RWD Impala @ NAIAS?

What are the odds that GM will allow us to see the next gen impala in January?

And I'm not talking about the NASCAR COT Impala SS :D

I'm guessing it's another year away.

I wonder if the production Camaro will be at Detroit

I wonder if the production Camaro will be at Detroit

Negative, so says SS

Not likely the next Impala will be a NAIAS.

Equally doubtful we'll see a production Camaro since there's no production line, and won't be for, at the very, least another year.

That said, it doesn't mean that Chevrolet won't have anything we'd be very intrested in. :)

What are the odds that GM will allow us to see the next gen impala in January?

not a chance.

That said, it doesn't mean that Chevrolet won't have anything we'd be very intrested in. :)
Hmmm... would that be the "other" RWD product from "down under" that you've been pushing 'round these parts? ;)

Hmmm... would that be the "other" RWD product from "down under" that you've been pushing 'round these parts? ;)

My guess is another version of Camaro (top dog version?) to steal a little spot light from the Challenger. You can bet the farm that Chrysler is going to point out that the Challenger concept was shown at the same time as Camaro's, but has made it to production first. And you also can bet the farm that GM isn't going to let the Camaro get outstaged.

I'd also bet on a Chevrolet "concept" that's production oriented. Corvette ZR1 is also a safe bet.


Since we're on the subject of the Auto Show season:


Pontiac will have production G8s, as well as a rebadged Holden Ute "concept". Buick will be showing the Rivera concept, and Cadillac will be displaying the new CTSv. XLR is also due for a restyling and the current DTS is on it's last legs. I'd expect a concept on display as a styling trial for one or the other.

Ford has yet another version of the current Mustang. The new F series truck, the new MKS are to debut. Last year saw the revised Five Hundred. Should see something that at least points to a slightly revised Fusion. Ford's new "Kinetic" design should be on display on some type of vehicle at Detroit as a concept this round as well.

Chrysler will show the Challenger at Chicago. Beyond that, there's supposed to be another SRT on display this season, along with a Chrysler concept and yet another one for Jeep. I also hear that the Neon's true replacement (small sedan) will show up this season.

You can bet the farm that Chrysler is going to point out that the Challenger concept was shown at the same time as Camaro's, but has made it to production first.


Why shouldn't they, it is true...

Why shouldn't they, it is true...


True BUT, the Camaro is on a completly NEW platform, the Challenger is NOT!

That is true, but the outcome is still going to be the same.

True BUT, the Camaro is on a completly NEW platform, the Challenger is NOT!

I'd wager that Chrysler made as many changes to the LX to spawn the Challenger as GM will make to the VE/Zeta to get the Camaro.

I agree^

Chrysler will show the Challenger at Chicago. Beyond that, there's supposed to be another SRT on display this season, along with a Chrysler concept and yet another one for Jeep. I also hear that the Neon's true replacement (small sedan) will show up this season.

The NAIAS centerpiece for Chrysler should be the new Ram. Sources inside the company are VERY excited about it, for whatever that's worth.

The other SRT may be the Avenger, although that's been delayed so many times I wouldn't be surprised to see it delayed again.

The whole small-car program is something of a mystery. I don't know how they're doing it, but they're keeping a very tight lid on it.

I'd wager that Chrysler made as many changes to the LX to spawn the Challenger as GM will make to the VE/Zeta to get the Camaro.

You've still got the starting-point chassis already in production, and for several years now at that.

Still, it is of little consolation that Chrysler got a head-start on its platform. I'm sure no one in the general public will either know, or care, about the reasons why Challenger is beating Camaro to market.

I'd wager that Chrysler made as many changes to the LX to spawn the Challenger as GM will make to the VE/Zeta to get the Camaro.

could be true.. but Chrysler has a factory already assembling LX cars.. whereas GM needs to completely retool a factory that was already busy making completely different cars until recently

Lets not fool ourselves...GM has been PAINFULLY slow getting the Camaro to market. Next years NAIAS will be the THIRD consecutive year a Camaro Concept is shown...and we will still be a year from production. Name one other car that has been shown in concept form over 3 years before you can actually buy one. The thing is gonna need a MCE the year after it is released. I remember this happened with the T-bird in the 90's. Ford showed the car 2-3 years before you could buy one...and while sales were great the first year....they quickly tanked. The T-bird had other issues also...but the public gets bored quick...and I wonder how many potential sales Chevy is just wasting. Also, if I was Chevy...I would rather be doing battle now with the long in the tooth Mustang...than introducing the Camaro along side a new Mustang.

I would imagine the delay is not because of engineering because the car is largly a modified Commodore..so that tells me the delay is because of the plant. To me it sounds dumb to delay the most exciting product the company has had in 15-20 years so you can still build Grand Prix's and Buick Masterbators. There is probably plenty of reasons I don't know about causing the delay...but I felt the need to rant.

To me it sounds dumb to delay the most exciting product the company has had in 15-20 years so you can still build Grand Prix's and Buick Masterbators. There is probably plenty of reasons I don't know about causing the delay...but I felt the need to rant.
Can't say I've seen that particular model :shrug:

You may be right about the Camaro growing old before it hits the market though.

That must have been a tough call. On the one hand, you want to give the faithful SOMETHING asap, but if you do, then you have to wait longer than usual to bring it to market. If you wait a year or 2 to show it, then you p*ss off said faithful for 2 more years and watch them buy Mustangs. I'm glad they brought it out when they did, and I understand the timeframe involved, and know for a fact they wish it could be done sooner, but thems the breaks.

I agree w/ the MCE comment though, if indeed it looks very much like the concept, the "look" will be 3 years old by then. But I wonder, other than the nuts like us, has the general public actually seen the concepts enough that they would feel the syling is old news?

Can't say I've seen that particular model :shrug:



The Lacrosse -- in Quebecois ....

If GM didn't show the Camaro when they did, the Challenger would have been dominating the airwaves for an entire year. Would have made things interesting around here anyway.

Lets not fool ourselves...GM has been PAINFULLY slow getting the Camaro to market. Next years NAIAS will be the THIRD consecutive year a Camaro Concept is shown...and we will still be a year from production. Name one other car that has been shown in concept form over 3 years before you can actually buy one. The thing is gonna need a MCE the year after it is released. I remember this happened with the T-bird in the 90's. Ford showed the car 2-3 years before you could buy one...and while sales were great the first year....they quickly tanked. The T-bird had other issues also...but the public gets bored quick...and I wonder how many potential sales Chevy is just wasting. Also, if I was Chevy...I would rather be doing battle now with the long in the tooth Mustang...than introducing the Camaro along side a new Mustang.

I would imagine the delay is not because of engineering because the car is largly a modified Commodore..so that tells me the delay is because of the plant. To me it sounds dumb to delay the most exciting product the company has had in 15-20 years so you can still build Grand Prix's and Buick Masterbators. There is probably plenty of reasons I don't know about causing the delay...but I felt the need to rant.

Nice to see someone else rant about this, it seems some people will help GM make excuses for the delays. The general public doesn't care, when you show a car and people get excited you better be able to capitalize on it. If not, get the excuse list ready for why the car tanked which is what will probably happen to the camaro after a model year or 2.

But I wonder, other than the nuts like us, has the general public actually seen the concepts enough that they would feel the syling is old news?

* "Transformers" mean anything to you? It was a blockbuster.
* On every WalMart shelf - there's 3 dozen Bumblebees.
* T-shirts to lunch boxes - it's a marketing mecca.
* Hot Wheels has already modelled the new Camaro Concept car - it's been out a while.
* Matchbox also has a concept out.
* there are numerous models out for it already
* there are several R/C and plastic toys of the Camaro prototype bodystyle.
* soon to be 3 NAIAS shows as mentioned above
* press releases for two years in front of all creation
* it made the national news when it debuted in '05
* it's toured the country for 2 years at shows, events, fundraisers, etc.
* it's got it's own forum on several boards, and it's own website

Nah... I doubt if many people are even aware of it yet. :D

Seriously, this IS a good point. The body will be "old" to the eyes before the hands ever get to play with it. Methinks that will result in some lost sales when there are fresh Challengers, Mustangs, and others competing in a market. But I think those loses will be pretty small, and certainly the ones that are heart-set on a Camaro will not be swayed. The swing-buyers will be more persuaded by creature comforts, value, and styling and such than they will pure eye-appeal alone. That's why I am so adamant that the car has more than a rocket under the hood (as pointed out in the Bullitt thread).

I 100% understand GMs desire to let the faithful know that there is something coming, but it might end up being a tiny mistake to have revealed the car so far before manufacturing it. Time will tell.

GM took a long time with the Solstice as well. :irk:

The reason it takes so long says nothing about the ability, drive and determination of the engineers, designers and people behind bringing the Camaro back. It is more of a statement of how the bean counters and shareholders control GM, and they're cautious about investing more than they have to in order to maximize their potential earnings.

Besides, good things come to those who wait. :D

* "Transformers" mean anything to you? It was a blockbuster.
* On every WalMart shelf - there's 3 dozen Bumblebees.
* T-shirts to lunch boxes - it's a marketing mecca.
* Hot Wheels has already modelled the new Camaro Concept car - it's been out a while.
* Matchbox also has a concept out.
* there are numerous models out for it already
* there are several R/C and plastic toys of the Camaro prototype bodystyle.
* soon to be 3 NAIAS shows as mentioned above
* press releases for two years in front of all creation
* it made the national news when it debuted in '05
* it's toured the country for 2 years at shows, events, fundraisers, etc.
* it's got it's own forum on several boards, and it's own website

Nah... I doubt if many people are even aware of it yet. :D

Seriously, this IS a good point. The body will be "old" to the eyes before the hands ever get to play with it. Methinks that will result in some lost sales when there are fresh Challengers, Mustangs, and others competing in a market. But I think those loses will be pretty small, and certainly the ones that are heart-set on a Camaro will not be swayed. The swing-buyers will be more persuaded by creature comforts, value, and styling and such than they will pure eye-appeal alone. That's why I am so adamant that the car has more than a rocket under the hood (as pointed out in the Bullitt thread).

I 100% understand GMs desire to let the faithful know that there is something coming, but it might end up being a tiny mistake to have revealed the car so far before manufacturing it. Time will tell.

Well from now on in, I would think it would be fine, because outside of the shows, the movie really put the car on the map, and it will only be a year and a half from movie to showroom. My observation was that since the car was originally shown in Jan of 06, it will be 3 full years from first sight to showroom. For us, we don't care, but the point I was trying to make was that I don't think the GENERAL public has had nearly the face time w/ the concepts as the hard cores have, and if their first REAL exposure to the car was the movie, then 1.5 years is fine. But.....if not, after 3 years, for a fringe enthusiast, it might get old a little quicker than it would otherwise.

And by the way, not everyone saw the movie :D. I've seen bumblebee, but never saw the movie, maybe on DVD:D. Camaro or no, my wife didn't want to see a movie about toys w/ a bunch of 20 something guys:lol:.

With the year delay, I think you'd see the production Impala at NAIAS '10.

The Lacrosse -- in Quebecois ....
Yeah I totally forgot about that.

could be true.. but Chrysler has a factory already assembling LX cars.. whereas GM needs to completely retool a factory that was already busy making completely different cars until recently

No arguments there.

I was simply contesting the post that said the Camaro will be all new as opposed to the Challenger.

With the year delay, I think you'd see the production Impala at NAIAS '10.

So we're up to what... four years later than the original Zeta schedule?

GM took a long time with the Solstice as well. :irk:

For some reason, the Soltice did not seem nearly as long of a wait. My guess is because GM was not throwing new Soltice concepts out every NAIAS for three years reminding me how I could not buy one. As far as the Challenger...why waste time trying to steal it's thunder...when your car won't be on the road for another year a half. I would let the Challenger have it's moment in the sun. Then when you actually have a Camaro to sell, unleash a marketing fury unlike ever seen...and let the Camaro have it's moment. I also do not that think many people will cros shop Camaro and Challanger because of the size difference.

I also would have pushed Transformers back a year too. It is probaly the best Camaro marketing tool there is, and they used it two years before you could buy one? Unless there is a sequel?

So we're up to what... four years later than the original Zeta schedule?

Hah...geez I don't know. I saw the original schedule once. At least 3 years anyway.

I also would have pushed Transformers back a year too. It is probaly the best Camaro marketing tool there is, and they used it two years before you could buy one? Unless there is a sequel?I think by its success we can expect a sequel. Perhaps its timing will even be in sinc with the actual launch of the Camaro. :D

For some reason, the Soltice did not seem nearly as long of a wait. My guess is because GM was not throwing new Soltice concepts out every NAIAS for three years reminding me how I could not buy one. As far as the Challenger...why waste time trying to steal it's thunder...when your car won't be on the road for another year a half. I would let the Challenger have it's moment in the sun. Then when you actually have a Camaro to sell, unleash a marketing fury unlike ever seen...and let the Camaro have it's moment. I also do not that think many people will cros shop Camaro and Challanger because of the size difference.

I also would have pushed Transformers back a year too. It is probaly the best Camaro marketing tool there is, and they used it two years before you could buy one? Unless there is a sequel?

Solstice didn't seem as long of a wait because it wasn't. The based-on-an-existing-platform Camaro is taking a bit longer then the platform-that's-starting-from-scratch Solstice.

It was shown at the 2002 auto show with no initial plans for production, by the fall of 2004 GM was taking journalists on rides for handling feedback (complete with pictures) and was on the assembly line by summer (though showroom debuts were delayed till fall). On the Solstice's timeframe, GM should be taking journalists on rides and we'd see their pictures and read their stories around now.


Also, if you went to the producers of Transformers wanting them to delay the movie a year or two, they would have thanked you for your time.... and went with their original plans to use the new Volkswagen Beetle.

You're dead on the money about the wait being due to the factory. But I wouldn't slam GM for delaying Camaro while running the clock out on the Monte Carlo & Grand Prix. Makes no sense to set up a line just for Camaro when Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac are going to be using the same line and it's cars don't come out till the 2010-2011 time frame. Takes alot of money, and GM's pacing itself. Also had to see what was going to happen with new contracts.

FWIW, Buick's Lacrosse is moving over to Impala's assembly line & will continue till the current Impala is replaced. Next gen Lacrosse will be made alongside the Malibu & the next gen Aura at Fairfax Kansas.... along with any other Espilon based vehicle on the books that winds up in production.

Solstice didn't seem as long of a wait because it wasn't. The based-on-an-existing-platform Camaro is taking a bit longer then the platform-that's-starting-from-scratch Solstice.

It was shown at the 2002 auto show with no initial plans for production, by the fall of 2004 GM was taking journalists on rides for handling feedback (complete with pictures) and was on the assembly line by summer (though showroom debuts were delayed till fall). On the Solstice's timeframe, GM should be taking journalists on rides and we'd see their pictures and read their stories around now.

That is what I thought....seemed like the Soltice was no where near as long.

Also, if you went to the producers of Transformers wanting them to delay the movie a year or two, they would have thanked you for your time.... and went with their original plans to use the new Volkswagen Beetle.

I thought GM owned the script?

You're dead on the money about the wait being due to the factory. But I wouldn't slam GM for delaying Camaro while running the clock out on the Monte Carlo & Grand Prix. Makes no sense to set up a line just for Camaro when Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac are going to be using the same line and it's cars don't come out till the 2010-2011 time frame. Takes alot of money, and GM's pacing itself. Also had to see what was going to happen with new contracts.

If I were GM, and my turn around was all about product...I would be finding the money, and a place to make the Camaro NOW....even if it means making the car outta Bob Lutz's garage. Grand Prix and Monte Carlo are afterthoughts that GM sell to rental fleets for almost no money. If the Camaro can hit the same 200,000 unit a year mark as Mustang...then the plant will be plenty busy. Plus from what I understand, the RWD sedans are similar to the Camaro, which is similar to the Commodore. They should be easier to develop than the Camaro...so why not rush them ahead too. Plus these cars have been in the works just as long as the Camaro.

It makes absolutly no sense to delay hot new products so that you can keep building rental cars. As for the Unions...as far as I know...the CAW has a contract already...so what is the issue? [/quote]

FWIW, Buick's Lacrosse is moving over to Impala's assembly line & will continue till the current Impala is replaced. Next gen Lacrosse will be made alongside the Malibu & the next gen Aura at Fairfax Kansas.... along with any other Espilon based vehicle on the books that winds up in production.

I wonder if there will be a Epsion based Grand Prix platform mate. I think there is a market for a bigger than G6 FWD sedan.

If I were GM, and my turn around was all about product...I would be finding the money, and a place to make the Camaro NOW....even if it means making the car outta Bob Lutz's garage. Grand Prix and Monte Carlo are afterthoughts that GM sell to rental fleets for almost no money. If the Camaro can hit the same 200,000 unit a year mark as Mustang...then the plant will be plenty busy. Plus from what I understand, the RWD sedans are similar to the Camaro, which is similar to the Commodore. They should be easier to develop than the Camaro...so why not rush them ahead too. Plus these cars have been in the works just as long as the Camaro.

It makes absolutly no sense to delay hot new products so that you can keep building rental cars. As for the Unions...as far as I know...the CAW has a contract already...so what is the issue?


You've never done product development before, have you. The variables are cost, quality, and time to market. If you shorten time to market, cost and quality suffer.

You can bet that there is a complicated schedule with lots of interdepencies, with all components slotted to come in at just the right time. The idea that, 15 months ahead of start of production and roughly 2/3 of the way through the schedule, you can just find another plant and start building what you've got, right now, is laughable.


I wonder if there will be a Epsion based Grand Prix platform mate. I think there is a market for a bigger than G6 FWD sedan.

Wouldn't that be the Impala, LaCrosse, and Lucerne?

Also, if you went to the producers of Transformers wanting them to delay the movie a year or two, they would have thanked you for your time.... and went with their original plans to use the new Volkswagen Beetle.


I'd imagine you're right in saying Michael Bay & Co. would have told them to fly a kite, but the New Beetle was never going to be used. Btw, a TF sequel is planned for 2009.

If the Camaro can hit the same 200,000 unit a year mark as Mustang...then the plant will be plenty busy.

Could be wrong, but I thought Mustang's high point for the '05+ model was only in the neighborhood of 150,000 cars.

On the Solstice's timeframe, GM should be taking journalists on rides and we'd see their pictures and read their stories around now.

To be accurate, this has already happened....though it is not a pre-production car, just the running concept. :)

You've never done product development before, have you. The variables are cost, quality, and time to market. If you shorten time to market, cost and quality suffer.

The problem here is NOT the time it takes to develop the car. It's the fact that GM does not have a place to make it. Remember...Holden has the lead development on this car...they can turn a VE Commedore into a coupe with their hands tied behind their back. This is not rocket science. I would expect the hardest thing they are facing actually is taking cost out the car to get it down to a $20K price.


You can bet that there is a complicated schedule with lots of interdepencies, with all components slotted to come in at just the right time. The idea that, 15 months ahead of start of production and roughly 2/3 of the way through the schedule, you can just find another plant and start building what you've got, right now, is laughable.

If GM wanted the car on the road in two years, they could do it from a development stand point. Platform wise, it is pretty much a parts bin car. Again...the main delay is the plant.

Wouldn't that be the Impala, LaCrosse, and Lucerne?
Grand Prix is bought buy people who want more emotion in their sedan...but can't/won't buy a FWD one. It sold well until the last redesign uglified it, and GM did not invest in it. You kill Grand Prix, and those buyers buy Maximas, Mazda6's, or Altimas...not Impala's and Lucernes.

It is fine to kill redunent cars...but in my mine the Grand Prix is not redundent. At least not as redundent as Lucerne and LaCrosse. I think Buick needs a small to G6 sized car honestly...I see a lot of little old people driving small cars now.

Could be wrong, but I thought Mustang's high point for the '05+ model was only in the neighborhood of 150,000 cars.



To be accurate, this has already happened....though it is not a pre-production car, just the running concept. :)

the car is limited to 40mph, come on. That wouldn't excite the dead.

the car is limited to 40mph, come on. That wouldn't excite the dead.

:lol: Obviously, I'm just saying journalists have been given rides, and have written glowing articles about it.

Another one took forever that comes to mind is the SSR. What was it NAIAS 1999 is when the concept debuted but it didn't make it to production until late 2003. By that time te SSR had been plastered on everything, you couldn't walk down the toy section at Wal-Mart without seeing it in 10 different forms. And when it finally made production it was like:tired:

I really hope this doesn't happen to Camaro!

Solstice didn't seem as long of a wait because it wasn't. The based-on-an-existing-platform Camaro is taking a bit longer then the platform-that's-starting-from-scratch Solstice.


I thought that is the whole reason that the Challenger is going to beat the Camaro to market by so long, I'm confused.... :shrug:

If GM wanted the car on the road in two years, they could do it from a development stand point. Platform wise, it is pretty much a parts bin car. Again...the main delay is the plant.



At this point, it's scheduled to be here in 16 months, which is less than 2 years....

At this point, it's scheduled to be here in 16 months, which is less than 2 years....

It will be over 3 years from concept to production.

I hate to say it, but in my opinion Chevy blew it. At this point, with the complete embargo on concrete information, the Challenger is hands down (again IMO) a far more attractive car. A 2010 6.4 liter Challenger is my target car at this point. Chevrolet is going to have to make the Camaro something extraordinary to earn my jack.

I hate to say it, but in my opinion Chevy blew it. At this point, with the complete embargo on concrete information, the Challenger is hands down (again IMO) a far more attractive car. A 2010 6.4 liter Challenger is my target car at this point. Chevrolet is going to have to make the Camaro something extraordinary to earn my jack.

If you're going to be looking at a vehicle that size around that time frame, you might as well wait a little longer and see how the next gen Impala turns out...

If you're going to be looking at a vehicle that size around that time frame, you might as well wait a little longer and see how the next gen Impala turns out...

Or Pontiac's GTO. ;)

I'd imagine you're right in saying Michael Bay & Co. would have told them to fly a kite, but the New Beetle was never going to be used. Btw, a TF sequel is planned for 2009.

Actually, it was.

The original script called for Bumblebee to be a Beetle. Michael Bay, when he saw the Camaro concept, wanted it instead, and proceeded to work with GM to hammer out an agreement to use the concept's likeness in the movie. If Bay hadn't seen the concept and been won over by it or if Bay & GM didn't reach some type of agreement, then this conversation would be taking place on a VW Beetle site.

There is an internet rumor that Volkswagen wanted a higher fee for use of the Beetle than GM did for the Camaro concept that hasn't been confirmed. But there is a tongue-in-cheek part in the movie where Bumblebee in 2nd gen Camaro form beats the hell out of a old Beetle in the used car lot near the begining that was Bay's idea, so I'm guessing there was something to that (despite Bay saying in the press that associations with "Herbie the Love Bug" was the reason... those involved say it wasn't).

The movie Transformers has quite a few otherwise overlooked scenes that were put into the movie on purpose, caught only by those who followed the movie's development. Such as the GTO late in the movie that was pulled to pieces.... which represented the GTO donor car that was converted to the Camaro for the movie. :)

I can't wait for the Transformers DVD...

There is an internet rumor that Volkswagen wanted a higher fee for use of the Beetle than GM did for the Camaro concept that hasn't been confirmed.

That rumor has the money going in the wrong direction. GM paid to put their cars in the movie, either directly and/or through in kind advertising. (And as to the relative importance of financial versus creative, when deciding on the cars, we can only speculate.)

Guy, nobody gets to charge for product use in movies anymore. The money ALWAYS goes FROM the product providers TO the moviemaking dudes, never ever the other way around.

Even Ford had to pay a TON of money to get James Bond back in Astons.

Guy, nobody gets to charge for product use in movies anymore. The money ALWAYS goes FROM the product providers TO the moviemaking dudes, never ever the other way around.

Even Ford had to pay a TON of money to get James Bond back in Astons.

Which is why I called it internet rumors, as opposed to the rest of what I posted. Reality could be anything.

Perhaps someone at VW pissed him off, hence that scene of the Beetle getting bashed in by the car that they did pick. :think:

Actually, it was.


Perhaps in the original script while it was being pitched, but Bay never wanted it. The draft copy that was floating around the Internet references the Camaros.

Also of note: Audi AG is against their vehicles being used as "war toys" (no Porsche for Jazz, no VW for Bumblebee, etc). This news came out when the recent 1/24th scale Transformers: Alternators toy line was released.

Perhaps in the original script while it was being pitched, but Bay never wanted it. The draft copy that was floating around the Internet references the Camaros.


Specifically, the script referenced the "2006 Chevy Camaro GTO". GM sure is taking a long time to get that model to the market :lol:

I am slightly confused because although the original Jazz was a 935, Porsche AG is not part of Audi-VW. However, Porsche AG began to buy up shares of VW in 2005 and as of '07 bought about 30% of the company.

So basically Porsche has a say in what Audi-VW does, but not really the other way around.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Porsche-VAG_Alliance.svg/800px-Porsche-VAG_Alliance.svg.png

You've never done product development before, have you. The variables are cost, quality, and time to market. If you shorten time to market, cost and quality suffer.
We've never done product development before, but Chrysler has, and they seem to do it quicker.

I'm dead set on buying a Camaro, but most people are not. To people simply looking for the hottest new ride, the Challenger will be here sooner, and has seen much less exposure.

I'm very concerned that the current Camaro style is seeing its market peak before it even hits the production line. Will it still seem fresh and new in 2010?

I'm very concerned that the current Camaro style is seeing its market peak before it even hits the production line. Will it still seem fresh and new in 2010?

Ditto.

Frankly, the freshness of the Camaro is already wearing thin with me - and we're still about a year and a half out from actually being able to buy one.

If you're going to be looking at a vehicle that size around that time frame, you might as well wait a little longer and see how the next gen Impala turns out...

The are gonna build a 2 door Impala again? :think:

We've never done product development before, but Chrysler has, and they seem to do it quicker.

I'm dead set on buying a Camaro, but most people are not. To people simply looking for the hottest new ride, the Challenger will be here sooner, and has seen much less exposure.

I'm very concerned that the current Camaro style is seeing its market peak before it even hits the production line. Will it still seem fresh and new in 2010?

Honestly, I don't see it being as fresh as it would have been if the concept debuted, say, this January instead of 2 years ago. But look at how many people here were calling GM everything short of Satan for not posting blueprints of the car even before the concept's pics made it to the internet. Right now, we're in the odd position of knowing what the 2010 Camaro looks like for over a year and a half, with over another year to go, yet the same year next gen Mustang is still hidden.


Still, seeing the new Camaro in the flesh on the street, among other cars will still make it stand out. If anything, the Camaro may age prematurely, but I don't think it will be viewed as an old design when it hit's the streets.

We've never done product development before, but Chrysler has, and they seem to do it quicker.

Are you basing that on how quickly Chrylser is getting Challenger to market?

Do you realize that Challenger is pretty much a rebodied, shortened Charger/300/Magnum, while Camaro is new from the ground up?

Honestly, I don't see it being as fresh as it would have been if the concept debuted, say, this January instead of 2 years ago. But look at how many people here were calling GM everything short of Satan for not posting blueprints of the car even before the concept's pics made it to the internet.


:D

Everyone wanted info. Now that they have it, everyone's complaining that they got the info too soon.

Do you realize that Challenger is pretty much a rebodied, shortened Charger/300/Magnum, while Camaro is new from the ground up?

Not quite. Challenger is actually more of a shortened next-gen Charger/300/Magnum, and Camaro is a tweaked Zeta. And given that GM has been producing Zetas (in AUS) for a while now (and has been working on the platform for what, seven years at this point?) it's not quite fair to say it's "new from the ground up".

The real difference, and the real cause of the lag, is that GM hasn't been producing Zetas in North America, and is reworking Oshawa as a state-of-the-art flex plant before starting production, whereas Challenger will be built on an existing flex line at Brampton.

Not quite. Challenger is actually more of a shortened next-gen Charger/300/Magnum, and Camaro is a tweaked Zeta. And given that GM has been producing Zetas (in AUS) for a while now (and has been working on the platform for what, seven years at this point?) it's not quite fair to say it's "new from the ground up".

The real difference, and the real cause of the lag, is that GM hasn't been producing Zetas in North America, and is reworking Oshawa as a state-of-the-art flex plant before starting production, whereas Challenger will be built on an existing flex line at Brampton.

Makes sense. Camaro probably could have come to market as much as a year sooner if it had been built in Australia. But that has its own set of problems.

Not quite. Challenger is actually more of a shortened next-gen Charger/300/Magnum, and Camaro is a tweaked Zeta. And given that GM has been producing Zetas (in AUS) for a while now (and has been working on the platform for what, seven years at this point?) it's not quite fair to say it's "new from the ground up".

The real difference, and the real cause of the lag, is that GM hasn't been producing Zetas in North America, and is reworking Oshawa as a state-of-the-art flex plant before starting production, whereas Challenger will be built on an existing flex line at Brampton.I thought NA-Zeta and AU-Zeta weren't the same. :confused:

Are you basing that on how quickly Chrylser is getting Challenger to market?

Do you realize that Challenger is pretty much a rebodied, shortened Charger/300/Magnum, while Camaro is new from the ground up?
That won't mean anything to the market. I understand what's going into Camaro development and hope we ultimately get a better car from it, but that has always been Camaro's curse. It's always been the the better engineered pony car, but that's never made a difference to most of the public.

Also - and I know this is an oversimplification - but isn't the Camaro in some sense of the word a rebodied G8/Commodore?

Also - and I know this is an oversimplification - but isn't the Camaro in some sense of the word a rebodied G8/Commodore?

Yeah, sort of. Zeta was originally cancelled because GMNA's manufacturing process didn't fit with Holden's.

The Camaro (and Impala), will be based on Zeta 2 - which is essentially a refreshed version of Zeta.

NA Zeta is to the Aussie Zeta what the next gen LX is to the current.

Challenger is based on the next gen LX. Camaro is based on the next gen Zeta (the North American version will spread to the Aussie version... they developed both).

Those of you dismissing the Challenger as a revised Charger while the Camaro is new from the ground up will want to reconsider, because you're wrong. ;)

Those of you dismissing the Challenger as a revised Charger while the Camaro is new from the ground up will want to reconsider, because you're wrong. ;)

Then what's the real reason that Challenger is expected to hit the market so much sooner than Camaro?

Then what's the real reason that Challenger is expected to hit the market so much sooner than Camaro?

The need to gut and re-do Oshawa to build Zetas.

Then what's the real reason that Challenger is expected to hit the market so much sooner than Camaro?

1. What George said.

2. The Challenger was farther along in development when it was shown.