Top dog designation answered?

From the press release for the '08 turbocharged HHR SS. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/16/happy-woodward-chevy-debuts-2008-hhr-ss/

"The ’08 HHR SS was engineered by GM Performance Division and is the first SS model developed since GMPD was charged with overseeing all of the “go, stop and turn” requirements demanded of any new Chevrolet wearing the SS badge.

“Beginning with HHR SS, all future SS models will have superior power, braking and handling capabilities for maximum credibility with our customers and enthusiasts alike,” said John Heinricy, GM Performance Division executive. “The SS badge represents high performance, and the HHR SS delivers with a fully-integrated, balanced driving experience.”

I think the evidence is pretty clear considering how they have been cleaning up the focus of the SS line over the past year. Is there really any question as to which badges the "top dog" Camaro will wear?

None of that says that it will be the top level, just high level.

To answer your question, no...it does not define what will be the top level.

I wouldn't over-read into that. It simply means that the practice of merely adding chrome wheels and mesh grill, no longer will qualify a car as an "SS".

BTW, GMPD did the the Cobalt SS SC, Trailblazer SS as well as the Ion RL.

SS cars which didn't go through GMPD were Malibu SS, Cobalt SS (n/a), Impala SS and Monte Carlo SS.

From the press release for the '08 turbocharged HHR SS. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/16/happy-woodward-chevy-debuts-2008-hhr-ss/



I think the evidence is pretty clear considering how they have been cleaning up the focus of the SS line over the past year. Is there really any question as to which badges the "top dog" Camaro will wear?

I wouldn't close the case just yet, although the defense is compelling.

While I can easily see Z28 becoming a performance package and the SS being the "Super Camaro", I can still see a Camaro SS having exclusive use of the 6.2 and handling to match (which would fit the SS mantra) and a Z28 as a Z06-like ultimate race course car.

There's enough out there to support either view. So we'll have to wait some more before we can close this case. :shrug:

I have a feeling that the Z28 and SS will both have their points in such a way that even after the release there won't be a clear definition of which is "better".

I have a feeling that the Z28 and SS will both have their points in such a way that even after the release there won't be a clear definition of which is "better".which is the way it should be. both should be "top dogs"...just in different performance areas.

Trust me the SS is the Standard performance model as it is in all Chevy models that sport the badge..,...

But epect the Z/28 to be the later released performance car and Shelby killer.

Any Chevy can be a SS but only a Camaro can be a Z28!!

What I want to know is what will the upscale V6 Performance car carry for a name. I would expcect it to do better than just RS. I would hope they spell out the Rally Sport.

The V6 is the most importnat car coming and will be into the future.

What I want to know is what will the upscale V6 Performance car carry for a name. I would expcect it to do better than just RS. I would hope they spell out the Rally Sport.

The V6 is the most importnat car coming and will be into the future.

Well the top V6 wont be RS or Rally Sport. We already know that. Rally Sport will be offered across the board and is nothing more than an apprearance package. No performance included whatsoever.

I would expcect it to do better than just RS. I would hope they spell out the Rally Sport.

I feel just the opposite. I much prefer an 'RS' badge to a fully spelled out Rally Sport.

That would be as unattractive as Super Sport instead of SS imo.

which is the way it should be. both should be "top dogs"...just in different performance areas.

That's been my hope all along too.

I feel just the opposite. I much prefer an 'RS' badge to a fully spelled out Rally Sport.

That would be as unattractive as Super Sport instead of SS imo.

The RS has to over come a lame engine package rep of the recent past RS V6 cars. None of these were great cars as they were small engines asked to move heavy good looking cars and few bought them.

The new engine will draw in new buyers as it will be a respectable player but too many will recall the RS name of the under powered cars.

The RS has to over come a lame engine package rep of the recent past RS V6 cars. None of these were great cars as they were small engines asked to move heavy good looking cars and few bought them.

The new engine will draw in new buyers as it will be a respectable player but too many will recall the RS name of the under powered cars.

RS does not equal V6

The RS has to over come a lame engine package rep of the recent past RS V6 cars. None of these were great cars as they were small engines asked to move heavy good looking cars and few bought them.

The new engine will draw in new buyers as it will be a respectable player but too many will recall the RS name of the under powered cars.


But RS is just an appearance package...

And to be honest, the 4th Gens with the GFX package (first called RS, then just Sport Appearance Package) were the only ones I found visually appealing. Without the package the 4th Gens were much too bland.

I'd gladly have 'RS' displayed on my new Camaro.

That said, if so many want the Z28 to be some monster Camaro (ie- GT500 competitor) what do they propose as the trim level names be?

Camaro V6
Camaro SS (Base V8)
Camaro Z28 (Monster V8)

Is that what is being proposed? Personally I don't like the idea of there not being any kind of midway model between V6 and SS.

I'd much prefer they stick with the 4th Gen hierarchy (V6, Z28, SS). OR if they insist on SS not being top, they eliminate the SS name altogether and have V6, Z28 and some other designation for the top model.

I'd much prefer they stick with the 4th Gen hierarchy (V6, Z28, SS). OR if they insist on SS not being top, they eliminate the SS name altogether and have V6, Z28 and some other designation for the top model.

Why?

One of the biggest beefs with the 4th gen was lack of differentiated models. I see a role for both SS and Z/28 in a new line up. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see a V6 performance version above the base V6 and below the SS.

From what I've been told, the Z/28 will be analogous to the Z06.

How about v6, Z28, SS, and top dog being Z/28 SS :cool:

or ZL1 being the top dog...

What my true hope is:

Base V6 250 hp, high volume seller

HI-PO V6 300-320 hp, better suspension, wheels, brakes, gearing, in a sense, like a Z/28 package for the V6. But NOT a Z/28

Base V8 430 hp LS3, Called the SS, 18-20" wheels, leather, full of available options, basically luxury speed.

Z/28 V8 430-450 hp LS3, stiffer suspension, cross drilled rotors, lighter wheels and tires, better overall handling, gearing, etc.

After a year of so, throw in a 500 hp Supercharged V8 that will be a low volume, shelby ass whipping machine....ZL1 maybe?

Then i hope an RS pack will be offered with ANY model of the pack, just being an option pack for apperance only, i dont see why this would be a problem.

This way, you could get a FAST camaro, with the LS3, and then its up to the buyer whether or not he wants the road racing beast, or the Shiny, clean street car. Both of which would still be fast as hell, just set up for different types of drivers. And maybe give the Z just a small bump in horsepower...just for the hell of it.

To me this whole Z/28 vs. SS issue is silly. For me I'll go for the one I can afford or willing to pay for with the options available that I like the best. I'm not loyal to the type only the car itself. That being said.

To me what is the Z/28 and does it even have a place in the modern lineup?

When I think back to the Z/28 and SS in the 1st Gens its funny becuase other than making a car for Trans Am racing there was no need to have the Z/28. As history showed the Z/28 gained strong appeal and was as sought after as the SS and eventually took over to be the only V8 Camaro. But in doing so it lost it's identity.

Let's look at this another way unless Chevy plans a return to racing and is in need of a spec Camaro to do so why would they really have it come back? Really if it's not a high revving 302ci V8 with stripes and stiff suspension isn't bringing it back treating the name and heritage like the 2nd - 4th Gens did?

If Chevy wants to sell cars a SS as the V8 Camaro will do just fine. Not to mention as it left off in the 4th gen it's seen by many as the top Camaro, certainly the most expensive.

Ya can't say the Z/28 issue isn't about heritage but then not want the car to keep it's heritage if it becomes the top Camaro in price and power how does that honor the heritage?

How about v6, Z28, SS, and top dog being Z/28 SS :cool:

Sorry, I think the Z/28 and the SS should be distinct and completely different models, I think it absurd to combine the two models, if they can be combined then we don't need both. An RS package is a different situation, being pretty much an appearance package it can go on either one. A Z/28 should not need a SS package to increase it's horsepower and a SS should not need a Z/28 package to make it's suspension/handling better, a SS should be a standalone general purpose high performance package targeting the segment wanting a high power drivetrain with excellent city/highway handling, the Z/28 should be a standalone specialized high performance package combining high performance drivetrain with "sports car" type handling, stiffer suspension, etc. targeting the segment more interested in overall handling/acceleration rather than straight line performance. But, that's just my opinion.
Clyde

To me this whole Z/28 vs. SS issue is silly. For me I'll go for the one I can afford or willing to pay for with the options available that I like the best. I'm not loyal to the type only the car itself.

Here Here! :bow:

Only with Camaro people, do you even have this type of ridiculous debate. :lol:

Over on Mustang sites, you don't have this "Who's on type" issue. Cobra, Mach 1, Boss... you're all part of the family, and each version is appriciated.

Being that there hasn't been any Camaros at all the past 5 years, you'd expect that would be even more of the case here.

Is that what is being proposed? Personally I don't like the idea of there not being any kind of midway model between V6 and SS.


i don't think that's gonna happen.. base model with a 3.9.. then a 3.6 w/DI as a step up.. called RS? who knows. then a SS w/ the LS3.. at launch the SS will be the "top dog" at the launch of the car.. then after some time, they come out with the Z/28 above the SS

How about bringing back the wonderful Iroc Z name. :D Iroc can be the entry level V8 and Z28 can be top dog.

And yea, they can make a super luxury Berlinetta edition with a V6...

Has it been confirmed that there will be a limited edition, high performance, v8 model? I wonder if a Camaro that is SO exclusive will start to take a bit from entry-level Corvettes. I mean, yeah, the Camaro has two more seats, but would the buyer of a high-performance, limited edition Camaro really care about that? Wouldn't they just be interested in performance and therefore migrate to a 'vette for...I dunno....$5k more?

Has it been confirmed that there will be a limited edition, high performance, v8 model? I wonder if a Camaro that is SO exclusive will start to take a bit from entry-level Corvettes. I mean, yeah, the Camaro has two more seats, but would the buyer of a high-performance, limited edition Camaro really care about that? Wouldn't they just be interested in performance and therefore migrate to a 'vette for...I dunno....$5k more?

i don't think it will cannibalzie sales from the vette... the vette is a much smaller, lighter, more nimble sports car.. and even if the camaro has more power, it likely won't compete with the vette.

last thing i want is a car as heavy as the GT500.. but when a magazine did a comparison of the 500hp GT500 vs a base 400hp vette.. despite the rated 100hp deficit.. the Vette won every single performance category..

What my true hope is:

Base V6 250 hp, high volume seller

HI-PO V6 300-320 hp, better suspension, wheels, brakes, gearing, in a sense, like a Z/28 package for the V6. But NOT a Z/28

Base V8 430 hp LS3, Called the SS, 18-20" wheels, leather, full of available options, basically luxury speed.

Z/28 V8 430-450 hp LS3, stiffer suspension, cross drilled rotors, lighter wheels and tires, better overall handling, gearing, etc.

After a year of so, throw in a 500 hp Supercharged V8 that will be a low volume, shelby ass whipping machine....ZL1 maybe?

Then i hope an RS pack will be offered with ANY model of the pack, just being an option pack for apperance only, i dont see why this would be a problem.

This way, you could get a FAST camaro, with the LS3, and then its up to the buyer whether or not he wants the road racing beast, or the Shiny, clean street car. Both of which would still be fast as hell, just set up for different types of drivers. And maybe give the Z just a small bump in horsepower...just for the hell of it.

Your kind of close to what we will see.

The V6 entry will be 240 HP approx

The Hi Po standard car will be 300+ and may be up to 320 HO 3.6 V6

The SS at 430 HP pretty much the Vette engine

The Z/28 with 550 HP Approx It will be more then the Shelby. Watch what engine the CTSV gets.

This is not what I think but just what I have learned form many different scouces.

With a 300 HP + v6 there is no need for a lesser V8 [For Gods sake that is what the old Z had] Also with milage being a factor there sould be a lot of marketing aimed for the V6 Camaro as this is the car that has to sell in greater numbers than the V8. If you want this car to last you have to sell the better milage car in higher numbers like the Mustang. GM knows this and has prepared the new Camaro to reflect this.

The new 3.6 engine looks like it is going to be the SBC of the future and is a good engine. It will power many different cars and show us power that we never thought we would see in a V6.

Gas prices will go up again and if GM want this car to sell the V6 will be a most important roll. Besides DC is not done with CAFE yet as it can and will return with those wanting to raise it again.

There are many more factors than just what we want involved and GM is working to meet all they can to make as many as they can happy.

From what I've been told, the Z/28 will be analogous to the Z06.

That's what I am thinking. I just can't see them naming the top dog car the Z/28 when every other car they will be producing will have the SS moniker on their highest performing models (even the Corvette.) I forsee a V6 model, an LS3 equipped car, and a limited production car with whatever designation they give the S/C 6.2 that's going in the Corvette SS albeit probably with a larger pulley and more conservative tune. If the SS moniker is good enough for GM's poster child then it's definately gonna go for the Camaro.

On a side note I also don't see 2 V6 models making it into the arena. How are you going to price a Hi-Po V6 compared to the base model V8 car? I don't see enough of a market gap to necessitate one.

every other car they will be producing will have the SS moniker on their highest performing models (even the Corvette.)

Don't be so sure on that, especially the "Corvette SS" part. Has that been confirmed yet? I don't believe that the "SS" is always the top of the line in performance for the future.

Didn't take long for this to degrade into a Z28 vs SS thread :rolleyes:

I've owned 4 Z28's and only 1 SS, but honestly, I could care less what they call the "top dog".

As long as they make a 500hp+ car and use the "Z28" to designate ONE of the V8 choices, I could give a cr@p if the top one is called SS, Z28, ZL1, or whatever else.

....as long as they don't call it called "Bumblebee" :p

To me this whole Z/28 vs. SS issue is silly. For me I'll go for the one I can afford or willing to pay for with the options available that I like the best. I'm not loyal to the type only the car itself. That being said.

To me what is the Z/28 and does it even have a place in the modern lineup?

When I think back to the Z/28 and SS in the 1st Gens its funny becuase other than making a car for Trans Am racing there was no need to have the Z/28. As history showed the Z/28 gained strong appeal and was as sought after as the SS and eventually took over to be the only V8 Camaro. But in doing so it lost it's identity.

Let's look at this another way unless Chevy plans a return to racing and is in need of a spec Camaro to do so why would they really have it come back? Really if it's not a high revving 302ci V8 with stripes and stiff suspension isn't bringing it back treating the name and heritage like the 2nd - 4th Gens did?

If Chevy wants to sell cars a SS as the V8 Camaro will do just fine. Not to mention as it left off in the 4th gen it's seen by many as the top Camaro, certainly the most expensive.

Ya can't say the Z/28 issue isn't about heritage but then not want the car to keep it's heritage if it becomes the top Camaro in price and power how does that honor the heritage?

The Z/28 is much more important to Camaro than the SS.

The original Z/28 was a street version of a race car built for homologation purposes. It became popular because of this image. Camaro SS's were just street cars - your garden-variety sports coupe back then. There wasn't really anything unique about them, unlike the Z/28. The Z/28 was special. As time went on, it forged a new image, as the top of the line Camaro after the death of the SS. It stayed like this for decades. Then, it was decided that a special-edition Camaro was to be made, and it took the SS moniker, because that was a historically available name.

The Z/28 definitely has earned it's spot in the 5th gen lineup. It was more special than the original SS's, and was the top dog Camaro for decades. We should erase all that history because of what amounted to an appearance package offered for the final 6 years of the 4th gen? I think not.

The Z/28 should be to the Camaro what the Z06 is to the Corvette.

/thread.

Here Here! :bow:

Only with Camaro people, do you even have this type of ridiculous debate. :lol:

Over on Mustang sites, you don't have this "Who's on type" issue. Cobra, Mach 1, Boss... you're all part of the family, and each version is appriciated.

Being that there hasn't been any Camaros at all the past 5 years, you'd expect that would be even more of the case here.

This is true, but its a little different on the Camaro side of the fence. All those special edition Mustangs are specific Mustang models with the "GT" model carrying the volume V8 sales. You'd never see a GT model coming out and boasting more bang than a Mach 1 or a Cobra.

Same with Chevy, the SS model is a Chevrolet designation for all its models but Z/28 is a Camaro specific model and a moniker that carries alot of performance heritage. I have no doubt that the SS will carry some great performance but my hope is the Z/28 returns as a true canyon carving, fire-breathing beast very much at home on a race track.

Here Here! :bow:

Only with Camaro people, do you even have this type of ridiculous debate. :lol:

Over on Mustang sites, you don't have this "Who's on type" issue. Cobra, Mach 1, Boss... you're all part of the family, and each version is appriciated.

Being that there hasn't been any Camaros at all the past 5 years, you'd expect that would be even more of the case here.

To me this whole Z/28 vs. SS issue is silly. For me I'll go for the one I can afford or willing to pay for with the options available that I like the best. I'm not loyal to the type only the car itself. That being said.

To me what is the Z/28 and does it even have a place in the modern lineup?

When I think back to the Z/28 and SS in the 1st Gens its funny becuase other than making a car for Trans Am racing there was no need to have the Z/28. As history showed the Z/28 gained strong appeal and was as sought after as the SS and eventually took over to be the only V8 Camaro. But in doing so it lost it's identity.

Let's look at this another way unless Chevy plans a return to racing and is in need of a spec Camaro to do so why would they really have it come back? Really if it's not a high revving 302ci V8 with stripes and stiff suspension isn't bringing it back treating the name and heritage like the 2nd - 4th Gens did?

If Chevy wants to sell cars a SS as the V8 Camaro will do just fine. Not to mention as it left off in the 4th gen it's seen by many as the top Camaro, certainly the most expensive.

Ya can't say the Z/28 issue isn't about heritage but then not want the car to keep it's heritage if it becomes the top Camaro in price and power how does that honor the heritage?

Forget about what WE think - having both a well developed and distinct SS and Z/28 program is a marketing opportunity for Camaro. To not take advantage of what both of those names bring to the table - to consumers, to fans and to the media at large, would really be completely stupid, IMO. You'd better believe that Camaro's competitors will be focusing on specific niches with their cars. Why wouldn't Chevy?

I suppose we could call them model A and model B, but somehow in my mind, I don't know what A or B represent. I do however know what an SS represents in the general Chevy line up and what a Z/28 represents in a Camaro line up.

As far as continuing things as they were left off on the 4th gen... now that's silly.
There are probably about two dozen guys on the planet, who truly believe that Chevy's desperate deal to squeeze profit out of the dead/dying 4th gen with SLP, somehow defines Camaro history. It doesn't.
I'd guess 95% of the consumers who will consider a new Camaro, will have no knowledge of what happened, how it happened, or what the line up was during the 4th gen.

But ask those same people what a Z/28 is. They'll tell you....

Don't be so sure on that, especially the "Corvette SS" part. Has that been confirmed yet? I don't believe that the "SS" is always the top of the line in performance for the future.

I wasn't sure if they had confirmed that or not but it does seem like GM is pointing that direction. Well at least with the Chevy brand. But you have gotten to go a little more "inside" than I have so I am definately intrigued. In reality I think more like a couple of the other posters on this thread. I don't really care what they call it as long as they build it.

You know, what really gets me from that release is the part where Heinricy says "all future SS models will have superior power, braking and handling capabilities" Isn't that exactly the original definition of Z28?

Even though many on this site, camaroz28.com know the history of Z28, we can't come close to agreeing on placing it above the SS. And the general car buying public was very fooled by the 4th gen SS package (and the same for the WS6 TA). They were purchased in droves relative to the standard V8 cars. We know the power difference was negligible at best, but in my experience your average car buyer (and even some not-so-average ones) thinks the SS and WS6 were far and away the best performers in the last gen.

I don't know how its going to shake out but honestly they have given us every clue in the world pointing to SS. Some appear to claim they have inside knowledge that Z28 will be it. This may be one of those decisions decided by the marketing dept. and could be changed at any time up until the last minute. There were no badges other than Camaro on the concepts...

You know, what really gets me from that release is the part where Heinricy says "all future SS models will have superior power, braking and handling capabilities" Isn't that exactly the original definition of Z28?

i took that as meaning they'll be superior compared to what SS has been in recent history.. we all know SS hasnt been following that formula

Even though many on this site, camaroz28.com


try this.. go to www.camaross.com ;)

Even though many on this site, camaroz28.com

try this.. go to www.camaross.com ;)

Those, among others. :D

Those, among others. :D

:bow: :cool:

To me thats what has always been. The Z28's were smaller displacement and light for the roadcourse, SS's were heavy high powered big blocks for the street. same in a way with the fourth Gen and it should be with the fifth. Especially if they put the supercharged motor in the top model.

But ask those same people what a Z/28 is. They'll tell you....

I see that exact sentiment as the very reason Z28 should be 'affordable performance', not 'uber Camaro' with a huge price tag that will be out of reach to most of the buyers.

IMO just completely eliminate SS from the lineup. Why doesn't that possibility ever get brought up?

I'd rather see Camaro, Camaro Z28 and Camaro ZL1.

ZL1 is a designation that is known to be rare. Z28's should not be rare on the road.

The Mustang shares no designation with any other Ford car (that I can think of), neither should the Camaro with it's Chevy siblings.

Is there any other Ford product that they put 'GT' on regularly?

Let's just lose SS altogether on the Camaro.

Camaro - Mustang
Camaro Z28 - Mustang GT
Camaro ZL1 - Mustang GT500

That's what I am thinking. I just can't see them naming the top dog car the Z/28 when every other car they will be producing will have the SS moniker on their highest performing models (even the Corvette.) I forsee a V6 model, an LS3 equipped car, and a limited production car with whatever designation they give the S/C 6.2 that's going in the Corvette SS albeit probably with a larger pulley and more conservative tune. If the SS moniker is good enough for GM's poster child then it's definately gonna go for the Camaro.

On a side note I also don't see 2 V6 models making it into the arena. How are you going to price a Hi-Po V6 compared to the base model V8 car? I don't see enough of a market gap to necessitate one.
Sorry to completely contradict you, but I think the top level Vette will not be called SS. I also think the top level Camaro will not be called SS.

RS/SS :cool:

What was the original topic here?.. after reading all the posts i actually forgot.. oh well. Many have mentioned a higher end V6, perhaps a supercharged V6 over 300hp in the camaro would be nice, add a different style spoiler and even a different nose or at least grill and call it the Iroc-Z, Isnt that what the third gens were? IIRC the Iroc-Z was just a step up from the base-line V6 (in most cases though i know there were some 5.7TPI in later years) packing a meager 305 and sporting a different grille that had a bowtie instead of "Camaro" with foglights and the nice lip spoiler on the rear. Then step up the appearance package again for the RS and as others have said make it available for all packages... would be nice.

Over on Mustang sites, you don't have this "Who's on type" issue. Cobra, Mach 1, Boss... you're all part of the family, and each version is appriciated.

Being that there hasn't been any Camaros at all the past 5 years, you'd expect that would be even more of the case here.
That is the reason for the debate! I't would be moot if there was an actual camaro to buy. Right now it is vaporware.

How about bringing back the wonderful Iroc Z name. :D Iroc can be the entry level V8 and Z28 can be top dog.

Only if they sponser the series as well, and return it to prominace.


As long as they make a 500hp+ car and use the "Z28" to designate ONE of the V8 choices, I could give a cr@p if the top one is called SS, Z28, ZL1, or whatever else.
Ditto that. I caqn ony afford to buy 1 so I hope ther is a clear-cut "Top Dog"

I caqn ony afford to buy 1 so I hope ther is a clear-cut "Top Dog"
Why? Why does one model have to be the clear cut top dog?

Let's say hypothetically that the "SS" has a 520 horse FI engine and the "Z28" has a 450 horse NA engine.

Assume that the SS is a more powerful, option heavy model with all the bells and whistles.

Assume that the Z28 is a more limited option, lighter car with the equipment to burn corners lap after lap.

Now lets say they have comparable acceleration numbers.

Confused as to which one is the top dog? You shouldn't be. Pick whichever one is right for you. They're both top dogs.

The designations would be, for the most part, historically faithful to the original with regard to intent. Each type of customer can get the car he/she wants. Everybody is happy. A buzz builds as both firebreathers begin to prove their worth on boulevards and tracks across the country. GM sells all the 5th gens they can produce.

My fingers are crossed.

Nothing divides a Camaro group like the Z28 vs. SS arguement. I'd hate to be the valet in 2010 who walks up and says "I brought up your SS sir" and it was a Z/28.... yikes he might not get a tip or worse a dirty look...

We all know the heritage of the Z/28 and it's racing roots 302ci stripes and the whole bit. We all know the SS heritage big block more options "a street car" some have said.. Guess the Z/28's with less hp and torque but better suspension, driving on the street were actually Penske's back-up cars on loan....
Let's not make this out to be more than it is. Some people just like the Z/28 (Z28 and don't say the slash makes a difference) and some like the SS. I don't have a preferance as like I said earlier I'll take the one I like the best at the time for the price.

Don't say one is a street car and one is not. They are both just Camaro's built for anyone with the money and interest to buy one. But they are both very street legal and drivable I assure you.

Also both types have lost their identity some time or another over the Camaro's 35 year prior life. So don't discredit the 4th Gen SS or Z28 just because they didn't fit the '67-69 MY status. Did the 70's and 80's Z28 somehow uphold the tradition? In fact since this topic splits hairs already besides the first 3 years when has the Z/28 (Z28) or SS actually been correct?

All that aside would I like to see the Z/28 get the slash and a different engine or somthing from the SS sure. Do I care which one is more expensive.. Well only if the one I want is...
Would GM be better suited to extract more interest in the car by having more distinct types sure. Does it add cost to the car probably. In the eyes of Wall St. does GM need more types of one car with more non-interchangeable parts... NO.

So flame on I'm not really tryin to argue with anyone other than that this debate is rather silly.

I see that exact sentiment as the very reason Z28 should be 'affordable performance', not 'uber Camaro' with a huge price tag that will be out of reach to most of the buyers.

IMO just completely eliminate SS from the lineup. Why doesn't that possibility ever get brought up?

I'd rather see Camaro, Camaro Z28 and Camaro ZL1.

ZL1 is a designation that is known to be rare. Z28's should not be rare on the road.

The Mustang shares no designation with any other Ford car (that I can think of), neither should the Camaro with it's Chevy siblings.

Is there any other Ford product that they put 'GT' on regularly?

Let's just lose SS altogether on the Camaro.

Camaro - Mustang
Camaro Z28 - Mustang GT
Camaro ZL1 - Mustang GT500

It doesn't make sense to drop the "SS" from the Camaro line up. Chevy is right in the middle of honing it's SS marketing strategy. The Camaro SS will compete directly with the Mustang GT - and unless Ford quickens it's powertrain step - will probably bludgeon Mustang, power wise.

I think we may need to stop "target fixating" on the GT500. It simply won't exist by the time Camaro comes out. With that said, the Z/28 will probably be packing a supercharger. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. As I sit on my keyboard in 2007, I think I'd rather see a hotter, hotrodded version of a N/A LSx for a future Z/28 "Special Performance Package".

GM decides what a Z28 is. It is not up to us to define as it is GM's car and GM's call.

Let not let this degrade into a no one wins argument like the Pontiac people did on "what a GTO looks like". You could ask 5 to say what a GTO looks like and get 5 answers.

I see the same here as over the years a Z28 has become different things to different people just depending on the year and model you either own or identify with.

The bottom line is like it or not Whe... I mean if GM makes the Z28 the top car that is what we get. SS or Z28 will work no matter the call as long as the car is a great looking killer perfoming car.

They could call it a ES and it still would be a great car. [Note there is one ES Camaro out there already just ask Scott S]

So lets not get to bent on what the name is as it will all work out in the end and don't make this into another ugly GTO argument as we don't need another one of those.

GM decides what a Z28 is. It is not up to us to define as it is GM's car and GM's call.

Let not let this degrade into a no one wins argument like the Pontiac people did on "what a GTO looks like". You could ask 5 to say what a GTO looks like and get 5 answers.

I see the same here as over the years a Z28 has become different things to different people just depending on the year and model you either own or identify with.

The bottom line is like it or not Whe... I mean if GM makes the Z28 the top car that is what we get. SS or Z28 will work no matter the call as long as the car is a great looking killer perfoming car.

They could call it a ES and it still would be a great car. [Note there is one ES Camaro out there already just ask Scott S]

So lets not get to bent on what the name is as it will all work out in the end and don't make this into another ugly GTO argument as we don't need another one of those.

VERY WELL SAID!

Instead of rehashing whatever you all want it to be called, just read the dozens of other debates about it. It ha all been covered a lot of times in the past, but the problem is nothing will change what is already set in place. So arguing about what YOU think it should be is like pissing in the wind.

I am somewhat disheartened by those who are saying "If the SS/Z28/Whatever isn't the "top dog" (another term that is getting stale as bread from WWII) I won't buy one."

Are you freaking kidding me? I won't care if they call it a "Camaro STFU". It will be what it will be. I am happy to be able to have another Camaro and as a Camaro owner, I will MAKE it what I want it to be, just like I always have and like many other Camaro owners will.

So while people are driving something other than a new Camaro, complaining about how they didn't make it their way, I will be driving my Camaro STFU, enjoying the hell out of it and making it mine. :D

If people keep dividing this between SS and Z28 or whatever, half of everyone here will be disappointed. The same goes for the t-tops/b-pillar argument. It is all futile right now and no one needs division over people wanting it to be their way instead of what is best for the product itself. You want this car to last for 2 years and never come back again? Keep promising that you won't buy it due to one reason or another and resolve to keep that promise. Instead, start thinking about how great it will be, despite it not being able to be the perfect vehicle for every buyer of it.

Keep in mind...

The Camaro team is watching us all very, very closely but most things can't be done more than one way. Expect nothing, this car will change everything. This is a NEW generation.

Well said JasonD! While I do have some very "set" ideas about what a Z/28 should be, like you I don't really care what model is "top dog", I will be happy have a new Camaro with the features I want regardless of what it's named. I'm not so interested in having the "top dog" as I am in the total package meeting my wants/needs whether it is offered in an existing package under whatever name or if I have to order/put together a package myself. I'm just excited about being able to purchase what will be the third Camaro I've owned.
Clyde

VERY WELL SAID!

Instead of rehashing whatever you all want it to be called, just read the dozens of other debates about it. It ha all been covered a lot of times in the past, but the problem is nothing will change what is already set in place. So arguing about what YOU think it should be is like pissing in the wind.

I am somewhat disheartened by those who are saying "If the SS/Z28/Whatever isn't the "top dog" (another term that is getting stale as bread from WWII) I won't buy one.

Are you freaking kidding me? I won't care if they call it a "Camaro STFU". It will be what it will be. I am happy to be able to have another Camaro and as a Camaro owner, I will MAKE it what I want it to be, just like I always have and like many other Camaro owners will.

So while people are driving something other than a new Camaro, complaining about how they didn't make it their way, I will be driving my Camaro STFU, enjoying the hell out of it and making it mine. :D

If people keep dividing this between SS and Z28 or whatever, half of everyone here will be disappointed. The same goes for the t-tops/b-pillar argument. It is all futile right now and no one needs division over people wanting it to be their way instead of what is best for the product itself. You want this car to last for 2 years and never come back again? Keep promising that you won't buy it due to one reason or another and resolve to keep that promise. Instead, start thinking about how great it will be, despite it not being able to be the perfect vehicle for every buyer of it.

Keep in mind...

The Camaro team is watching us all very, very closely but most things can't be done more than one way. Expect nothing, this car will change everything. This is a NEW generation.

I might add what I said to those complaining about the name G8 on the new Pontiac. If you don't like the name pull it off and stick on a Grand Prix Emblem. God knows how many 1969 Z28's I have seen with Automatics and 307's under the hood over the years.

I agree We are going to see changes and will have to accept them as as this is not 1969 anymore For this car to live it has to adapt and live up to the expectations of not only the Camaro fan but new buyers driving 4N makes.

Not enough Camaro fans bought the last Gen so lets use a little reason and understanding with Chevy and support them as they try to sell this car not only to the enthusiast but to the unwashed masses behind the wheel of a Camry or BMW.

Besides everyone all the way to Hyundia is now coming out with a new RWD coupe. This forces Chevys hand to the fact they can't depend just on people reliving their muscle car past.

It is evolve or die in todays market.

I would totally buy a "Camaro STFU" edition.

I would like to see a Camaro FU2 model.

There would only be one emblem on the tail panel.

I would totally buy a "Camaro STFU" edition.

:lol:
I KNOW!

That just cracked me up Jason



But anyways back to......
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/images/emoticons/026.gif

I won't lie, when I was typing it up I easily pictured me making some STFU emblems...

Should I? :lol:

It doesn't make sense to drop the "SS" from the Camaro line up. Chevy is right in the middle of honing it's SS marketing strategy. The Camaro SS will compete directly with the Mustang GT - and unless Ford quickens it's powertrain step - will probably bludgeon Mustang, power wise.

I think we may need to stop "target fixating" on the GT500. It simply won't exist by the time Camaro comes out. With that said, the Z/28 will probably be packing a supercharger. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. As I sit on my keyboard in 2007, I think I'd rather see a hotter, hotrodded version of a N/A LSx for a future Z/28 "Special Performance Package".

Actually I'm only against 'Z28' being a model that is not 'affordable performance'. If the GT500 isn't to be considered as part of the model lineup equation, then there are only 2 models of Camaro needed. The Mustang has 2 AFFORDABLE models, then multiple models that are beefed up and decidedly NOT affordable to the masses.

Ok, lemme say this another way.

Whatever they decide, be it (V6, SS, Z28 or V6, Z28, SS) the top model should NOT be at GT500 prices. Both SS AND Z28 should be within reach of the average Joe. 'Z28' shouldn't be a name for a LIMITED model. It should be a car for the masses.

So, if they wish to make a limited Camaro with GT500 power levels (or higher) it should be ZL1 not Z28. That is all I'm saying.

I won't lie, when I was typing it up I easily pictured me making some STFU emblems...

Should I? :lol:

YES!!!! That'd be awesome!!

Actually I'm only against 'Z28' being a model that is not 'affordable performance'. If the GT500 isn't to be considered as part of the model lineup equation, then there are only 2 models of Camaro needed. The Mustang has 2 AFFORDABLE models, then multiple models that are beefed up and decidedly NOT affordable to the masses.

Ok, lemme say this another way.

Whatever they decide, be it (V6, SS, Z28 or V6, Z28, SS) the top model should NOT be at GT500 prices. Both SS AND Z28 should be within reach of the average Joe. 'Z28' shouldn't be a name for a LIMITED model. It should be a car for the masses.

So, if they wish to make a limited Camaro with GT500 power levels (or higher) it should be ZL1 not Z28. That is all I'm saying.

The GT500 is a image car and it makes money at that crazy price.

Now if your going to name a image car you want it to have a name that average joe on the street would understand or know what it means.
ZL1 out side enthusiast really means nothing and Z28 had a lot of equity.

The Z28 when it arrives will be a killer car when it arrives a year or so after intro. This is the car that people will have posters of the wall. I think once it arrives few will complain of the name order.

I agree with JasonD. Camaro is what YOU make it. Any true car person has respect for anothers pride and joy. Critical comments on one's ride hurt. You feel good when someone gives a favorable comment on your ride, even if it is stock. Mosttimes you don't get noticed in the crowd. You just have to enjoy what you have. I would not trade mine for new. Got to much blood, sweat, and money in it. (97SS 383 D1) B.

Actually I'm only against 'Z28' being a model that is not 'affordable performance'.

'Z28' shouldn't be a name for a LIMITED model. It should be a car for the masses.


I think "affordable performance" means different thinks for different folks. Alot of people who own a Z06 feel that their car represents that.

Although, I don't necessarily see a future Z/28 as a "limited" model, (in that they will probably build as many as the market demands), the SS will be the higher volume car for the "masses".

VERY WELL SAID!

Instead of rehashing whatever you all want it to be called, just read the dozens of other debates about it. It ha all been covered a lot of times in the past, but the problem is nothing will change what is already set in place. So arguing about what YOU think it should be is like pissing in the wind.

I am somewhat disheartened by those who are saying "If the SS/Z28/Whatever isn't the "top dog" (another term that is getting stale as bread from WWII) I won't buy one."

Are you freaking kidding me? I won't care if they call it a "Camaro STFU". It will be what it will be. I am happy to be able to have another Camaro and as a Camaro owner, I will MAKE it what I want it to be, just like I always have and like many other Camaro owners will.

So while people are driving something other than a new Camaro, complaining about how they didn't make it their way, I will be driving my Camaro STFU, enjoying the hell out of it and making it mine. :D

If people keep dividing this between SS and Z28 or whatever, half of everyone here will be disappointed. The same goes for the t-tops/b-pillar argument. It is all futile right now and no one needs division over people wanting it to be their way instead of what is best for the product itself. You want this car to last for 2 years and never come back again? Keep promising that you won't buy it due to one reason or another and resolve to keep that promise. Instead, start thinking about how great it will be, despite it not being able to be the perfect vehicle for every buyer of it.

Keep in mind...

The Camaro team is watching us all very, very closely but most things can't be done more than one way. Expect nothing, this car will change everything. This is a NEW generation.

God Bless ya, Jason -- very well put.

For some of you -- do you REALLY believe we're gonna do stuff just to upset you? I'm not saying that we're being accused of that -- but when I read some of these posts, I just scratch my head .....

Know that we DO care what you think...but at some point, hard decisions have to be made.......and we hope you'll understand that -- and still remain a Camaro enthusiast.

...... 'Z28' shouldn't be a name for a LIMITED model........


Why not, it's how it came to be in the first place?!?! :confused:

I think that most of us are just hoping that Chevy will build a model that has the focus of a Z06.....which is also what the Z/28 started as....:bow:

How about v6, Z28, SS, and top dog being Z/28 SS :cool:

Hmmm .... something like "SS Z/28" might not be completely out of the question. It would make both the Chevy marketeers and the Camaro guys happy.

It would make both the Chevy marketeers and the Camaro guys happy
Not if it was a heavy, forced induction car with a laundry list of superfluous mandatory options.

The Z28 "Camaro guys" would like a more focused car suitable for track duty. As has been mentioned, a Camaro "ZO6". Please note that this car DOES NOT need to have the most power in the lineup. The SS could have all that glory to itself.

God Bless ya, Jason -- very well put.

For some of you -- do you REALLY believe we're gonna do stuff just to upset you? I'm not saying that we're being accused of that -- but when I read some of these posts, I just scratch my head .....

Know that we DO care what you think...but at some point, hard decisions have to be made.......and we hope you'll understand that -- and still remain a Camaro enthusiast.


Scott it is safe to say that no matter what choices GM makes someone will be upset in some way. The best you can do is please the majority and hope the few that disagree will warm to the changes.

We see this at evey new Vette intro where half like the new car and half are not reall excited but in a short period of time most will accept the new car and understand how good the new cars really are.

Anyone remember the out cry of the new C6 Vettes with no pop up head lamps? Now few have a problem with them expecially on the Z06.

People are creatures of habit and resist change many times when it is going to benefit them. Once they see and live with the change they find how much better it is once they have that first drive.

In the Camaro I see so many who have embraced this car as a whole already vs many other cars that are polarizing at best. If all some can complain about is a name plate or other minor design trait this car should be a off the charts winner.

GM is doing what ever it takes to make this car a winner. There is never going to be a car where you would not like to see something the way you think it should be. If that was the case there would be no aftermarket to help us make our cars our very own. I am also sure if you talked to each person on the Camaro team there is somthing each would like to do different but they have to settle on what is best for the car as a whole.

So lets not get hung up on the little things and just sit back and enjoy the rebirth of a great car regardless of the name. Your about to see automotive history being made.

God Bless ya, Jason -- very well put.

For some of you -- do you REALLY believe we're gonna do stuff just to upset you? I'm not saying that we're being accused of that -- but when I read some of these posts, I just scratch my head .....

Know that we DO care what you think...but at some point, hard decisions have to be made.......and we hope you'll understand that -- and still remain a Camaro enthusiast.

I am impatiently awaiting the arrival of my 2009 Camaro ss/z28/rs/stfu... I remember just sitting in the seat of my father's corvette and, without fail, smiling as the c5 rumbled to life. Thank goodness GM will provide me the option to buy an American front-engine, rwd!!! I have not yet gotten rid of my '93 (non-american hatchback - i know, i know - But I look forward to buying the Camaro instead of a foreign Z, G35 coupe, or ubiquitous mustang) w/135k miles b/c I will be holding out for this car (Any way we can pull production up like the Silverado last year?) An issue I hope one of the well-sourced posters on this site can address is - the apparent lack of t-tops in the coming model - If the issue is structural rigidity, how is this addressed in the convertible... is the reason that the additional cost deemed to be too great that people would not pay the additional cost? - I would be. I don't want the weather or wind issues of a convertible top for Oct-May in the Northeast.

I am impatiently awaiting the arrival of my 2009 Camaro ss/z28/rs/stfu... I remember just sitting in the seat of my father's corvette and, without fail, smiling as the c5 rumbled to life. Thank goodness GM will provide me the option to buy an American front-engine, rwd!!! I have not yet gotten rid of my '93 w/135k miles b/c I will be holding out for this car (Any way we can pull production up like the Silverado last year?)
An issue I hope one of the well-sourced posters on this site can address is - the apparent lack of t-tops in the coming model - If the issue is structural rigidity, how is this addressed in the convertible... is the reason that the additional cost deemed to be too great that people would not pay the additional cost? - I would be. I don't want the weather or wind issues of a convertible top for Oct-May in the Northeast.

At this point the car is on time and we are luck for that. Little to no chance for it to move up. Now on the other hand we should be seeing what the production car will be like in the next 6 months and a media blitz next summer when the Challanger hits as Chevy will not let the Camaro be forgotten.

As for the T top I can only speculate. The real reason for the T top in the first place is the lack of a convet in the 70's. A convertible will take care of most owners who want the open air.

As for noise and weather the new cars have head liners and insulated. These are not like most convertibles of the past. Only break in is still a problem.

As for T Top they are just out of style in the industry and few if any cars use them today. Even the Vette is now a true targa. What goes around comes around and the T Top or even a true targa may come back to the Camaro someday but I just don't see it happing soon.

When we lost the Convertibles in the 70's many were not happy with the T Tops that replaced them just as you are with the loss of the T Top. Well they got the Convertible back after we were told it would never come back so you may get your T Top wish too someday too. Never say never just don't say right now.

FWIW, we've already heard some time ago that the "top dog" Camaro was going to be at least 12 to 18 months behind the initial release. So those of you expecting to be able to buy a 2009 "top dog"... it ain't happening.

Personally I will wait and at this point could care less what it's called, provided it is the Camaro's version of the Corvette's Z06.

However keep in mind what Scott once said, "any Chevy can be a SS, but only a Camaro can be a Z28".

Something to think about. :D

Scott was the one who originated that quote?!? Hmmmm....:think:

Scott was the one who originated that quote?!? Hmmmm....:think:I'm not sure he "originated" it, however he definitely "once said" it. ;)

Just to make it clear, whatever they call the 'base V8' I'll be purchasing one regardless. :D A trim ID would never stop me from getting a Camaro.

I just have a preference for the names 'RS' and 'Z28'.

FWIW, we've already heard some time ago that the "top dog" Camaro was going to be at least 12 to 18 months behind the initial release. So those of you expecting to be able to buy a 2009 "top dog"... it ain't happening.

Personally I will wait and at this point could care less what it's called, provided it is the Camaro's version of the Corvette's Z06.

However keep in mind what Scott once said, "any Chevy can be a SS, but only a Camaro can be a Z28".

Something to think about. :D

I do not claim much but I did quote that one a while back during one of the name arguments threads [one of many]. I think others have duplicated this same comment too as it is a natural concept.

Scott was the one who originated that quote?!? Hmmmm....:think:

I'm not sure, but I think I remember WERM saying it first.

Just to make it clear, whatever they call the 'base V8' I'll be purchasing one regardless. :D A trim ID would never stop me from getting a Camaro.

I just have a preference for the names 'RS' and 'Z28'.

Depending on how many V8s we get and what naming conventions are finally used, the base V8 may not be either a Z/28 or a SS. While I don't expect to see the huge number of engines available like the first gen. had, I would not be suprised to see 3 V8s, base V8, performance V8, high performance V8.
Clyde

I would not be suprised to see 3 V8s, base V8, performance V8, high performance V8.
Clyde

i don't agree with this..from everything i've heard i've come to the theory that there will be 2 v6s and 2 v8s.. base v6 (240), performance v6(300), base v8(430), and performance v8(~550)

i don't agree with this..from everything i've heard i've come to the theory that there will be 2 v6s and 2 v8s.. base v6 (240), performance v6(300), base v8(430), and performance v8(~550)

If your a betting man the odds are in your corner.

GM's concern with the CAFE increase will put even more attention to the V6. I would not be suprised if they promote the V6 and really play up it's performance. The 3.6 DI is the new SBC in the world of 3-4 dollar gas.

Don't be suprised if we see a new performanc model with a powerful V6. This car would benifit from better balanance, milage, insurance cost, purchase cost, etc. As we alrady know you can have plenty of fun with 300 HP. As we already know the Kappas are a blast with 260 HP and the new 3.6 DI CTS is getting great marks for power.

Also this is a model not featured yet by thge Mustang or planned by the Challanger.

There will always be a place for the V8 but it will be found more as a play car or weekend car v6 daily driver with the average driver. Also as long as the V8 is in the pickup truck the Camaro will have one as an option.

If Z/28 is the top dawg and doesn't come out the first year, it will cause a lot of performance oriented drivers to wait for it (or whine about how long it's taking to get the car out). Because everyone will know that a Z/28 Camaro is inevitable, they'll be left at launch with a sense of anticipation instead of gratification. Some (I'm sure) will even be disappointed. Those same people will then paint that Z/28 (when it comes out) with the broad brush that GM is just reacting to the competition and is taking too long to develop cars. While that mindset would be incorrect, a Z/28 missing from the initial release lineup would still be a distraction from what should be a stellar launch.

What I hope GM does is launch with a Z/28 as the top dawg - with a serious upgrade after 2 years. That way customers, and the competition will be guessing as to what GM has planned after introduction, and no one will be waiting for an "eventual" Z/28. Besides, upgrades are going to be a part of the product cycle regardless, which means whenever a Z/28 gets launched it will be upgraded eventually anyway.

For me, I'll take the top v8 at launch - I just don't think I can wait. The coolest thing is, for the first time (for me anyway) there will be an option to trade-up to a newer Camaro a few years after launch.......ahhhhh......it's so nice to have the car coming back! :D

I don't think it will be much of a problem as in 1966 there was no Z28 at into. There was not Shelby at the new Mustang intro etc.

The buzz of a new Camaro and 430 Hp SS as wll as a V6 nearing the Mustang V8 power will create a lot fo buzz.

I think many that want a Z will wait the year to year and half to get the much higher perfoming car.

It is all marketing and waiting for the part needed to be available.

I don't think it will be much of a problem as in 1966 there was no Z28 at into. There was not Shelby at the new Mustang intro etc.

The buzz of a new Camaro and 430 Hp SS as wll as a V6 nearing the Mustang V8 power will create a lot fo buzz.

I think many that want a Z will wait the year to year and half to get the much higher perfoming car.

It is all marketing and waiting for the part needed to be available.

On the other hand, when the Camaro was first released in '66/'67 no one even knew that there was such a thing as a Z/28 coming later in the year. Furthermore, there certainly had not been buyers waiting for three years to get a Z/28. In any event, if that's what someone wants I guess they'll just have to be patient and wait, it gets here when it gets here.
Clyde

On the other hand, when the Camaro was first released in '66/'67 no one even knew that there was such a thing as a Z/28 coming later in the year. Furthermore, there certainly had not been buyers waiting for three years to get a Z/28. In any event, if that's what someone wants I guess they'll just have to be patient and wait, it gets here when it gets here.
Clyde


If you want to look at it this way what other things are to come that we have not seen or even have an idea may come??? There is always a better model or better options around the corner.

Do you get the SS in 09 with 430 or do you wait till 11 and get the 455 HP?

For some of you -- do you REALLY believe we're gonna do stuff just to upset you?


Well you did put that electronic skip shift BS in our 6 gear cars......;)

Well you did put that electronic skip shift BS in our 6 gear cars......;)

Yeah, but that was required by the EPA. It was either that or cut the horsepower. A 16 cent resistor can fix the problem one way or a $3,000 supercharger can fix it another way, which would you like to pay?

;)

Well you did put that electronic skip shift BS in our 6 gear cars......;)

And don't forget the hump in the floor. But maybe that was a conversation piece for your passenger. ;)


FWIW, my Blazer has one too :D

FWIW, we've already heard some time ago that the "top dog" Camaro was going to be at least 12 to 18 months behind the initial release. So those of you expecting to be able to buy a 2009 "top dog"... it ain't happening.

Personally I will wait and at this point could care less what it's called, provided it is the Camaro's version of the Corvette's Z06.

However keep in mind what Scott once said, "any Chevy can be a SS, but only a Camaro can be a Z28".

Something to think about. :D


Still willing to place a beer bet that the top dawg will be the SS. :)

On the other hand, when the Camaro was first released in '66/'67 no one even knew that there was such a thing as a Z/28 coming later in the year. Furthermore, there certainly had not been buyers waiting for three years to get a Z/28. In any event, if that's what someone wants I guess they'll just have to be patient and wait, it gets here when it gets here.
Clyde
Come on Clyde... that wait was less than three months. :D

Still willing to place a beer bet that the top dawg will be the SS. :)

I'm in, how much and what type of beer are we talking about.
...are you 21? ;)

Come on Clyde... that wait was less than three months. :D

There was no wait because nobody really knew it was coming! If you don't know it's coming there is no wait, unlike the suppositions and guessing that is going on this time around. And we can whine, complain, wish, and hope all we want, but it will be here when it gets here.:D
Clyde

Still willing to place a beer bet that the top dawg will be the SS. :)

I'll take you up on that. I'll take Guinness, thanks.

There was no wait because nobody really knew it was coming! If you don't know it's coming there is no wait, unlike the suppositions and guessing that is going on this time around. And we can whine, complain, wish, and hope all we want, but it will be here when it gets here.:D
ClydeI'm sure certain insiders knew, but I agree with you, especially the part about it "being here when it gets here". Personally for me the longer the wait the better. I have one kid still in college and I just dumped a ton of money into a new driveway. (Got to have room to park all my toys. ;) ) So if its 2011, all the better for me. :D

Names aside, I would want the Camaro that makes the most torque with a manual trans.:cool:

Hmmm .... something like "SS Z/28" might not be completely out of the question. It would make both the Chevy marketeers and the Camaro guys happy.

NEVER!

There has never been an SS/Z28 and there shouldn't be! (sorry, I feel pretty strongly about this....)

At one point early in the 1996 SS program, SLP made up some shirts and hats that said "Z28/SS" -- and we asked them to stop. (and yes, I still have a couple of things that have that moniker on it......)

Two different animals -- one great car line.

(and before anyone else chimes in -- yes, SSs in the 4th gen started out as Z28s...but the SS overrode the Z28 moniker.......)

Scott it is safe to say that no matter what choices GM makes someone will be upset in some way. The best you can do is please the majority and hope the few that disagree will warm to the changes.

We see this at evey new Vette intro where half like the new car and half are not reall excited but in a short period of time most will accept the new car and understand how good the new cars really are.

Anyone remember the out cry of the new C6 Vettes with no pop up head lamps? Now few have a problem with them expecially on the Z06.

People are creatures of habit and resist change many times when it is going to benefit them. Once they see and live with the change they find how much better it is once they have that first drive.

In the Camaro I see so many who have embraced this car as a whole already vs many other cars that are polarizing at best. If all some can complain about is a name plate or other minor design trait this car should be a off the charts winner.

GM is doing what ever it takes to make this car a winner. There is never going to be a car where you would not like to see something the way you think it should be. If that was the case there would be no aftermarket to help us make our cars our very own. I am also sure if you talked to each person on the Camaro team there is somthing each would like to do different but they have to settle on what is best for the car as a whole.

So lets not get hung up on the little things and just sit back and enjoy the rebirth of a great car regardless of the name. Your about to see automotive history being made.

Very well put!

We know we'll never make everyone happy -- but I think that the new Camaro will make the majority VERY happy......

Know that we DO care what you think...but at some point, hard decisions have to be made.......and we hope you'll understand that -- and still remain a Camaro enthusiast.


I'd like to play Devil's advocate here for a second.......

Recently, with GM pretty much revamping their entire lineup in every division over the last 5 years, Mr. Lutz has been making promises that cary the same tone - to never cut corners again. Meaning, not letting the bean counters in accounting interfere with a good product design. While the onslaught of new GM product is far superior to anything company has ever offered in it's history, it still appears the bean counters meddle where they ought not to.....

From major issues like the GMT-900 series trucks should have come to market with standard equipment including the 6 speed transmission on EVERY trim and engine combination, from day one the very first one rolled off the line. To minor details such as vehicles like the Cobalt and G5 being co-produced (aka "badge engineering"), and still using a stick mast antenna on many cars when most other manufacturers have switched to an integrated radio antenna in the rear window accross all vehicles in their lineup.

My point is, there are probably still some people who aren't even Camaro enthusiasts who feel a bit jaded, don't trust GM 100%, and rightly so. GM cannot cut corners with this car, plain and simple. Fbod, I don't know how long you've worked for GM, but I'm sure you've seen plenty of great products and great product ideas come from your engineers only to be altered into something much less desireable after all the dollars were calculated.

If other companies can deliver exactly what they promise, or in fact under promise and over deliver, it is in GM's best interest to do so with the Camaro. This car I believe, is going to be the single most important car to the company, even more important than the new Malibu. Not because of the fear alienating Camaro enthusiasts if the car isn't done to "their standards", but if the car isn't done to the standards of the world's best. It's an all new car from a completely new platform. One chance for GM to get the car right from start to finnish.

There is no second chance after it's release.

(and before anyone else chimes in -- yes, SSs in the 4th gen started out as Z28s...but the SS overrode the Z28 moniker.......)

Yes, and there lies the mistake that led to Camaro fans all over to dispute the lack of admiration for the cars' true top model. ;) Let's never repeat that. :)

I'd like to play Devil's advocate here for a second.......

Recently, with GM pretty much revamping their entire lineup in every division over the last 5 years, Mr. Lutz has been making promises that cary the same tone - to never cut corners again. Meaning, not letting the bean counters in accounting interfere with a good product design. While the onslaught of new GM product is far superior to anything company has ever offered in it's history, it still appears the bean counters meddle where they ought not to.....

From major issues like the GMT-900 series trucks should have come to market with standard equipment including the 6 speed transmission on EVERY trim and engine combination, from day one the very first one rolled off the line. To minor details such as vehicles like the Cobalt and G5 being co-produced (aka "badge engineering"), and still using a stick mast antenna on many cars when most other manufacturers have switched to an integrated radio antenna in the rear window accross all vehicles in their lineup.

My point is, there are probably still some people who aren't even Camaro enthusiasts who feel a bit jaded, don't trust GM 100%, and rightly so. GM cannot cut corners with this car, plain and simple. Fbod, I don't know how long you've worked for GM, but I'm sure you've seen plenty of great products and great product ideas come from your engineers only to be altered into something much less desireable after all the dollars were calculated.

If other companies can deliver exactly what they promise, or in fact under promise and over deliver, it is in GM's best interest to do so with the Camaro. This car I believe, is going to be the single most important car to the company, even more important than the new Malibu. Not because of the fear alienating Camaro enthusiasts if the car isn't done to "their standards", but if the car isn't done to the standards of the world's best. It's an all new car from a completely new platform. One chance for GM to get the car right from start to finnish.

There is no second chance after it's release.

You make some good points -- but......

(and I can't believe I'm actually typing the next couple of words.....)

.....there is a purpose for some of the bean counters........

(.....I never thought I'd actually type that!.........)

Mr. Lutz is right -- to an extent -- but any business that doesn't have business discipline today will not be in business very long.....

The 900 series trucks......simply not enough capacity to put the 6-speed autos in every truck........so the choices are:

>delay the trucks....

>put them in some of the trucks.

If you voted for the 1st one, you just got fired.......(no excuses!)

As to the G5 -- some thoughts:

>how would you keep the Pontiac francise alive with limited funds? (let's not forget the state that the domestic manufacturers find themselves in....)

>there are people on this and many other sites saying that we need to bring the Firebird back as well -- that would be pretty much the same as the Cobalt/G5..........so -- are you saying that we should not bring back the Firebird?

No question that we can't cut corners -- as an overall statement. BUT....we must be disciplined in some of the decisions made.

I've been with GM for 30 years-- and we've made some real doozies over the years-- BUT......I learned that in 95% of those cases, there were many good reasons why something happened....it is NEVER -- let me repeat that -- NEVER a simple reason -- or a simple solution.

Anyone that tells you in less than 6 hours as to why the domestic manufacturers got into the trouble they're in is leaving a whole lot out!

Yes, and there lies the mistake that led to Camaro fans all over to dispute the lack of admiration for the cars' true top model. ;) Let's never repeat that. :)

uhm....no, that's one of the reasons a smaller percentage ....than you'd probably believe -- were upset.......

.........there are a lot of enthusiasts out there that really do not care which moniker we use....(and I say this after travelling all over the United States and parts of Canada....) ......and then there are those of you who do....and half of those who care deeply think it should be SS - and the other half think it should be Z28.

Here's the truth: We will make a decision. You can like that decision or not. You can choose to purchase the car or you can choose not to. We hope you will.

I don't mean to be harsh.....but once again, threads like this one tend to deteriorate to a Z28 versus SS fight -- and it should not be a fight.

Remember: the name "Camaro" means 'friend, pal, or comrade'....

uhm....no, that's one of the reasons a smaller percentage ....than you'd probably believe -- were upset.......

.........there are a lot of enthusiasts out there that really do not care which moniker we use....(and I say this after travelling all over the United States and parts of Canada....) ......and then there are those of you who do....and half of those who care deeply think it should be SS - and the other half think it should be Z28.

Here's the truth: We will make a decision. You can like that decision or not. You can choose to purchase the car or you can choose not to. We hope you will.

I don't mean to be harsh.....but once again, threads like this one tend to deteriorate to a Z28 versus SS fight -- and it should not be a fight.

Remember: the name "Camaro" means 'friend, pal, or comrade'....

I don't know, I saw arguements all over on various boards there "RP." (taking it way back!) We all know that years ago it was intense on this one in particular, and constantly. That small percentage of owners are the actual enthusiasts that care and further the cars, not the people that buy one just because it looked nice or was the cool thing at the time. The ones that take the time and deal with the frustration of arguing for the good of the cars' history on boards like this.

The only thing that slowed it down was you repeating the statement, IIRC, that "Any Chevy can be an SS, but only a Camaro can be a Z28," and giving hints towards that direction. Otherwise, we'd still be arguing everyday for the Z28's rightful place!

.........there are a lot of enthusiasts out there that really do not care which moniker we use....(and I say this after travelling all over the United States and parts of Canada....) ......and then there are those of you who do....and half of those who care deeply think it should be SS - and the other half think it should be Z28.

Here's the truth: We will make a decision. You can like that decision or not. You can choose to purchase the car or you can choose not to. We hope you will.
Personally I'd rather have a "Z28". However, provided that it is similar to what the Z06 is for the Corvette... I could care less what you call it, and I will buy it either way.

If it end's up being a "stripe and badge" package only (as the 4th gen SS's were), then I will have a problem with it.

Personally I don't care what badge they put on it. I will be removing all the badges and emblems on mine. My car will be mine, not a SS or a Z28. I don't think anyone will doudt that it is a Camaro. I love nothing more than to blow the doors off some guy (or gal) who thinks the "moniker" on their car makes them fast. You never know what go fast goodies they have under the hood. There is plenty of base Vettes out there that will spank the Z06. So I say pay for the name, I'll buy more power.

It doesn't matter. Whether they see an SS badge, or a Z/28 badge, they're going to know what's up. :)

I don't know, I saw arguements all over on various boards there "RP." (taking it way back!) We all know that years ago it was intense on this one in particular, and constantly. That small percentage of owners are the actual enthusiasts that care and further the cars, not the people that buy one just because it looked nice or was the cool thing at the time. The ones that take the time and deal with the frustration of arguing for the good of the cars' history on boards like this.

The only thing that slowed it down was you repeating the statement, IIRC, that "Any Chevy can be an SS, but only a Camaro can be a Z28," and giving hints towards that direction. Otherwise, we'd still be arguing everyday for the Z28's rightful place!


well -- you may have seen it on this and one or two other boards, ....but rest assured that there are many more enthusiasts out there.......they either don't go to this board -- or other boards -- or they lurk .....or they shake their heads in disbelief when arguments start up. (yup....I know this cuz I talk to them!)

(and -- don'tcha just love it when I keep repeating that statement???)

If it end's up being a "stripe and badge" package only (as the 4th gen SS's were), then I will have a problem with it.

rest assured that the 4th gen SS was not a stripe and badge package only.

If you don't believe me -- bring me a bone stock Z and a bone stock SS to Spring Mountain -- and I'll prove it to you.

:D

well -- you may have seen it on this and one or two other boards, ....but rest assured that there are many more enthusiasts out there.......they either don't go to this board -- or other boards -- or they lurk .....or they shake their heads in disbelief when arguments start up. (yup....I know this cuz I talk to them!)

(and -- don'tcha just love it when I keep repeating that statement???)

Yes, yes I do. :D ;) I just wonder if you guys are thinking Z28 or Z/28 for the emblem!

rest assured that the 4th gen SS was not a stripe and badge package only.

If you don't believe me -- bring me a bone stock Z and a bone stock SS to Spring Mountain -- and I'll prove it to you.

:D

yeah!!!







the wheels were different too!!

:D

Yes, yes I do. :D ;) I just wonder if you guys are thinking Z28 or Z/28 for the emblem!

Maybe the Z28 : Z/28 logo will get reimaging as well.... Obviously wouldn't be the first time...

Here's the truth: We will make a decision. You can like that decision or not. You can choose to purchase the car or you can choose not to. We hope you will.


Should we take this to mean a decision HASN'T YET BEEN MADE? ;)

Just seems odd being only a year away from production.

Camaro team isn't hiring now is it Scott? Definitely a dream job. Unfortunately, considering my education, I'd probably be more suited to the role of bean counter, but I think I'd be the best kind. I love cars!

Peace

Should we take this to mean a decision HASN'T YET BEEN MADE? ;)

Just seems odd being only a year away from production.

Camaro team isn't hiring now is it Scott? Definitely a dream job. Unfortunately, considering my education, I'd probably be more suited to the role of bean counter, but I think I'd be the best kind. I love cars!

Peace

It is a little late to change names so I would have to say they have made their choice.

I think Scott was just making a point that we have to accept GM's choice as the name was chosen for reasons that they feel were best for the car.

In other words If you like it good if not deal with it as GM did what they feel was best.

I want whichever one I can get the STFU edition on

(and -- don'tcha just love it when I keep repeating that statement???)

Sounds like a pretty definitive answer to this thread to me...

So which was the top dog in 1969?

The SS 396 with 375 HP

or

The 302 Z28 with 290 HP

???

So which was the top dog in 1969?

The SS 396 with 375 HP

or

The 302 Z28 with 290 HP

???


The 450 HP ZL1!!! :bow:

So which was the top dog in 1969?

The SS 396 with 375 HP

or

The 302 Z28 with 290 HP

???

The Z/28 would've put a serious hurting on an SS396 on a road course. Dragstrip is a slightly different story, but the Z/28 would've dominated on a road course.

The Z/28 would've put a serious hurting on an SS396 on a road course. Dragstrip is a slightly different story, but the Z/28 would've dominated on a road course.

http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html

So much for that theory. ;)

Why is 69 the only year that is relevant?

There wasn't even an SS for 25 years of the car's history.

I think we're all looking at this all wrong anyway.

Everybody debates the two name, which is better, which was better, etc. etc.

The issue is not whether SS or Z28 should be the top car. There will be a high power, very well optioned mass production "top model", and then there will be a more limited production, even higher HP, Z06 type car that will be "THE top dog". The issue is which name better fits each car.

During the 1st gen, which car was the mass production street bruiser and which was the limited production, street legal racer? Answers are obvious to me.

Which car had a reputation for competition, racing, etc? The Z28 built its legend on handling just as much as straight line performance. The new TOP DOG car will also be an all-around performer.

Its just obvious to me that this car should be called Z28, since it will very much be a special order, limited production street legal race car.

Why is 69 the only year that is relevant?

There wasn't even an SS for 25 years of the car's history.

I think we're all looking at this all wrong anyway.

Everybody debates the two name, which is better, which was better, etc. etc.

The issue is not whether SS or Z28 should be the top car. There will be a high power, very well optioned mass production "top model", and then there will be a more limited production, even higher HP, Z06 type car that will be "THE top dog". The issue is which name better fits each car.

During the 1st gen, which car was the mass production street bruiser and which was the limited production, street legal racer? Answers are obvious to me.

Which car had a reputation for competition, racing, etc? The Z28 built its legend on handling just as much as straight line performance. The new TOP DOG car will also be an all-around performer.

Its just obvious to me that this car should be called Z28, since it will very much be a special order, limited production street legal race car.Excellent response. I couldn't have said it any better. :bow:

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Then don't read it Doug.

Last time I checked, this is a discussion forum.

;)

Then don't read it Doug.

Last time I checked, this is a discussion forum.

;)Hey at least we now know Doug is still breathing. :D

I hear that. Yesterday was my first post here in a couple of months...

....and half of those who care deeply think it should be SS - and the other half think it should be Z28.....

And half of those won't be buying a new Camaro anyway .....

....Remember: the name "Camaro" means 'friend, pal, or comrade'....

No it doesn't. It means I'm about to kick your ass!

First gen Z28 could keep up with the Big Block cars, lets not even get into the 350 cars...
LT1 Second Gen Z28's could blow the doors off 402 powerd SS cars.
Z28 was the only performance package from 1976 to 1996 (IROC was an enhancement to the Z28)
From 96 to 2002, it was nothing more then a hood and badges.
At this point, doesnt matter...Z28 will return to the throne.

... Z28 was the only performance package from 1976 to 1996 (IROC was an enhancement to the Z28)...

Change that to 1977. There was no Z28 option in '76.

None from 88 to 90 either....though I guess the IROC being an "enhanced" Z28 in earlier years means that the 88-90 IROC is really a Z28....just not called a Z28....but it really was a Z28....with a different name.

But regardless - you could not get a Camaro with a "Z28" on its side in 1988, 1989, or 1990.

But regardless - you could not get a Camaro with a "Z28" on its side in 1988, 1989, or 1990.

They say "Z28" on the dash board.

From 96 to 2002, it was nothing more then a hood and badges.

a couple pages up:

rest assured that the 4th gen SS was not a stripe and badge package only.

If you don't believe me -- bring me a bone stock Z and a bone stock SS to Spring Mountain -- and I'll prove it to you.

:D

They say "Z28" on the dash board.
Ok. What did it say on the option sheet? :)

So you agree that the IROC-Z was an "enhanced" Z28? If so, may I ask what was "enhanced" about it?

Bob

Bob, I know we dont have to go over what a fully loaded IROC got vs Z28. I guess the point is that there was no SS for almost 20 years, and this is where Z28 took its rightful place as the top level Camaro.

As for it not being a hood and badges...I know Scott knows 100-294809238423-84203984x more then all of us, but....track times dont lie. Ive seen just as many Z28's crack into the high 12's stock as SS's. If the budget was there for it, I think that Chevy could more for the SS cars, such as a LS6 for the 01-02 years, larger brakes, spring/shock revision...but then again, that would have made for a tougher battle for who is the real king of Camaro now.

Bob, I know we dont have to go over what a fully loaded IROC got vs Z28. I guess the point is that there was no SS for almost 20 years, and this is where Z28 took its rightful place as the top level Camaro.
I'm not going to express an opinion on whether or not the Z28's "rightful place" is the 'top level' Camaro, but I do agree with the main part of your statement.

As for it not being a hood and badges...I know Scott knows 100-294809238423-84203984x more then all of us, but....track times dont lie. Ive seen just as many Z28's crack into the high 12's stock as SS's.
Without a doubt. In fact, I see some irony here...to wit...everyone talks about how the original Z28s were made primarily for the twisties....yet it was the 4th Gen SSs that were better on the road course than their Z28 brethren.

If the budget was there for it, I think that Chevy could more for the SS cars, such as a LS6 for the 01-02 years, larger brakes, spring/shock revision...but then again, that would have made for a tougher battle for who is the real king of Camaro now.
LOL. This little debate is kind of like the weight issue....there are so few people that are really passionate about it, that it only gets traction here in this forum.

Personally....I don't care. I do, however, think the SS moniker is way overused these days.

Bob

IMHO IROC-Z was just a marketing ploy. They were still Z28's. ;)

Ok. What did it say on the option sheet? :)

So you agree that the IROC-Z was an "enhanced" Z28? If so, may I ask what was "enhanced" about it?

Bob


I'll check mine later, but I'm pretty sure it said "RPO Z28".

As far as which enhancements: wheels, tires, suspension tuning, added stiffening, ("wonder bar"), and some other stuff like better gear ratio with the LB9 - just off the top of my head.

Charlie...how can one car be an "enhancement" over the other, when only one of them exists for the model years in question (88-90)?

The bottom line....as insignificant as it may be....is that the IROC-Z was the top Camaro in those three years. Once again, as insignificant as that may be.

Bob

rest assured that the 4th gen SS was not a stripe and badge package only.

If you don't believe me -- bring me a bone stock Z and a bone stock SS to Spring Mountain -- and I'll prove it to you.

:D

Could you elaborate for those of us who can't get to Spring Mountain?

Could you elaborate for those of us who can't get to Spring Mountain?

The SS had consistently faster times than a Z28.

Bottom line: SS = All around superior performance to Z28.

/me ducks and runs like hell

Charlie...how can one car be an "enhancement" over the other, when only one of them exists for the model years in question (88-90)?



Semantics I guess. I was describing the differences on the '85-'87's when you could buy either a Z28 or IROC-Z8

BTW, I just checked the build sheet on my '89 IROC, and yes, it says "Z28".

Personally, I didn't much care for that dumb IROC marketing scheme nor the stupid series it came from.

Ok. :)

Originally Posted by Z284ever:
Personally, I didn't much care for that dumb IROC marketing scheme nor the stupid series it came from.
I thought it was a good thing at the time, a fresh break from the boring 2-tone Z28's in the day. I also liked seeing the top drivers of the day in a "Driver's" race with equally prepared cars...kinda cool!
Different strokes, I guess...

I'm not going to express an opinion on whether or not the Z28's "rightful place" is the 'top level' Camaro, but I do agree with the main part of your statement.

I gotta save this thread...


Without a doubt. In fact, I see some irony here...to wit...everyone talks about how the original Z28s were made primarily for the twisties....yet it was the 4th Gen SSs that were better on the road course than their Z28 brethren.

This is true, but the SS had extra attention from SLP and GMPD then the Z28 did.

LOL. This little debate is kind of like the weight issue....there are so few people that are really passionate about it, that it only gets traction here in this forum.

Im sure that there are more then enough passionate people here to have a debate about what the rear view mirror should look like.



What a tick...pick a side Bob!!
Personally....I don't care. I do, however, think the SS moniker is way overused these days.


or

Bottom line: SS = All around superior performance to Z28.


As they say, history is in the past....pick a side Bob.



IROC-Z's were...IROC-Z28's. They WERE Z28, just the LONE Z28 option was no longer available, hence it being an "option". Unless you got the full tilt IROC, you basicly got a Z28 with badges.

But it still didn't say Z28 anywhere. It was an IROC-Z....every piece of literature I ever saw that concerned the 88-90 Camaro said so.

Pick a side? Ok - 1LE.

:D

But it still didn't say Z28 anywhere. It was an IROC-Z....every piece of literature I ever saw that concerned the 88-90 Camaro said so.

Pick a side? Ok - 1LE.

:D

Yeah, you're kinda right there Bob. Chevy's marketing department sort of screwed the pooch on that one if you ask me.

But eventhough, the 88-90's had their exterior Z28 badges (which the 85-87 IROC's carried), replaced with IROC-Z badges, and Chevy literature wrote the term "Z28" momentarily out of the script, it still says Z28 on the build sheet (as do all the 4th gen SS's BTW), and still carries a big red Z28 emblem on the dash.

That tells me that perhaps not everyone at Chevy was brain dead in 1989 when it came to the Camaro.:)

LOL. Ok.