GM kills the Ultra V8 (Northstar replacement)
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GM kills the Ultra V8 (Northstar replacement)
Per Automotive News:
I have to say that I'd much prefer a forced-induction version of the DI 3.6L V6 if anyone "needs" more than 300 HP. Still, I can see a lot of Cadillac traditionalists being rubbed the wrong way by not having a V8 option.
DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.
The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.
In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.
GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.
Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.
The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.
Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”
He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.
The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.
The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.
The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.
In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.
GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.
Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.
The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.
Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”
He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.
The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.
The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.
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I wonder if this has anything to do with the DOHC version of the LSx motors as shown in the leaked UAW documents.
It does kinda make sense to consolidate 2 V8 platforms into 1. You could have a cheaper version that uses pushrods for the vast majority of the products. For the premium products where DOHC is perceived as better, the same base engine would be used with a DOHC "conversion".
It does kinda make sense to consolidate 2 V8 platforms into 1. You could have a cheaper version that uses pushrods for the vast majority of the products. For the premium products where DOHC is perceived as better, the same base engine would be used with a DOHC "conversion".
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A performance luxury brand needs V8 availabilty. Period. Acura has never offered it and it's held them back. It doesn't matter if the V6's are as powerful.
I still wonder though, if GM could get by offering the small-blocks in the Caddy's. Most likely, they'd get hammered in reviews, even if they are as good as the DOHC engines their competitors offer.
Really seems like a strange move when you consider all the money GM has dumped on Caddy in the past few years.
I still wonder though, if GM could get by offering the small-blocks in the Caddy's. Most likely, they'd get hammered in reviews, even if they are as good as the DOHC engines their competitors offer.
Really seems like a strange move when you consider all the money GM has dumped on Caddy in the past few years.
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moment when I heard this news...In addition to the Caddy traditionalists griping, the auto media would be all over Cadillac if it came to the party with a twin turbo DI V6 (for which the hardware already exists) to go against the 4.6L Lexus, 5.5L MB, the new whiz-bang twin turbo 4.4L from BMW, and so forth.
I admit I'd miss the V8, too. I still love the sounds the Northstar makes, despite the fact that the DI 3.6 is now basically its equal in terms of power output...
However, rlchv70 raises an interesting point about a DOHC small block variant. If it could be packaged well, that could be quite interesting (common block architecture could save a bundle in development and production costs, though I'm sure much has already been spent on UV8 development...).
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This is crazy talk if they ever expect to be taken seriously in the luxury game. Acura is already considered a wannabe in the luxury game because they have no V8 and because of that they can't really have a car that competes with any of the flagships on the market (LS, 7, S, etc). The highest they go is the Acura RL which competes with cars like the M35 and GS350 but not the M45 or GS460 or anything beyond that.
Sounds like Caddy may decide to stick with good lower end lux cars and leave the pricey stuff to others...
BTW this whole "V6 is far more popular than the V8 in Caddys" talk doesn't make much sense since the current Northstar is outdated. I'd expect V8 sales to be quite a bit higher than they are now if the Northstar was competitive with the current offerings from the other lux companies... in the 360 to 400hp range, and good reliability to go along with it. (northstar doesn't exactly have a great rep for durability past 100k)
Sounds like Caddy may decide to stick with good lower end lux cars and leave the pricey stuff to others...
BTW this whole "V6 is far more popular than the V8 in Caddys" talk doesn't make much sense since the current Northstar is outdated. I'd expect V8 sales to be quite a bit higher than they are now if the Northstar was competitive with the current offerings from the other lux companies... in the 360 to 400hp range, and good reliability to go along with it. (northstar doesn't exactly have a great rep for durability past 100k)
Last edited by Threxx; Jan 3, 2008 at 01:56 PM.
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I can't think of Cadillac not having a V8, it's like Chevy not having one. They are obviously going to get one from another place. With all the hype and good press that Cadillac's return to prominance has made they can't go to the peak w/o a V8. GM would be smart to go DOHC LSx and focus he engineering dollars on that as it would help all brands and lines using the LSx's.
I agree you can't play in the Luxo game w/o a V8 and IMO Caddy needs one more than the rest because they are trying to take sales away and BMW, M-B and Lexus won't give up buyers w/o a fight. It takes more than flashy designs and reliability to sway those buyers.
I agree you can't play in the Luxo game w/o a V8 and IMO Caddy needs one more than the rest because they are trying to take sales away and BMW, M-B and Lexus won't give up buyers w/o a fight. It takes more than flashy designs and reliability to sway those buyers.
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Also, with GM's financial peril, I doubt that they have a few hundred million to throw at what ultimately will be a low-volume engine.
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This is the plant where GM is going to build the new 4.5L Diesel. Was that where the rumored Ultra V8s was suppose to be built? It should be noted that Tom Read said that this certain project was dead, not putting a high profile V8 engine in Cadillacs is dead.
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This is crazy talk if they ever expect to be taken seriously in the luxury game. Acura is already considered a wannabe in the luxury game because they have no V8 and because of that they can't really have a car that competes with any of the flagships on the market (LS, 7, S, etc).
No V8 = not the "standard of the world." They're permanently ghetto-ized in the near-lux segment, no matter how much they try to shine it up.
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I just dont know what to say . Luxury vehicles are about excess for people who can afford them . BMW shares info and pics of their new twin turbo V8 in the same week Cadillac scraps the plans for its V8 . I hope the cancelation of the "ultra" V8 is due to plans of something else ...even if were to be used more GM corporate wide . Maybe the sucessor to current gen LS family is good enuff to not warrant a brand new Northstar (????)
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; Jan 3, 2008 at 03:39 PM.
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Just some things to consider.
1. The DI V6 puts out more horsepower than the Northstar V8 (303 vs 275).
2. The DI V6 is significantly lighter than the Northstar V8.
3. The DI V6 is the majority of STS sales, if I'm not mistaken.
4. The DI V6 gets better fuel economy than the Northstar (18/27 vs 15/24)
As for V8s, it seems the LS3 would be a cheaper and superior choice for Cadillac.
1. It's seemingly lighter.
2. It's compact.
3. It puts out over 150 more horsepower.
4. In the Corvette it gets 1 mpg better city and 2 highway, so in something like the STS, it should easily get at least the same mileage as the Northstar while making far more power.
Besides, seems mega-torque diesels will be top power in luxury cars around the start of next decade.
1. The DI V6 puts out more horsepower than the Northstar V8 (303 vs 275).
2. The DI V6 is significantly lighter than the Northstar V8.
3. The DI V6 is the majority of STS sales, if I'm not mistaken.
4. The DI V6 gets better fuel economy than the Northstar (18/27 vs 15/24)
As for V8s, it seems the LS3 would be a cheaper and superior choice for Cadillac.
1. It's seemingly lighter.
2. It's compact.
3. It puts out over 150 more horsepower.
4. In the Corvette it gets 1 mpg better city and 2 highway, so in something like the STS, it should easily get at least the same mileage as the Northstar while making far more power.
Besides, seems mega-torque diesels will be top power in luxury cars around the start of next decade.
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From: Mack and Bewick
I have no doubt they can smooth out an LSx enough to make it appropriate, plus I think hybrids and diesel are going to become a bigger piece of the luxury market soon.