"Just because the Mustang doesn't have competition".. WTF!

WTF! THis line in that Mustang commercial had me steamed! :mad:

FU!! Dang I can't wait till the new Camaro is out! I can't believe GM just handed the muscle car scene over to Ford! -Except the Vette of course...

Dang this commercial pisses me off! :mad::bang:

So, your pissed at Ford for stating the obvious??? Or, you are pissed at GM for not giving Ford any competition???

BTW, the last I knew, the Vette was a sports car, not a muscle car.

Just 2 years left to wait (ok, 1.5-2).

5 years without any competition and they're still behind. That's Bold Moves....

5 years without any competition and they're still behind. That's Bold Moves....

Don't know about them being "behind". The GT isn't impressive but it doesn't have to be since it's their base performance model. The 03/04 Mach1's put up good numbers, and we all know about the 03/04 Cobra's and new GT500's.

I don't see why the commercial would piss anyone off or why that anger would be directed at Ford. They've had that segment all to themselves the last 5 years thanks to GM. But that's about to change...Competition is coming now in the form of Camaro and Challenger:metal:.

I found it funny. They are bragging that they have no competition, it just sounds funny to me. Not to mention the fact that if they had any, they most likely would not be ahead of it.

I found it funny. They are bragging that they have no competition, it just sounds funny to me. Not to mention the fact that if they had any, they most likely would not be ahead of it.



Just in sales,which is not important at all marc,is it.Just look at how camaro's low sales volume has kept it going all these years................oh wait,they stopped making camaro's back in '02 didn't they?Well, keep the chin up till '09 or '10.:rolleyes:

There was a commercial back in 2003 or 2004 in which Ford claimed to be "the last ponycar standing", and a thread just like this was started then too.

Here we find ourselves almost 4 years later... with the same situation and the same ding-dongs complaining about the same things... no lessons learned, no ground gained. (And I wonder why the Chinese are kicking our @sses so badly in everything they do... when we can't even educate our own people on basic marketing and manufacturing principles with examples. :rolleyes: )

Thank goodness GM has a good game plan for the next Camaro. For the first time in a long time, I have far more confidence in GM's ability to bring out a car that can survive in the market, than I have in the people's ability to show GM what they want/need. For so long, GM crammed cars down our throats -kind of "like it or not, here it is". Now, I think GM actually has a better grip on what sells than do many of the people who will likely buy the product.
Goofy, huh?:confused:

Oh well. I'm not touching this thread again.
We passed this basic subject years ago.:dead:

I found it funny. They are bragging that they have no competition, it just sounds funny to me. Not to mention the fact that if they had any, they most likely would not be ahead of it.

I think that simply assuming had there been some competition that Ford would be behind would be a mistake. The fourth gen LS1 cars were meeting their match in the Mach 1. In 2002 the 2003 Cobra showed up, and consolidated the fact that Ford wasn't willing to play #2 without a fight.


Let's assume there was a Camaro for sale today:
At the V6 level it would be anyone's game.

At the entry V8 level GM would have 400ish HP LS2 to Ford's 300ish HP 4.6.

BUT, at the high end, since GM doesn't have a Vette that trumps the Z06 yet, there most likely wouldn't be a 500 (+) horsepower Camaro on the market. Even if the Camaro was to get a LS7, the Camaro will be chasing a moving target. With Ford's plans to sell 650 ~ 750 horsepower Mustangs, will GM be willing to follow with the Camaro? My bet is on No. They will use the Corvette to compete with those Mustangs. At the end of the day, the Mustang will be top dog, just like it was in 2002 when the Camaro went away.

1) This commercial is old news.

2) Why should you really care what they say? It isn't like they aren't stating fact.

No reason to be angry at Ford in this case, but instead the nutless wonders at GM who were responsible for the death of the F-Body....

Damn that Chrylser. I thought the hemi cuda would be out any day now! Whats it been. 30 years

</sarcasm>

That commercial cracks me up. To me it says "Hey remember the Mustang? We're still going strong... please buy us."

I just got back from Las Vegas. The most common rental car on the strip was the Mustang Convertible. Then there's that new Autotrader.com ad featuring the Mustang. Sounds to me like Hertz is the only one buying them. ;)

You know, I was around in 2002 and I don't ever remember any Mustang out running a F-body. Yeah, the Cobra was king in 03, but it was the king of nothing. It had no subjects to rule over. It's kind of like the old saying, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

The Cobra was on the showroom floor at the same time that the '02 F twins were still being produced. I love the "even though they were sold at the same time the Cobra was a newer model year so it doesn't count" ricer style crap that
has been floating around on this board for the past 5 years:rolleyes:

IF the F-body soldiered on into the 2003 model year, does anyone really think GM would've kept it ahead of the Cobra? :no:

What engine would they even have had at that time to do it? The LS6 wouldn't have been up to the task in a 3500+ pound F-body.....

Quit whining. Ford dropped the A-bomb with the 2003 Cobra. Doesn't mean the 5th Gen can't answer it though. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride!

IF the F-body soldiered on into the 2003 model year, does anyone really think GM would've kept it ahead of the Cobra? :no:

What engine would they even have had at that time to do it? The LS6 wouldn't have been up to the task in a 3500+ pound F-body.....

Quit whining. Ford dropped the A-bomb with the 2003 Cobra. Doesn't mean the 5th Gen can't answer it though. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride!

x 2. As much of a Camaro fan that I am and as much as I dislike Mustangs, I can see that the '03 Cobra is a superior car performance wise. Hell, there's a lot of cars that are faster than my Z-28 but you don't see me getting my panties in a wad over it. GM gave you a great platform with the LS1 Camaro...if you want to beat a Cobra, throw some mods at your F-body and do the deed.

There was a commercial back in 2003 or 2004 in which Ford claimed to be "the last ponycar standing", and a thread just like this was started then too.

Here we find ourselves almost 4 years later... with the same situation and the same ding-dongs complaining about the same things... no lessons learned, no ground gained. (And I wonder why the Chinese are kicking our @sses so badly in everything they do... when we can't even educate our own people on basic marketing and manufacturing principles with examples. :rolleyes: )

:bow: :bow:

There are some people who never learn PP. There was a old Monte Python skit I recall that took place in medevial times where a knight was in a sword fight and kept losing limbs, and even though he had his arms and legs cut off (and his head too if I remember) he kept yelling for the competitor to come back and fight, he had only a flesh wound!

Some of the guys here are the same way. Mustang basically handed Camaro it's head, wound up to be the last ponycar standing, outsold the F-bodies combined by MORE than 2 to one, sold more V6 Mustangs to men than all the men who bought all the Camaros and Firebirds combined, sent Camaro to the boneyard 5 years ago, and basically performed all the market research and set the bar for the 2nd gen Camaro....

... yet there are still whiners who pee themselves whenever something comes up that states the obvious, or (even more incredibly... or stupidly).. like to point to performance numbers, as if that's matters .

Camaro died. Mustang is still around... uninterrupted. We lost. End of story.

Now instead of being dumb talking about the past, lets focus on getting the next Camaro right.

If getting the Camaro "right" to anyone is just about putting as much horsepower in the thing as humanly possible, then it's no wonder Japan is selling so many cars here & we're becoming the "biatch" of the Chinese. :lol:

Although threads like this I find both pathetic and funny (some people never learn), this is also a dead subject with no point. Camaro comes out in late 2008. It will be a far better package (and hopefully better made) than the 4th gen. Ford Mustang will be the only pony car till then.

Get over it. ;)

:bow: :bow:

There are some people who never learn PP. There was a old Monte Python skit I recall that took place in medevial times where a knight was in a sword fight and kept losing limbs, and even though he had his arms and legs cut off (and his head too if I remember) he kept yelling for the competitor to come back and fight, he had only a flesh wound!



One of the best scenes from one of the best movies ever made. Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I love it, and the analogy is quite fitting here. (unfortunately) :cool:

Please don't get over it. I enjoy reading these threads. :)

If getting the Camaro "right" to anyone is just about putting as much horsepower in the thing as humanly possible, then it's no wonder Japan is selling so many cars here & we're becoming the "biatch" of the Chinese. :lol:

This is hitting the nail on the head.

I suppose some on this site think that the *** cars suck and are no good beause they don't have 400 rwhp. Hence why they are not selling too good lately, huh? :yes:

WE KNOW this is an enthusiasts site - granted... given... acknowledged... etc.
STILL, as an enthusiast, you should be that much MORE knowledgeable about the car, it's platform, it's restrictions, why it is the way it is, etc. - all the reasons why the car is doped-down to make it mass-produceable, fairly flexible to appeal to a broader market, and cheap! Especially the latter! Being an enthusiast gives you special rights to brag or to demand better parts from the OEM, but it doesn't give you the right to be excluded from daily operating rules, or stupid about marketing, or why a platform has restrictions on it.

Just kills me to continuously hear the song of "Mine is faster from the factory..." , and if it isn't the fastest, it's a failure.
Blah.

(I wonder sometimes how some people actually make it through life with all the unexplained things that occur. I have a decent dose of education AND common sense, yet I still catch a curve ball from time to time that sends me reeling... so how does a clueless Joe stumple through life swinging at anything pitched his way?!?! :shrug: )

Back to the point...
I'd rather see the Camaro come out with a good-performing V6 with about 200-220hp that is bullit-proof, gets 30+ mpg, and is a little "modifyable" than to see Camaro with a 500hp LS7. If you get the my first option, the latter will ineitably come due to great sales, interest, and longevity, but if you get the latter, the car will be short lived.
Want an example? How about a retro-themed 240 hp V8 2-seater Thunderbird.
Came, went, and almost nobody knew it except those who craved one (a.k.a "enthusiasts") Now what do those enthusiasts have to be excited about?

AS a side note, I will be finishing the book "Iron Fist, Lead Foot" tonight if all goes well at home.
Great read on the development of the Terminator.

SVT had a Camaro SS in their shop as one of the benchmark vehicles for the Terminator. Back in 2001, Coletti basically mandated that the '03 Cobra would beat the SS specifically in every major category - performance, handling, braking, comfort, even pricing.
So it's fair to say that an '03/'03 comparison would favor the Cobra if it were around for such an event.

Coletti actually expected GM to step the Camaro up a notch in '03 or '04 - prior to finding out it was finally being axed after years of speculation. He was actually disappointed in it's demise, and spoke publicly about it. The guy loves competition.

Lastly, I don't think it's fair to compare the Cobra and Camaro directly - no more than comparing the Cobra to the Vette. These are different cars marketed in different ways. The Camaro was a FAR better value than the Cobra in Z28 form - damn-near as fast, and less money for sure. Likewise, the Mach 1 v Camaro. And then likewise the GT versus Mach 1.

We have to constantly pull ourselves back and remember that not everyone is all about numbers... some people just want to feel the pull of a good V8 on their butt when merging onto a highway. It's car-nuts that keep putting apples-to-oranges in these comparisons, and some of them need a reality check IMO.

I think that simply assuming had there been some competition that Ford would be behind would be a mistake. The fourth gen LS1 cars were meeting their match in the Mach 1. In 2002 the 2003 Cobra showed up, and consolidated the fact that Ford wasn't willing to play #2 without a fight.


Let's assume there was a Camaro for sale today:
At the V6 level it would be anyone's game.

At the entry V8 level GM would have 400ish HP LS2 to Ford's 300ish HP 4.6.

BUT, at the high end, since GM doesn't have a Vette that trumps the Z06 yet, there most likely wouldn't be a 500 (+) horsepower Camaro on the market. Even if the Camaro was to get a LS7, the Camaro will be chasing a moving target. With Ford's plans to sell 650 ~ 750 horsepower Mustangs, will GM be willing to follow with the Camaro? My bet is on No. They will use the Corvette to compete with those Mustangs. At the end of the day, the Mustang will be top dog, just like it was in 2002 when the Camaro went away.

This just kills me. Lets get the same cars on an auto x course and see what happens. I would put my 9 year old SS up against the GT 500 anyday. Who would be king then? Its not all about going in a straight line.

This just kills me. Lets get the same cars on an auto x course and see what happens. I would put my 9 year old SS up against the GT 500 anyday. Who would be king then? Its not all about going in a straight line.

Stock for stock.... or can I modify the GT500 like your SS too???

Can't people just enjoy their cars anymore... or is just a giant pissing match..

Stock for stock.... or can I modify the GT500 like your SS too???

Can't people just enjoy their cars anymore... or is just a giant pissing match..

QFT. Like I said earlier, my Z-28 isn't as fast as a lot of cars on the road today, perhaps is even considered slow by today's standards, but I still enjoy the crap out of it. I still talk crap here and there, but that's mainly just out of fun with my friends.

You know, I was around in 2002 and I don't ever remember any Mustang out running a F-body. Yeah, the Cobra was king in 03, but it was the king of nothing. It had no subjects to rule over. It's kind of like the old saying, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

Apparently you might have been around, but you obviously weren't paying attention. Do note that there wasn't a 2002 Cobra... Why was that? Oh yeah, because the 2003 Cobra was released in mid 2002 as a 2003 model. I don't have to explain to you that the Camaro was still around in mid 2002.

:rolleyes:

Like others stated, do you honestly believe that GM would have upped the game if the Camaro would have been in production in 2003? They would have had to use a hopped up LS1 (IMHO this wouldn't have happened due to cost to engineer and package the options) or they would have had to use the LS6 (IMHO this wouldn't have happened because it would have deflated the Z06's status).

I think an LS6 F-body would have been good for mid-high 12s, easily..

I wasn't talking about sales figures, I'm not concerned with sales figures wars of the past, only power wars. When I think of "competition", the first thing I think of is the car itself, not how much it sold. I am concerned, however, with new Camaro sales figures, because every bit counts to keep it back from the dead.

And as far as power, of course the Cobra's were close, matched or better than the F-body, but weren't they priced much closer to the Corvette than the F-body?

So please, save your rolling eyes smiley, this isn't the lounge, be civil.....dickhead.;)

I wasn't talking about sales figures, I'm not concerned with sales figures wars of the past, only power wars. When I think of "competition", the first thing I think of is the car itself, not how much it sold. I am concerned, however, with new Camaro sales figures, because every bit counts to keep it back from the dead.

And as far as power, of course the Cobra's were close, matched or better than the F-body, but weren't they priced much closer to the Corvette than the F-body?

So please, save your rolling eyes smiley, this isn't the lounge, be civil.....dickhead.;)



bedtime marc.you gotta get up early for summer school.Don't forget to comb your mullet after you pull into the parking lot.

The problem is, you can't talk about one without the other............... and, frankly, only one really counts.

Hint............ it isn't he who wins the power war.

All the "my car is faster than your car," on the internet, accomplishes, is seeing who has the biggest d*ck.

Basically, get the sales, and the hp will follow (see GT500........... oh, thats right, now hp doesn't count, but hp/lb ratio does........... ahhhh, I see).

Lets just be realistic, and admit that the Gen 4 Camaro was a nice, fast, cheap, car.............. that very few wanted to actually own.

The Gen 5 will hopefully correct this problem.

Yeppers, those Mustangs sure do suck.............. but I can go out and buy one of those sucky cars right now.

I've never really cared if someone has a faster car than me, I just want the Camaro base v8 to be a better car than it's Mustang counterpart. I'm from the Camaro camp, it's just my nature.

bedtime marc.you gotta get up early for summer school.Don't forget to comb your mullet after you pull into the parking lot.
Wow, great reply. :blah: Too bad between the two of us, you are probably the one most likely to have sported a mullet in your lifetime, probably whilst driving a Camaro or Mustang in the 80's (yes, people called/call both chevy and ford guys mullet heads).

And yes it is my bedtime, I have to get up early because I am working on 2 mustangs, !GASP!

Chevy is stupid. I just read in my new Car & Driver that Chevy announced it now realizes due to the success of the Mustang that there is money to be made with the Camaro. DUH!

It pisses me off to that they just handed thousands of would be Camaro buyers over to Ford when they stopped production. I'm concerned with Chevy's head. I mean if it had one.

Chevy is stupid. I just read in my new Car & Driver that Chevy announced it now realizes due to the success of the Mustang that there is money to be made with the Camaro. DUH!

It pisses me off to that they just handed thousands of would be Camaro buyers over to Ford when they stopped production. I'm concerned with Chevy's head. I mean if it had one.

Honestly, I belive the 5th gen will be better since it had many years since the 4th gen that they could dedicate to making the new car better. If it had just been a steady production from one model to another, we most likely would have gotten another substandard car since they would have had to split up resources between keeping the 4th gen alive while they developed the 5th. I think the hibernation (not hiatus, those are short naps) between generations will be the best thing that happened to the Camaro.

Chevy is stupid. I just read in my new Car & Driver that Chevy announced it now realizes due to the success of the Mustang that there is money to be made with the Camaro. DUH!

It pisses me off to that they just handed thousands of would be Camaro buyers over to Ford when they stopped production. I'm concerned with Chevy's head. I mean if it had one.

:yes:

And as far as power, of course the Cobra's were close, matched or better than the F-body, but weren't they priced much closer to the Corvette than the F-body?

In the model years that the Cobra and the F-body were both available for sale, the Cobra was priced very close to a loaded F-body (be it a T/A or Z28). Cars like the T/A WS6 were somewhat more expensive than the Cobra, while lower-optioned Z28s and Formulas were less than the Cobra.

As a reference, my 99 T/A had an MSRP of $27,810. My 99 Cobra had an MSRP of $27,995.

Bob

I see, thanks for clearing that up, Bob. For some reason I remember it differently.

In the model years that the Cobra and the F-body were both available for sale, the Cobra was priced very close to a loaded F-body (be it a T/A or Z28). Cars like the T/A WS6 were somewhat more expensive than the Cobra, while lower-optioned Z28s and Formulas were less than the Cobra.

As a reference, my 99 T/A had an MSRP of $27,810. My 99 Cobra had an MSRP of $27,995.

Bob

I think the Cobra's are overpriced, but they were very limited in production so Ford had to make more money per car. I have an IROC modded pretty good but I also wanted a Cobra. I setteled on a Mach 1.

It pisses me off to that they just handed thousands of would be Camaro buyers over to Ford when they stopped production. I'm concerned with Chevy's head. I mean if it had one.

I really doubt they handed that many true F-bod fans off, the ones that jumped ship are probably just as likely to switch to something esle or come back into the fold when F5 comes along.

Chevy lost a buyer in me. . . with my freakin' $2000 in GM Card points.

2 weeks ago I bought a 2007 Subaru STI ( here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Fatheadpics/CAR )

My list of possible cars (in this order):
Camaro Z28
2008 STI
2007 STI & Pontiac G8
RWD Zeta Impala

Unfortunately, I had to pull the trigger asap, and it doesn't sound like GM is close to producing the freakin' camaro. . . and they STILL haven't shown a production G8 or released pricing.

So, here I am. (btw, 1000 miles in 2 weeks, and I'm very happy. Previous fast car was a 6spd LS1 z28 which went 12.1@117 on 245 DRs. The handling & braking of the STI makes up for the lack of straight line performance.)

Ford's just stating fact unfortunately. However soon enough they'll have plenty of competition, and not just from GM. Soon enough even the Koreans will be fighting for a piece of the pony car pie. If priced right, then we're gonna see how great the Mustang and Camaro names really stand in Americans' minds :(

And as much as I love my 4th gen, it was the red headed stepchild of GM at the time and it shows. The 5th gen Camaro is looking to be the darling of GM right next to Corvette so I'm looking forward to the future pony car war.

Of course Im also pulling for Ford and GM to stay afloat so we HAVE a Mustang and a Camaro for future years. :death:

Cant blame the current people at GM for a decesion made over a decade ago. You can only shake your fist, it wont change anything. There is a saying at work. Everyone has problems and difficulties. Worry about the problem that you can fix within 24-48 hours.
Nothing you can do to get upset and in an uproar that will make Camaro start production tomorrow morning.
As for Cobra, it was close but never could keep up that well with an equally loaded Fbody. By 03 with the SC motors, the Cobra's price was much higher then your average Fbody.
Yeah, I saw that commercial but I also thought to myself that the current GT Mustang can just now keep up with cars that have been out for half a decade.
The GT500 is way too off the scale to compete with anything BUT the Corvette in which it has a tough time keeping up.

Cant blame the current people at GM for a decesion made over a decade ago. You can only shake your fist, it wont change anything. There is a saying at work. Everyone has problems and difficulties. Worry about the problem that you can fix within 24-48 hours.
Nothing you can do to get upset and in an uproar that will make Camaro start production tomorrow morning.
As for Cobra, it was close but never could keep up that well with an equally loaded Fbody. By 03 with the SC motors, the Cobra's price was much higher then your average Fbody.
Yeah, I saw that commercial but I also thought to myself that the current GT Mustang can just now keep up with cars that have been out for half a decade.
The GT500 is way too off the scale to compete with anything BUT the Corvette in which it has a tough time keeping up.

Yeah - Mustangs suck and Cobras suck too!
Always have, always will!
They never got NOTHING right - stupid cars! Stupid Ford! :death:


Yeah Beavis... Slow is dumb... fast rocks! huhuh-huh. :metal:








I don't know. What do you say... how can you explain it again after the 17,419th time.:shrug:

Chevy lost a buyer in me. . . with my freakin' $2000 in GM Card points.

2 weeks ago I bought a 2007 Subaru STI ( here: http://picasaweb.google.com/Fatheadpics/CAR )

My list of possible cars (in this order):
Camaro Z28
2008 STI
2007 STI & Pontiac G8
RWD Zeta Impala

Unfortunately, I had to pull the trigger asap, and it doesn't sound like GM is close to producing the freakin' camaro. . . and they STILL haven't shown a production G8 or released pricing.

So, here I am. (btw, 1000 miles in 2 weeks, and I'm very happy. Previous fast car was a 6spd LS1 z28 which went 12.1@117 on 245 DRs. The handling & braking of the STI makes up for the lack of straight line performance.)


:D :D :D

I pulled the same trigger last year. 08 STi is going to be butt ugly[ier] and only a wagon so it's probably a good thing you got the 07.