Do you think GM will offer a Firebird/TA after a couple years of production?

A thread in the lounge made me think of this.

I really think it's a sin that GM did not to offer the T/A or Firebird but I understand their reasoning. If they were to do it now they could stand to loose a lot of money if this car bombs. -Which I'm sure it will NOT! THe time spent away from the F-Cars is creating a lot of buzz and attracting new buyers. I think it has also helped to change the stereotype of the typical Camaro owner. No more mullet mobile! (I hope)

ANYWAY....

My theory is that GM is going to see how the Camaro sells before they sink money into the production of the cousin car.. I say give it a couple years. If the Camaro is a hit, I think they may try to 'sink their teeth in farther' and make another hit w/ the TA, Firebird.

What's your take? Do you think they may do it?

I agree with what your thinking. But your going to get people swearing on the bible that it's never going to happen. I know it may not be in the pipeline now but if you step back and think about all the things that can happen you never know.

I thought you've been around long enough to know better than to start this!!!!! :( :no: :shame:

(this dead horse has been beaten well beyond recognition ;))

^ meh.. I'm not in this section much.. But I'm in the mood to talk 5th gen today..

I'm not asking 'will' they make it and I'm not crying about why they didn't make it.. I'm just asking do you think it may happen after a couple years of production..

Sorry if this may be some sort of a repost.. I just thought it would be a good topic, if we can be civil about it. :)

Very dead horse that's starting to decompose. The way I see it I'm happy with the Camaro but if GM gives Pontiac a new Firebird/TA or even GTO that will be great too. I may not buy one but it would be nice to have the choice. If not the Camaro is fine with me.

......only if they are stupid.

I think it will be a GTO again in 09/10. I don't think a new TA will be coming out for a while.

If the camaro sells enough I guess you can't say anything is impossible for the 6th gen, but I can't see it coming anytime b4 then if ever.

from what i've heard with what they have to deal with to license the Trans Am name, i don't think we'll be seeing a T/A ever again

a Firebird is not out of the question if the coupe market takes off unexpectedly.. as of this time, all i've heard is that there are absolutely no plans in the works for a Firebird...

as for what i'd like out of a Firebird.. i'd like to see them move it away from the Camaro.. put it on the Alpha platform, make it a smaller more nimble car.. but then the question becomes, will Alpha be able to fit a V8.. if not will enthusiests have a problem if the top Firebird would have a turbo 3.6L for instance.. making 350 or so horsepower?..

*this is based purely on speculation.. and what i think would be cool.. not based on fact or inside tips or anything

Trans Am is dead GM had to write a check for each one they sold. Not doing that again.

If you do get a Firebird it will have zilch to do with Camaro.

[/thread]

There will be no Firebird on the Zeta platform. The Camaro and next-gen GTO will share the same platform.

If there's any chance of a Firebird comeback, it'll be on the Alpha platform.

i dont see a need for a TA, especially with the GTO, G8 and soltice. I thought Pontiac was trying to move away from the boy racer image, a new TA certainly wouldnt help that cause!

A thread in the lounge made me think of this.

I really think it's a sin that GM did not to offer the T/A or Firebird but I understand their reasoning. If they were to do it now they could stand to loose a lot of money if this car bombs. -Which I'm sure it will NOT! THe time spent away from the F-Cars is creating a lot of buzz and attracting new buyers. I think it has also helped to change the stereotype of the typical Camaro owner. No more mullet mobile! (I hope)

ANYWAY....

My theory is that GM is going to see how the Camaro sells before they sink money into the production of the cousin car.. I say give it a couple years. If the Camaro is a hit, I think they may try to 'sink their teeth in farther' and make another hit w/ the TA, Firebird.

What's your take? Do you think they may do it?

I see it's dead horse season yet again. :shrug:

Well beyer, I know you've been around long enough and already know the answer (many times over I'm guessing), but I guess the question does serve a purpose for those who have joined the site of late, and don't use the search button and the subject left the sticky section some time ago.


1. Will the Firebird Return?

If you mean as a clone of the Camaro, nope.
A few people from GM have weighed in on this since the concept came out last January. Although the common thread is never say never, the thing that comes through is that IF GM used the Firebird name, it would be on a car very different from the Camaro.


2. Will the Trans Am name ever return?

To paraphrase Chris Tucker, not only no, but H*LL NO!!!
The problem as mentioned is that the Trans Am name is owned by the SCCA (www.SCCA.org). To make a long story short, John Delorean who had a habit of stealing race course names to apply to Pontiacs earned GM a threatened lawsuit when the Trans Am name was used on a Firebird appearence package. GM settled by giving $5 to the SCCA for each Trans Am sold. GM tried to get out of the deal when the 3rd gen Firebirds came out by naming the performance version T/A, which was dropped when the SCCA again threatened legal action, and GM decided using the full name & paying $5 per car was easier and cheaper than tying up their legal department when there was bigger fish to fry.

With the lapse in production, GM would have to renegotiate the useage of the Trans Am name with the SCCA, who will no doubt demand alot more than $5 per car. After 40 years of inflation and an equally long amount of built up fans, not to mention being locked to a $5 royalty that became relatively worthless by the time "Smokey and the Bandit" came out (we had runaway inflation in the 70s), you can't blame them. With all the other names GM owns and can create, GM would probally rather stick forks in their eyes than give away money to use the Trans Am name again.

To top it off, Pontiac no more wants to be associated with the historic Pontiac Trans Ams any more than Buick wants to be associated with Grand Nationals (another revenue negative name that has zero chance of returning).


3. What is the most likely way the Firebird name will return?

As a mid sized, G6 sedan replacement........ relax, I'm just kidding. :p

In order, first most likely the Firebird will be a sports coupe version spinoff of GM's upcoming small RWD architecture the way Camaro is a spinoff of Kappa. The next most likely candidate is a GTO-like car based on Camaro. Basically a high content, low-to-no option car that would start well into the $30K range. The $32,000 WS6 Trans Am was the most popular Firebird while the cheap Formula LS1 barely sold 1000 cars it's final year. Firebird customers have been far more willing to pay almost ridiculous amounts of money compared to the prices on the same car in Camaro showrooms.


4. Is it possible that if the Camaro is a success, then Pontiac will have a Firebird the following year or 2 later?

Only in the minds of 2nd tier car rags and never-say-die Pontiac enthusiasts..... as if GM would make a Camaro if they didn't expect it to be a success. :rolleyes:

If the coupe market Exploded (as in with a capital "E"!), then we have an entirely different set of circumstances. But even then, expecting a Camaro with a Pontiac nose grafted on and new tail lights ala previous Firebirds and marketed to people who want a "Pontiac Camaro", again isn't going to happen. We'd probally see an upmarket coupe with a different personality and different pricing as I mentioned.

Also, it takes at least 18 months from approval to get a car to showrooms. No automaker is going to bring out a new vehicle, sit around and wait for the 1st year figures, then bring out a model the following year. Anything that comes out within a 2 year timeframe was already planned.

In short, whatever Camaro spinoff that comes along 1 to 2 years later didn't come along simply because anyone waited to see how Camaro would sell. ;)

I see it's dead horse season yet again. :shrug:

As evident by the "Z28 vs. SS" debate rearing its pointless head yet again. ;)

the subject left the sticky section some time ago.

Not true, it is in the "Camaro Super FAQ to answer all questions!" sticky, which I have just edited and added your EXCELLENT post above into. Thanks!

I plan be revamping that Sticky soon to add more.

I see it's dead horse season yet again. :shrug:

Well beyer, I know you've been around long enough and already know the answer (many times over I'm guessing), but I guess the question does serve a purpose for those who have joined the site of late, and don't use the search button and the subject left the sticky section some time ago.


1. Will the Firebird Return?

If you mean as a clone of the Camaro, nope.
A few people from GM have weighed in on this since the concept came out last January. Although the common thread is never say never, the thing that comes through is that IF GM used the Firebird name, it would be on a car very different from the Camaro.


2. Will the Trans Am name ever return?

To paraphrase Chris Tucker, not only no, but H*LL NO!!!
The problem as mentioned is that the Trans Am name is owned by the SCCA (www.SCCA.org). To make a long story short, John Delorean who had a habit of stealing race course names to apply to Pontiacs earned GM a threatened lawsuit when the Trans Am name was used on a Firebird appearence package. GM settled by giving $5 to the SCCA for each Trans Am sold. GM tried to get out of the deal when the 3rd gen Firebirds came out by naming the performance version T/A, which was dropped when the SCCA again threatened legal action, and GM decided using the full name & paying $5 per car was easier and cheaper than tying up their legal department when there was bigger fish to fry.

With the lapse in production, GM would have to renegotiate the useage of the Trans Am name with the SCCA, who will no doubt demand alot more than $5 per car. After 40 years of inflation and an equally long amount of built up fans, not to mention being locked to a $5 royalty that became relatively worthless by the time "Smokey and the Bandit" came out (we had runaway inflation in the 70s), you can't blame them. With all the other names GM owns and can create, GM would probally rather stick forks in their eyes than give away money to use the Trans Am name again.

To top it off, Pontiac no more wants to be associated with the historic Pontiac Trans Ams any more than Buick wants to be associated with Grand Nationals (another revenue negative name that has zero chance of returning).


3. What is the most likely way the Firebird name will return?

As a mid sized, G6 sedan replacement........ relax, I'm just kidding. :p

In order, first most likely the Firebird will be a sports coupe version spinoff of GM's upcoming small RWD architecture the way Camaro is a spinoff of Kappa. The next most likely candidate is a GTO-like car based on Camaro. Basically a high content, low-to-no option car that would start well into the $30K range. The $32,000 WS6 Trans Am was the most popular Firebird while the cheap Formula LS1 barely sold 1000 cars it's final year. Firebird customers have been far more willing to pay almost ridiculous amounts of money compared to the prices on the same car in Camaro showrooms.


4. Is it possible that if the Camaro is a success, then Pontiac will have a Firebird the following year or 2 later?

Only in the minds of 2nd tier car rags and never-say-die Pontiac enthusiasts..... as if GM would make a Camaro if they didn't expect it to be a success. :rolleyes:

If the coupe market Exploded (as in with a capital "E"!), then we have an entirely different set of circumstances. But even then, expecting a Camaro with a Pontiac nose grafted on and new tail lights ala previous Firebirds and marketed to people who want a "Pontiac Camaro", again isn't going to happen. We'd probally see an upmarket coupe with a different personality and different pricing as I mentioned.

Also, it takes at least 18 months from approval to get a car to showrooms. No automaker is going to bring out a new vehicle, sit around and wait for the 1st year figures, then bring out a model the following year. Anything that comes out within a 2 year timeframe was already planned.

In short, whatever Camaro spinoff that comes along 1 to 2 years later didn't come along simply because anyone waited to see how Camaro would sell. ;)



Someone buy this fella a beer! :bow:

Well said! Hopefully some of the excessively persistent people will have enough attention span to read that, haha!

I wonder if GM attornies would even approve of a car name with the word "fire" in it, nowadays.

know wat would be sweet. a tt v6 trans am on a c6 chassis with the style of a 2002 ws6.... hmm now that would be pure seexxxxxxxx

The TA and Bird are gone and not coming back anytime soon.

We do have a good chance still of seeing a more adult like coupe with a longer wheel base.

Some yet think it will be a GTO and some say it will sport a new name. at this point I am all infavore of a new name and creating a new Pontiac ledgend.

The reason I am infavor of dumping the GTO name is the plain fact i am tired of the this does not look like a GTO whines. If you ask 5 people what a GTO looks like you will never get more than 2 to agree.

The GTO name has too much baggage at this point and a new car like a Can Am or the like will invoke much less pissing and moning. Just they need to make sure they do not go with a number name unless it is 2+2.

GM has another smaller platform in the works to compete with the 3 series BMWs. I would rather they base a new V8 Firebird on that.

In order, first most likely the Firebird will be a sports coupe version spinoff of GM's upcoming small RWD architecture the way Camaro is a spinoff of Kappa.

huh?:shock:

GM has another smaller platform in the works to compete with the 3 series BMWs. I would rather they base a new V8 Firebird on that.

So would I

GM has another smaller platform in the works to compete with the 3 series BMWs. I would rather they base a new V8 Firebird on that.


that is if Alpha will even support V8s..

Some yet think it will be a GTO and some say it will sport a new name. at this point I am all infavore of a new name and creating a new Pontiac ledgend.

The reason I am infavor of dumping the GTO name is the plain fact i am tired of the this does not look like a GTO whines. If you ask 5 people what a GTO looks like you will never get more than 2 to agree.

The GTO name has too much baggage at this point and a new car like a Can Am or the like will invoke much less pissing and moning. Just they need to make sure they do not go with a number name unless it is 2+2.

I agree! My top choice would be Banshee - after that Tempest. Calling it a G10 (or whatever) would be dull and boring - but having a muscle car be the only Pontiac aside from Solstice with an actual name would make it distinctive. Another benefit is Banshee has tons of heritage, which adds a lot more style than something new. Personally, I think Pontiac should have used "GTO" instead of "GXP" for their performance brand.....

know wat would be sweet. a tt v6 trans am on a c6 chassis with the style of a 2002 ws6.... hmm now that would be pure seexxxxxxxx

Why would they make a new car and give it a 7 year old body? :confused:

People who want the TA so bad should just buy the new camaro and make or have the nose made up and vents in the fenders. I hate on some of these forums that people want and wont make it them self. Over half the cars on these forums are nothing I cant buy from a run of the mill parts retailer.

GM has another smaller platform in the works to compete with the 3 series BMWs. I would rather they base a new V8 Firebird on that.

Don't hold your breathe.

Don't hold your breathe.

The firebird name or the V8 Alpha?

Don't hold your breathe.


I know there are some here who can't stand the thought of Firebird's return, but sooner or later it's coming back. The new Camaro, though nicely styled, is too big to be taken seriously. There's a chance it will not sell as well as hoped.

pontiac should either drop the gto and make a differnt better looking hp coupe...or keep the gto but totaly redesign it maybe around a year after the 5th gen camaro comes out

The firebird name or the V8 Alpha?


I was actually referring to a V8 Alpha.

I was actually referring to a V8 Alpha.

Because it wont handle it or for marketing? I think that would be a killer car... I like the M3 though, not the Monza

If someone says that GM will never rebadge a car, I'll just say "there's a first time for everything :)".

If someone says that GM will never rebadge a car, I'll just say "there's a first time for everything :)".
GM has rebadged just about every car in their line-up for decades now!! :lol: "First time" was a long time ago!! ;)

Personally I'd like to see a production version of the LS7 Solstice... or at least an LS3. If they changed the styling enough, would Pontiac enthusiasts except a V8 Solstice as the new "Firebird"?

I know there are some here who can't stand the thought of Firebird's return, but sooner or later it's coming back. The new Camaro, though nicely styled, is too big to be taken seriously. There's a chance it will not sell as well as hoped.


i dont think there is anyone here who "can't stand the thought of the Firebird's return".. theres a big differerence between that and the realistic idea that it probably won't return...

i dont think there is anyone here who "can't stand the thought of the Firebird's return".. theres a big differerence between that and the realistic idea that it probably won't return...

Not realistic to think it won't. There's money in it, and profits are what GM is about. Why is it that when you start talking about the Firebird, Camaro owners start sounding like Mustang owners?

I'm with Dwarf Killer on this, it seems whenever a new Firebird thread is posted, plenty Camaro owners come in and basically bash the idea and say it's not worth it.

Back when Camaro was in "hiatus" and not officially given the green light, I posted a few threads abou a possible Firebird return on different paltform, different engine/transmission options etc to differentiate it from Camaor and many people just shot it down. Not sure why,.

I'm with Dwarf Killer on this, it seems whenever a new Firebird thread is posted, plenty Camaro owners come in and basically bash the idea and say it's not worth it.

Back when Camaro was in "hiatus" and not officially given the green light, I posted a few threads abou a possible Firebird return on different paltform, different engine/transmission options etc to differentiate it from Camaor and many people just shot it down. Not sure why,.

Here is the problem based on my view as a guy with two Pontiac's in the Garage.

Fiest Pontiac does not need nor does Chevy a clone of the Bird in the line up. We have cried to let go the badge enginnering for yeats and now that GM is doing it we cry for badge engineered cars.

With the coupe market at it is it's a hard sell anyway and if you make a siter car it will rob sales and what extra money makeing a different car will be wasted with the extra design work as well the tooling to make it happen.

Second Pontiac is going to move away from Chevy ands try to not just be a fancy Chevy. If one was to push for a Camaro sister you will be giving up on their plans for a different car that will fill out GM's line up better and not rob sales from the Camaro.

I Love Firebirds as well as many at GM but in this day and age you need to do what is right and smart and not just follow your heart. these are the hard choices GM has to make that Scott points out.

It is kind of like Mom and Dad not letting you something as a kid but when you grow up and see if from where they were at it makes it clear they were right.

If Pontiac would make a different car a Firebird people would cry that it is not a Firebird just as they did with the GTO. I love the GTO and had no issues with it but many Pontiac people havce a preconcieved idea what a GTO is. Even if the do a new coupe I would be in favore to not even call it a GTO with all the stuborn Pontiac people complaining.

With the new Alph Pontiac stands to gain the most sho lets let them work we may get our cake and get to eat it too.

Hyperv6,

Oh trust me, I'm not arguing the fact that a rebadge of the Camaro for Pontiac doesn't make alot of sense. Maybe I was too vague and didn't properly express my point, but what I meant to say is even when anyone brings up a Firebird return on a different chassis, with different engine/tranny combos, Camaro owners usually come up in arms arguing against it.

I would understand if everyone was demanding a sister car/clone of Camaro, and Camaro owners being reluctant about it, but some of us bring up the point that an smaller, nimbler 'Bird (namely Alpha) could be intriguing. And it still gets shot down with the " Get over it, Firebird is dead", or "it's not coming back."

I just don't understand all the "hate" for Firebird when it's being proposed on a totally different platform? :confused:

I'd love to see a new Firebird based on the Camaro. Imo, the Firebird can only be on the same platform as the Camaro. If it's on another platform, call it something else. Don't disgrace the Firebird name by placing it on a smaller car with a 4cyl or 6cyl as the top engine. Even if it did have a V8, come up with another name before calling it a Firebird.

Having two different models is why I've always loved Fbodies. Sometimes the Camaro looked better and sometimes the Firebird looked better. There was a choice. I've owned both Firebirds/TA's & Camaros in the past. More Firebirds & T/A's though. I don't think there should be a Camaro without a Firebird.

GM just needs to build the frikken cars and watch both of them sell. Who cares if they don't match the sales of the moostang. Most of their owners have drunk the mustang kool-aid for too long and will never buy anything else. I don't think the Camaro by itself will come close to the Mustang sales. I do hope it makes the 100,000 goal though. Because if it doesn't, we won't have a Camaro or the hope of a Firebird.

The least GM could do is to make a Firebird Concept Car and show us what it might look like.

If anybody has read my posts, (especially "Lamenting The Loss of the Firebird") from about a year ago; I think it obvious what I would like to see!

Although I owned a fourth-generation Z28 I’ve never been a “Camaro guy” and it is very unlikely that I will buy another; nothing against them…just not that interested in them anymore. I’ll always appreciate them and what they mean to the automotive world but ownership of a new one is likely not in the cards (I am, however, in the marekt for a '73 or '79 TransAm to restore!).

That said, anybody who says “never” to another Firebird TransAm just doesn’t understand business in general or the automotive business in particular (no offense intended). :bow:

Writing checks to the SCCA, tooling costs, testing costs, etc are not the real issue…the only issue GM needs to look at is whether they can make a profit from it sufficient to be worth the effort taking all those “costs” into account…if it makes business sense to do it then there is no reason to think that there will never be another Firebird TransAm; if they can’t then there won’t be another.

To be blunt, I don't think the market it there; at least not long term but I also hope I'm wrong!

Hyperv6,

Oh trust me, I'm not arguing the fact that a rebadge of the Camaro for Pontiac doesn't make alot of sense. Maybe I was too vague and didn't properly express my point, but what I meant to say is even when anyone brings up a Firebird return on a different chassis, with different engine/tranny combos, Camaro owners usually come up in arms arguing against it.

I would understand if everyone was demanding a sister car/clone of Camaro, and Camaro owners being reluctant about it, but some of us bring up the point that an smaller, nimbler 'Bird (namely Alpha) could be intriguing. And it still gets shot down with the " Get over it, Firebird is dead", or "it's not coming back."

I just don't understand all the "hate" for Firebird when it's being proposed on a totally different platform? :confused:

I just see hate on the Pontiac end if it is not a sister car to the Camaro or is in some way similar to a past Bird.

I have had issues with the GTO people who complain on ever GTO idea or even the last GTO by saying it does not look like a GTO.

I have posed the question to many and few agree on what a GTO should look like. Some like the early years, some the second gen while others love the last one. I just see the same thing with a all new bird and too many complaining it does not look like a bird.

At the point Pontiac is at I would have no problem with all new models and all new name [drop the G numbers]. New ledgends can't be made if we keep reliving the past. Pontiac has lost so many buyers they almost need a total fresh start to claim new buyers that have never owned or considered a Pontiac. In conquest buyers the past history means little and in some cases bring up bad memories of G body Bonnevilles etc.

As for the Camaro Bird rivaly it has always been like Michigan vs Ohio State. Both are great schools and teams but people always have their favorite.

Oh I hear you on the fact that from a Firebird fan's perspective, you usually hear that if it doesn't keep the 2+2, V8, RWD formula that most Pontiac fans would rather see it not brought back.

What I'm saying, and I believe Dwarf Killer is as well, is that most Camaro owners are always against a Firebird return no matter what the proposal is, whether that be sister car to Camaro, o totally different platform. I'm just trying to understand why all the hate?

There is no hate for the Firebird.

There is, however, a great deal of hate for the 50 thousand threads that begin with the title "When are they bringing back the Firebird / Trans Am?".

People are just sick of the threads. How many of these f'n things have to be posted? Does anybody search or read the stickies before they lunge for the "new thread" button?

That was a rhetorical question of course. I know they don't.

There is no hate for the Firebird.

There is, however, a great deal of hate for the 50 thousand threads that begin with the title "When are they bringing back the Firebird / Trans Am?".

People are just sick of the threads. How many of these f'n things have to be posted? Does anybody search or read the stickies before they lunge for the "new thread" button?

That was a rhetorical question of course. I know they don't.

While I'll agree there seems to be new posts regarding the return of Firebird/Trans Am every few weeks it seems, and basically there isn't any news or new news to be reported, it still seems that the majority of Camaro owners always get up in arms about it. And I'm not talking about the excessive threads, but about the car itself.

Obviously I'd love for the nameplate to make a return, I feel there's so much heritage and history not to. I obviously realize the market conditions and the fact it's not on the horizon, but people do care about Firebird. I know this is a Camaro website, but I'd lke to think we're all on the same side.

There is no hate for the Firebird.

There is, however, a great deal of hate for the 50 thousand threads that begin with the title "When are they bringing back the Firebird / Trans Am?".

People are just sick of the threads. How many of these f'n things have to be posted? Does anybody search or read the stickies before they lunge for the "new thread" button?

That was a rhetorical question of course. I know they don't.

The treads are bad enough but I also get tired of the magazine stories that just fan the flames and stir it up again.

There is no hate for the Firebird.

There is, however, a great deal of hate for the 50 thousand threads that begin with the title "When are they bringing back the Firebird / Trans Am?".

People are just sick of the threads. How many of these f'n things have to be posted? Does anybody search or read the stickies before they lunge for the "new thread" button?

That was a rhetorical question of course. I know they don't.


And of course you weren't nearly as annoyed at all the "When is the Camaro going to Return" threads? If it annoys you so much why do you feel compelled to post in the thread at all? Perhaps you should just leave it to the Firebird fans? Or dare I say, maybe you're one of those people who resented the Firebird because it was a more expensive 'upmarket' version of the Camaro?

Whatever the reason, you won't stop the desire for a more extreme, radical car than the Camaro. That's what the Firebird was. We're talking Alpha here, and it would be a really good idea to put a V8 Firebird onto that new RWD platform. Like putting an LS3 into a BMW M3, it would be an incredible musclecar.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/9eb99a6f-9111-4976-8ec9-99830062b402.htm

5:16

:cool:

Scott says feb 2009

And of course you weren't nearly as annoyed at all the "When is the Camaro going to Return" threads? Yes, actually I was and still am when they pop up.

If it annoys you so much why do you feel compelled to post in the thread at all? Perhaps you should just leave it to the Firebird fans? Ummm... because somebody asked the "Camaro fans" the reason for "all the hate". If you don't want to read answers to questions and only want to add to your post count, stick to the lounge.

Or dare I say, maybe you're one of those people who resented the Firebird because it was a more expensive 'upmarket' version of the Camaro? Hmmm.... you may be on to something here.

Lemmee see...I've owned three Camaros... some of my friends also own Camaros but.... I currently own a Pontiac, have owned Pontiacs in the past, almost bought a new Formula Firehawk back in '02, brother owns a 30th WS6, Dad had a '97 Firebird, best friend had a '97 Formula WS6, a good friend I race with has a '99 WS6 'vert. Yup thats it. I'm jealous. You got me. How did I not see this before? Wow. Thank you for enlightening me. How did you know? Scary. :rolleyes:

Next time think a little before you type.

Whatever the reason, you won't stop the desire for a more extreme, radical car than the Camaro. That's what the Firebird was. We're talking Alpha here, and it would be a really good idea to put a V8 Firebird onto that new RWD platform. Like putting an LS3 into a BMW M3, it would be an incredible musclecar. :confused: Where the hell did I type that? I don't want to stop the desire. Why would I? I'm just sick of people not facing reality.

The market simply is not there and Pontiac doesn't want anything to do with the name. Will this change in the future? Who knows? However, we know about upcoming products out through what? 2010? No Firebird on the horizon. If anything, Pontiac is moving farther away from historically significant names. Thats the reality of the situation right now.

You can choose to accept it or not. You can continue to twist the statements of others into some perceived bias or not.

might be a market for after market bumpers and fire bird logo to make a 5thgen look like what someone might think a 5thgen firebird would look like

Yes, actually I was and still am when they pop up.

Ummm... because somebody asked the "Camaro fans" the reason for "all the hate". If you don't want to read answers to questions and only want to add to your post count, stick to the lounge.

But why read the thread in the first place? There must be a reason.

Hmmm.... you may be on to something here.

Lemmee see...I've owned three Camaros... some of my friends also own Camaros but.... I currently own a Pontiac, have owned Pontiacs in the past, almost bought a new Formula Firehawk back in '02,

Currently own what Pontiac? A Wave? And 'almost' sounds like you couldn't afford it and got stuck with a stripper Camaro. :lol:


brother owns a 30th WS6, Dad had a '97 Firebird, best friend had a '97 Formula WS6, a good friend I race with has a '99 WS6 'vert. Yup thats it. I'm jealous. You got me. How did I not see this before? Wow. Thank you for enlightening me. How did you know? Scary. :rolleyes:

Next time think a little before you type.

Your friends and relatives have good taste, but I don't see how you ever lived through all the laughter and ridicule from your brothers. No wonder you can't stand Firebirds.



:confused: Where the hell did I type that? I don't want to stop the desire. Why would I? I'm just sick of people not facing reality.

I'd like to find out what makes a guy like you, who knows nothing so sure.

The market simply is not there and Pontiac doesn't want anything to do with the name.

You have proof of this I presume? Feel free to post a link.

Will this change in the future? Who knows?

Not you, that's for sure.

However, know about upcoming products out through what? 2010? No Firebird on the horizon. If anything, Pontiac is moving farther away from historically significant names. Thats the reality of the situation right now.

ROTFL. Moving away from historically significant names! Like what? Camaro? Or perhaps GTO, Impala? Really. Speaking of thinking before you type...

You can choose to accept it or not. You can continue to twist the statements of others into some perceived bias or not.

There will only be one snag to using the Firebird moniker: in the St. Therese final contract the name Camaro could not be used for five years. The name Firebird can never be used again. But then, we're talking unions and things can be bargained for.

Clean it up, guys. No need to argue here.

I To top it off, Pontiac no more wants to be associated with the historic Pontiac Trans Ams any more than Buick wants to be associated with Grand Nationals (another revenue negative name that has zero chance of returning).


That's too bad, the Grand National is the only car worth a **** or that appeals to someone under the age of 65 that Buick has made in 35 years...

Clean it up, guys. No need to argue here.

Good point. :yes:

Clean it up, guys. No need to argue here.
That's too bad. I had to delete an amusing response for Mr. Killer the marketing analyst. :lol:

Fair enough. I'll let it drop.

One small clarification: Exactly 901 Formulas were built in 2002.

One small clarification: Exactly 901 Formulas were built in 2002.
I'm curious now. I'll have to see how many were Firehawks.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I can't remember if this was an '01 or an '02 I looked at. It's been a while.

For me the deal breaker was two fold...

1) An absurd dealer mark up that they absolutely would not budge on.

2) I felt that I could (and ultimately did) match or exceed the performance of the Firehawk with my current car for much less money.

I enjoy competing and trophies on my shelf much more than I enjoy owning some sort of status symbol. :cool:

My theory, of which I am quite proud, would see the Camaro as a stand alone or even with a GTO in the Pontiac stable fall short of sales goals and GM would not continue the 2 door version of the platform.
Regardless of the new GTO's looks, the name as far as sales are concerned is irreversibly tarnished. The Firebird and it's variants would generate more of a buzz than a new GTO would ever bring about in my opinion.
I have owned a 68 RS/SS, a 69, and 2 LS1 SS Camaros and have owned 3 Firebird Formulas, one I still have. I am the biggest die hard GM fan out there, but logic and GM's marketing department are sometimes mutually exclusive. If GM builds the Camaro I will buy one, but it it is going to take more than us die hards to support the car enough to continue it into the future. Pontiac can be the vehicle to bring in sales that may go to Ford or Dodge (remember the Challenger is coming) and I don't see the GTO as being capable of luring those buyers to the showroom.
As with everything at GM it will come down to numbers. A Firebird is a better choice than the GTO to, if nothing else, preserve the future of the Camaro.

My theory, of which I am quite proud, would see the Camaro as a stand alone or even with a GTO in the Pontiac stable fall short of sales goals and GM would not continue the 2 door version of the platform.
Regardless of the new GTO's looks, the name as far as sales are concerned is irreversibly tarnished. The Firebird and it's variants would generate more of a buzz than a new GTO would ever bring about in my opinion.
I have owned a 68 RS/SS, a 69, and 2 LS1 SS Camaros and have owned 3 Firebird Formulas, one I still have. I am the biggest die hard GM fan out there, but logic and GM's marketing department are sometimes mutually exclusive. If GM builds the Camaro I will buy one, but it it is going to take more than us die hards to support the car enough to continue it into the future. Pontiac can be the vehicle to bring in sales that may go to Ford or Dodge (remember the Challenger is coming) and I don't see the GTO as being capable of luring those buyers to the showroom.
As with everything at GM it will come down to numbers. A Firebird is a better choice than the GTO to, if nothing else, preserve the future of the Camaro.

I see a flaw in your therory. If GM had continued the GTO uninterupted like the Camaro, we would have been lucky if it turned out like the 06 Goat. People were excited when the GTO was comming back. Also that we were getting the Aussie muscle car that everyone who knew about it thought we were deprived of. People missed the goat like the miss the Firebird now. If anything were to "irreversibly" ruin a brand name it would be the 4th gen F body. (in my opinion) We all know that didnt happen. At least in my mind the 5th gen seems to erase that. The change of what a 60's Camaro which I think a camaro is supposed to be compared to a 4th gen is much worse than the morph from a 69 goat to a 06. For the record, I liked the 06 Goat.

Merely killing the 4th gen didn't ruin it. They were selling 3 times as many F-bodies as they were Saabs in North America. They also didn't bring back the GTO with any resemblance to where it left off. They rebadged a Monaro, a far cry from traditional GTO styling. In the sales world, where all of this is decided, the GTO IS tarnished in the public's eye. I am at Pontiac dealers three or four times a week with my job and the buzz there is that maybe they will get a Firebird since the Camaro is coming back. None of the GMs I spoke with are all too excited about another set of Goats chewing floorplan hay out in the lot. There was no mad rush to the dealerships to get the recently defunct GTO and the dealer down the street from me still has your choice of colors.
The car itself is phenomenally comfortable and capable. Unfortunately it doesn't have the aggressive looks that people want when they buy a car like that. Badge engineering is here to stay because it makes financial sense. Can you see the same car when you you see a Saab next to a Malibu? The performance of the all wheel drive turbo Saab compared to the Malibu is like night and day. Yet they have the same underpinnings. A unique exterior could be extracted from the Camaro/Impala platform to create a Firebird just as easily as the forementioned example.
I do not dislike GTOs, but the fact remains they are a sales dud. Pontiac cannot afford another one of those if it wants to stay away from a fate similar to Oldsmobile

Merely killing the 4th gen didn't ruin it. They were selling 3 times as many F-bodies as they were Saabs in North America. They also didn't bring back the GTO with any resemblance to where it left off. They rebadged a Monaro, a far cry from traditional GTO styling. In the sales world, where all of this is decided, the GTO IS tarnished in the public's eye. I am at Pontiac dealers three or four times a week with my job and the buzz there is that maybe they will get a Firebird since the Camaro is coming back. None of the GMs I spoke with are all too excited about another set of Goats chewing floorplan hay out in the lot. There was no mad rush to the dealerships to get the recently defunct GTO and the dealer down the street from me still has your choice of colors.
The car itself is phenomenally comfortable and capable. Unfortunately it doesn't have the aggressive looks that people want when they buy a car like that. Badge engineering is here to stay because it makes financial sense. Can you see the same car when you you see a Saab next to a Malibu? The performance of the all wheel drive turbo Saab compared to the Malibu is like night and day. Yet they have the same underpinnings. A unique exterior could be extracted from the Camaro/Impala platform to create a Firebird just as easily as the forementioned example.
I do not dislike GTOs, but the fact remains they are a sales dud. Pontiac cannot afford another one of those if it wants to stay away from a fate similar to Oldsmobile


Maybe the fact that most Pontiac Dealers added on a exorbant mark ups hurt the fact that people didn't buy GTOs. :rolleyes: And also many didn't allow test drives unless agreeing to purchase the car. I bet the dealer that still has a wide variety of GTO's that you go to won't budge at all on the price. Am I wrong?

Maybe the fact that most Pontiac Dealers added on a exorbant mark ups hurt the fact that people didn't buy GTOs. :rolleyes: And also many didn't allow test drives unless agreeing to purchase the car. I bet the dealer that still has a wide variety of GTO's that you go to won't budge at all on the price. Am I wrong?

I did go to a Pontiac dealer during the employee discount sales. I was on the fence and hoping for a GTO deal. The sales girl was in her early 20s and obviously didnt know about the car. I was checking it over and to my surprise she asked if I wanted to take it for a spin. So she headed into the dealer ship to get the keys. After several minutes of what Im sure was some educating of the new sales girl she emerged with "They said you cant drive it" I started it and reved it in the parking lot. I fell in love with the LS2 immediately. The sound, the way it shook. But I felt like a kid who didnt have their license yet reving moms car in the drive. I felt like a dork. I realized this would have been an impulse buy from people who didnt respect me enough to let me drive it. It wasnt even anywhere close to the deals that were being made on the Silverado.

Could I have afforded it? yup. Thankfully they didnt let me drive it and I have that much more money saved for a house. I bought my moms 02 accord with 8k cash and Im better off anyway.

I dont know if youre right, but Im not too proud that I would have made that kind of impulse buy now that I think about it. I was really hoping the Employee discount would be a deal I couldnt refuse at the time...

No, but I can't comment on the amount of discount. My father-in-law went to shop the GTO and the Vette just before he passed away:(. He drove a GTO and a Solstice GXP (turbo). This particular dealer had 30 or so GTOs come up from South Florida where they couldn't sell them. They could be had for less than sticker but as I wasn't there when he was at the dealer I can't say how much off sticker they were and I don't believe he pursued the numbers that day anyway. Unfortunately he never got to the Chevy dealer before he died. He already had ruled out the Pontiacs in favor of a base Vette. I told my Mother-in-law that he would have wanted me to have the Vette but she just won't listen to reason. You are better off with a house for sure, and at least it was an Accord instead of a Minivan.