Nissan leads the list in "bad bets" to make it to 200K.

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103446/drive-your-car-to-death-save-31,000

Wow! Three of the top 10 are from Nissan! Now, this could be because owners realize what an ugly POS they have and drive them into the nearest telephone pole. I know I was behind an Infiniti version of the Armada and thought it looked like something my kids would make with Legos. :D

Humm...funny how CR is routinely bashed on this board as being part of the vast anti-domestic/media bias conspiracy yet is apparently a worthy source of information when is says something a poster wants to read...no inconsistency there. :confused:

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:

Calm down Robert, I'm sure the thread starter wasn't attacking you by attacking a Nissan.....

Humm...funny how CR is routinely bashed on this board as being part of the vast anti-domestic/media bias conspiracy yet is apparently a worthy source of information when is says something a poster wants to read...no inconsistency there. :confused:

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:There's a thread about this in the lounge and people are still bashing CR and their "methods." There are also plenty of comments in the Autoblog column about this article.

You're not just upset because the OP just bashed the looks of your daily ride, are you? :think:

:p

There's a thread about this in the lounge and people are still bashing CR and their "methods." There are also plenty of comments in the Autoblog column about this article.

You're not just upset because the OP just bashed the looks of your daily ride, are you? :think:

:p
Oh I'm sure as Wilson pointed out that he wasn't attacking me but he certainly went out of his way to attack Nissan and the QX.

I don't know what Nissan has ever done to him but I find it interesting that someone who has belonged to the board for over eight years and has only posted a little over 300 times would take the time to attack Nissan and use CR as his source to do so! :D

The Infinity QX56 is horrendously ugly though. I've always thought that.

All three of those Nissans share the same powertrain, right?

I am surprised that some Buick didn't make the best bet list. 200k mid-90s Buick Le-Crappies that still run decently are pretty easy to come by. Too bad owning the car that long would drive you insane with boredom.:)

QX and Armada are ugly. Yep. Sorry, Robert.

It just looks to me like it has down syndrome, with the droopy eyes and all. To me, if you're paying that kind of money for something, styling faux-pas seem downright silly. Cadillac still reigns the day in large SUVs IMO, but to each their own...

Oh I'm sure as Wilson pointed out that he wasn't attacking me but he certainly went out of his way to attack Nissan and the QX.

I don't know what Nissan has ever done to him but I find it interesting that someone who has belonged to the board for over eight years and has only posted a little over 300 times would take the time to attack Nissan and use CR as his source to do so! :D

Posts have been pruned many times through the years. Each time, post counts go down.

edit: thats not to say that being a post whore gives credibility. I didnt mean to imply that.

I'm sure all the most good list cars will make it longer than the bad list, but as far as 200,000 it all depends on how it is maintained and how it is driven. Titan that is used to plow snow 10,000 a year then left to site all summer isn't going to make it to 200,000, but one that is driven 50,000 hwy miles a year most likely will have no problem.

The list loses credibility with me because it doesn't have an F-250/350 or Silverados on there. They easily can make it to 250,000. Ford Taurus is another car that I've seen a lot of real life examples of making it to 200,000+ same goes for most GM 3800 cars.

It just looks to me like it has down syndrome, with the droopy eyes and all. To me, if you're paying that kind of money for something, styling faux-pas seem downright silly. Cadillac still reigns the day in large SUVs IMO, but to each their own...
There is never much point in arguing about a vehicle's looks unless the only point is to simply argue - it's always a useless and un-winnable argument.

I don't happen to like the looks of/the direction GM took with the Fifth Gen but so what…what does it really matter if I like the design or not or how may others do or don't? And how do you prove someone is right or wrong on a totally subjective issue?

Likewise, I don't really care who does or doesn't like the looks of the QX especially by those who would never buy it anyway; I don't drive it for their approval.

I’ve enjoyed my QX; 12,000 miles in less than five months including a road trip in July down Route66 with not a single problem; all while getting 16.5-17 MPG on the interstate without ever seeing anything less than 75MPH…I’ve no complaints with how it’s served me so far.

In TA76's case, he just seems to hate Nissan because he hates Nissan and apparently is willing to use any source of data to make himself feel good about it; even CR.

I don't know if he thinks Nissan is responsible for all that's wrong in the world or if he just got beet by a Z some time in the past and has never recovered of if he simply is incapable of rational thought about any vehicle that doesn't fit neatly into his little world. At any rate, I see no reason not to call him on it :bow:

In TA76's case, he just seems to hate Nissan because he hates Nissan and apparently is willing to use any source of data to make himself feel good about it.

Or, maybe he was just pointing out that Nissan "won", err, lost the category by placing three vehicles in it, more than any other manufacturer.....and then gave an opinion on one of them. Again, I think you're making it sound much more sinister than was really intended. I guess we'll only know if he responds. God forbid someone have an opinion 'round here. :)

How a vehicle looks is no indication of how long it will last anyway, so what's the point....

Or, maybe he was just pointing out that Nissan "won", err, lost the category by placing three vehicles in it, more than any other manufacturer.....and then gave an opinion on one of them. Again, I think you're making it sound much more sinister than was really intended. I guess we'll only know if he responds. God forbid someone have an opinion 'round here. :)

How a vehicle looks is no indication of how long it will last anyway, so what's the point....
You might think differently if you looked at some of his contribution to the board...one that probably containes the sum of his wisdom is this little gem...Nissan Sucks!

There is nothing wrong with opinions but opinions based on hatred or on nothing at all are as worthless as those who hold them.

One last note; QX56 sales are up 55.1% this year over last...apparently those people don't read CR (or turn to TA76) for their vehicle advice. :D

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:

Not a single domestic made either list; typical of CR to ignore them altogether.

Not a single domestic made either list; typical of CR to ignore them altogether.

:lol: So true.

Not a single domestic made either list; typical of CR to ignore them altogether.

:lol:

Honestly I believe my Cobalt will last longer than our 2005 Sentra Spec-V. But the seats in the Spec-V are so freakin nice. If the car does die ill claiming them.

15 years eh? By the time Camaro returns and I'm ready to purchase one, my Z28 will be 15 years old. It won't have 200,000 miles on it though. Heck it won't even have 100,000 miles on it. :D

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:

Note the domestics aren't in either catagory. It's like they were just ignored.

Dan

Humm...funny how CR is routinely bashed on this board as being part of the vast anti-domestic/media bias conspiracy yet is apparently a worthy source of information when is says something a poster wants to read...no inconsistency there. :confused:
If it makes you feel any better I still think CR is retarded and is part of the anti-scientific conspiracy. ;)

If it makes you feel any better I still think CR is retarded and is part of the anti-scientific conspiracy. ;)
I'm glad to know there is at least one constant in the universe!!! :cool:

The list loses credibility with me because it doesn't have an F-250/350 or Silverados on there. They easily can make it to 250,000.

You see a fair number of high-mileage pickups because there were a lot of them sold. As a percentage of total sales, I'm betting that not many pickups make it to the far side of 200K. To be fair, though, there are many of them out there with "only" 100K on the odometer and 20 years of use and abuse.

You see a fair number of high-mileage pickups because there were a lot of them sold. As a percentage of total sales, I'm betting that not many pickups make it to the far side of 200K. To be fair, though, there are many of them out there with "only" 100K on the odometer and 20 years of use and abuse.


My parents farm truck is a 92 dodge Ram with a V8 in it.(sorry, dont know the size). It has *only* 82,xxx miles on it. About 20,000 are highway. The rest would be split 50/50 between city miles and pulling tractors out of ditches/running around in fields with a bed full of crap miles.

But I would consider it pretty dependiable.

Posts have been pruned many times through the years. Each time, post counts go down.

Yes all boards prune threads. But I don't know of a single board where the members lose post counts when that happens. The post counter is not tied to the actual post made; it is simply incremented each time the user makes a post.

Humm...funny how CR is routinely bashed on this board as being part of the vast anti-domestic/media bias conspiracy yet is apparently a worthy source of information when is says something a poster wants to read...no inconsistency there. :confused:

You act as if "this board" as if it was one single person that has to behave the same way in every situation. The board is actually made up of thousands of posters ... some believe CR is full of sh|t and post that way; others think it's the gospel and post that way. You just think everyone is out to get you ;)

You act as if "this board" as if it was one single person that has to behave the same way in every situation. The board is actually made up of thousands of posters ... some believe CR is full of sh|t and post that way; others think it's the gospel and post that way. You just think everyone is out to get you ;)
I thought there were only two or three members???

The discussion of the "media bias" and the overall stupidity of the automotive press has been held many, many times on this board and CR has been pointed out often as an example of that bias and stupidity. There are many vocal members here who love to claim that bias whenever a publication says something they don't agree with but are slow to offer any real evidence of the claimed widespread bias. Then sometime later, they will turn around and cite the same publication/author as a source when it says something they agree with.

If there is a significant contingent of members who do not blindly accept that the media is biased against domestic manufacturers then they have done little to share that position - if they choose to remain silent, then their positions don’t make much of a difference do they?

At any rate, if you were to bother to look at the OP's history it will not take you long to conclude why he posted what he did and that fostering intelligent discussion was probably not first on the list (probably not on the list at all). It also was probably not because he thinks CR is a reliable source of data which is why I pointed out the inconsistency in the first place.

If the OP has a reason, other than hatred, for making his posting...there is nothing to stop him from saying so.

He is entitled to his opinions but as I said eralier, opinions based on hatred or on nothing of substance at all are as worthless as those who hold them.

I wonder, if someone had been recording all along, what the average odometer reading would be for cars entering the junkyard, categorized by engine.

I think the SBC and the 3800 would have a hefty lead over everything else.

I wonder, if someone had been recording all along, what the average odometer reading would be for cars entering the junkyard, categorized by engine.

I think the SBC and the 3800 would have a hefty lead over everything else.


I call bias on your opinion..show me fact on that the SBC and the 3800, though they might be two of the most popular engine choices GM ever made I want fact and not bias opinion.

Though its hard to put fact to an opinion...:rolleyes:


hehehe

Yes all boards prune threads. But I don't know of a single board where the members lose post counts when that happens. The post counter is not tied to the actual post made; it is simply incremented each time the user makes a post.

This site and memphisracingscene.com are the first two that come to mind.

I think the SBC and the 3800 would have a hefty lead over everything else.

I sincerely hope you're not averaging in all of the SBCs made through the 70s and early-/mid-80s. My goodness, were there some problems throughout that period of time. GM's V8s have gotten far better since then; the 350 that I'm yanking from my recently-decommissioned '92 Roadmaster wagon was still going strong after 242,000 miles.

Especially the 305's. They just dont die!

Especially the 305's. They just dont die!

Especially the ones from the early 80s that could wipe the lobes off the camshaft inside 50,000 miles ;)

It seems to me that any decent vehicle should be able to last until 200K miles...I suspect that for most of the vehicles that don't make that mark (excluding accidents of course) don't make it either because they were abused, not maintained properly or both.

In other words, a list like this is pretty worthless - statisticts can't tell the whole story.

Especially the ones from the early 80s that could wipe the lobes off the camshaft inside 50,000 miles ;)

Yep - my friends and I replaced a few of those during our youth (cars from the late-70s/early-80s were what we ended up with as affordable high-school beaters). The old 267 small block (common in that era) also chewed up cams. Let's not forget those wonderful nylon-overmolded timing gear sets, too.

Let's not try to glamorize the durability of any engine from that particular era. They were crap, plain and simple, and getting to 100K without major work wasn't really all that common. 200K on an engine built anytime much prior to the 90s was really impressive. Engine durability has come a long way in a relative short amount of time, and without a doubt has been helped greatly by electronic engine management.

Especially the ones from the early 80s that could wipe the lobes off the camshaft inside 50,000 miles ;)

But during that era, if it wasn't the cam it WAS something else, lol!

My Exploder just past past 201K and while this vehicle seemed to eat the miles easily I've had several cars in the past that were in far worse shape at only 100K. I've always joked that this Explorer was built on a Wed Morning. To me that's not really too off as from what I can tell on the vehicles that didn't make it this far they had numerous problems along the way. '85 Chrysler Laser and '86 Pontiac 6000 LE. Those cars has other issues before engine problems doomed them. I know neither one is a great vehicle but the '90 Bonneville I had after was not either and I bet it's still running. So is it the vehicle or how its built?

I call bias on your opinion..show me fact on that the SBC and the 3800, though they might be two of the most popular engine choices GM ever made I want fact and not bias opinion.

Though its hard to put fact to an opinion...:rolleyes:
If you go back and read my post again, you'll note that I was wishing that someone had been recording the numbers all along so that I could prove my theory.


I sincerely hope you're not averaging in all of the SBCs made through the 70s and early-/mid-80s.

True. From 1990-ish on, though, the SBC has been a very solid motor.

In TA76's case, he just seems to hate Nissan because he hates Nissan and apparently is willing to use any source of data to make himself feel good about it; even CR.

I don't know if he thinks Nissan is responsible for all that's wrong in the world or if he just got beet by a Z some time in the past and has never recovered of if he simply is incapable of rational thought about any vehicle that doesn't fit neatly into his little world. At any rate, I see no reason not to call him on it :bow:

Well, I'll be happy to reply. First, I don't really hate Nissan. That said, I would NEVER buy one new or used. Honestly, I consider them a third rate player in the car game. I can't think of a single model they have ever produced that I like.

I have been a member for a long time and yes some years ago the board was reset and we lost our post count. Big deal, why does post count matter so much to you Robert? Is that how you define your self-worth? Does it make you feel like a big man? If so, great for you... means nothing to me.

I just got tired of reading Robert's (aka RedZed) negative post. I might be wrong but he seems to revel in any downturn for the domestics and is all too eager to wave the flag for the Asians (especially Nissan because he works for them). I'm just giving him a dose of his own medicine.

As for using CR, one of the principles taught in Sun Tzu's "Art of War" is that your enemy's enemy is your friend. ;)

BTW-I have never been beat by a POS Z! :D

…
I agree that post counts don’t mean very much, especially if ad hominem attacks are the primary component of your posts. I am pleased, however, that CamaroZ28.com can provide you with a platform to spout off and attack people you don’t know; how nice of them and all the folks to maintain this site for your little personal vendettas; especially for someone who isn't even a supporting member!

If you bothered to actually do a little research on your own, you would see that I am not whoever “redzed” is/was…there are people on this board who know me and some of my history. Perhaps, for a change of pace, you should consider finding real facts before you launch attacks on people…just a thought.

I’m not here to bash or prop up GM or any other manufacturer; it’s rather obvious that the reason you think my posts are “negative” is because you don’t like what they say but you find it easier to attack the poster than do anything of real substance. I suppose you think that the WSJ, Barron’s, Automotive News, Detroit News and others should just say nice things about the domestic industry regardless of what is actually happening and if they don’t say nice things they should just be ignored???

If a world where everything but good news is ignored is the world you want to live in that’s your choice – some people actually prefer to know what is going on and to have intelligent discussions about it; not just ignore it or attack people they don’t know.

I can’t help but wonder how many new domestic vehicles you’ve purchased in the last, say, five-seven years while GM, Ford and Chrysler have been struggling…if you are supporting, with your actual dollars, the domestic industry you feel so protective of or if it’s all just lip-service on an internet board.

Oh…it’s Ok that you consider Nissan a “third-rate” player and that you won’t ever buy one – I doubt Nissan needs your business.

Sheesh, I'm flattered you put so much thought and effort into a reply. Honestly though, I didn't really read it in detail as it looked to be just more of the same inane drivel that you so frequently post. I have better things to do with my time. :)

Seriously, please answer these questions:

1-It is obvious you are biased toward Nissan, what is your affiliation?

2-It is also obvious you dislike the domestics, why and do you post here?

I've asked these before with no direct answer, how about you come clean with us?

..
Really…no need to feel flattered; it doesn’t take much thought to reply to you.

Your questions haven't been answered because 1) abusive, insulting people who are only interested in attacking others haven’t earned the courtesy of answers to questions and 2) whatever you want to know about me or what I think (about the industry, about domestic and non-domestic brands and other topics/issues) you can learn form my posts (and if you can’t be "bothered" to read them for yourself I see no reason why I should do the work for you).

As I mentioned in my last post (I’m sure you missed it since you didn’t bother to read it in detail), I can’t help but wonder if your support for GM is all just lip service…I wonder how many new domestic vehicles you’ve purchased in the last, say, seven years or so while the domestic industry has been struggling?

While it’s certainly not a prerequisite to own or have ever owned a domestic vehicle (or any vehicle at all for that matter) to be a member of this board and post here, I can at least say that I’ve put my money on the table for domestic vehicles many times and primarily GM vehicles – so I can't help but wonder if your support of GM includes your own actual dollars spent on new GM vehicles or if your “support’ is limited to internet posts attacking strangers who’s opinions you don’t like?

Maybe this is a better question; have you ever actually read Sun Tzu or are you just repeating a reference you herd while watching TV?

It’s very easy to attack someone while hiding behind the anonymity of a keyboard and an internet connection…it’s very easy to attack a person rather than engage in actual debate…much easier than actually offering opinion backed by original thought.

You seem to have the easy part down pat.

Especially the 305's. They just dont die!

My '88 chevy 305TBI pickup had 17 years and 230,000 miles on it when it was "totaled" in an accident. I was kinda bummed, because it wasn't even using oil and was still on the original auto trans. But some guy bought it, fixed it, and it's STILL going... :usa:

blah... blah... blah...
Maybe this is a better question; have you ever actually read Sun Tzu or are you just repeating a reference you herd while watching TV?
more blah... blah... blah...


Yes, I own and have read the book. Would you like to see a photo of it on my bookshelf? No anonymity here pal, if you want to find out who I am simply visit the link on the bottom of my post. A little detective work on your part is all that is required.

I have no doubt you know a lot about the auto industry, my gripe is your anti-domestic, Nissan biased views spouted here. I think this thread has more than proved that point. All I needed to do was layout a neat little trap with some negative news about your beloved Nissan and you come out swinging. It was like shooting fish in a barrel!

Still waiting on that answer regarding you and Nissan...

Yes, I own and have read the book. Would you like to see a photo of it on my bookshelf? No anonymity here pal, if you want to find out who I am simply visit the link on the bottom of my post. A little detective work on your part is all that is required.

I have no doubt you know a lot about the auto industry, my gripe is your anti-domestic, Nissan biased views spouted here. I think this thread has more than proved that point. All I needed to do was layout a neat little trap with some negative news about your beloved Nissan and you come out swinging. It was like shooting fish in a barrel!

Still waiting on that answer regarding you and Nissan...
I’ve answered that question before for others here and if you approached me as an adult and asked (rather than like a child laying your “traps”) I’d probably answer you as well (not that it's really anyone's business who I work for or don't work for). As I've said, however, you haven’t earned the courtesy of an answer.

I’m also again, pleased that the founders of CamaroZ28.com created this forum for you so you can lay your “traps” and attack people you don’t know…I’m sure that’s what they intended.

I suppose in your mind, it makes sense to expect me to "research" you even while you have admitted you can't be bothered to do the same...well, it doesn't work that way.

As to your “link”; what is that supposed to “tell” me exactly? I belong to the MTFBA and a half-dozen other automotive related clubs…so what? Is that supposed to prove something? Am I supposed to be impressed that you belong to an F-Body club?

You may find this difficult to understand or even believe but there are people on this board, who appreciate and support GM but who do not think that the sun rises and sets only over GM’s headquarters or because of what GM does or does not do - they actually buy both GM and (don’t faint) other nameplate vehicles (even some non-domestic brands…Oh my God…even some dreaded “Asian” brands) and who do not believe that all other nameplates and all other vehicles aside from GM are, as you so eloquently put it, a “POS”.

There are people here, who can appreciate a vehicle even if it doesn’t happen to wear a GM nameplate or even a domestic nameplate; who can acknowledge and discuss the good and the bad about any vehicle and engage in, sometimes even heated, dialogue, regardless of nameplate and do so without resorting to infantile name-calling; they can actually engage in conversation and discussion and be passionate about GM and even vehemently disagree with other posters' opinions and do not feel the need to engage in personal attacks when someone posts something they don’t agree with. They can even face facts about GM and the domestic industry even if those facts don’t paint a rosy picture or tend to disagree with their opinions or their wants.

Obviously, you aren’t one of those people.

I would usually never ask this of anyone here because as I said, it certainly is not a prerequisite to be here and post here but surely, a self-appointed guardian of GM against those who might have something positive to say for another make (especially the evil Nissan)...someone as “supportive” and as vocal as you must have several new or fairly new GM/domestic vehicles in your driveway, correct? So I wonder once again, how many new GM and/or domestic industry produced vehicles have you bought while GM/Ford/Chrysler have been struggling to stay afloat? Is your “support” limited to your mouth and keyboard only or do you put your money where you mouth is?

P.S. I can't think of anything that would prove to me you've actually read it but I suppose a picture would be a start along with the ISBN and the page number of the reference. Whether you've read it or not, you have at least proven the "value" you place on your own convictions in that you are willing to ignore them if doing so gives you ammunition for laying a childish "trap".

huh, my gf's 95 maxima must be one of the lucky ones at 278,000 miles....

You see a fair number of high-mileage pickups because there were a lot of them sold. As a percentage of total sales, I'm betting that not many pickups make it to the far side of 200K. To be fair, though, there are many of them out there with "only" 100K on the odometer and 20 years of use and abuse.

my 96 ram 2500 cummins turbo diesel currently has 375k :bow: and counting...

So if you want something that can run up and over 1,000,000 miles.
GET A CUMMINS.
There are plenty of cummins with over 500k
and even some with 900k.

Plus 17mpg ain't bad, I've seen as high as 21mpg.
after pump timing, it should be in the 20's all the time

"I'm Lovin' It"

So if you want something that can run up and over 1,000,000 miles.
GET A CUMMINS.


Engine longevity no longer concerns me - it's body rot and accidents that I worry about here in the Midwest. That's a shame, too, since I don't mind doing a bit of motor work now and then. Rust repair, on the other hand... :mad:

Humm...funny how CR is routinely bashed on this board as being part of the vast anti-domestic/media bias conspiracy yet is apparently a worthy source of information when is says something a poster wants to read...no inconsistency there. :confused:

I also note that not a single domestic vehicle made the "Good Bets" list...I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eek:

The report is noteworthy. If you think that CR is biased against domestic makers, it's noteworthy that they don't think much of some of these Nissan models. If you don't think that CR is biased, then it's still noteworthy.

The only way it's not noteworthy is if you think CR has no clue but is not biased.

It's also noteworthy that you post with such a chip on your shoulder in the first reply. What's up with that?

Also, your post seems to imply that the posters have some sort of unity of opinion on the value and biases of CR. That's most surely wrong.

...
Noteworthy?

Maybe; however I suspect there would be very few here who would consider it noteworthy if a majority of the “top 10 worst bets” were GM vehicles and I doubt, in such a case, that the article would ever see the light of day on the board.

For the sake of discussion; let’s assume all the “top 10 worst best” were domestics and a majority of those were GM nameplated vehicles. Let’s then assume I posted it and entitled the post “GM leads the list in “bad bets” to make it to 200K” and went on in the post to comment on what an ugly POS one of the GM models on the list happened to be.

How do you think such a post would be received by everyone here? Do you think they would consider the article noteworthy?

I don’t; in fact, I suspect I’d be banned from the board.

At any rate, I never said the opinion (either way) about CR’s value as a publication and/or its insight into vehicles was universal or in lock-step but Consumer Reports is routinely bashed on this board and just as routinely noted as a publication that is especially biased against domestic vehicles…you may not believe that and you may not see CR that way and that's Ok but that doesn’t mean my observation is incorrect.

I don’t necessarily believe that CR is biased against domestic vehicles (stupid but not biased)…I'm a subscriber and I use CR when I’m ready to buy a toaster or washing machine or interior paint but when it comes to their advice about vehicles they leave a LOT to be desired.

However, CR's credability was not really the point of my post anyway.

The point of the post was to call the OP on his hypocrisy of using CR as his “source” in order to show that he ONLY posted it to insult me (which he has already admitted is exactly what he did). He didn't post it because he thought the story was noteworthy and deserved discussion; he posted it because he could use it to bash Nissan and insult me (I guess he has little to do for entertainment).

He seems to have a real burr up his rear-end about me (this is not a first time for him doing something like this) as apparently I'm not "pro GM" enough for him because I don't fawn over everything GM does and actually have positive things to say about other nameplates, including evil Asian nameplates.

One of the reasons I come to this board is that for the most part, those who post here are thoughtful, informed, experienced, intelligent and in-tune with the automotive industry/interests…I’d don’t mind suffering a few who don’t share those traits.

The point of the post was to call the OP on his hypocrisy of using CR as his “source” in order to show that he ONLY posted it to insult me (which he has already admitted is exactly what he did). He didn't post it because he thought the story was noteworthy and deserved discussion; he posted it because he could use it to bash Nissan and insult me (I guess he has little to do for entertainment).

He seems to have a real burr up his rear-end about me (this is not a first time for him doing something like this) as apparently I'm not "pro GM" enough for him because I don't fawn over everything GM does and actually have positive things to say about other nameplates, including evil Asian nameplates.

One of the reasons I come to this board is that for the most part, those who post here are thoughtful, informed, experienced, intelligent and in-tune with the automotive industry/interests…I’d don’t mind suffering a few who don’t share those traits.

I'm sure I've missed out on some of the interpersonal goings-on, and I didn't read this whole thread before replying (usually a mistake). I see from your signature that you have two new Nissans (not cheap models), so I guess I can see why you consider an attack on Nissan an attack on you (who knows -- Nashville, two nice new Nissans, apparent identification with Nissan: maybe you work for them :shrug: ).

It just seemed like you were reading a lot into the original post.

Anyway, back to the title of the thread (regardless of the intent behind starting it), it does seem that the Titan and derivatives have had their share of problems. To the best of my knowledge, the Infiniti FM products have all been pretty solid, though. I've liked the G35 ever since it came out, though I didn't care for the location of the power seat controls on the 1st gen.

There are people here, who can appreciate a vehicle even if it doesn’t happen to wear a GM nameplate or even a domestic nameplate; who can acknowledge and discuss the good and the bad about any vehicle and engage in, sometimes even heated, dialogue, regardless of nameplate and do so without resorting to infantile name-calling; they can actually engage in conversation and discussion and be passionate about GM and even vehemently disagree with other posters' opinions and do not feel the need to engage in personal attacks when someone posts something they don’t agree with. They can even face facts about GM and the domestic industry even if those facts don’t paint a rosy picture or tend to disagree with their opinions or their wants.
I don't typically comment much on the personal side of things here. But I've got to say, I believe you have some learning to do, about posting on a board like this. It's clear from your sigblock, you're a major Nissan fan. Obviously there's nothing wrong with that. Nissan makes some fine cars. But I believe that visiting and posting on a forum is a lot like visiting someone in their garage. A guy in our neighborhood has an Acura in his garage. I've chatted with him there. I would NEVER diss his car in his garage. If he drove over to my garage, I might challenge him to a 'revving contest' to see whose car sounds cooler when you rev it up a little. Again I'd expect him to show some decorum, take it in good humor, or leave. Same way with this board. Import owners/fans, IMHO, should not come in a place like this with a chip on their shoulder, all defensive about Asian makes being criticized... and even more importantly, should not lash out at domestic makes here. I was accused in another thread of 'trying to justify my choice of a Grand Prix GXP' or 'trying to make myself feel better' about it. That struck me as quite odd. I post about my car, and compare it to others, BECAUSE I'm already very proud of it and the choice I made. You shouldn't be the least bit surprised, if you get an unpleasant reaction from GM fans, when you post like you do.

As for the theme of the thread - I'm not really surprised at the results. They show what I've already learned - the import makes (Nissan in particular) don't have a mythological huge advantage in quality or longevity, despite what our wonderful import-biased mass media would like the sheeple to believe :rolleyes:

If you go back and read my post again, you'll note that I was wishing that someone had been recording the numbers all along so that I could prove my theory..

Lol just joking with you there man! ;)

I'm sure I've missed out on some of the interpersonal goings-on, and I didn't read this whole thread before replying (usually a mistake). I see from your signature that you have two new Nissans (not cheap models), so I guess I can see why you consider an attack on Nissan an attack on you (who knows -- Nashville, two nice new Nissans, apparent identification with Nissan: maybe you work for them :shrug: ).

It just seemed like you were reading a lot into the original post.

Anyway, back to the title of the thread (regardless of the intent behind starting it), it does seem that the Titan and derivatives have had their share of problems. To the best of my knowledge, the Infiniti FM products have all been pretty solid, though. I've liked the G35 ever since it came out, though I didn't care for the location of the power seat controls on the 1st gen.
I wasn't reading anything into his original post; my take on his post and reasons for posting it was accurate; he confirmed, later in the thread, that it was accurate and were you to look up just a hand-full of his more recent posts (including a couple of threads he has started) his intent would become very clear to you as well.

.....
Until someone can come up with substantial, indipendent evidence of the alleged "media bias" I'm just going to call bovine scatology on the claims.

Regarding the remainder of you post, there is a difference between "unplesant reactions" and personal attacks...there is a difference between attacking a particular model of vehicle or a nameplate and calling it a POS and pointing out a vehicle's shortcomings...there is a difference between lashing out at domestic makes and pointing out facts (or even opinions for that matter when they are identified as such) without using flame bait language.

I've likely owned more F-Bodies and more GM vehicles and owned them for more years than most people here but if people want to base their opinion of me on something as superficial as my "signature" and what I happen to own at the moment then who am I to argue. :bow:

...sheeple...

:D

THAT'S MY WORD!
Ya like it?!?! :cool:
I agree completely with your last sentence too BTW.

Back to the thread...
* I respectfully agree with the assessment of the report.
* I also respectfully agree with R.N. on views related to Sino-American relations, though we tend to diverge as we move away from that topic, and I don't agree with his position in this thread - my opinion.
* The point I have not yet seen made in this thread is that ALL foreign marques have either slid or at least "not progressed" in quality when compared to domestics in the last few years. I think Domestics have really kicked it into gear regarding quality and durability, while imports have concentrated on gaining market share and breaching into Americana (like Toyota getting into NASCAR for example).

All one has to do is look at the fall of Mercedes-Benz from ANY of the top lists in the last decade to see that it's not a short-term blurb. BMW was just unseated, even Lexus has a tie with Buick... there's signs galore that things are changing... it's just whether or not you want to accept the changes or fight them on this internet chalkboard.

BTW - I have gloated many times about the longevity of my vehicles.
2.9L auto with 368k miles in a 4x4 Bronco II is my crown-jewel.
89 5.0 Mustang with 234K hard miles on it (and in the parking lot today)
91 Explorer 4x4 at 265k miles
95 Explorer 4x4 at 262k miles (wife drives it daily to this day despite my offer of a Mustang or another Explorer to replace it - she simply loves it)
94 Mustang at 202k
93 Mustang (4-cyl no less!) at 172k
I can go on and on about numerous other vehicles that have well-exceeded the 100 or 200k mark for me, but I personally think the secret is in good maintenance and care. Preventive maintenance too, not just "fixing it after it breaks".
IMO, most all powerplants are designed fairly well and tested thoroughly before they ever reach the market. Only in rare situations should there be any kind of design short-coming that would cause premature engine failure. I personally attribute the longevity for newer vehicles to new technology - both in tracking and reminding operators to perform maintenance as well as technology in lubricants and metallurgy. There's my 2-bits on the engine-life thing. Heck, I have more issues with stone-chipped windshields and paint than anything else.:rolleyes:

Until someone can come up with substantial, indipendent evidence of the alleged "media bias" I'm just going to call bovine scatology on the claims.


With all due respect, until you can come up with substantial, independent evidence proving that media bias does NOT exist, I am calling equine scatology.

So where does this leave us? :shrug:

Short of some writer actually admitting that he hates domestics and bashes them at every opportunity (which would be political suicide for his career), how do you even propose that I or anyone else set out to "prove" that there is a widespread slant towards bashing domestics? You are nested in a caveat that is virtually unproveable because it is a subjective accusation in the first place.

It's like trying to "prove" your mother-in-law is a pain in the neck... it depends on who you ask and how you quantify the response. The old bag wants to spend a week with you in your house... probably not a big problem for your wife, but you and the kids might disagree. So is this a democratic persuit in which the most votes win? If so, the old bag is a pain because the score was 3-2 in favor; 2 kids and a husband say "yes", and a wife and M-I-L say "no". However, if you are looking for specific actions or quantification of her behavioral traits to demonstrate she does things that are categorically "unwanted" by the majority of the people the majority of the time... well, you're reaching for stars IMO. I subscribe to the first scenario... if most people feel she is a pain, well, she IS a pain. This is just the way things are with a subjective issue IMO.

Tell you what I will do though... to try and help you and I both out...
I challenge you to a "news article search party".
You find articles in the US media that bash imports in the headlines, and I'll find articles that bash domestics in the headlines.
Wanna step up to the challenge? I feel sure that I am looking at the most work here - at least I'm offering you the smaller pile.:)
We can do this on-line together on say a Friday or Saturday night.
1-hour time limit, all finds linked-to and counted by a third party.

Whaddayasay? :thumb:

With all due respect, until you can come up with substantial, independent evidence proving that media bias does NOT exist, I am calling equine scatology.

My point exactly.

With all due respect, until you can come up with substantial, independent evidence proving that media bias does NOT exist, I am calling equine scatology.

So where does this leave us? :shrug:

Short of some writer actually admitting that he hates domestics and bashes them at every opportunity (which would be political suicide for his career), how do you even propose that I or anyone else set out to "prove" that there is a widespread slant towards bashing domestics? You are nested in a caveat that is virtually unproveable because it is a subjective accusation in the first place.

"equine scatology" :) That's cute but I think mine is better (although I did steel it from someone else)

No argument here - I agree that proving a subjective assertion is very difficult. Nevertheless, I do think that if someone wanted to construct a substantial research project and establish parameters and actually investigate it that evidence could be gained; whether it would be conclusive proof or not is questionable.

I cannot and do not say with absolute certainty that there is no media bias and for that matter, I can't say with absolute certainty that there is no widespread bias against domestics. I've also never said that there aren’t biased articles, or biased authors; the fact is, everyone is biased.

But, a good journalist is supposed to keep his personal bias in check (at lest unless we are talking about what is supposed to be editorializing) and not let his/her personal bias influence how he covers and presents a story and based on how I know journalists are trained (or at least used to be) I believe most journalists at least try to be un-biased in their writing/reorting. Sadly, there will always be those who will let their personal bias show through whether the story is on the auto industry, politics or anything else but such does not equate to widespread bias against domestic car brands and widespread bias is the claim I reject.

My rejection of the claim of media bias is directed toward the claims that such bias is widespread (sometimes even claimed to be coordinated) and in particular toward those claims of bias leveled only when a particular nameplate of vehicle is mentioned in an unfavorable light…where those claiming media bias most loose credibility in my eyes is when I read posts of people crying “media bias” when an article/author/publication says something negative about a GM vehicle, for example, and then not long after that, the same poster is touting an article by the same author/publication as great reporting when the article says something they like reading!

I believe there are a lot of folks here who confuse "negative" with "bias"...they are not equal.

Saying something that is negative but is quantifiable/true and/or can at least be supported on a rational basis is not, by most standards, “biased”; at least not IMO.

One of the foundational rules for considering evidence is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; it is also foundational in the rules of evidence that the claimant has the responsibility to provide the evidence; even if the evidence is difficult to come by. In other words, I don’t really feel it is my responsibility to prove the assertion of “media bias” to be false; especially when my rejection of the claim is a reasonable one (as I described above).

Tell you what I will do though... to try and help you and I both out...
I challenge you to a "news article search party". You find articles in the US media that bash imports in the headlines, and I'll find articles that bash domestics in the headlines.

Wanna step up to the challenge? I feel sure that I am looking at the most work here - at least I'm offering you the smaller pile.:)

We can do this on-line together on say a Friday or Saturday night.
1-hour time limit, all finds linked-to and counted by a third party.

Whaddayasay? :thumb:
Although I don't feel responsibile for disproving the assertion, I like the idea. I wonder, however, if it would really prove the case either way???

I’ve never really thought that headlines are a good basis on which to judge an article as biased or not (perhaps an indicator?). Also, a “negative” headline isn’t biased if it’s accurate (at least I don’t think so).

For example, if the WSJ publishes an article and the headline says “GM’s Third Quarter Up; But Still Expected To Miss Sales Targets Promised At The Start Of The Year”….I’d say the overall message is “negative” but it it’s true and the author has good reasons for drafting the headline that way (assuming the author had anything to do with creating the headline; they often do not); then I would not call that biased. However, there are some here who would and would probably bash me for posting it!

At any rate, I think your challenge is worth considering but I can’t do it this weekend; aside from working on another degree (online), I am out of town this weekend for a car event in Knoxville and hopefully will not be anywhere near my laptop for the duration of the weekend.

Maybe this can be revisited (and perhaps rethought/refined and bit) and then undertaken soon but a bit later???

Import owners/fans, IMHO, should not come in a place like this with a chip on their shoulder, all defensive about Asian makes being criticized... and even more importantly, should not lash out at domestic makes here. I was accused in another thread of 'trying to justify my choice of a Grand Prix GXP' or 'trying to make myself feel better' about it. That struck me as quite odd.

You were accused of that because you stormed into a Honda Accord thread and posted misleading numbers about the Grand Prix's cost of ownership. TBPH, you came off as the guy with the chip on his shoulder there.

Just as a general comment, obviously a Camaro message board is going to be generally biased towards domestic owners. But at the same time this is still CamaroZ28.com and not Every-Detroit-POS.com. If you want a board with strict "pro-domestic" moderation, there's plenty out there.

And, Robert, you seem like a good guy, but the only reason this thread has only gone on and on because certain people know how to troll you.

All I needed to do was layout a neat little trap with some negative news about your beloved Nissan and you come out swinging. It was like shooting fish in a barrel!

Robert_Nashville is in fact Carlos Ghosn. Just admit it already :)

I’ve never really thought that headlines are a good basis on which to judge an article as biased or not (perhaps an indicator?). Also, a “negative” headline isn’t biased if it’s accurate (at least I don’t think so).


As a frequent reader of news (online and in paper), I am guilty of skimming the headlines to select what articles I want to read. Often, I make the value-judgement that a certain headline summarizes the article, so if it is of only moderate interest, I move on.
I feel that MOST people do the same.
It is therefore prudent to assert that most people draw opinions and even conclusions based on headlines, and not many of those folks actually read the article to see if their initial conclusion was indeed accurate.

I have cited examples before where an article will have the headline "Ford recalls 4 million vehicles for faulty switch", but then way down inside the article they say something to the effect of "... and in other news, Ford is not the only one to have a bad day; Toyota also recalls 4 million vehicles for seat belt defect."
Well BULL-DOOKIE!
Why can't the headline read "Toyota recalls 4-million vehicles" in big bold black letters, and we can embed the Ford thing deep inside somewhere?
Better-yet, why can't the headline read,"Ford and Toyota both issue recalls today", and force the reader to read the article and find out how many cars and why the recall was issued?
I am the first to admit that there was nothing inaccurate reported in the article, but the way it was presented, it crucified Ford in big bold letters that most people see when scanning the news, while the Toyota info was buried and you had to dig to find it.

Was it mailiously done? I dunno.
Did it slant the feeling of the article? Yes (to me it sure did).
Does it qualify for "bias" towards one side? To me it does.

THAT'S my big gripe. It is a fad - an "in"-thing right now to bash domestic vehicles. It sells rags and mags. It makes people buy papers, so writers do it.

You and I both have to be honest to ourselves and admit how easy it is to find headlines that spew bad news for domestic makers... some they deserve, some they don't. Yet how hard is it to find bad headlines about Toyonda? Nissabishi? Kiundai?

Robert_Nashville is in fact Carlos Ghosn. Just admit it already :)
When I was 25 I would have loved his money and his lifestyle and would have taken his job in a minute...now, I'd love to have his money and lifestyle but I wouldn't take his job for more than a minute - life is far too short! :D

It suprises me that domestics are nowhere to be found there.....my 94 Sunbird will turn 200,000 miles by the end of the year, still going strong.....even though it did blow a tire today :mad:

…
Valid points. :bow:

Assuming it is true that most people don’t bother to read a full article and draw assumptions and conclusions based on a headline alone does that mean we should judge bias only on the headline and not the actual article?

My nature says “no”…that before leveling claims of bias we ought to at least look at the whole article and in context.

I guess I don’t like being forced to lower my “bar of evidence” just because many/most bypass what the article says and look no further than the headline; although I admit I often do the same thing in deciding what I want to bother to read.

I guess I also have a problem with it because most authors don’t actually get to choose the headline; editorial staff very often performs that function…it seems unfair to me to judge an article/author “biased” just because he may be working for a biased editor!

That said, I suppose if the editor is “biased” and deliberately choosing headlines that highlights the negative and/or slants the real substance of the article then it may be a legitimate method to judge.

Maybe your challenge is a worthwhile endeavor; but I still can’t do it this weekend!

You were accused of that because you stormed into a Honda Accord thread and posted misleading numbers about the Grand Prix's cost of ownership. TBPH, you came off as the guy with the chip on his shoulder there.

Just as a general comment, obviously a Camaro message board is going to be generally biased towards domestic owners. But at the same time this is still CamaroZ28.com and not Every-Detroit-POS.com. If you want a board with strict "pro-domestic" moderation, there's plenty out there.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and that's clearly what you've posted above. But it's a bit ridiculous to repeat that thread here. My point - about the reactions of import fans on this board - is still valid and is unaffected by your posted opinion(s).

I guess I also have a problem with it because most authors don’t actually get to choose the headline; editorial staff very often performs that function…it seems unfair to me to judge an article/author “biased” just because he may be working for a biased editor!


I agree whole-heartedly.
Maybe that's why I enjoy the term "Media-bias" as opposed to "writer-bias" or "reporter-bias".

Certainly editors are as much if not MORE to blame for the headlines than anyone. And you know, they are also the ones responsible for the content of the paper or magazine they are Editor of.
And we all know which headline THEY think sells better...
"Puppy found after 2 days missing" OR
"Plane crash kills 300 in suburb of California".
It's death, guts, scandal, glamour, and glory that sell... UNfortunately.
So we AGREE that they do play the headlines to maximize profit as opposed to fortelling a true story accurately, don't we?

Overall - it's just sad that we can even sit and debate such a topic when our journalists (all of them) should take an oath to report accurately and fairly. :(