More than one V8 in the first year?

I saw this clip in the "multimedia" section: http://video.lsxtv.com/video/1700 , but i think it deserves a look/listen in the powertrain section.


Really "listen" to Ed Peper from about 3:10 to 3:45
"....powertrain group at GM.....always cooking up stuff.....you have to continue coming out with the latest and greatest....in varying engines and trim levels......We're gonna have some unexpected surprises when we bring the model to market in the early part of 2009"

Later on at 5:00 when talking about engines, he says "....folks who love musclecars are gonna love our V8 variants alot...."

I know the current belief is that the 500hp+ motor should be out about a year after the Camaro is initially released, but the above statements make me wonder if early release of the "top dog" might be one of those "surprises". ;)

Did any one else take it the same way, or am I just reading WAY TO MUCH into it?? :think:

that'd be awesome if they released the top v8 first model year

Soley based on what GM has done in the past..... Camaro wont see anything until Corvette has it first.

it would be stupid if the year right after the first year they decide to put a whole new engine in it...i highly doubt that would happen

^Oh, no. They'd never do that...

^Oh, no. They'd never do that...

:lol: Yeah, it's not like it's ever happened before or anything...:D

I don't follow the Challenger at all, but I did a quick search and the belief is (at least from what I found on the net) that the Callenger will have a V8 with around 420hp and an SRT V8 with 500hp+ IN THE FIRST YEAR. If someone who does follow the new Challenger knows different, then please correct me.

Ford's GT500R is supposed to have 540hp.

So, not only will GM be the last to the party with an early 2009 release, but they'll wait an additional year before they have anything to compete with Ford & Chrysler's "bad-@ss"?
.........man I hope not.

So far, nobody "in the know" has replied to this thread to raise the B.S. flag or even say "wishful thinking" or "don't count on it"......hmmmmm :think:

:leaving:

I posted on another site that more than one V8 would be a good idea, but one of the guys with GM said it wouldn't happen. So, I guess we'll see but I still think there's a market for the medium power V8. Not everyone wants the tire shredding big horse engine with the insurance rates to suit, and a V6 Camaro doesn't interest too many either. Recall back in the late 70s when Camaros were really selling big, most cars were actually not sixes or Z28s.

I posted on another site that more than one V8 would be a good idea, but one of the guys with GM said it wouldn't happen. So, I guess we'll see but I still think there's a market for the medium power V8. Not everyone wants the tire shredding big horse engine with the insurance rates to suit, and a V6 Camaro doesn't interest too many either. Recall back in the late 70s when Camaros were really selling big, most cars were actually not sixes or Z28s.


who said it would never happen? what "GM guy"? scott?

You will get one V8 the first year and the big V8 a year to year and a half later.

Not sure if both V6 engines will be out the first year but these will be very imprtant to the health of this car. One of the coming V6 engines will pick up where the 4th Gen Z28 left off.

I posted on another site that more than one V8 would be a good idea, but one of the guys with GM said it wouldn't happen. So, I guess we'll see but I still think there's a market for the medium power V8. Not everyone wants the tire shredding big horse engine with the insurance rates to suit, and a V6 Camaro doesn't interest too many either. Recall back in the late 70s when Camaros were really selling big, most cars were actually not sixes or Z28s.

Let's just hope GM hears us. We're the ones who don't want a V6 Camaro, but don't really want a gas guzzler, and don't really want to pay the possibly sky high insurance rates and whatever else that comes with the territory of having a tire smokin' top dollar V8; but we want a Camaro with a V8 in it just so we don't have to hear "If it's not V8, it's craaap!!!"

Plus it's nice to (hopefully) beat the GT 'stangs at least marginally to keep them quiet too. Let the top dog Camaro deal with the Challengers and Shelby GTs and whatever else the competition can and will throw in their direction.

Either way, can't wait to see the General unleash the beast.

Soley based on what GM has done in the past..... Camaro wont see anything until Corvette has it first.

As has been noted in other threads/forums, '67 Camaro got the new 350 engine before the Vette did, so it has happened in the past.
Clyde

who said it would never happen? what "GM guy"? scott?

Yep. Been a month or so since the post, be hard to find now.

I'm cool with a single V8.:D having a choice of two would be nice, but methinks it could drive the cost up if there are too many big choices like that.

However, I have heard some "GM guys" talk about powertrains as though there would be two V8's. Take this for instance:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/11/detroit-auto-show-a-conversation-with-ed-peper/

Autoblog: Have you guys arrived at a final decision for the top powertrain?

Ed Peper: No, not yet., a couple of V6s -- you know, we'll have a fuel efficient V6 and we'll have a high performing V6 and we will have a high performing V8 but we haven't settled on the engine in that yet.
I interpret this; "We will have a V8...we'll have a fuel efficient V6 and we'll have a high performing V6 and we will have a high performing V8 but we haven't settled on the engine in that yet." There will be 2 V6's and 2 V8's, but they've only decided on three of the 4 engines.

:D :bow:

I'm cool with a single V8.:D


.....I'm not. :p

Yeah, I read the autoblog interview, and from that it DOES sound like just one V8 (at least the first year), but the date on that was early January. The Peper interview video on my original thread is from the Woodward Cruise much later. And it sounds like (to me at least) that he's hinting at a second V8 in the first year. I'm still hung up on "....unexpected surprises when we bring the model to market in the early part of 2009" immediately after he talks about GM powertrain group.

IF GM has the engine (and drivetrain to take the power) sufficiently tested and has the ability to mass produce it, why the hell wouldn't they release the bad-@ss in 2009? If "the" engine isn't ready in time, how about offering an LS7? I know originally the LS7 was an expensive motor but perhaps over time the costs have dropped a bit. And even if it is still relatively expensive, why not drop it in the bad-@ss Camaro anyway for that first year?

GM would be a bunch of damn fools to answer both the Challenger thundering into its first year with an optional 500hp+ version, and the top Mustang offering well over 500hp with a substantially lower 430hp or even 450hp (with luck) LS3 powered Camaro as the "top" model in 2009. If you're coming back into the game after a 7 year absence you should come in with a thunderous BANG to get everyone's attention AND to rattle the competition, not just a loud "pop" that you hope will make people notice you.

Am I asking too much? .........Maybe?
Am I greedy? ......better believe it!

.....like I said, it may just be wishful thinking on my part and I may be inferring too much from the Peper interview...but still :think:

I've never considered GT500, as a regular Mustang, the top-end "mainstream" Mustang, to me, is their GT premium...:shrug:

GT500, would be territory for, like, a Foose, or some other limited production Camaro.

And though I agree it might be advantageous to GM to offer a hugely powerful Hp Camaro...it won't be the LS7(I've thought that for a while, and even Mr. Settlemire 'confirmed' it), and there has been no confirmation that I've seen that either competing car has a 500+hp engine planned for release. I could have missid that, though.

even as it is. If you consider GT500 to be just anther trim Mustang, then take into account it didn't release in the Mustang's first year.

"Buisnessly" (is that a word?) speaking, it's probably not such a good idea to offer too many engines...just 1 V8 would spread costs across a much larger amount of engines, then two diff. motors. V6's don't matter as much because the chances that the V6's they use are in multiple other vehicles, is high.

There are soooo many pro's and con's in either direction (1 V8, or 2), that I have no idea which I think will likely happen...I don't mind not knowing, though - I'm looking forward to being surprised. I want this car to still hold a 'wow' factor for me, not a "yep, I told ya so" feeling.

The Mustang is planned for a increase in power on or around 2010 the last I heard.

I don't think you will see too much in V8 options but I feel you will see a steady progress in technology that will increase power and improve economy.

The only reason I think there will be 2 V6 engines is that Scott said there is a market for the lower powered engine [secretary's cars per say]. It would be fore someone who wants a sporty car with no need or care for overwhelming power.

The performance V6 is lighter more economical and will provide better insurance prices. It has the best of both worlds power and economy for the daily drivers of the world> Lets face it a V6 with 4th gen SS power would be very popular. The 3.6 is the new Small block as it will power everything from Chevy to Caddy.

The V8 will be there for those who demand it for daily use or for the weekend play car to enjoy.

I see the engines lined up with how ever many models are offered . The Top V8 for the Z28, the standard V8 for the SS

The V6 for the base and more upscale non SS car {name unknow].

Most of Chevys other car do not offer many engine options. 1-3 look like all most see. 3.5-3.6 and V8 have been used in most larger cars where the Ecotech and Ecotech Turbo/SC are the others.

Keeping it simple keeps it cheaper. all are great engines and deliver more than enough power to satify most people. I think the day like in the 60's where 5-6 Engines per line are long over.

Keeping it simple keeps it cheaper. all are great engines and deliver more than enough power to satify most people. I think the day like in the 60's where 5-6 Engines per line are long over.
:bow: Well said!

I have my own beliefs as to which will be top...but, well - not here;)

I am happy to hear that it sounds like GM is still on course with the 2 v6 engine idea. Having a relatively cheap, 300hp v6 as an option is a great idea. We already know the base v8 is going to bring plenty of power to the table, it is good to hear a v6 will as well.

Keeping it simple keeps it cheaper. all are great engines and deliver more than enough power to satify most people. I think the day like in the 60's where 5-6 Engines per line are long over.

Actually if you count the different HP ratings for the same CID engines, there were often more than 5-6 different engines. Camaro in 1969 had two RPO 6 cylinder engines, eight RPO 8 cylinder engines, plus there were three more that I think were limited production/special order 8 cylinder engines. Lots of choices back then!
Clyde

Actually if you count the different HP ratings for the same CID engines, there were often more than 5-6 different engines. Camaro in 1969 had two RPO 6 cylinder engines, eight RPO 8 cylinder engines, plus there were three more that I think were limited production/special order 8 cylinder engines. Lots of choices back then!
Clyde

B ackin the day you could even get engines not offered offically if you knew the right COPO person.

Today you can't even delete power windows and door locks due to cost restraints. GM is going to have a good core group of engines that will take care of most any needs of 98% of the buyers.

The truth is in todays market and so many model line there is no needs for a large drivetrain selection anymore. In days past say in 1955 one car had to be all things to all people because they only offered one car model in wagon, sedan or coupe. The drivetrain made up for the lack of models.

Besides the cost of getting cerification for goverment regs has to be through the roof anymore added to the development cost of the engine it's self. Just the cost of California CARB board is bad enough.

Please not the Shelby 500 KR is now 550 HP so this should let you know where the Z28 will be going.

550 HP is as I suspected not going to be enough by 2010.

According to a recent issue of Road and Track, you can or will soon be able to obtain an unwarrantied Mustang called Super Snake, with 725 HP from the factory. Google can tell you more, but Ford isnt pulling their punches.

It will be interesting to see how much power chevy will bring to the 5th gen camaro. I agree with an earlier comment. The vette will always have the upper hand on more powerfull V-8s. It would kill the vette market to have a camaro with more hp than the vette. And in turn hurt chevy's market in the long run. The vette is here to stay. The camaro on the otherhand has a unknown future. It is obvious that chevy is marketing the camaro and building up the anticipation. Why??? To sell a sh$$$$t load of cars. Mustang has already a good market (and already and continues to make a lot of money) and thus can offer variants and selected amount of crazy hp engines--especially since companies such as Saleen has been working with them for years). Challenger is not looking to sell thousands so they are not prob. worried about the numbers as chevy. The camaro must sell or die (forever and thus forgotten). I doubt they will offer the Z28 with a choice of V-8s. More like a selection of 6s a V-8, and maybe a rare model that will not be to available.
I would be more interested in the aftermarket goodies for the camaro's engine. You can take the LS2 and do some major HP improvements to revile any aftermarket pony or challenger (and for a lost less than a possible factory 500+ HP camaro).

Just to clarify, the SRT8 Challenger will have 425hp, not 500hp.

It will be released in March/April 08. In July, the standard Challenger with the 345hp Hemi will be released, along with more SRT8 models but with a 6-speed option.

Expect the SRT8 version to be in the low $40K range with dealer markup. The price will stabilize at $39 - $40K as the year progresses and the buzz drops a bit.

At $35K, do not expect the Camaro to have anything but the 365 - 385hp G8 engine, which I believe is a variant of the LS2 but with different heads and cylinder deactivation for better gas mileage. The engine will be tuned for 87 octane, which is why the engine is underrated vs. the standard LS2. If a higher horsepower variant emerges, it will be in the low $40K range, and not be released the first year. Most likely, the engine will be based on the LS3.

Just to clarify, the SRT8 Challenger will have 425hp, not 500hp.

From what I've seen, it still hasn't been officially released, but I've read rumors/suspicions that they will have a 7 Liter 500hp+ version. Like I said, I don't closely follow the Challenger, so maybe I've just been checking the "wrong" source.

At $35K, do not expect the Camaro to have anything but the 365 - 385hp G8 engine
In my opinion that would be a HUGE mistake by GM as I think a lot of people (including me) ARE expecting an LS3 the first year. The base Corvette price went up a relatively small amount from 2007-2008 which tells me the LS3 isn't any more expensive to produce than the LS2. It would make NO SENSE AT ALL for Chevy to limit the first year V8 5th gen to the LS2.

Like I said, GM needs to start out with a very loud "BANG" first year out to get more attention than the Challenger as opposed to a "pop" and just hope people notice.

As posted on Autoblog:


"OntarioStreetCar reports that the Challenger arrives in March as a 2008 model. That first run of 5500 cars will all be 6.1L SRT8s equipped with automatic transmissions priced at $38,000. Starting in July, the MY09 Challenger will begin production, and the range will expand to include the 3.5L V6, the regular 5.7L HEMI, and of course, the SRT8 with the 6.1 HEMI. And finally, the best news of all: on the '09 Challenger, both HEMI flavors will be available with the T56 6-speed manual transmission."


The V8 in the G8 is called L76. It's basically an LS2 block, L92 heads, and L76 intake. Personally, this engine has potential. With cam and exhaust work, this engine can easily be made to produce over 450hp, as the LS2 crowd has been doing this with this parts already. The reason GM needs the L76 is gas mileage. Since it uses Active Fuel Management (cylinder deactivation) it is more frugal than your typical V8.

Just to clarify, the SRT8 Challenger will have 425hp, not 500hp.

It will be released in March/April 08. In July, the standard Challenger with the 345hp Hemi will be released, along with more SRT8 models but with a 6-speed option.

No.


At $35K, do not expect the Camaro to have anything but the 365 - 385hp G8 engine, which I believe is a variant of the LS2 but with different heads and cylinder deactivation for better gas mileage. The engine will be tuned for 87 octane, which is why the engine is underrated vs. the standard LS2. If a higher horsepower variant emerges, it will be in the low $40K range, and not be released the first year. Most likely, the engine will be based on the LS3.

Nope.

I'd be happy with ....

Base - 300HP V6
SS - 366HP L76 V8
Z28 - 436HP LS3

Z28 could start at $34,995 which would blow the GT500 away as far as value goes. Hopefully the Z28 would be 200lbs. lighter than the GT500 also.

I wouldn't want a top dog Camaro to be 70hp down (probably more by MY2010) to the top Mustang, 200 lbs notwithstanding.

I'd be happy with ....

Base - 300HP V6

No problem there.


SS - 366HP L76 V8

Not enough power to move it's likely lard ass. You are asking for a car that is slower than the 4th gen here, at a more expensive pricepoint than the 4th gen was.


Z28 - 436HP LS3
Z28 could start at $34,995 which would blow the GT500 away as far as value goes.

Value has an ugliness that can be attached with it. Meaning, when some people hear value, they think not as good, but cheaper. I know that is what I think. Besides, at $35k, 436hp by the end of the decade will be pretty weak. We also have no solid idea of what the Mustang will be bringing to the table at that point. I hope you weren't giving al 96 Ram Air T/A's much merit, because it is totally wrong.

Ok then RussStang, where are you getting your info from?

As for me, I've been following this info and comparing what has been posted on numerous sites. Most importantly, the info I posted on the SRT8 has been verified by Autoblog.

If you are so "in the know" share your sources.

I only post what I have been able to verify through accurate sources.


And, if you're implying that GM will put the LS3 in the car, and charge $35K, your nuts. Everything I've ever seen (right out of Maximum Bob's mouth) puts the Camaro at just shy of $35K in the fully optioned V8, and the LS3 is not going to be an option, at least in the first year.

If you "know" something definitive, please share. Don't use innuendo, use facts.

If you "know" something definitive, please share. Don't use innuendo, use facts.

I don't have any straight facts, but it is pretty obvious from the innuendo that a base v8 is still trying to be pushed under $30k, and that base v8 will likely be the LS3. It can't be that hard to believe, because Popular Hot Rod wrote an article about it awhile back.

Spend some time reading stuff around here, and the information you can pick up from insiders is pretty generous. I certainly can't comment on autoblog, but from what I have read on another board a few weeks ago, that lineup for Dodge is not completely accurate. There is working being done on a bigger Hemi, for starters. Also, there are no plans for the L76 to be used in the Camaro. As Z284ever (Charlie) has stated numerous time, that engine and possibly the LS3 may not even be in production by the time the Camaro comes out.

When did autoblog become the definitive source for information? Also, can you show me the quote where "Maximum Bob" made that statement? He has stated to the contrary before.

a base v8 is still trying to be pushed under $30k, and that base v8 will likely be the LS3.

That would be surprising to me -- from a marketing perspective. If Dodge brings out the 420hp-ish Challenger around $35k+, I can't see Chevy pricing their 420hp-ish Camaro $5k (or more) less. That would seem to indicate the "rest of the car" would be incredibly cheap.

Also, the G8 GT is just under $30k. I can't see Chevy putting in the more desirable LS3 in the Camaro and selling it at the same price. It would be worth more, so they should charge more for it. Otherwise, there will be a natural tendency to think the car is incredibly cheap (and not in a good way). Whether or not it actually is won't matter too much as the impression will be the same regardless (and manifest in a cheap/negative brand image).

Also, lets not forget about CAFE. It would actually make sense to have a hi mpg L76 derivative as well as a hi-hp LS3 derivative as well.

They like to talk how they have surprises up their sleeve. It wouldn't surprise me if they release two engines that are new to the Camaro by time it comes out.

anyone here think that the 7.0 could be the base motor in the camaro????
just askingNo.

I As Z284ever (Charlie) has stated numerous time, that engine and possibly the LS3 may not even be in production by the time the Camaro comes out.




By '12, (maybe before?), I fully expect the Camaro to get the new smallblocks. I think we'll see a version of the LS3 at intro though.

Thank you Rampant for saying what I have not been able to (clearly).

Let's not forget, the other SRT8 vehicles sell for $39,500 and up. That's if you can find one that doesn't have a dealer mark-up on it. Therefore, I cannot fathom why anyone would expect an SRT8 Challenger to sell for $35K.

Everyone, including those on the Dodge message boards, expect the 425hp Challenger to be in the low $40K range.

GM will price the Camaro to make money...not to make us happy. They are in the business for the business. If they price a 435 hp, LS3 based Camaro at $42K, they'll still sell as fast as $1 condoms at a porn festival.

Just simple math...

By '12, (maybe before?), I fully expect the Camaro to get the new smallblocks. I think we'll see a version of the LS3 at intro though.

For the "base V8" I can easily see the LS3 at intro, followed a year later by the LS3's replacement. (Whatever that is.) So it may be worth to wait until the 2011s roll out... at least. :D

GM will price the Camaro to make money...not to make us happy. They are in the business for the business. If they price a 435 hp, LS3 based Camaro at $42K, they'll still sell as fast as $1 condoms at a porn festival.

Just simple math...

They won't though. GM has stated they want to keep the top dog price around the $40k mark, and the top dog isn't only going to have 435hp. The rumor mill has it the top engine is going to be blown. Big power numbers there. Besides, there is no math to add up. LS engines are pretty similiar in price from what I understand; GM will make roughly the same profit on an L76 in a Camaro as they would an LS3.

The last time significant engine talk came up on this board, this is what the insiders hinted strongly at.

v6 3.6 300hpish
v8 6.2 400hpish
blown v8 6.2 500hpish

There apparently is some talk from Scott over in the other thread about two v6s again, as originally planned.

v6 3.6 300hpish
v8 6.2 400hpish
blown v8 6.2 500hpish
That's exactly how I see it. :D

V6 3.6L - the LLT is @ 302hp (or a derivative)
V8 6.2L - the LS3 is @ 430hp (or a derivative)
Blown V8 6.2L - the LSA is @ 525hp (or derivative of LS9, or ? )

Based on the roadmap for the next few years, those selections make the most sense to me.

Well, RussStang, if this is true, I will be pleasantly surprised. Mr. Settlemire, when he does release information, is honest with us. (when you mention Scott, I'm assuming your talking about the "F-Bodfather")

If GM can somehow stick a 400+ hp LS3 into the first gen Çamaro, and keep the price in the low $30's, my 96 may have to go bye-bye.

And, if they can somehow commit to releasing a near 500hp blown Camaro, and keep the price under $40K...my 96 is gone as well as my first born!:D


The thing is...GM has disappointed me before and I try not to get too excited until the car is in the lot.:cry:

If they price a 435 hp, LS3 based Camaro at $42K, they'll still sell as fast as $1 condoms at a porn festival.


I really doubt that. If you're talking $42K for a loaded convertible, sure, I can see that. But in my opinion, $42K for a BASE 435HP Camaro would be GROSSLY overpriced considering that a base Corvette currently retails for only $4,000 more. For a V8 Camaro to sell in volume, there needs to be a hell of a lot more distance between its price and that of a Corvette. I've always hated the "Camaro is the poor man's/working man's Corvette" saying, but it may not be too far from the truth. I know that not ALL Camaro drivers aspire to own a Corvette, but a V8 Camaro has definitely served as a "gateway drug" to plenty of Corvette sales. Having a new Vette and Camaro only $4K apart would probably cause quite a few potential Camaro buyers to jump to a new Corvette instead. Sure, GM would still be getting their money, but at the expense of Camaro's sales volume which is key to the Camaro staying around.

As far as the price of the V8 Challenger being in the low $40K range.......who cares?? Let Dodge worry about their potential customers choosing a 430ish HP 5th Gen for $10K less than the Challenger. More sales volume for the Camaro :thumb:.

I still don't see what the hang up is of NOT having an LS3 in the "base" V8 Camaro. For this being an enthusiast web site, some seem awfully eager to accept well under 400HP in a V8 :bang:. Hell, some would seem to be happy with 435HP in the "bad-ass" instead of the 500HP+that I think most would hope for. I must have missed something.....when did we decide we wanted to neuter the V8??

And yeah, I've already been told in other posts by those obviously much wiser than me :rolleyes: that I have unrealistically high standards, am greedy, and would be much better off with a Corvette as I am not a "real" Camaro guy....so no need to point out the obvious.

I really doubt that. If you're talking $42K for a loaded convertible, sure, I can see that. But in my opinion, $42K for a BASE 435HP Camaro would be GROSSLY overpriced considering that a base Corvette currently retails for only $4,000 more.


Just to clarify, $42K would not be for the BASE (i.e. no frills) model with the LS3. (Hypothetically speaking) It would be for a fully optioned LS3 "based" model (as in a LS3 block with a variation of the head designed for the L76).

I totally agree, $42K as the starting price would not be a good investment.

Just to clarify, $42K would not be for the BASE (i.e. no frills) model with the LS3. (Hypothetically speaking) It would be for a fully optioned LS3 "based" model (as in a LS3 block with a variation of the head designed for the L76).

Depending on how "loaded" it is, yeah, I can see that.

A Camaro with an LS3 won't be a "base" model. While it may be the "entry" level V8, it ceratainly won't be "no frills".

That's exactly how I see it. :D

V6 3.6L - the LLT is @ 302hp (or a derivative)
V8 6.2L - the LS3 is @ 430hp (or a derivative)
Blown V8 6.2L - the LSA is @ 525hp (or derivative of LS9, or ? )

Based on the roadmap for the next few years, those selections make the most sense to me.

i pretty much agree with this lineup but i dont believe that the LLT is going to be the base engine..

i'm thinking they'll use the 3.9L @ 240hp.. maybe the LZ8 w/AFM or the LGD w/ flexfuel

i pretty much agree with this lineup but i dont believe that the LLT is going to be the base engine..

i'm thinking they'll use the 3.9L @ 240hp.. maybe the LZ8 w/AFM or the LGD w/ flexfuel

I really hope they don't.

i'm thinking they'll use the 3.9L @ 240hp.. maybe the LZ8 w/AFM or the LGD w/ flexfuel

I really hope they don't.
Ditto.

The LZ8, LGD or even the LZ9 are all too weak for the Camaro V6. It needs closer to 300hp and the LLT would provide that. You want the most popular Camaro (in sales) be able to out perform the top Malibu V6, otherwise, what's the point? :(

LLT DI motor wont be base motor for Camaro. Its still exclusive to Caddy. Caddy would look silly if its optional V6 on the 35-40k CTS, and standard engine on the 42k STS would be standard in a 23k Camaro...
275hp 3.6 from the Lambda trio is my bet. More power then the the Malibu, till EPII.

Ditto.

The LZ8, LGD or even the LZ9 are all too weak for the Camaro V6. It needs closer to 300hp and the LLT would provide that. You want the most popular Camaro (in sales) be able to out perform the top Malibu V6, otherwise, what's the point? :(

The charger/magnum/300s have been using a 190hp V6 for years now and have been selling the CRAP out of them.

The 2.8 is even highly criticized for actually getting lower gas mileage than the 5.7 hemi's.

There are a suprising number of car purchasers today that base 100% of their car purchase on looks, and 0% on performance. Thats why scions are selling and thats why 2.8L 190hp sedans that weigh 4300lbs are selling.

There is a business case for economy mid sized cars and GM knows this. Why not sell a low pow V6 Camaro for that crowd? It will make money for GM. And its not like we will be buying it ;)

forget about it if you want a ls7 so bad then just special order it with your special camaro and do not say you cant do it because many people have done it in the past

forget about it if you want a ls7 so bad then just special order it with your special camaro and do not say you cant do it because many people have done it in the past

Like who?

Examples from the 60s aren't valid.

forget about it if you want a ls7 so bad then just special order it with your special camaro and do not say you cant do it because many people have done it in the past

That would be cool, but I highly doubt that will ever happen in todays assembly line production world.

Now, getting a shop to drop in the LS7 after you buy it is an entirely different proposition. It just makes it a lot more expensive since you can't lease a crate motor.

Why the discussion about V6 options in reference to top HP performance? Really, the V6 version is bought for the standard looks, fuel economy, cheaper insurance rates, ect.... If your going for power then you will need the V8 versions and sacrifice your priorities for the aforementioned features for power.

Why the discussion about V6 options in reference to top HP performance? Really, the V6 version is bought for the standard looks, fuel economy, cheaper insurance rates, ect.... If your going for power then you will need the V8 versions and sacrifice your priorities for the aforementioned features for power.Because 2/3rds of all Camaros sold will be V6s; therefore they must also perform at the top of their class.

forget about it if you want a ls7 so bad then just special order it with your special camaro and do not say you cant do it because many people have done it in the past

Ummmm.....okay :uhoh:.

Why the discussion about V6 options in reference to top HP performance? Really, the V6 version is bought for the standard looks, fuel economy, cheaper insurance rates, ect.... If your going for power then you will need the V8 versions and sacrifice your priorities for the aforementioned features for power.

:thumb: I agree, could have sworn the thread title was "More than one V-8 in the first year".
Clyde

Why the discussion about V6 options in reference to top HP performance? Really, the V6 version is bought for the standard looks, fuel economy, cheaper insurance rates, ect.... If your going for power then you will need the V8 versions and sacrifice your priorities for the aforementioned features for power.

Thinking like this led to HORRIBLE sales of the V6 4th gen Camaro.

V6 does NOT mean that the person does not want a well performing car.

Here is the thing. Camaro is a sports coupe. Muscle car, pony car, sports car,w hatever you want to lable it or use some sort of cute name, its a sports coupe. People expect a level of performance from a sport coupe. Now since Camaro is not some random car that GM just created, and it has a history, that Camaro must live up to a higher standard. To just forget about the V6 because only enthusiasts buy V8's is STUPID thinking, and will kill the 5th gen. It makes people feel like they had to "settle" for a lesser car when they should feel happy about owning a great car that handles well, performes well, and is economical.
They should not have to pony up several thousand dollars more for a V8 if they just want a solid sports coupe.
People should look at Camaro and go WOW THAT IS A GREAT CAR!
And when they drive it, they should get that same feeling, AT EVERY LEVEL!! They get the V6 because its in thier budget, but its also because they feel that the car he or she is buying is something that makes them happy, not cause they wanted a V8, but couldtn afford one, so they guess they will just get the lesser V6.

This type of mentality is right next to 502 Carbed Big Block 5th gen, and a solid rear 12 bolt axle. Engine + Box = fun.

V6 does NOT mean that the person does not want a well performing car.

I am not so sure. I see it as there are two different types of V6 buyers: those that want, but can't afford the V8; and those that just want a well priced, cool looking, four seat coupe. I also have a suspicion that most fall into the latter category. Sure, if it handles well and is fun to drive, that is a bonus, but not the main reason for the purchase.

So, for majority (as I see it) V6 buyer, things like looks, fuel economy, interior quality and practicality are tops--if not the entire--list to compare cars. The hp won't be an issue, as long as it is close to the competition (250-275hp will be more than enough).

Now, the "want a V8" guys will want as much hp as possible, but I don't think that is a large population. Of course, there are those that fall into this category, but how many in the grand scheme of things?

The Mustang V6 is no barn-burner. Heck, it has 58 less hp than a Camry or Accord and is an awful sporty car (severely underdamped/floaty suspension, poor gearing, no power, etc.), yet it sells well because it hits all the important areas (for the V6 buyer) well.

The Mustang V6 is no barn-burner. Heck, it has 58 less hp than a Camry or Accord and is an awful sporty car (severely underdamped/floaty suspension, poor gearing, no power, etc.), yet it sells well because it hits all the important areas (for the V6 buyer) well.

How many more buyers might it bring in along with the 2 demographics you targeted? There could be a completely undeveloped demographic out there for a v6 car that performs well.

I am not so sure. I see it as there are two different types of V6 buyers: those that want, but can't afford the V8; and those that just want a well priced, cool looking, four seat coupe. I also have a suspicion that most fall into the latter category. Sure, if it handles well and is fun to drive, that is a bonus, but not the main reason for the purchase.

Agreed, but a V6 with an optional performance handling package would benifit those who want a nice performing coupe.

So, for majority (as I see it) V6 buyer, things like looks, fuel economy, interior quality and practicality are tops--if not the entire--list to compare cars. The hp won't be an issue, as long as it is close to the competition (250-275hp will be more than enough).

Agreed to that, but you cant say that they dont worry about performance.

Now, the "want a V8" guys will want as much hp as possible, but I don't think that is a large population. Of course, there are those that fall into this category, but how many in the grand scheme of things?

I think thats were we go our seperate ways. V8 guys sure want the power, but they might not be able to afford it, or they dont want to pay the penalty for having such a high performance car. Only allowing V8 guys to ONLY have a LS3 V8 making 430hp, will mean that there will be a sacrafice on milage and on insurance. Having a mid to high 300hp V8 like the L76, would help secure a V8 car for most people not wanting to pay the costs of having a high performance V8 car, but want a V8.

The Mustang V6 is no barn-burner. Heck, it has 58 less hp than a Camry or Accord and is an awful sporty car (severely underdamped/floaty suspension, poor gearing, no power, etc.), yet it sells well because it hits all the important areas (for the V6 buyer) well.

It sells well cause of its design, but its sales numbers are coming down. Design cannot hold ground for long. The Mustang GT still sells well because its an affordable V8 car for well under 30k, and its got plenty of power to keep most people happy. Those that want more, will pay for more.

Camaro is does not offer the same options and choices for its customers, people will go elsewhere and there will only be the die hard enthusiasts who will stick around. Didnt work for the 4th gen, wont work now.

Only allowing V8 guys to ONLY have a LS3 V8 making 430hp, will mean that there will be a sacrafice on milage and on insurance. Having a mid to high 300hp V8 like the L76, would help secure a V8 car for most people not wanting to pay the costs of having a high performance V8 car, but want a V8.

Sorry, I am still not seeing what "penalties" you are referring to. It looks like the LS3, especially with AFM, could get the same mileage (or at least within 1 mpg) as the 3.6 V6 in the Malibu/CT-S -- let alone the L76 -- so I am not sure what "penalty" you are referring to as far as mileage goes.

As far as insurance is concerned, I think they just up the rates for a V8 -- not by hp, so I would expect rates to be the same for an LS3 or a L76. After all, 350hp is more than enough to get you into trouble.

Finally, I don't know the production costs, but it is more than likely the LS3 costs just about the same as the L76 (or very similar), so that might not even effect pricing in a noticeable way.

In short, I am still not convinced there will be any "penalty" for the LS3 over the L76.

Now, if they came out with a derivative of the L76 that was significantly cheaper and got significantly better mileage, I would agree with you. But, as it stands now, I am not seeing it (though I could be wrong).

However, this does illustrate what makes building this car SO difficult for GM. They have to appeal to a very wide range of buyers, all who want different things -- from the looks-only buyer, to the "just the right amount of hp" buyer, to the "ever hp you can squeeze" buyer -- all who want better quality than they want to/can pay for. It is certainly a very difficult line to walk, and there is no way to please everyone.

How many more buyers might it bring in along with the 2 demographics you targeted? There could be a completely undeveloped demographic out there for a v6 car that performs well.

You're absolutely right -- there could be a completely undeveloped demographic out there. But, if you were GM, would you build a car for a target you know exists, or a potential demographic you hope is there.

The Aztec comes to mind as reason not to build something and hope the consumers get your concept -- albeit an extreme one at that.

While, as an enthusiast, I really wish they would build a cheap, performance-oriented V6, I just don't see the market for it right now. However, if they can hit all the other targets (looks, practicality, quality interior, price) AND build the performance as well (a very tall order, for sure), I think it could help shift the market a bit and get people thinking about performance and the fun of driving again. But, you have to hit the main issues first.

After all, the slow death of the manual transmission should be an indication that the enthusiast population is shrinking every day. Ironically, they also seem to be getting more intense about their enthusiasm as well. Which brings us back to the problem of building a car to suit a very diverse audience.

You're absolutely right -- there could be a completely undeveloped demographic out there. But, if you were GM, would you build a car for a target you know exists, or a potential demographic you hope is there.



I would put in a v6 that would target my demographic that is already established, and could possibly tap an unrepresented. The 3.6 would give the v6 owner's that couldn't care less about performance the fuel economy and smooth driving mannerisms they will likely care about, but also the performance for someone who might want that in a v6.

I just read trough 2 engine threads and i must say that i'm just about to cry :cry:

Of course GM is having a hard time pleasing everybody. There are many types of consumers to satisfy and my opinion is just one opinion.

I would GREATLY prefer a 250hp V8 over a 300hp V6 on steroids. Having a V8 is a standing, a privilege, a honor. Having a V6 is just "i couldn't afford the V8". And i wouldn't wanna be the pour soul to announce "Ok it's a 6 but it's the big one, really it performs".

Maybe that doesn't make sense to any of you, but having the sound and torque behavior of a small block V8 just seals the deal for me.

i must say that if they only offer 2 V6 and one pricey V8, i might just wait and buy a used one to swap a capable engine in it.

Having a V6 is just "i couldn't afford the V8". And i wouldn't wanna be the pour soul to announce "Ok it's a 6 but it's the big one, really it performs".
Or...it's "I don't want to /can't pay insurance, and gas prices of a V8".;)
I like V8's too. But there's nothing wrong with a good and powerful V6. it's just us crazies who like the V8's.:p

Might take a look at production/sales numbers back in the 70s when the Camaro was selling near 280k units a year. The majority of sales was the smaller V8 engine cars. 36,982 6-cyl, 235,649 V8 with 55,000 Z28. I think the V6 cars would not appeal to the enthusiasts so no real need for a hi-po version here. A Sport Coupe six cylinder, an RS with a 5.3L V8 (300hp there folks), and the fire breathing Z28 for the serious performance people.

Might take a look at production/sales numbers back in the 70s when the Camaro was selling near 280k units a year. The majority of sales was the smaller V8 engine cars. 36,982 6-cyl, 235,649 V8 with 55,000 Z28. I think the V6 cars would not appeal to the enthusiasts so no real need for a hi-po version here. A Sport Coupe six cylinder, an RS with a 5.3L V8 (300hp there folks), and the fire breathing Z28 for the serious performance people.
:lol: Only one problem with the 5.3. Do you like your Camaro's FWD? ;)

:lol: Only one problem with the 5.3. Do you like your Camaro's FWD? ;)

What does a 5.3 have to do with a nonexistent FWD Camaro?

I still don't see what the hang up is of NOT having an LS3 in the "base" V8 Camaro. For this being an enthusiast web site, some seem awfully eager to accept well under 400HP in a V8 :bang:. Hell, some would seem to be happy with 435HP in the "bad-ass" instead of the 500HP+that I think most would hope for. I must have missed something.....when did we decide we wanted to neuter the V8??

And yeah, I've already been told in other posts by those obviously much wiser than me :rolleyes: that I have unrealistically high standards, am greedy, and would be much better off with a Corvette as I am not a "real" Camaro guy....so no need to point out the obvious.

I'm right there with you...I mean come on is not like it cannot be done...because i'm pretty sure it can be done...This is how I See it...

V6---300hpish $25K
Base V8 ---400hpish $30K
Top Dawg V8 Z28/SS---500hpish $35K <<<Likely doubt that being the price on the top dawg though...

And I say release only the V6 And the base V8 for the first year and see how it does...And then release the Top Dawg the year after As An SS And/Or A Z28...

That's my 2 cents on that...

i must say that if they only offer 2 V6 and one pricey V8, i might just wait and buy a used one to swap a capable engine in it.

No need, its already been stated in this thread that a V8 will be available at entry and the "top dog" V8 later on which makes perfect sense. Forget the G8's motor, I think its almost a guarentee that an LSx based motor will be the basis for both of Camaro's V8's with probably an LS3 variant at entry and I'd guess something like the LS8 down the road. And I'd say the LS3 more than qualifies as "capable".

Also offering the top model a year or so after Camaro's entry is essential IMO. You have to keep interest up for the car during the model generation run. And releasing a powerful heavy hitter a year after intro not only would sell the hard hitting model but would also give a sales splash to the whole model line along with generating interest. Offering all the models at once during intro would be a foolish business decision.

And I'm glad to hear GM is looking at 2 V6's again. Covers two different crowds and gives more Camaros at steady different price points to choose from. :thumb:

I'm right there with you...I mean come on is not like it cannot be done...because i'm pretty sure it can be done...This is how I See it...

V6---300hpish $25K
Base V8 ---400hpish $30K
Top Dawg V8 Z28/SS---500hpish $35K <<<Likely doubt that being the price on the top dawg though...

And I say release only the V6 And the base V8 for the first year and see how it does...And then release the Top Dawg the year after As An SS And/Or A Z28...

That's my 2 cents on that...

Read jg's and Z284evers posts on the first 3 pages and I think they have a very good view on what we're most likely to see as far as model lineup goes:


Perf V6
Entry V8 (LS3 or newer replacement)
Top V8 (maybe LS8 being LSA is Caddy's and LS9 is handbuilt limited prod)

Only thing I'd add is a base V6 model with less than 300hp as the entry level Camaro with the new talk of 2 V6's. I'd say 4 models all at different power points and price points is a very solid lineup.

I'm fairly optimistic the 260 hp 3.6 VVT will be the standard V6 engine. If they go with the 3.5 or 3.9 I'd be rather dissapointed. Neither of those engines belong in a Camaro, even in base form. Besides, the 3.6 is officially replacing the 3800 as GM's premire V6 engine accross all lines as of next year (3800 production is ceasing). Following that logic, the 3800 was the base V6 for 1998-2002, hence the 3.6 should be the base for 5th gens.

What does a 5.3 have to do with a nonexistent FWD Camaro?
Nothing, really. I was just being smart. The only 5.3 V8 GM is producing right now would be the LS4, The Impala's FWD V8. So as it stands, it wouldn't work in the Camaro. That's all I was referencing.

Nothing, really. I was just being smart. The only 5.3 V8 GM is producing right now would be the LS4, The Impala's FWD V8. So as it stands, it wouldn't work in the Camaro. That's all I was referencing.The 5.3 is used in Chevy Silverados and has been for years. Aluminum and iron block versions with AFM.

The 5.3 is used in Chevy Silverados and has been for years. Aluminum and iron block versions with AFM.:irk:What?! :nuts: Wow.....I have no idea how I missed that one.:rolleyes: That was dumb - sorry.

Though, I still can't see those being used.;) They've got les power than the 2002's...

So, for majority (as I see it) V6 buyer, things like looks, fuel economy, interior quality and practicality are tops--if not the entire--list to compare cars. The hp won't be an issue, as long as it is close to the competition (250-275hp will be more than enough).

Now, the "want a V8" guys will want as much hp as possible, but I don't think that is a large population. Of course, there are those that fall into this category, but how many in the grand scheme of things?

The Mustang V6 is no barn-burner. Heck, it has 58 less hp than a Camry or Accord and is an awful sporty car (severely underdamped/floaty suspension, poor gearing, no power, etc.), yet it sells well because it hits all the important areas (for the V6 buyer) well.

I think that the v6 buyers who wish they were getting a v8 also include those who’s parents or spouse won’t let them get a v8 because a v8 is too powerful, and/or expensive and/or not green enough.

I think that this demographic might be the business case for a 2nd v6. If the Camaro has a faster v6 than Ford & Mopar while beating the G37, 135i, et al. soundly on price then GM should be able to score a huge share of this segment of the v6 buying demo. I assuming, of course, that this demo really is big enough to bother with.

GM will price the Camaro to make money...not to make us happy. They are in the business for the business. If they price a 435 hp, LS3 based Camaro at $42K, they'll still sell as fast as $1 condoms at a porn festival.

Just simple math...

Did your simple math show you , that you can buy a Corvette w/ the LS3 for that price? A base vette is around 41k....So exactly who would buy a Camaro over a vette.....

Did your simple math show you , that you can buy a Corvette w/ the LS3 for that price? A base vette is around 41k....So exactly who would buy a Camaro over a vette.....Actually the base Vette coupe is closer to $47k. A quick check of dealers in my area only two base vettes were priced under $50k. On average they were around $53k. :rolleyes:

However, the point is the Camaro will sell. The LS3 Camaro will be priced close to a similarly equipped Mustang, which will probably be around $31k, not $41k. :D

Actually the base Vette coupe is closer to $47k. A quick check of dealers in my area only two base vettes were priced under $50k. On average they were around $53k. :rolleyes:

However, the point is the Camaro will sell. The LS3 Camaro will be priced close to a similarly equipped Mustang, which will probably be around $31k, not $41k. :D

I bought mine new for 42.5k included z51 package and up cost paint. MSRP was 47,900. The current base is 46,950.00 Considering I got mine5,400 off msrp ordered just like i wanted it from the factory using Rick from Les Stanford Chevy who is a corvette forum supporting dealer. Lets say I got Rick to get an 09 for me at the same time the camaro is available in 09. I should be able to get a base for 41,450.00. There will be no discounts on the Camaro. So I ask again who wouldn`t buy the vette at 41k as the other poster suggested might be the cost of the camaro. Now at 31k as you suggest there are a lot of people who would choose the Camaro over the vette. I personally want both. I have the vette 6sp manual z51 for the twisties already, my new camaro will have an auto, big stall for drag racing.

I bought mine new for 42.5k included z51 package and up cost paint. MSRP was 47,900. The current base is 46,950.00 Considering I got mine5,400 off msrp ordered just like i wanted it from the factory using Rick from Les Stanford Chevy who is a corvette forum supporting dealer. Lets say I got Rick to get an 09 for me at the same time the camaro is available in 09. I should be able to get a base for 41,450.00. There will be no discounts on the Camaro. So I ask again who wouldn`t buy the vette at 41k as the other poster suggested might be the cost of the camaro. Now at 31k as you suggest there are a lot of people who would choose the Camaro over the vette. I personally want both. I have the vette 6sp manual z51 for the twisties already, my new camaro will have an auto, big stall for drag racing.Agreed I would like to have both but when it came down to it I think the Vette is gonna be the car. The days of a 3200lb factory Camaro are over and even if the Camaro gets 500hp it's still not gonna perform better than a 430hp Vette that's at least 500lb's lighter. Not that I would ever try it but 190mph top speed is pretty impressive compared to 155-160 on the Camaro. You can find a "Base" Corvette which will outrun and outhandle the baddest Camaro coming out for $40k without looking too hard. Heck the GT500 is going for $46-$50k starting price and it can't outrun or outhandle an LS2 Vette. I think the days of these cars however is numbered so get whatever you can now because there's no telling what the Dems are gonna propose when they win this November.