Am I the Only One..?

..That still thinks it is absolutely absurd that it is taking almost 4 years for GM to bring this car to production? I mean it took the Viper 18 months to hit the showroom - a car without a shared platform. When I heard back in 2006 that I would have to wait 4 years until this thing hit the road, I was beyond disgusted. I think its a miracle that I've been able to hold interest up to this point... Granted, it is exciting with the pictures and info that has been coming out about the car as of late, but there are still many unannounced details (engines, pricing, basic dimensions) that could doom the car months before it hits showrooms, and I think we are all giving GM a bit too much credit at this point. As a long time f-body owner I am as excited as the next enthusiast about the potential of the car, and as of now I fully intend to pick one up immediately if the optimistic rumors prove to be true, but I think GM's strategy of bringing the car to market is yet another embarrassment for the company. I just hope that they can make up for it and back up the hype.

As far as the pre-production pictures, the car appears considerably narrower/taller than the concept, and more "boulbus" overall with softer edges. But like most everyone else, I will hold judgment until I see it in person (or at least considerably more pictures from different angles). I guess it is still a huge success in comparison to other concept to production transitions. I just hope I can keep what little faith I have left until next Feb, because if they miss the target on this one I know I won't be buying another GM product again.

..That still thinks it is absolutely absurd that it is taking almost 4 years for GM to bring this car to production? I mean it took the Viper 18 months to hit the showroom - a car without a shared platform. When I heard back in 2006 that I would have to wait 4 years until this thing hit the road, I was beyond disgusted. I think its a miracle that I've been able to hold interest up to this point... Granted, it is exciting with the pictures and info that has been coming out about the car as of late, but there are still many unannounced details (engines, pricing, basic dimensions) that could doom the car months before it hits showrooms, and I think we are all giving GM a bit too much credit at this point. As a long time f-body owner I am as excited as the next enthusiast about the potential of the car, and as of now I fully intend to pick one up immediately if the optimistic rumors prove to be true, but I think GM's strategy of bringing the car to market is yet another embarrassment for the company. I just hope that they can make up for it and back up the hype.

As far as the pre-production pictures, the car appears considerably narrower/taller than the concept, and more "boulbus" overall with softer edges. But like most everyone else, I will hold judgment until I see it in person (or at least considerably more pictures from different angles). I guess it is still a huge success in comparison to other concept to production transitions. I just hope I can keep what little faith I have left until next Feb, because if they miss the target on this one I know I won't be buying another GM product again.

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure why you're saying 4 years......

Jan 9 2006 -- concept was shown -- and when it was unveiled, Rick Wagoner said very specifically that we had no plans at that time to build the car.....

Mid August 2006-- we announced that the Camaro had just rec'd a green light.......

Sept 2006 -- Engineering team members transferred to Melbourne, Australia to start work in earnest.


4th quarter of 2008 -- Camaro goes into production at Oshawa.....

1st quarter of 2009 -- Camaro hits dealerships.

Even from the day the car was unveiled -- you're talking 3 years -- not 4 -- and in reality -- it will be a 25-26 month car -- less than the 1967 model......

Whole new architecture..............unlike Challenger.

Yes...yes you are.:tired:

I'm not sure why you're saying 4 years......

Jan 9 2006 -- concept was shown -- and when it was unveiled, Rick Wagoner said very specifically that we had no plans at that time to build the car.....

Mid August 2006-- we announced that the Camaro had just rec'd a green light.......

Sept 2006 -- Engineering team members transferred to Melbourne, Australia to start work in earnest.


4th quarter of 2008 -- Camaro goes into production at Oshawa.....

1st quarter of 2009 -- Camaro hits dealerships.

Even from the day the car was unveiled -- you're talking 3 years -- not 4 -- and in reality -- it will be a 25-26 month car -- less than the 1967 model......

Whole new architecture..............unlike Challenger.

I guess I was also considering the fact that the top model is projected to come out a year after the base.

Uhm, Jan 2006 to 1st quarter 2009 is still three years in NC...........it is a leap year this year, maybe there's gonna be some sort of spatial time displacement event that I missed reading about.

Anyway, personally, this time frame works to my advantage. I couldn't possibly think about getting another new car before next year. And I want to be able to get into one the first year they are available. Your comparison to the Viper is a bit skewed since we are not talking about the same numbers of production and the fact that an entire plant has to be refitted for this car. I highly recommend that anyone who thinks that building 100,000 cars a year from scratch check out one of the episodes of 'Ultimate Factories' on TLC or Discovery. There's a lot of equipment, programming, line testing and more that has to be setup and tested before you can ever think about starting your production runs. And who really knows how long cars have already been in the works behind the scenes. Plus, we are having design, prototypes, testing, and much more being done around the world, not just here. Before the internet, we would sit and read the latest news in the ragazines and that information was always months behind and then one day, there were the cars. We have become too accustomed to the instant information pipeline and things just don't move that quickly for everything.

There's going to be a lot of information starting to come out this year in preparation for the cars release. My salesman told me today that Chevrolet is going to have another website just for the Camaro coming soon. The link is not active yet, so no need to post it up. As soon as it is, believe me, you'll see it here or one of the other forums that day. Keep checking back.

Be happy that we're getting another affordable, RWD performance car for the V-8 crowd with the name Camaro assigned to it.

Hope you 'keep the faith' a little longer, I think it's gonna be worth it.

True.... I am anxious to own a new Camaro but at the same time I am patient enough to understand that it takes time to work out the details and get the car ready for production. The Viper is a purpose built car, and as mentioned above is produced in limited numbers. The Camaro needs to be a car for the masses, it needs to ride well, handle well, and work well for the the V6 to the Monster V8... the Viper does not have that versatility. My thought is if the Camaro team rushes production they will either miss some detail or cut corners which will doom the car to a short life... something that most of us do not want to see again. I feel the Camaro is in capable hands and willing to wait patiently so I can order my dream car.

Keep up the good work Scott and Team!!

Roger

1969 RS Camaro
1953 356 Porsche
1957 Chevy PU (Wife's)
1977 Blazer 2WD (L98)
2006 Magnum R/T

I hate the wait. But, building a whole new US platform based on an existing engineering exercise between Holden and GM --- T A K E S T I M E.

What gives me the warm-fuzzies are - GM is producing a car that is taking advantage of all the racing experience gathered by Holden in the V8 Supercar racing series, for a FRACTION of what it would cost to do it themselves.

AND -- they are taking the time to not only make the engineering "right" for us American folks -- they are also MAKING SURE it will (very difficult to do) appeal to the "masses" for an INCREDIBLE price-point. :cool:

I D A R E you to do better. :rolleyes:

I am willing to wait, despite the aforementioned "annoyances."

Quality, reliability, performance, and styling TAKES TIME.

'Nuff said?????? :p

GO FBODFATHER AND ALL GM FOLKS!!!!!!

We can't thank you enough. Seriously.

THANK YOU. :bow:

to answer your question, yes, yes your the only one.

Faith. keep it. :)

"Good things come to those who wait" :)

..That still thinks it is absolutely absurd that it is taking almost 4 years for GM to bring this car to production? I mean it took the Viper 18 months to hit the showroom - a car without a shared platform. When I heard back in 2006 that I would have to wait 4 years until this thing hit the road, I was beyond disgusted. I think its a miracle that I've been able to hold interest up to this point... Granted, it is exciting with the pictures and info that has been coming out about the car as of late, but there are still many unannounced details (engines, pricing, basic dimensions) that could doom the car months before it hits showrooms, and I think we are all giving GM a bit too much credit at this point. As a long time f-body owner I am as excited as the next enthusiast about the potential of the car, and as of now I fully intend to pick one up immediately if the optimistic rumors prove to be true, but I think GM's strategy of bringing the car to market is yet another embarrassment for the company. I just hope that they can make up for it and back up the hype.

As far as the pre-production pictures, the car appears considerably narrower/taller than the concept, and more "boulbus" overall with softer edges. But like most everyone else, I will hold judgment until I see it in person (or at least considerably more pictures from different angles). I guess it is still a huge success in comparison to other concept to production transitions. I just hope I can keep what little faith I have left until next Feb, because if they miss the target on this one I know I won't be buying another GM product again.


Considering the fact Chevy had to wait till the Zeta Sedans were ready and the hold on the Zeta slowed them down for a short time. And the fact the plant to build it is just now becoming available.

This ont he Camaro have to move in concert with related GM project. Everything does not revolve around the Camaro. Once you learn how thing work and how they have to work with other projects you then understand the time and effort involved in building this car.

The time taken is not strange as in many cases you never even knew about the car till it already was in the works for 2 year or more.

When GM did the Fiero it was concieved in 1978 and with related delays it took till 1984 to intro. In reality it too longer to bring that car to market than it sold.

This is why what they decide now will effectr things in 2020.

Yeah - you're the only one......and frankly.....I'm bored :bang:with people complaining about this (among other things).

I saw BB3 at NAIAS yesterday and this car is crack on wheels.......I just can't get enough!!! To everyone on the Camaro team (and Scott) - THANK YOU!!! And keep up the great work!!!

You really sound like somebody that is too impatient...

"If they don't meet the established fuzzy launch date, i'm never going to buy GM again"

After reading this i hope they miss your imaginative deadline by a week, so there will be 1 more Camaro on the market for someone who will truely appreciate it... like me.

I have to second that. YES, you are the only one. Just go buy that Silver or Blah Camary you've been hankering for.

After reading this i hope they miss your imaginative deadline by a week, so there will be 1 more Camaro on the market for someone who will truely appreciate it... like me.

Screw that! I hope they're 4 months early so after the dealer mark-up bull**** is over with, I can get mine around may/june :p

When GM did the Fiero it was concieved in 1978 and with related delays it took till 1984 to intro. In reality it too longer to bring that car to market than it sold.

Hopefully there aren't ANY parallels between the Fiero and the new Camaro, because we know how that turned out...

And yes, I am impatient, I will admit that much - but don't try and tell me that there aren't hundreds of others on here that aren't as well. The only difference is that I am not taking the approach that "GM knows exactly what it is doing, and everything about the car and its release will be ideal", because the past has taught us otherwise again and again. As an owner of 2 4th gens, there is no doubt that I love the cars, but from a quality and reliability perspective, the 4th gen is a piece of trash. Like it was brought up in the CHP thread, GM has looked at enthusiasts like us as suckers because they had no problem putting out sub-par product knowing all to well that we'll just shell out the cash for a new transmission, window motor, or rear end - there is no other logical explanation. All I am saying is that I hope GM has turned a corner and makes all of the hype worth it in the end. I want to see this car be successful and carry on the name for another 40 years...

The true failure of GM was not showing this concept in 2000. 1993 to 2002 is quite a long time to look at a car and try to think of it as new. Yes i know there was a new front and LS1 but really almost 10 years is a bit much. The Vette, which is a much lower volume car has changed 3 times since 1993. And I am not talking front end changes. GM really needs to get on the ball if they want to stay competitive. Selling the same car for 10 years with no plans to upgrade is a reason why I drive a non GM car today. My 95 Z just sits in the garage waiting for the next gen to replace it. Iraq will be over and Global warming will be solved it feels like till the next Gen Camaro hits the streets. It is a long time to wait...agreed.

GM really needs to get on the ball if they want to stay competitive.

This is basically what it all boils down to...

BTW I have owned 3 z28s. A 1993...when I thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread, and 2 1995s. Back in High school it was a cool car but you can hardly drive a 4th Gen today without looking like that guy I used to laugh at in his IROC. I am far from being in high school now and still waiting for a car to replace the one I have owned for 13 years. What I am trying to say...again is, this car is long over due.

IMO, Chevrolet is going to be about 7 years too late when it is all said and done....

But....good things come to those who wait.....

^I disagree. I think the Camaro being cancelled was the best thing that could have ever happened to the car. A 2003 redesign would have most likely looked nothing like the amazing car we'll be getting soon and that car would be due for a redesign by about '09 and again, I doubt it would have looked as good as what we're getting. GM FINALLY "get's it." I will agree that the car we're getting will be about 1.5-2 years "late" but I don't care. I love it.

Of course, that's completely my own opinion.

^I disagree. I think the Camaro being cancelled was the best thing that could have ever happened to the car. A 2003 redesign would have most likely looked nothing like the amazing car we'll be getting soon and that car would be due for a redesign by about '09 and again, I doubt it would have looked as good as what we're getting. GM FINALLY "get's it." I will agree that the car we're getting will be about 1.5-2 years "late" but I don't care. I love it.

Of course, that's completely my own opinion.+1. I'm not sure I would have even considered the 2003 replacement, whereas I'm definitely buying this one.:D

Who's to say what we would or would not have gotten....honestly....

To me, the hiatus is not just forgiven and forgotten no matter how good the 5th Gen is.....but maybe I am the only one.... :)

Who's to say what we would or would not have gotten....honestly....True. However the 2002 Camaro didn't meet 2003 safety standards and GM had nothing on a RWD chassis to place it on that did. We either would have gotten a Camaro on a SUV platform, or FWD. Neither would have floated my boat. It took a while longer for GM to discover Holden's RWD toys and consider importing them to NA. At best we could have gotten a middle east Lumina rebadged as a "Camaro" (ala GTO). I'm not sure that would have gone over very well either. :D

True. However the 2002 Camaro didn't meet 2003 safety standards and GM had nothing on a RWD chassis to place it on that did. We either would have gotten a Camaro on a SUV platform, or FWD. Neither would have floated my boat. It took a while longer for GM to discover Holden's RWD toys and consider importing them to NA. At best we could have gotten a middle east Lumina rebadged as a "Camaro" (ala GTO). I'm not sure that would have gone over very well either. :D

No no, the problems of no viable platform, etc. etc. didn't just start in August of 2002. Camaro's fate was sealed way back in 1996. A full 6 years before the final 4th Gen rolled off the line.

So you can basically say it took over 10 years (from 1996-August 2006 when the production announcement was made) for Chevrolet to get serious about Camaro again. Kind of pathetic if you ask me. :shrug:

No no, the problems of no viable platform, etc. etc. didn't just start in August of 2002. Camaro's fate was sealed way back in 1996. A full 6 years before the final 4th Gen rolled off the line.

So you can basically say it took over 10 years (from 1996-August 2006 when the production announcement was made) for Chevrolet to get serious about Camaro again. Kind of pathetic if you ask me. :shrug:Good point.

Hopefully there aren't ANY parallels between the Fiero and the new Camaro, because we know how that turned out...

I hope that there's a parallel to the nearly 137,000 Fieros GM sold the first year. The biggest problem with Fiero was insurance rates. Nobody wants to pay 'Vette insurance rates for a car that goes 0-60 in 14 seconds! Yes there were reliability problems and the first suspension was a travesty, but by the time the last ones rolled around in 1987 Fiero was a pretty decent car. The 2nd gen probably would have been pretty darn good for the time had it made production. Eh, that's overly apologetic. It was a little t*rd in a lot of ways. But I always kinda liked them.

I hope that there's a parallel to the nearly 137,000 Fieros GM sold the first year. The biggest problem with Fiero was insurance rates. Nobody wants to pay 'Vette insurance rates for a car that goes 0-60 in 14 seconds! Yes there were reliability problems and the first suspension was a travesty, but by the time the last ones rolled around in 1987 Fiero was a pretty decent car. The 2nd gen probably would have been pretty darn good for the time had it made production. Eh, that's overly apologetic. It was a little t*rd in a lot of ways. But I always kinda liked them.

Tell that to the hundreds of owners who watched their car spontaneously combust due to poorly cast connecting rods. I think that's what the automotive industry thinks of when they hear 'Fiero'.

GM really needs to get on the ball if they want to stay competitive.

GM is doing a great job of being competitive in more and more segments. I have no doubt that they will be competitive in this segment too.

No no, the problems of no viable platform, etc. etc. didn't just start in August of 2002. Camaro's fate was sealed way back in 1996. A full 6 years before the final 4th Gen rolled off the line.

So you can basically say it took over 10 years (from 1996-August 2006 when the production announcement was made) for Chevrolet to get serious about Camaro again. Kind of pathetic if you ask me. :shrug:

I'm going to play the devils advocate here. While many people would consider what happened to the Camaro pathetic, in terms of how long it took to bring it back you have to look at it from a larger prospective. I've never worked for an automotive manufacturer but I do work for a large corporation and most of the time the decisions that are made "above your pay grade" have a massive impact on your final product and the future of your product, including the quality of your product.

When it comes down to it, the people working directly on a project really don’t call the shots. When the decision was made to kill this car, I'm sure it was from a MACRO point of view of the company as a whole. Most people don't take this point of view. Most people take the MICRO point of view. When you take the MICRO point of view, you don't see the bigger picture. You begin ask a lot of “why” questions and you begin to criticize aspects of the product or the intentions of the personnel that are producing the product not realizing that there is a much bigger force at work that is driving all of this. Most of the time you piss a lot of people off when you make these decisions but you have to in order to restructure and create a better product. You hope that it doesn't take long to accomplish but things don't always go as planned. Especially in big buisnesses.

I don't think it was the intention of the personnel that were directly involved with the Camaros of the past to see them go the way of the dinosaur. I'm sure their intention was to keep it alive, healthy and a major competitor in both performance and reliability. Well, those things weren’t happening so an executive decision was made. Most of the time executive decisions are made to prevent major collateral damage.

IMO, just be thankful that they even brought it back at all because they could have very well went in a much different direction and just left the Camaro dead.

GM is doing a great job of being competitive in more and more segments. I have no doubt that they will be competitive in this segment too.

Competitive at making rental cars. Giving the entire ponycar, police and taxi market to Ford was a mistake. Currently GM is also seen as unable to compete with foreign makers in terms of build quality and design. GM has been on top for so long they forgot to try. Companies like Hyundai are trying really hard to take down companies like GM. The problem is GM keeps letting them win.

ToneC you do have a point but GM let the car die. They in turn handed the whole market to Ford. If it feels like GM is trying to play catch up by having a retro styled ponycar, it is because they are. We all understand that CEOs and Board of Directors all shoot for the big picture. Now the decisions they make may not be right, despite the intentions. When I bought my Z28 in 1995 GM was #1. If the big plan was to loose money and drop out of being the #1 US car seller then their big picture plan worked. However, I doubt GM wanted that just like Coke getting rid of Coke...only to realize their mistake and bring it back...just like GM. I am saying GM made a mistake by letting the Camaro die, and this mistake was further exacerbated by not planning further generation Camaros. What we are left with is a 17 year time frame between the beginning of one generation to the next. And that is a very, very long time.

When it comes down to it, the people working directly on a project really don’t call the shots. When the decision was made to kill this car, I'm sure it was from a MACRO point of view of the company as a whole.

There is no doubt about this.. I don't think anybody intends to bad mouth the GM people that are on the Camaro project. I'm sure they're enthusiasts in one way or another, and want everything that the majority on this board want as far as the new car. The problem is GM's overall leadership and strategy - it blows. Just look at the company has performed in the past number of years.. it would be hard for them to perform any worse without the entire corporation collapsing. They have consistently been a step behind, and the competition has been raping them - deservedly. Their stock is less than 50% of what it was just 4 years ago. Look at all the plants they have closed down. The new Malibu seems to be making a lot of noise in the market as of late, lets hope this carries over.

Competitive at making rental cars. Giving the entire ponycar, police and taxi market to Ford was a mistake. Currently GM is also seen as unable to compete with foreign makers in terms of build quality and design. GM has been on top for so long they forgot to try. Companies like Hyundai are trying really hard to take down companies like GM. The problem is GM keeps letting them win.

Ok, so they make good rental cars? Then what would you consider a police or taxi to be? They're nothing more than a glorified rental car.

GM made an intelligent move by axing the police and taxi sales and cutting back on their rental sales.

Police and taxi sales are nothing more than high volume, low profit sales that end up costing more in warranty repairs than privately purchased vehicles (I have no proof for this, but I would assume based on the abuse they go through, this would be common sense?)

So please, tell me, since Ford is making such a killing with their police and taxi sales, why isn't Toyota jumping in on this awesome sales endeavor?

GM cars not competitive? New CTS and Malibu seem to be highly praised in the media, as is many of Saturns new products. Wait until all of GM's line-up is refreshed under Lutz....

Who lost their second best selling sales slot to Toyota????

Ford is by no means an example of how to do business. But the point is if you go to rent a car you will be sitting in a stripped down Malibu that is impressive only in how crappy it is. Everyone I know that travels for business is aware only of the poor quality of GM and Ford. My comment was intended to show that most people regard GM and Ford cars as rental/fleet cars. Not something you would go out and buy. That being said almost all cop cars of Ford and Mustang is the only car of its class. GM simply gave up two huge markets there. The point is to sell cars.

I have seen a lot of new Malibus at the dealer lot but not one on the street. I have seen plenty of Sonatas, Accords and Camrys on the road and in peoples driveways. The fact is GM and Ford relied too heavily on truck and SUV sales. With gas prices and ever growing competition GM and Ford are looking at serious problems.

Letting the Camaro die was a mistake and reaction to making a new Camaro was and continues to be a slow process. The Japanese are still more efficient at development and production. The Camaro is a niche market with strong customer support. To let that languish like GM did till its ultimate death is just plain bad business. As the global oil market continues to fluctuate, and environmental concerns form new regulations, the 5th Gen may be too little too late.

There is no doubt about this.. I don't think anybody intends to bad mouth the GM people that are on the Camaro project. I'm sure they're enthusiasts in one way or another, and want everything that the majority on this board want as far as the new car. The problem is GM's overall leadership and strategy - it blows. Just look at the company has performed in the past number of years.. it would be hard for them to perform any worse without the entire corporation collapsing. They have consistently been a step behind, and the competition has been raping them - deservedly. Their stock is less than 50% of what it was just 4 years ago. Look at all the plants they have closed down. The new Malibu seems to be making a lot of noise in the market as of late, lets hope this carries over.

You have a good point as well. Maybe the overall leadership needs to be reviewd :D, J/K.

Look,

We all know they haven't kept up the QA/QC but they sure have kept up the prices. The bottom line is that they were producing crap cars and charging good money for them. If you're blind to that fact, then you have either been under a rock or you are a true loyalist. I know there are many GM loyal people. God bless them. Their whole family drives nothing but GM. I work with people like this. Being a loyalist to the point where a company is producing junk and you still buy it is kind of like being an abused child. At first, you were treated with love and respect and that changed to you taking daily beatings for years despite the fact that you were loving and loyal to your family. Yet, you still hang around, hoping things will be better, that your keepers will love you again one day. You know, it's sort of like being a Cincinatti Bengals fan.

We could discuss this until the cows came home but it wouldn't do any good. I just hope lessons learned are reviewed often and this car is a home run in every way.

I want SO bad to buy an American car again and to be proud to say that I own one. As of late, many many Americans aren't jumping for joy when they buy a new American vehicle. It's time to turn this company around.

most people are replying with full essays so i didn't read much of the thread, but I probably wouldn't be ready to buy one much sooner than they're due out anyway. I did have to buy my '96 to hold me over a little though.

If it were coming out this fall as an '09 I would be happy (jan '09 as a '10 is a little redicuous and '09 brings thoughts of the iconic '69 to me). If it takes a little longer to bring out and they're are few bugs it will be worth it, but if it comes out with all sorts of problems then I'll have a problem.

You guys have to remember that in 2000 the car was suppose to be dead there was never suppose to be a camaro coming back. So how can they release a concept on a car that was deamed dead?
There wasnt even a smuge of hope of the car coming back until 04 & even then there wasnt really a light at the end of the tunnel it was just a flicker. it wasnt until the end of 05 that we started to see the true lights & as scott said it wasnt until August that we really had any hope of the camaro coming back. Yes when they released the concept it was a nice car & they were most likely hoping the car would send a message.


before that was said & done the car was suppose to be dead in 98 guys like scott kept it going until 02.

Yes...yes you are.:tired:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




No, you're not the only one. Knowing all the reasons why...it's too long!

Some people just won't accept that resentments run deep!





:cry:

I think the time delay is building a LOT of hype! Like waiting to open the Christmas presents when you were 10 y/o... The anticipation is GREAT!!! :cool:

I think GM is just trying to do this right so it won't flop, which I'm sure it won't!

Ford is by no means an example of how to do business. But the point is if you go to rent a car you will be sitting in a stripped down Malibu that is impressive only in how crappy it is. Everyone I know that travels for business is aware only of the poor quality of GM and Ford. My comment was intended to show that most people regard GM and Ford cars as rental/fleet cars. Not something you would go out and buy. That being said almost all cop cars of Ford and Mustang is the only car of its class. GM simply gave up two huge markets there. The point is to sell cars.

I have seen a lot of new Malibus at the dealer lot but not one on the street. I have seen plenty of Sonatas, Accords and Camrys on the road and in peoples driveways. The fact is GM and Ford relied too heavily on truck and SUV sales. With gas prices and ever growing competition GM and Ford are looking at serious problems.

Letting the Camaro die was a mistake and reaction to making a new Camaro was and continues to be a slow process. The Japanese are still more efficient at development and production. The Camaro is a niche market with strong customer support. To let that languish like GM did till its ultimate death is just plain bad business. As the global oil market continues to fluctuate, and environmental concerns form new regulations, the 5th Gen may be too little too late.

Trying to sift through your heavily opinion laced thoughts to find some real factual information makes the cliché needle in the haystack seem almost plausible. I understand your rant and how you and your friends at home and at work seem like a good group for USA Today/Gallup polling info on GM cars and quality but I hate to say they are not. Also your attempt for scientific quantitative measurements consists only of the foreign cars seen on the roads you travel and the amount of new Malibu’s on a random Chevy dealer lot as opposed to one seen on the road, again by your own two eyes. Contrary to what you may think your little “world” and all those who populate it are a very small spec on the grand map of the real world and no not the one on MTV.

My hometown, a large Midwestern city once known as the arsenal of democracy, has plenty of GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles on the streets and in driveways. I’ve even seen Malibu’s on the streets before being on dealer lots. I now live in a strong foreign car wonderland with wide lanes of traffic and more taco varieties than one should ever eat. But even here on the point of entry for the Asian brands I see a slight resurgence of domestic cars and brands. Some Camry and Accord buyers are in Chrysler 300’s or Chargers. Some MX5 and Miata drivers now in Solstice and Sky roadsters and even a few Prius pilots have turned to the Escape Hybrid or Tahoe. Shocking I know!

Point is someplace between our little “worlds” seen true by our own eyes lies reality. So feel free to add some info to support your points at any time. I’d start with JD Power, Consumer Reports, Polk Automotive data and research and maybe next time the line between reality and opinion won’t be quite so blurred, at least in your eyes that is.

I guess I was also considering the fact that the top model is projected to come out a year after the base.


what makes you think we'll ever be finished? (where we say -- OK -- that's it..........that's the top dog! We're done!) -- Everyone thought the Z06 was the ultimate Corvette -- we proved that wrong this week at NAIAS,didn't we?????

, but from a quality and reliability perspective, the 4th gen is a piece of trash. Like it was brought up in the CHP thread, GM has looked at enthusiasts like us as suckers because they had no problem putting out sub-par product knowing all to well that we'll just shell out the cash for a new transmission, window motor, or rear end - there is no other logical explanation.

you are wrong.

The 4thgen cars were the highest quality F cars built. I have the warranty data to prove it.

I can assure you that we DON'T look at you (the community) as suckers.

Trying to sift through your heavily opinion laced thoughts to find some real factual information makes the cliché needle in the haystack seem almost plausible. I understand your rant and how you and your friends at home and at work seem like a good group for USA Today/Gallup polling info on GM cars and quality but I hate to say they are not. Also your attempt for scientific quantitative measurements consists only of the foreign cars seen on the roads you travel and the amount of new Malibu’s on a random Chevy dealer lot as opposed to one seen on the road, again by your own two eyes. Contrary to what you may think your little “world” and all those who populate it are a very small spec on the grand map of the real world and no not the one on MTV.

My hometown, a large Midwestern city once known as the arsenal of democracy, has plenty of GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles on the streets and in driveways. I’ve even seen Malibu’s on the streets before being on dealer lots. I now live in a strong foreign car wonderland with wide lanes of traffic and more taco varieties than one should ever eat. But even here on the point of entry for the Asian brands I see a slight resurgence of domestic cars and brands. Some Camry and Accord buyers are in Chrysler 300’s or Chargers. Some MX5 and Miata drivers now in Solstice and Sky roadsters and even a few Prius pilots have turned to the Escape Hybrid or Tahoe. Shocking I know!

Point is someplace between our little “worlds” seen true by our own eyes lies reality. So feel free to add some info to support your points at any time. I’d start with JD Power, Consumer Reports, Polk Automotive data and research and maybe next time the line between reality and opinion won’t be quite so blurred, at least in your eyes that is.

You ARE, indeed, a wise young man!

Very well put.

99SilverSS

Thanks for the input, I know its my opinion. BTW public opinion matters and GM must improve its public perception. I also feel GM is making better cars, but it takes a lot of rights to sway the masses. However, the point of this thread is your "opinion" on Camaro development time. I simply state that the wait between 1993 and 2010 is too long. You can argue till the cows come home about your world and mine, but waiting 17 years for a new generation Camaro is a long time, period.

you are wrong.

The 4thgen cars were the highest quality F cars built. I have the warranty data to prove it.

I can assure you that we DON'T look at you (the community) as suckers.

They may have been the highest quality F cars built, but they were still poor in quality and reliability in terms of a vehicle. The automatic transmissions were garbage, along with the rear-ends - a 12 bolt should have been standard. What about the oil leak behind the intake manifold on the LT1s? The window motors? The piston slap with the LS1's? As fun as it was, I sold my first LT1 because it was an omen and a money pit. There is no denying that all of these problems were common across the board with 4 gens, and that they are inexcusable results of poor engineering and QA.

They may have been the highest quality F cars built, but they were still poor in quality and reliability in terms of a vehicle. The automatic transmissions were garbage, along with the rear-ends - a 12 bolt should have been standard. What about the oil leak behind the intake manifold on the LT1s? The window motors? The piston slap with the LS1's? As fun as it was, I sold my first LT1 because it was an omen and a money pit. There is no denying that all of these problems were common across the board with 4 gens, and that they are inexcusable results of poor engineering and QA.

Opti Spark:(

They may have been the highest quality F cars built, but they were still poor in quality and reliability in terms of a vehicle. The automatic transmissions were garbage, along with the rear-ends - a 12 bolt should have been standard. What about the oil leak behind the intake manifold on the LT1s? The window motors? The piston slap with the LS1's? As fun as it was, I sold my first LT1 because it was an omen and a money pit. There is no denying that all of these problems were common across the board with 4 gens, and that they are inexcusable results of poor engineering and QA.

I've had three 4th Gens; Two automatics with the LT1 and an M6 in the LS1. I totally disagree with your opinion that all 4th Gens are pieces of cr@p that suffer from the above problems.

-"Garbage" Transmissions? Don't know about that. I've had ZERO problems with my two A4's, in fact my 96 "beater" has the original tranny @ 106K miles.

-"Garbage" Rear Ends? :tired: They were more than strong enough for my "spirited" street driving and occasional blasts down the 1/4 mile. SURELY anyone that is "serious" about racing realizes that breaking parts is a risk you take. But the VAST MAJORITY of owners will never have a need for anything stronger. I will admit though to putting a rear end girdle with pre-load bolts (correct term?) on my 01 SS "just in case".

-Neither of my LT1's had the rear intake oil leak.

-Window motors? Out of the three, I've only had to replace the driver's motor on my 106K mile "beater", but I will admit the passenger's is on the way out. But I never had a problem with my 95 Z or '01 SS motors.
-Piston Slap? Big deal. Some LS1 Corvettes had the issue as well. Hell, my '01 SS would slap when it was VERY cold, but like all the others it would go away once the car warmed up a bit. Piston slap was a NON-ISSUE as far as reliability/longevity was concerned.

Sorry you had a bad experience with 4th Gens, but from 1997 to present I've owned three for a combined total of about 8 years and 60,000 miles. The only "real" issues I've had are a bad EGR valve, one bad window motor, two torn tranny mounts and a leaking water pump seal (at 106K miles).....that's it.

It seems your bad experience with your LT1 has tainted your opinion of GM in general.

Did I forget to mention that I will wait. And I will be happy. And I will be satisfied? Nope. Didn't think so.

Such as the ZR1 can be considered the best Vette ever -- the new Camaro will be the Best Camaro Ever.

Can't wait to prove myself right. Again. <sigh>

Let all the haters and doubters take a subtle exit to -- stage left. The bouncers are waiting for you. :D

FBODFATHER- Just PLEASE let us know when it will be fiscally responsible to start putting in deposits for the V8 model of this beast. I dont want the Top Dog - I just want 400+ ponies in a reliable coupe. And then, the circle between my '69 and the "New '69" will be complete.

You are most-welcome to drive her anytime you wish, should you decide to visit Big D. My pleasure. :)

You guys have to remember that in 2000 the car was suppose to be dead there was never suppose to be a camaro coming back. So how can they release a concept on a car that was deamed dead?
There wasnt even a smuge of hope of the car coming back until 04 & even then there wasnt really a light at the end of the tunnel it was just a flicker. it wasnt until the end of 05 that we started to see the true lights & as scott said it wasnt until August that we really had any hope of the camaro coming back....

I think you're exaggerating quite a bit for effect. The Forum can only be searched back to 2002, but even then Scott was telling folks to "have faith (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45516&postcount=26)" (maybe even "keep the faith" at that time) when referencing Camaro. Surely that was meant, at a minimum, to not lose hope?

I would suggest that we all had a pretty good idea the car was coming back WAAAAYYYY before 2005 - we simply didn't know when, and most didn't expect it to be 2009 as a 2010 model.

Bob

The car was already on the way to being dead in 1997 or so. I believe it is accurate that 2000 was supposed to be the last year, but they managed to hang on for another couple of years. It was on "hiatus" after 2002 but there were no real plans for another one at that time. I think there were just a few documents and very basic cases studies for a long time that had just as much of a chance of being filed away somewhere and turning to dust as it did growing into a production car.

They may have been the highest quality F cars built, but they were still poor in quality and reliability in terms of a vehicle. The automatic transmissions were garbage, along with the rear-ends - a 12 bolt should have been standard. What about the oil leak behind the intake manifold on the LT1s? The window motors? The piston slap with the LS1's? As fun as it was, I sold my first LT1 because it was an omen and a money pit. There is no denying that all of these problems were common across the board with 4 gens, and that they are inexcusable results of poor engineering and QA.


Dear Mr. Malice.

A little history lesson first......

The name Camaro means 'Friend, pal, or Comrade....."

.
.
.
.

This is a Camaro site -- yes, it's a free country -- however, I notice that:

#1 -- you are new on here.....(I make that assumption based on the number of posts.....)

#2-- there is Zero personal info. about you --- (and that makes me suspicious.....)

......

I'm curious as to what your profession is.

Have you ever engineered a car or truck? If so, I'd be interested in which vehicle(s) it was/were.

I will agree that the power window motors were very problematic.....and I know this because we replaced many of them under warranty and many of our enthusiasts contacted me about it -- or told me about it as I travelled all over the country to attend Camaro/Firebird shows.

As to your charges that the transmissions were ...." Garbage " (your word, not mine) I would ask you to please show meaningful evidence and the data to back up this charge. (you can't.........and "well mine and my buddy's failed" isn't meaningful data.......)

Yes -- a 12 bolt should have been standard -- and we should have had larger brakes -- and many other parts should have been more "heavy duty" -- there's a problem with that -- and it's called "weight" --(wanna get peopel hysterical once again on this site? Bring up 'weight' and sit back and watch the fur fly......) ............ Adding a heavier axle and brakes and such would have negatively affected CAFE not only for the F car but the entire GM portfolio. The number of axle failures are very low -- below industry average, as a matter of fact -- and that's WITH the knowledge that most axle failures are due to drag racing or 'stupidity" ( by 'stupidity" I mean "Hey everyone - watch me ruin a perfectly good set of Goodyears!!!!" -- as I unfortunately witnessed all too often........)

Piston Slap? Most of what people consider to be 'piston slap' is actually noisy fuel injectors or, in some cases, bent pushrods -- (from that "hey everyone-- watch me ruin a perfectly good get of Goodyears and a couple of pushrods!!!)

You may be interested to know that we repurchased several dozen Fcars with LS1engines that exhibited more noise than normal -- and ran some of them at the rev limiter for 24 hours or more -- and took others north of 250K miles -- none failed. I'd say that this is a great testament to a great engine family.

You may also be interested to know that the early 4th gen cars won awards for quality -- and in fact if you go back to read magazine articles in that timeperiod, many journalists talked about the great quality. The problem is that the car got old.

I'm not saying the Camaro (and Firebird) were world-class quality leaders -- but they weren't as bad as you seem to be making them.

Further, a decision was made to end production at the end of the 1998 model year--- and this decision was made at the end of 1995 or early 1996.........we were able to keep it in production thru 2002 based on demand for the LS1 engine which drove profitability. (you'd fall off your chair if I told you how much money we lost on the Fcar in 1996-1997.....)

(Do you want to guess when the initial engineering took place on the 4th gen architecture?)

I don't mean to flame you -- but you need to perhaps chill a bit and learn a little bit more about the 4th gen Fcar. And perhaps you need to attend a few Camaro/Firebird shows and look at the cars out there with little or no warranty claims..................

(Do you want to guess when the initial engineering took place on the 4th gen architecture?)


If you mean the REAL initial engineering, I'd say late 70's. :D

Competitive at making rental cars. Giving the entire ponycar, police and taxi market to Ford was a mistake. Currently GM is also seen as unable to compete with foreign makers in terms of build quality and design. GM has been on top for so long they forgot to try. Companies like Hyundai are trying really hard to take down companies like GM. The problem is GM keeps letting them win.

Well, you should probably take a seat in some of these rental cars, and then take a seat in some of these quality giants like Hyundai or take a gander at all mighty Toyota. GM WAS unable to keep up with the foriegn auto makers, but that gap was being closed in on in 2004, and here we are in 2008 and we have the CTS winning car of the year, Silverado winning truck of the year, Aura and Malibu winningback to bac North American Car of the Year, on top of tons of other awards and comments made on the "New GM".

Ford is by no means an example of how to do business. But the point is if you go to rent a car you will be sitting in a stripped down Malibu that is impressive only in how crappy it is. Everyone I know that travels for business is aware only of the poor quality of GM and Ford. My comment was intended to show that most people regard GM and Ford cars as rental/fleet cars. Not something you would go out and buy. That being said almost all cop cars of Ford and Mustang is the only car of its class. GM simply gave up two huge markets there. The point is to sell cars.

Again, grab some seat time in these poor cars. Please do so. Bring your friends. Ford dominates the police market? NYC uses ALL Chevy Impala. A lot of local police stations are switching to the new Impala for police duties. Impala sales are still higher then the LX and Panther cars.
Mustang is the only car in its class? What class is that? Muscle Car class?
In the 2 door sports coupe class, it is not alone. Just cause a 40 year old name got put back in rotation doesnt make the Mustang any different then any other 2 door sports coupe.

I have seen a lot of new Malibus at the dealer lot but not one on the street. I have seen plenty of Sonatas, Accords and Camrys on the road and in peoples driveways. The fact is GM and Ford relied too heavily on truck and SUV sales. With gas prices and ever growing competition GM and Ford are looking at serious problems.

Malibus have been out for less then 2 months. Sonata, Accord and Camry's have been out for 2 years now. I have seen more new Malibus then new Accords.
GM and Ford did rely on the heavy profit SUV's, but guess what sells at a million units a clip? I guess they put their money on there best selling product. They didnt forsee that there would be heavy speculation in the gas market, artificially inflating the cost of gas, on top of the dollar falling like a rock off a cliff. Not to remind you boys and gals, that 5 years ago gas was cheaper a gallon then water was for 20 oz or 1/3 the price of a tall mocalatte from Starbucks.
And to tie it all together, take a quick peek again at Green Toyota Tundra and bigger and thirstier Sequia. Toyota is falling into the truck trap as well, but people are still buying.


Letting the Camaro die was a mistake and reaction to making a new Camaro was and continues to be a slow process. The Japanese are still more efficient at development and production. The Camaro is a niche market with strong customer support. To let that languish like GM did till its ultimate death is just plain bad business. As the global oil market continues to fluctuate, and environmental concerns form new regulations, the 5th Gen may be too little too late.

Here we go again with too little too late. TOO LATE FOR WHAT!!?!:?!?! SOMEONE TELL ME LATE TO WHAT!! Is there a limit to how many cars that a compay can sell at a certain dead line?
Was it too late or Chevy to release a Camaro 3 years after Mustang launched to over 1 million units sold in the first 1.5years?
Was it too late for GM to launch a modern high tech tuned port fuel injection to give us both performance AND economy, breathing life back into the whole muscle car?
What is Camaro late for? Do you have some where to be come this time next year, andyou need a 2 door sports car? Global oil market, blah blah blah enviromental jiberish crap.
LS1 Fbodies got up to 30mpg in highway crusing, it was a ULEV engine, and oh yeah IT MADE 300HP.
Please, tell me what Camaro is late for? Is it too late for you? Cause its not too late for me. Hell, its almost right on time.

If its too long for you or anyone else, please dont waste your time posting on here. Take your money on down to Ford, pick up one of the 20348u03248203843 variations of the Mustang GT with whatever decoration package you wana throw together and be done with it, "before its too late!"


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




No, you're not the only one. Knowing all the reasons why...it's too long!

Some people just won't accept that resentments run deep!





:cry:

Knowing all the reasons why....what? Why the Camaro team is putting together probably the best sports car money can buy in abit over 2 years, out of nothing? Yeah...wtf snap out of it GM!! That brand new Delta platform, scrap it! The new Epsilon II platform, with its ability to deliver a world class midsized sedan, STOP!
And everything else, hault so we can get this car out to people!!

99SilverSS

Thanks for the input, I know its my opinion. BTW public opinion matters and GM must improve its public perception. I also feel GM is making better cars, but it takes a lot of rights to sway the masses. However, the point of this thread is your "opinion" on Camaro development time. I simply state that the wait between 1993 and 2010 is too long. You can argue till the cows come home about your world and mine, but waiting 17 years for a new generation Camaro is a long time, period.

GM is doing a great job and improving opinion with its new produts.
If you have been waiting from 93 to get a new Camaro...dude, thats really really sad.
Ive been waiting 24 years to own a Camaro, my first Camaro that I purchased new with my money, the way I wanted, so I can park it next to my other 2, which were purchased new by my father and grandfather.


Sorry if I come off a little harsh, but I have been growing sick of hearing "opinions" of people about the Camaro taking too long.
I grew sick of people laughing in my face saying that Camaro would never return.
I got sick of people telling me that GM wont ever make a quality car
I got sick of people giving me thier opinions that Chevy would butcher the Camaro when it returns.
But you know what happens? I let my laptop rest for 7 mins, and it flashes that awesome (thanks Jason) Camaro concept screen saver. It takes me back to that wonderful morning in Cobo Hall, watching, hearing, feeling what people told me would never happen.

Dear Mr. Malice.

A little history lesson first......

The name Camaro means 'Friend, pal, or Comrade....."

.
.
.
.

This is a Camaro site -- yes, it's a free country -- however, I notice that:

#1 -- you are new on here.....(I make that assumption based on the number of posts.....)

#2-- there is Zero personal info. about you --- (and that makes me suspicious.....)

......

I'm curious as to what your profession is.

Have you ever engineered a car or truck? If so, I'd be interested in which vehicle(s) it was/were.

I will agree that the power window motors were very problematic.....and I know this because we replaced many of them under warranty and many of our enthusiasts contacted me about it -- or told me about it as I travelled all over the country to attend Camaro/Firebird shows.

As to your charges that the transmissions were ...." Garbage " (your word, not mine) I would ask you to please show meaningful evidence and the data to back up this charge. (you can't.........and "well mine and my buddy's failed" isn't meaningful data.......)

Yes -- a 12 bolt should have been standard -- and we should have had larger brakes -- and many other parts should have been more "heavy duty" -- there's a problem with that -- and it's called "weight" --(wanna get peopel hysterical once again on this site? Bring up 'weight' and sit back and watch the fur fly......) ............ Adding a heavier axle and brakes and such would have negatively affected CAFE not only for the F car but the entire GM portfolio. The number of axle failures are very low -- below industry average, as a matter of fact -- and that's WITH the knowledge that most axle failures are due to drag racing or 'stupidity" ( by 'stupidity" I mean "Hey everyone - watch me ruin a perfectly good set of Goodyears!!!!" -- as I unfortunately witnessed all too often........)

Piston Slap? Most of what people consider to be 'piston slap' is actually noisy fuel injectors or, in some cases, bent pushrods -- (from that "hey everyone-- watch me ruin a perfectly good get of Goodyears and a couple of pushrods!!!)

You may be interested to know that we repurchased several dozen Fcars with LS1engines that exhibited more noise than normal -- and ran some of them at the rev limiter for 24 hours or more -- and took others north of 250K miles -- none failed. I'd say that this is a great testament to a great engine family.

You may also be interested to know that the early 4th gen cars won awards for quality -- and in fact if you go back to read magazine articles in that timeperiod, many journalists talked about the great quality. The problem is that the car got old.

I'm not saying the Camaro (and Firebird) were world-class quality leaders -- but they weren't as bad as you seem to be making them.

Further, a decision was made to end production at the end of the 1998 model year--- and this decision was made at the end of 1995 or early 1996.........we were able to keep it in production thru 2002 based on demand for the LS1 engine which drove profitability. (you'd fall off your chair if I told you how much money we lost on the Fcar in 1996-1997.....)

(Do you want to guess when the initial engineering took place on the 4th gen architecture?)

I don't mean to flame you -- but you need to perhaps chill a bit and learn a little bit more about the 4th gen Fcar. And perhaps you need to attend a few Camaro/Firebird shows and look at the cars out there with little or no warranty claims..................
three questions, if you'd be so kind...

if the window motors were a known issue, why were they not fixed? or changed? i've been in a buick with windows that seemed to be the same size or larger than my camaro's and its windows fly, so there was absolutely a parts bin motor that could have been used. where did the window motor come from? was it a parts bin part or was it designed for the f-body?

when was the engineering done on the 4th gen f-body? late 80's?

did piston slap show up in testing before production? or was this one of those things that showed up in production vehicles and it was deemed fine? my camaro's piston slap you can hear clear through the house and can be heard at all times when its cold out, even when the car is warmed up :(


oops i guess thats four questions :)

"Good things come to those who wait" :)

agreed I would rather have them test the crap out of the car to work out any major bugs.

One of the things that people see (present website excluded) and one of the problems,
is that the car was shown in a concept form, (that pretty much reflects what the final outcome will be, or at least 95% of the look) a while ago.
Change a dimension here or there, or even some fine points, it still looks extremely close to the final design.
We have had now entering Autoshow Season #3 and you can still not buy the car.

Showing it so early, it is extremely hard to keep the hype train at full tilt.
I do know a lot of people who have lost interest in it.

The faithfull will stay, but some will just get tired of waiting.

three questions, if you'd be so kind...

if the window motors were a known issue, why were they not fixed? or changed? i've been in a buick with windows that seemed to be the same size or larger than my camaro's and its windows fly, so there was absolutely a parts bin motor that could have been used. where did the window motor come from? was it a parts bin part or was it designed for the f-body?

when was the engineering done on the 4th gen f-body? late 80's?

did piston slap show up in testing before production? or was this one of those things that showed up in production vehicles and it was deemed fine? my camaro's piston slap you can hear clear through the house and can be heard at all times when its cold out, even when the car is warmed up :(


oops i guess thats four questions :)
You can ask FBF anything you want. But since this is a public forum, I'll add my comment about the idea. He's not your personal 800-CHEVY-ONE contact for warranty issues. I've had several 4gen fbodies, including two with LS1's I bought new. I never had a piston slap or power window issue with my LS1 Firebirds. (I also never just sat around roasting my tires either - although I did take them to our local dragstrip a few times). I replaced a window motor myself on a used LT1 Formula I had previously. It's really not a big deal, if you are a little handy with tools - and the part was $20 on eBay. I wish people would stop the soulful window motor melodrama.

As for the OP in this thread, I agree with him about keeping the faith and yes, waiting is tough to do. But for him to malign the overall 4gen design is incredibly short-sighted and ill-informed. That design was an incredible performance coupe achievement for its time and an outstanding value for its buyers. I expect the new Camaro will be the same :bow:

Tell that to the hundreds of owners who watched their car spontaneously combust due to poorly cast connecting rods. I think that's what the automotive industry thinks of when they hear 'Fiero'.

By the time of the 1987 recall - when widespread knowledge of the engine fire problem on 1984s became public knowledge, the Fiero's fate was already pretty much sealed.

And those drivers didn't just "watch their cars spontaneously combust" due to no fault of their own. While the rods are admittedly an inexcusable design flaw, it is still the responsibility of a car's owner/driver to make sure that there is actually oil in the engine.

I wish people would stop the soulful window motor melodrama.


Amen to that brother :bow:!

I agree, the power window :blahblah: gets tiresome.

Hell, I had to replace 2 window motors on my 92 Z28 within a month of each other....I think I'll go to thirdgen.org and :cry: about it now. :rolleyes:

When I took my 95 Z28 in for its first service the technicians discovered a leaking rear main seal, and some of the front suspension parts were missing fasteners. They fixed it under warranty.

Over the life of the car, I've replaced three window motors, had the leaking rear diff serviced three times, but other than that only regular service like brakes, tires and a battery. Now my stock Delco/Bose stereo deck has died.

Considering I've owned the car for almost thirteen years, should I count myself as lucky? The only vehicle I've owned that has been more dependable is my '02 Tahoe. But then if had modified them, I guess I wouldn't have had such good luck with my Chevies. ;)

Yes -- a 12 bolt should have been standard -- and we should have had larger brakes -- and many other parts should have been more "heavy duty" -- there's a problem with that -- and it's called "weight" --(wanna get peopel hysterical once again on this site? Bring up 'weight' and sit back and watch the fur fly......) ............ Adding a heavier axle and brakes and such would have negatively affected CAFE not only for the F car but the entire GM portfolio. The number of axle failures are very low -- below industry average, as a matter of fact -- and that's WITH the knowledge that most axle failures are due to drag racing or 'stupidity" ( by 'stupidity" I mean "Hey everyone - watch me ruin a perfectly good set of Goodyears!!!!" -- as I unfortunately witnessed all too often........)


This statement worries me. What kind of "shoulda's" might there be for the next generation? With CAFE becoming more and more strict GM is likely in the same boat now as it was back when the decision was made to install the 10 bolt. Also in regards to drag racing, what do you expect customer's to do with these cars? :)


You can ask FBF anything you want. But since this is a public forum, I'll add my comment about the idea. He's not your personal 800-CHEVY-ONE contact for warranty issues. I've had several 4gen fbodies, including two with LS1's I bought new. I never had a piston slap or power window issue with my LS1 Firebirds. (I also never just sat around roasting my tires either - although I did take them to our local dragstrip a few times). I replaced a window motor myself on a used LT1 Formula I had previously. It's really not a big deal, if you are a little handy with tools - and the part was $20 on eBay. I wish people would stop the soulful window motor melodrama.



I don't think those an unreasonable questions. You may have been one of the lucky ones just as he may have been one of the unlucky. I think the bigger point is that it shouldn't be "reasonable" to spend $22k-$32k in mid 90's dollars and have as many issues as this car did. Now I know that all cars have issues (especially once you get into higher mileage...this is a no-brainer) but it appears that this car is a little above average in those regards. Just a bit too aggressive in my opinion.;)

This statement worries me. What kind of "shoulda's" might there be for the next generation? With CAFE becoming more and more strict GM is likely in the same boat now as it was back when the decision was made to install the 10 bolt. Also in regards to drag racing, what do you expect customer's to do with these cars? :)

I don't think those an unreasonable questions. You may have been one of the lucky ones just as he may have been one of the unlucky. I think the bigger point is that it shouldn't be "reasonable" to spend $22k-$32k in mid 90's dollars and have as many issues as this car did. Now I know that all cars have issues (especially once you get into higher mileage...this is a no-brainer) but it appears that this car is a little above average in those regards. Just a bit too aggressive in my opinion.;)

Use it as a replacement for your Honda Civic to get groceries since it is one of only 2 cars out that has t-tops, the panty dropping feature. ;)

This statement worries me. What kind of "shoulda's" might there be for the next generation? With CAFE becoming more and more strict GM is likely in the same boat now as it was back when the decision was made to install the 10 bolt. Also in regards to drag racing, what do you expect customer's to do with these cars? :)
They will likely drive them hard, like the 4gens were. They will also likely blame their problems on GM, like before as well :rolleyes:
I don't think those an unreasonable questions. You may have been one of the lucky ones just as he may have been one of the unlucky. I think the bigger point is that it shouldn't be "reasonable" to spend $22k-$32k in mid 90's dollars and have as many issues as this car did. Now I know that all cars have issues (especially once you get into higher mileage...this is a no-brainer) but it appears that this car is a little above average in those regards. Just a bit too aggressive in my opinion.;)
Eh - maybe too aggressive. I just reacted when I saw what seems to be an attempt to take one person to task for issues/history that have been way outside his control. I enjoy the insights and inspirations that FBF provides us all... and I'd be mighty sad to see him get exasperated and just walk away, shaking his head....

Incidentally. I also bought a 2002 Trans Am new. While I didn't put a lot of miles on it before trading it in on my 05 GTO, it truly was perfect. The only time the dealer touched it was on the day of delivery, when they rubbed out a fender paint scratch. So that's two 'statistical outlyers' I guess :)

99SilverSS

Thanks for the input, I know its my opinion. BTW public opinion matters and GM must improve its public perception. I also feel GM is making better cars, but it takes a lot of rights to sway the masses. However, the point of this thread is your "opinion" on Camaro development time. I simply state that the wait between 1993 and 2010 is too long. You can argue till the cows come home about your world and mine, but waiting 17 years for a new generation Camaro is a long time, period.

I don't really know what you mean by a long time between 1993 and 2010. Yes those are the model years that the 4th and 5th Gen Camaro started, and will start for production. But I don't see how it's a 17 year wait? I just don’t see how you can use the production run of the 4th Gen as part of the wait for the 5th Gen that by 2002 didn’t look very promising. It’s almost like you expected the 5th Gen to return? I think that was far from a certainty from 1997 on.

I would say the wait is only the hiatus time, 7 years from last production year and beginning of 5th gen in 2009.

Dear Mr. Malice.

A little history lesson first......

1) The name Camaro means 'Friend, pal, or Comrade....."


<<<>>>


2) I will agree that the power window motors were very problematic.....

<<>>

3) As to your charges that the transmissions were ...." Garbage "
<<>>

4) You may be interested to know that we repurchased several dozen Fcars with LS1engines that exhibited more noise than normal -- and ran some of them at the rev limiter for 24 hours or more -- and took others north of 250K miles -- none failed. I'd say that this is a great testament to a great engine family.
<<>>




1) Didnt know that - can't believe I didn't. Very interesting. Thanks.

2) Yes, my drivers' window finally failed after it was SEVEN years old in my 2K. But I dont care. I read up about it on here, and know its a simple parts swap and/or rewiring job to bring it back to life. No biggie. Used cars=small problems. This is as small as they come. No big whoop.

3) Auto or manual? I think the auto in mine shifts as intelligently and predictably as any other I've driven. It still produces 2nd gear barks at-will. You can "throttle-shift" this one very easily, once your in tune to it - and the shifts are always crisp and smooth. NOT garbage. (I actually enjoy the "torque dump" into gear it produces)

4) :D This one makes me laugh. Alot. My LS1 has over 50K miles on it, and sounds like a diesel when I first start it up. No kidding. The lifter/rocker noise is unbelievable. But once I warm it up, the noise disappears, and the LS1 produces as much power and torque as the day I bought it, and has never had a single hiccup or computer code thrown. Those engines are/were some serious winners! Kudos. I dont bother the dealer with the noise, as it's not been a problem.....YET --- and, YES I do "stretch it's legs" to make sure its still solid, when safe. It IS. ;)

Some guys just don't remember the fact that older cars presented so many "quirks," and that most guys just modded/replaced many parts on them anyway to suit their tastes. I dont have a problem with this.

Im from that old school lineage. I could care less if my sweetheart has a few pimples on her arse --- there's always clearasil. :cool:

You guys need to lighten up. :cry:

Back to the original post. You can count me in as one of the dissapointed ones that it's taking so long for this car to hit the streets. Before everyone jumps on me I will be getting a new Camaro when they come out and I am very excited about the car coming out. I woudn't have been able to get one if they came out any earlier. That doesn't mean I'm not a little dissapointed with the gestation time of this car. Thats also not to say that I don't understand why its taking so long. I think everyone would agree that they would have preferred this car come out in 2003. That would have been amazing. It is also not realistic. That being said I think it is a bit misleading to say that there were no plans to produce the 5th gen when the concept was shown in 2006. There was no plan in place to produce the 5th gen but the concept was definately built with production in mind so there had to be some initial planning if the reaction was good. If thats not the case then GM really does have some problems and maybe this is indicative of what some people are complaining about.

I think GM is heading in the right direction and I am excited about many of the products that are coming out right now and particularly with the direction GM is heading in terms of style and quality. I am however part of the group that is a little dissapointed that the 5th gen Camaro wasn't more like a 2007 MY as opposed to a 2010

Back to the original post. You can count me in as one of the dissapointed ones that it's taking so long for this car to hit the streets. Before everyone jumps on me I will be getting a new Camaro when they come out and I am very excited about the car coming out. I woudn't have been able to get one if they came out any earlier. That doesn't mean I'm not a little dissapointed with the gestation time of this car. Thats also not to say that I don't understand why its taking so long. I think everyone would agree that they would have preferred this car come out in 2003. That would have been amazing. It is also not realistic. That being said I think it is a bit misleading to say that there were no plans to produce the 5th gen when the concept was shown in 2006. There was no plan in place to produce the 5th gen but the concept was definately built with production in mind so there had to be some initial planning if the reaction was good. If thats not the case then GM really does have some problems and maybe this is indicative of what some people are complaining about.

I think GM is heading in the right direction and I am excited about many of the products that are coming out right now and particularly with the direction GM is heading in terms of style and quality. I am however part of the group that is a little dissapointed that the 5th gen Camaro wasn't more like a 2007 MY as opposed to a 2010
Count me out of that group. Several features would not have been available in a 2003 5gen. Examples include stability control, XM, AFM, A6 tranny, and so on. GM is using time to their advantage to make the new Camaro an even better value for the money, than it would have originally been. GM's quality has also been on a continuing upward trend this decade. That also bodes well for the new Camaro :cool:

Count me out of that group. Several features would not have been available in a 2003 5gen. Examples include stability control, XM, AFM, A6 tranny, and so on. GM is using time to their advantage to make the new Camaro an even better value for the money, than it would have originally been. GM's quality has also been on a continuing upward trend this decade. That also bodes well for the new Camaro :cool:

A lot of the technology wouldn't have been available in 2003 which is what would have been amazing about it and also what would be unrealistic about it.

A lot of the technology wouldn't have been available in 2003 which is what would have been amazing about it and also what would be unrealistic about it.
I agree about the unrealistic part. But there would have been nothing 'amazing' about missing out on all that cool new stuff. I'm fine with waiting for it. Every passing month allows me to save up for more options. By the time I can afford one, I hope to be able to get it pretty much fully loaded.

While it DOES seem like a long time to get the F-body back, at least GM is doing it. They have 'dumped' me and my market demographic twice- I had the LT1 powered Caprice, in '95, which was a wonderful passenger car that was deceptively fast. Killed off the V-8 powered RWD sedans in '96, and gave up a big chunk of the Municipal/Police market by doing so- so they could use that plant to build higher-profit SUVs, some of which they tried to sell as "pursuit" Z56 Tahoes- a capable truck, but a stretch-

Now forced into a 2 door couple, to still drive RWD V-8 power, outside of a truck, and then GM leaves me hanging in 2002 when they kill off the F-body. I will not ever choose to drive FWD, unless we are talking 80 HP economy cars- and I like the effortless torque of the V-8, as opposed to the high-strung nature of buzzy DOHC, turbo-charged 4's and 6's- not to mention the longevity and reliability-

So, I am happy that GM 'has seen the light' and is coming back into the mass enthusiast's market, instead of still insisting that I drive a FWD Monte or some such abberation- I am waiting to see the price point and engine selection of the new Camaro, with bated breath. Poor timing with fuel price spikes, and the tightening CAFE numbers- Ford never left the faithful, and Dodge beat GM back to the party, but we shall see if the wait is worth it- I hope so-

Count me out of that group. Several features would not have been available in a 2003 5gen. Examples include stability control, XM, AFM, A6 tranny, and so on. GM is using time to their advantage to make the new Camaro an even better value for the money, than it would have originally been.

I'm sorry, but this is flat-out silly.

If this is the case, then why not have a 7 year "hiatus" between every generation? :lol: I mean seriously, let's not build the Camaro until it has Mr. Fusion and can make 500 horsepower on garbage. That's a feature we'd all like. I'm willing to wait for that new 2030 Camaro, how 'bout you?

I can quite imagine Mustang guys wishing the SN95 cars did not exist, because XM radio was not available yet in 1994. :thumb:

Well I thought I knew everything about Fbodies and I learned something. About 2 years ago I was looking to trade my 99 Trans Am in for a 2000 WS6 Convertible. I cranked it up and that engine was knocking badly. It went away after it warmed up. It ran great and was really strong. I took it to a dealer to check it out and as the engine was warm it wouldn't knock for them. But he told me the LS1 was notoriously a noisy engine. As my 99 is very quite and doesn't make any odd sounds I wasn't aware. I didn't buy the convertible as I was affraid the knock might be something serious. But after reading the other accounts and what FBF said about running some wide open for 24 hours with no problems, I wish I had bought it after all. Oh well, I'll have my 2010 Camaro convertible and be VERY happy.
Lesson learned.

I'm sorry, but this is flat-out silly.

If this is the case, then why not have a 7 year "hiatus" between every generation? :lol: I mean seriously, let's not build the Camaro until it has Mr. Fusion and can make 500 horsepower on garbage. That's a feature we'd all like. I'm willing to wait for that new 2030 Camaro, how 'bout you?

I can quite imagine Mustang guys wishing the SN95 cars did not exist, because XM radio was not available yet in 1994. :thumb:

Thats actually a really good point.

I have just a little story about my "diesel LS1" in the 2002 Z28. I worked at Borg-Warner (yes that one) at the time. There are lots of car loving engineers and designers there. So getting a new Z28 caused several people to come out and look at it. I told one of them I had a piston slap and him being a long time Buick racer and engine builder in his 442 club came out to look and listen to my engine. I started the LS1 up in a cold December MI day and he listened for a few minutes at each front wheel well and then from the engine bay as the car idled up to temp. His words were that baby is loose run her hard! He stated that for a race engine that’s the kind of loose engine he always built. I said it’s a street engine and only used in anger in certain times and places and he said not to worry about reliability but be glad the engine is loose as it will make more power than a tight engine.

Well lets just say that in great conditions with only a lid, CAI, K&N and cutout the car ran 12.8’s at 109 on street tires. So give me the ‘diesel LS1” any day because they run hard and for me that was the whole point of having a V8 Camaro.

I'm sorry, but this is flat-out silly.

If this is the case, then why not have a 7 year "hiatus" between every generation? :lol: I mean seriously, let's not build the Camaro until it has Mr. Fusion and can make 500 horsepower on garbage. That's a feature we'd all like. I'm willing to wait for that new 2030 Camaro, how 'bout you?

I can quite imagine Mustang guys wishing the SN95 cars did not exist, because XM radio was not available yet in 1994. :thumb:
I wasn't trying to claim they should 'store up' enhancements and sit out the market with an intentional hiatus. But at the same time... there really hasn't been much of a hiatus, especially when one considers the gap that has been filled by the LSx GTO in the meantime. I had a 2005 GTO and whle it was a GREAT car... it was missing some of the features I mentioned. So I'm glad to see them coming soon in the Camaro.

there really hasn't been much of a hiatus.

:think:

I dunno, to me....Chevrolet just wasn't Chevrolet without the Camaro. Every day that went by without that car in the showroom seemed like a large void.

GTO was a very nice car, but it wasn't a Camaro.

:think:

I dunno, to me....Chevrolet just wasn't Chevrolet without the Camaro. Every day that went by without that car in the showroom seemed like a large void.

GTO was a very nice car, but it wasn't a Camaro.
Unless you're a GTO fan, you don't have much of a clue what a REAL hiatus is like ;)

:think:

I dunno, to me....Chevrolet just wasn't Chevrolet without the Camaro. Every day that went by without that car in the showroom seemed like a large void.

GTO was a very nice car, but it wasn't a Camaro.

you went into a dealership showroom every day?? do you work at a chevy dealership? :)

Unless you're a GTO fan, you don't have much of a clue what a REAL hiatus is like ;)

GTO? Try Challenger!
Those people have the biggest set. They laugh at GM taking 6 months longer to make a Camaro then it did a Challenger, they need to look at the last time Chrysler made an affordable RWD v8 powerd 2 door performance ANYTHING

They laugh at GM taking 6 months longer to make a Camaro then it did a Challenger

And they selectively forget that the Challenger is based off existing architecture while the Camaro is on an all-new platform.

They sure as hell won't forget what a pig they are driving when they get their asses handed to them by a Camaro at every stoplight.

Sorry, had to throw a jab in there. ;)

And they selectively forget that the Challenger is based off existing architecture while the Camaro is on an all-new platform.

They sure as hell won't forget what a pig they are driving when they get their asses handed to them by a Camaro at every stoplight.

Sorry, had to throw a jab in there. ;)

Well Jason, they did lighten up when they removed the 8 wheels, the tank treads, and the turret with the 120mm smooth bore barrel off the top, so it is a lot lighter then the platform is based off of....


http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9705/Montgomery-9705.intro.lg.gif

GTO? Try Challenger!
Those people have the biggest set. They laugh at GM taking 6 months longer to make a Camaro then it did a Challenger, they need to look at the last time Chrysler made an affordable RWD v8 powerd 2 door performance ANYTHING

I haven't heard any Mopar fans laughing at GM over the Camaro delay.

And as far as the whole "Challenger is a heavy pig" line of argument goes, let's wait and find out what these cars (both of 'em) actually weigh before we go too far down that line of discussion, eh?

I haven't heard any Mopar fans laughing at GM over the Camaro delay.

And as far as the whole "Challenger is a heavy pig" line of argument goes, let's wait and find out what these cars (both of 'em) actually weigh before we go too far down that line of discussion, eh?


I agree. I have a feeling thay Camaro and Challenger will be very close in weight....


BTW Al, That's an M1 tank not a Challenger tank.

I agree. I have a feeling thay Camaro and Challenger will be very close in weight....

Until the numbers are released for both cars, we wont know for sure, but I think Camaro will come in a few hundred pounds lighter than Challenger.

Until the numbers are released for both cars, we wont know for sure, but I think Camaro will come in a few hundred pounds lighter than Challenger.


Agreed. And I hope Camaro does come in several hundred pounds less than Challenger. But there are lots of numbers flying around for Camaro - most of them very scary.

Agreed. And I hope Camaro does come in several hundred pounds less than Challenger. But there are lots of numbers flying around for Camaro - most of them very scary.


Possibly. A Commodore SSV manual weighs 3,950 lbs, but should be longer than the camaro, has two more doors complete with internals/panels, etc.. A 3,600-3,700 lbs camaro would be great (and I think possible), but if she weighs in at 4K, I'll still get one (but I doubt it will be that heavy)

http://www.holden.com.au/pdf/chooseavehicle/techdata/VE_Weights.pdf

The new G8 sedan weighs in at 3,885 lbs while the G8GT weighs in at 3,995lbs :(

but if she weighs in at 4K, I'll still get one



Would you? What if it's more than that........?

Would you? What if it's more than that........?

It won't weigh more than that. Now way it could weigh more than a longer 4 door version. :D

*IF* it came in at over 4K, I'd have to take a serious look at the power/fuel econ numbers, but most likely still get it :D It's just such a damn good looking car :metal:

im guessin the maro will be in the 3700-3800 range.

im guessin the maro will be in the 3700-3800 range.

Yeah, but it'll weigh way more after you add the Ca- to it.

Yeah, but it'll weigh way more after you add the Ca- to it.

Are you joking? You really think it will be that heavy? I think the challeneger will be in that range.................

What's "Ca-" ???

What's "Ca-" ???

Because he called it a "maro", he left off the "Ca-" (pet peeve of mine too....what is a "maro"?) :D

I'm worried about the 5th Gen's weight, but I am not about to believe its curb weight will start with a '4'. That would make absolutely no sense, since even a Zeta Commodore sedan checks in under that weight.

Well Jason, they did lighten up when they removed the 8 wheels, the tank treads, and the turret with the 120mm smooth bore barrel off the top, so it is a lot lighter then the platform is based off of....


http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9705/Montgomery-9705.intro.lg.gif
I would have used this tank:
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/armychallenger2b.jpg

I think you're exaggerating quite a bit for effect. The Forum can only be searched back to 2002, but even then Scott was telling folks to "have faith (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45516&postcount=26)" (maybe even "keep the faith" at that time) when referencing Camaro. Surely that was meant, at a minimum, to not lose hope?

I would suggest that we all had a pretty good idea the car was coming back WAAAAYYYY before 2005 - we simply didn't know when, and most didn't expect it to be 2009 as a 2010 model.

Bob

Actually, she's dead on correct. Things didnt start ramping up in earnest until late 2005. I remember Scott had to do a preso for Ed Peper that December.

Because he called it a "maro", he left off the "Ca-" (pet peeve of mine too....what is a "maro"?) :D

I'm worried about the 5th Gen's weight, but I am not about to believe its curb weight will start with a '4'. That would make absolutely no sense, since even a Zeta Commodore sedan checks in under that weight.

Let's hope.



I wonder what a Commodore would weigh once you added a supercharger, intercooler, big wheels and all the other paraphernalia that goes along with that? :think:

I was going to do a multi-quote but all of them boil down to the same thing... GM is slightly late to the show. They knew the Challenger was coming out and apparently did little to push their production schedule up to match its release. I'm sorry but the reality is that it HAS TO HAVE HURT some Camaro sales not to mention the "first kid on the block" status. Maybe it cost GM 500 sales, maybe 1000, maybe all 5000, who knows what the actual number is BUT sales are sales. The only redeeming factor is that the Challenger is overpriced about 5k IMO. If the Challenger had been in the 34-35k range in its initial offering, I for sure would have at least be taking a good hard look at it. Others who don't mind the initial release price tag of 40k are going to look and/or buy. I just hope GM doesn't make the same mistake with the Camaro that they made with the GTO and overprice it from the get go or there may be people flipping a coin between it and the Challenger...

Actually, she's dead on correct. Things didnt start ramping up in earnest until late 2005. I remember Scott had to do a preso for Ed Peper that December.

Ok. However, let me revisit what I was replying to:

There wasnt even a smuge of hope of the car coming back until 04...

Were not the "have faith" and "keep the faith" and "hiatus" tags that Scott himself used not synonomous with having "hope"?

Regardless, I disagree with your assertion that she was "dead on correct". But I guess we can agree to disagree. I will continue to stand by my statement and the evidence (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45516&postcount=26) I presented (there certainly is more if you wish to go to the trouble to search) to back it up.

Bob

I was going to do a multi-quote but all of them boil down to the same thing... GM is slightly late to the show. They knew the Challenger was coming out and apparently did little to push their production schedule up to match its release.
:irk:

The ability to push a production schedule to match a competitor's release would be far easier if you had a production plant sitting empty and a production line ready to accept the architecture. It was far easier for Chrysler as the Challenger is based of an architecture already in production. GM had to find a plant, finish vehicles already scheduled for production, then retool the plant for a new architecture. That all takes time and money and cannot simply be done overnight to match the competition. Considering all the extra hoops GM had to jump through to get to where they are today, I'd say they're right where they need to be and slightly ahead of schedule. :D

Scott has always Have Faith that the Camaro name will be back since 00 But for us We saw no glimmer of hope even those who kept the faith. all we were getting was Have Faith & if you read you will see that I was one of those who was standing by Scott, tell you guys this, NOT because I believed in GM but I beleived in Scott.

Some of us knew the car had to be back out, We had our feelings about it. BUT NO public word was ever given that the car was to even come out in Detroit in 06 until late 05.

Scott saying Keep the faith was one way for us to know that they may be working on something BUT NOTHING Was EVER OFFICAL until late 05.

They could have killed the project before the car even hit the 06 Detroit AUTO show.

Work on GMX284 started in 2003.

Work on GMX284 started in 2003.

Close... little clay models in little studio's far from the prying eyes of the suits a new Camaro was conceived...

Regardless, I disagree with your assertion that she was "dead on correct". But I guess we can agree to disagree. I will continue to stand by my statement and the evidence (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45516&postcount=26) I presented (there certainly is more if you wish to go to the trouble to search) to back it up.

Bob

For all I know, your name isnt even Bob. I haven't seen any evidence. You better send some ID via registered mail before we can continue this conversation.

:)

Back in 2002, 2003... Scott was made fun of by coworkers for still wearing his Camaro ties and shirts to work.

Scott never gave up the faith. Not with us, and more importantly, not at the RenCen.... but the facts are even after the coupe debued at NAIAS, it still was not a done deal... so if we're getting into your oh so important semantics... perhaps "a smuge of hope" isn't 100% accurate. It was definitely more a smidge than a smuge.

Kindly read what I wrote (and quoted) again. I never said nor implied that it was a "done deal" that many years ago. I never said nor implied that there was anything "official" back then. I simply said that there was "hope" (even quoted what I was responding to), most especially on this Forum (and posted an example of where this "hope" was).

There is a difference between "hope" and "done deal" or "official", don't you think? What does the word "hiatus" mean or imply? Why did Scott not use "hiatus" back then instead of "dead"? Maybe you didn't notice? Perhaps because - even back then - there was "hope"? Ya think? Ya think he expressed that "hope" here? Do you think others might have shared that "hope"? Even (or most especially) the two of you?

FYI...

hope
–noun 1. the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best.

hi·a·tus
–noun, 1. a break or interruption in the continuity of a work, series, action, etc.

I understand that you guys are now circling the wagons, so to speak (and I'm sure others will join), so I'll let it go.

Have a great evening. ;)

Bob (as far as you know)

I agree. I have a feeling thay Camaro and Challenger will be very close in weight....



Define "close"

Work on GMX284 started in 2003.

nope -- late 2001 or very early in 2002 -- cuz we were still building the 4th gen.......

That program started and stopped and started and stopped.........

At one point there was a clay done -- only to be scrapped when one particular Vice President caught wind of what was happening and "enlightened" the team to some 'facts'........


At one point we were looking at Corvette Frame rails without the center driveline -- married to a CTS rear bucket.........

I remember Jim Taylor talking in earnest that we COULD do it off of Sigma -- we'd simply call it 'sigma lite' -- and we could make money doing it. Not everyone agreed.

Someone suggested that we call it the 'Paragon' project -- I suggested "panther" - (hoping that if it DID leak at least a few people would get what the car was supposed to be....)

I still have a lot of notes from that program.

I think both KrazzyCowGirl and Bob have their points -- and perhaps are in violent agreement --

Yup -- I kept saying "have faith" -- but in reality, nothing was approved - and many projects at GM (and other manufacturers) never see the light of day.

I just kept thinking "well - it's GONNA happen -- the question is WHEN????"

Define "close"

Like I said, heard some very scary numbers. I hope they're wrong.

nope -- late 2001 or very early in 2002 -- cuz we were still building the 4th gen.......

That program started and stopped and started and stopped.........

At one point there was a clay done -- only to be scrapped when one particular Vice President caught wind of what was happening and "enlightened" the team to some 'facts'........


At one point we were looking at Corvette Frame rails without the center driveline -- married to a CTS rear bucket.........

I remember Jim Taylor talking in earnest that we COULD do it off of Sigma -- we'd simply call it 'sigma lite' -- and we could make money doing it. Not everyone agreed.

Someone suggested that we call it the 'Paragon' project -- I suggested "panther" - (hoping that if it DID leak at least a few people would get what the car was supposed to be....)

I still have a lot of notes from that program.

I think both KrazzyCowGirl and Bob have their points -- and perhaps are in violent agreement --

Yup -- I kept saying "have faith" -- but in reality, nothing was approved - and many projects at GM (and other manufacturers) never see the light of day.

I just kept thinking "well - it's GONNA happen -- the question is WHEN????"

Hey some of this stuff needs to be saved for the book! :D I think we all know the current work, its the begining that everyone won't be able to put down.

I do remember seeing the odd looking clays for a supposed car banished to history. If there are ever thanks to be paid for this car it's the grass roots work that was done and not always authorized.

....Yup -- I kept saying "have faith" -- but in reality, nothing was approved - and many projects at GM (and other manufacturers) never see the light of day.

Concur. And once again, I never mentioned nor implied that anything was approved, official, or a "done deal". Simply that even back then, there was hope that it would.

I just kept thinking "well - it's GONNA happen -- the question is WHEN????"

Sounds like hope to me.

I had absolutely zero information on any of this stuff, outside of what I read on the internet (no Winkie Club priviledges for me!), yet it was pretty clear that the chances were good there would be a Camaro again in the not-to-distant future. I never thought it would be a 2010 model, but I doubt anybody really thought it would take that long back in 2002.

Bob

:irk:

The ability to push a production schedule to match a competitor's release would be far easier if you had a production plant sitting empty and a production line ready to accept the architecture. It was far easier for Chrysler as the Challenger is based of an architecture already in production. GM had to find a plant, finish vehicles already scheduled for production, then retool the plant for a new architecture. That all takes time and money and cannot simply be done overnight to match the competition. Considering all the extra hoops GM had to jump through to get to where they are today, I'd say they're right where they need to be and slightly ahead of schedule. :D

All very true but the whole point of this argument is they were late. If I compete in an Ironman and finish in 12hrs it would be pretty good for me cause I haven't trained for it and I haven't prepared or practiced and I'm pretty out of shape. It would be a great accomplishment for me. But I wouldn't win. I couldn't really complain about the people who started preparing long before me who beat me (mustang) or the people who were already accomplished runners or cyclists or swimmers and had a head start because they were starting with a established fitness base (challenger although I don't think you could really call it fit they did start with an established platform) The fact is I would be late to the after party (Camaro).
I don't think it is GM's fault. But I do think it is a problem for GM. Even if you discount any possible lost sales for the Camaro you have to figure it shows the lag time GM faces when responding to new trends. It was as quick as they could respond but thats the problem.

I think they're doing a great job on the Camaro and its definately worth the wait. I love my wife and she is definately worth the wait, but that doesn't always mean that she's on time.:D