Chevrolet Volt will have liquid cooled batteries.

From Edmunds.com:

GM's Secret for Safe Lithium-ion Batteries: Cool It!

General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz raised eyebrows in battery development circles when he said recently that GM was “100 percent confident” that it has whipped the overheating problem that is hampering development of lithium-ion battery packs for electric and hybrid cars.

Now the General’s secret can be told.

Tony Posawatz, vehicle line director for GM's E-Flex electric vehicle platform, told Green Car Advisor during an interview in Detroit that instead of mounting a frontal attack on battery design for the Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car that is under development, engineers circled around and attacked from the flank.

“We’re going to use liquid cooling,” he whispered.

Running coolant lines through the big array of lithium-ion battery cells that will store energy to propel the Volt and other models built on the E-Flex platform adds cost and isn’t as elegant as developing a battery that won’t overheat, Posawatz admitted. But it is enabling the automaker to keep on its self-appointed schedule: Volts in the market by 2010.

Failure isn’t an option, he said. GM was recently savaged in the popular documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?, for its decision to pull the plug on its first modern electric vehicle, the EV1.

With the Volt, a car Lutz has said will be sold for under $30,000, GM has laid its reputation on the line. Asked if the project could wind up on the cutting room floor, Posawatz shook his head.

“We’d never live it down,” he said.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm actually getting pretty intrested (and enthusiastic) about an electric hybrid car. :eek:

Someone check the tempreature of h*ll, because it must have gotten considerably cooler. :lol:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/GreenCarAdvisor/18

It seems to be all comming together.

Does anyone else think that it is strange and maybe not that smart to have constant updates and "secrets" revealed in the media about this special vehicle?

Well they have such a huge ad campaign for the Volt they have to maintain interest in it anyway they can.

And it seems every story I have been reading lately about the facelifted Prius has somehow tossed in how GM is using Lithium rather than the Nickel batteries. 2 years is not a long time, but who knows what the marketplace will be like.

They just now thought of this?

MAkes me wonder if they'd thought of how to use that excess heat instead of just wasting it...

DV I am sure they have but the cost and how heavy will it make the car.

I thought this was known, that they would be liquid cooled?

Li-Ion? in a car? :eek:

it'll be interesting to see how they deal with this engineering challenge (has this been disclosed yet?)

I thought this was known, that they would be liquid cooled?

Yea, I didn't think that this was any big secret.

Why not Lithium Polymer instead of Lithium Ion? I know at least with laptop batteries they offer the same charge capacity with about half the weight and supposedly far fewer heating issues. But maybe that's just with laptops and they aren't scalable to large scale apps like a car - or maybe they're just too expensive?

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range. Albeit no gasoline motor, so 200 miles is all you get. But I do believe people would prefer a 200 mile all electric range and the simplicity of only having one drive train power source, rather than two. Just don't take it on road trips?
www.teslamotors.com

Granted, yeah it costs 98 grand, but I figure that has more to do with it being an exclusive low volume sports car than anything else, right?

Lastly... how long does GM expect the batteries in this to last and how much will they cost to replace? I know I've heard quotes anywhere from 3500 to 7000 to replace the batteries in current day hybrid vehicles, and around 150k to 200k miles seems to be the typical mark. Adding this as an expected expense along with the gasoline motor and transmission means you might want to just throw this car away by the time it needs battery replacement. Or at least that's what it sounds like with some of these other hybrid vehicles...

Interesting

Why not Lithium Polymer instead of Lithium Ion? I know at least with laptop batteries they offer the same charge capacity with about half the weight and supposedly far fewer heating issues. But maybe that's just with laptops and they aren't scalable to large scale apps like a car - or maybe they're just too expensive?

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range. Albeit no gasoline motor, so 200 miles is all you get. But I do believe people would prefer a 200 mile all electric range and the simplicity of only having one drive train power source, rather than two. Just don't take it on road trips?
www.teslamotors.com (http://www.teslamotors.com)

Granted, yeah it costs 98 grand, but I figure that has more to do with it being an exclusive low volume sports car than anything else, right?

Lastly... how long does GM expect the batteries in this to last and how much will they cost to replace? I know I've heard quotes anywhere from 3500 to 7000 to replace the batteries in current day hybrid vehicles, and around 150k to 200k miles seems to be the typical mark. Adding this as an expected expense along with the gasoline motor and transmission means you might want to just throw this car away by the time it needs battery replacement. Or at least that's what it sounds like with some of these other hybrid vehicles...I have to wonder if the battery will ultimately end up being Lithium-something else by the time production rolls around.

And, there was an article in a recent Popular Science on the Tesla car, and the battery alone was $31,000, IIRC. "Just don't take it on road trips" is a restriction that lots of the market wouldn't tolerate. And, first delivery for July 2008 is not "out now.";)

Battery life and replacement cost- who knows, I suppose. Toyota says they've cut replacement costs for Prius batteries 40% since introduction, though I've never seen the starting number. An acquaintance of mine recently retired from a Toyota dealership, where he was a master mechanic, and he said they hadn't replaced a single battery yet. First-gen Prius has been around since 2000. A friend at work has a 2002 Prius, and he says no issues with the car yet. My neighbor across the street has a 2003 Civic hybrid, and she has no issues, either.

EDIT- I'm excited about the Volt. Hopefully, the looks won't get neutered much. Obviously, the ginormous wheels have to go to help economy, but I was excited to see it at the auto show.

And, first delivery for July 2008 is not "out now.";)

July 2008 is the current delivery date expected for orders that are placed now.

Production is already going on now, as I understand it - the press has already driven several test cars, and the first roadsters should be in the hands of the public before the end of the year. I'd say that's close enough to 'out now'... at least in the sense that the design is finalized, which is to say that the finalized design is set for 200 miles range, which is impressive.

I could definitely live with a 200 mile range with no gas motor if I was given the choice between that and a 40 mile range with a gas motor, assuming all other factors were equal (price, performance, maintenance costs, etc). But maybe that's just me.:p

assuming all other factors were equal (price, performance, maintenance costs, etc).In the real world, though, these cannot be the same for many years, if ever, so it's just wishful thinking that it would be any other way. Current cost for the Tesla battery is $31000. The roadster, being built on the Lotus chassis, is most certainly smaller and lighter weight than Volt, so an all-electric Volt would require an even larger battery to maintain 200mi.

I think the direction they are going with Volt is good. They might consider a CNG-fueled option for the Cali market, though, so they can play the green card to the max.

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range. Albeit no gasoline motor, so 200 miles is all you get. But I do believe people would prefer a 200 mile all electric range and the simplicity of only having one drive train power source, rather than two. Just don't take it on road trips?
www.teslamotors.com

Adding more range would add a lot more cost and a lot more weight. And you still have the finite mileage range that would turn most people off. So GM made the range 40 miles to keep cost and weight down, yet still cover 99% of people's trips. Then they add the IC motor for that 1% that batteries alone won't do, and to ease people's fears about running out of juice and getting stranded.

Why not Lithium Polymer instead of Lithium Ion? I know at least with laptop batteries they offer the same charge capacity with about half the weight and supposedly far fewer heating issues. But maybe that's just with laptops and they aren't scalable to large scale apps like a car - or maybe they're just too expensive?

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range. Albeit no gasoline motor, so 200 miles is all you get. But I do believe people would prefer a 200 mile all electric range and the simplicity of only having one drive train power source, rather than two. Just don't take it on road trips?
www.teslamotors.com

Granted, yeah it costs 98 grand, but I figure that has more to do with it being an exclusive low volume sports car than anything else, right?

Lastly... how long does GM expect the batteries in this to last and how much will they cost to replace? I know I've heard quotes anywhere from 3500 to 7000 to replace the batteries in current day hybrid vehicles, and around 150k to 200k miles seems to be the typical mark. Adding this as an expected expense along with the gasoline motor and transmission means you might want to just throw this car away by the time it needs battery replacement. Or at least that's what it sounds like with some of these other hybrid vehicles...

40 mile range with ZERO gas needed. This does not mean 40 miles and the battery is drained.

Assuming performance drops off after a certain charge point, that's likely where the engine will kick in and recharge it up till it hits another charge point. Thus it's zero gas needed until it hit that charge point.

Assuming performance drops off after a certain charge point, that's likely where the engine will kick in and recharge it up till it hits another charge point. Thus it's zero gas needed until it hit that charge point.

The last information I saw on this indicated that the battery would be charged to 80% during the overnight charge period. The Volt will then run on the battery until the battery reaches about 30%, at which point the IC engine kicks in and remains in use until the next plug-in charge cycle. At this point, there is little indication that any sort of on-off cycling of the IC engine (and the resultant high rates of charge) will be implemented on the Volt. Current lithium batteries tend to be very intolerant of high charge rates; perhaps this will improve as the technology is rolled-out (NiMH batteries have certainly made huge gains in this area since their introduction).

The last information I saw on this indicated that the battery would be charged to 80% during the overnight charge period. The Volt will then run on the battery until the battery reaches about 30%, at which point the IC engine kicks in and remains in use until the next plug-in charge cycle. At this point, there is little indication that any sort of on-off cycling of the IC engine (and the resultant high rates of charge) will be implemented on the Volt. Current lithium batteries tend to be very intolerant of high charge rates; perhaps this will improve as the technology is rolled-out (NiMH batteries have certainly made huge gains in this area since their introduction).

Only 80%? That seems kinda against the point of plugging it in and not using gas. Not to mention with the gas engine that charging it to 100% it would have to be stopped then anyways.

Only 80%? That seems kinda against the point of plugging it in and not using gas. Not to mention with the gas engine that charging it to 100% it would have to be stopped then anyways.

Constantly charging a Li-Ion battery to 100% and completely discharging it is a very bad thing for their battery life. If they don't stay in the middle of completely empty and full, then they "forget" and their max charging will change depending on what side of the extreme the battery spend most of its life at.

The interesting thing about the Volt is that since the motor will not have any direct driving of the wheels, you could replace the transmission with a large, relative speaking, generator and do a lot more charging than you could if there was a transmission there. Whether that is what GM does or not I don't know.

I belive thats what happens, there is a small engine in there attached to a power generator. The engine turns on only to charge the batteries, not to run the car.

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range....

I too would love GM to produce an all eletric plug-in car. But it isnt fair to compare ranges between the two cars. The Volt has an extra engine. The Volt has 4 seats.

The Telsa Roadster is a 2 seater supercar that cost $90,000 +.

The last information I saw on this indicated that the battery would be charged to 80% during the overnight charge period. The Volt will then run on the battery until the battery reaches about 30%, at which point the IC engine kicks in and remains in use until the next plug-in charge cycle. At this point, there is little indication that any sort of on-off cycling of the IC engine (and the resultant high rates of charge) will be implemented on the Volt. Current lithium batteries tend to be very intolerant of high charge rates; perhaps this will improve as the technology is rolled-out (NiMH batteries have certainly made huge gains in this area since their introduction).

Correct.

Also, as I've said time and again on TheGMSource.

Everybody and their mother says that it will be 2010 because GM is worried about the batteries being ready.

Not at all true.

2010 is because that is when the next generation small car architecture will be ready. So, from what I've gotten......the batteries are not what GM will be waiting on. It's the architecture.

Consider that battery packs will be available to test late this year. That pretty much sums up that it's the architecture, and not the battery packs.

They just now thought of this?

MAkes me wonder if they'd thought of how to use that excess heat instead of just wasting it...
Probably the same way as a conventional car uses it's coolant:
Heater Core for winters/Radiator for the summer.

Probably the same way as a conventional car uses it's coolant:
Heater Core for winters/Radiator for the summer.

Depending on the amount of heat, i wonder if they've thought of using that temperature differental to provide an additional energy boost? Although a heater/AC is going to be a must if this car will catch on.

I've been following GM's Zeta car development for 4 years. When the Camaro was finally officially announced and the US Zetas all but common knowledge, I figured that was the end, and that no other vehicle would spark as much intrest in me ever again. The Volt came out, and to be honest, I shruged and wrote it off as a design excercise for some future GM product. Now, even though I've always viewed hybrids as barely more than public relations ploys, the Volt has finally got me very intrested, and is the perfect vehicle program to turn my attentions to now that Camaro and Zeta is no longer news of high intrest.

What's going into the car, the problems that are being overcome with simple cost effective solutions, and the potential of the Volt to revolutionize the automobile industry and it's technology to bleed into other models makes this car perhaps the biggest automotive news since the automatic transmission, or even the Model T (if the car is profitable).

I think it's impossible to underestimate the impact the Volt will have if GM pulls if off and it does even just most of what's promised.

I wonder if the engine/generator rig will generate enough power to charge the car while driving, or if it will only generate enough to drive the car, leaving the battery reserve unaffected. And if it can indeed charge while driving, how long would it take to go from "empty" to "full", at whatever actual charge points GM sets on the battery?

I also wonder what kind of performance we can expect out of the Volt. It looks fast, but is it going to be? I'm not expecting a 12-second car or anything... but is a 15-second timeslip out of the question? If it's too slow to merge into heavy interstate traffic easily, I would be very hesitant to buy one.

Why not Lithium Polymer instead of Lithium Ion? I know at least with laptop batteries they offer the same charge capacity with about half the weight and supposedly far fewer heating issues. But maybe that's just with laptops and they aren't scalable to large scale apps like a car - or maybe they're just too expensive?


Totally different application. There is a very good article in the current Road & Track describing the various bettery options Pb/acid, Ni-MH, Li-ion, etc., and the amount of charge per pound of battery weight each has along with the cost of materials. Also, in more to the point of your question, there are differnet battery designs depending on the type of power required, i.e, cell phones and laptops need low power for extended periods while cordless drills need high power for shorter periods.

I wonder how these batteries will respond to cold winter days? I do a lot of back country hiking and we have to use lithium ion batteries for our LED headlamps... and even then on colder nights try to keep the battery pack inside our jacket - otherwise the light output can suffer noticeably as can the life span.

So I wonder if the optimal performance will instead be achieve on moderate temperature days, now?:D Not too hot, not too cold.

Granted if these batteries produce that much heat then maybe super cold days will just let the liquid cooling system take a break?

I wonder how these batteries will respond to cold winter days? I do a lot of back country hiking and we have to use lithium ion batteries for our LED headlamps... and even then on colder nights try to keep the battery pack inside our jacket - otherwise the light output can suffer noticeably as can the life span.

So I wonder if the optimal performance will instead be achieve on moderate temperature days, now?:D Not too hot, not too cold.

Granted if these batteries produce that much heat then maybe super cold days will just let the liquid cooling system take a break?
There were plenty of warnings about the lithium polymer batteries in my Aero Ace Air Hog about fires and explosions, and the battery was the size of a nickel ;)

Cant they just throw a couple of optima yellowtops in there? :D

I wonder how these batteries will respond to cold winter days? I do a lot of back country hiking and we have to use lithium ion batteries for our LED headlamps... and even then on colder nights try to keep the battery pack inside our jacket - otherwise the light output can suffer noticeably as can the life span.

So I wonder if the optimal performance will instead be achieve on moderate temperature days, now?:D Not too hot, not too cold.

Granted if these batteries produce that much heat then maybe super cold days will just let the liquid cooling system take a break?
Li-Ion seems to especially hate heat. if you leave a laptop or cell phone in direct sunlight just a few times in an enclosed car during the summer down here that battery is as good as toast. not being a battery expert or anything but i'd imagine it'd be hard to get 5 - 10 years out of a Li-Ion battery pack in the summer sun of the southern states.

that combined with the Li-Ion + h2o = explosion thing is why i'm actually very interested to see how they overcome these various issues.

Li-Ion seems to especially hate heat. if you leave a laptop or cell phone in direct sunlight just a few times in an enclosed car during the summer down here that battery is as good as toast. not being a battery expert or anything but i'd imagine it'd be hard to get 5 - 10 years out of a Li-Ion battery pack in the summer sun of the southern states.

that combined with the Li-Ion + h2o = explosion thing is why i'm actually very interested to see how they overcome these various issues.

Now you're beginning to bring up just a few of the technological roadblocks that electric cars face. You read letters from folks screaming conspiracy; that electric cars are just a simple battery and motor that we should all be driving except the (insert evil corporation name here) is keeping it from us. There are many problems that people don't really think about (like how to maintain performance after cold-soaking in sub-zero temps overnight). The manufacturers have to overcome these tough technological problems; customers will not buy a vehicle that is compromised in any way compared to the conventional cars we are used to.

I guess this would be a good thread to post this link: http://www.killacycle.com/

Li-Ion seems to especially hate heat. if you leave a laptop or cell phone in direct sunlight just a few times in an enclosed car during the summer down here that battery is as good as toast. not being a battery expert or anything but i'd imagine it'd be hard to get 5 - 10 years out of a Li-Ion battery pack in the summer sun of the southern states.

that combined with the Li-Ion + h2o = explosion thing is why i'm actually very interested to see how they overcome these various issues.
Same goes for the cold.

good thing they are not trying to use Li-Po ..... BANG!

Also - why 'only' a 40 mile range for a car that won't be out for 2.5-3 more years? The Tesla Roadster (which is out now) is a sports car has a 200 mile range.

The chassis is based off a Lotus Elise -- this is a small car! And while the Lotus is about 2000lb, the Tesla is 2700lb! Of that weight, literally a thousand pounds of it is battery.

Thats a Lotus chassis. Using a standard (read cheap to produce) chassis is going to add a lot of weight.

Water cooling is a given and has been. I want to say several of the production hybrids today already have had water cooling systems designed for their batteries.

I bet that using lithium for the battery isnt the thing holding the volt back - but I bet the cost of that battery is causing a few headaches. :p

I guess this would be a good thread to post this link: http://www.killacycle.com/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YV8_meso6kU
:lol::burnout:

I wonder if the engine/generator rig will generate enough power to charge the car while driving, or if it will only generate enough to drive the car, leaving the battery reserve unaffected. And if it can indeed charge while driving, how long would it take to go from "empty" to "full", at whatever actual charge points GM sets on the battery?

The engine/generator makes 53 kW of electrical energy. Assuming that it takes about 10 kW (~15 HP) to propel the car down the road at 55 MPH, sufficient extra power would be available to charge the 16 kWh battery pack in under a half-hour. That would be an extremely aggressive charge, to say the least.


I also wonder what kind of performance we can expect out of the Volt. It looks fast, but is it going to be? I'm not expecting a 12-second car or anything... but is a 15-second timeslip out of the question? If it's too slow to merge into heavy interstate traffic easily, I would be very hesitant to buy one.

Well, the 120 kW electric motor ought to provide some very impressive performance; GM is claiming 0-60 times in the 8-8.5 sec range. I should certainly hope that'd be fast enough for any real-world driving conditions.

Consider that battery packs will be available to test late this year. That pretty much sums up that it's the architecture, and not the battery packs.

"Available to test" is a heck of a long ways from being tooled-up, validated, PPAP'd, and ready to produce. The 2010 SOP date is still very aggressive, given the amount and type of info available at this time.

The engine/generator makes 53 kW of electrical energy. Assuming that it takes about 10 kW (~15 HP) to propel the car down the road at 55 MPH, sufficient extra power would be available to charge the 16 kWh battery pack in under a half-hour. That would be an extremely aggressive charge, to say the least.



Well, the 120 kW electric motor ought to provide some very impressive performance; GM is claiming 0-60 times in the 8-8.5 sec range. I should certainly hope that'd be fast enough for any real-world driving conditions.
I was hoping for sub 5 second 0-60 times. I wonder how well this thing is going to be able to be modded? :hmm:

They just now thought of this?
No, they just now determined that it will work well enough for a production car with a warranty. What do you think, some engineer has an idea and the company immediately sends out press releases stating that they're going with that idea?

I was hoping for sub 5 second 0-60 times. I wonder how well this thing is going to be able to be modded? :hmm:

Modding electric cars... well, there aren't many things you can do. Increase voltage, increase current, reduce resistance, increase motor efficiency. That's pretty much it as far as increasing power. Then there's always weight reduction and gear ratio changes (although some electric cars have motors that drive the wheels directly, so no gears).

I think this is one of the most exciting car to come from GM in YEARS. This is second to the 5th gen Camaro, of course. My nostalgia for Camaros is pretty strong, but I'm also very curious/interested in an electric car.

I'm guessing a first-gen volt will be something you'll want to own new, as in the second development cycle the batteries and other components will advance significantly. Also, you'll be stuck owning it for life because I bet the resale value disppears upon the introduction of the 2nd gen.

I think this is one of the most exciting car to come from GM in YEARS. This is second to the 5th gen Camaro, of course. My nostalgia for Camaros is pretty strong, but I'm also very curious/interested in an electric car.

I'm guessing a first-gen volt will be something you'll want to own new, as in the second development cycle the batteries and other components will advance significantly. Also, you'll be stuck owning it for life because I bet the resale value disppears upon the introduction of the 2nd gen.

Not if the batteries are interchangeable. :D

No, they just now determined that it will work well enough for a production car with a warranty. What do you think, some engineer has an idea and the company immediately sends out press releases stating that they're going with that idea?
:rolleyes: no, but i figured it would have been in place since the introduction of the car since the batteries need cooling. Or at least as something they'd look into.


Modding electric cars... well, there aren't many things you can do. Increase voltage, increase current, reduce resistance, increase motor efficiency. That's pretty much it as far as increasing power. Then there's always weight reduction and gear ratio changes (although some electric cars have motors that drive the wheels directly, so no gears).Depends on if they go AC or DC drive. I figure on AC, so looks like i'll have to brush up on my AC Motor info...

I've been following GM's Zeta car development for 4 years. When the Camaro was finally officially announced and the US Zetas all but common knowledge, I figured that was the end, and that no other vehicle would spark as much intrest in me ever again. The Volt came out, and to be honest, I shruged and wrote it off as a design excercise for some future GM product. Now, even though I've always viewed hybrids as barely more than public relations ploys, the Volt has finally got me very intrested, and is the perfect vehicle program to turn my attentions to now that Camaro and Zeta is no longer news of high intrest.

What's going into the car, the problems that are being overcome with simple cost effective solutions, and the potential of the Volt to revolutionize the automobile industry and it's technology to bleed into other models makes this car perhaps the biggest automotive news since the automatic transmission, or even the Model T (if the car is profitable).

I think it's impossible to underestimate the impact the Volt will have if GM pulls if off and it does even just most of what's promised.

Agreed. It has the potential to be a segment buster. I was walking with some female co-workers near the Capitol, and we saw a Volt parked on a curbside as a GM PR ploy. The girls were quite taken by it. They knew nothing about "E-Flex," but they were sure that this car looked cool as hell. Whereas the Prius has at best a nerdy Japanese charm, the Volt looks brash and American. If GM can make the technology truly seamless, they'll sell more of these than they think, and more importantly, will drastically change the way the company is perceived.

Agreed. It has the potential to be a segment buster. I was walking with some female co-workers near the Capitol, and we saw a Volt parked on a curbside as a GM PR ploy. The girls were quite taken by it. They knew nothing about "E-Flex," but they were sure that this car looked cool as hell. Whereas the Prius has at best a nerdy Japanese charm, the Volt looks brash and American. If GM can make the technology truly seamless, they'll sell more of these than they think, and more importantly, will drastically change the way the company is perceived.

I don't actually hate any cars, but the Prius is special in that regard. I utterly despise them.

I think it has alot to do with the people who drive them. Perhaps, it's different in other cities and areas, but around here in California, especially in the Bay Area, people drive them simply because they want the world to know they are saving the enviroment. There was a "South Park" episode that included buying a Prius about "Smug" that was a perfect bullseye. These types of people won't buy any hybrid or enviro-friendly car unless it looks like an egg on wheels and screams "I'm not like everyone else". Prius' real world fuel economy is no better than their own conventionally powered Yaris.

Ford Escapes and Honda Civics have been available in Hybrid versions for some time, and the Toyota Rav came in an electric powered version briefly. Most seem to either gather dust on lots or sold below wholesale to government agencies.

I think it has alot to do with the people who drive them. Perhaps, it's different in other cities and areas, but around here in California, especially in the Bay Area, people drive them simply because they want the world to know they are saving the enviroment. There was a "South Park" episode that included buying a Prius about "Smug" that was a perfect bullseye. These types of people won't buy any hybrid or enviro-friendly car unless it looks like an egg on wheels and screams "I'm not like everyone else". Prius' real world fuel economy is no better than their own conventionally powered Yaris.
:bow: Word! :bow:

I think it has alot to do with the people who drive them. Perhaps, it's different in other cities and areas, but around here in California, especially in the Bay Area, people drive them simply because they want the world to know they are saving the enviroment. There was a "South Park" episode that included buying a Prius about "Smug" that was a perfect bullseye. These types of people won't buy any hybrid or enviro-friendly car unless it looks like an egg on wheels and screams "I'm not like everyone else". Prius' real world fuel economy is no better than their own conventionally powered Yaris.
That is because people in San Francisco are just a little more progressive, and ahead of the curve.


http://www.southparkstudios.com/img/content/season10/1002.gif
"Thanks!."

hey, someone's gotta be the guinea pigs, i mean, early adopters to new tech. I'll consider the Volt if it delivers.. maybe wait till the 2nd year run.. ;)

I mean, there are some people here that won't even buy a 1st year run of a 5th gen Camaro.. ;)

I've been following GM's Zeta car development for 4 years. When the Camaro was finally officially announced and the US Zetas all but common knowledge, I figured that was the end, and that no other vehicle would spark as much intrest in me ever again. The Volt came out, and to be honest, I shruged and wrote it off as a design excercise for some future GM product. Now, even though I've always viewed hybrids as barely more than public relations ploys, the Volt has finally got me very intrested, and is the perfect vehicle program to turn my attentions to now that Camaro and Zeta is no longer news of high intrest.

What's going into the car, the problems that are being overcome with simple cost effective solutions, and the potential of the Volt to revolutionize the automobile industry and it's technology to bleed into other models makes this car perhaps the biggest automotive news since the automatic transmission, or even the Model T (if the car is profitable).

I think it's impossible to underestimate the impact the Volt will have if GM pulls if off and it does even just most of what's promised.
This...brought a tear to my eye. :usa:

I don't actually hate any cars, but the Prius is special in that regard. I utterly despise them.

I think it has alot to do with the people who drive them. Perhaps, it's different in other cities and areas, but around here in California, especially in the Bay Area, people drive them simply because they want the world to know they are saving the enviroment. There was a "South Park" episode that included buying a Prius about "Smug" that was a perfect bullseye. These types of people won't buy any hybrid or enviro-friendly car unless it looks like an egg on wheels and screams "I'm not like everyone else". Prius' real world fuel economy is no better than their own conventionally powered Yaris.

Ford Escapes and Honda Civics have been available in Hybrid versions for some time, and the Toyota Rav came in an electric powered version briefly. Most seem to either gather dust on lots or sold below wholesale to government agencies.
So you should hate the people that drive them, not the car :p TBH Prius's, like Camaro's and so on have a lot more potential with some modding. If you do the plug-in mod with a Prius, you can easily get 100 Lifetime MPG. It's just too bad the aftermarket is so laughable at best for hybrids and you really have to do some digging to find the people that do this stuff.

The comparison of the Yaris and Prius is unfair. That's like saying a Mustang GT500 is lame because it's no faster than a naturally aspired Corvette. The Prius is capable of much higher MPG than the Yaris. People don't always get it because they don't know how to drive for good MPG, but there is more potential.

This is part of the reason why there's so much bias when it comes to hybrids, especially on a forum like this. People don't realize that there's hybrid enthusiasts too. Instead of seeing how fast they can make their cars, they like to see how many MPG they can get out of it. Enthusiasts on this board like to spend more money for faster cars, whats wrong with spending more money for cars that get better gas milage?

So you should hate the people that drive them, not the car :p TBH Prius's, like Camaro's and so on have a lot more potential with some modding. If you do the plug-in mod with a Prius, you can easily get 100 Lifetime MPG. It's just too bad the aftermarket is so laughable at best for hybrids and you really have to do some digging to find the people that do this stuff.
That's kind of where I stand. Many Prius owners are so full of themselves, just like in the South Park episode. They see themselves as saving the environment yet have no clue as to the long term impacts their green vehicles will have when it comes time to replace them, or their batteries.

I think its cool what some of the electro-gearheads are doing to mod their hybrids into plug-ins. Personally, any hybrid that isn't a plug-in is a wasted effort IMHO. The only problem I see at this point is the cool hybrids are still too expensive. (Lexus 460h.)

This is part of the reason why there's so much bias when it comes to hybrids, especially on a forum like this. People don't realize that there's hybrid enthusiasts too. Instead of seeing how fast they can make their cars, they like to see how many MPG they can get out of it. Enthusiasts on this board like to spend more money for faster cars, whats wrong with spending more money for cars that get better gas milage?
There are also full electric power enthusiasts that are just as much into performance as we are. They have the best of both worlds IMHO. Hybrids are somewhere in the middle, they aren't quiet "green", yet they are a little greener than gasoline powered vehicles. Hybrid buyers tend to think they are greener than us, yet they aren't as green as full electric owners, but they're a heck of alot more arrogant.

That's part of the reason I think hybrid buyers are full of themselves when they start acting like the characters in South Park. I'm sure there are some that buy them just to save money on gas. But are they really driving hybrids because they think they are saving the environment? Or are they buying them just to save money? (Long term of course.)

Personally I'd rather wait for the full-electrics to improve on performance/range than to opt for a hybrid. Give me freeway speeds, room for four adults and a range of 400 mi per charge all priced for under $35k, and I just may buy. (It depends on the time it takes to recharge the batteries.) Until then, its just too darn hilly and there's too much traffic to take full advantage of what the current hybrids have to offer to be truly a "green" vehicle in these parts. :p

Depends on if they go AC or DC drive. I figure on AC, so looks like i'll have to brush up on my AC Motor info...

It will certainly be AC - DC is all but dead for traction applications.

The mod potential for this thing will be enormous - huge gains could be had by playing with phase advance (a software change), changing the controller's target V/f constant by increasing the modulation index (yet another software change), or physically rewinding the motor to change the Kv and Kt constants. Once people get their heads wrapped around EV architecture, modding the internal combustion engine is gonna seem like a total PITA. It'll be a good time to be an electrical engineer :D

The warranty claims that result from all of this tinkering should be entertaining as well.

It will certainly be AC - DC is all but dead for traction applications.

The mod potential for this thing will be enormous - huge gains could be had by playing with phase advance (a software change), changing the controller's target V/f constant by increasing the modulation index (yet another software change), or physically rewinding the motor to change the Kv and Kt constants. Once people get their heads wrapped around EV architecture, modding the internal combustion engine is gonna seem like a total PITA. It'll be a good time to be an electrical engineer :D

The warranty claims that result from all of this tinkering should be entertaining as well.ECE Major here ;).

ECE Major here ;).

Good - start paying attention in your electrical machines classes, 'cause you'll need that stuff out here in the real world :) Here's a strong hint - study up on three-phase AC.

I can see how you Cali guys don't like the Prius because of the owners. In my experience, Cali has more self-important people than any other state, either on a total or per capita basis, that Smug Prevention® is needed way before you even get to the car choice.:)

Around here, I see lots of hybrids, but mostly for one reason- single rider access to the HOV. They killed that privilege July 1st, so I wonder if hybrids have taken a big hit. I did see a bumper sticker on a Prius- "More Coal. Less Middle East Oil. I can live with that." I'm thinking- this guy gets it perfectly.:)

Some people- like my uncle, an '04 Prius owner- are technology freaks, and just buy on that alone. Some people- like my brother, an '06 Prius owner- here people like me talking about the tech, and just go buy it. Some people- like my parents, '06 Highlander Hybrid owners- well... I have no idea why they bought it.:think: They live in a rural area, do NO city commuting, are not tech-lovers in any way, but they wanted it, just cause.

Civics don't sell as well because they have no golf-cart mode. Escapes don't sell because they look and feel like Escapes.:)

I was ready to buy a hybrid- Camry, likely- last year when I picked up my new TL. I also realized that on my 6.0 mile work commute, the engine would likely run the whole time, because of the emissions restrictions for cold-starts, so I'd get no benefit. I borrowed Mom's Highlander, and I was right (for that model, at least). So, I wait... for something like Volt.

The comparison of the Yaris and Prius is unfair. That's like saying a Mustang GT500 is lame because it's no faster than a naturally aspired Corvette. The Prius is capable of much higher MPG than the Yaris. People don't always get it because they don't know how to drive for good MPG, but there is more potential.

People, in general, aren't interested in changing the way they drive. Leadfoots will always be leadfoots, and lightfoots will always be lightfoots. Driven the same, Prius and Yaris have very similar MPG results. Prius is a little better in the city, Yaris is a little better on the highway.

DC is all but dead for traction applications.
FWIW, that isn't the case in the transit industry. Our trains run on 1000v DC power.

:D

Around here, I see lots of hybrids, but mostly for one reason- single rider access to the HOV. They killed that privilege July 1st, so I wonder if hybrids have taken a big hit. I did see a bumper sticker on a Prius- "More Coal. Less Middle East Oil. I can live with that." I'm thinking- this guy gets it perfectly.:)
They've stop issuing the HOV permits for hybrids here as well. For city driving and level terrain, hybrids offer a huge savings. For me personally (22 mile round trip on freeway with hilly terrain) I just don't see a huge benefit. And while I'd love to consider a full electric vehicle, the 12% grade to get up my street makes that idea less than practical.

They've stop issuing the HOV permits for hybrids here as well. For city driving and level terrain, hybrids offer a huge savings. For me personally (22 mile round trip on freeway with hilly terrain) I just don't see a huge benefit. And while I'd love to consider a full electric vehicle, the 12% grade to get up my street makes that idea less than practical.

I havent driven a full eletric car yet. But they should have a lot of torque. I dont see a hill being much of an issue. But I could be wrong.

Yeah, I know Prius drivers of all sorts -- the smug fart-smelling kind, the tech nerds, and the people who just wanted to get the HOV pass. Also, just in general, small nice cars appeal to people out here.

I havent driven a full eletric car yet. But they should have a lot of torque. I dont see a hill being much of an issue. But I could be wrong.Nor do I think it would be an issue in something like the Tesla Roadster. However I can't justify the price, nor is its range practical enough for my needs.

From everything I've read, torque/performance negatively impacts range/battery life. At the present, you can only have one or the other.

All, I gotta say is, at least for very large application, our US military believes series hybrid is the future. Look at the new HEMTT A3

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522760

Interstingly, they hint that this tech will appear on 18 commercial wheeler trucks in the near future. Now that would be a feat, considering how rough those trucks' lives are.

Freight trains already use series hybrid. IMO, its ironic that this concept has to be shrunk down to something for avg civillian transportation, instead of the other way aroud, some super small light vehicle that needs to move its way up in size.

FWIW, that isn't the case in the transit industry. Our trains run on 1000v DC power.

:D

Is that the input power to the train, or is that the architecture of the motors? There's a big difference. I'm guessing that your traction motors use AC drive, because damn near everything else either has gone that direction or is in the process of doing so.

Is that the input power to the train, or is that the architecture of the motors? There's a big difference. I'm guessing that your traction motors use AC drive, because damn near everything else either has gone that direction or is in the process of doing so.You're right of course. :shame: I'm just a civil engineer and mainly deal with the track and stations. We take 34.5kV AC down to 1000v DC to power the 3rd rail, which is then picked up through collector shoes by the trains, which in turn covert it over to AC to run the AC traction motors.

It will certainly be AC - DC is all but dead for traction applications.

The mod potential for this thing will be enormous - huge gains could be had by playing with phase advance (a software change), changing the controller's target V/f constant by increasing the modulation index (yet another software change), or physically rewinding the motor to change the Kv and Kt constants. Once people get their heads wrapped around EV architecture, modding the internal combustion engine is gonna seem like a total PITA. It'll be a good time to be an electrical engineer :D

The warranty claims that result from all of this tinkering should be entertaining as well.

You know, I had to take 1 circuits class in college and that was one too many. I think driving a full-electric car would trigger flashbacks - every time I went to start it, I'd expect a pop quiz.

Give me cams and valves any day.

Is that the input power to the train, or is that the architecture of the motors? There's a big difference. I'm guessing that your traction motors use AC drive, because damn near everything else either has gone that direction or is in the process of doing so.

The push to AC is not universal. AC was looking to take over the freight locomotive industry, but DC is still simpler, cheaper, and better understood. A surprisingly large percentage of new freight locomotives are still built with DC power.

The push to AC is not universal. AC was looking to take over the freight locomotive industry, but DC is still simpler, cheaper, and better understood. A surprisingly large percentage of new freight locomotives are still built with DC power.

Yep, but as semiconductor prices continue to drop and fuel prices continue to creep up, my guess is that AC drive continues to increase market share.

Also keep in mind that the cost of adding regenerative charging (as opposed to "mere" regenerative braking) to a DC system will add substantial costs and thus decreases the cost advantage relative to AC.