L76 as 'base V8'

How many here think that the L76 (the motor that's in the G8) stands a chance at being used as the base V8 in the Camaro?

It was originally a truck engine, modified slightly w/ a few LS3 components, and then modded a little more to become G8 specific...it's got AFM, potential for VVT, and I'm sure it could be E85-ified easily.

L76 would definately make a good base engine for those who want a V8 but fear the insurance and fuel premiums that come with having the top end V8. Hope fully it is indeed
E85 compatible too.

Already had this fight, gunna get a bunch of people saying that everyone wants a 430hp V8, and the costs to go with it.

We don't have a "beating a dead horse" smiley so instead I'll use :bang: and then :rolleyes:.

I've got nothing at all against E85 or AFM.....in fact, I think they're both a good thing. I would think that eventually GM will have them both in an engine with LS3 power levels.

For the record I'm one of those who thinks it would be foolish NOT to have a 430ish HP LS3 as the "base" V8 just because it WOULDN'T (in my opinion) be appreciably more expensive than the L76. :)

I was thinking more along the lines of having a "fuel-friendly" (if you can call any V8 that), engine for the base trim 'Maro....just a though.

I wasn't trying to start an argument or beat any horses...just thought it'd make a good converstion, and I didn't see any other threads directly about this.......

I think a while back the expectation was that when the LS3 came out in the Corvette it would have AFM. That obviously didn't happen though. Not sure what "glitches" were involved or how far along the program is currently.

Maybe they'll have the bugs worked out in time for the Camaro :shrug:?

I still say there will not be a "base V8".

I still say there will not be a "base V8".
Which is why I quoted it :p

I still say there will not be a "base V8".

And that will be a big disappointment to me. I am one of the people who would like a V8 without having to get a SS or Z/28.

Lots of people will want that, but it doesnt look like its going to happen.
Enthusiast = V8 and a V8 = 400+hp now.
What less? Settle with the V6, its makes good power.
Still want an 8 cyl? Mustang or Challenger will be your ride.

It has NOTHING to do with cost of how to build it. If anything, the LS3 could be a SS trim engine, and GM could tag more gear with the SS, increaseing profits of an already increased base price over the L76 equiped "RS" Camaro.
If GM will make the same money on an L76 Camaro and an LS3 Camaro, being equally equiped, then it would only BENIFIT GM to sell the higher hp (read: higher content) V8 model at a higher price, to INCREASE profits!!
Its a WIN WIN!!
Enthuisats want a 430hp V8? WHAMO 32k gets you a base SS with a LS3 making 430hp!!
Want a V8, but dont want to pay the penalty, of both insurance and gas that comes with the LS3, and dont want to settle for a V6? L76 Camaro is YOUR car!
Either way, GM retains the sale!! IT WOULDNT COST GM A DIME!! NOT A SINGLE DIME!!
A simple recert of a lower hp engine, which will probably be done anyway for Zeta since the L76 seems like its going to be the base V8 in other Zeta sedans, the cost would be nothing to GM, zero.
You have a 360-370hp V8 Camaro for the SAME PRICE as a 305hp Camaro SEVEN YEARS BEFORE!! AND BETTER GAS MILAGE!! Such a no brainer.

When you really think about it...the LS3 will probably produce slightly less hp than it currently is in the 'vette. The L76 may produce slightly more, because the G8 is a pig.

But that's not my point...what Big Alz Z said. That's my point! plus....on a modification point of view...the L76 may be slightly more friendly to modifications, less power to deal with off the bat, and lower compression ratio for any potential boost.............

Either way, I'm getting a V8...so it really doesn't matter to me, but it'll be interesting to see what I end up with...

What would be great with the L76 is that it wouldnt be like a 305 in the past, it would be a performance engine!! A few clicks away, and you have a LS2! Its still a 6.0 V8, and there are plenty of moddable things for it.

You know, I did some digging...and the LS2 CR was 10.9:1

The L76, a derivative of the LS2, with a few LS3 parts, is pushing out 360hp right now...with a 10.4 CR....IF someone were to bump that back up to 10.9...I'm pretty sure it could outfly the LS3;)


I'm definitely getting carried away, and I'll admit it. But I'm stoked if we at least get the L76 in the V8 Mustang fighter.

We need to remember that almost 2/3rds of all Camaros sold will be V6s. With less than 1/3rd V8s, GM will look to minimize the number of "options" to save money and maximize profits... at least the bean counters will. Having three V8 versions (aside from convertible derivatives) wouldn't fit in that equation.

We need to remember that almost 2/3rds of all Camaros sold will be V6s.

That's what Ford thought, but then they got hit with huge V8 shortages because it was selling at something like 60/40. Now, I am not sure if things have gotten back down to the 70/30 level, but I think we can't hold ANY of our old assumptions as fact anymore.

We need to remember that almost 2/3rds of all Camaros sold will be V6s. With less than 1/3rd V8s, GM will look to minimize the number of "options" to save money and maximize profits... at least the bean counters will. Having three V8 versions (aside from convertible derivatives) wouldn't fit in that equation.

But there will be no money to really save, only money to gain.
The L76 will most likely be the standard V8 for Zeta sedans, since the LS3 will probably be the upper trim V8.
It would work the same for Camaro, just like it works for Challenger.
The engine is there, it will be already produced and designed for Zeta. It will be certified for the chassis. It would be a NO BRAINER!
It probably costs just as much to make a 3.6 DOHC as it would an L76. Its profit profit profit for GM.
How funny would it be that the "RS" V8 Camaro will be able to keep ahead of Mustang GT's, and thats without going to an LS3 or the top dog engine!!!
I would assume that Mustang will also offer multiple V8's, and the GT engine will be the base V8, while a Boss V8 making over 400hp is going to be available, on top of a GT500 replacement.

not to dampen the mood, 'cause I agree 100%, Big Alz Z:D, but honestly, I have maybe a 10% interest in beating anybody at races. eventually, I may want to forge and boost, and all that crap. but all I want is a rumbling weekend cruiser. the L76 would fit that bill perfectly. especially since it's lower CR would allow the mild use of non-premium fuel....maybe.

The ONLY thing I don't like about the L76 is that it's not made in one of GM's US-based plants...but I can get over that.;)

Already had this fight, gunna get a bunch of people saying that everyone wants a 430hp V8, and the costs to go with it.

Here we go again. What costs are you referring too? You mentioned all of the same tired crap about bigger brakes, blah bla blah bla blah, but your entire stance on the arguement is flawed. Here is an idea. The L76 and the LS3 should weigh rougly the same. The vehicle's weight and weight distributions are unchanged. If GM slaps a set of awesome brakes on an L76 car, but then decided to go with the LS3, those same brakes would still stop the car the same awesome way. Shocking. Maybe GM might have to go with different tires, or maybe even slightly wider, but so what? That ain't gonna hike the price up enormously. The wheels don't need a wider diameter; that is just for gaudy show. What kind of rear does Ford use in the GT500? What kind of rear does Ford use in the Mustang GT? Pretty similiar pieces. I would bet the Camaro rear will be very similiar. The IRS will be developed to handle the top dog's brute force, and very similiar iterations of it will trickle down. What else does the car need? The M12 T56 in the GTO holds up pretty well, as well as the units in the Vettes. I bet that it would find it's way into the Camaro regardless of which engine goes into it, simply to bring the cost down on the transmission. Driveshaft? Never been a problem on the 4th gens, even with aftermarket power levels. It is a none issue. What other hypothetical stuff would add significant amounts of weight?

As I stated earlier, I simply believe you would like the 5th gen model hierarchy to follow a 3rd gen's, believing for whatever reason it would work in this day and age. Read this, no one has argued they are for a base LS3 car that costs over $30. They have argued they are for a base LS3 car coming in at the Mustang GT's pricepoint, something I believe totally that GM could do, and apparently is in the direction of doing.

What would be great with the L76 is that it wouldnt be like a 305 in the past, it would be a performance engine!! A few clicks away, and you have a LS2! Its still a 6.0 V8, and there are plenty of moddable things for it.


In this day and age, especially with what average sedans are doing, it would be a lagging engine, carrying around a heavy car. Plus, the Mustang GT is rumored to be coming in at 350hp in the next few years. 12hp isn't enough to trump the Mustang by, especially if GM could easily do more. What you are suggesting is to artificially hold potential value to the customer back. NO ONE on here has ever successfully concluded that horsepower killed anything, or is even a deterrent to the masses, so you chicken little crap about no mid level v8 driving people off is simply that, chicken little crap. I have seen plenty of older women in 400hp Escalades, and they don't seem to be scared of them. Yeah, I know, the Escalade is heavier, but as it has been mentioned on this boards several times, people don't pay attention to weight, they pay attention to horsepower.


But there will be no money to really save, only money to gain.
The L76 will most likely be the standard V8 for Zeta sedans, since the LS3 will probably be the upper trim V8.
It would work the same for Camaro, just like it works for Challenger.
The engine is there, it will be already produced and designed for Zeta. It will be certified for the chassis. It would be a NO BRAINER!
It probably costs just as much to make a 3.6 DOHC as it would an L76. Its profit profit profit for GM.
How funny would it be that the "RS" V8 Camaro will be able to keep ahead of Mustang GT's, and thats without going to an LS3 or the top dog engine!!!
I would assume that Mustang will also offer multiple V8's, and the GT engine will be the base V8, while a Boss V8 making over 400hp is going to be available, on top of a GT500 replacement.

It wouldn't be very funny if the "RS" Camaro could keep up with the Mustang GT, but came in at the Mustang GT's pricepoint. The Camaro is a CAMARO, it is not a sedan. It doesn't need sedan power levels, it needs Camaro power levels. We still don't know the exact details of the Challenger's powertrain options, so comparing the two is difficult. Besides, why should GM just fall into line with Ford and Chrysler? Isn't that belief system how they got to where they are today?

In this day and age, especially with what average sedans are doing, it would be a lagging engine, carrying around a heavy car. Plus, the Mustang GT is rumored to be coming in at 350hp in the next few years. 12hp isn't enough to trump the Mustang by, especially if GM could easily do more. What you are suggesting is to artificially hold potential value to the customer back. NO ONE on here has ever successfully concluded that horsepower killed anything, or is even a deterrent to the masses, so you chicken little crap about no mid level v8 driving people off is simply that, chicken little crap. I have seen plenty of older women in 400hp Escalades, and they don't seem to be scared of them. Yeah, I know, the Escalade is heavier, but as it has been mentioned on this boards several times, people don't pay attention to weight, they pay attention to horsepower.

Mustang GT will still be behind the L76's power by 10-12.
Hold what value back? 430hp for under 30k? What other company is going to offer such an engine for under 30k? No one.
400hp in a 3-3.5 ton SUV is different then a 400hp in a sports car half the weight of the Esclade is different. And it needs it to move that power.
People might not want to get the higher costs of a LS3 that will require high grade gas, burn through it faster, and not to mention have higher insurance rates. But what if they still want a V8? What then? What do they do? Settle for the V6?
GM can do more, and could give us an LS3, but at a higher price point. Best example would be the Mustang GT and Mustang Mach 1 of the last gen. There was the affordable V8 sports car, made good power and was very popular, price was great. People wanted more power, so Ford gave us the Mach 1, which is basicly what the old Cobra was. Had more power, and a higher price point.


It wouldn't be very funny if the "RS" Camaro could keep up with the Mustang GT, but came in at the Mustang GT's pricepoint. The Camaro is a CAMARO, it is not a sedan. It doesn't need sedan power levels, it needs Camaro power levels. We still don't know the exact details of the Challenger's powertrain options, so comparing the two is difficult. Besides, why should GM just fall into line with Ford and Chrysler? Isn't that belief system how they got to where they are today?
If the Camaro RS could outpace the Mustang GT and come in at the same price point, its a win for Camaro. The Camaro SS with the LS3 could stay ahead of whatever 400+Mustang and Challenger, and the Z28 could fight the SRT8 and GT500.
People dont want sedan power? So I guess no one wants a 5.7 Hemi Challenger? No one will want that 6.1 Hemi SRT8 either I guess. Whats worse is that no one could want an LS2 powerd car since it was in the Trailblazer SS as well as the Saab 9-7x Aero.
Eh, what "system" that got them "where they are today"?
Mustang and Challenger will be thier two main targets. If they were to look at everyone else, you will see that other makers share engines across the board.

Mustang GT will still be behind the L76's power by 10-12.
Hold what value back? 430hp for under 30k? What other company is going to offer such an engine for under 30k? No one.
400hp in a 3-3.5 ton SUV is different then a 400hp in a sports car half the weight of the Esclade is different. And it needs it to move that power.
People might not want to get the higher costs of a LS3 that will require high grade gas, burn through it faster, and not to mention have higher insurance rates. But what if they still want a V8? What then? What do they do? Settle for the V6?
GM can do more, and could give us an LS3, but at a higher price point. Best example would be the Mustang GT and Mustang Mach 1 of the last gen. There was the affordable V8 sports car, made good power and was very popular, price was great. People wanted more power, so Ford gave us the Mach 1, which is basicly what the old Cobra was. Had more power, and a higher price point.

There you go again with that higher price point crap? Why? Why should GM do that? It will likely cost them more in the end to certify both the L76 and the LS3 for use in the Camaro, when they can just drop the LS3 in and be done with it. Here is a thought, why can't GM give us higher performance without the price penalty? About the Escalade. I know why the Escalade has that power, but to most people, power is power. Most people have no idea how much an Escalade weighs, they just know it is more than a car, because it is bigger.

The insurance arguement is a poor one. Higher HP cars don't automatically mean more to insure. My Camaro costs less to insure then my Mustang did.



If the Camaro RS could outpace the Mustang GT and come in at the same price point, its a win for Camaro. The Camaro SS with the LS3 could stay ahead of whatever 400+Mustang and Challenger, and the Z28 could fight the SRT8 and GT500.
People dont want sedan power? So I guess no one wants a 5.7 Hemi Challenger? No one will want that 6.1 Hemi SRT8 either I guess. Whats worse is that no one could want an LS2 powerd car since it was in the Trailblazer SS as well as the Saab 9-7x Aero.
Eh, what "system" that got them "where they are today"?
Mustang and Challenger will be thier two main targets. If they were to look at everyone else, you will see that other makers share engines across the board.

I don't recall ever stating that people don't want sedan power. Don't know why you are trying to put words in my mouth. I stated that the Camaro is not, in fact, a sedan. It is a performance muscle/sports car. It would pretty stupid to have a sedan with similiar power at a similiar price point sitting next to it in the showroom. The "system" I was referring to was just trying to match the competition at their level. Take the Camaro above the competition on every level, be it performance, style, handling, fit and finish, material quality, and reliability.

Why is keeping pace with the Mustang GT adequate enough? The RS is supposed to come in at a Mustang GT pricepoint, and only run with it? Why? 12hp isn't exactly outpacing anything either.

I suppose what confuses me the most is why you continue to argue your point, when I know that you know from these boards that the powertrains are likely largely determined already.

There you go again with that higher price point crap? Why? Why should GM do that? It will likely cost them more in the end to certify both the L76 and the LS3 for use in the Camaro, when they can just drop the LS3 in and be done with it. Here is a thought, why can't GM give us higher performance without the price penalty? About the Escalade. I know why the Escalade has that power, but to most people, power is power. Most people have no idea how much an Escalade weighs, they just know it is more than a car, because it is bigger.
GM could, but I dont think that GM will give us a 430hp car for under 30k. Had this convo with you already. 29k would be my best bet if at all.

The insurance arguement is a poor one. Higher HP cars don't automatically mean more to insure. My Camaro costs less to insure then my Mustang did.

High hp cars have higher insurance rates overall. 430hp in the hands of anyone will jack up the rates, not to mention the cost of fueling the car.


I don't recall ever stating that people don't want sedan power. Don't know why you are trying to put words in my mouth. I stated that the Camaro is not, in fact, a sedan. It is a performance muscle/sports car. It would pretty stupid to have a sedan with similiar power at a similiar price point sitting next to it in the showroom. The "system" I was referring to was just trying to match the competition at their level. Take the Camaro above the competition on every level, be it performance, style, handling, fit and finish, material quality, and reliability.

You didnt say they didnt want it, but you said that Camaro shouldnt get "sedan" power yet it has in the past. Trying to keep ahead of the competition is perfect and is what everyone does.

Im not going to talk this point over and over. It would cost GM zero to do, and if they arent going to do it, so be it. 430hp for the same price as a GT, I cant wait for it. I hope I get mine before they end Camaro for the 2nd time.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the L76 was being shipped over from Australia like the rest of the G8 sedan. To speculate beyond that... If it is the case that the L76 is being shipped over from down under, then there's a good chance that the tooling for producing the L76 isn't available in the US or Canada currently. And, if that is the case, then it would cost GM money to either start making the engine in the US/Canada or it would cost money to ship the engines from Australia. It seems to me like there's a very good chance that the L76 would be as expensive or possibly more so than the current US/Canada produced V8s that are available. Removing the Aussie V8's from the lineup limits you to an LS2, 3, or 4 and the LS2 is reportedly going away leaving the already mentioned LS3 (I think you can rule out the LS4 since it's built for transverse mount). So either the LS3 is the lower output V8 or there is some other V8 coming that is cheaper and that we haven't heard about.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a lower budget V8, but I doubt the L76 would be it unless they are already making them on this side of the pond.

If the only way to get a V8 is to spend $29k and up, I'm out. Completely out. When you can get a Mustang GT with a V8 for almost $4k less, its like the 4th gen versus Mustang all over again...the cheaper V8 wil sell in droves.

I don't care if it will make 430hp. But I do want the sound and feel of a V8...no 300hp V6 will do. I'm already EXTREMELY dissapointed that GM isn't bothering with t-tops. Now, if the V8 ends up costing $30k or more? Screw it...I won't buy a Mustang either, but I don't consider $30k to be cheap performance, and that's what this car is all about.

Its too bad, because seeing the concept debut live was one of the greatest things I've ever experienced. But no t-tops and this ridiculous 300hp "mid-level" V6 idea, combined with having to spend $30k at least we're estimating to get a V8? L76 would have been the answer to my prayers...oh well...

If the only way to get a V8 is to spend $29k and up, I'm out. Completely out. When you can get a Mustang GT with a V8 for almost $4k less, its like the 4th gen versus Mustang all over again...the cheaper V8 wil sell in droves.

Fbodfather has posted several times over the years the 5th gen will be competetively priced vs Mustang.

4th gens were priced competetively vs Mustang. A base 2002 Z28 or Formula could have been in the low 20s. It wasnt price point that pushed more buyers to Mustang than 4th gen.

I dont see how they can have the G8 with the L76 start at 29k, and we expect an LS3 powerd Camaro to slide below that price, start at the price of the G6 V6.
L76 is American made. The L98 is what the Aussies get, and I dont belive they make the V8, its shipped to them from Canada or Mexico.

Is it made here? 'cause on the spec sheet, it said it's made in Silao. Where is that? Maybe I just don't know my cities...

AS for the LS3 for L76 price...I can see it. After all, it's pretty much the exact same engine, just designed differently to produce less power.

I hope I get mine before they end Camaro for the 2nd time.

:rolleyes:

If the only way to get a V8 is to spend $29k and up, I'm out. Completely out. When you can get a Mustang GT with a V8 for almost $4k less, its like the 4th gen versus Mustang all over again...the cheaper V8 wil sell in droves.


A 2010 Camaro for 29k would actually cost about the same as a comparably equipped 4th gen car when inflation is factored in. And consider the amount of resources being devoted to this car as opposed to the 4th gen which languished on the vine for years.

And consider the amount of resources being devoted to this car as opposed to the 4th gen which languished on the vine for years.

hadn't thought of that, until now;)

The heads of GM actually want this car....

L76 is American made. The L98 is what the Aussies get, and I dont belive they make the V8, its shipped to them from Canada or Mexico.

Everything I've read says that Holden has the L76 as well as the L98 (although the L76 has different specs than the one in the G8, giving different HP/torque output and dropping the AFM for Australia).

I'll admit I overlooked the truck version of the L76 when looking into this earlier, so yes there is a US version of the L76 but it's only used in trucks/SUVs. The version in the G8 however does use some components that are specific to Holden and are not used in the truck versions of the engine. So again, it looks to me like there would have to be some sort of changing in supply lines and assembly in order to get the G8 version of the engine into the Camaro. It's not impossible, but it does actually have some cost associated with making it happen unless you want to just drop the truck version straight into the Camaro (it wouldn't bother me any, but I'm sure someone would complain about a truck motor in a car...LOL).

For me personally, I'll buy as much power as I can afford when the car comes out. If it ends up being a V6 that outruns a Mustang GT, gets better gas mileage, and is likely cheaper, then so be it. I'd prefer the V8 but it's not a deal breaker. However, for the sake of this discussion I do know that it is a deal breaker for a lot of people so it would be nice to see the Camaro with a V8 that is at or below the Mustang GT price point. As to whether that engine needs to be an L76 variant or an LS3 variant, I don't know. Which ever gets the car in the driver's hands the cheapest would be my choice. And I will agree that the power rating of such an engine option needs to be low enough that the Camaro insurance quote is equivalent to a Mustang GT since many people do get insurance quotes before buying and add that to the cost of the car.

As far as Camaro pricing versus the G8, it's not a truly fair comparison since the G8 is shipped over from Australia while the Camaro is built in North America. Add to it that the G8 "should" have more in the way of price increasing content in the car since it's up-market from the Camaro and I could easily see the Camaro coming in several thousand less than the G8 for the equivalent powertrain.

First of all, this is a very good thread. Too many of the 5th Gen threads seem to go bad after a few posts. :(

One thing to consider is that the G8 is schedule to be produced in North America after the first year. So the thought that the Camaro would use the same engine is somewhat sound.

Like a previous poster said, GM is anxious to produce this car, sort of a "halo" product for the Chevy division. Chevy doesn't have the Solstice like Pontiac and needs an affordable RWD performance car for it's image. They want to keep the price as low as possible and yet keep it above it's competitors. I don't think GM really cares what engine "name" it puts in the Camaro, so long as it is cheap and out performs the Mustang and upcoming Challenger. If the L76 does the job, and does it cheaply, it will probably be put in the Camaro.

Correct, the L76 will have to be part of the Zeta collection anyway. There will have to be a V8 for the Zeta sedans. The LS3 cannot and will not be the ONLY V8 available for G8 and Impala. There will need to be another lower output V8 engine that will be under 400hp and compete with the 5.7 Hemi and Ford's replacement.

Let's hope, though...that by then...they 'alter' it to produce a little more power, huh?;) Something near 380? just thinking aloud:D

Lots of people will want that, but it doesnt look like its going to happen.
Enthusiast = V8 and a V8 = 400+hp now.
What less? Settle with the V6, its makes good power.
Still want an 8 cyl? Mustang or Challenger will be your ride.

It has NOTHING to do with cost of how to build it. If anything, the LS3 could be a SS trim engine, and GM could tag more gear with the SS, increaseing profits of an already increased base price over the L76 equiped "RS" Camaro.
If GM will make the same money on an L76 Camaro and an LS3 Camaro, being equally equiped, then it would only BENIFIT GM to sell the higher hp (read: higher content) V8 model at a higher price, to INCREASE profits!!
Its a WIN WIN!!
Enthuisats want a 430hp V8? WHAMO 32k gets you a base SS with a LS3 making 430hp!!
Want a V8, but dont want to pay the penalty, of both insurance and gas that comes with the LS3, and dont want to settle for a V6? L76 Camaro is YOUR car!
Either way, GM retains the sale!! IT WOULDNT COST GM A DIME!! NOT A SINGLE DIME!!
A simple recert of a lower hp engine, which will probably be done anyway for Zeta since the L76 seems like its going to be the base V8 in other Zeta sedans, the cost would be nothing to GM, zero.
You have a 360-370hp V8 Camaro for the SAME PRICE as a 305hp Camaro SEVEN YEARS BEFORE!! AND BETTER GAS MILAGE!! Such a no brainer.

Correct, the L76 will have to be part of the Zeta collection anyway. There will have to be a V8 for the Zeta sedans. The LS3 cannot and will not be the ONLY V8 available for G8 and Impala. There will need to be another lower output V8 engine that will be under 400hp and compete with the 5.7 Hemi and Ford's replacement.

doesnt make sense to me. why cant a 420hp motor compete with the 5.7? If profit is the same or close for the LS3 as it is for the L76 why not use the LS3 acrose the board? Give people the better LS3 for what a L76 would be marked up for? That to me is no brainer. Yeah they could slip in the L76 and screw over the LS3 buyers by jacking up the price but thats the kinda crap I wish GM would move away from. Give us the best car for the best price.

BTW RS is an appearance trim package, maybe even available on the top model.
SS is not

LS3 is better then the L76 how? Power?
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.

LS3 is better then the L76 how? Power?
L76 could give us a E85, AFM, and VVT all in one package. Would help Camaro's green image as well.
420hp is overkill for a V8 Sedan for normal driving. Maybe in a performance trim, but an average V8 sedan. Gas prices and insurance rates again.

You lost me on sedan. yeah its in the G8 but thats going to production. but on Camaro...

honestly e85 sounds cool, but when was the last time you saw one at the pump. Id take it in an LS3, if not who cares. I still dont see much benefit of an L76 over an LS3 especially when you said the costs would be the same to GM. Bumping up the LS3 price would be stupid. Again, GM can deliver a better product at the same price, its time to pony up. The days of the Vette rule should be gone also. Or any other reason given for intentionally producing less than you can because of outdated internal pollitics.

The only thing that would make it worthwhile would be MPG or that the LS3 cost GM alot more to put in the car.

If u guys think your getting a base V8 Camaro @ 430 hp priced like a 300 hp Mustang Gt , you really need to step away from the crackpipe now . For those who want the Mustang GT priced Camaro , ya better start getting familiar with the 2nd level V6 model . Competively priced with the Mustang doesnt mean a Camaro competively matched to the GT has V8 engine .

If u guys think your getting a base V8 Camaro @ 430 hp priced like a 300 hp Mustang Gt , you really need to step away from the crackpipe now .

I hear what you are saying, but GM can't look at the competition as it is now, but rather what it will be like when the Camaro hits the streets.

The Challenger will hit early next year with the 6.1 and at least 425hp.

The Mustang is rumored to be up in the 350hp range by '09, but heck, the V6's are 58hp down to the Accord/Camry, so hp isn't a big issue for Ford.

Now, if the G8 with the 360hp L76 is $30k, we can at least see the L76 Camaro coming in below $30k quite easily. But, GM will probably want more than 10hp over the Mustang (if it hits 350hp by then), and won't want to be 125hp shy of the Challenger -- so the 360hp of the L76 might not be "enough" to keep up with the competition.

I think the point everyone is hoping for (hope being the operative word here) is, if the LS3 isn't that much more expensive to produce, that GM would drop in the 6.2L engine. -- even if they detuned it a little, and still charge around $30k for it. This would be preferable (for us) than trying to crank up the L76.

What fuels this hope even more is when you think about the "big dog" engine, 430hp may not be enough of a difference from the 360hp in the G8 (especially if they up the hp when it gets put in the Camaro). Now, do they try to tune the LS3 to 450hp+ (would even that be enough?) and use that for the "big dog" -- or do they go nuts, and use one of the 6.2L blown motors?

If they use a blown motor, that leaves room for the LS3 in the "base V8" car.

Yes, it is a long shot, but we are enthusiasts here, so hp greed is part of it :D.

In the end, though, I think GM will bump the L76 to 375hp or so and price it at $28.5k.
Still within $2k of the Mustang with at least a 25hp advantage, yet should be enough to get a G8-level quality interior. The 50hp+ deficit to the Challenger will be close enough given the $8k price difference. The Z28 will then eclipse the Challenger in hp (even the expected 6.4) and be around $40k.

Just my $0.02

Challenger will get teh 5.7 Hemi that will probably make 350-370hp, but will be much bigger and heavier then the Camaro and Mustang.
The LS3 wouldnt be top dog nor entry level V8.

Challenger will get teh 5.7 Hemi that will probably make 350-370hp, but will be much bigger and heavier then the Camaro and Mustang.
The LS3 wouldnt be top dog nor entry level V8.

They are auctioning off the first couple of Challengers -- and the specs say 6.1L, and the current 6.1 gets 425hp. (source (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Challenger-SRT8-Chrysler-s-all-new-2008-Dodge-Challenger-SRT8-No-2_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6198QQihZ016QQitemZ26 0164698329QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWVW))

And, yes it will be bigger (and heavier), but people will always say "but it has more hp".

But, if the 6.1L is near $40k, that would be Z28 territory.

So, GM just might have the L76 @ 375hp and bump the LS3 (or equivalent) to 450hp for the Z28.

Challenger will get teh 5.7 Hemi that will probably make 350-370hp, but will be much bigger and heavier then the Camaro and Mustang.
The LS3 wouldnt be top dog nor entry level V8.

umm depends on what you call entry level. If you mean entry level to be V6 then no it wont. If not I would not rule out that an LS3 or detuned LS3 will be if it is put in Camaro. I wouldnt be so sure alot of different V8s being in this car. Variants and detuned of one motor are my bet.

They are auctioning off the first couple of Challengers -- and the specs say 6.1L, and the current 6.1 gets 425hp. (source (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Challenger-SRT8-Chrysler-s-all-new-2008-Dodge-Challenger-SRT8-No-2_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6198QQihZ016QQitemZ26 0164698329QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWVW))

And, yes it will be bigger (and heavier), but people will always say "but it has more hp".

But, if the 6.1L is near $40k, that would be Z28 territory.

So, GM just might have the L76 @ 375hp and bump the LS3 (or equivalent) to 450hp for the Z28.

The first 5000-5500 (2008 model year) will only be 6.1 SRT8 models with automatics. The 2009 model year will get a mix of the 6.1 (SRT8) and 5.7 (R/T) and will only be produced in the 30,000 range. The challenger is going to be a collectors car and even though the 5.7 will be priced under 30k ($29,999.00) you wont see that without a dealer markup. DCX isnt interested in the market they just want some quick profit off the old LX frame before they transition over to the new LY.

SANTA MONICA, Calif. — Its official debut is still months away, but details are starting to leak out about the 2008 Dodge Challenger. According to Automotive News, Dodge plans to roll out the Challenger in two phases. A 5,000-car limited-run 2008 Challenger SRT will be unveiled at the 2008 Chicago Auto Show in February. The SRT will use the 6.1-liter Hemi mated to a five-speed automatic.

For the 2009 model year, Dodge will expand the Challenger lineup to include both 6.1- and 5.7-liter Hemi versions to be shown at the 2008 New York Auto Show in March. A six-speed manual will be added and possibly a dual-clutch transmission. Dodge will increase the Challenger's production output to 30,000-35,000 cars in 2009, says Automotive News.

What this means to you: Unless you're willing to pay up for the top-of-the-line SRT version, you won't be able to buy a Challenger until the 2009 model year.

SRC (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=87347)

DCX isnt interested in the market they just want some quick profit off the old LX frame before they transition over to the new LY.

Thanks for the info!
But, I thought the new Challenger was on the new LY platform. I know the concept was built on the LX, but I thought the Challenger was to be the first on the LY. Any confirmation of the platform?

Technically yes its the LY platform but its not called that .. its called the LC (custom) until the rest of the models are moved over to LY..

Really the LY is just the next progression of the LX with minor changes/improvements.

Back on topic, the 6.1 Challenger is the "top dawg", just the base LS3 can whip it because of weight(Challenger IS over 4000lbs). The 5.7 Challenger is the Mustang GT and the base Camaro V8 contender .. and its very under powered compared to the Mustang and even a L76 Camaro due to low HP (330-340 by 09/10) and the weight.

Mustang will be getting a boost to about 350ish, again the L76 or the LS3 could work against it.

Personally I see the L76 just because it give Chevy the ad edge on "we have the most standard HP" campaign and I really don't think an LS3 will come in under 30k (we can hope but I'm not holding my breath). Time will tell and we will all live with what they give us. As long as its a V8 and a 2 door with the conceptish styling, its sold for me, its just not in my driveway yet.

Personally I see the L76 just because it give Chevy the ad edge on "we have the most standard HP" campaign and I really don't think an LS3 will come in under 30k (we can hope but I'm not holding my breath). Time will tell and we will all live with what they give us. As long as its a V8 and a 2 door with the conceptish styling, its sold for me, its just not in my driveway yet.

I don't think there is much of a question of what they will give us anymore. There are more than a few people on this board that see the inner workings of GM, and for the last year (more likely longer) there have been powertrain discussions on the 5th gen. We have gotten more than enough hints from people that the base v8 will be in the 400hp-ish power range, and since the LS2 won't be around when the Camaro hits the showrooms, the LS3 is the likely canidate.

Nothing is set in stone obviously, but I think if GM had changed their plans, we might have heard about it by now. On the contrary, we have been told a few times that GM already has an idea of where they are going with powertrain. All of this L76 speculation is exactly like the speculation surrounding the 5.3 months ago, and it was made very clear that engine will not find it's way into the 5th gen. My money is on it being doubtful the L76 will either.

it was made very clear that engine will not find it's way into the 5th gen

I must have missed the posts making it clear then.. I have trolled here since about January (only recently joined, been over at camaro5 since march as well) and haven't seen any hints on it.. Point me to the posts and I will gladly concede your point that it won't be.

PS. and thats not sarcastic(written word sometimes sounds that way).. I truly want to believe we will get the LS3 for under 30k.

I must have missed the posts making it clear then.. I have trolled here since about January (only recently joined, been over at camaro5 since march as well) and haven't seen any hints on it.. Point me to the posts and I will gladly concede your point that it won't be.


The reference you quoted me on was regards to the 5.3. I think even Scott himself said that it wouldn't be happening (although I am not totally sure on that). Sorry if this sounds lazy, but it could very well have been a year ago, and I don't really feel like spending the next hour browsing over old internet posts.

No one said anything about the 5.3 making anyway into the Camaro.
I dont think that the 5.3 and 4.8 will make it over to the Gen V platform since its bore is too small for the new L92 style cyl heads that require at least a 4 inch bore.

No one said anything about the 5.3 making anyway into the Camaro.
I dont think that the 5.3 and 4.8 will make it over to the Gen V platform since its bore is too small for the new L92 style cyl heads that require at least a 4 inch bore.

People were a year ago. Reread my thread. I didn't say people were still saying it now; it was only an example to be somewhat analogous to the L76.

Theoretically, though.
If the initially released V8 was the L76 for in the neighborhood of 27k...Would that stop you from buying it, if you knew the next step up in performance was going to be 35-40k? Theoretically

Already had this fight, gunna get a bunch of people saying that everyone wants a 430hp V8, and the costs to go with it.
what extra costs does a LS3 compared to a L76... i mean from the manufacturer's sice... i bet they cost the same

Theoretically, though.
If the initially released V8 was the L76 for in the neighborhood of 27k...Would that stop you from buying it, if you knew the next step up in performance was going to be 35-40k? Theoretically

Yes. That would definetly stop me from buying it. I am not interested in an L76 Camaro. I wouldn't be suprised if an L76 Camaro was only just as fast as a 4th gen, or even slower. I have had my 4th gen for a long time. If I buy another Camaro, it isn't going to be a slower one, regardless of how it looks.

what extra costs does a LS3 compared to a L76... i mean from the manufacturer's sice... i bet they cost the same

And I bet they don't.. Neither of us has an actual cost so its just your opinion against mine. :shrug:

Yes. That would definetly stop me from buying it. I am not interested in an L76 Camaro. I wouldn't be suprised if an L76 Camaro was only just as fast as a 4th gen, or even slower. I have had my 4th gen for a long time. If I buy another Camaro, it isn't going to be a slower one, regardless of how it looks.

I completely understand where you are coming from.. But it wouldnt stop me from buying it and I am the type of consumer that GM is after. I don't own a Camaro and never have(not to mention never would, to me they are all ugly except the 69's), I'm not a camaro die hard or even a GM die hard.

This non-camaro owning (or any mustang owners/ regular consumers) is not looking at comparing the 4th gen to the 5th because its 2 different styles, 2 different beasts, one is a grocery getter that can be upgraded to track trim, the other is a race car thats been tamed for the road. I would never own a 4th gen, don't care how fast it is because its basically a race car. The non-camaro die hard that wants a sporty V8 coupe isn't going to care between the L76 or the LS3.

There are 3 groups of consumers after this car. I myself am in the group with the Mustang GT drivers..

1. The group that wants a sweet looking stylish ride with economy that allows it to be a civilized street car, to hell with 1/4 mile times or auto-cross functionality. The V6 crowd. (the consumers that are buying the Mustang V6 now)

2. The group that wants a V8, thats not only stylish but is fun to drive, still civilzed for street travel but has a bite to it. The Base V8 crowd. (the consumers that are buying Mustang GT's now)

3. The group that wants this car to shred everything infront of it without regard to where its built or who its built by. The Top end V8 crowd. (the smallest of the bunch and those buying the Mustang GT500)

Either one of the L76 and the LS3 can fit in the 2nd group there.. its all going to come down to cost and engineering. Who knows what will end up there (except you focus group people and GM of course..). I sure don't have the facts about it.. But my educated guess (AKA Theory) is that higher HP = higher tolerance = higher cost. If someone could point out the costs somewhere I would alter my theory was based on those facts. So far nobody has any.

And I bet they don't.. Neither of us has an actual cost so its just your opinion against mine. :shrug:



I completely understand where you are coming from.. But it wouldnt stop me from buying it and I am the type of consumer that GM is after. I don't own a Camaro and never have(not to mention never would, to me they are all ugly except the 69's), I'm not a camaro die hard or even a GM die hard.

This non-camaro owning (or any mustang owners/ regular consumers) is not looking at comparing the 4th gen to the 5th because its 2 different styles, 2 different beasts, one is a grocery getter that can be upgraded to track trim, the other is a race car thats been tamed for the road. I would never own a 4th gen, don't care how fast it is because its basically a race car. The non-camaro die hard that wants a sporty V8 coupe isn't going to care between the L76 or the LS3.

There are 3 groups of consumers after this car. I myself am in the group with the Mustang GT drivers..

1. The group that wants a sweet looking stylish ride with economy that allows it to be a civilized street car, to hell with 1/4 mile times or auto-cross functionality. The V6 crowd. (the consumers that are buying the Mustang V6 now)

2. The group that wants a V8, thats not only stylish but is fun to drive, still civilzed for street travel but has a bite to it. The Base V8 crowd. (the consumers that are buying Mustang GT's now)

3. The group that wants this car to shred everything infront of it without regard to where its built or who its built by. The Top end V8 crowd. (the smallest of the bunch and those buying the Mustang GT500)

Either one of the L76 and the LS3 can fit in the 2nd group there.. its all going to come down to cost and engineering. Who knows what will end up there (except you focus group people and GM of course..). I sure don't have the facts about it.. But my educated guess (AKA Theory) is that higher HP = higher tolerance = higher cost. If someone could point out the costs somewhere I would alter my theory was based on those facts. So far nobody has any.

I agree with most of your post, except the pricing part. I don't know how much it costs to build each engine either, as I don't work at or with GM. I can't imagine there is much difference though, as the engines are extremely similiar. Your equation might make sense, if it was really that black and white. Nobody knows, unless they are with GM. I bolded part of your post because you stated exactly what I have been trying to point out to Al; that the average consumer isn't going to care if there is an L76 or an LS3 in there. It will not be the end of the world of the Camaro really gets the LS3 in base trim.

GM doesn't seem to want to pull any of the punches on this car though. It has been stated here that GM wants a breakthrough as far as interiors go. They also want to introduce this car with a new warranty that will be the best on the market, or so we have been told. Aftermarket support from GM will also be substantial on this car, as we have also been told on here. I somehow doubt GM is going to pull any punches with the base v8, given how much they are putting it all out with car. (Yes everything I have stated has been stated here at least once).

the average consumer isn't going to care if there is an L76 or an LS3 in there. It will not be the end of the world of the Camaro really gets the LS3 in base trim.

While I generally agree with you, if they put in the LS3 (or equivalent), they could say "it uses the Corvette engine" -- and people certainly would appreciate that, and that would make it more desirable.

They couldn't say that if they used the L76.

Also, if I am not mistaken, the GTO sales increased a bit once they started using the LS2. Not sure if the same thing would hold true for the Camaro or not though.

I am just not sure it is that much of a difference to enough people at the end of the day.

They also want to introduce this car with a new warranty that will be the best on the market, or so we have been told.

I hadn't heard that one before. Has there been any speculation on what the warranty could be?

They're planning on besting their 5yr/100,000mile powertrain / 3yr/36,000mile bumper to bumper?

I hadn't heard that one before. Has there been any speculation on what the warranty could be?

They're planning on besting their 5yr/100,000mile powertrain / 3yr/36,000mile bumper to bumper?
Lifetime powertrain / 10yr/100,000mile bumper to bumper? :shrug:

Lifetime powertrain / 10yr/100,000mile bumper to bumper? :shrug:
That would be freaking amazing...honestly...I'd cry.:p

GM's 5 year powertrain is pretty good already in my opinion, but considering that Hyundai/Kia have a 10 year and Chrysler has a lifetime powertrain warranty, I'd be a little surprised if GM didn't increase their's.

It would be good marketing if nothing else. Chrysler's lifetime and Hyundai/Kia's 10 year are only good for the original owner. GM could put the same 1st owner limitation and be able to say "GM has so much confidence in the quality of our vehicles that we'll cover the entire powertrain for the life of your new car" for bragging rights/advertising.

GM's cost to cover the extended warranty would probably be minimal. I may be completely wrong, but I think quite a few people who can afford to buy a new car will probably be looking to buy another within 5 years anyway. I'd also think those new car buyers who hold onto it past 10 years would be even more rare.

Hell, if CHRYSLER :barf: , with their ATROCIOUS (in my opinion :)) quality/reliability issues can do it, SURELY GM can SAFELY (financial wise) do the same.

Challenger will get teh 5.7 Hemi that will probably make 350-370hp, but will be much bigger and heavier then the Camaro and Mustang.
The LS3 wouldnt be top dog nor entry level V8.

I dont think the camaro is gonna be that much lighter. The current Mustang GT is about 3550 lbs and thats with a solid rear axle. From what I've read, the Challenger will be about 4100 lbs. I could see the the camaro falling somewhere in between that.