Manual vs. Auto

**Of course a manual will be a stock stalled auto, this is strictly auto/stall/gears vs M6/gears with similar mods discussion**

Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.


Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?

The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.

:rolleyes: Thats pretty much the exact opposite of true.

**Of course a manual will be a stock stalled auto, this is strictly auto/stall/gears vs M6/gears with similar mods discussion**

Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.


Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?

Look at a lot of the pro drag cars, they are auto's with high stalls. No way, the human reaction, having to push in the clutch, move the shifter and release the clutch, then get back on the gas is faster. But I still like my M6 :D

Let them think what they want. Your probably not going to convince them otherwise anyways.

Let them think what they want. Your probably not going to convince them otherwise anyways.

Or just organize a track day at your local dragstrip (like during a test and tune night) and kill them one at a time until they all believe.

I personally know very few people who can shift well enough to go quicker in a manual than an automatic.

When NHRA Pro Stock, in 1973, generally switched from standard to automatic two speed lencos, most drivers went quicker, some by as much as a full tenth of a second. The only driver known to slow down by switching to an automatic, quantifiably so, was Ronnie Sox, by a verified
.04

This is typically the case between automatics and manuals. "Everybody" thinks they can shift faster than an automatic, and it is true there is less parasitic power loss with a standard, so on paper a manual is quicker/faster. However after years at the strip and thousands of passes, I have seen time and time again drivers improve their performance by switching to an automatic with a high stall converter.

Not to brag, but in my own car I switched from my M6 to a 700R4 with 3600 stall. What happened to me was that my times slowed down very slightly, and the mph dropped by about 1. The other side of the equation however was the starting line became much easier for me, launches became more consistent over many rounds, and it became far less difficult to deal with track preparation in regards to traction problems and bogging.

My most successful season was in a M6. That year I made it to the final round in 50% of my races at my local track and won most of them. However the wear and tear on the car steered me to the automatic and life became a lot easier.

With an auto and performance stall-converter, the drive-train is pre-loaded when you stage. That pre-loaded drive-train then produces "much better" reaction times (RTs) than manuals. Not to mention the very consistant shifts and ETs (time-after-time).

Check-out out a bracket race, or NHRA class event with dial-ins and see how many manuals you see. Manuals in today’s drag racing are more rare than rocking horse manure!

WD

I have an M6 and wouldn't want it any other way--unless I was ONLY using the car for drag racing. You are much less likely to miss a shift with an auto.

A properly set auto can be faster than a manual. Although the manual has less parasitic loss, power shifting without using the clutch still won't make it faster. An automatic also has the benefit of torque multiplication. That's one of the things a torque converter does. It usually has a 1.5 - 2.5 torque multiplier inside.

My powerglide only has one shift and won't shift by itself. I can slam my shifter forward and the shift is instantaneous. I can even install an electric or air solenoid and have it shifted electronically at the same rpm or time on every pass eliminating the human factor. I can use a transbrake with a 2 step and launch at the same rpm every time and by adjusting the 2 step I can easily try different launch rpms.

Now you mentioned a stock stalled auto. Yes that will be very sluggish shifting so comparing it to a manual isn't a fair comparison. You're also not going to find very many stock manual transmissions living too long if they're constantly powershifted. The factory manual transmissions also aren't going to take a huge amount of HP before they start breaking.

There's also a weight difference. Flywheel, clutch and manual transmission assembly is normally lighter then a typical automatic with torque converter. With all things being equal, the cars should also be the same weight.

Manual transmissions will always have the "fun factor" for street driving but anyone serious enough to drag race will have an auto unless you can afford a Lenco.

Stock vs. stock, AFAIK the record stands at a 12.89 @ 108 for an '02 SS (M6) driven by Evan Smith (well, at least it's a published record). I don't think there are any autos that have done the same STOCK.

BUT, throw in a high stall converter, gears, I believe the auto will be capable of going quicker in the 1/4 mile. The trap speed may be slower, but the time will be quicker ... basically, all things being "equal" (including drivers, reaction times, etc.), the auto will win every time.

All that being said, there are F-bodies running around that can run 9's with a 6-speed. That's really fast. But, there aren't many. Most of the cars running that fast are autos.

They will never change there mind, its like debateing religion. You might aswell drop the argument now lol. Automatic is quicker if everything is equal.

basically i think it comes down to the driver in that situation. i think if the driver dosent know what their doing then it will cost them.

I think that auto's are boring.

I think manuals are overrated and the fun factor is zilch in heavy traffic.

I think that auto's are boring.

Yes they are!! Unless you want to be quick.

Yes they are!! Unless you want to be quick.

And also be very, very consistant in the 1/4 and win bracket races!

WD

One of my friends with an 02 SS ran an 11.87 with a Yank stall, longtubes and gears.

Bad ass! One of my friends ran 13.09 @107 in his stock M6 01' SS.

I took my friends bone stock 02 WS6 down the track for a few passes one night.
I had never driven the car before and was able to match his best time of the night with my first pass, 13.45@107, and 2 more passes later I ran a 13.12@109 after getting used to the clutch.
If I had gotten one more pass I probably would have hit a high 12.

..... and this has officially turned into a pi$$ing contest :rolleyes:.

Again, my car has (had) BOTH the A4 and the M6 in it. Its fastest time so far has been with the M6, but it also had the benefit of headers (aka - POWER) at that point, so it's not a fair comparison.

Here are the real numbers though:

13.434 @ 105.80, 2.152 60' --- A4, 2.73's.
13.021 @ 107.44, 1.960 60' --- A4, 4.10's.
13.402 @ 107.65, 2.152 60' --- M6, 3.23's.
12.878 @ 110.15, 1.940 60' --- M6, 3.90's, LT's.

I'm not and have never claimed to be a great driver, but there are much worse out there. I think I ran very respectable numbers for both the A4 and the M6, and I think you can see the consistancy in the car (times, traps, etc.). While there are a couple different variables in there (gears, LT's) I think it's clear it's damn near a drivers' race, stock for stock.

BUT, I have full confidence that with a stall converter, my car could have pulled off a ~12.5 - 12.7, with the 4.10 gears. WITHOUT headers. I think that's the basis of the original post --- whether an auto w/stall can out-perform an M6 --- and IMO, I think so. Even with the low gears, headers, and drag-radials, I think I'll be hard pressed to get a ~12.5 out of my car right now with the M6. SO, for the average Joe, I think that's probably the case, and their buddy with a stalled auto will probably lay a beating on them 9 out of 10 times :cool:.

IMO Manual Cars are much more fun to drive because it has you in control, not some mechanisim that shifts by itself, honestly they both have advantages.

True, the few times I get in traffic in my SS, I hate it and wish I had an auto for the time being!

Yeah auto in my drag car and stick in the 'vette and the wife's SS. Like you I was wishing for an auto in the SS this weekend for 6 miles when we were stuck going 3-4mph on I 270 by St. Louis. I thought my left leg was going to fall off.

My Mustang went from 11.2 to a 10.9 1/4 mile by switching to an automatic. I actually launched much harder with the stick, but the suspension did not unload between shifts, etc... I also went from 124mph to 128mph.
A stick car can be more fun to drive, but the auto took a TON of stress off me at the starting line. :)

Another advantage that a auto has is that on boosted cars you can build boost at the starting line. I picked up a half a second from a switch from 5 speed to C4 auto in my Saleen. With the 5 speed I was coming off the line at 0lbs of boost where with the auto I'm launching at 13lbs of boost.
And Autos can be dead consistant.
I bought a 6 speed T/A but sometimes wish I had a auto.

Most NHRA Pro Stock cars now run this tranny......

http://static.racingjunk.com/1/ui/5/3/6150123285230.jpg

^ ^ ^ What's that ..... a semi-automatic?!?!? :eek: :shock: :confused: (although it looks clearly like a standard?! :shrug: )

Its a fully manual tranny.... no "automatic" at all. But is also shifts without a clutch.

Its a fully manual tranny.... no "automatic" at all. But it also shifts without a clutch.
THAT'S what I was getting at ;). I thought I heard something about clutch-less manuals in racing ..... and when it looked like a manual, but I couldn't believe full-"manual" was being used for pro-stock, that's what made me think "semi-automatic" ;) (albeit, more correctly, clutch-less manual).

A manual valve body can be added to most automatic transmissions which requires the driver shift gears. However no clutch is needed.

A manual valve body can be added to most automatic transmissions which requires the driver shift gears. However no clutch is needed.

Does that include downshifting? wouldn't that tear up your tranny if so?

Stick here :D
With the right trans/clutch combo, a stick will work well at the strip:cool:

---Bill.

Does that include downshifting? wouldn't that tear up your tranny if so?

It isn't the easier configuration for an automatic, but with enough line pressure and enough rpms to match the shift points it will live as long as the tranny is well built.