Was the 4th gen Z/28, really a Z/28? [Archive]

BigDarknFast

11-29-2002, 08:09 AM

quote from Z284ever - Don't tell me that you don't love the slash...or even the occasional bell bottom, (with or without piping) .

Rather than trying to go back in time....on the contrary...I would have really liked to see the last Z/28 as a modern rendition of the original.

Would it have hurt if Chevy made the previous Z/28 a specific and more special package. Special and good looking 17" Z/28 specific wheels would have been a good start. Maybe some badging that cost more than 3 cents would have been good too. Something...anything that would have made it more "special" or at least special at all.

Could I dare ask for something really special, like Brembo brakes...as on the Cobra, Mach 1, 350Z, G35, etc? How about supportive "road race" seats? Standard 1LE pieces? Special gearing?.....I know I may be going over the top here.

Let's face facts....it was the absolute minimal package, at the absolute minimal cost that GM could throw together. It was an austere package, wrapped around the LS1. Not to say that many didn't appreciate it....it just wasn't a modern Z/28. It was the "Camaro LX".

PS

I like your '90 IROC....I have an '89

Z284ever - Happy belated Thanksgiving to you too! Sure, I think the slash was cool. I also think the "Heavy Chevy" moniker on some Chevelles was cool. Nowadays though, such nameplates seem a little outdated. You're a fellow IROC-Z owner (congrats! BTW). How do you feel about that name? I for one am thankful I have a Camaro that stands out from the others thru the years, with its own distinct label and racing heritage. To me the IROC-Z is a very special muscle car, and it has an exact and unmistakable chronological reference point in Chevy and US History. It might shock you but I am glad Chevy chose IROC-Z instead of Z/28 for that car's name. The IROC-Z was a huge success... but again those were different times, with different buying public demographics and average age. My point: I'd rather have Chevy think up a creative new marketing thrust for the next Camaro than go rummaging thru their attic for a retreaded relic (more later on that).

I agree with another poster herein who said the Z/28 and Z28's are the 'street fighter' Camaros. Especially the modern Z28's, which as of today are still the performance kings of the street (you can still buy them new although they are getting hard to find). Quick someone, name another car which is available new today for $22k-25k with 310+ (rated ;) ) hp? Friends, if that isn't true to the original Z/28 with the headers in the trunk, I simply don't know what is.

This stuff about Brembo brakes - a bunch of hooey if you ask me. Why doesn't the Z06 have Brembos? Simple. It doesn't need them. OEM brakes are just fine, thank you, as long as sized right and made with good materials. And the Z06 does come with all-important red calipers :rolleyes:

On the Z28 being a minimalist package, ok. It is without certain frills. So what? It's got the goods under the hood :D And while we're comparing to the almight Mustang, answer me this. Where's the Mustang's:

1. T-Tops
2. Hatchback and folding rear seat for cargo versatility
3. Ergonomic steering wheel-mounted stereo controls
4. Dentproof fenders, doors and hatch?

quote from Doug Harden:Today, we suffer the loss of the entire model due to a nearly complete lack of committment to the car since the late 80's.......and the worst part of it all is that the Z/28 was regulated to the base model V8.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion... but may I make the observation of how incredibly jaded that sounds? Lack of commitment? How about the entirely new body and structure with dentproof panels, with world-class crashworthiness? Retained accessory power, enhanced ergonomics, monsoon stereo with 12-disc factory CD changer operable from the steering wheel? I could go on... but never mind. As for the engine though. How ridiculous it is to call the amazing LS1 a 'base' V8! This pushrod V8, winner of Wards 10 Best Engines of the World, with 310-340hp, stump-pulling torque, low maintenance needs and stellar fuel economy! Go ahead, call it base :rolleyes: I call it King of the Street

quote from ibanez6rgWell by God you better believe they are really Z28s :bow: 4gen Z28

You guys want some theme ideas for upcoming performance Camaros... why not suggest some new ones right here? If nothing else it would help you understand how hard it is to dream up something new. I am working on some theme ideas... will post here in a day or two.

Doug Harden

11-29-2002, 08:37 AM

......the fact that the basic platform has not significantly changed since the first 3rd gen in 1982......20 years of the same platform does not show a commitment to me.......the fact is the body panels, etc...you speak of were a result of GM trying to salvage something from the GM-80 FWD program we almost got stuck with.:eek:

Also, the decision to kill the car came as early as 1997......the last time they actually advertised the car (I also have independent confirmation of this fact).........if it wasn't for the tireless efforts of people like Scott and a few other heros, we would not have had a car past the year 2000....much less be allowed to use the LS1.

Additional options like creature comforts, etc...come more from a corporate movement than individual model enhancement.........the Grand Prix had steering wheel controls by 1997, if not earlier.

While I will agree that the last F-bodies that rolled off the line were the best F-bodies ever they obviously died due to a lack of committment to advancement and future product planning.........IF GM was truly committed to this car we would not be in a hiatus right now. :rolleyes:

So, yes, maybe I was off by a few years by the late 1980's comment.......but not by more than 3-5 years at best.......

PS...The brakes on the f-bodies warp with regularity and of you've ever road raced or autocrosed you'l know these brakes are fine for the street but not nearly up to snuff for track time....I'll keep my BAER PRO+ brakes thank you:D

Z284ever

11-29-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
You're a fellow IROC-Z owner (congrats! BTW). How do you feel about that name?

I didn't like it. In fact it almost prevented me from ordering the car, (I'm the original owner).

I've always thought the IROC racing series was kind of stupid, especially after the first couple of seasons, when they went with tube frame "silhouette" cars.

There was no glory to win in that racing series for the cars or their manufacturers. Racing did not improve the breed in this particular case.

But, what are you gonna do? At least my non-Z/28, IROC-Z, stll had a Z28 emblem on the passenger side dash board ....as did all '88-'90 IROCs... even though Chevy dropped Z/28 for those three years.

Z28Wilson

11-29-2002, 12:53 PM

This was basically the stuff I was responding to:

Originally posted by kizz
If they can tell you with certainty what specific model and year each of those cars is, then buy them a 6-pack and wish 'em Happy Thanksgiving, because they just accomplished a mind-bendingly difficult task!....From 93 to 02 there were pretty much no differences. what, ONE taillight refreshment? different exhaust pipes? That's about it.

The 4th Gens received 1 front clip and 1 tail light restyle over its span. This is the exact number of MAJOR changes that the 3rd Gen received. I don't categorize wheels or changes in sticker location as being major updates. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the help with the 3rd Gen model year pics I posted earlier. I was just going by what it said on the site. :) I think they still help validate my point. I don't know where the notion came in that GM changed its cars both frequently and majorly from model year to model year in the past. Like guionM says, there's a lot of revisionist history floating around here. :p

DaxsZ28

11-29-2002, 01:07 PM

The 4th gen is over with. It's dead. Let's just hope they give us a real Z28 (or Z/28) with the 5th gen comes out!;)

91Zman

11-29-2002, 01:23 PM

geeeze....We still were not talking about yearly changes but if you still want to play that,3rdgens had more exterior changes major or not. :D 3rdgens changes/differences were:nose,tailights,wheels,ground effects,grills,3rd brakelight,rear spoiler,hoods,fog lights and those things told the differences from low/high end models when seeing them from a distance. Anyway no harm no foul we're still fans of the Fbody when it comes down to it :D

Z284ever

11-29-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

On the Z28 being a minimalist package, ok. It is without certain frills. So what? It's got the goods under the hood :D

Actually I don't mind minimum frills. I see a certain beauty in a minamilist approach.

But we shouldn't confuse lack of frills with lack of flair. And the 4th gen Z/28 lacked any flair whatsoever...in the way Chevy imaged it...in the way Chevy presented it....and in the lack of any notable or interesting hardware, other than the LS1 itself.

Like I said previously....it would have made an excellent $22k Nova SS (if it had a bigger rear seat), but fell far short on capturing the elusive mystique that so completely defines Z / 28, and which still so strongly captivates so many of us.

IZ28

11-29-2002, 02:28 PM

Z28 is an RPO, theres no /. :) ;)

Third Gens were changed many times. ALOT more than the 4th Gen thats for sure, and you can tell all the models apart. In the 1st and 2nd Gens it was pretty much the same, you can tell them apart and usually by year too. The 4th Gen Z28, after the SS came along, was reduced to a mid model with nothing going for it but an engine and lower price. In all other Gens the Z28 was the top model with distinct differences and improvements from the rest of the lineup. (engine, handling, braking, and looks) So should have they been called Z28's?? IMO, no. They should have been the RS's. (this is where more engines becomes useful) There should have been no SS and the Z28 should have had an SLP upgrade option something like the IROC option. The IROC option took a Z28 and enhanced it making it an IROC-Z, a commemerative IROC-Z28 for the cars being used in the actual races which inspired better looks and performance. It said, "this is the Z28, the top Camaro and now we're making it better." It didn't take a model name from way back and change/revise what is what and what should be like calling the car SS did, making the Z28 the RS of the later 4th Gen.

And here is real pictures of the 2 different styles of IROC-Z's. As you can see the stripes are different, emblems changed places, door edge guard was changed, and the rims were changed. They also had interior differences too. Especially in 90, which I didn't like too much. :) :D

85-87: http://iroc.fbody.com/images/CAMARO2b.jpg
88-90: http://www.iroc-z.com/1988pages/1988gallery/1988pic15.htm

Doug Harden

11-29-2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
Z28 is an RPO, theres no /. :) ;)

Third Gens were changed many times. ALOT more than the 4th Gen thats for sure, and you can tell all the models apart.

The REAL Z/28's had the slash........you know the 1967 - 1969 models (1967's didn't have emblems, but were real Z/28's none the less)

When GM discovered the cash cow the Z/28 was it began to water down it's mission with automatic trannys and AC...even lost the slash......then it all went to h e l l in a hand basket. :rolleyes:

As far as I can tell, minor trim changes do not a major styling change make.....the 4th gens had the RS ground effects, SS styling changes, etc.....while I'll agree it was minor at best, it certianly rivaled the 3rd gen years for any substantiative changes..........I personally thanks goodness that the 4th gens were not exposed to the stripe and sticker treatment.

To those of us that champion the slash, it is in hopes that the Z/28 will return to it's mission and the rest of the model line up can do what it pleases..........IF we ever get another one that is................

BigDarknFast

11-29-2002, 06:09 PM

quote from Doug Harden: the basic platform has not significantly changed since the first 3rd gen in 1982......20 years of the same platform does not show a commitment to me.......the fact is the body panels, etc...you speak of were a result of GM trying to salvage something from the GM-80 FWD program we almost got stuck with.

Also, the decision to kill the car came as early as 1997......the last time they actually advertised the car (I also have independent confirmation of this fact).........if it wasn't for the tireless efforts of people like Scott and a few other heros, we would not have had a car past the year 2000....much less be allowed to use the LS1.

Additional options like creature comforts, etc...come more from a corporate movement than individual model enhancement.........the Grand Prix had steering wheel controls by 1997, if not earlier.

While I will agree that the last F-bodies that rolled off the line were the best F-bodies ever they obviously died due to a lack of committment to advancement and future product planning.........IF GM was truly committed to this car we would not be in a hiatus right now.

Some homework for you: do a little research on front suspensions for example. 3gen: macpherson strut, with recirculating ball steering. 4gen: SLA, with rack and pinion steering. If those are the same... I have some land to sell you ;)

As for the body panels... I couldn't care less what arcane program they came from... all I know is I am glad to have them. They have not doubt helped contain insurance rates over the years, esp. for things like hail damage.

It was a mistake to let the Camaro adventure lapse like it will soon... but let's not condemn without complete knowledge of future events :)

Doug Harden

11-29-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Some homework for you: do a little research on front suspensions for example. 3gen: macpherson strut, with recirculating ball steering. 4gen: SLA, with rack and pinion steering. If those are the same... I have some land to sell you ;)

I can assure you that I know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions......I just didn't realize that I needed to delve into details when making general comments concerning minor engineering changes to an otherwise unchanged platform. :rolleyes: No-one said they were the same, just a variation on a theme........tell me the difference from the firewall rearward........oh wait, there isn't any.

It was a mistake to let the Camaro adventure lapse like it will soon... but let's not condemn without complete knowledge of future events :)

I can't really comment on this.......what are you trying to say? :confused:

Z28Wilson

11-29-2002, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
......the fact that the basic platform has not significantly changed since the first 3rd gen in 1982......20 years of the same platform does not show a commitment to me...

Hey Doug, I might agree with you but something holds me back. I think we're in agreement that Ford has been committed to Mustang, yet has ridden on basically the same Fairmont platform since what, the late 70's???? Ford knows it's time for a change to a modern platform with the next car, and I think GM knew there couldn't be a 5th Gen built on the current F-body platform and be taken seriously. I'd at least give them credit for that. :)

kizz

11-29-2002, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Just humor me for a second. Here are two pictures of 3rd Gen IROCs. Great looking cars! One is an '88 and one is a '90.

http://www.phoenixgraphix.com/gm/8587iz.jpg

http://www.fedrelandsvennen.no/tema/amcar/joyrides/camaro/90camaro.jpg

Granted the '90 is a convertible but I think you get the point. It's the same car right down to the black hood louvers and wheels.

I realize this was just an honest mistake, and I realize you were corrected already, but it does hint at your lack of knowledge about the third gen. hard for some of you guys to analyze something before you're familiar with it, eh?. Both pictures are 85-87. No 88 or 90 anywhere.

Also I do realize that the third gen camaro got fewer updates than the Firebird, but I can tell you this: Put ANY stock 82-86 Firebird or Trans am in front of me and I can narrow it down to ONE year, guaranteed.
82 - unique wheels, unique interior.
83 - new wheels, new interior, new hood bird
84 - new wheels, new ground effects
85 - total restyling update, whole new look, new wheels
86 - similar to 85, new 3rd brake light mandatory.
87 - total restyle update, whole new look, unique crosslace wheels T/A GTA. only yellow formula among 87-90. T/A is the only 87-90 with the 85-87 huge hood bird option
88 - new style crosslace wheels (till end of 3rd gen). big hood bird discontinued.
89-90 similar to 88, minor color and decal changes here & there
91 - whole restyle, brand new look
92 - very similar to 91
87 - 90 were similar except for some wheel variations and occasional badges / decals, so i can narrow that to within 2 years usually. 91-92 were nearly identical, but not 100% identical. I can't tell those apart usually. Variety slowly died out, starting in the third gen, but even with camaros you can usually tell the year right down to one / maybe 2 years year usually by color, CFI hood and front bumper in 82-83 or lack thereof, front bumper/grill/inserts varies from year to year, taillights varied, so did ground effects, spoiler, decals, colors available etc. You simply don't have as much variety in the 4th gen. Those who claim that the cookiecutter / less models approach is better are just fooling themselves, IMHO.

As far as model differences: put ANY thirdgen firebird or trans am in front of me. I can tell you what model it is, guaranteed.
82-86 - base bird, firebird S/E, and trans am. Each one looks totally unique!
87-92 - base bird, firebird formula, T/A, T/A GTA. each one looks totally unique!
Not my fault the Camaros were more similar to each other, but yeah they were. You can still distinguish any IROC as being unique. Same goes for most base camaros and Berlinettas. Z28/RS is where the most similarity lies, after RS was introduced.

Nobody has disputed my argument on lack of engine choices. Because it's indisputable. I think it was either 83 or 84, there were FIVE, maybe SIX engines available, if I'm forgetting one! Actually yeah it WAS six in 83: Iron Duke TBI (base bird, S/E), V6 2bbl (base bird, S/E), V6 HO 2bbl (S/E only), L69 HO 4bbl (T/A), LU5 CFI TBIx2 (T/A), LG4 4bbl (base bird, S/E, T/A). If camaros are the only thing you know, substitute camaro for base bird, Berlinetta for S/E, Z28 for T/A, and the engine choices were the same, I believe. No third gen year had less than FOUR engine choices. During the 4th gen, it was TWO maximum! just one V6 and one V8 to choose from. cookiecutter.. no thanks.

GT

IZ28

11-29-2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
The REAL Z/28's had the slash........you know the 1967 - 1969 models (1967's didn't have emblems, but were real Z/28's none the less)

When GM discovered the cash cow the Z/28 was it began to water down it's mission with automatic trannys and AC...even lost the slash......then it all went to h e l l in a hand basket. :rolleyes:

As far as I can tell, minor trim changes do not a major styling change make.....the 4th gens had the RS ground effects, SS styling changes, etc.....while I'll agree it was minor at best, it certianly rivaled the 3rd gen years for any substantiative changes..........I personally thanks goodness that the 4th gens were not exposed to the stripe and sticker treatment.

To those of us that champion the slash, it is in hopes that the Z/28 will return to it's mission and the rest of the model line up can do what it pleases..........IF we ever get another one that is................

Only the 1st Gens were real Z28's?? No. The / was stupid, it was just, there. Yeah an Auto and AC, there goes the car. :rolleyes: Maybe if 4ths had stripes and stuff they might have stood out more or maybe had been actually better looking or distinguishable. You know, a racy look, stripes, which have found their way onto musclecars from the start 1 way or another, but not the 4th Gen. Things changed yearly during the Third Gen, even if it was something little. But lets get more into this. Since you say the 4ths changed almost the same amount LOL.

During the Third Gen Camaro, which there were 6 models throughout, there were 3 different bumpers front and back, 3 different GFX, 4 different taillights, 5 different rims, 4 different tire sizes, 4 different styled hoods, 2 different door edge guards, 2 different parking lamps, 4 different grills, 6 different interior looks, 4 different types of spoilers, 4 different transmissions, 2 different axles, 4 different gear ratios, and 10 different engines. There could be some things I didn't list too. The 4th Gen doesn't even come close, AT ALL. They only had 2 significant styles while having the exact same bumpers on all models, 5 years in a row, twice. Lets not even discuss number of engines. ;) Significant Third changes for all models are 82-84, 85-90, and 91-92. And Camaros actually changed more than Firebirds did if you want to get really technical and count every little thing.

Jason E

11-29-2002, 09:43 PM

I agree with kizz...

Third gens were special because EVERY MODEL was special. As a bigger third gen buff than a 4th gen one (despite the fact I own a 4th), I can tell you I can tell a difference with many of them. I can get a model year down to about 2 years with EVERY model pretty much (save for base Firebirds).

For christ sakes, I was so sick of straining my neck when I'd see a 4th gen to find out if it was a base or a Z, when I did buy a Z I made sure you could TELL it was a V8...know what??

In the year 2002, I have to drive a white car with orange stripes so oncoming traffic knows I'm packing more than a 3.8 :rolleyes:

BigDarknFast

11-29-2002, 11:38 PM

quote from Doug Harden: I can assure you that I know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions......I just didn't realize that I needed to delve into details when making general comments concerning minor engineering changes to an otherwise unchanged platform. No-one said they were the same, just a variation on a theme........tell me the difference from the firewall rearward........oh wait, there isn't any.

Incorrect. If you were the historian you claim to be, you'd know that one of the significant design changes from 3gen to 4gen was to reduce body opening sizes, such as the rear hatch and T-top openings, for enhanced body stiffness ( = roadhandling), crashworthiness and NVH reduction. The dual airbags are also aft of the firewall, IIRC ;) Hmm... I don't know exactly where the controller for the state-of-the-art Traction Control System/ABS is placed... maybe its ahead of the firewall... with the digital controller for the engine and electronic automatic transmission, and the body control module providing retained accessory power. :p

T-top stowage was enhanced with the 4gen's... instead of the cumbersome storage bag, the car sprouted convenient notched slots for the tops - which themselves sprouted rubber edges for both a better rain seal and easier handling on hot days.

The only argument you can still leverage now is to squirm around about what constitutes a "major" vs a "minor" engineering change... so go ahead, I'll read your rationalizations with interest. You think a switch from struts/recirc ball to SLA/rack&pinion is minor... umm... OK :rolleyes:

My comment about "condemning without knowledge" sprang from this:
...IF GM was truly committed to this car we would not be in a hiatus right now.

Unless you're some kind of VP at GM with inner knowledge of (1) Who exactly decided to kill the current car's production without having a graceful transition to the next gen (and why), and (2) corresponding knowledge of GM's future plans in the segment, you cannot possibly have a clue as to how committed GM is right now towards bringing Camaro back. Has it occurred to you that perhaps GM is not ALLOWED to build a Camaro right now? (I thought I read somehwere that the CAW contract at St Therese forbids GM from building Camaros elsewhere for a few years).

And this stuff about having a flowing cornucopia of engine choices... it's like walking into a gun shop looking for the best 9mm automatic you can buy. The salesman instead shows you a bunch of junky overpriced 40 cal's from China with a forced grin and says "hey they're pretty much the same." WRONG. And one of the reasons GM has been able to offer a wonderful engine like the LS1 in today's Fbodies is BECAUSE they didn't also have to support a bunch of other variants in their manufacturing, marketing, parts and service (actually most of the real extra cost of option proliferation is in the manufacturing).

As for the 3gens getting a lot of updates:

The 4th Gens received 1 front clip and 1 tail light restyle over its span. This is the exact number of MAJOR changes that the 3rd Gen received. I don't categorize wheels or changes in sticker location as being major updates.

Thanks for the help with the 3rd Gen model year pics I posted earlier. I was just going by what it said on the site. I think they still help validate my point. I don't know where the notion came in that GM changed its cars both frequently and majorly from model year to model year in the past. Like guionM says, there's a lot of revisionist history floating around here.

I agree with this. C'mon... who here really believes... moving a 3rd brake light, or an "IROC" sticker elsewhere on the door is a significant change? I put some pre-88 IROC wheels on my 90 Camaro... it would take a close look by a Camaro historian to figure out what year my car really is.

Z284ever

11-29-2002, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
I think GM knew there couldn't be a 5th Gen built on the current F-body platform and be taken seriously. I'd at least give them credit for that. :)

They get NO brownie points from me.

We should be hearing engineering tidbits and seeing artist's renderings of a 5th gen which is right around the corner now.....just like the Mustang guys.

The fact that we are not, shows a failure to thrive.

BigDarknFast

11-30-2002, 12:43 AM

We should be hearing engineering tidbits and seeing artist's renderings of a 5th gen which is right around the corner now.....just like the Mustang guys.

The fact that we are not, shows a failure to thrive.

Should GM also be struggling to meet profit and quality targets, like Ford is doing? Last time I checked, the goal of a corporation was to make profit, and produce high quality - both of which GM is doing handily.

I believe Camaro's time will return, even if it's not "right around the corner" just yet.

IZ28

11-30-2002, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by Z284ever
We should be hearing engineering tidbits and seeing artist's renderings of a 5th gen which is right around the corner now.....just like the Mustang guys.

The fact that we are not, shows a failure to thrive.

Maybe GM is just really good at keeping secrets. :D :rolleyes:

Z284ever

11-30-2002, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Last time I checked, the goal of a corporation was to make profit, and produce high quality - both of which GM is doing handily.

Two things:

1) My GM stock is worth ONE HALF of it's value from 15 months ago.

2) No official word on a new Camaro.

Z284ever

11-30-2002, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by kizz

V6 HO 2bbl (S/E only),

That's right! I almost forgot about that one.

Doug Harden

11-30-2002, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by IZ28
Only the 1st Gens were real Z28's?? No. The / was stupid, it was just, there. Yeah an Auto and AC, there goes the car. :rolleyes:

It was not "just there".......tell that to the Trans Am racers of the late 60's..........you know, the people the car was built for in the first place.......

We obviously have two different visions of what a Z/28 really is.........oh yeah, the topic of this thread!

I'm old enough to remember the original REAL Z/28's and understood their mission....I'd like to have another REAL Z/28 with the same mission, ala the Z06......therefore I choose to use the slash as a rally flag to champion our cause....you have accepted the current version as it's mission.....but choose to ridicule those of us who have this ferver....so we disagree, no need to get snippy about it.

Maybe if 4ths had stripes and stuff they might have stood out more or maybe had been actually better looking or distinguishable. ..............

This is your opinion....mine is simply the opposite....

Doug Harden

11-30-2002, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

Incorrect. If you were the historian you claim to be, you'd know....
The only argument you can still leverage now is to squirm around ........ umm... OK :rolleyes:

Thanks for keeping this debate at the 4th grade level.......real nice....I didn't attack and ridicule you, how about sticking to facts and leave the personal stuff out of this.

Tha fact is you keep refering to things that have nothing to do with the fact that you can interchange the entire rear suspension from a 1982 model onto a 2002 model and vis-versa....oh sure the rearends are different lengths, but I still wouldn't call that a major design change. To bring up stuff like ABS, RAP, etc....misses my point all together....

The front suspension redesign was by all accounts of those involved, one of the only things (body panels included) that they were able to accomplish after damned near loosing the car after the GM-80 debacle. Was it a welcome change? Of course....

I have had hours of conversations with people involved and have heard them lament the lack of funding commitment from the bean counters during this period. Hell, GM was within weeks of filing for banctrupcy in the late 90's.

Do I understand they did the best they could? Of course!

Does it make me happy? NO.

Do I think they did everything they could to keep the car current and near the leading edge of automotive design and future planning.....of course not.

Do you honestly think Ron Zarrella gave a damn about this car?

Do I think Bob Lutz will turn things around? I sure as heck hope so! Not holding my breath however......

My comment about "condemning without knowledge" sprang from this:

Unless you're some kind of VP at GM with inner knowledge of (1) Who exactly decided to kill the current car's production without having a graceful transition to the next gen (and why), and (2) corresponding knowledge of GM's future plans in the segment, you cannot possibly have a clue as to how committed GM is right now towards bringing Camaro back. Has it occurred to you that perhaps GM is not ALLOWED to build a Camaro right now? (I thought I read somehwere that the CAW contract at St Therese forbids GM from building Camaros elsewhere for a few years).

I've at least done some homework and had numerous conversations with people involved..........and I'll flat out tell you, there is nothing to lead me to believe that the Camaro, as we know it, will ever return. Will GM ever offer another affordable V8, RWD sports car? I sure as heck hope so, but don't hold your breath.

Is performance dead at GM? Of course not! It will simply come in very different flavors than what we had in the Camaro.

After the nasty, personal responses I've endured on this forum for simply having my own opinion I shudder to think of the wrath that GM will have to endure if they ever do bring it back.....

And this stuff about having a flowing cornucopia of engine choices...

I'm guessing this is aimed at someone else......I'll let them fight their own battles.......even though in my opinion your logic is short sighted at best..... I do understand the economics of it, but I don't think it translates into more sales.

:Old tired flame suit on and ready for another round of WWF:

Doug Harden

11-30-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Hey Doug, I might agree with you but something holds me back. I think we're in agreement that Ford has been committed to Mustang, yet has ridden on basically the same Fairmont platform since what, the late 70's???? Ford knows it's time for a change to a modern platform with the next car, and I think GM knew there couldn't be a 5th Gen built on the current F-body platform and be taken seriously. I'd at least give them credit for that. :)

I've NEVER stated that I believe Ford is more committed to the Mustang than GM was to the Camaro.

But let's at least take a look at the facts......

First, the negative.....even Mustang guys tell me they're embarrased by still driving a derivative of the Fairmont platform.

As with the f-body, the bean-counters will squeeze every last penny out of a platform until forced to upgrade by the competition......oh wait, the Mustang has NO current competition.....

Now some of the positive....

Ever seen a CEO of GM star in a commercial extolling the virtues of the Camaro? How it's his favorite car and boy is sure is neat.....

How many engine choices have been available in the Mustang? Lots.

How many body revisions....major body revisions? Plenty.

How many special models are continuing to be churned out? All the while getting better and better at it. Mach 1, SC Cobra, Cobra R, Bullit, Boss are pretty good cars....(I still wouldn't own one though)

Ever had an option of IRS on a Camaro? Sure the first attempt wasn't very good, but the current one seems to be earning some respect.

How about turbocharges and superchargers?

Did the F-body offer things the Mustang didn't? Of course it did.

The point here is not which is or was the better car, but who did a better job of getting the most out of a certian model and who just surrendered in the pony car war.

If nothing else, the Mustang shows that with the right marketing and model planning and future vision, there IS a market for the affordable American V8 RWD sports car.

I do think, however, that the days of simplistic, cheap, high horsepower, drag race warriors is over, due to unaffordable insurance costs and better, more rounded performance cars being built today.

Hopefully, when GM heals from the damage done to it by Zarrella, it too will return to the war and give us something to look forward to.........but wait too long and competitors like the new 350Z, etc...will continue to offer much more for our performance dollar.

BigDarknFast

11-30-2002, 10:46 AM

quote from Z284ever: 1) My GM stock is worth ONE HALF of it's value from 15 months ago.

2) No official word on a new Camaro.

9/11/2001 mean anything to you? That's the reason for the stock. Zarella... prime reason IMHO for Camaro hiatus. As Doug has stated, I am hopeful now that Zarella and his crew are gone.

Z284ever

11-30-2002, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
9/11/2001 mean anything to you?

What a ridiculous statement!

9/11 means plenty to me...as it does to all Americans.

I find the fact that you use it so casually, offensive.

Z28Wilson

11-30-2002, 12:48 PM

Doug I completely agree with your position. Besides the same out-dated platforms Ford has shown more commitment, but this has only come recently. I don't think it's any coincidence that these special edition Mustangs started to sprout right around the time the announcement came that the F-body would die. How long were Mustang enthusiasts begging for more horsepower in the 90's? Now that our cars are gone, Ford is going after us. They want to draw us in and hold us even if GM ever decides to get back into the fight.

IZ28

11-30-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC "It was not "just there".......tell that to the Trans Am racers of the late 60's..........you know, the people the car was built for in the first place......."

I doubt they'd care, the 2nd Gen didn't have the / either.

"We obviously have two different visions of what a Z/28 really is"

No we don't, you only want to acknowledge the 1st Gen Z28's.

"I'm old enough to remember the original REAL Z/28's and understood their mission....I'd like to have another REAL Z/28 with the same mission, ala the Z06......therefore I choose to use the slash as a rally flag to champion our cause....you have accepted the current version as it's mission.....but choose to ridicule those of us who have this ferver"

I don't know where you got that from. Have we not been posting on the same board about these things for a while now agreeing and disagreeing on lots of stuff?? I am guaranteed to be in every post about the Z28 name and its been discussed many times. I do not accept the current Z28, you know, the 1 the 4th Gen turned into a mid model?? I accept it as a special performance option like it was in the earlier years and the top performance model that could do it all in the later years. Its almost the same thing. I would have accepted the 4th Gen Z28 as a Z28 if it was given an SLP upgrade option instead of being called SS. Even if it was called Z28/SS!! It could have had an SLP window sticker or an emblem. But no. Lets devalue our most recognized name and top model.

I too agree that the Z28 should be returned to the top, in ANY WAY. Even if its a Z06 type of car, but for it to be a success it has to have an Auto option and AC!! Its all possible today thats for sure.

:cool:

Z284ever

11-30-2002, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
I've NEVER stated that I believe Ford is more committed to the Mustang than GM was to the Camaro.

Well, I'll say it then: FORD IS MORE COMMITED TO THE MUSTANG, THAN GM IS TO THE CAMARO.

I too, speak to alot of people who would know...and I can't find any indication that a new Camaro is even on the horizon.

Ford on the other hand..............

IZ28

11-30-2002, 04:56 PM

Definetly. But it wasn't always like that until a ways into the 4th Gen. They just acted like they didn't care anymore. They also seemed to refuse to listen to what the buyers want. F**d changed that about themselves and I hope GM can too.

BigDarknFast

11-30-2002, 07:17 PM

Z284ever - Well it appears I offended you, if that's the case my apologies. Clearly the date was tragic for many people, certainly there was no intent to be obtuse about that. I was trying to make the point that most people realize a lot of stocks were impacted and continually today are also impacted by that day's events. My only intent with the statement was that it seemed you were ignoring the day's impact on financial markets and stocks. I hope you will accept my apology.

Doug Harden - What exactly do you expect to see posted here, when you post anti-GM diatribes on a Camaro enthusiast site? Especially when you make generalized claims with no basis in fact about design changes over the years. If you're bitter about the Camaro production hiatus, fine, you have every right to post here. But I also have a right to challenge your opinions, and your own credibility if warranted - which it clearly is from your statements herein. You stated:

I can assure you that I know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions......I just didn't realize that I needed to delve into details when making general comments concerning minor engineering changes to an otherwise unchanged platform. No-one said they were the same, just a variation on a theme........tell me the difference from the firewall rearward........oh wait, there isn't any.

The statement is simply incorrect IMHO. There's more to a "platform" than the floorpan and rear axle! The platform includes the entire load-bearing structure, suspension assemblies, drivetrain and nowadays controller architectures as well. In fact, the rear axle you seem so obsessed and bitter about is one of the few things that have NOT been changed much since the 3gens. The FBody platform changed drastically from 3gen to 4gen, and it cost GM many millions of $$$ to make it happen. The 4gen unibody is much enhanced, evidenced if nothing else by the changes needed to add the dentproof body panels. Who cares if they are from GM80? They are a good innovation and stand proudly alone.

Maybe you truly do "know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions". It just does not appear so from your statements herein. I'm still flabbergasted at anyone who makes such a claim but scoffs at the front suspension improvements from 3gen to 4gen and thinks of them as tweaks.

All site members are entitled to vent about their frustrations with the Camaro production hiatus... but people posting that should not be surprised to see an opposing view on a site like this. I love my Camaro and Firebird. I'm glad I have them. I'm not bitter with GM about ceasing production, since the cars are still readily available, new and used, and are a blast to own and drive. :)Regardless of the heresay quoted on here, I'm going to keep the faith RedPlanet has given us, unless/until he says otherwise. Z28, Z/28, whatever!

Do I think they did everything they could to keep the car current and near the leading edge of automotive design and future planning.....of course not.

I disagree completely with this statement. GM did in fact insert every possible new technology they could into the cars over the years, but still managed to keep them affordable throughout. ABS; RAP; dual airbags; OBD-II; modern crashworthiness; low-maintenance powerplants; factory CD changers and ergonomic controls; digitally controlled and integrated engines and transmissions; the list goes on and on, for those of us not too jaded and bitter to see it.

StreamlineZ28

11-30-2002, 07:56 PM

who cares
i dont car what they called it the 4th gen was an awesome car
lets just hope they bring back another camaro and i dont care what they call it as long as it starts with camaro
why not just say it isn't a real Z28 cause it didn't have a 302 this is a dumb thread

transam8

11-30-2002, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Z284ever
Well, I'll say it then: FORD IS MORE COMMITED TO THE MUSTANG, THAN GM IS TO THE CAMARO.

I agree 100%. Ford is doing a fine job of marketing a very dated platform. These special additions (Mach 1, Bullet, etc) are garnering a lot of interest for the Mustang. It also helps that they have some value, and aren't just stickers and stripes as well. Just on a side note, you gotta have the slash. It's Z/28 :cool:

-Mike

BigDarknFast

11-30-2002, 11:10 PM

who cares
i dont care what they called it the 4th gen was an awesome car
lets just hope they bring back another camaro and i dont care what they call it as long as it starts with camaro
why not just say it isn't a real Z28 cause it didn't have a 302 this is a dumb thread

Amen to that! :D

Z284ever

12-01-2002, 12:01 AM

BigDarknFast....

Apology accepted, we're fine, let's move on....

Z284ever

12-01-2002, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by StreamlineZ28

why not just say it isn't a real Z28 cause it didn't have a 302 this is a dumb thread

It doesn't have to have a 302 to be a "real" Z/28. But a Z/28 is MUCH more than just a great motor like the LS1....MUCH MORE!

As far as being a dumb thread.....I think just the opposite. This is exactly the sort of topic for a forum like this. In fact to be perfectly honest...I don't think that I can think of a more appropriate topic to open up for discussion here.

Doug Harden

12-01-2002, 09:00 AM

...that they could have done better, much better with the f-body?

BN&F, I'm only "bitter" (as you so love to point out) about why the car was allowed to become a dinosaur......have you read any of the magazine articles in the last few years? They ALL agree with my stance. Sure it was fast, some even thought it was a great value, BUT it also was too big, too heavy, long doors, solid axle, hump, cheap switch gear, squeeks and rattles, great motor, but a tired old package, etc......

Am I anti-GM? Oh h e l l no!! I live and breath Camaro....I've been a club officer including Pres. of my local Camaro club for 10 years. I've owned more than 10 Camaros......I'm as active as anyone I know in the hobby...short of Scott. I've been interviewed in countless newspapers and other media about the Camaro. I personally consider myself one of it's biggest fans.

Does that mean I have to be happy about the situation we now find ourselves in? Oh h e l l no!! Would it make you happy if we were all GM yes men? You have said that instead of complaining, we should offer ideas as to how to make a better car.......I have! There's a few of us that have tried endlessly to promote the idea of a new Z/28 built with the same mission it started life as and in the model of the Z06......only to have to spent countless posts defending the use of the original slash, instead of having them understand WTF we're trying to say. We've discussed ad nauseum a proposed model line-up..........so we've tried.

BTW, did you see the press release for the C5R motored GMPD Camaro Z/28 shown at Woodward? They also used the slash....so they get it too!!

Part of my "bitterness" stems from my knowledge of what transpired with the Camaro in the last five++ years. I'm also "bitter" about why they rest of the world is passing us by with better cars.

Think about it........the Camaro is the PERFECT car to have showcased what GM can really do. The Corvette is in small company, so it doesn't really equate here.....

In much the same way they developed the CTS, the Camaro could and should have been a world class car.......not kept in the "boy racer" class.

I've made the comparison to the new 350Z a few times.....I've had the opportunity to crawl all over one and even spent time on the track mixing it up with one.......and I have to tell you, if it had an LS1 it would not have an equal. Cast alum. suspension arms, IRS, world class brakes, 3,200#, world class handling, etc......and it still only cost what a 2002 SS did....around $35k for a track model.

So......am I bitter? Not in the way your $0.02 analysis describes me.....but I also know we could have had a MUCH better car and it COULD have been one of GM best sellers....and not been just good enough.

As much as it pains me to say this....and the more I think about it, the name Camaro might just carry too much baggage to ever return successfully.....it really does carry the risk of creating too much negative reaction to anything that cannot possibly satisfy ALL of the past Camaro owners.......not fast enough, not drag racer friendly, of course most will hate the styling (they always do...until they see one that is)....or it's still the same car that failed the first time.

GM might well do better by introducing a real world class car and letting the Camaro name R.I.P.......of course I really hope this can be proven wrong..........

Either way, if you're happy to be a cheerleader for GM and think they really did everything they could to make the Camaro as good as it could be........and believe this will help GM to build us a world-class Camaro........then I've got some swamp land to sell you.

BigDarknFast

12-01-2002, 11:18 AM

Doug H - Well you certainly deserve props for your contributions to the hobby. I imagine it does take a lot of time to be President of your club, do the interviews and so forth. You could not have helped but expand the hobby and spread the word with all that work. It's great that you are that involved with the Camaro and it's clear you do care a lot about it. Plus I can tell there is a lot you admire about the car, such as when you pointed out that the 4gens were the best ever of the Camaros. I have no intent to dispute any of that -- and agree with you in your disappointment about the hiatus. It is a bummer and a clear mistake by GM.

I guess though, we are essentially of two different phiilosophies about GM. Yours, stuck in the past, looking around in disillusionment and anger at mistakes already made and thus now unchangeable for all time. Mine, hopeful of the future and looking for ways to help GM find the path to a new and even more successful Camaro. It's not anti-GM to say they could have built it better. But it is anti-GM to say some of the other things... and while you have every right, I disagree with them.

I'm only "bitter" (as you so love to point out) about why the car was allowed to become a dinosaur......have you read any of the magazine articles in the last few years? They ALL agree with my stance. Sure it was fast, some even thought it was a great value, BUT it also was too big, too heavy, long doors, solid axle, hump, cheap switch gear, squeeks and rattles, great motor, but a tired old package, etc

I hold all magazine reviews at arms length anymore. Car&Driver... with its eternal love for all things Honda and BMW... Road&Track... with its obvious bias against domestic makes... and so on. I stopped caring what Car&Drivel thought of my Fbodys in 1999 when their test driver for a review/comparo article said of the stunning 30th Trans Am, with its gorgeous blue-tinted 17X9 wheels and pavement-ripping LS1, "I wanted to hang out a sign saying 'not my car'!" :mad: Maybe that's part of your situation... in all these interviews with the media, you're becoming infected with their cynicism and bias. You see, it's fashionable to be "worldly" and put down American cars... even though the quality gap now is negligible and the long-term reliability gap is attenuating monotonically to zero as well.

So "some even thought it was a great value". How about naming a car with more performance per dollar than the Z28 available today? Can't can you? That's because it's the BEST performance value anywhere, bar none. Too big and heavy? Then the sprightly Celica GT will be juuusst right for you. :rolleyes: Don't forget a sizeable exhaust tip for "the look". I see the "squeeks and rattles" myth is getting trotted out again, even though the 4gen structure is tight as a drum and neither my 99 Formula with 38k potholed-Detroit-miles nor my 2002 TA with 4k had a single peep. This "tired old package" humbles other cars every day on streets all over the USA. :)

In much the same way they developed the CTS, the Camaro could and should have been a world class car.......not kept in the "boy racer" class.

This is unnecessarily negative. I know several older guys with Camaro's or Firebirds... does that make them "boy racers"? The Fbody is a value-oriented performance car... how do you propose avoiding the connotation in our society. Are you saying then that people don't also see a "boy-racer" when they see an overdone Accord or Civic with loud exhaust and ground effects? From what I've seen, many people pointing fingers about a car being "boy-racer" secretly wish they were driving something a little more sporty themselves (obviously I'm not referring to you!).

I've made the comparison to the new 350Z a few times..... if it had an LS1 it would not have an equal.

You see... that is the key. It does not have an LS1! The 350Z is a pretty nice car... but here's some other things it doesn't have like the FBody does:

1. Rumbling, melodious V8 exhaust note :)
2. Good looks while wearing fat drag radials on the rear
3. T-tops
4. Ergonomic steering-wheel stereo controls (it does have some tiny buttons, but IMO they are too small for gloved hands).
5. Dentproof fenders and doors (for that matter, ANY dent protection at all on those panels!)
6. Folding rear seat (oh wait! NO rear seat at all!)
7. Roomy rear hatch area for cargo

the more I think about it, the name Camaro might just carry too much baggage to ever return successfully.....it really does carry the risk of creating too much negative reaction to anything that cannot possibly satisfy ALL of the past Camaro owners

Surely you have heard of 'self-fulfilling prophesies'. I believe that a lot of carping and moaning by people posting herein about how many things are/were wrong with the Camaro could have an effect on it coming back. I think we should spend a little more time here saying what we do like about these cars, instead of being negative. If we tell GM "don't like this, didn't like that" it is not as informative as "THIS, I like!" "That, I want and need!". I disagree that the Camaro name has too much baggage to return. I believe that for most people it means "performance at a value price" and "stylish 2+2". There will always be a small fraction of consumers who react negatively to a name. Let them buy Celicas.

or it's still the same car that failed the first time

I disagree with this completely. You think the Camaro failed? Why? Because it's not in production anymore? If so here are some other 'failures' for you:

Dodge Charger Daytona
Torino GT 428 CobraJet
Hemi 'Cuda

All supreme performers, all loved still today by their owners, all a resounding success in my book. Oh wait - forgot one:

Z/28 Camaro

The Camaro was, is, and will be a world-class car when it returns. :)

Actually, I AM happy to be a cheerleader for GM. I do believe it will help GM deliver a newer and better Camaro in the future, and that they did a fine job of making the current one the best it could be. And no, I'm not interested in buying your land. :p

Sunset Orange Met. 2002 Trans Am, DF Lid, FRA, K&N (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/sunsetTransAm/index.htm) | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, 3.5 Pulley, DHP_PCM, transcooler (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/GTPrix/index.htm)
| Brilliant Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, K&N, Camaro SS takeoff muffler (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/red90iroc/index.htm) | NBM 99 Formula, SOLD in Aug. 02. (http://www.mwshowgo67.com/formula99/index.htm)

Doug Harden

12-01-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Doug H - Well you certainly deserve props for your contributions to the hobby. ......

Thanks......

I guess though, we are essentially of two different phiilosophies about GM. Yours, stuck in the past, looking around in disillusionment and anger at mistakes already made and thus now unchangeable for all time. Mine, hopeful of the future and looking for ways to help GM find the path to a new and even more successful Camaro. It's not anti-GM to say they could have built it better. But it is anti-GM to say some of the other things... and while you have every right, I disagree with them.

It is not being "stuck in the past" to attempt to drag GM kicking and screaming into the future....quite the opposite.

I guess I've been around long enough (45+ years) and talked to enough people on the inside to know that you are fighting a corporate culture that looks at stockholders and lawyers first and car designers and engineers somewhere further down the food chain......and as long as people are happy campers they will continue down the path of building cars just good enough. Withness the Cavalier....the imports have kicked GM's @$$ for waaaay too many years and we still don't have a replacement. I think you also need to realize that I am not condeming the people involved with the Camaro...the one's I know are some of the most dedicated people in big business that I've ever met....but this is the kind of corporate culture that keeps them from doing better. So I definately am not anti-GM, but anti-greed. Of course I know they are in the business to make money, but the car companies that build better cars also make money. GM is loosing passenger car market share directly because of this culture that looks at short-sighted, short-term profit and not long term survival...(BTW, this is what my friends on the "inside" tell me and not just conjecture)...you'll notice that GM isn't exactly rolling in the dough these days......

I hold all magazine reviews at arms length anymore. ....... Maybe that's part of your situation... in all these interviews with the media, you're becoming infected with their cynicism and bias. You see, it's fashionable to be "worldly" and put down American cars... even though the quality gap now is negligible and the long-term reliability gap is attenuating monotonically to zero as well.

Like it or not, the peole who write the magazines do shape public opinion and are much more intimately involved and exposed to all makes and models of cars than we can possibly be. Heck, I think they're idiots too......but I also think 99% of the buying public are morons....How many times have people said to you.."I thought they quit making those cars years ago"....happens to me with regularity. Or how about the timeless comment "Oh Camaros are horrible in the snow, I wouldn't want one of those". I personally know of numerous dealers here in Indiana that will flat tell you "I don't care if I ever sell another Camaro" (ever tried getting dealers to sponsor a Camaro event? I have, most just blow you off). Talk on most import (read young people buying rice) boards and they all use the "mullet wearing, redneck" label when refering to f-bodies....of course I consider the source, but this is the impression they get from everything they read and see....you have to keep new people coming into showrooms and buying Camaros to be able to to continue building them (but it's too late for that thought anyway)....so like it or not (and I'm on your side here) magazines & TV do heavily influence the buying public.

So "some even thought it was a great value". How about naming a car with more performance per dollar than the Z28 available today? Can't can you?

News flash The F-body is not available any longer. Other than a few straglers left over, you can't exactly go in and order a new one.......

......I know several older guys with Camaro's or Firebirds... does that make them "boy racers"?

I hope not! I'm old!! But ask anybody walking down the sidewalk what thier impression of a Camaro is.....usually it's not exactly that flattering.

My use of the term "boy racer" was not meant to be taken literally.....but 90% of the un-informed public sees our cars as loud exhaust, fat tired, street racing malcontents. Do I think that is fair? Of course not......but ask around to some of your non-car friends and you'll see. (disclaimer....of course there are exceptions, but I'm refering to the majority of the idiots out there)

You see... that is the key. It does not have an LS1! The 350Z is a pretty nice car... but here's some other things it doesn't have like the FBody does...

You'll notice I used the word IF it had an LS1.

We should probably debate this elsewhere as we've already high-jacked Charlie's thread long enough........but I can also list a lot of things I'd kill for the next Camaro (if we ever get one) to have that the 350Z does have....

Surely you have heard of 'self-fulfilling prophesies'. I believe that a lot of carping and moaning by people posting herein about how many things are/were wrong with the Camaro could have an effect on it coming back. I think we should spend a little more time here saying what we do like about these cars, instead of being negative. If we tell GM "don't like this, didn't like that" it is not as informative as "THIS, I like!" "That, I want and need!".

Accept less and that's exactly what you'll get......you'll never get a great car (notice I still think the 4th gen is a good car) by blowing smoke up GM's bum....the bean-counters will just laugh all the way to the stock-holder's meeting with your hard earned cash....while the rest of the world looks further and further back at them.

I disagree that the Camaro name has too much baggage to return. I believe that for most people it means "performance at a value price" and "stylish 2+2". There will always be a small fraction of consumers who react negatively to a name. Let them buy Celicas.

I'll repeat...unless you don't travel much.....it's not a "small fraction".......but a very large one.....a small fraction would not have turned elsewhere enough times to have GM decide to kill the car. I don't like it either, but it's a fact.

I disagree with this completely. You think the Camaro failed? Why? Because it's not in production anymore? If so here are some other 'failures' for you:

Dodge Charger Daytona
Torino GT 428 CobraJet
Hemi 'Cuda

All supreme performers, all loved still today by their owners, all a resounding success in my book. Oh wait - forgot one:

Z/28 Camaro

Uuuuuuhhhh......those cars are extinct too. Successful??!! Hardly....GREAT cars for their time, sure...but time & the rest of the world passed them by too.......

The Camaro was, is, and will be a world-class car when it returns. :)

On this point....I'll hope you're right! But I'm still not holding my breath..........

Z28Wilson

12-01-2002, 05:09 PM

The thing we're forgetting is that Camaro's mission was always affordable performance. Maybe the better question is, can the next Camaro be quote "world class" while still maintaining some level of "Chevy price" as Scott always says? The 350Z has all of these great things Doug listed like huge brake packages, lightweight aluminum suspension pieces and so forth. It has also pushed the pricetag into the mid 30's, not where the Z28 used to be. Can Chevy find that balance between what we want to see, i.e. awesome performance with modern accessories and pieces, not to mention solid build quality, while keeping the car one of the world's top performance bargains.

Doug Harden

12-01-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
The thing we're forgetting is that Camaro's mission was always affordable performance. Maybe the better question is, can the next Camaro be quote "world class" while still maintaining some level of "Chevy price" as Scott always says? The 350Z has all of these great things Doug listed like huge brake packages, lightweight aluminum suspension pieces and so forth. It has also pushed the pricetag into the mid 30's, not where the Z28 used to be. Can Chevy find that balance between what we want to see, i.e. awesome performance with modern accessories and pieces, not to mention solid build quality, while keeping the car one of the world's top performance bargains.

...you've hit the nail on the head here.

I too have championed the "Chevy Priced" banner and mid $30k to over $40k for a fully optioned WS6 convertible f-bodies are un-reachable for the traditional f-body buyer....much less enticing new buyers to a car that by most accounts is not year-round practical for most people.

However......by the time they might return, the mid$30k price range might be as affordable as today's mid $20k range.......

BTW, I think the 350Z actually base prices in the high $20k's and a fully optioned track model is in the mid $30k's.

The longer GM waits to bring it back the higher the bar will be for performance and quality standards.....and the price will reflect it.

BigDarknFast

12-01-2002, 06:55 PM

Doug H - if you chose the Cavalier to support ridiculing GM, you chose the wrong car...

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0209/17/a01-589344.htm

Cavalier sales are up 16% this year, while the Ford Focus is down 7%, Toyota Corolla down 21% and the Civic is down 6%.

Younger buyers on a budget like the Cavalier for its price, but stylish extras are available. "You can also get a spoiler and CD player. They put a little lipstick on the car," Montgomery said.
Although the Cavalier is far from a profit-maker for a company struggling to make money on small cars and fatten its bottom line, it's a very important one for GM and its dealers.
"Historically, evidence shows Cavalier brings people into Chevrolet," Larson said.
The car is also bringing in customers who might not have previously considered buying a GM vehicle, along with helping to retain those turning in a leased vehicle.
"They're staying with Chevrolet and GM," Larson said.
Small cars, while not moneymakers, are important to automakers in meeting federal fuel economy standards, according to Hall.
The combination of a freshened design and competitive pricing will help Cavalier hang onto its long-running success, said Satterlee of Holiday Chevrolet.
"Cavaliers always sell well. There's never been a down period."

I guess I've been around long enough (45+ years) and talked to enough people on the inside to know that you are fighting a corporate culture that looks at stockholders and lawyers first and car designers and engineers somewhere further down the food chain......and as long as people are happy campers they will continue down the path of building cars just good enough.

I haven't been around as long as you, only 43 years... and I don't have a bunch of "insiders" giving me tips. Imagine that... a corporation putting shareholders first! Building cars 'just good enough' to satisfy their customers! Shame on them. ;) GM may be loosing passengar car market share (Where exactly?)... but its not with the Cavalier, not with the Impala and not with the Monte Carlo, all successes in their segments. GM not rolling in the dough? Then how did they manage to eke out more profit than the other domestics this year? It might surprise you a little... some of it is with rapidly improving quality. You see, in manufacturing there is this concept of the "cost of quality". Making and delivering high quality actually SAVES cost, both in the plant and in warranty claims. GM is already reaping these benefits from its quality focus, and from its transition to a manufacturing system much like that of Toyota.

Like it or not, the peole who write the magazines do shape public opinion and are much more intimately involved and exposed to all makes and models of cars than we can possibly be. Heck, I think they're idiots too......but I also think 99% of the buying public are morons...

Magazine writers do have an effect on opinion... but it is much less concentrated nowadays thanks to the Internet and its multitude of info sources (even this site for example!). I do not share your opinion about consumers, at least Camaro intenders. Sporty and performance car enthusiasts are more knowledgeable than other car buyers. Camry and Civic buyers are unlikely to switch to a 5gen Camaro IMHO. Let them continue in their blissful ignorance. Sport import enthusiasts are also unlikely to jump to a 5gen Camaro... the Camaro is not their niche and that's fine with me. Maybe they will go for a Cavalier with a power adder though :)

Camaro no longer available? If you mean they cannot be ordered, you are correct. But I just checked www.gmbuypower.com and found 20 units on lots in metro Detroit alone. I wouldn't exactly call that 'stragglers', that's a significant number of new cars and I imagine it's true in other major US cities too.

This stuff about "boy racers". Has it occurred to you that many buyers LIKE this image? Personally, I get a kick out of pulling up to a light beside a sport import, watching the driver look the other way, seeing the raw fear in their eyes :D I like the image my car has. It's a street fighter, in your face, hanging it all out for the world to see. Eat my hot exhaust, Honda!

Accept less and that's exactly what you'll get......you'll never get a great car

I don't blindly embrace all of GM's cars. I don't buy what is not a good value... for example I don't think the Grand Prix GT is a good value despite its great shape. The GTP on the other hand, is a good value and so is the Z28. How much better a value would a Z28 be if it was instead dressed up with some hi-po brakes and a Z/28 badge? Not much... the essence of the car is its styling, pricing, layout and drivetrain and that is what made it the great performance value it is.

those cars are extinct too. Successful??!! Hardly....GREAT cars for their time, sure...but time & the rest of the world passed them by too.......

So the original Z/28 was not a success? Then why bring it back? This seems like a strange position for someone who "champions the slash" :rolleyes: but I'm going to cut you some slack since I was kind of advocating it myself in my post about Daytona Chargers and Z/28's. It's fine with me if the 5gen Camaro has a Z/28 variant (and I agree that if they do, it should be a scorcher)... but it's also fine with me if they have an IROC-Z 5gen :D

I'm amazed you don't think the Daytona Charger, the Mach I Mustang (coming BACK you know) and the original Z/28 were successes. They were devastating competitors in their day; spawned untold reams of racing folklore; and today are prized collectibles with insane street values, loved and cherished by their proud owners. What on Earth more do you want?

Z284ever

12-01-2002, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

. How much better a value would a Z28 be if it was instead dressed up with some hi-po brakes and a Z/28 badge?

Boy...I can't even leave the house. Looks like you guys have been busy here, today.

If the Z/28 had that plus a bunch of other stuff...it may not be a better value...but it sure would be more Z/28 like!

And really, I don't see the role of the Z/28 as being the low end value leader either.

Sure, I'd like great bang for my buck....but I don't know how desirable or useful it is for Z/28 to become (or after the 4th gen..to remain) the bargain basement model.

After all, Z/28 hunts for prey more elite than Neon SRT.

FilledWithFurySS

12-01-2002, 08:02 PM

Of coarse they were...V8 camaro=Z/28 in GM's eyes....Yet again in GM's eyes the camaro needed to die...Go figure

~Mike

Z284ever

12-01-2002, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

You'll notice I used the word [b]IF it had an LS1.

We should probably debate this elsewhere as we've already high-jacked Charlie's thread long enough........but I can also list a lot of things I'd kill for the next Camaro (if we ever get one) to have that the 350Z does have....

[

I think that would be an interesting discussion. I like the 350Z...but I really like the G35 Coupe.

Drop an LS1 in either one and squint real hard....maybe you can see the next Camaro.

BigDarknFast

12-01-2002, 11:25 PM

The G35 coupe is close to Camaro's niche... yet misses it by a significant margin IMHO. First off, it won't be getting a torquey V8 any time in our lifetimes. Second, it's not a muscle car... just doesn't have the character. Imagine how silly one would look with drag radials on the back. I agree though, that might be the general shape of the next Camaro. I'm kind of hoping for a third door or doorlet on the next Camaro too though... like on the Saturn SC or maybe even two little doors like on the RX8 or the Rageous concept from a few years back.

Z284ever

12-01-2002, 11:38 PM

No doorlets, please, two doors only on a Camaro. I agree that the G35 Coupe is not a muscle car in the classical sense...but it sure does deliver the goods...performance wise.

Of course, if a future Camaro would share some of the G35s attributes...overall size, proportions, modern chassis, good brakes, etc., Z/28 versions would carry a lusty, muscular V8.

Doug Harden

12-02-2002, 12:37 AM

...off this dead horse....but one last comment.....

There are very few people at Chevy that do not think the Cavalier is waaay beyond needing to be replaced...short of the accountants that is. It sells because it's cheap and not a bad value, but it hardly wins in any serious competition to other brands.

At least with Lutz there's hope....witness the Ecotec program.

GM has eeking out a profit larger than the competition is more to do with one of the most agressive marketting programs in recent memory.....The low to no finance charge, no down payment, no payments for months...has been a boon to GM recovering market share....but the effects of which are not always positive. Just as in Charlie's stock loosing value, many analysts also point to extreme depreciation in initial value and the near collapse of the used car values as something that may come back to haunt GM as these new car buyers find themselves in a severe non-equity position in a few years when GM hopes they will want to replace these cars. I guess we'll see.

Finally, I measure success by a car's longetivity....including the ability to stay at the forefront of their class....while I truly revere the cars you mentioned....they were all (except the Z/28) small blips on the scale of automotive history.

You ask "what more could you want?" I say...I want a car that does more than "look good with a set of drag radials"......I am a road racer....one of the main reasons I want the Z/28 to return to it's roots of being a no compromise road racer. I want a car that doesn't get it's lunch handed to it by better designed, lighter, better handling cars on the road course......some even without a "rumbling V8".

I want a car that doesn't weigh in at over 3,600#...even a Z06 is nearer the 350Z's weight at somewhere in the 3,200# range.....I want a car that doesn't have the length of a minivan, but only holds two adults and two very short passengers...I want a car that doesn't hang out over the front wheel centerline by nearly four feet! I want a car without a hump, football field sized dash, hatch that dumps a gallon of water in the rear seat when opened after being wet, a useable trunk, doors that are still too long and heavy and a solid rear axle, to mention a few things.

Is that too much to ask?

Z284ever

12-02-2002, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
.You ask "what more could you want?" I say...I want a car that does more than "look good with a set of drag radials"......I am a road racer....one of the main reasons I want the Z/28 to return to it's roots of being a no compromise road racer. I want a car that doesn't get it's lunch handed to it by better designed, lighter, better handling cars on the road course......some even without a "rumbling V8".

I want a car that doesn't weigh in at over 3,600#...even a Z06 is nearer the 350Z's weight at somewhere in the 3,200# range.....I want a car that doesn't have the length of a minivan, but only holds two adults and two very short passengers...I want a car that doesn't hang out over the front wheel centerline by nearly four feet! I want a car without a hump, football field sized dash, hatch that dumps a gallon of water in the rear seat when opened after being wet, a useable trunk, doors that are still too long and heavy and a solid rear axle, to mention a few things.

Is that too much to ask?

Not too much to ask for at all.

IZ28

12-02-2002, 02:50 AM

Nope not IMO, they've done it before. They used to give the public what they wanted. The 1st Gen Z28's were the most winning SCCA cars in their class with a still unbeatable record. They performed great in all ways and also came with a decieving low ci. engine that managed to take out much bigger engines. They sold better year by year and Z28 sales kept getting higher. (IMO the 1st Gen should have been a few more years than it was) The 2nd Gen I can't really say much about because they were mostly really slow and had little power, but handling improved and the looks of the later years seemed to appeal to people. The early 2nds definetly had performance though before emissions and things would make having a performance car with performance a difficult thing. The Third Gen Z28's and IROC-Z's out handled practically everything in the U.S. throughout the 80's and early 90's, even the Corvette and Porche at times and they still out handle many cars now, including the 4ths. Their ride quality isn't as good though as Thirds are more no compromise. I mean .92 G's stock right from the factory is really something even today, but back then it was incredible. The L98's low-mid RPM 330-345 ft. lbs. of torque was something to talk about and made driving on the street great and fun with an aggressive sound. Reviews said things like "you have to drive 1 to believe it," or "go and buy 1 of these cars" after some testing and really liking the looks and all the attributes. I'd like to see people and magazines liking Camaros in a way like that again, I'd like them to be 1 of the new cars to buy again. I don't see why they can't make the Camaro have some incredible better than most features again that stand out and get noticed making people want to buy them like crazy. Yes the LT1 and LS1 offered nice power and were rated as really good engines also, but you have to have an entire winning combination for a car to be a success. The other Gens did and as many say, the 4ths didn't have this formula. GM seemed to refuse to make a car the public really wanted. The 4th Gens' sales, reviews, low appeal, and hiatus, were an embarrassment to the F-Body and what it had stood for all these years, while the M*****g, a car that still didn't perform as good as the F-Body in any way, sold like double of its sales combined and stayed in production after losing to it years before. And we know that the F-Body was a better car than the M*****g since they were introduced.

A 5th Gen Z28 that would be Z06-like would be a great top model. (it needs an Auto option and AC to be a real seller though) They need to look back at the Camaro's history and see the things that made it successfull throughout the years and bring some of those things back and combine them with a certain amount of new while actually caring and focusing on the car wanting it to be a success and something great. That is how the car will be right and sell like it did and should again.

Chris Ja

12-02-2002, 05:19 PM

Man that was alot of reading. First let me say I am older than dirt and have been around muscle cars since the 60's. I have worked on, raced, built sold and serviced cars since 1970. I have worked for many different car companys from Porsche to AC Cobra To GM and many more in between. I am just letting you know I have been around.
First I would like to say like it or not Doug Harden makes alot of good points. In 1998 GM already knew they were going to kill the F/body. I had left Porsche and went to GM and was talking with a one of the vice presidents. Because of my back round with the import market he wanted to know how GM cars compared with the *** car lines I had worked with. I told him I would tell him if he told me what was going to happen with the F/bodys. I talked for over a hour about the differences between the cars. I found he didn't want to hear what I had to say. All he cared about was profit. I tried in vain to get him to understand the difference in the import market. When it came time to talk about the F/body all he would say is there is no profit in it and they (being GM) were in business to make money. I advised him that they were opening up the market to Ford yet again. Just as they had done with the GN market and Impala. I said that is why you are loossing all your fleet sales ( taxi, police dept ect). He said there was not enough profit in it. This tells you they think in numbers only..
I am not going to get into the debate about being able to tell years other than to say up to the 4th gens you could. I have owned 3 gens of F/bodys.
I can tell you first hand the 4th gen was and is the best all around fbody GM made from a performance stand point. I have worked on driven and raced them all . I still own a 3rd gen and a 4th gen. I love them both for different reasons.
There is so many good things about the Z28/IROC/SS and TA/WS6. Maybe being older and growing up with these cars I look at how improved they are to those of the late 60's and 70's.
I can tell you when working at Porsche I raced 911 there and beat them with my IROC. My IROC is no were near stock. At the same time I have about $28000.00 in my IROC from when I got it new. The Porsche cost $75000.00 to $85000.00. My point being GM can build a car to compete with the imports for alot less money.
I can say alot more but the bottom line is I want the F/boby to return. If not I guess I will keep the two I have and my next ride will be a Cobra. I never thought I would say that.

Ken S

12-02-2002, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

You ask "what more could you want?" I say...I want a car that does more than "look good with a set of drag radials"......I am a road racer....one of the main reasons I want the Z/28 to return to it's roots of being a no compromise road racer. I want a car that doesn't get it's lunch handed to it by better designed, lighter, better handling cars on the road course......some even without a "rumbling V8".

thats what i'm hoping for if there's a future camaro.. Moving away from "trim level" and towards "performance hardware".. Should be a car that feels more at home slicing thru the roadcourse than rounding blocks in suburbia... And make it fast lap after lap! so brakes that don't fade and power steering pumps that don't boil over at least...... and when you get it right, don't try to fluff it up...

I want a car that doesn't weigh in at over 3,600#...even a Z06 is nearer the 350Z's weight at somewhere in the 3,200# range.....I want a car that doesn't have the length of a minivan, but only holds two adults and two very short passengers...I want a car that doesn't hang out over the front wheel centerline by nearly four feet! I want a car without a hump, football field sized dash, hatch that dumps a gallon of water in the rear seat when opened after being wet, a useable trunk, doors that are still too long and heavy and a solid rear axle, to mention a few things.

Hhe, funny enough though, some of these traits I find endearing to my 4th gen Camaro. I wouldn't mind if these "endearing traits" disapeared in the future model.. but pesonally, thats what makes my 4th gen unique in my mind...

I actually like long heavy doors.. Sure they are impractical, but I think they are neat.. now if they only made a solid thump when they closed with the window down.....

Are 4th gen really that much of a performance slouch? I thought they were even faster than 3rd gens in all areas.....

IZ28

12-02-2002, 05:53 PM

Just being fast, in a straight line, isn't the most important thing. It has to be a great car all around with a great drivetrain also.

And Ja, I'm looking for your exact IROC-Z, LOL, in bright red with grey int. though. :D

BigDarknFast

12-02-2002, 07:12 PM

quote from Doug Harden: Finally, I measure success by a car's longetivity....including the ability to stay at the forefront of their class....

...So... according to your yardstick, isn't the Cavalier a success?

You ask "what more could you want?" I say...I want a car that does more than "look good with a set of drag radials"......I am a road racer....one of the main reasons I want the Z/28 to return to it's roots of being a no compromise road racer. I want a car that doesn't get it's lunch handed to it by better designed, lighter, better handling cars on the road course......some even without a "rumbling V8".

I want a car that doesn't weigh in at over 3,600#...even a Z06 is nearer the 350Z's weight at somewhere in the 3,200# range.....I want a car that doesn't have the length of a minivan, but only holds two adults and two very short passengers...I want a car that doesn't hang out over the front wheel centerline by nearly four feet! I want a car without a hump, football field sized dash, hatch that dumps a gallon of water in the rear seat when opened after being wet, a useable trunk, doors that are still too long and heavy and a solid rear axle, to mention a few things.

Well I will grant you this, you are saying (in a negative, roundabout way) what you DO want. And IF all the current Camaro had to offer was "looking good with drag radials" then I agree that would be damning praise indeed. But it amazes me that people are so jaded as to not appreciate the roadhandling of the current Camaro. You'd think from this discussion it was a top-fuel rail dragster with tiny front tires :rolleyes: How then does it achieve higher roadholding (.84g vs .83g) and shorter 70-0 stopping (188 ft vs 196 ft) than the supposedly new-age Acura RSX Type-S (data, believe it or not, from Car & Drivel!). I could go on... but we all know, the current Camaro is the best ever and is STILL TODAY a tremendous performance value! Let's look at some of these other ideas...

"doesn't weigh over 3600 lb"... When you're out shopping, better cross off the new Mustang Cobra with 390 rated hp and the new GTO with 360 rated hp (plus 405 hp the following year).

"doesn't have the length of a minivan"... If size bothers you that much perhaps you are actually a budding sport import fan and just don't know it yet ;)

"only holds two adults and two small passengers"... my Fbody's work fine for our family (Wife, adult-sized child at the wheel, and two little tykes :) ) If it doesn't fit your lifestyle, move along to a nice big sedan like a Marauder (OOPS that would be TOO HEAVY)

"hanging out over front wheel centerline by four feet"... I'm not a fan of big overhangs either... but IMHO the overall styling and chassis strength more than make up for this issue. BTW you will never be happy with a Daytona Charger :D

"floor hump, dash, hatch I don't know how to open without spilling water"... all this suggests, is that maybe the car is not for you.

"useable trunk"... you mean a cargo area that holds hundreds of pounds of lumber like this?

http://www.mwshowgo67.com/formula99/utility.htm

(Try that in a Mustang!)

"doors too long".... well here's the car for you:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/echo/

"solid rear axle"... then DO NOT buy one of these:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/glance/index.asp#Mustang_Mach_1

So there you go... it's not too much to ask, even today. I hope these simple guidelines help you find a car you can be satisfied with.

WERM

12-02-2002, 07:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigDarknFast

...So... according to your yardstick, isn't the Cavalier a success?

Not if they lost $2,000 on every one they sold! :p

You'd think from this discussion it was a top-fuel rail dragster with tiny front tires :rolleyes: How then does it achieve higher roadholding (.84g vs .83g) and shorter 70-0 stopping (188 ft vs 196 ft) than the supposedly new-age Acura RSX Type-S (data, believe it or not, from Car & Drivel!).

Drive both of them. Then come back and tell us which feels more nimble. Sure the Camaro has high limits, but below those limits and at slower speeds it feels like a BOAT.

"doesn't weigh over 3600 lb"... When you're out shopping, better cross off the new Mustang Cobra with 390 rated hp and the new GTO with 360 rated hp (plus 405 hp the following year).

Imagine how great they would be if they weighed in at 3200 lb. :eek:

"doesn't have the length of a minivan"... If size bothers you that much perhaps you are actually a budding sport import fan and just don't know it yet ;)

All that wasted space doesn't bother you? Who wants a performance car with wasetful (and heavy) overhangs and a size longer than most family sedans. 4 words: Smaller, Lighter, Faster, Cheaper. That's what we need. An affordable Camaro that is true to its roots, but also capable of winning over a new generation.

"useable trunk"... you mean a cargo area that holds hundreds of pounds of lumber like this?

Hatchback > Trunk

"doors too long".... well here's the car for you:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/echo/

[i] Kinda harsh. They did have the longest doors of any car sold in the US. Kinda tough to own in the city.[/]

BigDarknFast

12-02-2002, 09:08 PM

"Not if they lost $2,000 on every one they sold!"

According to the criteria offered, the Cavalier is a success. GM tolerates the lack of profit for the sake of gaining young buyers who will hopefully trade up.

"Drive both of them. Then come back and tell us which feels more nimble. Sure the Camaro has high limits, but below those limits and at slower speeds it feels like a BOAT."

The Camaro is precisely 8 ft more nimble than the new-tech Acura when stopping from 70. As for boatlike, which was more boatlike, the Mustang Bullitt completing Motor Trend's slalom at 63.4 MPH or the WS6 Trans Am doing it in 64.6?

"Imagine how great they would be if they weighed in at 3200 lb."

Seriously, how many really care about 170 lb when they have 310+ hp under their right foot (Firebird Formula weighs 3369 lb).

"All that wasted space doesn't bother you? Who wants a performance car with wasetful (and heavy) overhangs and a size longer than most family sedans. 4 words: Smaller, Lighter, Faster, Cheaper. That's what we need. An affordable Camaro that is true to its roots, but also capable of winning over a new generation."

Camaros have been living large (ie about 185-195 in. overall length) since 1967... again, who's counting a few inches? BTW the current Camaro is shorter than today's Impala and Taurus. Are you saying that being 9 or 10 in. longer than the current (stubby-looking IMHO) Mustang is what killed the current Camaro?

"Hatchback > Trunk"

On this I agree! I hope the next Mustang has a hatch... although I doubt it will.

"Kinda tough to own in the city."

Simple solution: MOVE OUT of the city :D

Doug Harden

12-02-2002, 09:59 PM

BD&F,

I almost thought we were having a rational, adult debate...after you left out the personal attacks...but you seem to not be able to comprehend that a better car is all we are hoping for.......you insist on rude little flimsy arguments just to get in the last word...logic be damned.

I love my 1994 Z/28.....but I'd love to hope that the next gen won't be a 20 year re-run like the last one.....

Have fun...I'm done here.......BTW, you're wrong......on all counts.

Z284ever

12-02-2002, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

"doesn't have the length of a minivan"... If size bothers you that much perhaps you are actually a budding sport import fan and just don't know it yet ;)

[/B]

The size of the current Camaro doesn't bother you at all?

If it were even bigger, would that bother you?

BDnF, I have to say....if GM could only find another 150,000 or so guys like you per year...they'd never have to modernize the Camaro.

Z284ever

12-03-2002, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Can Chevy find that balance between what we want to see, i.e. awesome performance with modern accessories and pieces, not to mention solid build quality, while keeping the car one of the world's top performance bargains.

This is an interesting point. How exactly do you quantify a bargain?

To me a 4th gen Z/28, on a 20 year old platform, with interior material quality barely comparable to Neon and woefully outdated styling and proportions.....is NOT a bargain at $25K.

Maybe it's a bargain at $18K...but I still wouldn't part with the $18K for it.

Now, if we had a new Z/28, with all the things that Doug mentioned on the 350Z, and with a thumpin' V8, for $30K....I'd call that a screaming bargain.

Z28Wilson

12-03-2002, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Z284ever
To me a 4th gen Z/28, on a 20 year old platform, with interior material quality barely comparable to Neon and woefully outdated styling and proportions.....is NOT a bargain at $25K.

Maybe it's a bargain at $18K...but I still wouldn't part with the $18K for it.

I think you're being pretty harsh. Is the Mustang GT any better of a bargain at maybe 23 or 24 grand, but with a decidedly inferior powertrain, similar interior quality, same outdated chassis and comparable overall quality?

The dilema here is not to build a modern Camaro that performs well at a 350Z-like price. There's already a lot of cars out there that perform well in the mid $30,000 range. One of the biggest attractions of Camaro to me, and probably to many others, is that it could always do what most of the other players in the market do but it does it cheaper.

Z284ever

12-03-2002, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
I think you're being pretty harsh. Is the Mustang GT any better of a bargain at maybe 23 or 24 grand, but with a decidedly inferior powertrain, similar interior quality, same outdated chassis and comparable overall quality?

Well, at least they throw in a nice set of wheels.....

The dilema here is not to build a modern Camaro that performs well at a 350Z-like price. There's already a lot of cars out there that perform well in the mid $30,000 range. One of the biggest attractions of Camaro to me, and probably to many others, is that it could always do what most of the other players in the market do but it does it cheaper.

On this we are in complete agreement! I want all of those things ..but at a Chevy price.

But a Chevy price alone...without any of those things...is no bargain at all to me.

BigDarknFast

12-03-2002, 09:37 PM

Doug H - I have no issues with you, instead just challenged your positions taken on the Camaro. If you are offended, then my apologies... I was hoping you could take a joke, guess that's the problem with the Internet.

I agree there are things needing updating on the Camaro. As I said, I'm not a fan of long overhangs for example. It's good for Camaro fans to point out what needs improved. But can't we also celebrate the good parts of the Camaro without being called petty names like a "yes man"? Speaking of immature....

My mentions of the Marauder and Mach I... were to highlight the apparent impossibility of pleasing certain buyers. You guys are an incredibly demanding bunch... I suppose that is good, it improves the car; but I believe reality also has a place here. If the next Camaro gets much below 3200-3400 lb, it will either end up with no back seat (NO LONGER a Camaro then, IMHO) or it will be so tiny it will resemble a WRX coupe. Both prospects make me say "ugh". What's a GM decisionmaker reading this supposed to conclude, if a bunch of unrealistic constraints are listed without careful thought? Or if apparent Camaro fans have nothing but negatives for the car? Camaro a 20-year rerun? I don't think so.

Another poster asked my opinion of a larger Camaro. You know what? I like bigger cars. I like having some mass voting on my side in a crash -- and I like a car that feels "hefty" when you're flinging it around corners. It wouldn't bother me a whit if the new Camaro is as heavy as the 2004 GTO! As long as it has the horses to hustle with! :)

I'm not here to prove myself right, nor to get the last word. I just challenge opinions when I see conflicting data or facts. I enjoyed this discussion, seems a shame for it to be over. Peace. Out.

Z284ever

12-03-2002, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
What's a GM decisionmaker reading this supposed to conclude, if a bunch of unrealistic constraints are listed without careful thought?

IF YOU ARE A GM DECISION MAKER READING THIS,AND YOU ARE CONFUSED, LET ME CLARIFY:

Some basic things we want in a new Camaro........

1) Modern Chassis

2) Modern Ergonomics

3) Modern Proportions.....ie, smaller than an SUV

4) High Quality

5) Gorgeous Styling (...also wheels that are not ugly)

6) Chevy Price (Happy, Z28Wilson)

7) AND A Z/28 BEFITTING THE NAME!

......call me with any questions.

Fbodfather

12-10-2002, 03:29 AM

Well, I've been reading thru this thread and got to the point where I said 'enough' and skipped thru the last couple of pages.

While I believe some of you have some of this right, I believe a lot of you (and I know this is gonna sound like a flame) are off base.

Did GM spend enough on the Camaro to keep us all happy? Hell no.

But does it occur to some of you that we live in a different world today than we did back in the "good ole days" of 1967-1972?"

When the original Z28 was engineered and built, the U.S. Government was so concerned about the size of GM and the fact that it could be a monopoly that they threatened to spin Chevrolet off as a separate company. (should they have, I don't know...maybe so...but they didn't and NO ONE is smart enough today to know the answer.......)

Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. Honda built motorcyles. Nissan was Datsun. And there was no Mitsubishi, Hyundai, or many other manufacturers doing business in the United States.

My point is this: We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits (you wouldn't believe most of the frivilous lawsuits we get served with every day!) --- and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks.............think about it....NO, REALLY.....THINK about it! The consumer today has a mind boggling choice of vehicles to drive versus twenty -- or even ten years ago.

Now...to the 4th gen Z28.

--Let's just go beat the hell outta those people at GM that decided to make the 4th Gen Z28 look like the V6!!!!!!!!!

---FORGET THE FACT THAT THIS DECISION WAS A LONG AGONIZING ONE AND THAT THE VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER WON OUT!!!

You see, Chevrolet did a special "California Only" Camaro V6 in the late 80s.....took a V6 and made it look much more like a Z28...and guess what.........sold like hotcakes so much so that the car was released nationwide as the Camaro RS the next year. And when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8.

You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other. Let me assure you that decisions on wheels, interior trims, and styling treatment are always reviewed with a group of owners........................

You know, the problem is that it is hard--- no -- make that impossible--- to discuss the past and the present and hit all the highlights on a website.

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have..........................and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry) And your comment about GM's stock price...have you looked at Ford or Chrysler lately?????

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

One more thought -- it seems that many feel that the car became overpriced.....perhaps so. But I would remind you that we had to put a substantial rebate on the base $18,000 car in order to sell it, yet until the 2001 model year, we did not have to put a rebate on the $30K plus SS model where we could not keep up with demand most of the time....................we eventually did put a rebate on it because GM made a committment to the President of the United States that we would do what he asked: we made a committment to get the economy moving...by putting Zero percent financing across the entire lineup...including Corvette and Camaro SS -- cars that were selling without rebates. (go read a back issue of the Wall Street Journal --look for the article about 'How GM Saved the U.S. Economy)

In closing.....I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks on GM on this board because I believe that most attacks are based on ignorance of the REAL facts taken in context of the larger picture. I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks some of you make on each other. But I guess that it is after 3:00 am and reading this just kinda set me off.

If I have offended some of you, sorry.......but I ask you to look at the bigger picture. And I guess I'm a frustrated teacher....because I try to educate to the realities and it doesn't seem to get through.

Darth Xed

12-10-2002, 08:54 AM

Red,

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to post that much information... (that had to take a while! :eek: )

I have one comment on the Z28 looking like a V6 subject...

Having owned an 89 RS and a 99 Z28, I think I have a good perspective on this:

I think the 3rd Gen California Camaro (I thought that was the 87 RS, which went Nation Wide in 88 as "Camaro" with the (silver) Z28 ground effects, then took the RS name nation wide in 89 (with the monochromatic paint scheme??) Anyway, I think people buying the RS back then viewed it as "getting the Z28 look for the lower price" because the Z28 look had been established from 82-on with the 3rd Gen.... the V6 never had the ground effects prior to that. BUT, Z28/IROC-Z still had the hood and (until 91) taillights, and (after 91) rear wing differences.

BUT, with the 4th Gen, the V6 looked like the Z28 from the beginning.... making feel like the Z28 looked like a V6 rather than the other way around....

I could be wrong, but that is kind of the way I saw it... then when SS came out, it made than even more true, because the SS was 'dressed up' and the Z28 still looked like the V6...

In conclusion, this did NOT stop me from buying my new 99 Z28... but I always had that view of the situation... just wanted to throw that out there and see if you have any feelings on that point of view?

:)

Z284ever

12-10-2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Red Planet

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with.

Hello there RedPlanet! I see I've gotten your attention. You have said so much for me to respond to. YOU KNOW my heart is in the right place, as does everyone else who knows me. From the first time my young eyes gazed upon a new '67 Camaro ( a Marina Blue RS with black vinyl top), in the fall of '66 ,from the back seat of my father's car, I have been a Camaro man.

I wish I had the time to attend some national events...but sorry, I just don't have that kind of time right now...hopefully, I will in the future. You are more than invited to attend some of our local events, however. And believe me Red, you've met ALOT of people that know me...I've got an autographed poster from you, to me, to prove it.

I don't really remember ever saying the 4th gen was embarassing, but I do have my well documented issues with it. Furthermore, I would never degrade an enthusiast's car....I don't think that is very polite.

But forums like this are made for frank talk...rather than politeness....and yes Red, just like you I have an opinion.

..........................and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry) And your comment about GM's stock price...have you looked at Ford or Chrysler lately?????

I don't need to see the grisly under belly of GM...I just need to know if my car is on the way. I'm not blaming you personally BTW. And you're right..I wouldn't let just anyone peruse my office records....but I'd be more than happy to let everyone know that I am open for business.

Is Chevy Camaro open for business? Is there a Grand Re-Opening planned?

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Red, we've gone over this a million times...I think you know where I stand on this. BTW, I have never fully understood why you don't completely revel in our enthusiasm for the Z/28 ...on the contrary,it seems to be a thorn in your side.

Please RP....don't get mad at me and I won't get mad at you. That serves no purpose. I think...from our conversations, that we agree on 95% of things, ( but oh man that last 5%!).

....and remember...you have an open invitation to attend one of the fine events sponsored by the Illinois Camaro Club.

IZ28

12-10-2002, 11:50 AM

Thanks for getting in on this RP. You posting is always a good thing. :) But I'm gonna try to get through to you here and I hope you can understand this enthusiast to enthusiast. I have definetly appreciated your work at times and appreciate you taking time to talk with us here and even answer our E-Mails as you have done for me before. I would hope by now you know I am a real enthusiast, especially being the known "Camaro Dude" in my area. Here we go. :cool:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Planet
Did GM spend enough on the Camaro to keep us all happy? Hell no. But does it occur to some of you that we live in a different world today than we did back in the "good ole days" of 1967-1972?" When the original Z28 was engineered and built, the U.S. Government was so concerned about the size of GM and the fact that it could be a monopoly that they threatened to spin Chevrolet off as a separate company. (should they have, I don't know...maybe so...but they didn't and NO ONE is smart enough today to know the answer.......)

Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. Honda built motorcyles. Nissan was Datsun. And there was no Mitsubishi, Hyundai, or many other manufacturers doing business in the United States.

My point is this: We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits (you wouldn't believe most of the frivilous lawsuits we get served with every day!) --- and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks.............think about it....NO, REALLY.....THINK about it! The consumer today has a mind boggling choice of vehicles to drive versus twenty -- or even ten years ago.

I seriously hope they are with you before a 5th Gen is built so we all don't have to deal with the same issues again. Maybe if there is no Firebird they will allow more?? There might be more choice today but people know what they want and there are alot more than you might think out there that want a new cool Camaro to drive around in, but alot of them can't afford them, which is a problem. There is a market for these cars and you and GM know it, just like there is and always will be a market for B-Bodies and still there is nothing. If some1 sees a Camaro go by or gets a ride in 1 and likes it, they're usually gonna want to buy it, not go look at other cars. That was a car they were interested in, not some other, so really the choices today to me are almost not a factor. But the car needs to be priced for the younger market to be able to buy. There are lots of import/ricer owners that would like so much to drive a real car like an F-Body, especially the top model, but not for its price if you know what I mean??

Now...to the 4th gen Z28.

--Let's just go beat the hell outta those people at GM that decided to make the 4th Gen Z28 look like the V6!!!!!!!!!

We are organizing that plan as you speak. :D It seems that many want to now after we've had a car like this.

---FORGET THE FACT THAT THIS DECISION WAS A LONG AGONIZING ONE AND THAT THE VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER WON OUT!!!

You see, Chevrolet did a special "California Only" Camaro V6 in the late 80s.....took a V6 and made it look much more like a Z28...and guess what.........sold like hotcakes so much so that the car was released nationwide as the Camaro RS the next year. And when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8.

RP, read DXed's post. The Third Gen RS looked like a regular Z28 alot, but there was no regular Z28 in 89 that it had to co-exist with in the car line, and it still did not look EXACTLY like a Z28. I happen to own 1 of these very cars you are speaking of. (Still looking for an IROC-Z :)) All Third Gens are distinguishable. You can easily tell apart an 85-87 Z28, 88 Sport Coupe, and ANY IROC-Z28 or 91-92 Z28 from an RS. With the 4th Gen's you JUST can't do that. Thats where it went wrong. They look exactly that same, a Z28 and a base model, imagine that. Its kinda ridiculous RP. It was never that way before and shouldn't have been then. With the next base model, make it look good in its own way and different from the others, no need to make it look like the top models, let it be cool, just not as cool as the top cars. :D :)

You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other. Let me assure you that decisions on wheels, interior trims, and styling treatment are always reviewed with a group of owners

Whoever this "group of owners" are, I hope they are not used as consultants to the 5th Gen. ;) And lets hope their age is the target age group this time. :)

You know, the problem is that it is hard--- no -- make that impossible--- to discuss the past and the present and hit all the highlights on a website.

RP, this is a place where I can say you are incredibly wrong without question. You seem to have this thing about "well its just people talking on the internet" and you want to talk to people in person about these things. Take my word for it, the internet is exactly where you wanna talk about it and where the people are you should listen to the most and I will explain why.

When you meet people, they want to be your friend and they are gonna almost always tell you what you want to hear, not wanting to get into an arguement or difference in opinion with Mr.S.S. right there in person. And I heard that you are a pretty cool/nice person to talk with. :) Who's gonna want to start something with you and maybe piss off the Brand Manager of their favorite car at a show or something?? Places like this board is where people let out their real feelings and they can do it comfortably, and we have all the time we want to say whatever, not just a few minutes. You are also able to reach owners this way that maybe can't go to shows or don't want to. Either way, in person, people are going to be different to you, here we can say whatever almost as if you were another owner. This is where you can hear what your buyers are really saying from all over the place.

*This is PART 1, it won't let me post it all.*

IZ28

12-10-2002, 11:52 AM

PART 2

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have

Why does he have to come to a show when he can convey his thoughts here with you and other enthusiasts that might or might not share the same opinion?? And I think his statement was more like owning a Z28 is an embarrassment or something about the looks, and I and others agree with him. If he was to talk to you or if you were to talk to me in person, I guarantee we'd still be for the Z28 and a better, disctintive, top model approach no matter how much you tried to convince, it ain't happening, especially not with enthusiasts that know the cars besides owning them.

and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry)

This is another statement that is wrong to me. I ask you, who are the people that bought and supported the Camaro and kept it here for 35 years???? To leave all of those people and its enthusiasts just wondering and not knowing ANYTHING at all isn't right and its not good for business either. Its frustrating, and we should be more frustrated than any other right now because the hiatus is an embarrassment. There are many p****d off at this and GM right now because of this hiatus BS and no information. IF there is a reason you guys CANNOT say anything, then of course there is no choice, but I would almost bet its being greatly exaggerated unless there is something like that Contract keeping you guys from saying anything.

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Like it or not, we are telling you, as 90% of this post and on this board have agreed with and most enthusiasts at car shows, cruise nights, or just regular friends have agreed with me, that we want the Z28 to be either the TOP Camaro again or a separate Special Performance Option that has its own advantages over the rest of the lineup. NEVER again is the Z28 to be an unappealing MID-model. THATS rewriting history. If that is done again in a 5th Gen I will stand outside the dealers everyday and persuade people to not buy those Camaro's myself because its just wrong. Speaking of the 1st Gen, a car that has more power seems like the top model to me, and I don't even know how you can say the SS handled or braked better!! It might have had a bigger engine, but if its slower, doesn't handle and brake as good, what good is it?? We know the Z28 did those things better and it got upgrades over the SS. It looked better, and became the most popular Camaro ever. Do you think we don't know people who have either owned or driven both or aren't those people ourselves?? Is the SS the car that won all the Championships and has the best SCCA racing record?? If you count the 1st Gen Z28 as top model, the Z28 was the real Ultimate Camaro for 26 of those 35 years, if not take away 6 if you wanna say SS was 67-72. Regardless, the Z28 in some form was still the top Camaro for more years and is the most recognized Camaro model of all time. The people who are gonna be in the age group to buy a 5th Gen know Z28, as does ANY1 that knows the Camaro. The SLP enhanced Z28, also known as the SS, would have been fine if it didn't go and completely change the model name and disregard the Z28 and what it meant. And why deal with SLP anyway instead of doing it yourselves?? SLP is a company that alot don't even like because of their customer service and way overpriced products.

Its stupid that GM feels every car should have the same name. "Lets just take away all the names, especially the racy 1's and call them Super Sport, even when theres nothing Super Sporty about them!!" Let the 2 specialty cars be different, I mean is the C6 Z06 gonna have an SS upgrade option LOL?? Or better yet, lets just take away the Z06 altogether and rename it SS, yeah thats it!! :rolleyes:

One more thought -- it seems that many feel that the car became overpriced.....perhaps so. But I would remind you that we had to put a substantial rebate on the base $18,000 car in order to sell it, yet until the 2001 model year, we did not have to put a rebate on the $30K plus SS model where we could not keep up with demand most of the time....................we eventually did put a rebate on it because GM made a committment to the President of the United States that we would do what he asked: we made a committment to get the economy moving...by putting Zero percent financing across the entire lineup...including Corvette and Camaro SS -- cars that were selling without rebates. (go read a back issue of the Wall Street Journal --look for the article about 'How GM Saved the U.S. Economy)

Thats cool and all, but the car was still too much money no matter which way you look at it.

If I have offended some of you, sorry.......but I ask you to look at the bigger picture. And I guess I'm a frustrated teacher....because I try to educate to the realities and it doesn't seem to get through.

Sometimes I think RP that we are not getting through to you. Everytime you post you take the same stance on things we feel you should consider and listen to. If you are gonna be that way about something we care so much about, then we are gonna have another 4th Gen, and if we have another Gen that flops, do you really think GM will get behind another attempt at a Camaro???? Look at the 1st 3 Gens and look at the things that made them successfull. Leave the 4th Gen out of the picture, it was a formula that didn't work, and all of us, including the owners of those cars, do NOT want to see another hiatus again, I CAN assure you of that. I understand how you might feel like you're on the defensive, but think of it this way. If you built a restaurant that had nothing people really wanted, and the prices were pretty high for this stuff no1 wanted, would people want to eat there?? Eventually, it would go out of business. That sounds like a familiar situation doesn't it?? Then after going out of business and wanting to open another in a few years, would you try to do it all over again practically the same way?? I don't think so.

Doug Harden

12-10-2002, 12:31 PM

Hey Scott,

Good to hear from you!! BTW get some sleep! 3:00 in the morning?!?

I think the one main point, those of us who are championing a return to the roots of the Z/28 are trying to make is not that we hold any resentment against the SS…in fact, I believe it did a lot to enhance and even extend the life of the Camaro as we knew it.

In a strange twisted sense of logic, what should have happened in the early 70’s is that the Z/28 should have been the model to be discontinued and the SS left to carry the banner…until such a time as a qualified Z/28 could return to it’s place as a special performance model. Personally, I feel that this would have been more true to the mission statement you provided (and I agree with BTW).

I was the one, back in 1993 at the event here in Indy, that stood up in the banquet and asked, then Chevrolet GM Jim Perkins, why in the world the V6 models looked exactly like the more expensive and current top model, Z/28. He answered as you do…. and while I totally understand the logic and business end of it all, it still doesn’t soften the blow as to the feeling that we are working to satisfy the lowest common denominator and not from the top down.

Looking back though, we all need to recognize that this is the main reason the Mustang sells so much better…i.e. they build customer base from the ground up, so to speak…..I hate it too, but it’s the real world. In fact, the fact that so many compromises were not made in the design and layout of the 4th gen….i.e low seating position and lack of the ability to see the corners….eventually helped to hasten it’ s demise. Mustangs out sold the Camaro by an extreme margin to rental car companies and fleet sales…..a sale is a sale. You gotta’ sell the V6 models to be able to afford to build the performance models.

When the SS returned in 1996, it was given all those things the Z/28 owner longed for….and in fact it was initially called the Z28/SS….an odd marriage of two models with dissimilar missions…so they went their separate ways in 1997.

What seemed to go wrong somewhere along the line, was that the Z/28 was adopted as and subsequently relegated to being the base model V8….as opposed to using one of the other many model monikers .i.e. LT, Berlinetta (although I always hated that name), RS, etc…. Now that I think of it, the LT would have been the perfect moniker to use. I don’t blame GM for using the history and reputation of the Z/28 to sell cars….hell, who wouldn’t?!? It’s just to us purists, it was sorta’ sacrilegious.

But, obviously we can’t change the past, so we look to the future……using the lessons of the past.

When the Z06 was introduced, it reawakened the memory in the Camaro world, of the Z/28’s true mission and also showed us that not only could GM build such a model, but the success of which has proven the value of this decision. Scott, you added to this fervor with your special Z06 powered ZL/1 models. I truly believe the Z06 has heightened the value and aura of all Corvettes.

It also could provide you with an incredible advertising boon!

Imagine, about a year or two after the Camaro returns….initially with the RS (V6 or HO Ecotec), LT (base model V8 or turbo 6) and SS (fully optioned, V8) models…you can re-energize sales with a special, limited edition performance model, the Z/28.

Commercials and advertisements extolling the heritage and domination of the Z/28 will make anyone who ever considered themselves an enthusiast, trample anyone in our paths to the nearest dealer. Along with this excitement, the average Joe who just might be strolling through the showroom and lamenting the fact that he/she really wants a Z/28, can still buy a great car in the other models….only the most hardcore luxury Corvette buyer doesn’t get the Z06.

Finally, my comments (that got me is so much trouble in this thread :rolleyes: ) about GM’s lack of commitment to the Camaro were more to the point of GM’s loss of focus and the stranglehold you and your cohorts had to work under to even continue the f-body as long as you did…..much less improving the car to insure it’ survival.

Did GM spend enough on the Camaro to keep us all happy? Hell no.

But knowing the facts as you present them…about the tons of $$ that GM had to invest in the late switch to SUV’s and trucks, a person can better understand the lack of available funding. Add to that the major shift in buying habits and the writing was on the wall for the traditional muscle car....still hurts to say that out loud....

If I have any complaint about GM, it’s in the hope that it decides to be a leader and a trendsetter instead of being jerked around by the tail as other manufacturers carve out niche and mainstream markets while always playing catch-up. It’ll take more than rebates to keep buyers buying GM.

Witness the current revival of the horsepower wars (in which I believe the f-body fired the first real shot)....it seems as if GM is again playing catch-up after dropping the ball with the f-body.

It’s easy for us armchair quarterbacks to sit back and criticize and claim to have all the answers….w/o any of the responsibility you guys have…..doesn’t make it right, but hey, what else do we have to talk about? LOL!

BTW, You know exactly where I’m coming from, so I don’t take anything you might say here personally…. :D

Guess I’ll see you in the Windy City instead of Detroit :D

Z284ever

12-10-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Red Planet

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Not trying to get you even more upset RP, but..........

True, that was the original plan.

That is, until, Vince Piggins heard about a very hot SCCA road race series.

In late December of of 1966...when the first production Z/28 was delivered to a racing team....everything would change....forever.

Cobraeater

12-10-2002, 02:22 PM

Since Chevrolet is starting to designate all their top performance models SS (except Corvette ;) ) the chances of Z28 being the top model are zero!

Not to mention it would piss the hell out of a lot of 4th gen SS owners(which accounted for half of the Camaro V8 sales in 2002) myself included.

The 4th generation was the best performing, best handling F-Body to come from the factory and what it started will continue on in the 5th gen (V6,Z28,SS) like the Mustang(V6,GT,Cobra).

Do you think it would make sense for a 5th gen Z28 to take on a Cobra?:rolleyes: That's for the SS to do.:cool:

Living in the past is fine, but it shouldn't override the present.:rolleyes:

Z284ever

12-10-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by cobraeater

Do you think it would make sense for a 5th gen Z28 to take on a Cobra?:rolleyes: That's for the SS to do.:cool:

Living in the past is fine, but it shouldn't override the present.:rolleyes:

It's all in the past, now.

1967-1996 are in the past, just as 1997-2002 is.

And yes it absolutely makes sense for Z/28 to be the performance rival of any future Cobra.

Doug Harden

12-10-2002, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by cobraeater
Since Chevrolet is starting to designate all their top performance models SS (except Corvette ;) ) the chances of Z28 being the top model are zero!

Not to mention it would piss the hell out of a lot of 4th gen SS owners(which accounted for half of the Camaro V8 sales in 2002) myself included.

We DO NOT want to unseat the SS as the top model.....period!! We simply want a limited production, specially equipped model that is directed to the hardcore enthusiast...

Do you think it would make sense for a 5th gen Z28 to take on a Cobra?:rolleyes: That's for the SS to do.:cool:

The SC Cobra is a limited production high performance model...this is NOT what the SS was meant to do....the SS is the top model for the masses. The Z/28 we envision would be the "secret weapon" so to speak....

Living in the past is fine, but it shouldn't override the present.:rolleyes:

But let's be honest here...the SS was AWOL from 1972 until 1996...so don't be too quick to claim the throne.....;)

Cobraeater

12-10-2002, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
We DO NOT want to unseat the SS as the top model.....period!! We simply want a limited production, specially equipped model that is directed to the hardcore enthusiast...
[QUOTE]

That is what the SS is, for the enthusiast. If you want the absolute best performance model you should get a 4th gen Z28 with the 1LE package.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

The SC Cobra is a limited production high performance model...this is NOT what the SS was meant to do....the SS is the top model for the masses. The Z/28 we envision would be the "secret weapon" so to speak....
[QUOTE]

Ford is making 12,000 03 Cobras, so I wouldn't consider it limited production. That's about the same number for the 02 SS.;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

But let's be honest here...the SS was AWOL from 1972 until 1996...so don't be too quick to claim the throne.....;)

The 4th gen SS outperforms all the previous Camaros, so I think it can claim the throne.

The 4th gen Z28 has the same performance, but you could order better handling packages from SLP as options when you ordered your car.

Z284ever

12-10-2002, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

The SC Cobra is a limited production high performance model...this is NOT what the SS was meant to do....the SS is the top model for the masses. The Z/28 we envision would be the "secret weapon" so to speak....

I can live that Doug.....BTW, you're invited to come to the "Windy City" too.;)

Z284ever

12-10-2002, 05:19 PM

guionM

12-11-2002, 05:13 PM

OK...... Flame suit on... check! Sacred cow cattle prod in hand...check! Bunker standing open, ready for me to jump in....check! Well, here goes:

Part one
Originally posted by Red Planet
When the original Z28 was engineered and built, the U.S. Government was so concerned about the size of GM and the fact that it could be a monopoly that they threatened to spin Chevrolet off as a separate company. (should they have, I don't know...maybe so...but they didn't and NO ONE is smart enough today to know the answer.......)

Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. Honda built motorcyles. Nissan was Datsun. And there was no Mitsubishi, Hyundai, or many other manufacturers doing business in the United States.

My point is this: We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits (you wouldn't believe most of the frivilous lawsuits we get served with every day!) --- and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks.............think about it....NO, REALLY.....THINK about it! The consumer today has a mind boggling choice of vehicles to drive versus twenty -- or even ten years ago...

You seem to be reaching for excuses before you even answer a question. Everybody in the industry has to deal with these issues, not only GM. Thanks for the brief lesson, however, you seem to be justifying Camaro's demise......something that took place just before seemingly everyone & their brother announced they were invading a market that was once Camaro's.

That doesn't seem like a market that's dead methinks.

--Let's just go beat the hell outta those people at GM that decided to make the 4th Gen Z28 look like the V6!!!!!!!!!

---FORGET THE FACT THAT THIS DECISION WAS A LONG AGONIZING ONE AND THAT THE VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER WON OUT!!!

You see, Chevrolet did a special "California Only" Camaro V6 in the late 80s.....took a V6 and made it look much more like a Z28...and guess what.........sold like hotcakes so much so that the car was released nationwide as the Camaro RS the next year. And when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8.

You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other. Let me assure you that decisions on wheels, interior trims, and styling treatment are always reviewed with a group of owners.....

As you point out that California V6 spawned RS happened in the late 80s! The year is now 2002. Are you trying to say that the reason we all are wrong on this subject is because of a business decision (which you seem to be standing with) that dates back 12 years at a minimum? What your words seem to be saying is that some of us are justified in critizing the F-body program for a lack of change over the 10 season span of the 4th gen.

You also point out a very glaring example of what went wrong with Camaro. At the risk of irking some of the more hardcore elements here, although you take time to listen to some of the enthusiast, which ones do you listen to? Camaro had the drivetrain and suspension areas clamped like a pitbull on a leg. But Camaro lost in all other areas. The buyers who didn't want to give GM that extra $5+ grand plus for an SS were stuck with a plane jane Z28. The entry level buyers deserted to Mustang, the quality mavens went foreign, the do-it-yourselfers (the tuners) went Japanese, and Camaro simply didn't have enough to stand on it's own in the market. Running the 4th gen body into the ground over 10 years while your competitors at the very least sprang for a reskin, and the only people you have left are the hardcore group. It may do wonders for limited production cars like the Corvette, but it is a disaster waiting to happen if you hope to recapture Camaro's sales sucesses of the 80s (still can't believe that's the example you're using :eek: )

guionM

12-11-2002, 05:14 PM

Part Two
#3
Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have..........................and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry) And your comment about GM's stock price...have you looked at Ford or Chrysler lately?????

I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing here, and to tell you the truth it disgusts me. Simply because a member doesn't show up at a Camaro event when YOU say or else he isn't a Camaro enthusiast is arrogant, and is an attempt by you (not the first...I recall an e-mail you once sent me) to turn others against a person who has an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours, or fall in with your view on things. Is the reason he didn't go to a certain event really anyone's business?

As far as sitting down with you and get a perspective, I am sure everyone of us would love to do this (as long as perspective sharing runs both ways), but I think you are wrong in saying GM does not OWE us an explanation of what you are doing in the future. Fact of the matter is you DO owe the fans and enthusiasts of Camaro (the very people who are Camaro's most devoted buyers...and likely to be the ones willing to wait, work, and save to buy the 1st 5th gens that hit the lot) the common courtesy to at least know if they are wasting their time, and should buy an SUV instead... you DID say that's where the market is now. The "peek into office books" defense doesn't fly. If I was running a brokerage & I was selling 401k's or some other stock plan, if I knew I had a really good package comming that would fit exactly your needs, it would be bad business in the least, and dishonest at the most for me not to tell you about it. I wouldn't have to go into details, biut I'd tell you about it.....kinda like the fact the Corvette guys knowing that they should plan to buy a new Corvette in a couple of years.

I refuse to believe you do not understand this. :confused:

#4
...>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

The key word as you point out is ORIGINALLY . However you fail to note the fact that after the 1st year, with the exception of an intermission from 75-77 1/2, Z28 was the ultimate Camaro, period.... except for the overpriced Z28 SS's. Is this where you are taking the future high performance Camaro, a $35,000 toy instead of affordable daily performance?

It seems you are moving Camaro's performance model towards Corvette in exclusiveness, while at the same time ignoring the end of the market of bargain performance buyers, and those who simply don't want to pay that price. You have already stated many times that you don't support a mid level V8, so that means the choice could boil down to either SS, or V6. Again a disaster waiting to happen. Again, if someone's misguided idea drives the car into the ground, the "market" will be blamed while some other brand just keeps trucking along in sales. History repeats...again.

One more thought -- it seems that many feel that the car became overpriced.....perhaps so. But I would remind you that we had to put a substantial rebate on the base $18,000 car in order to sell it, yet until the 2001 model year, we did not have to put a rebate on the $30K plus SS model where we could not keep up with demand most of the time....................we eventually did put a rebate on it because GM made a committment to the President of the United States that we would do what he asked: we made a committment to get the economy moving...by putting Zero percent financing across the entire lineup...including Corvette and Camaro SS -- cars that were selling without rebates. (go read a back issue of the Wall Street Journal --look for the article about 'How GM Saved the U.S. Economy)

Again, I think you need to get out a bit more & look at other competitors BEYOND Camaro SS. Tell me exactly WHY you think you needed rebates to sell $18,000 Camaros while SS's continued to sell without them. Because, although I'm not going to say Camaros are embarressments, they simply could not compete in the market. My guess why? Because some people behind Camaro simply did not give a damn beyond performance at worse, or at best focused on the right hand while the left one whitered to the point of uselessness. Camaro V6s, although fast, were old to look at, had no advertising (right, advertising at GM is only used on cars that don't need it.......but there are those Oldsmobile commercials that keep popping up), and was allowed to disappear from the public awareness. That is , except for Camaro enthusiast.

#5
In closing.....I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks on GM on this board because I believe that most attacks are based on ignorance of the REAL facts taken in context of the larger picture. I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks some of you make on each other. But I guess that it is after 3:00 am and reading this just kinda set me off.

If I have offended some of you, sorry.......but I ask you to look at the bigger picture. And I guess I'm a frustrated teacher....because I try to educate to the realities and it doesn't seem to get through. :owed:

I find it ironic that you take the position of needing to teach all of us, yet you say very little about listening to all of us. I am sure that you would clearly understand that with each vehicle that comes out (SUV or otherwise) and no word on Camaro is frustrating. I will give you the fact that you can not talk about it, and I have no gripes about it whatsoever :eek:.

But what befuddles me is that it seems most every time you come here it's to complain about either the people here or the speculations and opinions people have, or to give a 'have faith' or 'rally the troops' to defeat CAFE for trucks.

You say your purpose is to teach. Most all of us know that the industry today has to jump high hurdles, and those who are interested know the problems facing ALL..not ONLY GM automakers today. But as they say, what's the bottom line. All anyone knows, or care's about is "where's the next Camaro", "when can we stick it to Mustang", and "why did you abandon the 4th gen".

Long stories about CAFE, regulations, lawsuits, SUV's current successs, decisions made back in the 80s, million dollar anniversary wheels, or anything else simply doesn't wash when at the same time, not only are the boys at Dearborn Michagan selling almost 200,000 Mustangs, but seeming everyone (including Infinity for crissake :alert:) view the former Camaro's market healthy enough to spend the money to dive in. Maybe some people should be working on keeping cars competitive instead of watching stock prices. :think:

I don't expect a revelation on the next Camaro from you, but it seems a bit condesending to seemingly blame everything else for Camaro's failure but GM and some of the people deciding Camaro's direction.

For that, every criticism directed at GM over this, though perhaps at times misguided, is definately deserved.

(dives into bunker before the 'protect sacred cows' brigade arrives)

Z284ever

12-12-2002, 01:47 AM

:think:

BigDarknFast

12-12-2002, 02:48 AM

Wow -- I thought this thread had run its course but it appears it has new life.

RedPlanet - thanks for posting. I'm going to take your advice to heart and be extra care not to offend fellow members. Everyone deserves to post their opinion. I happen to agree with many of the things you have said, and am glad to see you post them here:

But does it occur to some of you that we live in a different world today than we did back in the "good ole days" of 1967-1972?" ... Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. ... We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits ... and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks....

Now...to the 4th gen Z28... when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8. You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other...

That makes perfect sense to me and I agree 100 percent.

...perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with). Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have.....and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans.

It's perfectly within one's rights to have a lot of negative feelings about their car and express such things. If someone is truly embarrassed, fed up, angry with GM or 4gen's... then the logical thing to do is move on, instead of dwelling on it. All the carping does is frustrate people like me, who are still non-cynical fbody fans. I also agree that GM does NOT "owe" fans a look at product plans. What a selfish thing to demand! Yes, GM... reveal costly and original details of future products and release timing for the whole world to see here... give competitors a multi-year advance notice of what you will be doing... all for the sake of a small tribe of internet board members. Riiight. :rolleyes: In fact I think the office records analogy holds just fine. Anyone -- care to post your social security and credit card numbers here? Didn't think so.

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Again I agree 100%. What could be more exact but these words direct from a true Camaro historian and the originators?

guionM - with all due respect, a few comments about your statements:

"Everybody in the industry has to deal with these issues, not only GM."

You IMHO missed RP's point there, that GM had more of a problem dealing with such things, because GM did not react quickly enough to the SUV boom - unlike the others. And it thus cost them precious $$ which could have been used in the 1990's to make a 5gen for release right now. It amazes me sometimes to read this board... people (not necessarily you guionM) seem to think GM can just order up a new car like you order a hamburger. It takes YEARS of advance planning and $$ to make it happen, during which time it is best not to trumpet your plans lest competitors show up the same year or sooner with a similar offering. OBviously... GM made some mistakes in the 1990's... not all Zarella's fault BTW... resulting in today's hiatus. It is equally obvious to those not bitter and jaded, GM is today putting heavy emphasis on performance and specifically performance car plans. It just takes a while to make them happen. IMO a true fan will be patient and enjoy what's available now, until the new stuff starts appearing.

"I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing here, and to tell you the truth it disgusts me. Simply because a member doesn't show up at a Camaro event when YOU say or else he isn't a Camaro enthusiast is arrogant, and is an attempt by you (not the first...I recall an e-mail you once sent me) to turn others against a person who has an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours, or fall in with your view on things."

I'll be the first to admit I don't know all the background here, and generally avoid getting involved in personal stuff anyway. But can I make the comment I am disappointed you went here with your statements? RP never called that chap "arrogant"... simply said he was "frustrated". It's a real disappointment to see another board member responding to RP like this. It's also not cool IMHO to reveal email contents on a thread, since people normally assume email is confidential... else they would have posted in a thread, would they not? Frankly I'm hoping now this does not drive RP away - because I do thrive on reading his opinions and statements of hope about the next Camaro.

"It seems you are moving Camaro's performance model towards Corvette in exclusiveness, while at the same time ignoring the end of the market of bargain performance buyers, and those who simply don't want to pay that price. You have already stated many times that you don't support a mid level V8, so that means the choice could boil down to either SS, or V6. Again a disaster waiting to happen."

I for one have no objection to moving towards Corvette... although no one here really has a clue as to what GM will do on the matter and I don't really see where RP's statements make such an indication. This may be heresy... maybe the V8 Camaro IS a little too downscale. Young guys with high insurance claims maybe SHOULD NOT be affording a Z28. There. I said it. Young guys with hormone abundance - can go drive up the rates on the WRX. I for one couldn't care less about a midlevel V8. I want a supreme muscle car and have the $$ to get one. OF COURSE I want a good value. But I also want a true hi-po machine. If the next base Camaro also then has a peppy V6, I believe it will succeed as long as the other elements are in place (versatility, styling, value). Don't toss in a weak V8 just because 'hey... MUSTANG has one!'. As for a "disaster waiting to happen"... I predict the 2004 GTO is going to prove you wildly wrong.

"I find it ironic that you take the position of needing to teach all of us, yet you say very little about listening to all of us."

I disagree completely with this... everything I've read from RP indicates he is one of the few who DO listen. What a shame to see this posted here. :( I am fascinated to read RP's posts and learn a little more history from a clear expert in the field. I hope he gets past all this petty bickering and keeps posting now and then... though I wonder sometimes why he bothers :rolleyes:

BTW... how many of you "true fbody fans"... have actually went and bought one recently (this is not referring to you guionM, don't know what you drive). I've bought two in the last three years, plus a used IROC.... And while I understand a lot of folks are strapped for cash for various reasons, it seems a lot also could get one and help prove there is demand but instead would rather stay on the sidelines and gripe.

One lonely Platoon Leader of the Sacred Cows Brigade has now checked in... now it's time to hear from the "Listen mister I've bought 10 Camaros in past years and am now alienated with the whole situation" crew to check in. ;)

Z284ever

12-12-2002, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

It's perfectly within one's rights to have a lot of negative feelings about their car and express such things. If someone is truly embarrassed, fed up, angry with GM or 4gen's... then the logical thing to do is move on, instead of dwelling on it. All the carping does is frustrate people like me, who are still non-cynical fbody fans.

Since I'm the guy this is all directed at....maybe I should respond here.

I suppose I could move on to other things and not frustrate you or Scott...that way the status quo could remain undisturbed, and no ones' cage would get rattled.

But you know what......I think I have a disease...YES, I think I am a CAMAROPHILE!!! I eat, live, breathe and s**t CAMAROS.....I always have.

When I see my beloved Camaro neglected, mismanaged, and generally not getting what it deserves...it bugs me.....IT REALLY BUGS ME!.....and this is where I come to air my opinions.

BDnF...I always look forward to your posts, (eventhough I usually disagree). I find them interesting in an off beat sort of way.

I listened to you say that you'd like a larger Camaro
:eek: with two rear "doorlets"......the least you can do for me is to listen to what I have to say.;)

guionM

12-12-2002, 12:27 PM

Bigdarknfast, every single point you made was very good, and I can see your view clearly. But I'll touch on a few things about how I feel & maybe you'll see my point here.

First, when I say "GM owes" it's fans, I don't mean a peek at future products, and I mentioned that. I know that maybe at the moment, GM can not say anything about Camaro in particular, and I buy that. But what I don't buy is slamming people over their frustrations over this whole episode, which was handled dismally.

Second, you say GM had more of a problem in deling with new regulations, but I beg to differ. Both Ford & Chrysler had to deal with the same issues with far LESS resources than GM has. GM's market share didn't start to significantly decline till the 1980s. If 10 people are ordered by the goverment to spend $1000 on a new tax, and one person has almost as much resources as the 2nd & 3rd richest persons combined, I'd be nut's to think the person who can most afford it would be hardest hit.

Finally, I understand that GM was late to the SUV craze, but setting aside all dislike I have for the beasts (except the H2 ;) ), the issue I have now isn't GM putting money towards them. I know for a fact GM has some awsome things comming down the line, and I have know this since late last summer. It will take a total of at least 4 years to get them because it does take time to produce these cars. But not everyone knows someone at GM or Holden. Doug, Branden, Werm ,or even me can say post a little something now & then, but to the average person, GM lost it.

As for moving Camaro's performance toward Corvette, I have no objections towards that, but I do object in moving the performance Camaro's price and exclusitivity toward there. If you are going to also have the same performance in a cheaper package (ala the old Mustang LX 5.0) then I'm happy. But that's not the feeling I get from red's posts. At the same time, I really don't think he's looking at why the rest of the Camaro line (outside of SS) became a total failure. It's great to have a car that can run with a Vette, but is that the only thing we want out of the next Camaro? Is that enough to make sure the next Camaro doesn't end up with the same fate as the 4th gen?

I, as you, don't buy into some of the whining about Z28's power affecting insurence rates. I think I was one of the first people to mention this when I noted long ago that my Z was cheaper to insure than a same year Integra or Eclipse. I'll state for the record once again, Horsepower does NOT affect insurence rates, the amout of "youth" drivers a carline gets does! But, Camaro I feel will need a wider audience to be successful in the future. It doesn't have to sell 200,000 cars per year, but it should be broad enough to sell at least 70-80,000 (same as Monte Carlo) instead of the pityful sub-30,000 level LS1 Camaros have been averaging the final few years. That's Corvette levels!

I haven't brought 10 Camaros lately, so I'm not a collector, I'm a customer. I'm one of those "other" people who will buy a car because of it's virtues, not because it's a cult. I love my Camaro more than GM does (I still have a Camaro, do they?). I'll buy another Camaro if it's in the marketplace when I'm ready to take another multi-year loan. Am I going to wait till the cows come home just so I can buy another one? Not likely, I'll just keep the one I have, and take my business elsewhere, and that's not going to help them GM at all.

Despite my rant, I do appriciate Redplanet comming around, it shows that someone at GM is interested in what's being said about Camaro. But I draw the line when I see people with the view that I know, you don't, I'm committed, you aren't, I don't have to tell you anything, you can't question me, and I'm here to teach you, but never I'm here to listen.

I guess the point the whole point that I'm trying to make is If there's nothing to to report, say so. But don't come here with stock reports, regulatory history, or issues with the goverment, or even worse...how the market has changed. It all comes across as excuses or diversions.

Again, I'm not slamming you BDF, I'm not really slamming Red either, but it's absurd to drop by once in a blue moon, and basically make a presentation that can be very easily viewed as being from someone who is more concerned with how his GM stock options are doing, and complaining how goverment is destroying GM because it's trying to regulate SUVs or how someone is bringing lawsuits.

My message to redplanet would be: These things happens to everyone. GM has people they pay good money to deal with those problems. Now..... let's talk Camaros! :)

Doug Harden

12-12-2002, 01:12 PM

....here we go again......

While I certianly don't need to protect Scott here....he's a big boy....I can offer somewhat of a perspective.

This is personal to Scott...it's more than a job to him......so, yes, he takes it personally when people choose to criticize GM or him personally in a way that is demeaning, derogatory, exaggerated and sometimes flat out mean.

To say......

Despite my rant, I do appriciate Redplanet comming around, it shows that someone at GM is interested in what's being said about Camaro. But I draw the line when I see people with the view that I know, you don't, I'm committed, you aren't, I don't have to tell you anything, you can't question me, and I'm here to teach you, but never I'm here to listen.

I guess the point the whole point that I'm trying to make is If there's nothing to to report, say so. But don't come here with stock reports, regulatory history, or issues with the goverment, or even worse...how the market has changed. It all comes across as excuses or diversions.

...is basically looking a gift horse square in the mouth....sounds like your telling him "Unless you tell me what I want to hear, then shut-up." To truly listen to both sides of an argument, you have to accept their reasoning, like it or not. In this instance, I felt like Scott was answering a lot of other comments made by others here......and other places people run into him. Let's be honest, those involved in this immediate conversation excluded, a lot of people repeat the same old tired arguements over and again and never seem to get it.

Does this mean that you can't disagree or debate (in an adult fashion) ? Of course not! It's hard enough to get him to even come here lately, I'd hate to see him leave........

Scott lives and bleeds Camaro ten times more than any of us ever hoped to....he spends nearly ALL of his free time at various Camaro and other events, meeting people and listening to what they have to say.......and more frequently that anyone would like, having to defend decisions made by his superiors as to all of the topics discussed here daily.

Do you think he is made of stone? When people say some of the things I've read, they don't seem to care that this is his life's work and it hurts to have all your efforts dismissed and only focus on the negatives that effect you personally.

I hope that my complaints are taken in the vein as being an effort to get GM to do better and not repeat teh mistakes of the past.......while understanding the position good people like Scott are placed in.

I wil say that the comment about the e-mail was a low blow........

Who helped fight the battles over getting even a small budget to keep the f-body alive? Who had to do this with NO advertising budget what so ever after 1997? Who was there when the workers at St. Therese were told the end was here? Who was there when the last Camaro was sold? (I was too, FWIW)

Do you think Scott agrees with and will defend blindly every desicion that GM makes? I could tell you stories....LOL! Ask him about the meeting concerning the Astek....I still get a good laugh about that one.

To me, this is why he invited Charlie to an event....we all know how hard it is to have something written on a message board, or in an e-mail taken in the same tone and spirit it was given.....I love to debate Scott one on one...he's a passionate person...and so am I....you really will get a better perspective on these topics.

While I'll agree guoinM has every right to call anyone on a point he sees as being wrong....the tone of his response was harsh to say the least......

I will say, that I too agree with a lot of what BD&F said......except the part about a more expensive, larger Camaro....I'd agree with guoinM on that one.

So, there's my little $0.02 worth...offering just a little defense of a good friend of mine......

Z284ever

12-12-2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by BigDarknFast

Again I agree 100%. What could be more exact but these words direct from a true Camaro historian and the originators?

You want Camaro history?..........

DATE:

October 4, 1966.

LOCATION:

GM Proving Grounds, Warren Michigan.

Vince Piggins let's Pete Estes (Chevy G.M.) drive a Z/28 prototype for the first time. Estes loves it!

Camaro heirarchy has just changed.

Z28Wilson

12-12-2002, 01:30 PM

I've met Red Planet once (at the 2001 CICC show btw Doug :) ) and he was nothing but gracious and approachable. I really recommend everyone go and talk to him at a show. It seems like he is more than willing on this very board to explain what he thinks went wrong, some of the points that we've brought up and some we haven't. He KNOWS the 4th Gen was underfunded, admits to some mistakes in marketing and the car itself, etc. It doesn't seem like that is good enough for some here. If he disagrees on some points, he disagrees....oh well get over it. But I would just remind you that a guy like him WILL take a lot of things to heart because just by talking to him you could tell that Camaro is his passion, his job, his life! This is the guy who is fighting the hardest for us. We should all keep that it the back of our minds while we have these "friendly" debates...;)

Doug Harden

12-12-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Z284ever
You want Camaro history?..........

DATE:

October 4, 1966.

LOCATION:

GM Proving Grounds, Warren Michigan.

Vince Piggins let's Pete Estes (Chevy G.M.) drive a Z/28 prototype for the first time. Estes loves it!

Camaro heirarchy has just changed.

.......Estes liked it so much, his co-workers made him a one of a kind 1968 Z/28 convertible!!

Could you get four wheel disc brakes (JL8 option) on an SS? Don't think so.

Could you get headers in the trunk on an SS? Nope.

Could you get a cross ram, 2- 4 barrel intake and fiberglass cowl hood on an SS? (I think the intake & carbs came in the trunk too) Nope.

Could you even order AC, or an automatic on a Z/28? Not until it was made more civilized and mainstream on the 2nd gens.

This is what were saying people......look at what GM did with the Z06.....and transfer that success to a 5th gen Z/28 and we'll be tickled pink!!!:D :D :D

IZ28

12-12-2002, 01:34 PM

Thats goods and all, but I'm waiting to hear what RP has to say to my posts, Z284's, and guion's.

guionM

12-12-2002, 02:56 PM

Doug, I don't doubt Scott's commitment to Camaro, never have. I know he (along with many others) worked hard to keep Camaro going at a time the rest of the company wanted it gone....yesterday.

But what he said wasn't an invitation to Z to come to a Camaro event. That was a backhanded slam by questioning his commitment. No one should question anyone's commitment here on the Camaro, simply because by being a regular visitor to this site & owning a Z28 alone separates one from the masses. I look at this board as a f-body family. We disagree, but we are here for one purpose, we love Camaros!! All our other differences are just peanuts.

The e-mail comment was admittedly a low blow, and I brought this up only because it's a pattern I really don't appriciate. If someone has an issue about anyone, take it off the board. If someone disagrees with someone, that's perfectly fine. This is a message board. I may disagree with you very strongly today on something, but I may agree with you 100% tomorrow on something else (happens with Redzed and I all the time ;) ). But I'm not going to go to a 3rd person & turn them against you, or question you. Maybe I'm just wired oddly.

I appriciate you sticking up for a friend, and if Scott & I are ever in the same town, I'd be interested in sitting down with him over a couple of beers & have a very lively conversation. Although I probally came across as harshly (if not moreso) as he did, his post seemed to show (and I am going to believe it's unintentional) someone who seemed more intrested in how stocks were doing & drifting towards "GM-think" than the concerns of the enthusiasts on this site.

That's all.

Doug Harden

12-12-2002, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by guionM
But what he said wasn't an invitation to Z to come to a Camaro event. That was a backhanded slam by questioning his commitment. No one should question anyone's commitment here on the Camaro, simply because by being a regular visitor to this site & owning a Z28 alone separates one from the masses. ......

.......... Although I probably came across as harshly (if not moreso) as he did, his post seemed to show (and I am going to believe it's unintentional) someone who seemed more intrested in how stocks were doing & drifting towards "GM-think" than the concerns of the enthusiasts on this site.

That's all.

I understand your position......but re-read what Scott wrote....

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have.........

....I think, and I should let Scott speak for himself, that this was more of a reflection on Scott's part of what he sees on his year round, weekend adventures to Camaro events. He sees people like poSSum from Canada and the Heinos from Seattle (along with many others) that will drive across country to attend and promote the Camaro hobby and ownership.

Now this doesn't mean that you have to do such drastic measures to be a true Camaro person, but these kinds of people show someone like Scott, Rick Baldick, Jon Moss and John Heinrecy the passion and depth of enthusiasm for this car.....to be honest, I don't put a lot of stock in message board posters as being hardcore enthusiasts....you might be, but it's pretty easy to be a hero from the comforts of your living room...

I honestly didn't see a "back-handed slam" there or even a real questioning of anyone's commitment.....but then again, I know where Scott's coming from I guess.....I actually saw his comments as an invitation to sit down face to face....he won't bite! LOL!

Let's try to move on and leave the personal and private stuff out of what truly is a good debate on the mission of the Z/28.

guionM

12-12-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
I understand your position......but re-read what Scott wrote....

....I think, and I should let Scott speak for himself, that this was more of a reflection on Scott's part of what he sees on his year round, weekend adventures to Camaro events. He sees people like poSSum from Canada and the Heinos from Seattle (along with many others) that will drive across country to attend and promote the Camaro hobby and ownership.

Now this doesn't mean that you have to do such drastic measures to be a true Camaro person, but these kinds of people show someone like Scott, Rick Baldick, Jon Moss and John Heinrecy the passion and depth of enthusiasm for this car.....to be honest, I don't put a lot of stock in message board posters as being hardcore enthusiasts....you might be, but it's pretty easy to be a hero from the comforts of your living room...

I honestly didn't see a "back-handed slam" there or even a real questioning of anyone's commitment.....but then again, I know where Scott's coming from I guess.....I actually saw his comments as an invitation to sit down face to face....he won't bite! LOL!

Let's try to move on and leave the personal and private stuff out of what truly is a good debate on the mission of the Z/28.

By you knowing him, I'm sure you probally have a better understanding of what he's trying to say as opposed to someone who just knows him from a message board and a few e-mails.

Now, back to the thread... :)

Z284ever

12-12-2002, 09:54 PM

Thanks Guion, IZ28 and others for coming to my defense.

Scott has been gracious enough to invite me to certain Camaro events afew times in the past.

I have also invited Scott to some of ours, here in Chicago, (it's amazing, when you put about 8 million people in one place....enough of them own enough Camaros, so you can throw some pretty impressive shows without leaving town).

We've never made the connection...but hopefully, one day, we will.

I have the sneaking suspicion that Scott feels, a one on one with him will succeed in making me forget all about my ferver for the Z/28, and thus remove a thorn from his side. Well, forget it buddy.....unless you're a master hypnotist, (and even if you are), it ain't gonna happen. (SARCASM)
:)

Anyway....thanks again guys...and let's stop arguing about this....AND START ARGUING ABOUT BRINGING BACK THE Z/28 !

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 12:28 AM

Good evening, all,

Red Planet here…..Vice President in Charge of Pot Stirring….

This thread has certainly hit on a number of issues…and I took a few days to ponder the various points of view before chiming in once again. (go get yourself a beverage….this is gonna be long!) (in fact, I will have to post this in sections….)

Understand that these are my opinions…not necessarily those of the company I work for….additionally, please take the time, if you ARE going to read this long epistle – to read the whole way through…..

Subject #1…… The nomenclature (Z28 vs SS)

This is the least of my concerns for the time being, quite frankly. If pressed to say what my biggest priority would be in the larger picture…I’d have to say ‘to ensure that the next generation ‘pony/sports car’ is worthy of the name Camaro.’

Interestingly enough, the thread, as I recall, had a lot to do with which nomenclature should appear on the ‘ultimate’ Camaro and whether or not the 4th Gen was really a Z28. Many of us have been going around and around about that subject………yet I find it interesting that no one, as I recall – has mentioned that we are ALL wrong……….

The ultimate Camaro – quite frankly was the ZL1. True, there were only 69 of them produced in the 1969 model year….but when you talk about flat-out performance, nothing touched a ZL1 until the very end of the 4th gen.

In fact, when my good friend Matt Murphy and I were talking back about 3 years ago, we both lamented that it was not in the cards to get the LS6 dropped into the 4th gen Camaro. With the donation of John Heinricy’s ‘captured fleet’ 2001 Camaro SS – and a whole bunch of parts from a Z06, Matt was able to create an incredible 4th gen Project Camaro that we immediately put on the show circuit. (not to mention giving the keys to a whole bunch of journalists)

Matt’s company, GMMGInc is now building a limited number of these cars for the public. (Ask Jason D. or Chris F. what they think of the ‘new’ ZL1….don’t take my word for it)

Now…before anyone goes into convulsions – I’m not saying that the ZL1 should or should not become a model within a future entry……..but just thought I’d stir the pot some more!

Subject #2 -- “Why GM may not necessarily owe it to you to tell you about the future.” Please read a post that my very good friend, Doug Harden posted about a week ago……..a very very very wise man! Now……..please, let’s move on.
Rest assured – GM does not purposely try to upset you.

(to be continued)

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 12:30 AM

(part 2 in a very long post!)

Subject #3 --- “ GM should listen to me! They don’t know what they’re doing!!!!!”

Many of you and I are very much alike. I can remember going to work for General Motors wayyyyyyyyyyy back in 1977 (sorry, but it does not seem possible that I’ve been here for over 25 years………) and I had just arrived after being a sales manager for a Chevrolet dealership. I was full of p**s and vinegar and was ready to tell everyone at Chevrolet and GM ‘how it should be done’ and ‘what’s wrong with GM.’ Well….a funny thing happened…..the more I yelled and carried on, the more I found out that there are many many VERY GOOD reasons for why things happen….and most of those are transparent to the public.
And I found out that more often or not, I was wrong due to my ignorance of not understanding all of the issues behind decisions. Suffice it to say that there is a lot of things that happen within GM and the auto industry as a whole that I do not agree with. But I also know that there are many good reasons why things are the way they are. And for what it’s worth, for those of you who do not know me, watching the Camaro and Firebird exit the market nearly killed me……still drives me crazy. Now…my point in this little trip down memory lane is this: Don’t ever assume that the solution is as easy as you think it is. Invariably, you probably do not have nearly enough information ………we’ll come back to this subject a little later…….

Subject #4 – “Listening to the customer”.

Now….I know some of you may think that I am deaf…that I am not hearing you. I DO hear you! While I cannot say that I read every post (because I simply do not have the time to do so) I monitor several sites ….one in particular is this site and this particular subject….5th gen. And please, do not take offense to this next statement…but I cannot recall one idea from this site that has not been given to me by at least a dozen people in person.

THAT’S NOT TO SAY THAT YOU SHOULD NOT POST YOUR IDEAS!

I welcome them and so does just about everyone else on this site…..and I hope that you will continue to do so…..because you never know when one or more of you will have one heck of an idea that no one has ever thought ot. Good example: cup holders! People have been drinking inside their vehicles, I assume, since the first car was built…but until someone finally made the connection……we tended to have no place to sit the cup! Now, I'm not saying that cup holders were the end-all to the industry.....but think about it....all cars have them today....and it was a customer that brought it to the attention of the manufacturers that it was important to have in a vehicle.

I know that some of you think that the people who I meet in person may be reluctant to confront me with their thoughts and opinions….. While I’m sure that some enthusiasts are somewhat careful in what they say to me, the majority have no reservations whatsoever in telling me >>>>> WHAT THEY REALLY THINK!!!!!!!!<<<<<<
I’ll never forget taking a preproduction ’98 Z28 to the I.C.C. convention in the Pocono Mountains in the summer of 1997. One avid Camaro Enthusiast nearly knocked the crowd over trying to get me to yell “you call that a Camaro???? It looks like a DAMN CATFISH!”

Funny thing…..that same fellow….Andy… has bought 3 new Camaros since 1998……and we still laugh at that story whenever we run into each other. Trust me….my fellow enthusiasts are not bashful……and they have no qualms about sharing their thoughts and opinions with me………
I like to say that no matter what we do with Camaro (or Corvette or Firebird) 50% will love it, 50% will hate it….and 40% of the 50% that hate it will like it within a year.)

(to be continued, yet again)

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 12:32 AM

(part three of this epistle.....)

Now……why do I discount what I read on the internet?

Let me propose something to you. If a fellow came up to you on the street and told you that he would get you a great deal on a ‘widget’ and could save you 20% -- and just give him the check…he’ll be right back with your ‘widget’ – would you do it? I think most of you, if not all of you would say “hell no!”

Now I realize that this is an oversimplification….but think about it. I don’t necessarily know most of you. There are even a few of you out there that refuse to tell the rest of us what you do for a living.

If we are going to commit hundreds of millions of dollars on a new vehicle, you can bet your exhaust pipes that I’m gonna want to know who it is that I’m talking to! And so, while I read your ideas, I may tend to discount them….because I don’t know if you are 35 years old with an income of 60K a year….or a 14 year old – (and that doesn’t mean I don’t need to worry about what 14 year olds think…because I know that I want them to buy our products when they buy their cars and trucks in the future) or……perhaps you might be a ‘troll’ trying to stir people up …….. That’s why when we do product clinics, we always make sure to separate the groups into ‘likeness’ – for instance:

>Female V6 Mustang owners under 35
>Female V6 Mustand owners over 35
>Male V6 Mustang owners under 35
>Male V6 Mustang owners over 35
>Female V6 Camaro owners under 35……….

and so on and so on so that we talk with V8 owners, V6 owners, Mustang, Eclipse, etc etc etc. And…lastly, we also talk to people who have responded that they are in the market in the next 18 months for a particular type of car. All in all, we might talk to hundreds…even thousands of people when researching a new product, interior, etc. We DO filter…using demographic info. And here’s a kicker…..in many of the clinics, the attendees MAY NOT know who it is they are talking to. (although we usually tell them at the end……….)

Now…is this perfect? No way. But suffice it to say that we do listen. And I listen. And I also know that I can learn a LOT from standing around in the parking lot late at night with a bunch of enthusiasts at one of the many Camaro/Fcar events ….that’s when the real ‘pearls’ or insights really come out. (Mr. Harden can, I believe, vouch for that ……)

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 12:34 AM

(yet another part to this post......refill the beverage)

Subject #5 – (and this is in response to one of you who felt it was inappropriate for me to address one particular person in one of my posts.) Hey Guy….you mention something about a private email I sent to you. Unfortunately I do not recall what it is that I may have said in that email that got you upset. I guess the incredible volume of emails may be the reason for no recall. My point in the recent post was that everyone has an opinion. However, opinions do tend to have a regional flavor. Additionally, I was taking issue with a statement to the fact that (and I don’t mean this to be an exact quote) “it is an embarrassment to drive a 4th gen.” I gotta tell you – there are a lot of 4th gen owners out there that would take a LOT of offense to that statement. And, I guess because I’m very passionate about Camaros….I take offense to it also. Now…I’m not saying that a 4th gen is perfect….far from it…..but I can say this: The 4th gen will do anything a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Gen Camaro can do in terms of performance and handling…….and do it better with the A/C cranked up and the stereo blaring away. (assuming everything is stock0

Now, this might be unfair, but we get a lot of phone calls…..myself as well as a lot of people within GM that worked on the Camaro. We try to listen to everyone. But I gotta tell you…and you may not like it…..but I think I would put a little more thought into what someone tells me that demonstrates the passion for the product by actions, not by telephone calls. Again, I’m not saying that “well, you don’t come to shows….so you don’t count!”
What I AM saying is that everyone needs to understand – just as you have tried to tell me – that there are many opinions out there – and that yours or mine are not always the right way to go.
So…if I upset you, I’m sorry.

Subject #6 – “The Passionate Red Planet”

There are those within GM that would tell you that I’m just a little bit (or a lot) nuts. I suspect there are those that look at someone who would hitch his (or her) wagon to a falling star and wonder if that person was certifiable. And perhaps I am. Many of you have heard me say that I fell in love with the Camaro the first time I laid my eyes on the first Camaro our dealership received in early September of 1966. Yes, Corvettes are magnificent machines….but in my ‘certifiable’ mind, the Camaro has always had ‘soul’ – and I don’t know that every car does have ‘soul.’ (someone said in a meeting not too long ago: “If Corvette is Chevrolet’s heart and soul, then Camaro is its blood and guts.” I’m crazy about the Camaro…certifiable. And thus, the passion comes through in some of my posts. Probably not the most Political Correct thing to allow to happen………but if I ever lose that passion, I hope someone runs me over with a Z28 or SS and kills me.

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 12:36 AM

(finally, the last post on my response....)

Our Camaro Enthusiasts are some of the most brand loyal people to the Chevrolet lineup. I believe many of us think alike. (I found out that I am NOT THE ONLY ONE to decorate his house in ‘Camaro’

Now…I’m not here to lead you to believe that I am the only one with this passion. The fact that so many of you spend so much time on this site,…and many more sites similar to it…..tells me that we have more in common than we probably realize—and one of those common denominators is passion for the Camaro.

This is a free country. We have free speech. And when some of you criticize GM, you might be surprised to find that I sometimes agree! I don’t post as such….but I agree nevertheless. We’ve made some incredibly foolish decisions. Our Board and our previous leaders hired some people from the outside that did not have passion for the product. I nearly went berserk after the “Z man” took over the company……..and I celebrated very richly when he left! I celebrated once again when Mr. Lutz came aboard. I don’t agree with everything he’s doing, but I’m proud to work for him—‘cause the man HAS PASSION FOR THE PRODUCT! (oopppss….digressing again…..) Back to criticizing GM…….I do, however, take exceptions to accusations when they are unfounded….and by unfounded, I mean……not looking at the bigger picture.

Here’s a perfect exampler of what I’m talking about: I think most of you would claim that the 4th gen Camaro was the least successful Camaro of the 4 generations. Look at the numbers! The 4th gen had the lowest overall volume!

But you PROBABLY would be surprised to find out that it actually captured a marginally larger portion of the retail passenger car market over the entire run than did the 3rd gen! (go look….the numbers are public record.) (it’s because the “pie” -- or total passenger car market within the United States --- got much smaller as SUVs, Trucks, etc came into the market. See….if you only look at the production numbers, it is easy to ‘declare’ something….but you usually need to look a little deeper……… Now…I’m also not saying that it was a raging success. But I guess that I’m proud to say that the 2002 Camaro SS is the fastest, most powerful, most fuel efficient, and cleanest (in terms of emissions) that we ever produced in the history of Camaro.

Again….I will never say that GM is perfect or that we are always right. But when I see something written that may not be true, I will often post with a reply. Perhaps, in some cases, it is to try to educate. Perhaps it is from my experience.

I know this: I would never tell a computer technician how to fix my computer! I would never tell an architect how to build my house. (that is not a shot at you Mr. H…….I’m only using it as an example….) I would never tell my best friend, who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine how to treat a patient…and I would never tell my eye doctor how to fix my vision……..

And please! – I’m not saying that you are all ignorant and have no idea of how to run a car company. But I would ask you to at least consider an insider’s opinion. And realize that there just MAY be reasons for things that happen that you may never have considered. And yes, you might have a cousin or neighbor that is in the business…but I assure you that hearing some stories is not the same thing as being on the inside.
Here’s a “for instance.” My best friend, as I mentioned before is a Doctor of Internal Medicine. Now….most of us know that when someone has a headache, you should take an aspirin, right?

Not necessarily…..

As a medical Doctor, you would know that there are any number of things that should be looked at…..is the patient on blood thinner? If so, Aspirin is NOT the way to go!

And lastly…someone mentioned that I perhaps thought that I was the only one “committed” to the Camaro.

No, I don’t believe that.

I believe there are a lot of people that were committed to Camaro. And I believe that there are a lot of you out there committed to the Camaro. Prime example: Mr. Harden has knocked himself out putting together some really incredible gatherings for Camaro Enthusiasts everywhere. He and his club (C.I.C.C.) put together one helluva Pace Car Gathering in Indianapolis in 2000. One year later, he and his club put together a 35th Anniversary Birthday Bash for the Camaro at Indy Raceway Park in conjuction with the 50th Anniversary of NHRA. No…..you do not have to put together shows and events to be committed……..but I use him as an example of someone who I would never question in terms of commitment.

It brings to mind an old story about a breakfast of ham and eggs.

To put together a breakfast of Eggs and Ham, The Chicken has to be cooperative, BUT THE PIG HAS TO BE COMMITTED! I gotta tell you…..those of us who will work in the future on the possible replacement of a V8 Sports Car will have to be committed….because Mr. Lutz will accept nothing less. (Thank God!!!)

I may not question your commitment…but understand that no matter what you say, most of your livelihoods will not hinge on whether or not we get it right. And no matter what we do, some of you may play ‘armchair quarterback.’ That is NOT a slam……but I guess I want you to know that I am doing my best to show my commitment.

OK……….this, I believe, may go down in the Guiness Book of Worlds Records as the longest post in history.

If I have offended some of you….I am sorry. It is not my intent to purposely upset our customers and our enthusiasts. However, when discussing a subject as passionate and inspiring as the Camaro….I guess that’s gonna happen sometimes unless I vow to never post again.

I will continue to keep listening…..and monitoring this site.

And I will continue to keep posting…unless, of course, the majority of you wish me not to.

And I may choose to hit back when you hit GM if, in my knowledge, your hit is not justified.

Meanwhile, a very personal note in closing: We’re coming to the end of another year. Please….have a safe and Happy Holiday Season. Enjoy the time with your family and loved ones. Now is a good time to tell those you love that they matter to you.
And lastly….please…..I’m begging you………don’t drink and drive. It isn’t worth it. Wear your seat belts…….we put them there for a reason.

Happy Holidays – and thank you, again, for your love and passion for the Camaro.

Red Planet signing off…………

Z284ever

12-16-2002, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Red Planet

…and I would never tell my eye doctor how to fix my vision……..

Gee Red your fingers must be tired!

....and, if you have a good eye doctor, he will seek your input for the best result.

;)

Meccadeth

12-16-2002, 01:50 AM

:bow: to the Red Planet
I sat back and enjoyed a bag of extreme butter popcorn and milk and still had more to read by the time I was done with it all.

Thanks for the reality punch there Scott, I sometimes forget that no matter what decisions GM makes, they make them because of several factors which are probably invisable to me or I have yet to consider.

On a personal note, you make me proud to be a member of Camaro enthusiasm, and for that matter, even the human race. You wake up everyday w/ ambition and a hope that will never be extinguished. You fight everyday for all of us who have no impact (besides in statistics) but wish to one day see a new Camaro. We are relying on you and you will not let us down. From the bottom of my Camaro heart, let me say thank you for giving me hope, and keeping the soul of the Camaro alive.

Doug Harden

12-16-2002, 08:16 AM

...........you musta' had two Starbucks specials to write all of that! :eek: ;)

Thanks for all the kind words and your passion too!! You never cease to amaze me with your energy and understanding of the issues.:bow:

The Camaro is in good hands indeed. :D

Happy Holidays buddy.....I'll see you in February...in Chicago!.......wait a minute.....February in a northern city??!!?? Maybe we oughta' think...............VEGAS baby!! LOL!

See you in Chitown......bbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrr........

BTW sent you a PM.......
;)

guionM

12-16-2002, 01:10 PM

To: The VP of Stirring the Pot,
From: VP of the Cattle Prod Brigade

Great post & really enjoyed reading it (yes a compliment :eek: ). It was really insightful, and cleared up alot of items and misconceptions (on my part as I'm sure with others as well).

Let me know your next trip to LA, San Diego, or the Bay Area. It'd be interesting to meet you (especially since you're from a couple of exits up on the Turnpike).

IZ28

12-16-2002, 02:16 PM

It was a good post yes, and I probably still disagree with alot while agreeing with only a little. I just hope we can get what we want in a 5th Gen and you take what we say into consideration. I also hope you start taking what people say on boards more seriously, its basically the same thing as talking to people in person, but they can say what they really want and say things they might not think of at a meeting. ;) :)

Darth Xed

12-16-2002, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
It was a good post yes, and I probably still disagree with alot while agreeing with only a little. I just hope we can get what we want in a 5th Gen and you take what we say into consideration. I also hope you start taking what people say on boards more seriously, its basically the same thing as talking to people in person, but they can say what they really want and say things they might not think of at a meeting. ;) :)

While I agree with you, Scott addressed this issue head on, and had several good points as to why it is sometimes hard to do so...

IZ28

12-16-2002, 02:26 PM

He visits this site alot though and should be able to tell who's for real/serious and who's not by now. I don't like the reasoning of, "I want to know your age and how much you make a year approach." Thats irrelevant, any1 at all can come up with great ideas and reasoning, and they don't have to be at a show to do it.

Darth Xed

12-16-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
He visits this site alot though and should be able to tell who's for real/serious and who's not by now. I don't like the reasoning of, "I want to know your age and how much you make a year approach." Thats irrelevant, any1 at all can come up with great ideas and reasoning, and they don't have to be at a show to do it.

Well... OK, by that logic then.... what about newcomers who are serious? Such as Pacer X? He is fairly new, but if Scott were to go by "who is real/serious by now", then Pacer X would never be looked at.

While age and job and income may be irrelevant for coming up with ideas .... it is relevant as to where those ideas should be applied.

It's called demographics .

By you saying that Scott should listen to sites like this over other sources is exactly this practice. You can't pick and choose certain applications for the practice....

IZ28

12-16-2002, 02:44 PM

Listen, regardless, if PacerX brings up good views that make sence then he brings up good views that make sence. It doesn't matter who he is, his age, where he works, or how long he's been here. Any1 can come up with something. If those thing make you value 1 persons opinion over another then I just don't know.

Darth Xed

12-16-2002, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
Listen, regardless, if PacerX brings up good views that makes sence then he brings up good views that make sence. It doesn't matter who he is or how long he's been here.

But YOU just said:

He visits this site alot though and should be able to tell who's for real/serious and who's not by now.

So by YOUR comment against Scott, you would have excluded Pacer X, but now you do another 180, saying it doesn't matter if he is an established poster!

THIS is exactly the type of thing that Scott is talking about....

Think before you speak.

IZ28

12-16-2002, 02:54 PM

I meant that for those of us that he knows somewhat by now. I also meant that he should be able to tell by the post if some1 has a good opinion or knows something and that it really doesn't matter how established they are. YOU brought in the established stuff.

Darth Xed

12-16-2002, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
I meant that for those of us that he knows somewhat. I was SAYING that he should be able to tell by the post if some1 has a good opinion or knows something and that it really doesn't matter how established they are. YOU brought in the established stuff.

<Beating head against brick wall>

IZ28

12-16-2002, 03:02 PM

Whatever dude, you know what I mean so stop making things difficult.

Of course he'll take things said by members he has been here with more and might agree with more into consideration, Im just saying not to limit it to only certian people, to also not disregard something said by some1 not a set age, salary, whatever, or who is also new or not. You don't really have to "know" them, great things can come from any1, I'm sure plenty of people at the shows are morons in person, LOL, were the "group of owners" that approved the 4th Gen's the correct age and all the other stuff?? If so, I don't wanna be that. :)

Darth Xed

12-16-2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
Whatever dude, you know what I mean so stop making things difficult.

Of course he'll take things said by members he has been here with more and might agree with more into consideration, Im just saying not to limit it to only certian people, to also not disregard something said by some1 not a set age, salary, whatever, or who is also new or not. You don't really have to "know" them, great things can come from any1, I'm sure plenty of people at the shows are morons in person, LOL, were the "group of owners" that approved the 4th Gen's the correct age and all the other stuff?? If so, I don't wanna be that. :)

I really try to take what you say seriously, as I do with everyone...

But, you just don't want to hear what anyone else has to say unless it is what you had previosly proclaimed to be Gospel... which is ironic considering we are talking about listening to certain people, or anyone...

"Thirds Gens are the best, period" ~IZ28
"Fourth Gens suck, period" ~IZ28
"Red Planet is wrong, period" ~IZ28

You either do not understand what other people are saying, or you don't want to...

I'm not saying you are wrong, but you need to listen to other people....

IZ28

12-16-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I really try to take what you say seriously, as I do with everyone...

But, you just don't want to hear what anyone else has to say unless it is what you had previosly proclaimed to be Gospel... which is ironic considering we are talking about listening to certain people, or anyone...

"Thirds Gens are the best, period" ~IZ28
"Fourth Gens suck, period" ~IZ28
"Red Planet is wrong, period" ~IZ28

You either do not understand what other people are saying, or you don't want to...

I'm not saying you are wrong, but you need to listen to other people....

I do, and I and any1 else can put their own perspective on a situation if they feel, thats why its a DISCUSSION. Show me a post where I have said those things exactly, the only time I said right out I felt RP was wrong was when he gave the impression of not listening to anything said on the boards. Don't go quoting people with things taken out of context. We all have our OPINION's. Plenty of others do/say the same. Everything has its advantages/disadvantages and its important to discuss both due to the topic of this board. Maybe you don't want to listen since you are so quick to agree with RP and don't want to even think otherwise. But I am trying to take you seriously. And maybe you don't want to understand that I'm saying yeah its good to be more confident in the people here or anywhere that he trusts the views of by now, (regulars most probably) but don't dismiss others either. Especially because of who they are or might be.

Fbodfather

12-16-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
He visits this site alot though and should be able to tell who's for real/serious and who's not by now. I don't like the reasoning of, "I want to know your age and how much you make a year approach." Thats irrelevant, any1 at all can come up with great ideas and reasoning, and they don't have to be at a show to do it.

:confused:

Uhhhh...............no.

Unless one is psychic, there is no way to tell who is who unless I've met them.

I have no idea of who you are.........sorry....don't mean to upset you.......

Nothing wrong with ideas......but I think you need to re-read what I said about "knowing the customer."

IZ28

12-16-2002, 04:28 PM

What does it matter who they are as long as they have good ideas?? You hear a good idea and thats it. Do you think if I ever meet you in person I'm going to tell you my age and what I do?! I could care less. I wanna talk about the CAMARO. :cool: And no I've never met you in person but heres why. In an E-Mail I sent you asking a Third Gen Camaro history question (I think it was about who designed them) which you gave a nice reply too, (not sure if I specificed I was IZ28 from CZ28.com or not, think I did though) you asked me if I was gonna be at an upcoming meeting, don't recall which it was. I replyed with no, but asked if you were ever gonna be in my area and you never got back to me, thats why I haven't "met" you in person. I would like to, and I know you are busy and can't recall all of your E-Mails, but I have no idea what your schedule is.

I feel here is just as good or a better place though, maybe not as much for you, but for us it is. Anyway. :)

Z28Wilson

12-16-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
What does it matter who they are as long as they have good ideas??

A "good" idea is only really "good" if it comes from someone who has both the means AND the desire to buy the product. Demographics is what it's all about, that's all Darth and Red are saying. Do you represent a wide range of buyers or are you the hardcore 20 year old who couldn't care less about comfort, ergonomics, etc. Would you even be able to afford a new Camaro? These are legit questions. If you were trying to sell a product would you ask for input from people you aren't even sure could buy it? You may think you have all the solutions for a 5th Gen, but would those ideas sell to the masses? 500 HP and a suspension harder than a 10 year old Christmas fruitcake may be just the thing for you but are you able to spend $35 grand for it? Are there many people out there that are willing to? It takes more in-depth study to develop a car than just listening to random people on the net. Not that this forum isn't important, but the reality is you, I, and almost everyone else here are RANDOM people. So this is why Red encourages everyone to get to a show whenever possible and talk with him. Like I said I have met him once and was very impressed at how easily accessable and personable he was, even in the midst of one HECTIC morning at the Brickyard. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk about the next car. Eh, maybe next year. :)

IZ28

12-17-2002, 12:16 AM

LOL, some good lines in that post, but yeah I care about it all. I don't even think the passion I have for this car can even be questioned, especially by people who know me. They might think I'm a little crazy with it, (as RP has said people think about him) but I call it passion. I get what you're saying about demographic, but I just hope he listens to every1 and any1 everywhere regardless of anything, thats all. I've heard some great suggestions and ideas from people you'd never think you would from all places, at car shows and cruise nights mostly, even import drivers/ricers that really want 1.

Fbodfather

12-17-2002, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by guionM
To: The VP of Stirring the Pot,
From: VP of the Cattle Prod Brigade

Let me know your next trip to LA, San Diego, or the Bay Area. It'd be interesting to meet you (especially since you're from a couple of exits up on the Turnpike).

I'll be in L.A. for the autoshow...not sure when I'm arriving and when I'm leaving, but perhaps we can meet with a few enthusiasts and have a drink or dinner.

Meccadeth

12-18-2002, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Red Planet
I'll be in L.A. for the autoshow...not sure when I'm arriving and when I'm leaving, but perhaps we can meet with a few enthusiasts and have a drink or dinner.

You wouldn't happen to be going to Detroit the next week would you? :D

Fbodfather

12-18-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Meccadeth
You wouldn't happen to be going to Detroit the next week would you? :D

I live in Grosse Pointe.......office is in the RenCen....so while I travel on business extensively, Detroit is home at this point.

--will be at Cobo on and off throughout the NAIAS.........

formula79

12-18-2002, 11:13 AM

And the Assmonkey F-body enthusiast of 2002 award goes too......

*drum roll*

IZ28!

:p

Opinions are like *******s everyone has one....

Seems you take yourself and your opinions way to seriously.

In short it's fine to have ignorant biased opinions...just realize you make yourself look worse the more you advertise them;)

guionM

12-18-2002, 02:36 PM

IZ28

12-18-2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by formula79
And the Assmonkey F-body enthusiast of 2002 award goes too......

*drum roll*

IZ28!

:p

Opinions are like *******s everyone has one....

Seems you take yourself and your opinions way to seriously.

In short it's fine to have ignorant biased opinions...just realize you make yourself look worse the more you advertise them;)

:bs:

I think thats you dude, always claiming about how you told us things way ahead of every1 else constantly, (THAT becomes tiring) and how you seem to think you know whats going on more than every1 else here when you don't. The sooner you learn to be not so full of yourself, the better you'll be. So quit tooting your own horn all the time and consider yourself for your own awards. ;)

An opinion can't really be opinion unless it has some bias now can it?? I only get like that when discussing these topics like Z28 vs. SS and the Gens (even 5th) if you'll notice, but I explained why earlier, I just gotta!! Almost can't help it!! Seriously though, keep the BS comments like in your previous post to yourself. If you have something thats off topic and stupid to say it shoud be taken off of the boards with a PM or not said at all.

JasonD

12-18-2002, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
If you have something thats off topic and stupid to say it shoud be taken off of the boards with a PM or not said at all.

Not to be directed to anyone in particular from me, but I do request that people adhere to this or I will have to close this thread.

Please keep it cool, everyone.

formula79

12-18-2002, 09:39 PM

Last time I checked I am not wrong very often (though I have been). I guess what gets to me is I will spend time posting what i hear will happen and I get ignored or flames...then when it does happen everyone gets mad because I pointed out that that though you didn't belive me I was right. I cover GM as a hobby and it is very hard at times. Seems like what was gonna happen today changes tommorow...guess thats the risk you run posting rumors. I was told by someone who I considered a reliable source that the Grand Prix would have 280 HP at all cost per Bob Lutz...so I published it...when it didnt happen because the transaxle couldn't survive I didn't hear the end of it. It's all the fun of covering GM.
I guess what pisses me off is people on here think they know more than they do about what is going on with GM. I have put alot of time running the phones at GM and talking to people and such...and it pisses me off when some Joe blow who makes pencils for a living tells me I am wrong of full of ****. It has seriously made me consider wether or not all the effort I put in (on average 30 hours a week) is worth it to me or the people I neglect. I dunno...sorry to rant guys..

Originally posted by IZ28
:bs:

I think thats you dude, always claiming about how you told us things way ahead of every1 else constantly, (THAT becomes tiring) and how you seem to think you know whats going on more than every1 else here when you don't. The sooner you learn to be not so full of yourself, the better you'll be. So quit tooting your own horn all the time and consider yourself for your own awards. ;)

An opinion can't really be opinion unless it has some bias now can it?? I only get like that when discussing these topics like Z28 vs. SS and the Gens (even 5th) if you'll notice, but I explained why earlier, I just gotta!! Almost can't help it!! Seriously though, keep the BS comments like in your previous post to yourself. If you have something thats off topic and stupid to say it shoud be taken off of the boards with a PM or not said at all.

guionM

12-19-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by formula79
....I was told by someone who I considered a reliable source that the Grand Prix would have 280 HP at all cost per Bob Lutz...so I published it...when it didnt happen because the transaxle couldn't survive I didn't hear the end of it. It's all the fun of covering GM.....

I'll independently confirm that. I corresponded with an individual who actually worked on the Grand Prix after it's touchups (the original design for the next Grand Prix had a late hour restyling up front & the sides were touched up as well). Bob Lutz was seemingly hellbound to have 280hp, and was going to run it with that even though GM powertrain had serious issues with that. Still don't know if the decision to go with less was his, or someone else's.

Keeping good relations with official sources, and running a news letter doesn't always give you the best and most up to date information (you aren't told everything, and if you come across a goldmine accidently from someone else, you may get cut off or have certain access revoked if you print it), and I can understand the frustration of one higher up saying one thing, then comming here and hearing something different from someone else. Just let time separate who's reliable as a second source, & who's full of BS.

Realize, also, that the danger of relying only on high sources for information is that, they won't tip their hand to you before their ready, and they will seemingly deny things that may infact be true (ie: "There won't be Miata sized Camaro" is not saying that Solstice will be a shortened Camaro...as an example ;)).

Finally, don't make the mistake of always using someone's job as a measurement how accurate their information is. Anybody can meet anyone, and everyone can happen into information accidently. That's how I got started. :)

Don't worry about the rant Brand. Just don't get sore lips blowing that horn of yours, and it'll be right. :D