If the Camaro fails in the marketplace...Exit strategies

So I was just wondering about the unthinkable. Camaro comes out and it doesn't sell. Or at least it sells far less than 100,000 cars. Whatever the reason, what should GM do?

My solution: quick facelift to the car and rebadge it. Call it the new Chevelle SS. Then get to work on a new Alpha based Camaro, smaller, engine to be determined by the markeplace.

What would you do if you were the boss?

The goal is to high.....


Just go ahead and file bankrupt:lol:

ok... seriously... you want to get into this now?

If Camaro falls on its face and they have to scuttle the program, you think this hiatus was bad?

The assembly line that builds Camaro will likely be shared with other vehicles.... so it comes down to the combined success of all the flavors of RWD Zeta that come down that line. If Camaro sales were lackluster, but the other car(s) coming down that line are doing spectacularly well... we'll still get a Camaro.

Firebird.... ;)

ok... seriously... you want to get into this now?

If Camaro falls on its face and they have to scuttle the program, you think this hiatus was bad?

The assembly line that builds Camaro will likely be shared with other vehicles.... so it comes down to the combined success of all the flavors of RWD Zeta that come down that line. If Camaro sales were lackluster, but the other car(s) coming down that line are doing spectacularly well... we'll still get a Camaro.

That's something I assumed should be the case.

If the Camaro were to sell, say, 65,000 a year the other vehicles coming from the plant should allow the Camaro to sell less...

Watch the bad vibes man......:eek:

Seriously though, "Failure is NOT an option" :cz28:

Maybe I've simply become cranky the past few months. Maybe I've had a rough day. Maybe I'm simply tired after putting in almost 12 hours on the job, and being pissed off at someone unrelated to anything or anyone around here. Maybe it's just late (midnight here), and I'll feel better after a night's sleep. But none the less, I don't see any possible reason why we even have a thread with this subject.

Trust me, I'm really avoiding the temtation of going Medieval here.

If Camaro fails in the marketplace, it's DEAD. What part of FOURTH GEN CAMARO are we not understanding??!

I'm also a bit incredulous at your suggestion that GM throws a facelift on it, digs out another dusty name, and slaps it on there as if it's going to make a bit of difference in sales. Also, if GM waits till after the Camaro fails in the marketplace to start up with an Alpha based version (as if the same car failing twice has a snowballs chance in hell of a 3rd try), you're going to have a gap in production on par with the 7 years of waiting we had this round. Usually, as soon as the paint's dry on the 1st newly minted model, things are already underway on it's replacement.

Just to reinterate:
Camaro is NOT vital to Chevrolet's... let alone the General Motors Corperation... existance.

The car is using up space, money, manpower, and resources that would have a much higher return on something different. There is no logical reason for it to return.

The Chevrolet Motor Division regained it's #1 position in US sales without Camaro. There were more Corvette V8s made than last gen V8 Camaros the final few years. Camaro has a less than stellar reputation that goes beyond the so called "mullet" that even enthusiasts here admit to. Corvette is Chevy's halo car. Cobalt SS is gaining a following for budget performance. Monte Carlo outsold Camaro nearly 2 to one during Camaro's final year of production..... even though Camaro's production run ran an extra 3-4 months. Thinking that a 2nd failure of the name will mean GM will stop the presses, put everything on hold, and rush through yet another Camaro is utter and complete fantasy.

What ISN'T a fantasy is that the new Camaro came through despite the odds against it.... and make no mistake, we're damn lucky that there were the right people in the right places at the right time with the right strategy and the right conditions and that the new Ford Mustang came out when it did, had the sales that it did, and broke the resistance that it did to make Camaro move towards production again, and to the enthusiastic reception it's gotten from all types of people.

If things fail, it won't happen again.

Maybe I've simply become cranky the past few months. Maybe I've had a rough day. Maybe I'm simply tired after putting in almost 12 hours on the job, and being pissed off at someone unrelated to anything or anyone around here. Maybe it's just late (midnight here), and I'll feel better after a night's sleep. But none the less, I don't see any possible reason why we even have a thread with this subject.

Trust me, I'm really avoiding the temtation of going Medieval here.

If Camaro fails in the marketplace, it's DEAD. What part of FOURTH GEN CAMARO are we not understanding??!

I'm also a bit incredulous at your suggestion that GM throws a facelift on it, digs out another dusty name, and slaps it on there as if it's going to make a bit of difference in sales. Also, if GM waits till after the Camaro fails in the marketplace to start up with an Alpha based version (as if the same car failing twice has a snowballs chance in hell of a 3rd try), you're going to have a gap in production on par with the 7 years of waiting we had this round. Usually, as soon as the paint's dry on the 1st newly minted model, things are already underway on it's replacement.

Just to reinterate:
Camaro is NOT vital to Chevrolet's... let alone the General Motors Corperation... existance.

The car is using up space, money, manpower, and resources that would have a much higher return on something different. There is no logical reason for it to return.

The Chevrolet Motor Division regained it's #1 position in US sales without Camaro. There were more Corvette V8s made than last gen V8 Camaros the final few years. Camaro has a less than stellar reputation that goes beyond the so called "mullet" that even enthusiasts here admit to. Corvette is Chevy's halo car. Cobalt SS is gaining a following for budget performance. Monte Carlo outsold Camaro nearly 2 to one during Camaro's final year of production..... even though Camaro's production run ran an extra 3-4 months. Thinking that a 2nd failure of the name will mean GM will stop the presses, put everything on hold, and rush through yet another Camaro is utter and complete fantasy.

What ISN'T a fantasy is that the new Camaro came through despite the odds against it.... and make no mistake, we're damn lucky that there were the right people in the right places at the right time with the right strategy and the right conditions and that the new Ford Mustang came out when it did, had the sales that it did, and broke the resistance that it did to make Camaro move towards production again, and to the enthusiastic reception it's gotten from all types of people.

If things fail, it won't happen again.

guionM, I don't think you're being cranky. I think you're exactly right - this topic isn't even worth talking about, not for one second. And for exactly the reason you gave - failure is not an option. If this car fails after the huge positive reception the concept got then there is no business case that GM can make in the next 20 years to justify another Camaro. Maybe more people need to remember that before griping about Camaro not being their own idealized image of the car, or whining about Z/28 or SS being top dog, or any other trivia. We're lucky - we should all be grateful.

Camaro is NOT vital to Chevrolet's... let alone the General Motors Corperation... existance.

The car is using up space, money, manpower, and resources that would have a much higher return on something different. There is no logical reason for it to return.

The Chevrolet Motor Division regained it's #1 position in US sales without Camaro. There were more Corvette V8s made than last gen V8 Camaros the final few years. Camaro has a less than stellar reputation that goes beyond the so called "mullet" that even enthusiasts here admit to. Corvette is Chevy's halo car. Cobalt SS is gaining a following for budget performance. Monte Carlo outsold Camaro nearly 2 to one during Camaro's final year of production..... even though Camaro's production run ran an extra 3-4 months. Thinking that a 2nd failure of the name will mean GM will stop the presses, put everything on hold, and rush through yet another Camaro is utter and complete fantasy.

What ISN'T a fantasy is that the new Camaro came through despite the odds against it.... and make no mistake, we're damn lucky that there were the right people in the right places at the right time with the right strategy and the right conditions and that the new Ford Mustang came out when it did, had the sales that it did, and broke the resistance that it did to make Camaro move towards production again, and to the enthusiastic reception it's gotten from all types of people.

If things fail, it won't happen again.

Guy a couple of things you talked about here have concerned me.....mostly that after 40 years, Camaro still isn't a nameplate that GM feels is at it's heart and soul as a company. You talk about resistance being broken by the mustang......I'm curious about how much of that "resistance" is still hanging around boardrooms at GM, waiting for the first opportunity to rid GM of a car that they perceive to have a permanant Mullet stigma attached to it.

I'm almost certain that during the latter half of the 90's Camaro was becoming a bad word to some (in not most) at GM and that those feelings perpetuated.....I wonder what it would take for us to see them again?

do we really have nothing else to talk about with the new camaro that this is what we are discussing?

The Camaro's ability to sell will be base almost entirely on marketing it. Outside of the automotive circle, most people don't even know GM is coming back out with it. Chevy will need to build a new youthful image for the Camaro and not rely solely on past heritage (i.e. the failure of the recent GTO, and the retro styled Thunderbird, ext.) GM is going to have to promote heavily or they will see lackluster sales like the newer 4th gens.

The Camaro's ability to sell will be base almost entirely on marketing it. Outside of the automotive circle, most people don't even know GM is coming back out with it. Chevy will need to build a new youthful image for the Camaro and not rely solely on past heritage (i.e. the failure of the recent GTO, and the retro styled Thunderbird, ext.) GM is going to have to promote heavily or they will see lackluster sales like the newer 4th gens.

The styling on GTO failed monumentally, and Thunderbird priced itself out of the market.

Thus far it doesen't seem like they're going to allow any such obvious mistakes like that with Camaro.

Re-badge it as a Chevrolet Corsica and only sell it in V6 form. :p :p :p

Isn't this a thread for some Firebird Website?

I really fail to see the relevancy on this site.

I could care less if it fails, as long as I get mine :cool:

I could care less if it fails, as long as I get mine :cool:

Amen brotha! Although a million units sold each year would make for a cheap after market!!

The Camaro's ability to sell will be base almost entirely on marketing it. Outside of the automotive circle, most people don't even know GM is coming back out with it.
Actually that's not true. My sister-in-law, who cannot tell a Camaro from a toaster asked me earlier this year if I had seen the new Camaro and was I going to get one. Albeit, she was a year late on the news, however if a common housewife who knows absolutely nothing about cars, knows of the Camaros triumphant return, then the word is out.

I've talked to people who weren't ever into cars, or Camaros before, who are excited about this car. Everything points to GM doing it right, including price, so I am confident that this car will be a homerun.

BTW - I'm 100% in agreement with Guy, this entire thread is rediculous. :rolleyes:

they already said that if the camaro doesnt sell the 100,000 then it isnt coming back for another year.

Who said that?

What makes you think GM would even think about tooling up to produce a Camaro for a one year production run? The auto industry doesn't work like that. Even the most colossal flops in automotive history have runs of a few years.

This whole thread is pretty much :rolleyes:.

they already said that if the camaro doesnt sell the 100,000 then it isnt coming back for another year. i think they would make a chevelle but then if the camaro cant make it , i dont think anything gm makes,will...Who the heck is "they"? I have heard no one from GM make such a statement.

Are you suggesting that GM won't sell 100,000 units of a RWD coupe regardless of what it is called, or are you suggesting they are better off making a Chevelle over a Camaro? :confused:

Failure is not an option :D

:lol:

Cobalt SS is gaining a following for budget performance.

too bad that car is no longer made :p

they already said that if the camaro doesnt sell the 100,000 then it isnt coming back for another year. i think they would make a chevelle but then if the camaro cant make it , i dont think anything gm makes,will...

that would be pretty DUMB...seeing as how 60% of dealers, if not more, will mark up the prices when the car is launched, and alot of people, including myself, will NEVER pay a penny over sticker for ANY car.

They did it once, but if GM lets the Camaro fail AGAIN, I will NEVER buy another GM vehicle....

GM is not building this car to fail. If it fails it is due to things beyond GM's control.

Things like market support, gas prices, insurance, the lower interest in coupes, etc.

This car should sell and be ok as it has much going for it. But to be realistic it will be with the general public to determine if it is a hit.

GM has done all it can to this point and if someone has a crystal ball that could predict what they can't for see I am sure they would pay plenty for the help.

The coupe maket is a hard sell today. It is also going to be a crowded market with new companies like Hyundia and others entering it.

GM has heritage and a lot of name equity going in and a good solid styling. Drivetrains look very promising.

I is safe to say if this car is not sold well enough to keep in production your not going to see a Chevelle coupe either.

too bad that car is no longer made :p

Ahhh It is coming back in mid 08 as a 09 as the Cobalt SS Turbo with a 2.0 260 HP Turbo Ecotech.

The SS was not a failure just a new model upgrade and it is in the works.

Check out the HHR SS as it is the same drivtrain.

Ahhh It is coming back in mid 08 as a 09 as the Cobalt SS Turbo with a 2.0 260 HP Turbo Ecotech.

The SS was not a failure just a new model upgrade and it is in the works.

Check out the HHR SS as it is the same drivtrain.


i dont like cars that look and sound VERY similar to ricers lol..but 260hp in a car that small is kinda dangerous dont u think? especially since its FWD? i know my 06 monte ss is dangerous enough with the FWD...im sure the current impala is the same...

that would be pretty DUMB...seeing as how 60% of dealers, if not more, will mark up the prices when the car is launched, and alot of people, including myself, will NEVER pay a penny over sticker for ANY car.

I'm hoping GM is going to let the stock get nice and full before they ship any...

That and the fact that Chevy dealers are all over the place would help eliminate that. Kinda hard to talk about "low supply" when you've got three...

It has allready failed.

It has allready failed.

i dont think it's failed persay, but they are losing some 1st year buyers because people just don't want to wait. i'm very tempted to pick up an 08 coupe vette pretty soon because i just don't want to wait, and thats not considering that there wont be many dealers charging sticker or under. they should have not announced the camaro until a year or so closer to production, then people wouldn't feel like they're waiting an eternity for the car.

This thread seem to have gone off the rails somehow. It was a purely hypothetical question, and a scenario that is not likely to happen. The key word here is if. There will still be a gaping performance hole. The only reason I can think of for Camaro to fail is its size, which is slightly longer than the current Mustang, or too big to be precise.

What if people start buying the new smaller turbo Tiburons instead? What should GM do?

Its not the 1960's......people just aren't into cars like they used to be.

Yeah , I know we are......but we are a small group, Its just not the same.


Glad you have faith in GM......we will see what happens in 2 years, if the world doesn't blow up or something by then

Glad you have faith in GM......we will see what happens in 2 years, if the world doesn't blow up or something by then

So youre saying youre an optimist?!?! :D:death:

Its not the 1960's......people just aren't into cars like they used to be.

Yeah , I know we are......but we are a small group, Its just not the same.


Glad you have faith in GM......we will see what happens in 2 years, if the world doesn't blow up or something by then

I would have to agree with his thinking. The 60's are long gone. The main reason the Camaro failed was because it was too expensive. You could and still can get a Mustang with comparable performance for a lot less. The Camaros in the early to mid 80's were a joke. I had a few of them and was really disappointed with them. The interor was a joke. Then came the LT1. Again, with the "Optispark," it was a poor quality vehicle that they struggled with. They have been slowly getting worse since there inception in the late 60's. As for paying over sticker for the first year, when the 93's came out, GM wouldn't let their employees use their employee discount. They had to pay the same as anyone else and I know that pissed a lot of people off. (I grew up in Detroit and have seen this first hand.) I want a new Camaro but am very skeptical that it will be all that they are saying it is to be. I just don't see 100,000 selling in the first year. If they do, it will be the base V-6 that will be the majority of the sales. Sorry to be such a pessimist. I am really hoping they learned from the 4th gen failure.

Its not the 1960's......people just aren't into cars like they used to be.

Yeah , I know we are......but we are a small group, Its just not the same.


You couldn't be more wrong. Today's cars provide far greater performance than their 1960's counterparts could ever dream of. People are into cars more than ever before. Furthermore, women have become a huge part of the formula. Look at all the tv programs devoted to performance cars and modifying, tuning and improving them. Look at the numerous car shows, racing events and other gatherings for car enthusiasts. Of course the internet has played a major role in this.

To say "people just aren't into cars like they used to be" simply isn't true.

The main reason the Camaro failed was because it was too expensive.


A 12 sec. factory stock car that got 20 mpg for about 20 large? To expensive? That's what you got with the LS1 z/28. Sorry don't buy that arguement.

A 12 sec. factory stock car that got 20 mpg for about 20 large? To expensive? That's what you got with the LS1 z/28. Sorry don't buy that arguement.

You missed the main point - You could and still can get a Mustang with comparable performance for a lot less. Try again.

So I was just wondering about the unthinkable. Camaro comes out and it doesn't sell. Or at least it sells far less than 100,000 cars. Whatever the reason, what should GM do?

My solution: quick facelift to the car and rebadge it. Call it the new Chevelle SS. Then get to work on a new Alpha based Camaro, smaller, engine to be determined by the markeplace.

What would you do if you were the boss?

I have just officially posted on a silly thread that isn't in the lounge section.

You missed the main point - You could and still can get a Mustang with comparable performance for a lot less. Try again.

A brand new stock Mustang compared to a brand new stock Camaro at the time?

To say "people just aren't into cars like they used to be" simply isn't true.

You say tomatoes and I say NOPE.....performance and everything else aside......

Things just aren't like they used to be....WTF can you do with 500 h.p. on the street anyways? NOTHING...get tickets. What are you going to race it on the weekends.....drive it everyday.....I just don't see it.

To each his own. But look at it from all views......whats more poular in your town...muscle cars or imports ricers? What young kid can afford a new camaro? So only older more mature guys will buy it? Not me...too much money....I'm too old and got too much to lose with 500h.p. on the street.....

If I want a race car, then I willl have a race car...with no comprimise.

Lastly, I would like to state that my points have no merit and I just like busting your balls b/c it gets your panties in a ruffle. No harm to you my friend....I'm just toying with you. You 5th gen lovers make it so easy.LOL Good day my friend...Take care

I have just officially posted on a silly thread that isn't in the lounge section.

White Zin and blogging don't go together well ;)

You say tomatoes and I say NOPE.....performance and everything else aside......

Things just aren't like they used to be....WTF can you do with 500 h.p. on the street anyways? NOTHING...get tickets. What are you going to race it on the weekends.....drive it everyday.....I just don't see it.

To each his own. But look at it from all views......whats more poular in your town...muscle cars or imports ricers? What young kid can afford a new camaro? So only older more mature guys will buy it? Not me...too much money....I'm too old and got too much to lose with 500h.p. on the street.....

If I want a race car, then I willl have a race car...with no comprimise.

Lastly, I would like to state that my points have no merit and I just like busting your balls b/c it gets your panties in a ruffle. No harm to you my friend....I'm just toying with you. You 5th gen lovers make it so easy.LOL Good day my friend...Take care

I feel the same way only not...

"I can get from one end of your property to the other in under 10 seconds!"

"Man thats impressive! Put it on the trailer, lets go cruising..."

i dont think it's failed persay, but they are losing some 1st year buyers because people just don't want to wait. i'm very tempted to pick up an 08 coupe vette pretty soon because i just don't want to wait, and thats not considering that there wont be many dealers charging sticker or under. they should have not announced the camaro until a year or so closer to production, then people wouldn't feel like they're waiting an eternity for the car.

Per se.

That's what happened to me. Why wait? I got my C6 and love it. You get an 08 C6, I guarantee you will never look back.

Chevy dealers will do their absolute damnedest to overcharge on the new Camaro, and will ruin the initial sales rush. After that, who knows?

Yes, my '02 SS (genuine, not a clone) is for sale.

they already said that if the camaro doesnt sell the 100,000 then it isnt coming back for another year. i think they would make a chevelle but then if the camaro cant make it , i dont think anything gm makes,will...

Who is "They".

Just so you know:

The use of "They said..." = :bs:

I'm almost certain that during the latter half of the 90's Camaro was becoming a bad word to some (in not most) at GM and that those feelings perpetuated.....I wonder what it would take for us to see them again?

In the 1990s, being a member of the Camaro program was essentially a dead end job.

The Camaro's ability to sell will be base almost entirely on marketing it. Outside of the automotive circle, most people don't even know GM is coming back out with it. Chevy will need to build a new youthful image for the Camaro and not rely solely on past heritage (i.e. the failure of the recent GTO, and the retro styled Thunderbird, ext.) GM is going to have to promote heavily or they will see lackluster sales like the newer 4th gens.

Mike, the lackluster sales of the 4th gen had very little to do with promoting or advertizing it. It had to do with the car itself. Those who have been around here since I started will realize this is a totally opposite view than I had 6 years ago.

I'm on my third 4th gen, so I think that I can evoke as cover: "Only Nixon could go to China" in saying that the 4th gen Camaro, and the entire direction the car went was a disaster. I could go into details about why I feel that way, but I've done it numerous times. It wasn't the lack of advertizing, it was the car itself.



The styling on GTO failed monumentally, and Thunderbird priced itself out of the market.

Re: Thunderbird.......Kinda.

Actually, MN12 Thunderbirds were expensive to make since Ford tried very hard to keep prices down near Monte Carlo territory and the car was basically over-engineered. Besides self destructing light and ignition switches, Ford's standard AC systems that last no more than 6-7 years, the thinest, cheapest, easiest deteriorating leather seats on the plenet, and the infamous mid 90s era 3.8 liter V6 gaskets, unless someone made it their personal mission to attempt to destroy an MN12 Thunderbird, you will still find that virturally all T-Birds (even the 18 year old 1989s) are still solid, many with original parts that's never needed replacement and if they did, it was done within the past few years.

Regular T-birds weren't priced much more than a modestly optioned MC, and the final years, Thunderbird actually outsold the Monte.

I would have to agree with his thinking. The 60's are long gone. The main reason the Camaro failed was because it was too expensive.

I'm going to assume you're pretty young, and weren't around when 4th gens were being sold new. I'm also going to assume that your computer has no access to Yahoo or Google. The reason I'm assuming both is because Mustangs and comparable Camaros were withing a few hundred dollars of each other. You could even get a new base model, 160+mph 2002 Z28 Camaro hardtop for under $20,000, but it was outsold handily by well optioned Z28s and Camaro SS models. I'm also going to assume that you don't know that Pontiac sold barely 1000 cheap LS1 Formula Firebirds, yet sold 13,000+ more expensive Trans Ams and WS6s.

The Camaros in the early to mid 80's were a joke. I had a few of them and was really disappointed with them.

Again, I'm assuming you are very young. Buying any 10+ year old car from the 1980s was a joke.

Again, with the "Optispark," it was a poor quality vehicle that they struggled with.

Optispark was created to take the stress of having a distributor off the camshaft. The idea was extremely sound in eliminating any chance of fatigue or failue over very long periods of time and very heavy usage. The gear driven waterpump eliminated the bearing tension created by the fanbelt pulling the pump shaft to one side, again increasing life (though the pump was made cheaply, and typically lasts only 100K miles). The problem that you are probally refering to (water leakage destroying the optispark sensor) was fixed with the 1996 LT1s.

As for paying over sticker for the first year, when the 93's came out, GM wouldn't let their employees use their employee discount. They had to pay the same as anyone else and I know that pissed a lot of people off. (I grew up in Detroit and have seen this first hand.)

There were 39,000 Camaros sold duing a very short 1993 production year. The following year there was nearly 120,000 sold. Employee discounts had squat to do with anything. It was a high demand 1st year car. The same thing happens with every automaker. Chrysler has already made it clear that there will be no employee discounts on the Challenger till sales settle down. You can bet there won't be discounts on 5th gen Camaros as well.

I want a new Camaro but am very skeptical that it will be all that they are saying it is to be. I just don't see 100,000 selling in the first year. If they do, it will be the base V-6 that will be the majority of the sales. Sorry to be such a pessimist. I am really hoping they learned from the 4th gen failure.

OK, I'll bite.

What EXACTLY do you see as the 4th gen's failure?

It has allready failed.

It has to actually be on the market to fail.


too bad that car is no longer made :p

Just for 6 months. Then watch out. ;)

They did it once, but if GM lets the Camaro fail AGAIN, I will NEVER buy another GM vehicle....

I used to have the same attitude, but then I realized that it wasn't GM that made the 4th gen fail. It was GM rabidly pursuing the enthusiast at the expense of the regular buyer that made the car fail.

There was and still is a very vocal "Take No Prisoners" group with not even an inkling of comprehension of the fact that enthusiasts alone don't make up enough people to keep a car in production. Even a Camaro. This is a gang whose every response to every problem is "Add more power". The public isn't intrested in more power. They notice that the "crap-o-matic® power window motor" measures it's lifespan in minutes-of-use. The fuel guage is about as accurate as an Iraq invasion justification. They notice the doors take up a 3rd of the length of the car, and seemingly weigh 1/3 of the car. These are the guys who attempt to be insulting by calling Mustang a "girls car", while convienently ignoring that more men buy Mustang V6s than bought all V8 Camaros. That's Z28 & SS combined.

This thread seem to have gone off the rails somehow. It was a purely hypothetical question, and a scenario that is not likely to happen. The key word here is if. There will still be a gaping performance hole. The only reason I can think of for Camaro to fail is its size, which is slightly longer than the current Mustang, or too big to be precise.

What if people start buying the new smaller turbo Tiburons instead? What should GM do?

I'm not getting you.

GM already has the Cobalt. A 4 passenger, FWD coupe.

Again, Camaro isn't a god up on a pedastal (if anyone thinks it is, get help. Now.). It's a nameplate. A historical one, but still a nameplate. Nameplates can be retired when of no more use.

Again, if Camaro fails (for a 2nd time), it's toast. Game over. It's Gone. Not coming back.

I don't see what part of this is so difficult to understand. :shrug:


Its not the 1960's......people just aren't into cars like they used to be.


I have to disagree. People ARE into cars as much as they ever were. Just because the cars they are into are FWD is irrelevent. I see all the enthusiasm and tricks I remember when I was their age.... not telling how long ago. :p

I'm not getting you.

GM already has the Cobalt. A 4 passenger, FWD coupe.

Again, Camaro isn't a god up on a pedastal (if anyone thinks it is, get help. Now.). It's a nameplate. A historical one, but still a nameplate. Nameplates can be retired when of no more use.

Again, if Camaro fails (for a 2nd time), it's toast. Game over. It's Gone. Not coming back.

I don't see what part of this is so difficult to understand.

I guess my point is that by the time Camaro comes out, there will be other competitors in the market (besides Ford) with offerings. These cars, coming from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai all smell the importance of the 20-something market in cultivating future sales. In virtually every case, these cars will be smaller, RWD or AWD, and 2+2.

Cobalt? Please don't make me laugh. CU rates that thing is a dismal reliability disaster, and it's NOT a small car, it is based on the mid-sized Saturn of old and it's FWD.

And, "If* the Camaro is dead then I would bet that it won't be the only thing "toast, Game over. Gone. Not coming back." at GM. You can add a few executives 'nameplates' to that as well.

But like I said, this thread is not about Camaro. It is what should arise to take its place should the new model fail. I believe the new Camaro will be a success, but what would you replace it with? If you can't answer that, don't bother with this thread.

And, "If* the Camaro is dead then I would bet that it won't be the only thing "toast, Game over. Gone. Not coming back." at GM. You can add a few executives 'nameplates' to that as well.

But like I said, this thread is not about Camaro. It is what should arise to take its place should the new model fail. I believe the new Camaro will be a success, but what would you replace it with? If you can't answer that, don't bother with this thread.

Not what your subject said but just for fun and because I cant help it Ill bite.

Id merge buick, saab and, Caddilac. Id kill pontiac and GMC and globalize Holden. Chevy being the mainstay of GM. Id look at buying into Honda like ford did with Mazda merge them with saturn/opel and rebrand the surviving company Honda. If the Honda deal went through I would have them collaborate with Saab on a bullet proof butter smooth 4cyl killing the ridgline. I would throw out strict tradition in favor of simplicity of where the future may lie, and start over. By that time Honda/Saab powered 4cyl would destroy toyota, while Chevy trucks would do the same on the other end of the spectrum.

Im assuming you reshaped the question from Camaro to if the ship was sinking. This of course is my expert opinion as Junior Junior Junior Mr fatasy exec! :cool: Im sure it wont go over well...

Camaro failing?
I was driving hope just now and saw a tint shop that just changed their sign. It has a picture of the Camaro Concept on it, twice the size of the shop's name. :lol:

I guess my point is that by the time Camaro comes out, there will be other competitors in the market (besides Ford) with offerings. These cars, coming from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai all smell the importance of the 20-something market in cultivating future sales. In virtually every case, these cars will be smaller, RWD or AWD, and 2+2. None of which will have Camaro's heritage and history either. :D

Seriously though, Toyota and Honda have lacked a halo performance car for so long, are they really going to jump back into the game now? They've made a huge niche market with the greenies who tend to run with the "performance cars kill trees" crowd. Those sales numbers are huge compared against the smaller percentage of enthusiast type buyers. Do they really want to alienate that cash cow?

I guess my point is that by the time Camaro comes out, there will be other competitors in the market (besides Ford) with offerings. These cars, coming from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai all smell the importance of the 20-something market in cultivating future sales. In virtually every case, these cars will be smaller, RWD or AWD, and 2+2.

You're completely correct in being concerned. But, if Mustang can continue to absolutely slaughter other sports coupes in sales (sales of new import coupes aren't as popular as many think), then there's a better than good chance that Camaro will regain it's number 2 position, and also outsell import coupes by huge margins as well.

Cobalt? Please don't make me laugh. CU rates that thing is a dismal reliability disaster, and it's NOT a small car, it is based on the mid-sized Saturn of old and it's FWD.

First off, you really don't know your chassis, do you? ;)

Cobalt is a subcompact built off GM's Delta chassis, and was developed in Germany by Opel. It was fine tuned at Nürburgring, and it shares it's chassis not just with the Saturn Ion, but also the new Saturn (and Opel) Astra, & the Opel Zafira as well as the HHR. The new Chevrolet Volt is being based off this platform as well. Cobalt is a vastly improved version of the chassis over the Ion.

As for it being FWD, so what?? As was mentioned in a previous post, that's what younger car enthusiasts are into at the moment. The cars are cheap, light, and therefore, a small mod delivers tangable results right away.

Finally, I doubt you'd find anyone (especially here of all places) who takes CU seriously unless they're buying a minivan or a dependable troublefree new car for their wife or daughter. But if you do take what they said about Cobalt seriously, then you may as well dump your Camaro now. CU ravaged the Camaro as well whenever they tested it.

And, "If* the Camaro is dead then I would bet that it won't be the only thing "toast, Game over. Gone. Not coming back." at GM. You can add a few executives 'nameplates' to that as well.

Bob Lutz is retiring shortly there afterwards (he'll be 80 a couple years after Camaro comes out).

Ric Wagoner is engineering the largest turnaround of any car company in automotive history. If it succeeds (and it already is showing signs it will in a big way) GM's not going to let him go till he retires or dies. In the unlikely event it doesn't work, a $250-300 million (best guess) Camaro program in the multiple billions spent by GM on program development, and the 100K predicted sales of Camaro out of over 4 million vehicles annually isn't going to leave a blemish if it fails.

But like I said, this thread is not about Camaro. It is what should arise to take its place should the new model fail. I believe the new Camaro will be a success, but what would you replace it with? If you can't answer that, don't bother with this thread.

Again... if Camaro fails, game over.

That includes anything to replace it.

If Camaro fails, GM ISN'T going to create a new skin, a new name, and proclaim it a replacement for the Camaro. If a car like the Camaro... that has over 40 years of history behind it, memories and stories of the current generation of buyers, their parents, and their parent's parents.... fails, there isn't going to be a new body and new name that's going to have the advantages simply having the Camaro name has. It's like saying the Ford Probe replaced the Mustang. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it???


Because the coupe market is small, and the investment going into a new coupe will need to be miniscule, and the fact that after a Camaro disaster, they will put as much distance between the Camaro and itself as it can and look at what's selling, you ARE going to see the Cobalt SS or a similar car taking the place of affordable performance at Chevrolet.

I simply can't stress how fragile the chain of events that transpired to bring back the Camaro were. How timing was pretty near unbelievable. Suppose Holden's then-CEO, Peter Hanenberger, decided to simply modify the VZ Holdens than to invest a mind-numbing & astronomical (for an Australian car maker) billion dollars plus and create a entirely new and easily modifiable structure? Suppose GM's meltdown of early 2005 occured 1 year earlier. Suppose GM's North American Zeta program came to a screaching halt before Camaro got as far along as it did? Twice? Even, suppose GM's Zeta North American Zeta program went ahead, unrestricted (Chevelle and possibly no Camaro?).


You aren't going to get the answer you want. No one is going to say "well... Chevrolet will do this or that and replace the Camaro if it fails", which is what you seem to be expecting. To say "if you can't answer that, stay off the thread", is basically saying you can't handle the answers. So why ask the question? :shrug:

If Camaro fails, that concludes low priced, V8 powered, pony cars at General Motors.

GM isn't going to rebody anything and slap a name on it and call it a replacement.

GM isn't going to use the Camaro name on anything for years afterwards... if ever.

If (and currently, that's still a BIG "if") Chevrolet gets a coupe from the RWD Alpha chassis, chances are it's star performer will have 4 cylinders, direct injection, a turbocharger, and an intercooler. Less likely, it's top performer will have a direct injected V6. Most likely, it will be in showrooms before Camaro departs, so it won't actually be a replacement.

Finally, Camaro's average buyer (as is Mustang's) isn't "20-something". Mustang's average buyer is 32. 2 door Cobalt's is well in the 20s. The Cobalt SS was competing (and will again) well in the "20-something" performance market. :)


However, for the record, the Camaro (like the upcoming Ute) are very near fail-proof.

Regarding the Ute, Aussie sales pay for the pocket change it took to develop it, and spare parts from the G8 take care of US federalization. GM sells a few hundred in the US & they make their money back from preparing it for the US. Sell more than that, and the money goes into GM's piggy bank.

With Camaro, actual cost of development is miniscule. But, profit margin per car is likely to be to be razor thin because of the expected low price it'll be sold at versus it's high content, so it will balence out. In short, GM isn't going to make much money on Camaros, but as long as there's an assembly line to piggyback on (and it isn't squeezed out by production demands of other models), Zeta Camaros likely can be made for some time even at very small volumes in the future. Once it's investment is paid (most likely by initial demand the 1st year or so), as long as the profit margin per car is kept, it won't matter how few is sold (within reason of course).

Look outside the US for additional sales. I can be sure, and very sure, that the camaro will sell in their thousands in the middle east provided the performance(?hp) and features are there. These people are crazy over performance muscle cars and there's plenty of spending power. The mustang (a huge success here) looks a "mus-quito" compared to the new camaro.

It "could" fail if, the price tag is TOO high. It's "SUPPOSED" to be comparabile to the Mustang (WE ALL HOPE) around th 28K range but if they plug this animal at 35K and over, you'll leave a lot of loyal fans PISSED! +combine the fact when gas goes up to $4 a gallon again will surely factor into a failure. Combine the 2 could be a disaster, unless they make a V6 that gets 30mpg then the Camaro will be ok.

You're completely correct in being concerned. But, if Mustang can continue to absolutely slaughter other sports coupes in sales (sales of new import coupes aren't as popular as many think)

The Mustang doesn't really have any direct competition (RWD, four-seat, two-door, sub-$35k car). Sure, there are some secondary competition for the younger sporty car buyer (Z, Evo, et al.), but none have the same configuration. This makes it easy to top the sales charts as the other cars are much more targeted for a niche buyer.

However, the cars coming in the near future look to be more direct competition to the Mustang (Camaro, Challenger, Hyundai coupe, if Toyota ever releases the Supra or the potential Corolla/Hachi Roku replacement, etc.) -- all should be 2+2, RWD coupes.

That will be the REAL test of Mustang sales (and it's competition).

The Mustang doesn't really have any direct competition (RWD, four-seat, two-door, sub-$35k car). Sure, there are some secondary competition for the younger sporty car buyer (Z, Evo, et al.), but none have the same configuration. This makes it easy to top the sales charts as the other cars are much more targeted for a niche buyer.

However, the cars coming in the near future look to be more direct competition to the Mustang (Camaro, Challenger, Hyundai coupe, if Toyota ever releases the Supra or the potential Corolla/Hachi Roku replacement, etc.) -- all should be 2+2, RWD coupes.

That will be the REAL test of Mustang sales (and it's competition).

New Mustang and Camaro buyers actually don't tend to be very young. The average age of a buyer of the new Mustang is 35 years old. 4th gen Camaro was about 40. Z28, SS, and Cobra buyers were well into the mid 40s. Mustang Gt buyers, ironically, tended to be younger than Mustang V6 buyers. Something like 32. Used, alot of these cars end up in younger hands, but as far as paying money directly to GM for these rides, the average age isn't what you'd consider "young"..... unless you're well over 35 yourself.

Camaro (and Mustang) doesn't compete with the Evo, 350Z, or anything other than 2 door coupes and hatchbacks. This comes up time and again from various posters (not just picking on you). Evo is a high performance, AWD version of a 4 door sedan. The Nissan 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car that if anything, competes with a Corvette.

Mustang falls in the same grouping with other 4 passenger sports coupes. This includes the G35 (now G37) from Infinity, the Scion Xc, the Cobalt coupe, and even the upcoming BMW 1 series (and arguably the 3 series).

You are right. Competition is definately going to heat up in the near future.

Camaro (and Mustang) doesn't compete with the Evo, 350Z, or anything other than 2 door coupes and hatchbacks.

I think we are saying basically the same thing in different ways, but I also think it would be foolish to ignore the Zs of the world. The cars will be cross-shopped. If people have ~$30k to spend and are looking for a fun car, they will compare them all in a "do I really need a back seat?" sort of way. There will also be those that know then want a 2+2, RWD sport coupe and will compare similar cars in different price ranges (G37, et. al.) and compare the cars to see if the more expensive ones would be worth it.

The reason the Camaro is such a difficult car to create is the V6 will compete with one set of cars (Accord Coupe, Altima Coupe, Tc, Mustang V6, etc.) and the V8 will compete with an entirely different set of cars (Mustang GT, Z, Evo) and even up to the G37/335i (in a "can I skip a few meals to afford it?" sort of way ;-) )

The difficulty is the V6 needs to be cheap enough to compete on the lower levels, but the V8 needs to be built well enough to compete against the upper level sports car market. That is virtually impossible to do, so the problem is where to you compromise?

And that is what the competition will do -- provide the consumers different choices in how the slice and dice those compromises.

If the Camaro fails they will just make the Firebird. ;)

-Sorry I had to.

If the Camaro fails they will just make the Firebird. ;)

-Sorry I had to.

ROFL!!! It should be the STFU edition Firebird! :D

Camaro (and Mustang) doesn't compete with the Evo, 350Z, or anything other than 2 door coupes and hatchbacks. This comes up time and again from various posters (not just picking on you). Evo is a high performance, AWD version of a 4 door sedan. The Nissan 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car that if anything, competes with a Corvette.
Sorry but I disagree. If there were to be no return of Camaro, I'd look at the Nissan 350Z before Mustang, or even Corvette for that matter. :D

...so you're implying that Corvette competes with Mustang?

...so you're implying that Corvette competes with Mustang?

I think to some extent it does. Shelby stole the King of the Road Moniker from Vette to slap on a Shelby Mustang in the 60s. GMs been quoted(before 5thgen was official) as saying the Mustang has a broad range and they do it all with one car.

I think it depends on the person doing the shoping as to whether they are competition. For direct competition I dont think it does. If someone definatly needs the 2+2 or wants a no comprimise 2 seater there is no competition. I think the AC Cobra should have solidered on for more direct competition.

...so you're implying that Corvette competes with Mustang?On the top end? (GT-500 v. base Vette) Absolutely. :D

I was merely stating, that my next car purchase wish list goes like such...

1. Camaro (top dog)
2. Nissan 350Z
3. Corvette Z51
4. Mustang GT500

If a top dog Camaro weren't available in 2010 (or 2011 etc) then I'll be in the market for a new (or used) 350Z. I'm also throwing around the idea of perhaps even a Lotus Elise.

I main idea is I want a fun, weekend car with neck snapping looks and performance. :D

On the top end? (GT-500 v. base Vette) Absolutely. :D
Pffft. Disagree - but we'll end up disagreeing no matter how much we talk about it, so that's that. :)

I was merely stating, that my next car purchase wish list goes like such...

1. Camaro (top dog)
2. Nissan 350Z
3. Corvette Z51
4. Mustang GT500

Personal preference is personal preference. My wishlist is very different, and wouldn't even include the GT500 or the Nissan.

If a top dog Camaro weren't available in 2010 (or 2011 etc) then I'll be in the market for a new (or used) 350Z. I'm also throwing around the idea of perhaps even a Lotus Elise.

I main idea is I want a fun, weekend car with neck snapping looks and performance. :D
I guess you have to like the looks of the 350Z and Elise in order to consider it 'neck snapping', but that is....you guessed it....individual preference. :)

I can totally relate to the fun stuff....though I obviously tend towards straight line.

Bob

I can totally relate to the fun stuff....though I obviously tend towards straight line.

BobThat's why we disagree Bob. :D

While straight line accelleration is cool, I much more perfer how well the car handles. That's why my 67 Camaro has a small block, 5-speed, big brakes and a stiff suspension to handle the twisties.

If I were looking for straight line performance only, my list would be very different. :D

I think to some extent it does. Shelby stole the King of the Road Moniker from Vette to slap on a Shelby Mustang in the 60s. GMs been quoted(before 5thgen was official) as saying the Mustang has a broad range and they do it all with one car..

Gotta disagree with you here.

First, buyers of today's Shelbys are almost exclusively Mustang fans who have extra money and/or want a special Mustang.

Second, people who walk into a Chevrolet showroom and buy a Corvette, intended to buy a Corvette before they even got into their car to drive to the Chevy dealer.

Third, Mustang was always about taking a volume chassis and making it perform like a sports car at a far cheaper price.

Yes, Shelby stole the "King Of The Road" name from GM's planned Corvette. But John Delorean stole the GTO name from a Ferrari, and I have never heard anyone say this fact places a Pontiac GTO in direct competition with a Ferrari GTO. Chevrolet also stole from Ferrari in naming the Camaro Berlinetta of the late 70s-early 80s. Yet I doubt anyone will throw the 2 against each other without being on illegal meds.

Gotta disagree with you here.

First, buyers of today's Shelbys are almost exclusively Mustang fans who have extra money and/or want a special Mustang.

Second, people who walk into a Chevrolet showroom and buy a Corvette, intended to buy a Corvette before they even got into their car to drive to the Chevy dealer.

Third, Mustang was always about taking a volume chassis and making it perform like a sports car at a far cheaper price.

Yes, Shelby stole the "King Of The Road" name from GM's planned Corvette. But John Delorean stole the GTO name from a Ferrari, and I have never heard anyone say this fact places a Pontiac GTO in direct competition with a Ferrari GTO. Chevrolet also stole from Ferrari in naming the Camaro Berlinetta of the late 70s-early 80s.

I really think were splitting hairs. The part you left off of my quote was


I think it depends on the person doing the shoping as to whether they are competition. For direct competition I dont think it does. If someone definatly needs the 2+2 or wants a no comprimise 2 seater there is no competition. I think the AC Cobra should have solidered on for more direct competition.

Yeah there are Shelby and Vette loyalists and those that go specifically for those cars. But it depends on the person doing the cross shopping. Ive cross shopped an RSX and an Accord. The sales men were aggrivated when they asked what I was comparing because they werent in the same class. Guess what? I dont care they both had the power and reliability I wanted. The RSX had the hadling I was impressed with but the accord comfort, but I ended up with neither. Point is when someone has money in hand if two cars meet your requirements you can cross shop as you please.


Yet I doubt anyone will throw the 2 against each other without being on illegal meds.

generally they are not in the same class but I do think to a small extent they are cross shopped. Not as much as it seems Ford has banked on by having one car and no AC Cobra but they are I think. Its the reason Scott said GM wouldnt let him talk about the 1LE out performing the Vette and the reason for the horse power detunning and the reason Lutz said Generally you want the Vette with a bit more power.

Personally I think there should not be detunning. Camaro is different enough and it should not be cut short. The vette plat is much more expensive and should be where the differentiation is not in power.

Lots of things can be cross-shopped. For example, I seriously considered buying a 02/03 Z06 before eventually deciding on my 04 Cobra (in hindsight, probably should have gotten the Z06), and also seriously considered a sportbike before buying my Harley Wide Glide (and no, I'm not kidding). However, that doesn't make them real 'competitors', IMHO.

Bob

Lots of things can be cross-shopped. For example, I seriously considered buying a 02/03 Z06 before eventually deciding on my 04 Cobra (in hindsight, probably should have gotten the Z06), and also seriously considered a sportbike before buying my Harley Wide Glide (and no, I'm not kidding). However, that doesn't make them real 'competitors', IMHO.

BobThat's true. But keep in mind someone said that the Camaro and 350Z weren't cross-shopped by anyone. (I believe it was Guy.) And while that may be his opinion and may even be true for most Camaro enthusiasts, it isn't the case with at least one enthusiast... me. :D

Back in 1989 when I got out of college I wanted to buy a new car because I was going to be commuting about 1hr one way from my home in Redwood City to my job in Oakland (~42 miles)... and my 68 Camaro wasn't going to be a great daily driver in spite of the fact that it had been that for almost four years while I was in college. I wanted to new Camaro Z28 (may have been IROC-Z at the time, but those are semantics) but when I looked into the insurance it would have been almost $5k a year. While I could afford the car, I couldn't afford the insurance. I asked my agent when the next "break" was and she said when I reached 30 years old.

So I searched for an alternative. I almost bought a clean '69 Vette for $13k (shoulda, woulda, coulda), looked breifly at clean '88 Mazda RX7 vert on the dealer lot (battery was dead, lucky me) before settling in on a Nissan 240 SX. It met my criteria, sporty, manual tranny, adequate performance and RWD. (I even test drove one of those turbo Dodge Colts and even though it smoked the Nissan, it was too boxy for my tastes and I was not buying a FWD car. :D) During that time I started getting into Nissans and in particular Zs, which I couldn't afford at the time.

Flash forward 6 years and for my 30th birthday I bought myself a loaded top dog Camaro, a 95 Z/28. The 240SX had been a great little car, but it wasn't a Camaro and I saw a desire to get back into an f-body.

Now after adding two other Camaros to my collection, and several daily drivers, I want something "fresh". Although I love the dependability of my 95 Z/28, and the neck breaking looks and performance of my 67 Camaro modern-day Trans Am tribute beast, I don't drive either enough to justify keeping them both. (And that doesn't begin to include my other 67 Camaro sitting in the garage and undriven for ages.) So I'm looking for a best of both words car if you will. The new Camaro will fill that mold of old-meets-new.

However, if the Camaro were not going to return, I'd still look for something else. Heck I've also always wanted a 911 or an old E-type, but I can't afford either of those. And while I certainly wouldn't say that they're cross-shopped with Camaro, they will always remain on my list. :D

A lot of people who wouldn't buy a Camaro before, won't buy one now unless they're presuaded by the new styling. There is a good chance that the Camaro will fall flat on its face because either a) the enthusiast community of die-hard Camaro buying fans is too small, and b) The target demographic (mid/late 20's-40's?) remembers the Camaro as the quintessential 1980's mullet and hair-band driving machine.

If it fails, which I hope it doesn't, I'm guessing it will go the way of the SSR. Highly famed by few enthusiasts, hated by others, ultimately to cease production after just a few years.

As an interim effort, depending on what happens with the Volt, they could make an electric performance version.