this is shaping up from the spy pics. I still stand concerned that the general public will find it too "unusual".
I'm glad too. But keep in mind, the show car isn't just being shown to Camaro geeks, at all these shows. Lots of people wander around all over, at such events. And it has been an unqualified HIT wherever it goes. Do you believe FBF's statements on this subject, or not? (I'm not saying it's right or wrong to believe him). If you do believe him, you've got a paradox then - because he himself has stated opinion along the lines that such a singular car deserves a singular interior.

Does the interior theme fit this car? You don't seem to think so... and that's your right. I do however. And anyone (not necessarily you) who thinks its wacko to have a 'retro'-inspired interior in the new Camaro... is frankly not understanding this interior design, IMO. Note the words of the designers themselves:

The interior team overseen by Roustemis “didn’t want to be too influenced by the ‘69” and consequently found an appropriately contemporary direction early on, their ideas also informing the resolution of external details such as the badge’s orange key-line and use of brushed aluminum.

In place of the exterior’s fighter-jet bias, the designers were influenced by analog Diesel watches, and carried the deep-dish theme from the steering wheel to the cluster gauges.

(from the article referenced in my other thread herein, on Camaro Concept History: http://camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=576083 )

I believe the new Camaro's interior is an exceptional combination of heritage cues from previous Camaros (NOT just the 1gen BTW), and modern design elements such as the swooping internal door trim panels and oval door pulls. I believe a G8 or Malibu interior juxtaposed inside that magnificent and inspiring exterior shape, would be a dramatic letdown for MANY potential buyers, many more in fact than might be currently disappointed with the interior as we know it.

I'm amazed there are still people who are actively lobbying for the new Camaro to have an ill-matched, anonymous, disjoint mainstream interior. We've had lengthy and substantial discussion on this already here on the site. The vast majority have already adjusted to the overall exterior AND interior design of the car. It seems that those who haven't, and who can't seem to get along with this, favor using pejoritive terms ('nu********') to help them express their chronic frustrations. Please - keep things civil here. And refrain from berating those here who have found something to love.

You completely missed my point. I simply said i don't see a large number of people converting to love the interior as the OP said. All i see is a bunch of people patting each other on the back about how much they love it.

I accept some of you like it, and that some fence sitters are warming to it more. I did not lobby for anything in my post, i was just pointing out that no matter how much some of you wish everyone had the same opinion as you, there are still those of us who don't, and 9 pages of people patting each other on the back doesn't change it.

I'll refrain from the use of the n-word if you guys can refrain from mischaracterizing those who don't agree with you (eg. everyone loves it now because i do, or, you guys want a caddie interior in a chevy, or, you want a clunky interior like the malibu that everyone in the press and this board has been praising)

In an effort to be non confrontational to those in love with the car's interior, I'm going to try the say something nice / say something critical approach....

NICE
It really looks like the design team put a great deal of effort into this interior. Much more than I've ever seen for a car at this price point.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately that great effort doesn't appear to be directed in a consistent direction. The interior has little cohesion or flow. The multiple colors and angles are offensive to the eye.

NICE
The new interior really offers quite a lot for the tech lover / gimmick lover / gadget lover. In fact once again I feel it offers more than any car I've seen at a similar price point.

CRITICAL
Since when has Camaro's interior been about pomp and circumstance / gimmicks and gadgets? IMO this car has always been focused on getting the job done better than anyone on the street but with a blue collar - no frills - just the facts ma'am approach. This interior has lost that focus. Do I think the car should be an engine in a box with a milk crate to sit on? Heck no, but the gadget guys always had Corvette and Cadillac to scratch their gimmick itch.

NICE
The interior offers some heritage bits for those who never got to experience a first gen of their own.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately some of the heritage baked into this thing is not necessarily going to make for a better car. For some, this car is going to be bought in spite of those features. Some will have to tolerate and adjust to those features if they want the car. Tolerate? Adjust? Camaro is supposed to be about the driver. Not vice versa.

NICE
The interior is certainly unique and fresh with a style all it's own. No half hearted garden variety econo car interior there.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately what is unique and fresh does not always withstand the test of time. What do the leisure suit / bell bottom wearers of the '70s, parachute pants / acid washed jeans wearers of the '80s, and fluorescent colored clothing / spandex wearers of the early 90's think of those unique and fresh styles now? Clean, simple, effective and tasteful is usually going to endure much better than unique and fresh.

NICE
The unique and fresh and interior has certainly brought a lot of new first time Camaro buyers into the picture.

CRITICAL
This level of "new" love for the interior may not be sustained for very long, at least not for the life of the model. Why? Because the unique and fresh lovers always move onto the next unique and fresh thing. Will a more business like "fighter pilot" type interior be needed to sustain sales and welcome back those alienated by the current interior? With regard to sales levels in the long term, would that more business like interior have been a better choice in the first place?



My not so humble opinion of course. :D

I'll refrain from the use of the n-word if you guys can refrain from mischaracterizing those who don't agree with you (eg. everyone loves it now because i do, or, you guys want a caddie interior in a chevy, or, you want a clunky interior like the malibu that everyone in the press and this board has been praising)
X2

And by "you", I mean those who love the interior, not specifically you BDF.

I'm glad too. But keep in mind, the show car isn't just being shown to Camaro geeks, at all these shows. Lots of people wander around all over, at such events. And it has been an unqualified HIT wherever it goes. Do you believe FBF's statements on this subject, or not?

Well of course I believe Scott -- I've seen the reactions, first hand. However, I get the feeling that these people are drooling over the exterior of the car....you know, the part everyone can see clearly. Often times, the concept has been put on elevated rotating displays or other angles where the interior is not as easily seen. And quite honestly, I don't think that even if people are also paying attention to the interior (which is debatable), they particularly care. Concept cars historically have wild interiors -- I think people are pre-conditioned to take them with a grain of salt.

I believe the new Camaro's interior is an exceptional combination of heritage cues from previous Camaros (NOT just the 1gen BTW)

Sorry, I just don't see it. The console gauges we can all agree on are directly from the 1st Gen. And take a look at the gauges in this car. You have to admit there is more than a passing resemblence to what we see on the pre-prod cars.

http://www.universalautosalesandclassiccars.com/images/1969%20Camaro32/69Camaro32Interior.jpg.JPG (hmm...big square gauge pods, DIC between the two and old-school speedo/tach font)

As opposed to an early 2nd gen car:
http://www.nastyz28.com/faq/interior/70ci-dash.jpg

And we all know how 3rd and 4th gen dashes looked.

CRITICAL
Since when has Camaro's interior been about pomp and circumstance / gimmicks and gadgets? IMO this car has always been focused on getting the job done better than anyone on the street but with a blue color - no frills - just the facts ma'am approach. This interior has lost that focus. Do I think the car should be an engine in a box with a milk crate to sit on? Heck no, but the gadget guys always had Corvette and Cadillac to scratch their gimmick itch.


Exactly. Since our propaganda minist..erm... I mean, BigDark&Fast, is continuously quoting Scott like he's reading quotes from the Bible, I will too. Scott has probably told me a million times - and I agree - "In the Camaro, less is more", (BTW, why Scott spends so much time talking Camaros to a non-Camaro enthusiast like me is curious :shrug:, but he does...go figure).

So what we have here friends, is not 'less is more'...it's over the top and weird. For those that like it, GOOD! I'M SO VERY HAPPY THAT YOU DO, please don't let my opinion in any way influence you to not buy this car - please buy two or more.

I DO think alot of effort went into this interior, most probably more than any Camaro in history - but sadly, the result IMO, is pony car meets bizarro world.

Oh yes, and we can stop comparing this to the 2005 Mustang interior, the Mustang will have a new one shortly after Camaro is released.

First, released to the public were some in progress pictures of the interior, that were in no way intended to be "official production".
Now there's pictures of a interior that is cleaned up, and still unprofessionally photographed as ****.

Scott said not to hate on the interior until you've seen it for yourself. What's everyone do? Goes psycho.
New pictures closer to production? Now you have 9 pages of people saying how much they love it.

I guess Scott was right when he said not to judge the interior off those spy pictures. Everyone's now in love with the interior; people are a true phenomena.

You may be jumping to conclusions here. The last interior thread contained multiple posts indicating that negative comments and / or opinions that go against the grain are not welcome here. It could be that the so called “Naysayers” are not in any big hurry to give their opinions based on the previous fallout.

Do these pictures look better? Of course they do. This interior is more complete and less cobbled. Has my opinion changed about the interior? No. I still do not like the theme or execution. Sorry.

Oh yes, and we can stop comparing this to the 2005 Mustang interior, the Mustang will have a new one shortly after Camaro is released.

Im going to jump on your "damn it all the hell" bandwagon for a minute and say that even tho I havent seen the completed mustang interior or sat in it or touched it that it will suck and I will hate it and it makes me vomit and if I could I would be on my way to buy a camaro!? ****ing ford, way to screw it up! and all you new mustang interior lovers are just swinging on Carrol Shelbys NUTS!;)

Seriously tho, why havent you guys went out and bought a mustangs yet?? Your worse than that really really gay guy that everyone knows is gay but still trys to tell you hes out sleeping with tons of girls! Come on and just get outa the closet!!!

Exactly. Since our propaganda minist..erm... I mean, BigDark&Fast

agreed and its getting tiring to read any one person responding to every last thing whether something is an acceptable opinon or not...


Oh yes, and we can stop comparing this to the 2005 Mustang interior, the Mustang will have a new one shortly after Camaro is released.

Thats an interesting thought. The Current Mustang is a literal 60s inspired design and the interior is modern interpretation of a 65 Mustang interior. I always assumed that the next Mustang would be the same idea of the giugiaro concept but a different interpretation. giugiaro concept mimiced Camaro and had to have the interior match. Are you saying that the Mustang redesign will throw out retro and be a completely new design, or are you saying maybe something with a giugiaro/camaro idea of design with a all new without any heritage interior.

I bet it has alot of torque.
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc3/rsthoth/notagaingm.jpg

agreed and its getting tiring to read any one person responding to every last thing whether something is an acceptable opinon or not...



Thats an interesting thought. The Current Mustang is a literal 60s inspired design and the interior is modern interpretation of a 65 Mustang interior. I always assumed that the next Mustang would be the same idea of the giugiaro concept but a different interpretation. giugiaro concept mimiced Camaro and had to have the interior match. Are you saying that the Mustang redesign will throw out retro and be a completely new design, or are you saying maybe something with a giugiaro/camaro idea of design with a all new without any heritage interior.

I don't know what it'll look like, but the rumor mill suggests that it won't be retro.

And it's center stack may look very much like this.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7743/picture3hs0.png

that mustang drawing looks like it was inspired by the sega dreamcast console for some reason...I really don't like it...the Camaro interior on the other hand is looking better every time I see it

I love the body...don't know if I am wild about the interior

Ponder this:

What would the comments be about this interior, leaked shots, if it was...say...a new Camry interior?

:eek:

How many would be saying, "that's the sexiest thing we've ever seen!"

:think:

Or using the :barf: emotiocon?

Just curious...:)

Exactly. Since our propaganda minist..erm... I mean, BigDark&Fast, is continuously quoting Scott like he's reading quotes from the Bible, I will too. Scott has probably told me a million times - and I agree - "In the Camaro, less is more", (BTW, why Scott spends so much time talking Camaros to a non-Camaro enthusiast like me is curious :shrug:, but he does...go figure).

So what we have here friends, is not 'less is more'...it's over the top and weird. For those that like it, GOOD! I'M SO VERY HAPPY THAT YOU DO, please don't let my opinion in any way influence you to not buy this car - please buy two or more.

I DO think alot of effort went into this interior, most probably more than any Camaro in history - but sadly, the result IMO, is pony car meets bizarro world.

Oh yes, and we can stop comparing this to the 2005 Mustang interior, the Mustang will have a new one shortly after Camaro is released.

I too am happy that some people love this thing. It's success is the *ONLY* hope i have that GM will ever offer another reasonably priced performance car/coupe again. If i have to move to cadillac, i could and might, but it's really not my nature to spend that much of my money on cars and could just as easily move to mustang, challenger or even an import if they hit the right notes. After all, for cadillac money, there are A LOT of options in the world, including better bang for the buck cars.

I also agree that comparing the 5th gen interior to a car that is 5 model years older is pretty weak and is EXACTLY the kind of hole GM was stuck in for far too many years. I'm super-cereal, does "look the new camaro interior is way better than the 5 year old mustang retro interior that's getting refreshed next year" sound any different than "look, the new malibu interior is way nicer than the 5 model year old camry that's due to be refreshed next year".

Wow another interior debate. The car is due out in about a year. I would say most of the interior is complete as the exterior is. Just time for testing and getting ready for production. At this point opinions and debate means nothing. You either like it or you don't. I would think waiting until the car is at the local dealer and you're in the driver seat roaring past 60 with a scared salesman shotgun to make the final decision on the interior but I suppose the debate is more fun with spy pics.

Everyone's now in love with the interior; people are a true phenomena.

Wow another interior debate...You either like it or you don't.


I agree with you 99, but since mike appointed himself spokesperson of *everyone* with this waste of bandwidth post, i thought i should point out that he should learn to speak for himself, and was even nice enough to point out why....

NICE
The new interior really offers quite a lot for the tech lover / gimmick lover / gadget lover. In fact once again I feel it offers more than any car I've seen at a similar price point.



I think this is why I've warmed up a little more to it since the new clearer lit up dash spypics have come out. I've always been more of a fan of "techy" interiors over plain jane not much to stare at ones. Of course, that is also a departure from typical Camaro interiors of the past. While there are still things here and there I would change, overall I'm a little more receiving of it.

However I also understand how many people would not like this interior AT ALL. There really isn't a middle ground styling direction with it, its a very love it/hate it design. And being in a car with a hallowed nameplate adds even more fuel to the fire.

Overall I think the general public will like it because it is a different breed and has the "bells and whistles flair" one usually finds in a BMW or Mercedes style interior. The question will be whether or not it can stand the test of time over a model run after the initial "wow thats cool!" has worn off.

Seriously tho, why havent you guys went out and bought a mustangs yet??

Very tiring rebuttal.

Ponder this:

What would the comments be about this interior, leaked shots, if it was...say...a new Camry interior?

:eek:

How many would be saying, "that's the sexiest thing we've ever seen!"

:think:

Or using the :barf: emotiocon?

Just curious...:)

It's not boring/bland enough to be a Camry interior! (It's not boring at all, it's kinda bold :D )

Very tiring rebuttal.

maybe but not as tiring as hearing you bitch about the same thing in EVERY thread!

maybe but not as tiring as hearing you bitch about the same thing in EVERY thread!

Apparently speaking openly and *gasp* disapprovingly about the interior design direction now amounts to "bitching".

Again, I am sorry to be such a downer amidst the party. I will refrain from any further comment.

maybe but not as tiring as hearing you bitch about the same thing in EVERY thread!

I think we have a right to bitch, we are potential customers.

Sorry, I'm not going to just take whatever GM gives me like some of you. :rolleyes:

Plus it appears that z28wilson has been around a helluva a lot longer than you. So his statements > yours.

Bottom line is the interior is set. They are not going to change it, no matter how much some of you bitch. I don't particularly like the IP, but I am willing to weigh my dislike of the IP against the rest of the car, once the production model is shown. Also, length of time on the board does not make anyone's opinion or post better than anyone elses.

I think we have a right to bitch, we are potential customers.

Sorry, I'm not going to just take whatever GM gives me like some of you. :rolleyes:

Plus it appears that z28wilson has been around a helluva a lot longer than you. So his statements > yours.

Sure you have the right to bitch, but to do so in every thread becomes a bit tiring for the rest of us.

Dude, youve been taking what GM and any other auto manufacturer gives you since the first car rolled off the lot. Unless you have found a company that makes an infinite amount of designs to cater to every single person.... your statment -->:rolleyes:

Ive heard it probably a hundred time, especially from Scott, that YOU are in the minority, and no car manufacture should build cars for a minority. SOO by bitching in every thread about things that WILL NOT CHANGE gets really old really quick. I dont understand why this is sooo hard for you guys that dont like it to understand!? At no time did I, Scott, Jason, ANYONE say you cant voice your opinion! What Im saying it is has gotten to the point were your nagging like an old house wife!!

Mind you there are a lot of people that don't like that just won't post for fear of getting called a 'non fan' or 'troll'

I too am curious as to the ammount of blind faith in the product versus who actually likes it.

But again, it really doesn't matter how many people like it....it's how many people will actually BUY it. It all comes down to signing on the dotted line, and more people than often are all talk.

I'm sure it'll do well...
but me personally I don't like the interior or layout.
But that's just me.

In an effort to be non confrontational to those in love with the car's interior, I'm going to try the say something nice / say something critical approach....

NICE
It really looks like the design team put a great deal of effort into this interior. Much more than I've ever seen for a car at this price point.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately that great effort doesn't appear to be directed in a consistent direction. The interior has little cohesion or flow. The multiple colors and angles are offensive to the eye.

I guess that is subjective to the person who is looking at, like most art is. I think that the interior has a very nice flow, and that its lines are very modern.


NICE
The new interior really offers quite a lot for the tech lover / gimmick lover / gadget lover. In fact once again I feel it offers more than any car I've seen at a similar price point.

CRITICAL
Since when has Camaro's interior been about pomp and circumstance / gimmicks and gadgets? IMO this car has always been focused on getting the job done better than anyone on the street but with a blue color - no frills - just the facts ma'am approach. This interior has lost that focus. Do I think the car should be an engine in a box with a milk crate to sit on? Heck no, but the gadget guys always had Corvette and Cadillac to scratch their gimmick itch.


Yes, but GM must adapt to the consumer as well as several other points.
Camaro HAS had many major gadgets before. My 87 has auto dimming rear view mirror, as well as a host of other little 80's gizmos that GM put in the car which IMO makes the car better.
Ford is also doing this same thing with teh Mustang, offering more neat-o stuff to allow the car to grow and be attractive to more people.
Cheaper compact cars are offering this stuff, but because Camaro is Camaro, does that mean they should neglect this MASSIVE consumer electronic driven market that is growing every day? Bluetooth phones, iPods in everyones hands, Sat Nav units in cars like the CIVIC!!
Why should you force people into another car, when Camaro can fill that void? An affordable sports coupe with the gizmos that you would want without spending luxury car prices?



NICE
The interior offers some heritage bits for those who never got to experience a first gen of their own.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately some of the heritage baked into this thing is not necessarily going to make for a better car. For some, this car is going to be bought in spite of those features. Some will have to tolerate and adjust to those features if they want the car. Tolerate? Adjust? Camaro is supposed to be about the driver. Not vice versa.


I dont see what people will have to tolerate about? If you dont like it, dont buy it. Chyrsler makes a boring LX interior for someone not to complain about, or you can live with the Land-O-Plastic Mustang, its your choice. Im sure that not EVERYONE is gunna like the interior, but people get over it. Example. I dont like the 4th gen interior. For being newwer then my 87, it feels older, has bigger pannel gaps,a nd feels cheaper then my 21 year old car. I dont like the tremendus rake of the windshield, the 2 acers of rolling dash pannel, the list goes on. I didnt buy one.
But Im sure some people out there had sat in a 4th gen, loved the way it looked, loved how it felt, but not everyone is gunna fall in either catagory. There is a large middle ground.


NICE
The interior is certainly unique and fresh with a style all it's own. No half hearted garden variety econo car interior there.

CRITICAL
Unfortunately what is unique and fresh does not always withstand the test of time. What do the leisure suit / bell bottom wearers of the '70s, parachute pants / acid washed jeans wearers of the '80s, and fluorescent colored clothing / spandex wearers of the early 90's think of those unique and fresh styles now? Clean, simple, effective and tasteful is usually going to endure much better than unique and fresh.


Cars are a reflection of a time in history, and Camaro has been that way since its inception. Its first design followed the Chevy muscle car lineup, 3 box design like the Nova and Chevelle. Its interior followed that same feel, and was designed by the same people for that type of generation.
In the 2nd gen, the car was designed like the European GT cars from Ferrari. Its interior reflected it as well, being a big more simplistic, as the guages were mounted in front of you, its dash being a bit more streamlinend.
As the third gens hit, it took on the 80's classic sharp lines and big look, as did its interior. Its interior carried a new look, something fitting of the time. Its sharp lines matched those of the exterior.
With the 4th gens, the car took on a more futureistic look, being sleeker, lower, and faster. Its interior followed that with swooping lines, curved interior parts, and flowing cockpit design.
The 5th gen brings in a new era, the modern retro design which is popular today with its rivals. It harks back to previous versions creating a visuall masterpiece. The interior also brings this to the forfront with its very appealing and retro interior. Its simple yet modern look is very functional, with additional guages, easy to use radio and hvac controls, and 2 big guage pods sitting in front of you, giving you the info you need. Its sculped door pannels are modern and attractive, with its metalic insert stretching across the dash to the other door pannel.
I think that this interior is as modern as anything else out there, as well as modern as the car itself, while carrying a retro look that is timeless.

Mind you there are a lot of people that don't like that just won't post for fear of getting called a 'non fan' or 'troll'

I think some here are taking an isolated instance (involving Z284ever) and inflating it into a 'trend'. There's no shortage of folks continuing to post their critiques since the drama a few days ago with him. Has anyone else been confronted like he was? NO. This site is VERY tolerant of such things, much moreso than others I know of. It's good when people are free to debate, as they are here. All FBF did was confront what was clearly not the positions of a Camaro enthusiast. You'll notice, Z284ever is still able to buy a new Camaro once they appear... and he is still able to post here, which he has since. He's still welcome here.

I also think some who are feeling intimidated about complaining about the new Camaro's perceived foibles, maybe have good reason to feel that way. Why? It's clear they will not go unchallenged by those here who really love what we are seeing in the new Camaro and how it's shaping up to be a major success. There are any number of sites that non-fans and Camaro cynics can go participate in, and find a sympathetic audience of others throwing up their hands and rolling their eyes about the new Camaro. This site should not be, and is not, one of them.
I too am curious as to the ammount of blind faith in the product versus who actually likes it.
I have a lot of faith in how the new Camaro is turning out. But 'blind faith'? No. It's based on several things... GM's history at pleasing so many muscle car owners (heck INVENTING the muscle car with the 1964 GTO)... recent significant value performance cars like the LS1 FBody and LS2 GTO... GM's resurgence as a producer of world-class quality and designs... and the opinions/insights of trusted members here (yes including Fbodfather). So I have a lot of faith... but it is by no means 'blind'.
But again, it really doesn't matter how many people like it....it's how many people will actually BUY it. It all comes down to signing on the dotted line, and more people than often are all talk.

I'm sure it'll do well...
but me personally I don't like the interior or layout.
But that's just me.
All that people here are asking, of those interested in the Camaro, is to give it a fair chance. Just wait until you can drive one, and try it out. At that point, I do agree, I believe it will do well :bow:

I guess that is subjective to the person who is looking at, like most art is. I think that the interior has a very nice flow, and that its lines are very modern.



Yes, but GM must adapt to the consumer as well as several other points.
Camaro HAS had many major gadgets before. My 87 has auto dimming rear view mirror, as well as a host of other little 80's gizmos that GM put in the car which IMO makes the car better.
Ford is also doing this same thing with teh Mustang, offering more neat-o stuff to allow the car to grow and be attractive to more people.
Cheaper compact cars are offering this stuff, but because Camaro is Camaro, does that mean they should neglect this MASSIVE consumer electronic driven market that is growing every day? Bluetooth phones, iPods in everyones hands, Sat Nav units in cars like the CIVIC!!
Why should you force people into another car, when Camaro can fill that void? An affordable sports coupe with the gizmos that you would want without spending luxury car prices?




I dont see what people will have to tolerate about? If you dont like it, dont buy it. Chyrsler makes a boring LX interior for someone not to complain about, or you can live with the Land-O-Plastic Mustang, its your choice. Im sure that not EVERYONE is gunna like the interior, but people get over it. Example. I dont like the 4th gen interior. For being newwer then my 87, it feels older, has bigger pannel gaps,a nd feels cheaper then my 21 year old car. I dont like the tremendus rake of the windshield, the 2 acers of rolling dash pannel, the list goes on. I didnt buy one.
But Im sure some people out there had sat in a 4th gen, loved the way it looked, loved how it felt, but not everyone is gunna fall in either catagory. There is a large middle ground.



Cars are a reflection of a time in history, and Camaro has been that way since its inception. Its first design followed the Chevy muscle car lineup, 3 box design like the Nova and Chevelle. Its interior followed that same feel, and was designed by the same people for that type of generation.
In the 2nd gen, the car was designed like the European GT cars from Ferrari. Its interior reflected it as well, being a big more simplistic, as the guages were mounted in front of you, its dash being a bit more streamlinend.
As the third gens hit, it took on the 80's classic sharp lines and big look, as did its interior. Its interior carried a new look, something fitting of the time. Its sharp lines matched those of the exterior.
With the 4th gens, the car took on a more futureistic look, being sleeker, lower, and faster. Its interior followed that with swooping lines, curved interior parts, and flowing cockpit design.
The 5th gen brings in a new era, the modern retro design which is popular today with its rivals. It harks back to previous versions creating a visuall masterpiece. The interior also brings this to the forfront with its very appealing and retro interior. Its simple yet modern look is very functional, with additional guages, easy to use radio and hvac controls, and 2 big guage pods sitting in front of you, giving you the info you need. Its sculped door pannels are modern and attractive, with its metalic insert stretching across the dash to the other door pannel.
I think that this interior is as modern as anything else out there, as well as modern as the car itself, while carrying a retro look that is timeless.
Great summary Al! I thought Chewbacca's balanced analysis was interesting, but I do agree with your comments. (Except only partially agree with the 4gen dislike - I eventually learned to like the 4gen interior).

I think a lot are overlooking some key things you pointed out above... such as public demand for modern features like XM, remote start, and interior style such as exhibited in the new Camaro's interior door panels and door pull handles.

As we throttle the same dead subjective horse, maybe I can share what I look for in a car's interior.

1- Can I achieve a good driving position with good angles of my body and limbs which will allow good wheel and pedal technique?

2- Are the pedals layed out where heel and toe shifting is possible?

3-Is the shifter a good height and intuatively located without having to visually locate it?

4- Is there provision to quickly and conveniently check the engine vitals which are important?

5- Are the belts attatched in places that assure I can wear them tightly and comfortably?

6-Does the seating position which works for me allow me to see everything outside the vehicle I will need to see?

I like an aestheticlly pleasing interior and don't see anything in the new Camaro that doesn't fit the bill... but we can agree thats subjective.

My short list above is the objective side for me. The "must do list".

Drivers are working on the Camaro. I'm confident my objective list will be met.

I think some here are taking an isolated instance (involving Z284ever) and inflating it into a 'trend'. There's no shortage of folks continuing to post their critiques since the drama a few days ago with him. Has anyone else been confronted like he was? NO. This site is VERY tolerant of such things, much moreso than others I know of. It's good when people are free to debate, as they are here. All FBF did was confront what was clearly not the positions of a Camaro enthusiast. You'll notice, Z284ever is still able to buy a new Camaro once they appear... and he is still able to post here, which he has since. He's still welcome here.



I choose to post here because:

1) Jason says I'm still welcomed here.

2) I'm willing to take the monolithic, group think, flak, (yes even from FBF, it's not the first time, probably won't be the last time), because the Camaro is so important to me.

But privately, people have told me that they just don't want to post their opinions here anymore, because of the attacks they'll face. And that's a fact.

In an effort to be non confrontational to those in love with the car's interior, I'm going to try the say something nice / say something critical approach....

KISS @SS
It really looks like the design team put a great deal of effort into this interior. Much more than I've ever seen for a car at this price point.

CONCERN
Unfortunately that great effort doesn't appear to be directed in a consistent direction. The interior has little cohesion or flow. The multiple colors and angles are offensive to the eye.

KISS @SS
The new interior really offers quite a lot for the tech lover / gimmick lover / gadget lover. In fact once again I feel it offers more than any car I've seen at a similar price point.

CONCERN
Since when has Camaro's interior been about pomp and circumstance / gimmicks and gadgets? IMO this car has always been focused on getting the job done better than anyone on the street but with a blue color - no frills - just the facts ma'am approach. This interior has lost that focus. Do I think the car should be an engine in a box with a milk crate to sit on? Heck no, but the gadget guys always had Corvette and Cadillac to scratch their gimmick itch.

KISS @SS
The interior offers some heritage bits for those who never got to experience a first gen of their own.

CONCERN
Unfortunately some of the heritage baked into this thing is not necessarily going to make for a better car. For some, this car is going to be bought in spite of those features. Some will have to tolerate and adjust to those features if they want the car. Tolerate? Adjust? Camaro is supposed to be about the driver. Not vice versa.

KISS @SS
The interior is certainly unique and fresh with a style all it's own. No half hearted garden variety econo car interior there.

CONCERN
Unfortunately what is unique and fresh does not always withstand the test of time. What do the leisure suit / bell bottom wearers of the '70s, parachute pants / acid washed jeans wearers of the '80s, and fluorescent colored clothing / spandex wearers of the early 90's think of those unique and fresh styles now? Clean, simple, effective and tasteful is usually going to endure much better than unique and fresh.

KISS @SS
The unique and fresh and interior has certainly brought a lot of new first time Camaro buyers into the picture.

CONCERN
This level of "new" love for the interior may not be sustained for very long, at least not for the life of the model. Why? Because the unique and fresh lovers always move onto the next unique and fresh thing. Will a more business like "fighter pilot" type interior be needed to sustain sales and welcome back those alienated by the current interior? With regard to sales levels in the long term, would that more business like interior have been a better choice in the first place?



My not so humble opinion of course. :D



Fixed it for ya.....;)

Seriously, most of the guys on this board will not buy a brand new 5th gen because you can't afford it but you still want to have an impact on the development and direction of the car. Fine but how will GM benefit financially from your point of view?

Many of you guys who love absolutely everything about the car cannot distinguish between trashing something and being objective with the desire to ensure that GM hits a home run. That is where many of the critisisms are coming from. I love my 4th gens but there are things I hate about the cars (PW motors come to mind :;).

And at the risk of getting my post deleted, what gives someone or two guys the right to call themselves "The Kings of Camaros" when they may not even own a Camaro let alone have any knowledge about them prior to 1993? :eek:

All that people here are asking, of those interested in the Camaro, is to give it a fair chance. Just wait until you can drive one, and try it out. At that point, I do agree, I believe it will do well :bow:

Many of us who own many Camaros (I own at least 2 from each generation) know better than 99.9% of the members on this website what a Camaro should be based on our experience with them. If I have concerns with the direction this car is going, I am going to speak out before the product gets to market, not after. Waiting until the car comes out to voice your concerns is too little, too late afaiac.

I choose to post here because:

1) Jason says I'm still welcomed here.

2) I'm willing to take the monolithic, group think, flak, (yes even from FBF, it's not the first time, probably won't be the last time), because the Camaro is so important to me.

But privately, people have told me that they just don't want to post their opinions here anymore, because of the attacks they'll face. And that's a fact.
It's not 'private' if you post it out there for everyone's consumption. And as can be seen right here in this thread, there has been no decrease in willingness by some to post their objections. So despite what a few of your pals may have 'privately' told you, it's already been refuted by evidence clearly visible.

And referring to the widespread admiration of both the new Camaro concept, and the production Camaro pix already officially released, as 'group think'... well that speaks volumes as an illustration of the cynicism I was talking about. If millions of people enjoy Coca-Cola because it tastes good, is that also 'group think'?

It's not 'private' if you post it out there for everyone's consumption. And as can be seen right here in this thread, there has been no decrease in willingness by some to post their objections. So despite what a few of your pals may have 'privately' told you, it's already been refuted by evidence clearly visible.

And referring to the widespread admiration of both the new Camaro concept, and the production Camaro pix already officially released, as 'group think'... well that speaks volumes as an illustration of the cynicism I was talking about. If millions of people enjoy Coca-Cola because it tastes good, is that also 'group think'?


You just proved my point better than me.

Your Honor. I rest my case....

Many of us who own many Camaros (I own at least 2 from each generation) know better than 99.9% of the members on this website what a Camaro should be based on our experience with them. If I have concerns with the direction this car is going, I am going to speak out before the product gets to market, not after. Waiting until the car comes out to voice your concerns is too little, too late afaiac.
I can relate to this approach. The thinking is, let's make our opinions known now, so GM can re-shape and change the car before it's released. But it goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding, IMO. Cars are not designed and fielded strictly 'by poll'. Carmakers definitely DO take inputs, and do clinics with potential customers. But ultimately, it's the carmaker who designs the car, and bears ALL the risk for its success. If the new Camaro were to flop (very unlikely)... you and I could just walk away shaking our heads. GM would be out Millions or even Billions of $$. You can rest assured they have done everything in their power to ensure the car is a hit. HOWEVER. They cannot, and SHOULD not, continually revise and tweak, especially now that so much of the car is ALREADY designed, to try and please every last possible customer posting opinions on the web (who are incidentally, posting from a conveniently anonymous perch). That should be obvious by now to folks. Actually I think it is, but some continue to gripe repeatedly, for the sake of grandstanding or to alleviate chronic frustrations. If someone really dislikes the way the new Camaro is heading - and is already sure they will not like how it drives - well maybe it's time for them to move on instead of trying to change the shape of planet Earth via Internet forum posts. But we don't really know a lot about this production car yet - especially features, pricing and most importantly, how it DRIVES. I would think that data needs to be gathered before anyone truly interested in a new Camaro makes their decision.

Part of it is the old squeaky wheel syndrom. More people are likely to complain when they don't like something that people are likely to praise something because they like it.

I'm not in love with the interior either. Yet I am witholding most of my most critical complaints until I see the actual production car. Why? Because people are getting their panties in a bunch over the little things, some of which may not make production. Besides, at this point there's not much we're going to see changed in year one. Perhaps some small minute details, but the majority of the layout and functions are locked in. Therefore the things I don't like are not likely to be changed in the 2010MY... even if I post how much I hate them day in and day out. Once we see the final product, then is the time for us to voice what we like/don't like so GM can work it in for 2011 and 2012 production. (I'm beginning to agree with Charlie that the 5th gen may be short lived.)

IMHO, there's no point in getting worked up over some blurry/out of focus photos on the internet of a pre-production prototype that isn't finished. Its like looking at a picture of your birthday cake before the icing is on it and complaining that you won't eat it. I'll wait until I see the car in person before I really say what I like/dislike about the interior. Right now I'm just excited that the Camaro is coming back... and soon! :D

I can relate to this approach. The thinking is, let's make our opinions known now, so GM can re-shape and change the car before it's released. But it goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding, IMO. Cars are not designed and fielded strictly 'by poll'. Carmakers definitely DO take inputs, and do clinics with potential customers. But ultimately, it's the carmaker who designs the car, and bears ALL the risk for its success. If the new Camaro were to flop (very unlikely)... you and I could just walk away shaking our heads. GM would be out Millions or even Billions of $$. You can rest assured they have done everything in their power to ensure the car is a hit. HOWEVER. They cannot, and SHOULD not, continually revise and tweak, especially now that so much of the car is ALREADY designed, to try and please every last possible customer posting opinions on the web (who are incidentally, posting from a conveniently anonymous perch). That should be obvious by now to folks. Actually I think it is, but some continue to gripe repeatedly, for the sake of grandstanding or to alleviate chronic frustrations. If someone really dislikes the way the new Camaro is heading - and is already sure they will not like how it drives - well maybe it's time for them to move on instead of trying to change the shape of planet Earth via Internet forum posts. But we don't really know a lot about this production car yet - especially features, pricing and most importantly, how it DRIVES. I would think that data needs to be gathered before anyone truly interested in a new Camaro makes their decision.

It doesn't matter if you are talking about a car or a the latest hamburger at Wendy's. If your customers do not like it, your customers will not buy it. Talking to true users of a product or service is what will help a company deliver the correct product.

To say that engineers should just ignore the public and build whatever they think will be a hit borders on autocracy. Build it and stick them with it whether they like it or not.

..... Right now I'm just excited that the Camaro is coming back... and soon! :D


And therein lies the heart of the matter - what is "The Camaro"? Is it just a name or is it an experience based on many things? If it is the latter, what might those things be? You may reply by saying it is different things to different people to which I have to disagree having experienced all types of Camaros.

It doesn't matter if you are talking about a car or a the latest hamburger at Wendy's. If your customers do not like it, your customers will not buy it. Talking to true users of a product or service is what will help a company deliver the correct product.

To say that engineers should just ignore the public and build whatever they think will be a hit borders on autocracy. Build it and stick them with it whether they like it or not.
Clearly you did not read my entire post. Carmakers do, and should, consider customer inputs. Chevy has done so. Anyone who thinks that such 'outreach' needs to incorporate EVERY single customer input into the design, at any arbitrary point in the design and production release cycle, is out of touch with reality IMO.

Clearly you did not read my entire post. Carmakers do, and should, consider customer inputs. Chevy has done so. Anyone who thinks that such 'outreach' needs to incorporate EVERY single customer input into the design, at any arbitrary point in the design and production release cycle, is out of touch with reality IMO.

No - I did read your entire post. I do not know of anyone here that expects GM to make changes just because they voice an opinion or concern that is different.

And therein lies the heart of the matter - what is "The Camaro"? Is it just a name or is it an experience based on many things? If it is the latter, what might those things be? You may reply by saying it is different things to different people to which I have to disagree having experienced all types of Camaros.I agree and disagree with you. :D

You're right, the Camaro has come in different types. Compare interiors across generations and you'll hardly find any real similarities. In the first generation you could purchase a Camaro with a bench seat. However I suspect that if GM were to make a split bench available today, most folks would freak out and say where's my center console?

Its called evolution my friend. There are many that say this Camaro is retro. I personally have never used that term. And although one can see the inspiration of the 1st gen Camaros in this one, imho it is simply asnine to say its a just a modern day recreation of a 69 Camaro. Hense we have an evolved european style interior with inspiration from the past.

Yes, I wish certain things are different, however I will withold final judgement until I see the final product in person and have a chance to sit behind the wheel. Case in point. I absolutely loved the HHR when I saw the concept. I loved the 50's retro styling (I used to have a '51 Chevy 3100 pickup so I also liked the SSR) and couldn't wait to see one in person. I was even considering purchasing one. Then I got a chance to drive one at Autoshow In Motion. I hated it. It looked great on the outside, but everything was simply wrong for me when I got behind the wheel. Incidentally I also drove an SSR that day and loved it. (The only thing I hated about it was the sticker price.) Therefore, until I can sit inside a production Camaro and get a feel for what its like behind the wheel, I'll save my most critical comments. :p

I hope that the interior is color keyed, and we're not stuck with the "Orange Glo" that the Concept had. It was neat, but tiring on the eyes..

And therein lies the heart of the matter - what is "The Camaro"?
You're right.
Unless you really know what Camaro was, how can you know what it is?
You can't.

You may know what sounds ; neat, cool, exciting...but not necessarily Camaro.

If you've only drivien Honda's, Toyota's or other econo boxes, sport compacts etc...you have no idea.

Even if you've own one Camaro for a while, you just have a glimmer of what it means...IMHO.

I can't even describe the feeling of pride and connection of owning and driving my Camaro's...of getting out of it in a parking lot, and looking back several times, smiling on my way in to a store.

I hope that the interior is color keyed, and we're not stuck with the "Orange Glo" that the Concept had. It was neat, but tiring on the eyes..I'm hoping for black & white houndstooth. :D

No - I did read your entire post. I do not know of anyone here that expects GM to make changes just because they voice an opinion or concern that is different.
If that's true - why do they post their criticisms over and over?

If that's true - why do they post their criticisms over and over?

Maybe because you provoke them continuously? :think:

If that's true - why do they post their criticisms over and over?

I would quote all the times they have said the same thing and ask them how many more times are they planning on repeating themselves.

Maybe because you provoke them continuously? :think:So starting a new thread to rehash the same thing being discussed in another thread is being provoked? :rolleyes:

....There are many that say this Camaro is retro. I personally have never used that term. And although one can see the inspiration of the 1st gen Camaros in this one, imho it is simply asnine to say its a just a modern day recreation of a 69 Camaro....

So true!

....Yes, I wish certain things are different, however I will withold final judgement until I see the final product in person and have a chance to sit behind the wheel. Case in point. I absolutely loved the HHR when I saw the concept. I loved the 50's retro styling (I used to have a '51 Chevy 3100 pickup so I also liked the SSR) and couldn't wait to see one in person. I was even considering purchasing one. Then I got a chance to drive one at Autoshow In Motion. I hated it. It looked great on the outside, but everything was simply wrong for me when I got behind the wheel. Incidentally I also drove an SSR that day and loved it. (The only thing I hated about it was the sticker price.) Therefore, until I can sit inside a production Camaro and get a feel for what its like behind the wheel, I'll save my most critical comments. :p

Here's where we differ. I believe your opinion is important and that any concerns you are thinking about now should at least be made public. Maybe someone on the development team is thinking the same thing as you or your thought may trigger a new idea.

Coming up with a new product is not 'black and white'. Success comes from trial and error (as in trying out things) and many different ideas are passed back and forth before final decisions are made. We all know three different design studios came up with their idea of what the 5th gen should be and only one studio came out on top. God knows what would have happened if someone just said, let's go with the European clay model. :barf:

Here's where we differ. I believe your opinion is important and that any concerns you are thinking about now should at least be made public. Maybe someone on the development team is thinking the same thing as you or your thought may trigger a new idea.

Coming up with a new product is not 'black and white'. Success comes from trial and error (as in trying out things) and many different ideas are passed back and forth before final decisions are made. We all know three different design studios came up with their idea of what the 5th gen should be and only one studio came out on top. God knows what would have happened if someone just said, let's go with the European clay model. :barf:In that case. I love the console and console guages, but imho the center stack sucks! Better? :D

So starting a new thread to rehash the same thing being discussed in another thread is being provoked? :rolleyes:
Indeed, and I appreciate you pointing that out. I didn't start this thread. I even suggested (see post #11), I thought in a neutral and nonprovocative way, that we just let it go. Instead, members have proceeded to make what I consider inaccurate and/or illogical statements, which I do believe I have a right to discuss.
Maybe because you provoke them continuously?
Review this train-wreck of a thread. It began with an ambiguous and insubordinate tone... then turned into a name-tossing contest. I don't respond directly to such juvenile taunts (not even being called a "Propaganda Minister" :rolleyes: ) since I prefer to stay on-topic. Besides, such taunts are just about always a signal that those making the taunts have no refuge in logic. Often it seems to us who DO like the car, that WE are the ones being oppressed here.
I would quote all the times they have said the same thing and ask them how many more times are they planning on repeating themselves.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Do you want to do this? Actually there's a condensed collection of opinions on the interior, over in the 'interior' forum herein. CLEAN's poll shows the interior, as we know it now, is already favored more than two to one. This despite all the limits of such surveys, and before people have even seen the production interior, seen its full feature set or pricing, or (heaven forbid!) operated it. So - should GM remake the interior for 27% (a whopping grand total of SIXTEEN people) of an internet forum? (It will almost certainly be much less than 27% upon showroom release). If not - then what's the point of this dead-horse beating?

I dont think that anyone is wrong on how they see Camaro, its each individual's personal tie in to the car. And this is where passion overloads realism.

Take good old Charlie here. I have met Charlie, and by far one of the nicest guys I have ever met. He has a cool Chicago accent, and loves his Camaros. Thing with Charlie is, he has a very strong, dare I say stubornness, about what he wants his Camaro to be. He has an idea of what it should be, as we all do. Some of us, like myself also have a strong feeling of what we want it to be, but we realize that Camaro is many things, and that this car represents a total gathering of common ideas, traits and loves of the car. While the 79 Camaro was the best selling year, they didnt go with the 79, or 84 year car. They went with the most popular, most wanted Camaro ever made, the 1969 Camaro body style, a unique car that lasted a year and a half. This follows with a lot of things on the car, as well as the interior.
We can all sit here, and post about how we want our 5th gen to be. We can all pick our perfect retro or modern design, we can all draw out our own interior design, our own trim levels, options, powertrains, suspensions set ups, down to colors and fabrics.
I am part of the anti-retro club.
I was not a 100% sold on the interior of the concept
The interior isnt EXACTLY how I would have wanted it. But the car DOES look good. Its interior does work for me, and GM pulled it off. Its not that im "settling" or "nut hugging" the interior.
Do I like it? Yeah, I do like it. Does it fit how I wanted the interior to look? No
Do I wish I could tweek it? yeah. Are the modern features a nice touch? Hell yes!
I think GM did a great job of making a very attractive car, both in and out. I think that there is room to improve, there are things that can be done, but there are things that I wanted to see that I know I wont.
What would I have wanted from a 5th gen? A modern sleek GT car, to mimic cars like the Ferrari 612 and 599, the Aston DB9, Vantage and Vanquish, combined with muscular lines of the Corvette. I would have liked to see is an interior to follow that, a flowing dash board similar to maybe the Malibu's with a different IP. Give me the hood with twin guages, surounded by additional info. Id like to have a sloping waterfall like center stack with an intergrated hvac and radio units, that go into a center console with a horseshoe shifter or stick.
I bet you that out of all the active 5th gen members, that maybe 2-3 of you would really dig that idea. The rest will laugh and call me names. Its just an example of how everyone views this car differently, and everyone has this passion for the car.
Passion gets in the way of reality. What we have is a hell of a beautiful car, a real show stopper. Muscular lines meet beautiful sheet metal. An interior that is simplistic and modern, making you secure and feeling in control. The real test, the thing that will make this all moot, is the drive. That first time we strap it on, turn the key, and take her out. If she drives like dog sh*t, then you could have had Pininfarina design the car, with leather covering everything, and it wouldnt sell a single unit.

I dont think that anyone is wrong on how they see Camaro, its each individual's personal tie in to the car. And this is where passion overloads realism....

What we have is a hell of a beautiful car, a real show stopper. Muscular lines meet beautiful sheet metal. An interior that is simplistic and modern, making you secure and feeling in control. The real test, the thing that will make this all moot, is the drive. That first time we strap it on, turn the key, and take her out. If she drives like dog sh*t, then you could have had Pininfarina design the car, with leather covering everything, and it wouldnt sell a single unit.
Great post, Al. I agree with quite a lot of what you said (not just what's quoted above, just trying to save a little space). It gets back to a post in this thread too, by 1fastdog, who really focused on the performance and ergonomic aspects. People won't really know if the new Camaro is a hit FOR THEM until they can actually try one. Interiors aren't just modern art to hang on a wall... they are meant to be operated.

Great post, Al. I agree with quite a lot of what you said (not just what's quoted above, just trying to save a little space). It gets back to a post in this thread too, by 1fastdog, who really focused on the performance and ergonomic aspects. People won't really know if the new Camaro is a hit FOR THEM until they can actually try one. Interiors aren't just modern art to hang on a wall... they are meant to be operated.

Thats true, when I was loooking for a DD in the sub 20K range I wanted something 4 doors and sporty. Among the many cars I test drove I checked out a mazda 3i It had the 2.0l auto and I wanted to drive it off of a cliff before the 2nd block of the test drive. I liked the exterior and interior but I couldnt stand how it handled and delivered the power. I was about to walk out and the guy was like why do we just take out this Manual 3s and I was like ya right like itll be that much different..... turns out it was a completely different car! the suspension change made the car stiffer and more aggressive, power was much stronger down low. I was impressed and ended up buying two.... great little cars for the money.

Interior COMFORT is much more important to me than if it does or doesnt have a touque guage. I was watching topgear and Hugh Grant was on talking about how he had to trade in his bently because it made his back and balls hurt. Thats a serious problem!

This site is VERY tolerant of such things, much moreso than others I know of.

Lol, if you say so(things are relative). If this site is a bastion of tolerance I'd hate to see other F-body forums! I've been told point blank here if I dont like the kool-aid being passed around, to piss off (not in those concise words, but the intent was the same).

Btw, not a fan of the interior, would have prefered something more G8 or GTOish myself.

Hey...I want to throw this out there. For consideration among the "retro" = bad folks. I happen to agree, to a point. Being rather young, (19 currently) I have seen the '67s and '69s interiors before. So, I can see the hints of those cars in this interior...but I also see LOTS things that I'd consider modern, and new, that the older guys here might group together in the 'retro' category.

For example, the gauge cluster. Many of my time have not seen anything like that before. And I believe will see it as new and different (in a good way). However, I completely understand how that's a cue from the '69.

My point is, I think us younger buyers, not the baby boomers, will be scoffing up most of these cars as time progresses - and we will see many of the things in the interior (and exterior for that matter) as new, and VERY modern -- even though GM took distinctive cues from the 69 and updated them.

Lol, if you say so(things are relative). If this site is a bastion of tolerance I'd hate to see other F-body forums! I've been told point blank here if I dont like the kool-aid being passed around, to piss off (not in those concise words, but the intent was the same).

This site competes with www.camaro5.com , and www.5thgen.org , just to name two examples, for the attention of 5gen Camaro fans. Neither is as kind to Camaro cynics. Neither has the scope of this site either though, so maybe they aren't much of an issue here. But if a site like this were to open up any and all criticisms of the 5gen to whomever wants to post, it would drive passionate 5gen fans more to those sites. So doing some kind of 'pushback' to wide-open, repetitive 5gen criticism, seems reasonable to me :shrug:

In that case. I love the console and console guages, but imho the center stack sucks! Better? :D


Perfect! :D And I love your suggestion about the black & white houndstooth.

I dont think that anyone is wrong on how they see Camaro, its each individual's personal tie in to the car. And this is where passion overloads realism.

Take good old Charlie here. I have met Charlie, and by far one of the nicest guys I have ever met. He has a cool Chicago accent, and loves his Camaros. Thing with Charlie is, he has a very strong, dare I say stubornness, about what he wants his Camaro to be. He has an idea of what it should be, as we all do. Some of us, like myself also have a strong feeling of what we want it to be, but we realize that Camaro is many things, and that this car represents a total gathering of common ideas, traits and loves of the car. While the 79 Camaro was the best selling year, they didnt go with the 79, or 84 year car. They went with the most popular, most wanted Camaro ever made, the 1969 Camaro body style, a unique car that lasted a year and a half. This follows with a lot of things on the car, as well as the interior.
We can all sit here, and post about how we want our 5th gen to be. We can all pick our perfect retro or modern design, we can all draw out our own interior design, our own trim levels, options, powertrains, suspensions set ups, down to colors and fabrics.
I am part of the anti-retro club.
I was not a 100% sold on the interior of the concept
The interior isnt EXACTLY how I would have wanted it. But the car DOES look good. Its interior does work for me, and GM pulled it off. Its not that im "settling" or "nut hugging" the interior.
Do I like it? Yeah, I do like it. Does it fit how I wanted the interior to look? No
Do I wish I could tweek it? yeah. Are the modern features a nice touch? Hell yes!
I think GM did a great job of making a very attractive car, both in and out. I think that there is room to improve, there are things that can be done, but there are things that I wanted to see that I know I wont.
What would I have wanted from a 5th gen? A modern sleek GT car, to mimic cars like the Ferrari 612 and 599, the Aston DB9, Vantage and Vanquish, combined with muscular lines of the Corvette. I would have liked to see is an interior to follow that, a flowing dash board similar to maybe the Malibu's with a different IP. Give me the hood with twin guages, surounded by additional info. Id like to have a sloping waterfall like center stack with an intergrated hvac and radio units, that go into a center console with a horseshoe shifter or stick.
I bet you that out of all the active 5th gen members, that maybe 2-3 of you would really dig that idea. The rest will laugh and call me names. Its just an example of how everyone views this car differently, and everyone has this passion for the car.
Passion gets in the way of reality. What we have is a hell of a beautiful car, a real show stopper. Muscular lines meet beautiful sheet metal. An interior that is simplistic and modern, making you secure and feeling in control. The real test, the thing that will make this all moot, is the drive. That first time we strap it on, turn the key, and take her out. If she drives like dog sh*t, then you could have had Pininfarina design the car, with leather covering everything, and it wouldnt sell a single unit.

I agree with your point but again, what is "a Camaro"? 1979, 1984 and '01 (for that matter) all provided us with "a Camaro". As different as all the previous models were, they all still managed to capture the essence of the car. I would expect opinions to have come from an experience of one of the previous models.

The real test, the thing that will make this all moot, is the drive. That first time we strap it on, turn the key, and take her out. If she drives like dog sh*t, then you could have had Pininfarina design the car, with leather covering everything, and it wouldnt sell a single unit.

Uhh - ever drive a Countach? ;)

This site competes with www.camaro5.com , and www.5thgen.org , just to name two examples, for the attention of 5gen Camaro fans. Neither is as kind to Camaro cynics. Neither has the scope of this site either though, so maybe they aren't much of an issue here. But if a site like this were to open up any and all criticisms of the 5gen to whomever wants to post, it would drive passionate 5gen fans more to those sites. So doing some kind of 'pushback' to wide-open, repetitive 5gen criticism, seems reasonable to me :shrug:

One thing I do enjoy is the difference of opinion here on this site. Whenever there are views which differ from my own, I like to step back and think about it a bit more. Maybe it will make me change my mind, maybe not. If everyone thought the same thing (or things were severely moderated as such) then we would be a pretty bland bunch of guys and gals.

I'm a mod over on Camaro5. And with respect to BDF :p, it's not that "we aren't kind to cynics". Quite the contrary, I personally welcome different opinions for just the reasons you stated, Hylton....but after a while, once it becomes painfully obvious that somebody's just a hater - We don't have the patience to deal with that (it makes for a more pleasant atmosphere if the 'stink' is gone, you know?)

Uhh - ever drive a Countach? ;)

No, but that law doesnt apply to cars over 150k, nor the people that buy them.

As for "what is a Camaro?" it will always vary from who you talk to. I remember a time when 4th genners looked down on third gen's, and im sure those IROC guys in the 80's were knockin the 150hp 350's in the late 2nd gens, and the early 2nd gen Z28 guys were laughing at the first gen guys.
I personally think that the 4th gen became a bit too far to the enthusiast side. It started with the IROC third gens, making performance and handling and bringing that tot he forfront while sacraficing ergonomics and comfort.
4th gen's sleek style took a bigger bite into the ergonomics which gave some people the wrong feeling about the car.
We all do realize that the 15 or so that make up the core Camaro team probably had these long meetings, discussing what is and what isnt Camaro. We can all sit here and try to figure out what would make a hell of a car, but we can do that till we are blue in the face, and I bet we couldnt come up with a car as awesome as the 5th gen is going to be.

Take good old Charlie here. I have met Charlie, and by far one of the nicest guys I have ever met. He has a cool Chicago accent, and loves his Camaros. Thing with Charlie is, he has a very strong, dare I say stubornness, about what he wants his Camaro to be. He has an idea of what it should be, as we all do. .

Thanks Al, and guilty as charged. I am EXTREMELY picky about the Camaro. I know that. Everyone who knows me, knows that. Can't help it.

If the Challenger comes in at 4100 pounds, oh well. If the Camaro does, I'll bust a blood vessel.

If the Corvette's steering doesn't feel perfectly weighted, better luck next time, but on the Camaro, it better be darned near perfect.

If the Mustang comes with an ugly interior, it sucks to be them, but if the Camaro does, I'm bitchin' up a storm.
And that's that.

The Camaro is important to me. Really important. I want it just right.

BTW Al, I thought YOU were the one with the accent... ;)

I'm a mod over on Camaro5. And with respect to BDF :p, it's not that "we aren't kind to cynics". Quite the contrary, I personally welcome different opinions for just the reasons you stated, Hylton....but after a while, once it becomes painfully obvious that somebody's just a hater - We don't have the patience to deal with that (it makes for a more pleasant atmosphere if the 'stink' is gone, you know?)
Point taken. And you are right, Camaro5 is not a place where dissent is quashed without mercy.
One thing I do enjoy is the difference of opinion here on this site. Whenever there are views which differ from my own, I like to step back and think about it a bit more. Maybe it will make me change my mind, maybe not. If everyone thought the same thing (or things were severely moderated as such) then we would be a pretty bland bunch of guys and gals.
I agree it's good to have meaningful, even passionate debate - and this thread itself is evidence it's tolerated by this site. It's the repetition of 5gen criticisms, that I think bores and turns people away. Worse, when people have an outright 'doom and gloom' attitude about the car and it's outlook... well that is the very essence of someone who is not a 5gen Camaro enthusiast. Notice, I said '5gen Camaro enthusiast'... because I believe that it's possible for someone (not necessarily you Hylton) to be a Camaro enthusiast in general, but still be cynical and negative about the 5gen. What should this site do when such folk bash the 5gen and its potential for success? I believe they've done the right thing, and that's not to shun or ban them, but to simply ask them to post politely when here in the 'camaroz28.com garage'.

I'm a mod over on Camaro5. And with respect to BDF :p, it's not that "we aren't kind to cynics". Quite the contrary, I personally welcome different opinions for just the reasons you stated, Hylton....but after a while, once it becomes painfully obvious that somebody's just a hater - We don't have the patience to deal with that (it makes for a more pleasant atmosphere if the 'stink' is gone, you know?)

Well if you can recognize the difference then I agree with removing 'the stink'.

Point taken. And you are right, Camaro5 is not a place where dissent is quashed without mercy.

I agree it's good to have meaningful, even passionate debate - and this thread itself is evidence it's tolerated by this site. It's the repetition of 5gen criticisms, that I think bores and turns people away. Worse, when people have an outright 'doom and gloom' attitude about the car and it's outlook... well that is the very essence of someone who is not a 5gen Camaro enthusiast. Notice, I said '5gen Camaro enthusiast'... because I believe that it's possible for someone (not necessarily you Hylton) to be a Camaro enthusiast in general, but still be cynical and negative about the 5gen. What should this site do when such folk bash the 5gen and its potential for success? I believe they've done the right thing, and that's not to shun or ban them, but to simply ask them to post politely when here in the 'camaroz28.com garage'.

I believe the last few pages of this thread are proof that we can have a great discussion about something and have different views but still be respectful (we're only missing the damn beer :cry:). With respect to the jerks you speak of, I think you identify the times where they have continuously been cynical and send them to banned camp for a month.

I believe the last few pages of this thread are proof that we can have a great discussion about something and have different views but still be respectful (we're only missing the damn beer :cry:). With respect to the jerks you speak of, I think you identify the times where they have continuously been cynical and send them to banned camp for a month.

I owe you one beer, and salute your entire bunch of Camaros! :bow:

I owe you one beer, and salute your entire bunch of Camaros! :bow:

I will buy you all one when we get together. :D

::arrives late to party::

Sorry, but no. The issue of a "retro" interior is secondary if not tertiary on my list of problems with it. I would have little problem with a retro interior that was at all attractive.

You say that a modern interior wouldn't make sense in the context of the car?

Perhaps, but as yet, half the interior pieces don't make sense in the context of the interior. :confused: There is a total mishmash of a half dozen shapes, countours and angles. It's got obviously retro pieces next to pieces I shudder to call modern, and next to no sense of proportion or placing. Those are my issues, they're reasonable, and the fact that it's "retro" is no consolation for that fact that it's unnatractive. I'm sure there are a few of you who have fond memories of leaded gasoline but I don't see them bringing that back.

Of course, there is an off chance I'll climb in it and love it to death, that's the only reason I keep checking these threads. But in the mean time I'll post how I feel about it like everyone else. Who ever does or does not like it isn't the problem, nor is how eloquently it's stated. Reading "zOMGz i has wet myself," doesen't make me any smarter than, "It sucks," even if there are far more of the former.

The issue is that some people who do like it can't help but to take it personally when someone else disagrees, and respond with personal attacks. Likewise, some people have taken it upon themselves to be heroic defender of car's virtue, and carpet bombing threads with their opinion and their questionable arguements. It's tiring.

At this point, feelings are feelings and additional discourse isn't going to change them, but positive or negative, if you can't stand to read a difference of opinion without taking it as an afront to yourself, or launching a fullblown filibuster... It might be best for all parties involved to take a break.

::arrives late to party::

Sorry, but no. The issue of a "retro" interior is secondary if not tertiary on my list of problems with it. I would have little problem with a retro interior that was at all attractive.

You say that a modern interior wouldn't make sense in the context of the car?

Perhaps, but as yet, half the interior pieces don't make sense in the context of the interior. :confused: There is a total mishmash of a half dozen shapes, countours and angles. It's got obviously retro pieces next to pieces I shudder to call modern, and next to no sense of proportion or placing. Those are my issues, they're reasonable, and the fact that it's "retro" is no consolation for that fact that it's unnatractive. I'm sure there are a few of you who have fond memories of leaded gasoline but I don't see them bringing that back.

Of course, there is an off chance I'll climb in it and love it to death, that's the only reason I keep checking these threads.

ditto

Good Ph.D:

Half the interior pieces don't make sense? Mishmash of shapes and angles? I don't think I've ever seen a functional interior that wasn't a combination of different shapes and angles. It's the nature of the three planes, because everything can't be a circle, and because folks probably don't want square knobs.

I'm not an expert, but it takes a non-expert to know a non-expert I suppose. What are your design credentials? Can you point to specific changes that you could make to improve the interior?

Reading "zOMGz i has wet myself," doesen't make me any smarter than, "It sucks," even if there are far more of the former.

The issue is that some people who do like it can't help but to take it personally when someone else disagrees, and respond with personal attacks. Likewise, some people have taken it upon themselves to be heroic defender of car's virtue, and carpet bombing threads with their opinion and their questionable arguements. It's tiring.

At this point, feelings are feelings and additional discourse isn't going to change them, but positive or negative, if you can't stand to read a difference of opinion without taking it as an afront to yourself, or launching a fullblown filibuster... It might be best for all parties involved to take a break.

I like how "zOMGz i has wet myself" represents the comments of those who like it, but those who don't like it are represented by a simple and grammatically correct "it sucks." You complain about people having issues with you having issues, but I see that you have your own issues with people not having issues. Tiring, yes. For my part, you're more than welcome to take a very long break.

Sorry. This just rubbed me the wrong way.

Sorry. This just rubbed me the wrong way.

Case in point.

Originally Posted by samoht:
I'm not an expert, but it takes a non-expert to know a non-expert I suppose. What are your design credentials? Can you point to specific changes that you could make to improve the interior?
Can I?
I'm not an expert either, but I have had 2 years of Commercial Art & Design...if that counts.

1.)Probably go back to round shape gage bezels, with angled surfaces.

2.)Go with a modern take of the well defined, heritage center stacks from the first and early 2nd gens that the F5 gets most of its cues from. Including narrowing the center vents a tad to keep them in the stack. And somehow take the bulge out, to allow better view and more light to the console gages, since they're staying. Go with different HVAC controls that don't further protrude over the console gages.

3.)Take a more "buisness" oriented approach to the interior, particularly the "Z28". I like to feel a sense of POWER, siting in the pilot's seat. The rounded soft dash feels kinda feminine, and doesn't accurately reflect the exterior.

(These are some things that looking at pics over and over, bother me most.)

Can I?
I'm not an expert either, but I have had 2 years of Commercial Art & Design...if that counts.

1.)Probably go back to round shape gage bezels, with angled surfaces.

2.)Go with a modern take of the well defined, heritage center stacks from the first and early 2nd gens that the F5 gets most of its cues from. Including narrowing the center vents a tad to keep them in the stack. And somehow take the bulge out, to allow better view and more light to the console gages, since they're staying. Go with different HVAC controls that don't further protrude over the console gages.

3.)Take a more "buisness" oriented approach to the interior, particularly the "Z28". I like to feel a sense of POWER, siting in the pilot's seat. The rounded soft dash feels kinda feminine, and doesn't accurately reflect the exterior.

(These are some things that looking at pics over and over, bother me most.)

HOLY CRAP! That has to be the best post ive seen from someone that didnt like the interior! Those are great points! I would like to see the final product before I say that its feminine BUT I can at least see where your drawing your conclusions from. I to hope it screams muscle car but Im smart enough to know that GM wants to get women into the car so softening edges and making it less "manly" only makes sense.

Good post, much better than the typical "I hate everything", or "its crap", or :barf:.

2.)Go with a modern take of the well defined, heritage center stacks from the first and early 2nd gens that the F5 gets most of its cues from. Including narrowing the center vents a tad to keep them in the stack. And somehow take the bulge out, to allow better view and more light to the console gages, since they're staying. Go with different HVAC controls that don't further protrude over the console gages.

That's my main gripe. It's extremely clunky and has no grace or ease of transition what so ever, looks like they stuck a bunch blocks in glob of Play-Doh.

1. The dash needs to either be completely flush like in the concept, or it needs to have a defined full length center stack. Not having the vents flush with the dash while the radio and HVAC bulging out like a tumor.

2. Vents are way too big, and what's worse, they've got huge old school adjustment wheels floating in the middle of nowhere. The wheels should be integrated and the vents should probably get smaller, although the need for the latter could be eliminated if the above were done.
a.) Also notice they're a long rectangular shape, it mimics the dash and is fine, by itself.

3. Radio is generally unnatractive, perhaps it's subconscious because I know I can't rip it out when I get ready, guess nothing can be done about that.
b.) The unit is basically square, so in addition to the odd protrusion, it's got little relation to the vents directly above it, unless they're going in descending size from the top to bottom which would make sense...

4. Console gauges. I conceptually hate it, but above and beyond that, I don't see why they're four different pieces, just allows for gaps.
c.) Also, from the pictures, they appear to be trapezoids, could just be the camera, and I hope it is, because that makes no sense.
d.) The difference in size between the head unit and guages is a lot smaller than that of the vents and head unit, so there's no symmetry at all.
4. HVAC controls are way too big, look like they were made for special needs children, they're visually heavy, dominate the entire center stack and overshadow the console gauges.
e.) Plus they've got a billion functions, wasn't around, but I don't think they had that in the sixties. It completely breaks the retro theme, they need to be flat faced knobs, and if they have to serve several purposes add more dial positions and a push function.

5. Hazard switch, it's going to be an import car so I can live with the center location, but... Why isn't it flush? Why is it oriented vertically when everything else is horizantal? Why is it in the middle when everything else is in columns of two, throws visual weight off.

Don't really like the guage pods or driver view either, but others have went into depth on that. I'm sure production fit and finish will clean up some of the above, but even then... :no:

90rocz and Good Ph.D, good posts. :bow:

Case in point.

You see, it's not the fact that you don't like it. It's that you, at the very least, made light of those who do.

You see, it's not the fact that you don't like it. It's that you, at the very least, made light of those who do.
Exactly. It adds a lot more value to the discussion to take the time to input some of the kinds of comments that have some real meat to them, like the detailed lists of ideas offered above. Note, I'm not singling anyone out, since Ph.D also gave an interesting list of real ideas, which is helpful. It does a lot more good to talk about the car, than it does to get personal.

I hope it's ok, Ph.D, that I comment on your ideas. It's great you have put in the thought and effort to make a detailed list... I hope you can realize I'm also within my rights to comment on it (maybe even without being accused of fillibustering ;) ).
That's my main gripe. It's extremely clunky and has no grace or ease of transition what so ever, looks like they stuck a bunch blocks in glob of Play-Doh.
Your opinion. Mine is - I'm frankly, BORED with all the mainstream interiors today - so many of which, have a completely flat-n-flush center stack coming down the middle dash, with nothing memorable or noteworthy in the way of 3D shape. It's almost as if there is some kind of PC rule against having real shapes. Not only is it boring that way... IT'S DANGEROUS. An IP is not static art for you to stare at! It's operational hardware. This includes controls you might want to operate, in traffic, without even looking at them (you know, while driving). That's very difficult to do with a lot of today's dozen-little-flat-buttons IP center stacks. I want my HVAC knobs to stick out. I want them to be big enough to operate when I have gloves on (you didn't think of that - did you?). I want them to be driver-oriented, and if that means they are on an elevated, bulging panel to bring them closer to me (and also the front passenger BTW), while keeping the rest of the IP a safe distance away, GREAT! Form follows function more than some think it does, with interior design, as any human factors engineer will tell you.
1. The dash needs to either be completely flush like in the concept, or it needs to have a defined full length center stack. Not having the vents flush with the dash while the radio and HVAC bulging out like a tumor.
See above. I happen to like having some depth and excitement in my IP.
2. Vents are way too big, and what's worse, they've got huge old school adjustment wheels floating in the middle of nowhere. The wheels should be integrated and the vents should probably get smaller, although the need for the latter could be eliminated if the above were done.
a.) Also notice they're a long rectangular shape, it mimics the dash and is fine, by itself.
I've no issue with the vent sizes. It seems like a trivial matter to me :shrug: ...and BTW, again, try operating a lot of vents you see on other cars, with winter driving gloves on.
3. Radio is generally unnatractive, perhaps it's subconscious because I know I can't rip it out when I get ready, guess nothing can be done about that.
It seems to me we should wait until the production radio can be tried out, before rendering judgement on it. I'll bet there will be far fewer folks wanting to swap it out, once they try it, than happened with the 4gens.
4. Console gauges. I conceptually hate it, but above and beyond that, I don't see why they're four different pieces, just allows for gaps.
Adds to a custom look for the dash, and enables easy integration of aftermarket gauges of the same shape :shrug:
c.) Also, from the pictures, they appear to be trapezoids, could just be the camera, and I hope it is, because that makes no sense.
Why? I think it makes them more like 'bubbles on a plate' instead of being 'matchboxes on a plate'. Looks like an aesthetic plus to me.
d.) The difference in size between the head unit and guages is a lot smaller than that of the vents and head unit, so there's no symmetry at all.
Seems like a nit to me. But oh well. Is it primarily art for your living room, or operational controls for driving the car?
4. HVAC controls are way too big, look like they were made for special needs children, they're visually heavy, dominate the entire center stack and overshadow the console gauges.
I commented above on this. But they SHOULD be a very prominent dash control, since they are one of the most often used.
e.) Plus they've got a billion functions, wasn't around, but I don't think they had that in the sixties. It completely breaks the retro theme, they need to be flat faced knobs, and if they have to serve several purposes add more dial positions and a push function.
I don't feel it 'breaks the retro theme'... because IMO there is none to break. The interior is modern with heritage cues. The embedded buttons in the HVAC are well-planned and intuitive IMO, and again can be operated without looking, and with gloves, totally by position and feel. Just like the F22 which inspired the designers :cool:
5. Hazard switch, it's going to be an import car so I can live with the center location, but... Why isn't it flush? Why is it oriented vertically when everything else is horizantal? Why is it in the middle when everything else is in columns of two, throws visual weight off.
You just blew out a tire while driving. You wrestled the car to the side of a busy, snowy two-lane road, in the dark. Do you want to be fumbling around for the e-light button? I don't. I want that sucker right up front and center, protruding a little even, again so I can hit it with my gloves on.
Don't really like the guage pods or driver view either, but others have went into depth on that. I'm sure production fit and finish will clean up some of the above, but even then... :no:
None of us really has a clue about the 'driver view' of this car, until WE drive it. Judging by the 'driver view' offered by other recent GM designs, such as the splendid C6 with its HUD, I have faith that it will be just fine :)

You see, it's not the fact that you don't like it. It's that you, at the very least, made light of those who do.

I don't think I did anything of the sort.


Your opinion. Mine is - I'm frankly, BORED with all the mainstream interiors today - so many of which, have a completely flat-n-flush center stack coming down the middle dash, with nothing memorable or noteworthy in the way of 3D shape.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that if this were on anything other than a Camaro some of the same people praising it would be ripping it to shreds.

And I think if it hits lots looking much the way it does, real people, who haven't been following this for years will do the same.

Seems like a nit to me. But oh well. Is it primarily art for your living room, or operational controls for driving the car?

The majority of the time spent with the car is driving it, and unless you know something I don't, I drive from inside, that's what I'm looking at 70% of the time.

I do actually, know a tad bit about design and how people react to it. Trivial though it may sound, these are things that the eye picks up on that turn people off, it's what they can't put into words when they say, "It's ugly I just don't like it."

I don't feel it 'breaks the retro theme'... because IMO there is none to break.

What? :eek:

You've said a half dozen times a "retro" car should have a "retro" interior, or whatever retro euphemism we were working under that day.

You just blew out a tire while driving. You wrestled the car to the side of a busy, snowy two-lane road, in the dark. Do you want to be fumbling around for the e-light button? I don't. I want that sucker right up front and center, protruding a little even, again so I can hit it with my gloves on.

You foung an unlighted thimble sized knob on the underside of the steering column in a fourth gen for years, but now you need a billboard? It's lighted and dead center, I see no need to add another wierd bulge.

Additionally, you might want to invest in a pair of these so that you don't lose the benefit of human dexterity every winter. :p

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/beltoutlet/GM78TC.jpg

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that if this were on anything other than a Camaro some of the same people praising it would be ripping it to shreds. ...And I think if it hits lots looking much the way it does, real people, who haven't been following this for years will do the same.
I guess we'll find out when it's released. Not before...
The majority of the time spent with the car is driving it, and unless you know something I don't, I drive from inside, that's what I'm looking at 70% of the time.
Wow :eek: I realize everyone has a different driving style. But you know what? I hardly EVER look at my interior (except HUD ;) ) when driving. My eyes are on the road and other cars, about 85-95% of the time. I am a defensive driver and it takes a lot of concentration to stay safe. I devote most of my attention and consciousness to driving, even when stuck in bumper-bumper crawling traffic since that's where a lot of fender benders happen. For me, that makes it important for an interior to have the right dynamic and ergonomic aspects. Good controls placement... visibility outside... HUD... steering wheel stereo controls... buttons and knobs with unique, graspable shapes within easy reach. THOSE are what matter to me when I'm in the car. Aesthetics matter too... but if a car cannot deliver dynamically - it doesn't matter how 'nice' it looks. NONE of us will know the dynamics until we can test drive the new Camaro... but I believe it will follow the C6 since it appears to be under development by pretty much the same crew.
I do actually, know a tad bit about design and how people react to it. Trivial though it may sound, these are things that the eye picks up on that turn people off, it's what they can't put into words when they say, "It's ugly I just don't like it."
It's clear you do have a good background for these kinds of inputs, and that does help. I agree that aesthetics is subtle. I guess I'm more practical, as an engineer, I tend to view things from a functional perspective first and foremost.
You've said a half dozen times a "retro" car should have a "retro" interior, or whatever retro euphemism we were working under that day.

That's not what I have been saying. I don't believe this is a retro design. The Ford GT was retro. Harley Davidsons are retro. But the new Camaro is not. It's not a car anyone on this planet is going to confuse with something from 1969.
You found an unlighted thimble sized knob on the underside of the steering column in a fourth gen for years, but now you need a billboard? It's lighted and dead center, I see no need to add another weird bulge.
Yes, I want it. I also want AFM, an A6 tranny, remote start, and integrated XM (hopefully HUD will be there too, as rumored). Why shouldn't I have these things?
Additionally, you might want to invest in a pair of these so that you don't lose the benefit of human dexterity every winter.
That picture's cute :D But most people don't or won't wear gloves like that while driving. People often have lighter gloves for commuting, maybe like this:

http://leatherglovesonline.com/pages2/springglovea1.jpg

That's not what I have been saying. I don't believe this is a retro design. The Ford GT was retro. Harley Davidsons are retro. But the new Camaro is not. It's not a car anyone on this planet is going to confuse with something from 1969.

So WHY then, would a thoroughly modern interior not "fit" with Camaro's exterior design, as you have stated? I think that was his point.

Seriously, are we still debating the interior? You either like it or you don't, buy it or you won't. All the opinions in the world, pro or con will have no effect on the Camaro anymore.
There is no debate GM has already decided on what they are going to do and that's that. I would think since none of us have sat in the car and driven it that the smart thing to do would wait until we can. Then if the car is worth your hard earned money then buy it and if not then don't, it’s that simple. Does anyone see the senselessness in debating spy pics when nothing can or will be changed?

I guess I'm more practical, as an engineer, I tend to view things from a functional perspective first and foremost.
I wonder then, how you can be so enamored with an interior containing gauges (the console mounted ones as well as the 20 mph increment speedo) that by your own admission need another outlet (DIC and / or HUD) to be read easily when driving? Wouldn't the need for redundant readouts be the very definition of not-too-flipping-functional?


I am asking in a nonconfrontational tone of course. :)



Seriously, are we still debating the interior? ....... Does anyone see the senselessness in debating spy pics when nothing can or will be changed?
Nope. This is a discussion board. What else should we be doing here?

The people that like the interior now, would also like it if they completely changed it.
Then so would everyone else.
I'm going to buy a set of those brass balls to hang from the mirror in mine. That way my bow tie buddys will have something to hug when we cruise.

Seriously, are we still debating the interior? You either like it or you don't, buy it or you won't. All the opinions in the world, pro or con will have no effect on the Camaro anymore.
There is no debate GM has already decided on what they are going to do and that's that. I would think since none of us have sat in the car and driven it that the smart thing to do would wait until we can. Then if the car is worth your hard earned money then buy it and if not then don't, it’s that simple. Does anyone see the senselessness in debating spy pics when nothing can or will be changed?


Nope. This is a discussion board. What else should we be doing here?


I'm with Chewy on this one. Why cannot people discuss what they do or do not like about the car? :confused: There might be another 20 guys come on here and say the same thing as someone else. So what? I want to hear everyone's opinion, good and bad.

Sometimes I wonder if some people really understand what the term free speech means. If you value free speech then you must be able to tolerate an opinion that may contradict your own.

I'm with Chewy on this one. Why cannot people discuss what they do or do not like about the car? :confused: There might be another 20 guys come on here and say the same thing as someone else. So what? I want to hear everyone's opinion, good and bad.

Sometimes I wonder if some people really understand what the term free speech means. If you value free speech then you must be able to tolerate an opinion that may contradict your own.

I'm not saying you can't. But most people don't waste their time for nothing. The car is what it is and no posting pro or con will change it. Who's to say what my opinion is, it could be very much in line with yours. Maybe it's not. Does that really matter?
Has anyone here sat in the production car and driven it... Do we really know what the interior is like first hand?
Will a debate over spy pics really have any effect on if anyone actually buys the car?

So WHY then, would a thoroughly modern interior not "fit" with Camaro's exterior design, as you have stated? I think that was his point.
Simple. This not a 'thoroughly modern' design. It definitely has heritage cues throughout. But it's not a 1969 Camaro lookalike, as the Harleys are just about identical to Harleys of the 1970's. Like the exterior, the interior has a good mix of new-ish stuff (eg, the DIC already seen) and old-ish stuff. Harmony - a simple concept - and nicely achieved between the new Camaro interior and exterior.
I'm with Chewy on this one. Why cannot people discuss what they do or do not like about the car? There might be another 20 guys come on here and say the same thing as someone else. So what? I want to hear everyone's opinion, good and bad.

Sometimes I wonder if some people really understand what the term free speech means. If you value free speech then you must be able to tolerate an opinion that may contradict your own.
This definitely makes some sense... it is great we have free speech here.
Seriously, are we still debating the interior? You either like it or you don't, buy it or you won't. All the opinions in the world, pro or con will have no effect on the Camaro anymore.
There is no debate GM has already decided on what they are going to do and that's that. I would think since none of us have sat in the car and driven it that the smart thing to do would wait until we can. Then if the car is worth your hard earned money then buy it and if not then don't, it’s that simple. Does anyone see the senselessness in debating spy pics when nothing can or will be changed?
...
I'm not saying you can't. But most people don't waste their time for nothing. The car is what it is and no posting pro or con will change it. Who's to say what my opinion is, it could be very much in line with yours. Maybe it's not. Does that really matter?
Has anyone here sat in the production car and driven it... Do we really know what the interior is like first hand?
Will a debate over spy pics really have any effect on if anyone actually buys the car?

I agree with this a little more though. It's fine to have free speech and all... but it is a little absurd at this point in the design/release cycle for this car, ESPECIALLY without the ability for us all to actually TRY out the interior.
I wonder then, how you can be so enamored with an interior containing gauges (the console mounted ones as well as the 20 mph increment speedo) that by your own admission need another outlet (DIC and / or HUD) to be read easily when driving? Wouldn't the need for redundant readouts be the very definition of not-too-flipping-functional?
Easy. As an engineer, I've already done a thought experiment, as to which gauges I use most often :D

...and all the important gauges are up top in the speedo/tach cluster :)

If the widely rumored HUD appears, well on my GP GXP it helps me more with speed and stereo settings (like showing me the text name of the XM channel I'm thumbing to). That's part function, part safety, and part fun :cool:

Wow :eek: I realize everyone have a different driving style. But you know what? I hardly EVER look at my interior (except HUD ;) ) when driving. My eyes are on the road and other cars, about 85-95% of the time.

I thought it was fairly obvious I meant the interior is within my field of view most of the time, the exterior is not. I'm not playing with buttons while I'm driving... not that I would be alone if I did...

That picture's cute :D But most people don't or won't wear gloves like that while driving. People often have lighter gloves for commuting, maybe like this:

I've yet to meet a person who actually wears driving gloves, I'd assume that's about as common as people in roadsters who wear goggles.

But I'll take your word for it. :p

Originally Posted by Chewbacca:
Wouldn't the need for redundant readouts be the very definition of not-too-flipping-functional?While I somewhat agree, I'd love to have a redundant, well executed HUD; multicolored and simultaneously displaying all mission critical information in analog form.
(Not asking for much....;) )

Originally Posted by Good Ph.D:
they've got huge old school adjustment wheels floating in the middle of nowhere.I forgot that one...was gonna mention it tho, it was late, but I agree 110%, should've been integrated, would've looked much "cleaner".
As I agree with most of the rest of your points as well.

The last time I saw a guy wearing Nomex gloves, was in a Porsche, that I embarassed in a street race on our main cruising street. :D
Man, I miss my '67 Firebird.:cool:

Originally Posted by 3rdGenNut:
The people that like the interior now, would also like it if they completely changed it.
Then so would everyone else.Very True!:thumb:

Originally Posted by 3rdGenNut:
I'm going to buy a set of those brass balls to hang from the mirror in mine. That way my bow tie buddys will have something to hug when we cruise. :lol: I know you should'nt've, but it was d@mn funny!..:lol:

I bet even scott would laugh at that.
Just having a little fun.

I'm not saying you can't. But most people don't waste their time for nothing. The car is what it is and no posting pro or con will change it. Who's to say what my opinion is, it could be very much in line with yours. Maybe it's not. Does that really matter?

In the grand scheme of things, our opinion on the car does not matter but what is a discussion forum for then? Setting up this 2010 Camaro Forum is so that we can all discuss opinion is it not?


Has anyone here sat in the production car and driven it... Do we really know what the interior is like first hand?
Will a debate over spy pics really have any effect on if anyone actually buys the car?

I have not 'driven' Pamela Anderson and I do not know what she looks like first hand but I have seen pictures of her and I have seen enough of her to have a good idea what it would be like to umm.....drive her.

I can't count the times I've dreamed of taking her threw the corkscrew at Laguna.
The Camaro I mean....

I have not 'driven' Pamela Anderson and I do not know what she looks like first hand but I have seen pictures of her and I have seen enough of her to have a good idea what it would be like to umm.....drive her.
There is some parallel there. But I think a much better example is a 9mm handgun. It's "nice" if the gun looks good. But how does it feel when you are using it? Do all the controls feel quickly at your grasp? Is it precise and accurate? Jam-free? Easy to load and clean? All are functional issues, and all are more important than "looks".

I've yet to meet a person who actually wears driving gloves, I'd assume that's about as common as people in roadsters who wear goggles.
Just an example of lightweight gloves... *Substitute Here* any number of other common lightweight gloves people wear to work in their winter commute :p

All are functional issues, and all are more important than "looks".

Even if I don't like how something "looks", I don't have to buy it.

Isn't this exactly what we do with the exteriors of cars? Yeah, the drag coefficient could be ridiculously low. It could have a body designed to do 200 mph. It could include LED headlights and all that and be designed to perform its functional job flawlessly. If we don't like how the car looks, none of us would buy it anyway, no?

Even if I don't like how something "looks", I don't have to buy it.

Isn't this exactly what we do with the exteriors of cars? Yeah, the drag coefficient could be ridiculously low. It could have a body designed to do 200 mph. It could include LED headlights and all that and be designed to perform its functional job flawlessly. If we don't like how the car looks, none of us would buy it anyway, no?
I'd venture a guess, exterior styling is more important to sporty car buyers than interior styling. I have nothing to back that up, just my impression that's all. It is expected as a given for today's cars, that their exterior will be functional (aerodynamic and so on). On the interior, I believe form follows function, that is, how an interior WORKS is far more important than 'looking nice'. Are dead pedals 'attractive'? No. But they are sure important to some. The 'looking nice' part is subjective and there are bound to be some folks who dislike the looks of something. But judging from the feedback on this and other sites, from perusal of half-done, half-baked new Camaro interiors, it seems to me that the new Camaro interior is pretty popular overall :shrug:

In the grand scheme of things, our opinion on the car does not matter but what is a discussion forum for then? Setting up this 2010 Camaro Forum is so that we can all discuss opinion is it not?.
Well ya know we could set up a forum about lowering gas prices to $1 per gallon or why the IRS taxes so much but do you think it will have any effect? As futile as that is we are sitting here debating something out of our control. At least waiting until the car is in front of us we can take it or leave it. All we are doing here is getting on each others nerves and for what?
I've worked at GM and in the design studios and I know what those meetings are like when a small group makes big decisions for hundreads of thousands of potential buyers. I've seen it work and I've seen it fail but the debate there means something and here it doesn't. Point being it's not worth a debate now because none of us really know what we are getting.

I have not 'driven' Pamela Anderson and I do not know what she looks like first hand but I have seen pictures of her and I have seen enough of her to have a good idea what it would be like to umm.....drive her.

Well may I remind you that Ms. Anderson has hepatitis C so I hope that doesn't spoil your test ride too much.
And I'm thinking if you ask Tommy Lee, Kid Rock and Rick Salomon you may get three very different opinions of how it would be to umm... drive her.

Well ya know we could set up a forum about lowering gas prices to $1 per gallon or why the IRS taxes so much but do you think it will have any effect? As futile as that is we are sitting here debating something out of our control. At least waiting until the car is in front of us we can take it or leave it. All we are doing here is getting on each others nerves and for what?
I've worked at GM and in the design studios and I know what those meetings are like when a small group makes big decisions for hundreads of thousands of potential buyers. I've seen it work and I've seen it fail but the debate there means something and here it doesn't. Point being it's not worth a debate now because none of us really know what we are getting.


So I guess you don't believe in debating anything then? Whether it be taxes, gas prices, politics, etc - if someones' point of view on something cannot change anything then they should just shut up?

With respect to your point on getting on each others nerves, the only one's which I have a problem with are the one's who seem to be on a mission to kill the car before it gets out of the gate. As for the rest, it's all about tolerance. You mentioned that you worked in a GM design studio so I can see where you are coming from.

Maybe because you provoke them continuously? :think:

Talk about an understatement....:D

So I guess you don't believe in debating anything then? Whether it be taxes, gas prices, politics, etc - if someones' point of view on something cannot change anything then they should just shut up?

With respect to your point on getting on each others nerves, the only one's which I have a problem with are the one's who seem to be on a mission to kill the car before it gets out of the gate. As for the rest, it's all about tolerance. You mentioned that you worked in a GM design studio so I can see where you are coming from.

I just see this debate as a bit premature. I'm all for a strong debate when the car is on sale and we know what it looks like and what we've got to work with inside and out. There is just too much unknown here and so the debate borders on just wasting time. I would think we agree that the Camaro team didn't leave a seat open for camaroz28.com at their meetings and so regardless of what is said here it will have no effect on the Camaro production car.

I remember seeing early spy pics of the current Chrysler 300C and thinking yikes what a mess. I believe those pics were on this site back then and there was a debate similar to this. If you remember back the LX cars style was very different than the previous LH and the long wheelbase boxy look of the 300C had very odd proportions than its predecessor. Well it turned out the poor quality pics didn't do the car justice. Now the car is a big sales success and I would think many people like the looks of it.

More recently the spy pics leaked of the C6 Vette and its fixed headlights certainly had people in an uproar. There was some bitter debate that GM had destroyed the Corvette. I remember some interior pics too and people were complaining that the C6 interior was too much like the C5 and the door handles looked silly.. etc. Well after the car was introduced many people changed their tunes and the C6 is one of the best looking Corvettes ever. IMO.

Obviously the Camaro is more dear to many of us here than the 300C or C6 and thus the debate gets very heated because I think we all do want what’s best for the car and anything that doesn’t look like what we expect or want, the debate rages. But looking back at history I think it’s safe to say waiting for the production car is probably the best course of action and we may realize those spy pics didn’t do this car justice either.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree 99SilverSS. To me, it's like talking about who will win the Superbowl before the game is played. My opinion before the game had no bearing on the outcome yet still loved to talk about it with the guys. I guess now that the Superbowl has finally been played, only now can you start to talk about it. ;)

There is just too much unknown here and so the debate borders on just wasting time.
You mean like debating whether or not there should be debating and discussion occurring on a discussion board? ;)

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree 99SilverSS. To me, it's like talking about who will win the Superbowl before the game is played. My opinion before the game had no bearing on the outcome yet still loved to talk about it with the guys. I guess now that the Superbowl has finally been played, only now can you start to talk about it. ;)

Agreed and that's another part of internet debate, nobody really changes anyone’s mind but we still love to fill up pages of posts.

I think your analogy is a little skewed comparing a car to sports. We don’t know what the Camaro interior really looks like, how much it will weigh, cost or what engine options will be available, Z/28-SS-RS??? I think we knew quite a bit about the Super Bowl, who was playing and how they play even the upset was predicted by quite a few people. I suppose a movie would be better analogy say like Cloverfield and the debate as to what the monster looked like but nobody really knew until it was released. Previews just had it's sound and all the actors we’re under strict copyright rules not to talk about it until the release date. I suppose you could say we still really don’t know clearly and my stomach is still turning. I remember ESPN radio out here had one of the actors from the movie on the show and someone called in complaining that the monster sounds like Godzilla and they probably would not go see it because of that.
We have seen some people on this site denounce the Camaro because of the spy pics and won’t buy the car. At least some have eluded to that. They don't like something from the pics and have made up their mind. Just seems a bit close minded and premature. To each their own I guess.

You mean like debating whether or not there should be debating and discussion occurring on a discussion board? ;)

Eureka I think you've got it... :eek: carry on.