1st info on Bullitt Mustang

From StangNet:

http://www.mustangevolution.com/images/mainpagenews/bullitt.jpg
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2007/09/medium_2008-bullitt-spy-01.jpg

The 2008 Bullitt Mustang, which was confirmed in Ford’s “Way Forward”, will be the best interpretation of the 1968 390 GT driven by Steve McQueen in the movie Bullitt. The Bullitt will likely receive a plain grille without a galloping pony badge or spotlights, a black painted panel between the taillights and of course the car will be available in Highland Green. Power output is speculated at around 310 horsepower and will include a lowered suspension.

The date production is to begin is speculated to be early December 2007.



* FR Power Pack Estimated 312HP
* Shock/Strut Tuning

* Strut Tower Brace

* Upgraded Steering System

* Red Brake Calipers

* 3:73 Axle Ratio

* X-Pipe Exhaust w/Bright Exhaust Tips

* Unique Sport Seating

* Unique Sill Plate

* Bright Metal Trim & Unique Shifter

* Available In Highland Green Or Black

* Unique Grill V6 Style (w/o Fog Lamps)

* Rear Faux Gas Cap w/Bullitt Logo

* Cap Surround Painted Charcoal Gray

* 18″ Bullitt Style Wheel

* Red Brake Calipers

* $TBD MSRP

* Program Length: 6 Months

* Total Volume: 7,000 US, 700 Canada

* Allocation TBD

(and no, Blacloc, you can't order it yet ;) )

Oh man, all the performance add ons!!
RED Calipers!
BRIGHT exhaust tips!
V6 Grill design!!!
FAKE BULLIT GAS DOOR!!
RUNIQUE SILL PLATES!! OHHH MAN, WHEN CAN I PLACE THE ORDER!!

I hope it does not have louvers on the rear windows. Otherwise it is pretty cool, except for the last gen Bullitt owners who were told they would be the last to get Highland green.

Yet another dolled up Mustang GT with no real content. Most everything in that list could be found in a RK Sport product brochure....

:cry:

The last however many "packages" I have seen from Ford are at best nothing more than a dolled up Mustang GT that Ford is way over charging for. i.e. Shelby GT. When will Ford offer a Mustang with some real content that fits in between the GT and Cobra? Such as the previous generation Mach 1?

312HP?

Pffft.... ;)

They'll all be sold out before they even hit the lot.

When will Ford offer a Mustang with some real content that fits in between the GT and Cobra? Such as the previous generation Mach 1?

Maybe that's what the Mach1 will do when it does come out. I'm sure something like it is in the plans.

The previous gen Bullitt wasn't really anything more than an appearance package.

312HP?

Pffft.... ;)

That'll really give those 6.1 Challengers something to worry about...

Now that is a sharp looking car. Too bad the performance isn't up to snuff. I can't wait to see one of these that looks stock but is modded to high hell.:D

Maybe that's what the Mach1 will do when it does come out. I'm sure something like it is in the plans.

The previous gen Bullitt wasn't really anything more than an appearance package.
It did have a few more enhancements that weren't just appearance. The shocks were revalved, throttle body enlarged, aluminum intake manifold added, and the mufflers were a little more aggressive. But other than that it was an appearance package.

Ooops, double post.

They'll all be sold out before they even hit the lot.

That's what's lost in all the bashing.

A bit unique, but the price for what you get wouldn't personally be my cup o' tea. Especially with a plain grill. The Mustang's grill is so expansive it looks terrible in plain V6 trim without anything to break it up. :shrug:

Dumbfounded or not, they will sell.

Not to me, but to plenty of others.

I get it. If I was going to buy a GT to start modding, I'd seriously consider this one just on looks. But IMO what they really need is a car between the GT and the Shelby -- a 400 hp $32k car that isn't some super-limited edition, but is widely available. Where is it?

Like a BOSS/MACh1 permanently in the line...
not just a S/E

Better than the last Bullett this one actually looks like the origional.. almost too much! It will sell and I like it. Not for the performance minded people but there are lots of Mustang buyers whom don't want or need the GT500.

Like the world needs a flock of 12 second factory mustangs. The first bullitt wasn't about eyeball sucking power, it was an appearence package with a bit more power and an emphasis placed on handling (stiffer chassis and unique suspension tune). Before the Shelby Gt, I thought raiding the parts bin for the FRPP packages would work well, but sadly the Bullitt is just a variation of the Shelby GT. This car could have been really cool if they would have added the GT500 brakes and some 18x8's shod in the GT500's front rubber with a tuned suspension to match, along with the afrementioned 3.73's and the GT500's 6 speed (to make up for the shorter gearing). I doubt with the added weight of the 6-spd and brakes it would blister a GT in the 1/4, but it would be more in line with the original concept of the car (little better power and much better handling/braking)

Is Ford scared of tipping its hand for the next generation before the new Camaro is released? That is the only thing I can think of for the ridiculously low hp numbers for this car. At least it holds the same true form as the last one which was a whole 5 hp over the GT.

Maybe that's what the Mach1 will do when it does come out. I'm sure something like it is in the plans.

The previous gen Bullitt wasn't really anything more than an appearance package.

I really liked the appearance of the aluminum intake, larger throttle body, underdrive pullies, louder and freer flowing exhaust, upgraded suspension, lowered ride height, and cobra brakes. :rolleyes:

Wow. They managed to make this generation's iteration of the Bullitt just as lackluster as the SN95's.

Even if you are a fan of the new Mustang, why would you buy this? Of course, people are gonna.

I really liked the appearance of the aluminum intake, larger throttle body, underdrive pullies, louder and freer flowing exhaust, upgraded suspension, lowered ride height, and cobra brakes. :rolleyes:

And yet, you didn't get a lot of content in all of those add ons. 265hp is not some kind of blistering upgrade over 260.

I love those wheels. :bow:

Yuk..I didn't think Ford could make the Mustang any more boring than it already is.

I cant wait to see what all lil packages Chevy has for the next Camaro!

But im hoping our V6 has almost the power of their high tech V8. And LOL@ 312hp Bullitt... shesh. Im tired of being told how great that motor is. The car will probably only average 21-22mpg too... you watch!

It'll get that if you drive like a maniac in town, driven with an eye towards economy it'll get 28-29 miles to the gallon.

Should be good for high 13's just like the Shelby GT a 93 Camaro.

It'll get that if you drive like a maniac in town, driven with an eye towards economy it'll get 28-29 miles to the gallon.

And how exactly would it do that? It doesn't have the benefit of a ridiculously overdriven 6th gear, and the regular GTs certainly don't get that kind of fuel economy. The 3.73s certainly aren't going to help either.

I bet if you drove it like a maniac you could get around 15-16mpg.

The last gen Bullitts were noticeably quicker than the regular GTs. As in more than 5hp faster. But that may be because of the "significantly more" torque that they were advertised with.

And yet, you didn't get a lot of content in all of those add ons. 265hp is not some kind of blistering upgrade over 260.

In addition to the items I mentioned previously:

*Sub Frame Connectors
*Rolled Stainless Exhaust tips
*Special Color
*Engine compartment clear coated
*Cobra seats with unique retro style
*Unique gauge cluster
*blanked out side scoops
*Aluminum shift ball, pedals, shifter trim ring, door lock soldiers and door sill panels
*unique c-pillar glass and panel
*blacked out grille

All for about $1500 more than a loaded GT. For that much, I think it's a lot of content and minimal charge to get a unique look and limited production car.

Oh, and the HP rating was actually 275 (it was revised upwards) but it doesn't really matter. If you're looking for some specific numbers (power, quarter mile times, etc.) then it's not the car for you. Its a popular car to bash by people looking for all out performance, but there's something special about the 01's. They really managed to capture the appeal of the 60's Mustangs without blatantly trying to be one.

Mine's slow as hell, but I love it.

And how exactly would it do that? It doesn't have the benefit of a ridiculously overdriven 6th gear, and the regular GTs certainly don't get that kind of fuel economy. The 3.73s certainly aren't going to help either.

I bet if you drove it like a maniac you could get around 15-16mpg.

I drive like a maniac and average 20 to 21 miles to the gallon, when pressed for time and riding to work on an empty tank (I live about 30 miles from work) I did everything I could to maximize fuel economy and averaged over the 28 miles to the gallon ,easy enough, it involves starting in 3rd gear and shifting into 5th at about 1500 to 1900 rpm (the trick is to get the engine to accelerate slowly with a wide open throttle so that you minimize pumping losses and maximize dynamic compression - like a desiel) mnd pay attention to the fuel economy gauge that Ford provides in the car, and do the speed limit, ergo 28 miles to the gallon. This was also with the windows up and the AC off.

When I have fuel to spare, it starts out something like this, get out the door, start the car up jump in and off to work - mind the tack, supposed to bad putting it past 2500 or 3000 rpm with a heavy load, but dang there is this sweet road on the way to work that just begs to the car to be steered with the throttle and its a blast doing 60 to 70 through a good portion of it, okay, on to a feeder road, dont want to get caught by the soccor moms and people who hate there job - oh look, a prick on the cell phone, probably cant multi-task at work either, gotta be first to the light.

Okay, i'm about the sixth guy back, this light is not to bad, I hope the ding dongs put it in gear, I'll take the left lane, everybody goes to the right. Dang that jerk on the cell phone, gald his car is slower, see yah. Gotta get the light before the bridge, pass a coupla cars, watch for cops, great, first at the light to the bridge - manI hate people who accelerate like they've got no place to go, so accelerate like you got a pair, cause I know there is probably a guy like me back there, maybe he'll get a break if I dont lolly gag like the rest of these clowns, opps, watch the bridge, state police always sit in the emeragancy pull off to the right or at the foot of the bridge? Wonder if the minvan doing 70 in a 45 will fly by while get pulled for doing 50 in a 45, I guess DWBs realy do exsist??

Alright, no cops, it says 55, but these goons are moving slow and its a fast light up here, 70 is a good speed, pass a few cars and first to the light, nail the gas so I can keep my average down and my average speed up. Okay, gotta jocky for the right lane and get through to lights to make the turn, damn got the turn but I'm behind a truck and I got 600 feet to pass this guy after I come off the turn, nail the gas and pass him and keep on trucking to the next, everybody takes the right lane to get onto the highway and its another fast light, I'll take the left and hope I'm firs to the light or they guys in the right lane dont dissappoint and drive like they hate thier jobs and dont want to get there.

Great, I'm behind grandma! Okay this might make me a jerk but maybe she will take the hint if I ride her butt, dang, she's slow and the other guys are slower, WTF? man that prick in the Izuzu box truck doesn't want to let me over, oh well, keep it torqued up in 2nd and I'll take the first chance I get to get over - man this is a stupid on/off ramp design and on a busy frigg'n road, look at these ding dongs? they're coming off and they yield to no traffic almost to a stop??? No I gotta cut around the guy who's trying to merge, glad I' mstill in second doing 45, onto the ramp, keep it in second, get up to 50 -55 mph so I can merge when I get on the highway - IRS is for wimps, this on ramp is bumpy as hell, SRA seems to hold it pretty good, damn coming up on the highway floor it, I see traffic is goign easily 70, there's my spot, I get there and I can get over to the left lane before the other on ramp hits - why the hell do people try to merge at 30 mph on here, no wonder they have a frigg'n traffic jam every day - Oh damn, I'm doing 70 and this guy is gonna cut me off or make me stop and wait to merge, screw that! slap it into 3rd and ride it out to the centry mark, most of these guys back off at 85 to 90.

Well I'll hit 110 just for [censored] and giggles, to many trees for the cops anyways and I didn't see in plain malibu's or crown vics back there. Cool, the fast lane is doing 80, just remember when I hit the HOV zone that the cops hide in the break in the barrier, opps forgot about 5th gear! okay ease off to 70 unless I see a cop sitting in the break, alright coming up on that off ramp, gotta practice this one just in case I run into that prick with the 5 series again, the one that rolled down the window and gave me the "puh-lease" look when I kept on his ass. Hah, you geeks are slow, I'm doing 70 on this off ramp, let me downshift and bleed off speed through the esse and steer the car with the throttle, look to the left on the overpass, pick my spot and get back on the gas so I line up for my spot - man I hate this section of road, to many damn stop lights, and I gotta cut over two lanes or play stop and go to every moron turning to the right, opps left it in third and I'm doing 55. well atleast I made it to work!

On the way home is similar except for the first on-ramp, gotta hit that baby with a closing radius doing the speed limit and nail the apex so I'm doing 70 when I merge onto the highway.

My car is equipped with 3.55 gears, so I'd imagine the mileage would be close between the two.

that post almost makes me miss driving in a busy city :D

The 2008 Bullitt Mustang, which was confirmed in Ford’s “Way Forward”, will be the best interpretation of the 1968 390 GT driven by Steve McQueen in the movie Bullitt. The Bullitt will likely receive a plain grille without a galloping pony badge or spotlights, a black painted panel between the taillights and of course the car will be available in Highland Green. Power output is speculated at around 310 horsepower and will include a lowered suspension.


Guy,
You just had to open this can of worms (again) didn't you? ;)
And since our last go-round with this subject, nothing's changed.
I'm tired of explaining what "MARKETING" is to a bunch of gear-heads that only see 1/4 mile times or dyno numbers.
Apparently, they STILL don't understand why their car of choice died, and the "other car" - you know, the pathetic one that sucks at everything - still lives on in flourishing fashion, setting sales records for high prices, with numerous exclusive offerings, and a growing global fanbase that is fertilizing the largest organized club(s) and racing organizations in the world.
Hey, it's GOTTA suck with creds like that, huh?

Jou wanna 'splain it to dem Lucy?
I'n gonna go to da club, had a beer, and dance for money.

This crowd is reeeee-markable. :rolleyes:

I really liked the appearance of the aluminum intake, larger throttle body, underdrive pullies, louder and freer flowing exhaust, upgraded suspension, lowered ride height, and cobra brakes. :rolleyes:

You forgot to mention that the Bullitt intake was the first dual-butterfly unit offered on 4.6s - twin 57mm units I think. That became a very common upgrade for high-rev 4.6s to breathe better and make much improved power in later units, and ultimately became the accepted base unit, no?

As mentioned - the brakes were exceptional peices too - leading into the brakes for the Terminator Cobras. But hey, nobody uses better brakes to get faster 1/4 times I guess.

We could go on, but it's a moot point.

Sidebar - Your 01 is about to take a JUMP in value, not decrease. This new model will have collectors in a frenzy, and once the hype hits, anything with "Bullitt" beside it in a classified ad will get more looks.
Also, I am hearing some ramblings about a new Bullitt movie again. Brad Pitt was to be the lead in the one that 9/11 squashed from being filmed back in 2001/2002. Personally, I think it's about time Ford did a movie the spotlighted some of their new products - like GM did with Transformers.
It's well-proven that movies that star the car make sales and image for the carmaker... Smokey and the Bandit, Gone in 60 Seconds, etc.

So keep enjoying your '01, and watch it start to rise in value.:cool:

They really managed to capture the appeal of the 60's Mustangs without blatantly trying to be one.



Appeal. Everyone read that? Appeal.

Here's where my brutal honesty will get me flamed on a 4th gen site.

To 99.9% of the human population, the 4th gen lacked any appeal whatsoever. (Do the numbers, cause I'm being very generous). And the majority of that remaining .1%, can trace what appeals to them to the designation "LS1".

The last Bullitt was dripping in cool appeal. I expect the next one to be no different. EVERY last one will be quickly snapped up by eager buyers. Why is it, on an enthusiast site, so hard for people to accept/appreciate a car that is cool?

Oh, I know. If you admit that a car with less than xxx hp is cool, your e-wang will shrink. Got it.


JMHO :D

312HP?

Pffft.... ;)

Will there ever be a day when the GT can match, just match the performance output of the antiquated LS1. Is 345-350 HP that hard for Ford to hit?

Guy,
You just had to open this can of worms (again) didn't you? ;)
And since our last go-round with this subject, nothing's changed.
I'm tired of explaining what "MARKETING" is to a bunch of gear-heads that only see 1/4 mile times or dyno numbers.
Apparently, they STILL don't understand why their car of choice died, and the "other car" - you know, the pathetic one that sucks at everything - still lives on in flourishing fashion, setting sales records for high prices, with numerous exclusive offerings, and a growing global fanbase that is fertilizing the largest organized club(s) and racing organizations in the world.
Hey, it's GOTTA suck with creds like that, huh?

Jou wanna 'splain it to dem Lucy?
I'n gonna go to da club, had a beer, and dance for money.

This crowd is reeeee-markable. :rolleyes:

Its not that we dont know... its just we dont care! lol

I know its marketing and i even said I cant wait to see what all cheasey crap Chevy comes up with for the next Camaro. Thank God we wont see that 312hp garbage though.

That being said... 312 hp is a joke and Ford should be ashamed. Its 2008 and that bullitt wouldnt penetrate a can of lard!


Life is relative. And to me, and most other gearheads, that car is slow and has been needing 50 more hp for a solid decade.

And yet, you didn't get a lot of content in all of those add ons. 265hp is not some kind of blistering upgrade over 260.

Spoken like a true, out of touch, "I don't comprehend anything that doesn't create lots more horsepower despite other many upgrades"*, Camaro enthusiast. :lol:

* meant as a poke in the ribs, not a malicious comment. ;)

Will there ever be a day when the GT can match, just match the performance output of the antiquated LS1. Is 345-350 HP that hard for Ford to hit?

Any trained monkey can create a engine that will "match the performance output of the antiquated LS1". But sales and profitability is far more important.

Mustang has been selling at well over 150,000 vehicles annually pretty much every year over the last 10 years.

And where's the Camaro been for the last half of that??? ;)

Its not that we dont know... its just we dont care! lol

I know its marketing and i even said I cant wait to see what all cheasey crap Chevy comes up with for the next Camaro. Thank God we wont see that 312hp garbage though.

That being said... 312 hp is a joke and Ford should be ashamed. Its 2008 and that bullitt wouldnt penetrate a can of lard!


Life is relative. And to me, and most other gearheads, that car is slow and has been needing 50 more hp for a solid decade.

Agreed. In this age of V6 engines reaching 300 horsepower, 312 horseys isn't that much of an impressive number anymore.

But again, it isn't all about the ponies.

I cant wait to see what all lil packages Chevy has for the next Camaro!

But im hoping our V6 has almost the power of their high tech V8. And LOL@ 312hp Bullitt... shesh. Im tired of being told how great that motor is. The car will probably only average 21-22mpg too... you watch!

Although being the same size engine as GM's 5.3 and getting more horsepower, I'll conceed that with GM's new smaller direct injection V6 getting over 300 horsepower, the horsepower rating is no longer very impressive.

This begs the question: Is it worthwhile to continue to offer the GM 5.3 in cars? And with Ford about to come out with a similar high output V6, will the 4.6 soon be irrelevent?

Guy,
You just had to open this can of worms (again) didn't you? ;)
And since our last go-round with this subject, nothing's changed.
I'm tired of explaining what "MARKETING" is to a bunch of gear-heads that only see 1/4 mile times or dyno numbers.
Apparently, they STILL don't understand why their car of choice died, and the "other car" - you know, the pathetic one that sucks at everything - still lives on in flourishing fashion, setting sales records for high prices, with numerous exclusive offerings, and a growing global fanbase that is fertilizing the largest organized club(s) and racing organizations in the world.
Hey, it's GOTTA suck with creds like that, huh?

Jou wanna 'splain it to dem Lucy?
I'n gonna go to da club, had a beer, and dance for money.

This crowd is reeeee-markable. :rolleyes:

Monty Python once had a skit about a knight that despite being dismembered by an adversary which had cut off both arms and legs, said it was only a flesh wound and admonished his attacker to come back and fight. One of the funniest skits they ever came up with. That's the mentality of many of the more vocal Camaro enthusiasts here.

Mustang anniliated the 4th gen Camaro by outselling it by over 4 to one. Camaro's been dead for 5 years last month, not 1 has rolled off the assembly line for years. Certain people in General Motors had to go under the radar, play politics, and spend years and years (roughly 10 years in all), meanwhile, Mustang has been selling without a skip or hickup ever since.....

....... yet they think of Mustang as an inferior car. :blahblah: :nuts: :lol:





Time for a little bit of blunt reality guys.

First off, to paraphrase a line from "Fight Club": "You aren't a unique & special flower".

High horsepower numbers, and off the charts performance numbers aren't going to sell cars, guarantee it's existance, or even appeal to performance buyers. Only the hardcore people are impressed by those raw numbers, and quite frankly, there really isn't enough of you to buy a good sized house, let alone dictate that a car needs to have particular horsepower number to be successful.

Buyers... even performance oriented buyers... have a certain "seat of the pants" performance they want.

It may surprise many of you that the current Mustang GT's 0-60 time of 5.1 seconds (Motor Trend) and the LS1 Camaro's 0-60 time of 5.2 seconds (also from Motor Trend), and the Mustang GT's 1/4 mile time of 13.5 at 103 versus LS1 Camaro's 13.8 at 107 (again both from Motor Trend) isn't based on the strict horsepower numbers. Any stock to stock test using the same test conditions and methods consistantly puts the current GT Mustang on par or marginally quicker than the LS1 Camaro.

Sure, Camaro has better high end performance (where it's higher horsepower numbers come into play). But to call the Mustang slow and the LS1 fast while the current Mustang GT at least equals and even edges it out in 99.99% of the types of "Street Grand Prixs" isn't accurate.

It's bad enough that people still can't understand that even the performance buying public (in the real world, not a Camaro enthusiast site) aren't obsessed by pure numbers as many here are...and to a degree, I'll include myself. It's even pathetic that even though Camaro is dead & has been for years, they still point to it as what a Mustang should be. But what really is even more pittyful (or depending on your point of view, is a hoot) are the people calling the current Mustang GT "slow" simply looking at only the horsepower numbers.

These same people will slit their own throats if they could no longer deny that the current stock 300 horse Mustang will match or edge out a stock 330+ horse LS1 Camaro.

But then, look at the reactions I got when I 1st posted that the upcoming '03 supercharged Cobras would hand LS1 F-bodies their lunch.

If I may be so bold; I think some of you are missing the point.

Lot’s and lot’s of people buy the Mustang, and especially “special editions” like this for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with “performance”…the performance capabilities of most Mustangs, especially the GT and editions with the same performance level of the GT, are more than enough for most people and more than most people will ever use.

Not everything has to belch flames, lay rubber in the first four gears and do a quarter-mile in less than 12 seconds to be desirable.

Let’s not forget that Ford, even for all its troubles, has found a way to keep the Mustang alive and selling while Camaro/Firebird sales dwindled and finaly went on “hiatus” - GM would do well to be as successful with the Fifth-gen as Ford has been with the latest generation of Mustang.

When you consider that any limited edition Mustang will see $15k plus dealer markup regardless of content, it would be nice if Ford would add a little more meat & potatoes to the package. I think everyone can agree on that.

When you consider that any limited edition Mustang will see $15k plus dealer markup regardless of content, it would be nice if Ford would add a little more meat & potatoes to the package. I think everyone can agree on that.
As a performance enthusiast I'd say yes, I can agree.

As business man I say hell no I don't agree. If the customer is already willing to pay the price, why shoudl Ford offer more for the money and reduce its profit margin?

It would be a nice thing to do but it makes no sense at all for a company that is struggling for its survival.

Will there ever be a day when the GT can match, just match the performance output of the antiquated LS1. Is 345-350 HP that hard for Ford to hit?
[This post is intended with light humor and exaggerations to promote levity and smiles for the reader. many :) 's are implied]

Gee, I dunno. That IS really embarrasing when you think about it.:o

Will there ever be a rebadged Camaro offered to the general public by a GM-supplier that will put down 650 advertised and warrantied horsepower?

OK - how about 725hp with no warranty?!?!

OK. So the SuperSnake statement above was not a good choice to use.
Put your stock LS1 up against any stock 03 Cobras lately?
I'd stick to picking on the base GTs - in all fairness - as you did in the quote above.

You see, the error of your ways is that you don't understand that MAYBE Ford was not the one who made the marketing mistake.
MAYBE GM should not have put a 340hp engine in it's BASE V8 Camaro?
It seems to me you think that Ford's BASE V8 should be as good as the base GM offering of 10 years ago... you know, the one that didn't sell.
Ford disagrees - and has disagreed for almost 29 years.
Ford wants a base V8 to be just that - a BASE V8.
Liveable, durable, in a car that is easy to drive and use on a daily basis, etc.

If after reading in this forum for the last 10 years (d@mn you been coming here a long time!), you don't have a grasp on that, you need help.
LIKEWISE, if you have not seen some of the Ford engine programs we have discussed here in this very forum that were tested and muled in Mustangs (like the sic V-10 mod motor, the 427 concept, the early BOSS engines, and even recent Hurricane and TwinForce engines) well, you again need help. Ford could put one of any number of engines into the Mustang and make sick figures if they chose to, but obviously they don't. Again, IT'S MARKETING. They give the masses what they ask for, and offer the go-fast goodies to those who want to persue it on their own.
IT WORKS... THERE'S PROOF.

I just wanted you to realize that Ford has no intention of making a base GT anything other than exactly that - a BASE GT.
But it's not like Ford can't make an engine that puts out over 345 horses and fit it into a Mustang Chassis.

Now - into the future about 24 months... I sincerely hope that the new Camaro has a base V8 that is within 10 hp more-or-less of the Mustang. I hope it eats 87 octane regardless of how agressive you drive it. I hope it has creature comfort and is liveable on a daily basis. And honestly, I hope you are extremely pizzed-off that it does not boast 450hp and 12-sec timeslips, because I personally want to see the car be around for the next 20 years.
Should your limited-edition, fly-weight, Z/28 come along with a 450hp track-pack... well then, NOW we are talking!!!
Should the Camaro SS come out in a 5000-unit run, offering interior upgrades, a 20-30hp kick over the base RS unit, new versions of the Cragar SS rims, a "better" brake caliper and pad, etc.... well D@MN-BIPPY!:cool:

Seewhadimean? Its marketing, dude... marketing.
It has NOTHING to do with what a company is capable of making on a dyno. :no:

When you consider that any limited edition Mustang will see $15k plus dealer markup regardless of content, it would be nice if Ford would add a little more meat & potatoes to the package. I think everyone can agree on that.

I'm not sure you actually thought about what you're posting before you posted this because there's no logic whatsoever to what you said.

Here's why.

Every car company creates a package, and prices it at what they feel that car is worth in the market.

Dealers mark up cars based on everything from demand to their own selfish greed.

Finally you add more goodies, it's going to cost more. If it cost more, and dealers still add markups, then you have simply made a car more expensive without doing anything.

Mustang Shelby GT has more goodies. And a high dealer markup.
Shelby GT500 certainly has more goodies.... and a higher dealer markup.
Even Solstices ran with high dealer markups. GTO was a poster child of dealer markups.

The only cure for dealer markups is

1. Policing and pressure from the company.
2. Sufficient supply.

The last Mustang Cobras were sold at sticker, part the "encouragement" for the privilege to sell SVT vehicles.

The Bullitt Mustang isn't a Shelby.

If you want meat & potatoes, go to Sizzler.

When you consider that any limited edition Mustang will see $15k plus dealer markup regardless of content, it would be nice if Ford would add a little more meat & potatoes to the package. I think everyone can agree on that.

'04 Mach 1's were selling for MSRP or even less at dealership s that had several of them.

'01 Bullitt buyers were not screaming of rape either.

Seems that some get dealer-rape, some don't.
Exclusivity and heritage have more to do with it than anything IMO.
Dealers won't get it if the public doesn't want to pay it.


:shrug:

....

Wow.


Spoken like a true, out of touch, "I don't comprehend anything that doesn't create lots more horsepower despite other many upgrades"*, Camaro enthusiast.

* meant as a poke in the ribs, not a malicious comment.

You are trying to make this too black and white. I don't think it sucks because it's a Mustang. I think it's content sucks for what you are going to pay over a GT. Guess that is why I don't drive an SS.


Any trained monkey can create a engine that will "match the performance output of the antiquated LS1".

Better let Ford know that.







The entire Future vehicle section Mustang crew has managed to take up the entire page 3 with like 5 posts. Impressive. Why do you guys bother trying to convince a bunch of enthusiasts this is a sweet car? It is going to sell fine enough to the old heads out there. 312hp? This car does little to excite. Sometimes it isn't about Mustang vs Camaro guys. Sometimes a car is just underwhelming. If you like the Bullitt, fine, buy one. When I want something, seldom do I let someone talk me out of it for their reasons. Just realize that writing posts with 9 paragraphs in each one is excessive. I really didn't bother to read too much on this page, because it is just too much fanboy conjecture.

....
Those who know me know that there are very few people around who like to go fast (and routinely does on tracks and autocross courses) more than I do.

That said, anyone who drives the way you’ve described yourself is an accident begging for a place to happen; when it does I truly hope you don’t take anyone with you.

“Driving like a maniac” is not something to be proud of or aspire to.

Wow.
The entire Future vehicle section Mustang crew has managed to take up the entire page 3 with like 5 posts. Impressive. Why do you guys bother trying to convince a bunch of enthusiasts this is a sweet car? It is going to sell fine enough to the old heads out there. 312hp? This car does little to excite. Sometimes it isn't about Mustang vs Camaro guys. Sometimes a car is just underwhelming. If you like the Bullitt, fine, buy one. When I want something, seldom do I let someone talk me out of it for their reasons. Just realize that writing posts with 9 paragraphs in each one is excessive. I really didn't bother to read too much on this page, because it is just too much fanboy conjecture.

Convince us? I was belittled for not seeing it "their" way in the first place, never mind being convinced. This car will cost you $20k over a garden-variety GT when it's all said & done (at least it will around here), and have very little in the way of actual hardware upgrades. No, some of us simply do not "get it" when it comes to these mostly show-not much go packages and that is apparantly quite offensive to "some".

It may surprise many of you that the current Mustang GT's 0-60 time of 5.1 seconds (Motor Trend) and the LS1 Camaro's 0-60 time of 5.2 seconds (also from Motor Trend), and the Mustang GT's 1/4 mile time of 13.5 at 103 versus LS1 Camaro's 13.8 at 107 (again both from Motor Trend) isn't based on the strict horsepower numbers. Any stock to stock test using the same test conditions and methods consistantly puts the current GT Mustang on par or marginally quicker than the LS1 Camaro.

I have no issues with most of your post, but this paragraph - and especially the last line in bold - is just plain wrong. Actually, its just plain backwards. While it is certainly possible that Motor Trend got a better time out of a particular new GT than they did out of a particular LS1 Camaro, on average, the LS1 Camaro is at least "marginally quicker" than a 2005-2007 GT. If you raced a few other mags (or perhaps more issues of the same one), you would likely discover this. Better yet, visit a drag strip or three.

Just the fact that a new Bullitt Mustang gathers 4 pages of posts on this site tells you no matter how boring you might think the package is, it probably isn't to the general population. :)

And about the LS1 to '05-'07 GT comparisons, I would have to agree with Bob. Hard to tell what kind of testing conditions, etc. etc. were used with vehicles tested several years apart, even if by the same magazine.

I agree that the new GTs are not quite as quick as an LS1. It could very well be a drivers race on the street though.

Back to the matter at hand... The new Bullitt will sell quickly, and probably appeal to a fairly large audience. In fact, I looked at Bullitts when I was replacing my 2000 Firebird, even though for the most part I wouldn't consider myself a Mustang guy. In the end though I ended up with a car that is probably more rare :)

Will there ever be a day when the GT can match, just match the performance output of the antiquated LS1. Is 345-350 HP that hard for Ford to hit?

Yeah, when they put a 5.4 three valve in there - it'll be easy.

Those who know me know that there are very few people around who like to go fast (and routinely does on tracks and autocross courses) more than I do.

That said, anyone who drives the way you’ve described yourself is an accident begging for a place to happen; when it does I truly hope you don’t take anyone with you.

“Driving like a maniac” is not something to be proud of or aspire to.


Well I prefer aggressive, but I suppose there is a fine line between maniac and aggresive, and I admit, I've been in one accident that was partly my fault in about 20 years of drving (live and learn), otherwise I've never had a problem.

I have no issues with most of your post, but this paragraph - and especially the last line in bold - is just plain wrong. Actually, its just plain backwards. While it is certainly possible that Motor Trend got a better time out of a particular new GT than they did out of a particular LS1 Camaro, on average, the LS1 Camaro is at least "marginally quicker" than a 2005-2007 GT. If you raced a few other mags (or perhaps more issues of the same one), you would likely discover this. Better yet, visit a drag strip or three.

Seems to me the average LS1 powered car was/is about .5 to .75 seconds quicker than the current GT, which seems to run in the mid 13's well driven (13.54 is about the fastest stock GT time I've read, seen 13.65).

Why do you guys bother trying to convince a bunch of enthusiasts this is a sweet car?

Because we love CARS, as well as land missiles - and we give each one it's props when it deserves them.

Trying to teach others the benefits of the same.
Want Camaro to share in the success by lessons-learned.
Good things can happen when you open your mind to new ideas.

Kept it short, just for you.:thumb:

G

This car will cost you $20k over a garden-variety GT when it's all said & done (at least it will around here), and have very little in the way of actual hardware upgrades.

Holy crap... how do you figure this?!?! $20k?!?!
Even GT500's are only fetching $10-15k over MSRP and it's a far-more collectible car, much less the performance increase.

$10k over a $45k is roughly a 22% premium (current GT500).
A "garden-variety" GT could be $28k, so a $20K premium is nearly 72% of the base price. I doubt seriously if anyone will pay nearly double the MSRP for these. If they do, then they need to be separated from their money for other reasons than the car's desireability.;)

I have no doubt there will be some dealer rape in the beginning, but it should not be anywhere near what you are thinking - especially when there are GT/CS cars, Shelby GTs, GT500s, Hertz cars, Saleens, Roushes, Steedas, and a slew of other "collectibles" sitting all around it on the dealer's lot.

The landscape is SO much different than it was back in 2001... and the gouging wasn't attrocious even then.
Maybe WERM could discuss his buying situation from 2001 for some perspective?

Bottom-line, I think you are way out there with your concept of what these cars will bring money-wise, and you are missing the intended purpose of the car. Z284ever absolutely NAILED it with his post #35 (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4887227&postcount=35).
There is a passion that some people have to a vehicle (especially one with a history and longevity) that has nothing to do with it's 1/4-mile times.
This is an offering by Ford to those people... plain and simple.

Well I prefer aggressive, but I suppose there is a fine line between maniac and aggresive, and I admit, I've been in one accident that was partly my fault in about 20 years of drving (live and learn), otherwise I've never had a problem.
I was only quoting you when I used the word "maniac", after all.

...

If you assume a $5-8k package price for this new Bullitt, add in about that much in "market adjustment", and then factor in the fact that a plain-jane GT can now be had for a couple or three thousand discount under MSRP you're looking at a de-facto price difference that could reach $20k although admittedly this is the high end applicable to those who just have to be the first one on the block to have one.

In the ATL area garden cariety GT's were still getting market adjustments well into MY 06 so while I am being speculative (which I thought would go without saying since we don't even have pricing at this point) I am not just talking out of my ass. You can compare it to the '99 Bullitt all you want but that body style GT saw discounts from day one and was never as hot or desirable a car as the '05 & up.

If this is not the case where you are or elsewhere then I will definately be buying a 1-way plane ticket and taking my business out of state when I buy my next car.

If you assume a $5-8k package price for this new Bullitt, add in about that much in "market adjustment", and then factor in the fact that a plain-jane GT can now be had for a couple or three thousand discount under MSRP you're looking at a de-facto price difference that could reach $20k although admittedly this is the high end applicable to those who just have to be the first one on the block to have one.

In the ATL area garden cariety GT's were still getting market adjustments well into MY 06 so while I am being speculative (which I thought would go without saying since we don't even have pricing at this point) I am not just talking out of my ass. You can compare it to the '99 Bullitt all you want but that body style GT saw discounts from day one and was never as hot or desirable a car as the '05 & up.

If this is not the case where you are or elsewhere then I will definately be buying a 1-way plane ticket and taking my business out of state when I buy my next car.

Not sure you could push the price to $8k over a GT from internet speculation. :no:
WERM posted in a previous post that his reference was about $1500 over a loaded GT.
If a loaded GT hits $30k, and we have a $2k premium for the Bullitt package, we're at $32k, and I am going on the high side with the $30k and the $2k because loaded GTs are realy stickering below $30k here, and that is before any discounts or incentives.

I am pretty into the Mustang market - both as a collector and a hobbyist, and it is my OPINION that these cars will not fetch the kind of dealer rape that we have seen on GTOs, GT500s, and such. I am certainly not saying it won't be tried by someone, but most of the cars will go for a few grand over a premium GT.

Case-in-point - the California Special. It's been an SE out for over a year now... limited numbers, limited distribution, yet no dealer rape right now and really none for the last 9 months. The Bullitt should be no different IMO.

But hardly anyone knows or cares about the "California Special." I do agree though that the Bullitt will likely be very affordable for the people that will want to buy it.

Can't wait to see how much more my local ford dealer will charge for that. They are already asking $48,000 for a Shelby GT.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w81/rsztalon/mustangshelby5.jpg

That's what the sticker said on this Shelby GT I saw this weekend.

I'm sure the Bullitt will be a cool looking car, but green isn't my color and the price they will ask for that car will make a regular Mustang GT seem like a bargain.

I do like the fact that Ford keeps making special editions of their cars. Too bad they are becoming hard to afford, because of dealership markups.

I do like the fact that Ford keeps making special editions of their cars. Too bad they are becoming hard to afford, because of dealership markups.

Chrysler and Chevy will go the same route with special editions on the Challenger and Camaro, and I bet the dealers will mark them up just the same way.

I was only quoting you when I used the word "maniac", after all.


Lol, well I suppose its a subjective term. I had a school teacher that was scared to death to drive anything approaching 75mph when speed limits used to be that high, she thought the double nickle was a godsend, or on the other hand, I've watched a late model 7 series pass me so fast on that stretch of highway that I figured he had to at least be going 120-130 mph (people average 70 to 80 mph), I had to pull into the right lane again after said BMW passed because his buddy was going substantially faster in a clapped out 90's something acura legend. Thats a pair of maniacs to me, along with tractor trailers going 80+ in the left lane, or pick-up trucks going near or at 100 (titans and tundras seem to be the most prevalent). People who put S rated tires on thier LS1 powered F-bodies scare the crap out of me. However, my intent wasn't to boast about a 30 mile trip to work, it was to point out that driven aggresively, a GT with its yestertech 5 speed transmission and brick like aerodynamics can still knock down decent mileage and driven frugally can do pretty good

I'm on a Fbody fan site, and a nobody, I lack the credentials of somebody like say, Bob, who's cedibility when it comes to racing mustangs certainly carries some weight when he says they can do XX.XX in the quarter. Ergo, I had to give a pretty clear example of what I figure is driven aggressively so people can have some idea of comparison or get an idea of what the car is doing when it gets 21+ mpg. Hell the last time I drag raced the car, I burned half a tank of gas and had a half a tank left and in something like 16 passes (you know full throttle stuff) where I figured I'd burn at least a quarter of a tank, the needle barely moved at all.

I have no issues with most of your post, but this paragraph - and especially the last line in bold - is just plain wrong. Actually, its just plain backwards. While it is certainly possible that Motor Trend got a better time out of a particular new GT than they did out of a particular LS1 Camaro, on average, the LS1 Camaro is at least "marginally quicker" than a 2005-2007 GT. If you raced a few other mags (or perhaps more issues of the same one), you would likely discover this. Better yet, visit a drag strip or three.

I just take it in stride nowadays, but a lot of the info Guy seems to relate on the 4th gen is either altered or wrong. Not worth arguing about it anymore; it goes nowhere, and usually ends with a huge post by Guy with tons of smilies, bold text everywhere, and the word probably butchered over and over again.

Because we love CARS, as well as land missiles - and we give each one it's props when it deserves them.

Trying to teach others the benefits of the same.
Want Camaro to share in the success by lessons-learned.
Good things can happen when you open your mind to new ideas.

Kept it short, just for you.:thumb:

G

Fair enough. Like I stated, it isn't about Mustangs sucking, its about being told why a certain car is cool, even if I don't think it is, which seems to happen quite often on this board. I haven't been stricken with desire for any S197 Mustang, but I was (and still am) a big fan of the SN95 Mach 1s and Cobras. I hope the 5th gen turns out well, because I am not a blind Camaro fan, and if it sucks I won't force myself to like it.

Besides, I don't know too many fbody guys that won't give props to a Ford when it is fast, i.e. the Terminators.

Can't wait to see how much more my local ford dealer will charge for that. They are already asking $48,000 for a Shelby GT.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w81/rsztalon/mustangshelby5.jpg

That's what the sticker said on this Shelby GT I saw this weekend.

I'm sure the Bullitt will be a cool looking car, but green isn't my color and the price they will ask for that car will make a regular Mustang GT seem like a bargain.

I do like the fact that Ford keeps making special editions of their cars. Too bad they are becoming hard to afford, because of dealership markups.

I can't imagine they are marking them up like that. When I got my Bullitt, I got employee pricing no problem. It was Michigan, but still...

If people will buy them marked up, then dealers will mark them up. No doubt, somewhere dealers are going to be overly malicious with the gouging.

If people will buy them marked up, then dealers will mark them up. No doubt, somewhere dealers are going to be overly malicious with the gouging.

That Shelby GT (which I think is a great looking car) has been sitting on that lot for over 3 weeks. Seems like most of the buyers in my area aren't taking the bait.

Fair enough. Like I stated, it isn't about Mustangs sucking, its about being told why a certain car is cool, even if I don't think it is, which seems to happen quite often on this board. I haven't been stricken with desire for any S197 Mustang, but I was (and still am) a big fan of the SN95 Mach 1s and Cobras. I hope the 5th gen turns out well, because I am not a blind Camaro fan, and if it sucks I won't force myself to like it.
True... it isn't about Mustangs sucking... it's about a company finding what sells - be it fast, slow, sideways, perverse, or upside-down. It's the smarter person who can tell when they have struck a good lick or when they are putting out a dud before it even hits the showroom.


Besides, I don't know too many fbody guys that won't give props to a Ford when it is fast, i.e. the Terminators.
First - I give you a :bow:.
Second - You just said on your own... exactly... what I have been trying to say myself. F-bod guys (on this board especially, but in person and elsewhere too) seem to be infatuated with "fast". If it's not fast, it struggles to get props, regardless of what else it does right.

I personally love a fast ride as much as anyone else. I hand out props all day long to the quick ones. Most memorable ride in the last 5 years for me came in a race-prepped Z06 on a road course - it simply beat me like a punching bag, even though I was strapped into a Simpson seat with a 6-pt racing harness. But even though I can write a page on the awesome properties of that Z06, I can also turn around and write a page on ANY Mach 1, Z/28, or even the old '83 Berlinetta I rode in during High School, or the 93 4-cyl convertible my family rides in on Sundays to go get ice cream. EACH one offered something unique and "cool" to me in some way.

I've got a 91 SSP Mustang (Florida HP) that is not the fastest thing on the road - there are many quicker cars to be sure - BUT, I could write 2 pages about how INSANELY FUN that car is to drive. It's an incredibly pleasing car to own and drive just like it is - probably the best value and my personal favorite by far right now.

I guess my point is that you are really missing out on lots of fun and commraderie by only being passionate about speed. There are some incredibly cool cars from many manufacturers that are not supersonic, but they exude style, panache, something different/special, and some just have a "cool factor" in their presence that can't be explained.

It's taken me 20 years of driving everything to appreciate the broader spectrum, and I find it to be very rewarding to do so now.:thumb:

That Shelby GT (which I think is a great looking car) has been sitting on that lot for over 3 weeks. Seems like most of the buyers in my area aren't taking the bait.

AND I HOPE THEY DON'T!!!

Not many average buyers know that you can order your Shelby GT directly from Shelby American and pay their price with no markups. It's the average Joe that goes to a dealer with no knowledge of what he/she may be buying that is getting taken to the cleaners. Nice when the car goes through final assembly in someone else's plant, huh?

What peeves me is that I can do that with the Shelby GT and save my cash, but if I want a GT500... I'm SOL. The GT500 has to be ordered through a Ford dealer and it is built in the AutoAlliance plant, delivered through Ford channels to the dealer, and you have no opportunity to nix the markup.:mad:
Same for the GT500KR models too. Double-:mad:

I'm not a Mustang fan, but I sure wish the Camaro had the following/mystique of the Mustang. This car will sell well, and being a special edition Mustang will probably end up as a collector's item. I often wonder if this whole Camaro/Mustang thing would be reversed if the Camaro was the first pony car made, and the Mustang followed it. Would the Camaro have the huge amount of fanatics like the Mustang, and would the Mustang now be on hiatus? Is it possible, after all these years, for GM to build up the Camaro mystique so it's on par with Mustang? It isn't about horsepower, as the Mustang has outsold the Camaro when out-performed by it. How can GM get the kind of following for the Camaro that the Mustang has?

I'm not a Mustang fan, but I sure wish the Camaro had the following/mystique of the Mustang. This car will sell well, and being a special edition Mustang will probably end up as a collector's item. I often wonder if this whole Camaro/Mustang thing would be reversed if the Camaro was the first pony car made, and the Mustang followed it. Would the Camaro have the huge amount of fanatics like the Mustang, and would the Mustang now be on hiatus? Is it possible, after all these years, for GM to build up the Camaro mystique so it's on par with Mustang? It isn't about horsepower, as the Mustang has outsold the Camaro when out-performed by it. How can GM get the kind of following for the Camaro that the Mustang has?


Interesting post.

I too, wish that Camaro had the same "following/mystique" as the Mustang. Camaro once had it though. But my personal opinion (and one which I'm willing to defend), is that the 4th gen sucked that critical aspect out of the experience for most people - me being one.

As far as getting that sort of following back for Camaro....

It's going to require doing everything right, or at least most things. It's going to require well differentiated models which hit bullseyes on their respective targets. It's going to require a car with APPEAL, not just to a small group of single track enthusiasts, but to a broad base of buyers.

I just take it in stride nowadays, but a lot of the info Guy seems to relate on the 4th gen is either altered or wrong. Not worth arguing about it anymore; it goes nowhere, and usually ends with a huge post by Guy with tons of smilies, bold text everywhere, and the word probably butchered over and over again.

Pretty aggressive post directed this way, Russ.

So.... how many 4th gens have you owned?

My "altered" or "wrong" information on the 4th gen is comes from the three 4th gen Camaros I've owned (a '93, a '97, and an '02), the one my sister owns (a '96), others I've spoken with in person when I happen to come across a 4th gen owner on the street, a friend of mine up in Sacremento at the CHP ground transportation office (commonly refered to as their garage), members on this site who have owned 4th gens, as well as magazine tests which run stock and unaltered new models is consistant conditions.

Even Charlie's post above mine isn't exactly fawning praise of the 4th gen. Even though we're on a Camaro site, he is by no means part of a small number.


If you have a point of contention with anything I've posted on the 4th gen, then bring it up, roll the dice and take your chances.

Just but be sure you have something to back it up. ;)

(*no huge post, minimal bold text, and only one smilely.)


First - I give you a :bow:.
Second - You just said on your own... exactly... what I have been trying to say myself. F-bod guys (on this board especially, but in person and elsewhere too) seem to be infatuated with "fast". If it's not fast, it struggles to get props, regardless of what else it does right.

I personally love a fast ride as much as anyone else. I hand out props all day long to the quick ones. Most memorable ride in the last 5 years for me came in a race-prepped Z06 on a road course - it simply beat me like a punching bag, even though I was strapped into a Simpson seat with a 6-pt racing harness. But even though I can write a page on the awesome properties of that Z06, I can also turn around and write a page on ANY Mach 1, Z/28, or even the old '83 Berlinetta I rode in during High School, or the 93 4-cyl convertible my family rides in on Sundays to go get ice cream. EACH one offered something unique and "cool" to me in some way.

I've got a 91 SSP Mustang (Florida HP) that is not the fastest thing on the road - there are many quicker cars to be sure - BUT, I could write 2 pages about how INSANELY FUN that car is to drive. It's an incredibly pleasing car to own and drive just like it is - probably the best value and my personal favorite by far right now.

I guess my point is that you are really missing out on lots of fun and commraderie by only being passionate about speed. There are some incredibly cool cars from many manufacturers that are not supersonic, but they exude style, panache, something different/special, and some just have a "cool factor" in their presence that can't be explained.

It's taken me 20 years of driving everything to appreciate the broader spectrum, and I find it to be very rewarding to do so now.:thumb:

:bow: :bow: :bow: You have just stated in this post, everything that I've been trying to (evidently, unsuccessfully).

Everything isn't about having the highest horsepower numbers. It doesn't equate to more fun, it doesn't mean higher technology, it doesn't make a better or "cool" car.

Only real car enthusiasts can appriciate that. Sure, everyone has their favorites. But those that mindlessly bash other very good cars based on exaggerated and imagined flaws & baseless information isn't doing themselves any favors.

Everything isn't about having the highest horsepower numbers. It doesn't equate to more fun, it doesn't mean higher technology, it doesn't make a better or "cool" car.

Only real car enthusiasts can appreciate that. Sure, everyone has their favorites. But those that mindlessly bash other very good cars based on exaggerated and imagined flaws & baseless information isn't doing themselves any favors.I agree with this 100%. If you are objective it should be clear why the Mustang is successful. Doesn't mean you necessarily have to like it though ;)

The LS1 cars were and still are faster than new GTs stock for stock though. It may be a drivers race in many occasions, but if you tested a group of each with the same or similar drivers on the same track, the LS1 Firebird or Camaro would almost certainly have statistically significant advantages in ET and trap speed over the Mustang.

But my personal opinion (and one which I'm willing to defend), is that the 4th gen sucked that critical aspect out of the experience for most people - me being one.

I know why you didn't like the 4th Gen, and the reasons are well-documented, but I am curious as to what the 4th Gen did that "sucked the mystique" out of Camaro, other than you just didn't like the size/styling/SS package. "Mystique" isn't exactly a quantifiable thing, and is made up solely of your opinion vs. mine, so we could go round-and-round all day. Personally, I think Camaro's performance "mystique" was restored with the introduction of the 1993 LT1 Z28. I realize a lot of things make up overall "mystique" but that's a biggie. :shrug:

Maybe I'm a bit cranky today, and no offense meant to you Charlie, but I grow tired of the 4th Gen being blamed for every last thing of what "went wrong" with the Camaro brand.

But I grow tired of the 4th Gen being blamed for every last thing of what "went wrong" with the Camaro brand.

I have often wondered what was so bad about the 4th Gens... :shrug:

I know why you didn't like the 4th Gen, and the reasons are well-documented, but I am curious as to what the 4th Gen did that "sucked the mystique" out of Camaro, other than you just didn't like the size/styling/SS package. "Mystique" isn't exactly a quantifiable thing, and is made up solely of your opinion vs. mine, so we could go round-and-round all day. Personally, I think Camaro's performance "mystique" was restored with the introduction of the 1993 LT1 Z28. I realize a lot of things make up overall "mystique" but that's a biggie. :shrug:

Maybe I'm a bit cranky today, and no offense meant to you Charlie, but I grow tired of the 4th Gen being blamed for every last thing of what "went wrong" with the Camaro brand.

No offence taken, Mark.

You're right, mystique is not a very quantifiable thing, but you know it when you see or feel it. We can say however, that it is a compelling aura which enhances value in a product.

Mustang had it in it's SVT Cobra, Bullitt, Mach 1 and I believe currently has it in the Shelby GT, etc.

My premise is that the 4th gen lacked this quality completely. Completely.

Case and point the '93 Z/28: it would not have required a marketing genius to spin great, big, fat, steaming heaps of mystique out of this mark. Instead, we got a car virtually indiscernable from the base car, essentially flushing all opportunities for mystique down the crapper. Yeah, the LT1 was quick - but in the final analysis - who cared? No one. That quickness wasn't properly wrapped in a package which was appealing, which was identifiable, which was marketable - and which had any mystique. In 1993 we had entered the world of the generic Camaro. And "generic" and "Camaro" are two words which to me, are completely incompatible.

We could go on and on about all of the 4th gen issues we've previously discussed ad nauseam here - for years. Stale styling, poor model differentiation, ugly wheels, horrendous interiors, etc., etc.

But in the end, what is undeniable is this --- after a couple of decent sales years, the 4th gen killed ALL interest which the general populace ALWAYS harbored for the Camaro.

Pretty aggressive post directed this way, Russ.

So.... how many 4th gens have you owned?

My "altered" or "wrong" information on the 4th gen is comes from the three 4th gen Camaros I've owned (a '93, a '97, and an '02), the one my sister owns (a '96), others I've spoken with in person when I happen to come across a 4th gen owner on the street, a friend of mine up in Sacremento at the CHP ground transportation office (commonly refered to as their garage), members on this site who have owned 4th gens, as well as magazine tests which run stock and unaltered new models is consistant conditions.

Even Charlie's post above mine isn't exactly fawning praise of the 4th gen. Even though we're on a Camaro site, he is by no means part of a small number.


If you have a point of contention with anything I've posted on the 4th gen, then bring it up, roll the dice and take your chances.

I have only owned one 4th gen, but I have been to a number of fbody meets, have a number of friends with fbodies, and have gone to school with guys who have fbodies. I have seen multiple fbodies dynoed, weighed, etc. Last time I "rolled the dice" and spent quite a while find threads a linking them, you all but ignored them. Oh well. I am not trying to drag this thread through the mud by turning it into a you versus me 4th gen thread, so take it as you will. I doubt JasonD likes playing babysitter.

(*you sarcasm is not lost on me, but the effort is appreciated regardless).

T
First - I give you a :bow:.
Second - You just said on your own... exactly... what I have been trying to say myself. F-bod guys (on this board especially, but in person and elsewhere too) seem to be infatuated with "fast". If it's not fast, it struggles to get props, regardless of what else it does right.

Well, when I wrote fbody guys, I didn't mean everyone with an fbody. I meant the performance crowd. In the same way that if I wrote a Mustang guy, I mean a Mustang enthusiast, not some joe shmoe who has a Mustang. Like I said, in the fbody performance crowd, you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't at least give props to the 03/04 Cobras.


I had a Mustang. I did the whole Mustang thing. I used to be a regular over at Stangnet, and attend some of the meets over there. I can appreciate a Mustang, but it gets pretty old on this site when someone posts something like the Shelby GT; inevitably some people say they don't like it (in their own words), and then the Ford faithful come on here and tell everyone why it is a great car, when it might not be. Whatever fills Ford's bottom line is good for Ford, but that doesn't make it a great product.

Mustang had it in it's SVT Cobra, Bullitt, Mach 1 and I believe currently has it in the Shelby GT, etc.

"Special editions", I would humbly point out, has never been a hallmark of Camaro. Unless you count IROC-Z, Berlinetta and the 1st Gen Copo/Baldwin cars. Then again, I could thrown in SLP SS and Berger 4th Gens.

Instead, we got a car virtually indiscernable from the base car

GM screwed that up in part because people wanted their V6 car to look like the V8 version. If I remember correctly you could order up a V6 Camaro during the 3rd Gen years that almost exactly resembled its Z28 counterpart...and they sold very well. I believe that was Chevy's logic. So, a gross miscalculation of the market I suppose.

That quickness wasn't properly wrapped in a package which was appealing, which was identifiable, which was marketable - and which had any mystique. In 1993 we had entered the world of the generic Camaro. And "generic" and "Camaro" are two words which to me, are completely incompatible.

That seems funny to me, because the LT1 cars resembled rocket ships.....if anything, the criticism of the "land-missle" 4th Gen was that it was too over-the-top.

Well, this thread was about the Bullitt so it's better to move back on topic.

GM screwed that up in part because people wanted their V6 car to look like the V8 version. If I remember correctly you could order up a V6 Camaro during the 3rd Gen years that almost exactly resembled its Z28 counterpart...and they sold very well. I believe that was Chevy's logic. So, a gross miscalculation of the market I suppose.

Yeah, they screwed up big time if you ask me. Although, I get the concept, as validated by the 3rd gen, that only works if you dress up the lower model to better resemble the higher model. Dumbing down the higher model to match the lower model, won't give the same effect. And before someone says: "hey, how do you know that they didn't gussy up the V6 to match the Z/28 on the 4th gen" - well, that's just hard to wrap my :tired: head around.



That seems funny to me, because the LT1 cars resembled rocket ships.....if anything, the criticism of the "land-missle" 4th Gen was that it was too over-the-top.

Well, this thread was about the Bullitt so it's better to move back on topic.

I guess that's where we can have an honest difference of opinion. For me, the 4th gen's execution seemed extremely generic. It's color palate, it's wheel (non)choices, it's lack of model differentiation - all of that. The fact that it came with a pointy nose and steeply raked windshield wasn't enough to make it up to me.

I agree with respect to the Camaro. The 93-97 was pretty much just a wedge with some wheels. Not that it was unattractive, just that it wasn't really very exciting. The Catfish makeover gave it a little more character, but the only ones that were really interesting to look at were the base cars and Zs with the appearance package, and the SS's.

The Firebirds had some character though :)

[QUOTE=georgejetson;4884073]That'll really give those 6.1 Challengers something to worry about...[/QUOTE

The Bullit won't give those challengers anything to worry about until those Challengers try to go into a turn, that's what the GT500 is for and if the 6.1 4200lb boat is still causin a problem ,then deal with the Shelby Super Snake which will hand the new challenger it's a%^. And Saleen, Roush, Steeda are just a few other high performance Mustangs worthy of showing the new Challenger their a&* end. OH WOW a 6.1 challenger im sure Ford is shaking in it's boots. The car ain't even on the road yet. Bring the challenger out to the strip,roadcourse heck even the street with it's bada%^ 6.1 hemi us 8 million plus fellow Mustangers will be waitin.

By the time the 6.1 Challenger comes out to play the S197 Mustang will be in it's 4th year and Ford will have produced over 600,000 new stangs so im sure they care if the new challenger may take a bite out of the HUGE sales advantage they've had for the past 40 plus years with its big bad HEMI.

The new Challenger will be nothing more than a MOPAR fans dream come true. A collector car and thats it. The 2009 Mustang GT from factory may be slower then the new 2009 Challenger 6.1 when it shows up, but the reality is Mustang has been here for 45 plus years and has stayed here not because it'll melt tires thru 3rd and eat the quarter in under 12, the Mustang has a LARGE gathering of people who love the car for what it is. Mustang is more than being the fastest with the most power, it's always retained a style, a look, a feel, a sound, a heritage, great support among the aftermarket and a car more then ONE type of enthusist could relate to.

Btw isn't the new Challenger getting a 6.4 hemi? Oh and a year after the new Challenger pokes its dusty face outta the hole its been hiding in for the past 30 years, the 2010 Mustang will roll out completely revised with a 6.2 400 plus engine and new body/interior/chassis set up.
Life's rough for you when you have such a short history to come by.

Then if the the new Challenger some how makes it to 2012 , the next and completely new Mustang will be out.

I think the 93 Camaro was gorgeous. And I appreciated that they let the sheetmetal speak for itself after all the body packages as on the late 3rd gens. (Then again, I didn't buy one, so my opinion doesn't count for much ;) ) A great design, but I can see that maybe it was not aggressive enough for the market.

From 94 on, there were very few exterior visual cues that differentiate a Mustang GT (or Cobra, for that matter) from a Mustang V6. In that restpect, it was little different from Camaro or Firebird.

That'll really give those 6.1 Challengers something to worry about...

The Bullit won't give those challengers anything to worry about until those Challengers try to go into a turn,

[lots of blue oval kool-aid snipped]



Look, I like Mustangs too, but if you have to invoke aftermarket tuners to compete in this discussion, you've already lost. The Charger SRT does pretty well on a road course for a beast of its size; I'm feeling good about the smaller and lighter Challenger's chances.

And the Camaro's too, for that matter. Fact is, the GT -- the car people can actually buy without paying through the nose or coughing up their firstborn or waiting months and months -- isn't up to what Chrysler will be offering next spring and what GM will be offering in a little over a year. Ford will need to up its game. Will they?

From 94 on, there were very few exterior visual cues that differentiate a Mustang GT (or Cobra, for that matter) from a Mustang V6. In that restpect, it was little different from Camaro or Firebird.

Few but some. The V6, GT and Cobra were differentiated visually by different fascias, wheels, trim, spoilers, etc.

And the Camaro's too, for that matter. Fact is, the GT -- the car people can actually buy without paying through the nose or coughing up their firstborn or waiting months and months -- isn't up to what Chrysler will be offering next spring and what GM will be offering in a little over a year. Ford will need to up its game. Will they?
Later in the same thread... another "performance is everything post. :(

GT isn't up to these other cars in what way?
PERFORMANCE? OK - fair enough... you win.

Wanna talk PRICE?!?! I'll send you home in a plastic bag the battle would be so bloody. GT starts at $25k... what's the price of your choices?

Wanna talk MAINTENANCE?
Wanna talk UPKEEP?
Wanna talk DAILY LIVEABILITY?
Look at 87 octane fuel, tire prices, brake linings, and other regular maintenance/operating costs. Our NC Highway Patrol loves the Chargers they got, but are looking to reduce their count because of $800 in tires every few months, and fuel costs. It costs money to go fast.

You see, again, there is something other than performance that means a poop to most people with money to spend.

With regard to speaking about Ford needing "tuners", let's back up one tiny step and look at the GT500 in particular. That car is ordered by Ford dealers anywhere, it is 100% assembled on a production factory line where V6s, GTs, and even Mazdas are built right in front of and behind it. It goes on a rail car, gets trucked to the dealer, and you take delivery. It's NOTHING like a Saleen, Roush, SLP, or any other "tuner" that has the car in their shop for mods after it leaves the factory. In fact, the GT500 gets almost NO special attention even in the AAI plant - it goes down the line like any other car. It is supposed to be available to you and I for less than $50k, but dealer rape prevails - not my fault, your fault, or even Ford's fault - it's the dealers'.

Consider that, and rethink the comment about Ford needing "tuner cars" to keep up. Just because it has a Shelby badge on it does not mean it went to LA and was hand assembled by Shelby people.

Lastly, if I am able to walk onto any Ford dealer's lot and drive off in a Shelby, Roush, Saleen, or any other car that is there for sale, how do you figure the GT is "the car people can actually buy without paying through the nose or coughing up their firstborn or waiting months and months for"?
Dealer rape I'll give you for high-performance special editions, but they are available... on the lots. I have even seen Roush V6 and Stage 1 cars with sale prices, cash back, and incentives.
And how is paying $35k for a Shelby GT in 2007 so much different than paying $28k for a base SS or loaded Z28 in 2000 (comp performance-wise)? I see lots of parity there myself. And if we were to say that the Shelby GT has "improved content", we could even compare it to a loaded SS that would push $35k itself in 2002. So help me out here... what's your point of comparison again?:shrug: Oh yeah... performance.

I think you still need to realize that you are trying to pit a base V8 Mustang against other cars that the base V8 Mustang is not intended to compete against - at least not in Ford's eyes.

When you can order yourself a "Mustang" that has as much as 725hp if you want it... how in the world can you come on line and post that Ford needs to up the HP in it's Mustang to compete? Heck, I can get a 550hp one at a dealership today, but Ford is supposed to be concerned about "stepping it up" to compete with Chrysler and GM's offerings that are not even available yet?!?!
Ya think Ford Powertrain made this 5.4 S/C engine and went home 4 years ago and quit... has done nothing in the last 4 years? If so, you're :nuts:

Few but some. The V6, GT and Cobra were differentiated visually by different fascias, wheels, trim, spoilers, etc.

Umm, yeah... I agree.

Just "wheels"... 15", 16", 17" and about 10 styles of each to choose from.
Just front fascias... with no fog lights, contoured fog lights on GTs, and big round ones on Cobras.
Just snakes on the side, GT on the side, or a running horse on the side.
Just snakes in the grill or a horse in the grill, or no grill, or a billet grill
Just 4 different Mustang interiors (base, LX, GT, and Deluxe) and a Cobra interior with embroidered snakes in the seat 8" tall, or embroidered "COBRA" letters.
Just 4 or 5 different rear spoilers, or no spoiler.
Just the big words "MUSTANG", "MUSTANG GT", or "COBRA" in the rear bumper cover.
Just the two cut-outs in the rear bumper cover, or no cut outs.
Just the shaker hood scoop, twin nostrils on the side, a single big scoop in the middle, twin inverted inductace scoops, a bulged hood, a recessed hood, or a plain hood.
Just the plethora of stripes, black-outs, logos, rocker-panel stripes, blacked-out rear panels or nothing at all, not to mention special colors and schemes like Mystic or Mystichrome.
Bah.

I digress. They all look the same to me. ;)

With regard to speaking about Ford needing "tuners", let's back up one tiny step and look at the GT500 in particular. That car is ordered by Ford dealers anywhere, it is 100% assembled on a production factory line where V6s, GTs, and even Mazdas are built right in front of and behind it. It goes on a rail car, gets trucked to the dealer, and you take delivery. I

Except most of us CAN'T, because there aren't enough cars to meet market demand, because Ford, presumably as a gift to its dealers, has deliberately shorted supply and created a situation where a dealer can sell ONE car and make $12k rather then selling five or six at MSRP to make the same amount of money.

Which makes it a lot more like vaporware than like a car people can actually buy without paying a huge amount of money and/or waiting months and months, which is what I said.

Except most of us CAN'T, because there aren't enough cars to meet market demand, because Ford, presumably as a gift to its dealers, has deliberately shorted supply and created a situation where a dealer can sell ONE car and make $12k rather then selling five or six at MSRP to make the same amount of money.

Which makes it a lot more like vaporware than like a car people can actually buy without paying a huge amount of money and/or waiting months and months, which is what I said.

Your point is WELL taken, I assure you. Even I made a post that I was trying to get an insider to direct me towards a GT500KR, but even the extremely wealthy friend does not plan to try to get one of the 1000 KR's because in his mind - it ain't worth the hassle or the money. (And this guy spent almost $200k for one of the first Ford GTs made no less.)

The sad thing is there are still some 10,000 people out here that have and will still pay the rediculous markups. This is so much like the GTO threads from 3 years ago, it's not funny.

I know personally of dealerships in my area having 3 and 4 GT500's on-hand at a time. Maybe the tide is about to start shifting for the consumer.
I still plan to buy a Gt500 or some variant during 2008 (a significant year in my life ;) ), but the market and pricing may have a huge influence on what it ends up being.

Umm, yeah... I agree.

Just "wheels"... 15", 16", 17" and about 10 styles of each to choose from.
Just front fascias... with no fog lights, contoured fog lights on GTs, and big round ones on Cobras.
Just snakes on the side, GT on the side, or a running horse on the side.
Just snakes in the grill or a horse in the grill, or no grill, or a billet grill
Just 4 different Mustang interiors (base, LX, GT, and Deluxe) and a Cobra interior with embroidered snakes in the seat 8" tall, or embroidered "COBRA" letters.
Just 4 or 5 different rear spoilers, or no spoiler.
Just the big words "MUSTANG", "MUSTANG GT", or "COBRA" in the rear bumper cover.
Just the two cut-outs in the rear bumper cover, or no cut outs.
Just the shaker hood scoop, twin nostrils on the side, a single big scoop in the middle, twin inverted inductace scoops, a bulged hood, a recessed hood, or a plain hood.
Just the plethora of stripes, black-outs, logos, rocker-panel stripes, blacked-out rear panels or nothing at all, not to mention special colors and schemes like Mystic or Mystichrome.
Bah.

I digress. They all look the same to me. ;)

I would still suggest that the cues were minimal, and if you made the same list with a Camaro, Camaro Z28, and Camaro SS (or Firebird, Trans Am, or WS6), you would come up with a similar list of "differences".

So I'll stick by my assertion. :)
Bob

No offence taken, Mark.

You're right, mystique is not a very quantifiable thing, but you know it when you see or feel it. We can say however, that it is a compelling aura which enhances value in a product.

Mustang had it in it's SVT Cobra, Bullitt, Mach 1 and I believe currently has it in the Shelby GT, etc.

My premise is that the 4th gen lacked this quality completely. Completely.

Case and point the '93 Z/28: it would not have required a marketing genius to spin great, big, fat, steaming heaps of mystique out of this mark. Instead, we got a car virtually indiscernable from the base car, essentially flushing all opportunities for mystique down the crapper. Yeah, the LT1 was quick - but in the final analysis - who cared? No one. That quickness wasn't properly wrapped in a package which was appealing, which was identifiable, which was marketable - and which had any mystique. In 1993 we had entered the world of the generic Camaro. And "generic" and "Camaro" are two words which to me, are completely incompatible.

We could go on and on about all of the 4th gen issues we've previously discussed ad nauseam here - for years. Stale styling, poor model differentiation, ugly wheels, horrendous interiors, etc., etc.

But in the end, what is undeniable is this --- after a couple of decent sales years, the 4th gen killed ALL interest which the general populace ALWAYS harbored for the Camaro.



I agree with respect to the Camaro. The 93-97 was pretty much just a wedge with some wheels. Not that it was unattractive, just that it wasn't really very exciting. The Catfish makeover gave it a little more character, but the only ones that were really interesting to look at were the base cars and Zs with the appearance package, and the SS's.

The Firebirds had some character though :)

I think the both of you are on the mark.


The 4th gen Camaro wasn't a horrible car. If it was, I wouldn't be on my 3rd one. I'd even go a slight step farther, and say it's not a bad car.

But look at pre-4th gen Camaros. GM took effort and treated the Camaro (in this, I mean F-bodies) like they were serious about selling the car. They spent considerable attention if not always money. They made sure there was a visual hierarchy in models & made that there were models that covered a wide range of the market. However, with the 4th gen, GM put all it's eggs in the performance basket, and ignored everyone else. It's almost like someone said, "These performance guys will buy anything that's fast, so don't sweat everything else, just put a Vette engine in the thing and call it a day..... You want SLAs up front? Take the cost out of the rest of the car."

The most popular 3rd gen wasn't the Z28 or IROC, but the Camaro RS. I'm not going to look up the numbers right now, but my guess is that over half of them came with V6s. It was an obvious step up from the base model. You could buy a V8 if you wanted. I recall the options list being pretty long.

The "Soul" of a car isn't in it's top model. It's something that's in even the base model which the higher performance model magnifies. The 1st & 2nd gens had it. Even the 3rd gen had it. But then you come to the 4th gen, and it seems that suddenly everyone got it backwards. Instead of the performance model magnifying the greatness of the car, you had just simply a performance model. Oh.... and over there is the base version, but we don't care about that one.



From 94 on, there were very few exterior visual cues that differentiate a Mustang GT (or Cobra, for that matter) from a Mustang V6. In that restpect, it was little different from Camaro or Firebird.

GT had spoiler, rims, bigger tires, foglights, those 2 chrome pipes sticking out the back, not to mention that "Mustang Gurgle" exhaust. A stock dark colored Z28 without even chrome exhaust tips to differentiate it can only be identified by the read "bowtie" out back.

In addition to having a bulging hood, different bumpers & spoiler, and a chrome snake on each fender, different seats and guages, I suppose someone on the sidewalk might confuse a Cobra for a GT.



Except most of us CAN'T, because there aren't enough cars to meet market demand, because Ford, presumably as a gift to its dealers, has deliberately shorted supply and created a situation where a dealer can sell ONE car and make $12k rather then selling five or six at MSRP to make the same amount of money.

Carrol Shelby essentially said as much in an interview (recent MT article, I believe). He virturally came right out and said that they were making the Shelbys for dealers to make alot of money on via markups. But he was refering to "Shelby" Mustangs.