Lutz on importing Ute: "might not be a sound business proposition."

"I will tell you, the business case isn't being helped by the continued strength of the Australian dollar versus the US dollar," he said.

"The pricing we would need to make it successful - the program is at the point where it might not be a sound business proposition.

"Or we would have to subsidise it, which we are basically not going to do. Or we would have to price it to the moon."

http://www.automochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3978#post3978

Close the book on that one...

I don't see why the high AUS $ affects the Ute and not the G8?

I don't see why the high AUS $ affects the Ute and not the G8?That is indeed a good question.

I personally do not think I would ever want or need a ute, but I can see how they might appeal to some people. Just don't know if "some people" is enough.

Volume?

I couldn't see demand for the Ute being near what the G8 could be, even if gas wasn't still in the upper $2/gal bracket. No loss to me, I was never interested to begin with.

I don't see why the high AUS $ affects the Ute and not the G8?Probably because being a Pontiac, they can charge close to $40k for the G8 and still make it profitable. Who is going to pay north of $35k for a Ute?

Probably because being a Pontiac, they can charge close to $40k for the G8 and still make it profitable. Who is going to pay north of $35k for a Ute?

Not me thats for sure. Ive always been luke warm on the elcamino at best. I respect the people who are into them and have heard the whys but still cant see getting one.

I don't see why the high AUS $ affects the Ute and not the G8?

It must affect the G8. But it's already an announced product. It'd be a little late to pull back now.

There may be more margin in the G8 also. A fully loaded sticker of $35K or so on a G8 GT would be easier to take than a similar sticker on a loaded "El Camino".

The G8 will be going up against luxury RWD cars.

Lutz said that GM won't subsidize the Ute, but I'm not aware of him ever saying anything similar about the G8 :)

They probably bought currency futures to hedge the cost of the G8 several months ago, meaning that they've locked in a (lower) exchange rate already. The dollar has dropped a lot lately, and some of my smart Wall St friends think it's going to drop a lot more.

The dollar has dropped a lot lately, and some of my smart Wall St friends think it's going to drop a lot more.

I'm not one of your Wall St friends, and I think it will drop more too. :(

As for the Ute, it is a totally unique vehicle unlike anything currently on our market here. I think it would sell pretty well just on uniqueness alone for a yearor two. Not 100k/year, but in good volumes. And with a good V8 would attract performance-minded people as well.

I guess as much as I love Lutz' demeanor and his success, it still pains me to hear him talking about a vehicle in purely business terms - dollars and cents - instead of passion, appeal, and heritage. It just reinforces what some of us have said many times - even regarding the new Camaro... it must make $$$ or it will not be here long. Every car has a business case, or it doesn't hag around. Sad but true.

It just reinforces what some of us have said many times - even regarding the new Camaro... it must make $$$ or it will not be here long. Every car has a business case, or it doesn't hag around. Sad but true.

Same discussions are happening over on the Mopar boards after Nardelli's comments last week... everything needs a business case, although he did explicitly say that Hemis and muscle cars are part of the company's DNA and will be continued. (And in the next breath said that the company nevertheless needs to get a lot greener, fast.)

But a lot of folks are wondering about the status of the next-gen Viper right now.

But a lot of folks are wondering about the status of the next-gen Viper right now.

Outside of being a high-vis halo car for the company, I'd say the business case for a car like the Viper is a grim one - especially given the recent change in ownership of the company and their financial situation.

Does the word "hiatus" mean anything to anyone here? I would not be surprised. :no:

Soooooo... What in the Hell happend to the G8 GT comming around $30-32K nicely equipped??? Now people are thinking 35+??? NO Way!!!

I want this car BAD but if it gets that high I might have to re-consider... I mean, at that point why not just get the CTS???

The US dollar and the Aus $ have a good chance of being at 1 to 1 in the next 2-5 years. Just look at how far the US$ has fallen against the Canadian dollar.

5 years ago the Aus$ was 55¢ today it is 83¢
5 years ago the Can$ was 64¢ today it is 97¢
5 years ago the Euro was 98¢ today it is $1.39

Isn't the G8 going to be built in Canada after a year or so at the same plant as the Camaro? I think that is the consideration. At that time, maybe they reevaluate the Ute to see if it makes sense for the US market.

The G8 is only going to be produced and shipped from Oz for a couple years, and then production moves to Canada. They could probably do the same with the Ute, but the investment vs. returns wouldn't be as good as the G8.

Outside of being a high-vis halo car for the company, I'd say the business case for a car like the Viper is a grim one - especially given the recent change in ownership of the company and their financial situation.

I have heard that the Viper program is profitable, but I don't actually have any idea how profitable, or whether they're taking things other than actual revenue-from-sales-of-cars into account. (Meaning, are they trying to quantify the halo effect in terms of marketing dollars, etc.)

it still pains me to hear him talking about a vehicle in purely business terms - dollars and cents - instead of passion, appeal, and heritage. It just reinforces what some of us have said many times - even regarding the new Camaro... it must make $$$ or it will not be here long. Every car has a business case, or it doesn't hag around. Sad but true.

Sad but true.. :no:

Bob Lutz tends to verbalize whatever the current thought process is at General Motors. If you listen to what he says, you can tell when decisions are being reviewed, questions are being raised, or what's happening to a program. As such, more than a few times, he's had to reverse or clarify himself over comments made.

When he said Zeta was halted, after word got out the program was killed he had to come back and explain that he had to kill the program to get everyone to stop working on it so the whole program could be reviewed. He went on farther to explain that projects tend to continue even if temporarily put on hold, so he had to stop everything. Another instance was when he called Pontiac a "Damaged Brand". Dealers felt they were going to be the next Oldsmobile. He had to return and clarify that wasn't the case at all, that Pontiac needed new product and later Rick Wagoner announced that Pontiac would be essentially combined with Buick.

This time around, Bob Lutz is voicing a thought process that's circulating, perhaps at the final number crunching phase of a program before final approval. However, Bob Lutz has sounded other warnings about currency exchange rates before.

Before the GTO came out, he voiced concerns about the exchange rate. Before the North American Zeta program was put on it's short hiatus for review, he mentioned at least once that the Australian exchange rate could prevent cars from being imported to the US in the future. When the VE came out, he mentioned exchange rates as a consideration for importing any future Holden cars. Yet, not only was the G8 approved, plans were set to import Opel Astras as Saturns. The logic in importing the Astra, despite unfavorable currency rates with the Euro? North America didn't have to spend the money in development and setting up manufacturing for the car.

The reason the G8 isn't in jepordy is because there's a huge pricing marging where GM could price the car. The price range can go all the way up to the mid to upper 30K range where the Bonneville used to be, and the VE is good enough that it will be seen as worth it. It doesn't have to be priced as a mid level Grand Prix to sell. The G8's case is solid.

The Ute on the other hand, is more of a lower production, modest price vehicle. Utes are cheaper than similarly equpted Commodores. Mr Lutz exaggerated quite a bit when he claimed that they'd have to price the Ute "to the moon", but he just tipped his hand by indicating he wanted to sell the Ute at a rock-bottom price, and might have to price it closer to what the G8's going to sell for.

Either way, the whole US Ute program is pretty much in it's final stage.


My guesses?

A. GM imports a few thousand high end Utes and sell them as specialty vehicles and takes a pass on perhaps 8-10K regular Utes with both V6s and V8s, or....

B. GM decides that since the EC plant is at full capacity with the G8, and the US El Camino is a year behind the Chevrolet Zeta sedan, to shelve the Holden Ute's import plans at the 11th hour and 59th minute and wait for the Camino or wait for the US dollar to recover to the point where the program's profitable at low pricing, whichever comes first.

B.




I have heard that the Viper program is profitable, but I don't actually have any idea how profitable, or whether they're taking things other than actual revenue-from-sales-of-cars into account. (Meaning, are they trying to quantify the halo effect in terms of marketing dollars, etc.)

Yes, the Viper program has gotten to the point where it's self sustainable, and makes a little change on the side. I think the question being asked is does Chrysler want to gamble and cough up the money for an all new, ground up Viper.


The US dollar and the Aus $ have a good chance of being at 1 to 1 in the next 2-5 years. Just look at how far the US$ has fallen against the Canadian dollar.

5 years ago the Aus$ was 55¢ today it is 83¢
5 years ago the Can$ was 64¢ today it is 97¢
5 years ago the Euro was 98¢ today it is $1.39

That's not everyone's currency going up, that's ours going down. The only currencies not rising against the US dollar are those closely tied to ours, those artificially held down by their governments, or those economies and/or contries money policies that are actually worse than ours.

Isn't the G8 going to be built in Canada after a year or so at the same plant as the Camaro? I think that is the consideration. At that time, maybe they reevaluate the Ute to see if it makes sense for the US market.

When the Zeta Pontiac is made in Canada, GM will be able to return the Grand Prix name since Oshawa had the same "exclusive" mandate on the name that Ste. Therese had on the Camaro & Firebird names.

The Zeta program is set up to also make small numbers of niche cars profitably, so a rebodied Ute as an El Camino is probally a safe bet.

Soooooo... What in the Hell happend to the G8 GT comming around $30-32K nicely equipped??? Now people are thinking 35+??? NO Way!!!

I want this car BAD but if it gets that high I might have to re-consider... I mean, at that point why not just get the CTS???

The GTO had an MSRP around 32500. The top G8 will undoubtedly be better equipped and higher priced. The difference between $32K and $35K might just be moonroof and Nav. A can can be nicely equipped without those two features.

What happened to the Ute being called something other than El Camino?

What happened to the Ute being called something other than El Camino?

Names can be changed even after the publicity photos are taken, so I'm not about to gamble on what the name will be.

While I won't discount the El Camino name sticking (that's what it's being refered to as), but I will discount the GMC names (Caballero & Sprint for example) as not likely.

Im game with the 'build it in north america' gameplan. I think then, when built beside G8/Camaro/possibly Impala, it could be called an El Camino.

Names can be changed even after the publicity photos are taken, so I'm not about to gamble on what the name will be.

While I won't discount the El Camino name sticking (that's what it's being refered to as), but I will discount the GMC names (Caballero & Sprint for example) as not likely.


Haha, with all the earlier talk of the Ute not being an El Camino, I was wondering what brand the Ute would fit in. Chevy wouldn't be the greatest idea, because people would expect a camino. Buick and Saturn are definite no's. Pontiac was what I was expecting, but I never gave one thought to GMC. It's easily forgotten by me, I'm not a truck guy ;)

But the idea of a GMC Ute sounds very appropriate to me, just on the general out-of-left-field approach, and the whole bed thing...lol. GMC could have a sports car, and still be a truck company...:bow:

GM has been taunting and torturing me with this for several decades now.
I wish they'd just decide to either import the Ute or build an El Camino in Oshawa. I've waited twenty years already, so I can wait a bit longer, but this rollercoaster is getting on my last nerve.:mad:

GM has been taunting and torturing me with this for several decades now.
I wish they'd just decide to either import the Ute or build an El Camino in Oshawa. I've waited twenty years already, so I can wait a bit longer, but this rollercoaster is getting on my last nerve.:mad:

I'd still give the Holden Ute well beyond a 75% chance of actually making the trip over just ahead of the Camaro. The question is if it's going to be marketed as a modest priced sports hauler or an expensive, loaded niche vehicle.

It's too far away to say for certain about the 2011 El Camino, but development costs wouldn't be the reason if it didn't happen.

I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. On the one hand, I want the ute to come here yesterday. On the other, since GM doesn't intend to sell the Ute as a Chevy El Camino, I would be fine with waiting for the Oshawa-built Chevy. The upside of waiting would be that the future of a GMNA vehicle wouldn't be tied to the success or failure of an oddly-badged Holden import. I'd be happy just knowing that an El Camino is coming via an official announcement.

As long as one of them shows up, I expect to own an example.

I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. On the one hand, I want the ute to come here yesterday. On the other, since GM doesn't intend to sell the Ute as a Chevy El Camino, I would be fine with waiting for the Oshawa-built Chevy. The upside of waiting would be that the future of a GMNA vehicle wouldn't be tied to the success or failure of an oddly-badged Holden import. I'd be happy just knowing that an El Camino is coming via an official announcement.

As long as one of them shows up, I expect to own an example.

Buy the Ute when it gets here (no matter the badge). That way it shows GM that there is a market for it. Then trade it in for an Elky when it arrives! :D

By the way, do you currently own one? I assume so from your screen name - 1970 SS?

Soooooo... What in the Hell happend to the G8 GT comming around $30-32K nicely equipped??? Now people are thinking 35+??? NO Way!!!

I want this car BAD but if it gets that high I might have to re-consider... I mean, at that point why not just get the CTS???

Cadillac's CTS bases at 32K, but it isn't going to be the one you want. The Direct injected V6 alone will send the price to 35K. Add the performance package (again, alone) and you're now at $40,000. And you haven't even gotten to any "nice" items like sunroof, upgraded stereo, or even a spare tire ($250.... check their website).

Unless you must have the Cadillac name, the G8 is still a superior deal.


Civilian Dodge Charger V6s are starting at $27,000 (the stripped down fleet versions still run 22K).

A Dodge Charger with a V8 begins at over $31,000 now. Again.... BEGINS at over $31,000.

The G8 GT is not by any means, shape, form, or fashion, going to come in at $30-32K nicely equpted. A BASE Grand Prix GXP starts at $30K. A loaded G6 GXP will touch $30K

Dodge sold over 72,000 Chargers during the 1st 8 months of this year.

Pontiac only plans to sell 50-60,000 G8s over an entire year.

Not only will Pontiac most probally sell all the G8s they can unload off boats at Charger prices for the V6 and above Charger prices for the V8, but I wouldn't hold my breath for incentives on these cars either.

When pricing is announced, expect the G8 V6 model to start within a few hundred of the $27,000 mark. The V8 model will start at least at the $32,000 mark, but don't be shocked to see stickers over the $35,000 mark.....and that's before the inevitable Pontiac dealer "treatment" on pricing.

If you're smart you won't buy anything GM imports from AUS

If you're smart you won't buy anything GM imports from AUS

So since you own a GTO, then you are not smart?:D

Buy the Ute when it gets here (no matter the badge). That way it shows GM that there is a market for it. Then trade it in for an Elky when it arrives! :D

By the way, do you currently own one? I assume so from your screen name - 1970 SS?


That's the plan.

I owned a '70 454 SS 4spd. El Camino an long time ago, and would like to find an LS6 car some day. I also bought an '87 El Camino SS as my first new car - sadly that one and the '70 are long gone. Right now I own my third and fourth El Caminos, both are '77s. One I am restoring/modifying and the other is essentially a parts car. I'm planning on a Ramjet 350 for the project car.

So since you own a GTO, then you are not smart?:D
How do you think I got this smart? ;)

How do you think I got this smart? ;)

F*CK you got rid of the GTO and got ANOTHER car?!:eek:

You need to just work for a dealership and drive their cars as often as you get new ones!

F*CK you got rid of the GTO and got ANOTHER car?!:eek:

You need to just work for a dealership and drive their cars as often as you get new ones!
No, I have the GTO still. I just have my fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong with it for a while.

No, I have the GTO still. I just have my fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong with it for a while.

Well, knowing your history it wasn't a far off assessment.

No, I have the GTO still. I just have my fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong with it for a while.

Why would you be worried about that? I'm sure that GM fully supports the car in the event of a breakdown. EDIT: Never mind, I just read the backordered thread in the GTO forum. Daaaayuuum! And I thought dealing with SLP when they moved their Firehawk support to Toms River was bad!