I've been thinking about writing this post for a week now, since we were all discussing the faults of Pontiac in another thread. Some people think everything is fine, while others on here yearn for so much more. If anyone at GM is reading this, this is one GM enthusiast's idea to actually make Pontiac a real, you know, BRAND...if that's what anyone at GM actually would like to do. I may not know much about the ins and outs of brand engineering (bad), decidcated new platforms (good) or marketing (which, common sense dictates Pontiac doesn't even HAVE), but here's my ideas FWIW...

Compact: The G5 should be a 2 and 4 door vehicle, and with the upcoming changes to the Cobalt, SOME money should be given to make it look like more than a poorly badge-engineered Cobalt. Further, a GXP model should be offered in 2 and 4 door trim, to mimic the Cobalt SS. Offering a 4 door would further differentiate it from the Chevy. Think about how many Sunbirds and Sunfires were sold years ago. Sure, the market is smaller than before maybe, with everyone moving to crossovers...but Mazda certainly doesn't seem to have any issue moving Mazda 3's. I've never understood why it is Chevy can have an s/c SS (or upcoming turbo) while Pontiac, the "sporty" division has nothing like it.

Solstice: Leave as is...upgrade the interior a little. Saturn's dash blows away the Pontiac.

G6: Why was the GXP or Street Edition even conceived? The GXP moniker was beginning to be a little hallowed in Pontiac circles, signifying real, significant, worthy changes to models like the GP, Bonneville and Solstice. Now, its being whored out as bad as "SS." The G6 GXP has what, exactly, in advantage over the old GTP? 16 more HP? Ugly street edition trim that is more blatantly painful to look at than any SSEi Bonneville? WTF??

Would the real GXP please stand up?? How about a DI 3.6? Bring back the M6 and put it behind a real engine. Bilstein struts. Cross drilled, bigger brakes. Maybe some carbon dash trim. Make it WORTHY. Dare we talk about a tweaked 2.8 Saab engine, or the AWD the car should've had available all along that GM axed? When is this car being replaced? Its already inferior to the Aura and the Malibu, so why even have it? Or, is that the point? (Conspiracy theory, or reality??)

G8: Fine as is...seriously. It doesn't even need a GXP model until an MCE, to keep the blood pumping. Great car.

Torrent: Why does it exist? I made the argument for it when it came out, saying Pontiac should have a crossover. By why is it so bad? Nothing's been changed since '06, save for a new engine and further whoring out of the GXP name. Think Nissan Murano...Mazda CX-7. Not tarted up Equinox!

Vibe: Whatever....it doesn't help, doesn't hurt, I haven't seen the new one in person so its hard to say...

Firebird/GTO/insert sports car here: This has been debated to death on here, but an "aspirational brand" like Pontiac is SUPPOSED to be (but woefully is NOT) should have its own Corvette...350Z...RX-8...hell, even something as exciting as an Eclipse. We don't have it...why not? The Solstice is a great car, but it is not what I'd say an aspirational model. Most models built are middling 177hp models. Great car, but not a halo car the way its trying to be...

Picture Pontiac with a real sport compact, a real performance G6, a Murano-like Torrent, and a muscle/sports 2+2. That's Pontiac...not what we have.

Besides the G8, what can be bought at Pontiac that is not better than a competing model at another GM division? The Cobalt is the same or better than a G5, the G6 is pathetice next to the Aura or Malibu, the Solstice lacks the sweet interior of the Sky, the Torrent has no reason bo buy it really over an Equinox...so that leaves one RWD sedan.

Am I the only one who sees the problem here? Or is it merely the writing on the wall? Would a brand like this not help win back some marketshare?

 

To rip off the new marketing campaign, Pontiac is not "CAR." Pontiac is "MEMORIES," of when it was a mainstream, exciting brand. Pontiac is "INSUFFICIENT," when compared to brands like Saturn. I won't continue, because I could sit here all day. And if it seems like I'm whining, its because I am. I bleed Pontiac, and it isn't like anyone on here can complain I'm a troll. Like I said in another post...10 Pontiacs driven by me, my fiancee or in my immediate family in 15 years...3 Grand Ams, 5 Grand Prixs, 2 Firebirds. I dare say I've been an ardent fan and supporter for years, including selling them from '00 through '06. I hate where this division has gone...because it really is about gone.

 

I agree that the G5 needs to be updated to better differentiate it from Cobalt. I agree that a GXP with the turbo should be offered for the "Performance" division. I disagree about the 4 door. It wouldn't differentiate any further - there is a Cobalt SS Turbo 4 door on the way already. I think G5 should be coupe only and high line (GT with 2.4 and GXP with turbo) trim only as an entry level "performance" car should be. You've got the Vibe to cover the 4 door market. Unfortunately, since the Cobalt isn't getting any body updates in the near future, neither will G5. My hope is that G5 will eventually be replaced with a small RWD car.

Agreed.

Agree 100%. They were making GXP stand for something, so having it as an appearance package here misses the target. G6 is still a long way from replacement. Too long. I believe that next generation Aura and Buick LaCrosse (or, preferably, REGAL) will be out on Epsilon II before the G6 update.

GXP will be much sooner than MCE, but yes, this car and Solstice are the biggest steps in the right direction for Pontiac.

It won't exist soon. 2008 is the last model year. I actually think that the Torrent GXP is more deserving of the name than the G6, but agree that a performance SUV isn't Pontiac. Pontiac needs no SUVs or crossovers. Leave that to the GMCs in the same showroom.

I actually like the Vibe as an entry model for Pontiac. It can attract some import intenders and offers a bargain 4 door in the lineup to get buyers into the showroom. with the GT back there's at least a performance model again. Not every 60s Pontiac was a Firebreather - you had your normal old Tempests, too.

Sadly, I don't think we'll see anything along these lines anytime soon with the next generation GTO pronounced dead. G8 GXP will likely be the performance flagship for now.

Nothing. Hopefully that will change. Personally I'd like to see:

Performance Flagship (probably not coming)
G8
RWD Alpha sedan/coupe/'vert with BMW 3 series type dynamics
Solstice convertible and coupe
Vibe (entry level)

Leave the big FWD sedans to Buick and the trucks to GMC.

I think everyone sees it. It's the money and product to fix it that's the problem!

 

Good post Jason, like you I'm a Pontiac die-hard. While I've owned a number of Camaros, given a choice I will always go with a Firebird over its Chevy counterpart. Pontiac NEEDS a Firebird or GTO (I would prefer a Firebird). I know there are members here that will say "Firebird ate up more resources having multiple hoods, bumpers, etc."
That was the past, there is no reason it has to apply to a 5th gen Firebird is there?

I like the new Camaro, but I'm going to have to be really impressed after driving one if I am to trade my 02 WS6 TA for one.

 

Some good points here. I really don't think anyone is saying is perfectly fine. What they (we) are saying is that its not dead, dying, in danger of shutting its doors, etc. There is a middle ground.
Pontiac is obviously a brand in transition as are many other brands. Some of their recent moves indicate to me that they are getting it.

I think its foolish for any of us to think that the people who's jobs, mortgages, children's college funds, etc. are dependent on Pontiac's success are not working day and night to focus and improve the brand.

However, like most things in life that takes two things---time and money.
Jason you seem to be enamored with what has been done with Saturn. Well for those who think Pontiac has been left for dead, take a look at the 2004 Saturn lineup-
-Ion
-L300
-Vue

GM was obviosly in triage mode after losing 12 billion dollars the following year and treated the sickest patient first. They were in the most desperate need of help and got it. Over the course of 2 years they revamped their whole lineup. It may be Pontiac's turn now.

I don't think your dream lineup is far from what they are trying to do within the confines of business realites. We're talking product cycle times

I love the Pontiac is CAR campaign because that is exactly where Pontiac needs to be. An exciting CAR company. The Torrent (with much better styling than the equinox imo) is going away as a Pontiac. With the Solstice and G8 They're halfway there. In my opinion a sportier G6 replacement and a performance coupe would put them in their sweet spot in the 3 brand channel they currently exist in, P-B-G.

A few quick observations-

-The G6 sells well and was the second main brand epsilon car, It was much better looking in and out than the 2004 Malibu that preceeded it. Both cars were too far along in the development process to be "Lutz-ized" The Aura, which debuted a year and a half later was naturally a better car then either of the other two. I suspect the next G6 will be better than the current Malibu and will debut between the Malibu and the new Aura, just as before. That would mean its next up to bat.

-Pontiac wanted to place the LS4 in the G6 GXP but it could not be packaged. Maybe Delorean could have got 'er done.

-Is there really anyone here who doesn't think the loss of the F-body had a much more profound effect on Pontiac than it did on Chevy? Really?

 

I dunno- haven't driven a Pontiac in quite a while BECAUSE THEIR VERSION OF HI-PERF is FRONT WHEEL DRIVE? 300 hp through the front wheels- I don't think so- may be okay for a stop light to stop light race, but not what I want to drive waround with every day, and play with-

They have always had nice touches, upscale from Chevrolet- nicer seats, the red gauges like a BMW, nice details- They USED to make wonderful engines, Super Duty anyone? 389? How can you have a division who's theme is performance and driving excitement and no V-8, RWD coupes or convertibles? Yeah, the new 2 seater is cute, sort of a grown-up Miata, but what if I want a back seat? They missed the boat a decade ago when you could buy the LT1 powered Roadmaster or Impala, but no Poncho - How many BMW, Mercedes or Porsches are FWD? Ferraris? Yeah, the supercharged V-6 is a heck of a motor, put it in a chassis that deserves it (ever tried to drift a turn in a FWD car?)

Enough rant, I realize that I am an old fossil and that many of todays drivers learned on FWD Hondas and VW's and so on- still something wrong about doing a burnout with the front tires, though, IMO. This is an F-body site, right? Why aren't they building one for the last 6 years? A lot of passion and faithful here, comeon GM help us out with affordable performance in a cost-effective, robust package, not some high-tech gizmo that will be going for more than 30 grand- I want effortless torque, H.D. axles, brakes, cooling, and acceleration that is eye-opening. Would prefer not to have highly stressed turbos, the complexity of DOHC's, or buzzy 8000 RPM redlines- I want a rumble that shakes the ground and the ability to paint 2 black strips every time my right foot decides to get heavy, and have pretty much given up on ever seeing that again in a real sedan at a price I would put into a transportation device- Looking wistfully at crew-cab pickup trucks, but they are not sporty no matter how many spoilers or paint stripes you put on them-

 

Good analysis. I'm not convinced that Pontiac is "dead" to GM at all though. I think if this were the case, GM wouldn't have tried out the Monaro as the GTO, wouldn't have driven Kappa through to production for Solstice (which Sky piggy-backed off of) and wouldn't be trying again with the G8.

I think what you have is only so much development money to go around, and it doesn't seem to make sense to funnel an unusually high amount through a division like Pontiac which, let's be honest, will never be a major-volume seller again.

Chevrolet - Major volume seller
Saturn - Great customer service/dealer reputation

Where does that leave Pontiac? As a bit of a "niche" brand.

They are even setting it up to be this way, with cars like Solstice and importing a RWD sedan instead of building it right away at Oshawa. Throw in the fact that you're combining Pontiac/Buick/GMC franchises under one roof.....

EDIT: Hoodshaker had some excellent points.

 

Really? Interesting, I hadn't heard that.

But even with the current 3.6, the GXP had so much lost potential. Who ever signed off on the current package, really needs to be fired. I'm serious. To me it shows that that person(s) doesn't have clue number one on creating such a package.

It's not like they needed to reinvent the wheel or something. The Epsilon parts bin is rich with all sorts of things that could have made the G6 GXP a gem - for little or no cost. Who ever called the shots on that one, blew it, simply because they were totally oblivious.

 

The pink elephant in the room is that when you get right down to it, except for one or two exceptions here and there, there isn’t a dimes worth of difference between Chevrolet, Pontiac, or Buick. Cadillac is a bit different but even then it’s more window dressing that significant differences.

There was a time, probably before most of you here were born, when each division was truly its own company and competed against each other as much as they competed against Ford, Chrysler, or Rambler/AMC, etc.

Most business people will tell you that GM simply doesn’t need all these divisions or all the dealerships needed to support them – what they really need is to put out models that compete in viable market segments. The pretense that a Buick is a better car than an Pontiac or a Chevrolet because of the nameplate is just that, a pretense.

I say that coming from a family that only bought Pontiacs as far back as 1955; the first three cars I ever owned were Pontiacs…I loved what Pontiac was but that was then, now it’s just a Chevy with another nameplate on the back bumper.

Were Pontiac to cease to exist tomorrow I’d be sad but not nearly as sad as I already am when I remember what they once were.

Just my $0.02

 

IMHO, Aside from a halo product, that is the single most important gap in Pontiac's product line that is key to the brand's long term health and survival.

 

Pontiac about gone?

I wouldn't go that far.

Last year, Pontiac (GM's 2nd largest division) sold 358,022 vehicles. Although that's a 12.7% decrease over 2007. But that's far from gone, I'd say.

* Mazda sold 296,110 vehicles last year.
* Mercury sold 168,422
* The G6 handily outsold any car Chrysler made last year. That includes either the 300 or the Charger.
* The G6 also outsells any car Ford makes outside of the Focus.
* Pontiac sold 28,000 G5 coupes last year. That's within 5,000 cars of Ford's Taurus. Pontiac sells more G5s than Lincoln sells Town Cars.
* Grand Prix sold over 87K cars, despite being discontinued by mid year.
* Despite lower sales numbers, Solstice still outsells the Miata by over 10%

Most of Pontiac's troubles have resulted when the platforms they were heavily counting on have been shelved or development prolonged as well as models cut without any replacements.

When GM gutted North America's Zeta program a few years ago, the Grand Prix and N/A GTO were left in limbo, and Pontiac had to procure the Zeta sedans from Holden. The GTO/Monaro that was flying in under the radar by hiding with Holden's Camaro development has also been shelved.

The G6 is actually now as successful as the Grand Prix was. However, unlike before, Pontiac doesn't have the mad-sales numbers of the Grand Am to count in with the mix. Bonneville wasn't selling in large numbers, but it's sales numbers have never been replaced. GTO sold on par with V8 Firebirds, but now that GTO's gone, there's nothing in it's place to add to the sales numbers.

 

Not to mention the G6 outsold the Chevrolet Malibu last year as well, and it wasn't the first time it was done in recent memory.

 

Strongly disagree with that. Cadillac doesn't share Sigma with anything else, for starters -- which is the basis for CTS, STS and SRX, the core of their business. It's like saying an Infinity is just a window-dressed Nissan.

 

I also have my own idea of what Pontiac should be that I have probably posted several times when this topic rolls around...

So Pontiac is supposed to be the excitement division. That means they should probably have some exciting products. They need to be sporty. The essentially need to be the cars that Mazda pushes. These cars will be a mix of FWD and RWD, with perhaps an occasional AWD car. You can't get away with an all RWD Pontiac modeled after BMW because I don't believe the economics would pan out unless you had maybe 2 or 3 models of Pontiacs.

Compact: You don't need the G5 and the Vibe. I would probably go with a hatch that is similar to such cars as the Golf (er, Rabbit) and the Civic hatch. Or maybe 3 and 5 door configs. At any rate you do not need a coupe or small sedan here because you can buy those at the Chevy dealer. You can also push the practicality and the improved weight distribution of the hatch.

Roadster: Solstice. Don't see any reason to drop this one. It should be slightly more focused on performance than the Sky.

Mid size: G6 (the next generation). I see G6s all over the place, principally the sedans. So perhaps they could leave the formula alone? You can already get similar cars at Saturn and Chevy so this could move to an Alpha like small RWD architecture. Base cars to be powered by some sort of I4. GTs to come with a turbo I4 standard and a DI V6 as an option. GXP to have the V6 with FI and drastically improved suspension.

Full size: G8. Similar to current car. Base DI V6. GT V8. GXP needs to be fairly limited and include a high output version of the motor in the GT with or without FI. Need to figure out how to get a manual option on the higher trims. Also need to make sure that the car can handle. No 2 door variant. Don't think the large coupe is really needed at Pontiac, and as such nothing like the Monaro/GTO per se.

Halo car: Of course I always include this one in the lineup. This should be the car for Pontiac. Think of the M3, GTR, or the RX-7 (not really the RX-8). Based on the mid sized RWD platform but with only 2 doors, an NA V8, and visually distinct styling. Since it is so different from the G6 it warrants it's own name... and it isn't GTO.

 

Firechicken?