toyota tundra camshaft failures

for such an anti-toyota forum i was rather surprised when even a search for "tundra" didn't come up with this as being posted already.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50065

Mark Rechtin
Automotive News
May 28, 2007 - 1:00 am

LOS ANGELES -- A batch of camshaft failures in 5.7-liter V-8 engines has dinged the launch of the Toyota Tundra pickup.

Camshafts in 20 engines have snapped, says Toyota spokesman Mike Michels. The outside camshaft supplier, which Toyota declined to identify, has traced the problem to "a metallurgical defect in the casting, a flaw in the metal which they have corrected," he says.

To date, Toyota has built 30,000 of the engines, and the company is determining how many might be affected. Michels says that it was "an early batch," and that "Toyota is confident in the production from that point on."

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070528/MANUFACTURING/70525073/1128

Ouch - the one area where Toyota looked so good compared to the competition - its drivetrain.

Frame - not so much
Interior - hell no
Gas mileage - not really

I wonder if it really was just isolated to a small batch, or if it this something that will affect all/most of the V8 motors sold so far?

The more I hear of the engines in these things, the less I like them.

I'm pretty sure they have timing belts instead of chains as well. Not what I would expect for a truck engine that is supposed to be reliable.

I'm wondering how big of a problem it is as well. 20 doesn't seem too significant if it is out of 30,000 motors already built.

"At least they found it quickly" will be the rallying cry here.

"At least they found it quickly" will be the rallying cry here.
well, if it is indeed limited to only 0.06% of the motors produced then yes, that might just be a valid response :)

although imho it'd be hard to believe only 20 cams were produced with this "bad casting"

Many fullsize pickup only give you one good camshaft, but you wanted at least 3. Introducing the all new Toyota Tundra :lol:



for those that don't know GM and Dodge pickups have only 1 cam in the block

Many fullsize pickup only give you one good camshaft, but you wanted at least 3. Introducing the all new Toyota Tundra :lol:



for those that don't know GM and Dodge pickups have only 1 cam in the block
a new method of variable valve timing?

:)

although imho it'd be hard to believe only 20 cams were produced with this "bad casting"

Only way to find out, is to wait and see if more go kaboom, like a 10bolt..;) :p

Only way to find out, is to wait and see if more go kaboom, like a 10bolt..;) :p

:yes:

Good. The toyota people pissed me off at an 'off road' tundra test drive.
Guy who I rode with was kind of a jerk and the truck didn't impress me.

Maybe it will motivate them to make it better, which forces the competition to get better and so on and so on.

How hard is it to make a cam shaft that doesn't break?

I'm wondering how big of a problem it is as well. 20 doesn't seem too significant if it is out of 30,000 motors already built.

I would think 20 camshafts snapping (same problem) this early in the introduction no matter how many produced is bad...

If they've got 20 now, I could see it climbing high fast once they start getting some more miles on them, people start ragging on them harder after the "new" wears off, and they start seeing "truck" duty pulling and hauling loads...

Ummm....... Ooops?

So how does that fit into the commercials?

Ummm....... Ooops?

So how does that fit into the commercials?

"You wanted a truck with a camshaft that doesn't break. Introducing the all new Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra."

My GM LS1 Hotcam had issues a few years ago.

The manufacturing process missed the hardening stage. We opened the engine, and the cam had grooves warn into the lobes. Metal shavings everywhere.

GM replaced my entire engine and had the dealership install a new Hotcam.

Mike
New ride: 2007 STI (because GM couldn't hurry w/ the Camaro or G8)

I'm pretty sure they have timing belts instead of chains as well. Not what I would expect for a truck engine that is supposed to be reliable.

I read somewhere that they are in fact interference engines, which have minimal piston to valve clearance. These engines would be very costly to fix should the timing belt go... or camshaft fail, even. :o

I read somewhere that they are in fact interference engines, which have minimal piston to valve clearance. These engines would be very costly to fix should the timing belt go... or camshaft fail, even. :o

I call 'em "zero tolerance" motors. I blew up a couple 22R's from broken timing chains. When the chain breaks, the cam/or cams stop and the valves are stuck in their position (some open) and the piston continues to move along with the crank and slaps the valves. This can also occur when the confused driver (me :lol: ) tries to crank the motor. The high speed wirring sound gives me a sick feeling in my gut :(

This is typical of most/all? overhead cam motors.

I call 'em "zero tolerance" motors. I blew up a couple 22R's from broken timing chains.

This is typical of most/all? overhead cam motors.

Yes but their power outputs are impressive. So impressive that buyers would generally believe that the engines are so much superior (i.e. read more powerful and efficient) than GM's best efforts. :rolleyes:

Yes but their power outputs are impressive. So impressive that buyers would generally believe that the engines are so much superior (i.e. read more powerful and efficient) than GM's best efforts. :rolleyes:
by "best efforts" are you referring to engines that are not in the same class?

by "best efforts" are you referring to engines that are not in the same class?

Same class eg HFV6 vs Camry V6 vs Nissan V6. The general impression is that scribes and consumers alike seem to believe the Japanese engines are 'superior'.

*del*

Same class eg HFV6 vs Camry V6 vs Nissan V6. The general impression is that scribes and consumers alike seem to believe the Japanese engines are 'superior'.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the Tundra engine. :)

*del*


Oh, I thought you were talking about the Tundra engine. :)

Are you crazy? There is no way any carmaker builds better V8s than GM!!! :D ;)

But has anyone head a public message on this either in newsprint or on TV??

No?


You know where I am going with this. :rolleyes: :mad:

I watch the news every day after work, the news station on the radio driving around at or around noon for national news and I have read the local paper every day for years. I must of missed it. It had to be on the front page of some paper or a bumper for some TV newscast..

Something along the lines of the usual for any Detroit cars....

"Problems again for Detroit as another problem is found for the battered automaker. Do you have one of the vehicles that has this defect?"

Nope have not heard that yet?????:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:

I don't care if its 10 cars or 10,000 Its still a major problem that Toyota advertises as a bulitproof reputation on thier cars and trucks. Well the armour just got a kink. Yet they hide it very VERY Well..or is it the media bias??? Yeaaa...:confused:

Detroit News is pretty big isn't it? Granted it is in Detroit's backyard, so they may be quicker than others to point out faults with Toyota...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070531/AUTO01/705310379/1148

this forum must be slowing down, it took 23 posts before someone started bitching about media bias.

I'm wondering how big of a problem it is as well. 20 doesn't seem too significant if it is out of 30,000 motors already built.

20 Might not seem significant, but it really could be. Say 1% (which is probably high) of the motors are put through the process that found this problem. That is 20 out of 300. 6.67%. That is high.

But this could be worse. This was something found in the casting of the cam shaft. This could be as high as 100% of the cams will have the problem and it is only a matter of time. It could be that only 6% or fewer could have the problem as well. Hard to really know the extent without being an insider.

But, I wouldn't be surprised to see a recall coming for some Tundra's here pretty soon.

I don't have a sub. to the website with the full article... were these 20 found during a test session, or were they trucks people bought and brought back to Toyota with broken camshafts?

I don't have a sub. to the website with the full article... were these 20 found during a test session, or were they trucks people bought and brought back to Toyota with broken camshafts?
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/news/toyota/tundra/camshaft/camshaft.html

(Banter about media bias)

http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&ncl=1116804519&hl=en

Is it getting even close to as much coverage as a wide-scale recall or a serious safety related recall? No. Should it? Of course not.

http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&ncl=1116804519&hl=en

Is it getting even close to as much coverage as a wide-scale recall or a serious safety related recall? No. Should it? Of course not.
b b b but its toyota! MEDIA BIAS! wait, what were we talking about again?

:)

What sucks is that (just like any mfg) it's not a design flaw, but a casting failure from an outside suplier. Engine sludge was a design flaw. This is not... well, not yet anyway....

I hate to see ANYONE buy a 30 or 40K truck and have the engine blow, no matter who made it :(

b b b but its toyota! MEDIA BIAS! wait, what were we talking about again?

:)
That's not in the same context of "media bias" we used to talk about here.

GM could have a minor failure and the media would cast the report as if they intended to kill as many kittens as possible. Then someone like Toyota would forget to intergrate child safety seat accomidations and the media would present it as "Toyota, the Mother Theresa of automakers, announced they were too busy building homes for the needy and helping cripple children raise kittens for the elderly and missed a feature that we at CNN arent sure is even necessary. Toyota will fix the problem as they always do because an orphan might need it..."

Its exaggerated for humor, but (everyone BUT) you get the point being made.

Publications and broadcasting compnanies have ways of wrapping words around a story to set a tone or embed a positive/negative feel to a current event story. What everyone at CZ28.com has complained about is they Always would throw dungeons into any GM news and happy, uplifting feelings into foriegn automaker news. Even if the news story itself was about a safety recall.

..and I feel like a 4th grade teacher for feeling compelled to explain that to you.

:lol:

That's not in the same context of "media bias" we used to talk about here.

GM could have a minor failure and the media would cast the report as if they intended to kill as many kittens as possible. Then someone like Toyota would forget to intergrate child safety seat accomidations and the media would present it as "Toyota, the Mother Theresa of automakers, announced they were too busy building homes for the needy and helping cripple children raise kittens for the elderly and missed a feature that we at CNN arent sure is even necessary. Toyota will fix the problem as they always do because an orphan might need it..."

Its exaggerated for humor, but (everyone BUT) you get the point being made.

Publications and broadcasting compnanies have ways of wrapping words around a story to set a tone or embed a positive/negative feel to a current event story. What everyone at CZ28.com has complained about is they Always would throw dungeons into any GM news and happy, uplifting feelings into foriegn automaker news. Even if the news story itself was about a safety recall.

OK... people here used to say that GM recalls were all over the papers and news but you'd hardly hear a peep about Toyota recalls. I've proven time and time again that they generally get about the same 'amount' of coverage assuming the size of the recall and seriousness (especially safety concerns) are similar.

So now it sounds like YOU are saying that while they get similar 'amounts' of coverage, that the media words or spins the article differently depending on the manufacturer in question.

Can you provide a couple of solid examples of this?

News.google.com will provide you will hundreds of articles.

A good example of media bias is to look at the 20 articles recovered in the search Threxx posted.

The titles include headlines such as:
Toyota catches engine killer in Tundra trucks
Toyota replaces faulty engines
Toyota fixing engine failures in new Tundra truck

Of the 20 articles so far:
9 - positive descriptions (Catches, Fixing, Repairing)
8 - negative (Recalled, Flaws etc)
3 - Ambiguous/Neutral

While most of the stories are just reprints of an original, it is interesting to see the flowery language used to describe a Toyota problem.

OK... people here used to say that GM recalls were all over the papers and news but you'd hardly hear a peep about Toyota recalls. I've proven time and time again that they generally get about the same 'amount' of coverage assuming the size of the recall and seriousness (especially safety concerns) are similar.

So now it sounds like YOU are saying that while they get similar 'amounts' of coverage, that the media words or spins the article differently depending on the manufacturer in question.

Can you provide a couple of solid examples of this?

News.google.com will provide you will hundreds of articles.

Google will give you many answers to anything.

In the past it was also proven here that GM safety recalls would recieve more on air time and more general online attention versus something of the same nature with a foriegn nameplate.

Im not going to go any further to "prove" anything because this is all just a "feel" I have based on my own perception of life. It just so happens that 98% of the regulars here have captured the same perception in their lives as well.

I would allow that as Toyota takes over #1 in more catagories they will be up on the crusifiction cross where GM was and somewhat still is. Not like before though..

this is all just a "feel" I have based on my own perception of life. It just so happens that 98% of the regulars here have captured the same perception in their lives as well.

I suggest reading this:
http://www.healthbolt.net/2007/02/14/26-reasons-what-you-think-is-right-is-wrong/

GM is an easy media target because financially they have been on a downward trajectory for 20-odd years. If they turn it around, the tone of any news article about them will suddenly become more positive.

(Oh, and BTW 20+ Grand Prix GTPs have had engine fires ... but we don't see three page threads about *that* here.)

A good example of media bias is to look at the 20 articles recovered in the search Threxx posted.

The titles include headlines such as:
Toyota catches engine killer in Tundra trucks
Toyota replaces faulty engines
Toyota fixing engine failures in new Tundra truck

Of the 20 articles so far:
9 - positive descriptions (Catches, Fixing, Repairing)
8 - negative (Recalled, Flaws etc)
3 - Ambiguous/Neutral

While most of the stories are just reprints of an original, it is interesting to see the flowery language used to describe a Toyota problem.

Thank you for proving my point exactly how the media interperates the situation.


exactly like graham said:
That's not in the same context of "media bias" we used to talk about here.

GM could have a minor failure and the media would cast the report as if they intended to kill as many kittens as possible. Then someone like Toyota would forget to intergrate child safety seat accomidations and the media would present it as "Toyota, the Mother Theresa of automakers, announced they were too busy building homes for the needy and helping cripple children raise kittens for the elderly and missed a feature that we at CNN arent sure is even necessary. Toyota will fix the problem as they always do because an orphan might need it..."

Its exaggerated for humor, but (everyone BUT) you get the point being made.

Publications and broadcasting compnanies have ways of wrapping words around a story to set a tone or embed a positive/negative feel to a current event story. What everyone at CZ28.com has complained about is they Always would throw dungeons into any GM news and happy, uplifting feelings into foriegn automaker news. Even if the news story itself was about a safety recall.

Anythign that has to do with a Detroit recall is almost always negative in approach.

If you dont want to call it media bias call it dirty laundry and that is what sells everything in the news. Especially when the subject is already down and hurting. The U.S. auto indistry is that and people know it. So they report it much more pronounced. This is just a blip on the screen cus its is Toyota.

Your telling me the headlines for MT: TotY would be all peachy and sweet if it was a cam in the Silverado that failed? Not on your life.. It would of been mentioned in the paper and on TV.

So, since some think this is media bias, what kind of coverage did GM get when they stopped the sales of the Outlook and Acadia almost out of the gate?

I was only being sarcy with GM's first class V8s... we did have the oil consumption and piston slap issues to contend with... my engine was rebuilt for piston slap ... and it's never been stronger!!!

Anyway, the point is all manufacturers have issues. If you believe that Japanese cars are without fault then you're living in Fairyland. Buy what you want, what you love. There's a manufacturer's warranty in place to help you overcome your issues.

Just an FYI; the Toyota 4.7l is well-known for piston slap issues as well:

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/polls/63616-poll-have-piston-slap-replaced-engine/
http://townhall.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef21b90/356

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-05-29-tundra_N.htm?csp=34

Toyota said Tuesday that it has found in a handful of its much-hyped new Tundra pickups a defect that caused the engines to fail.

Toyota (TM) has reports of camshafts breaking in the 5.7-liter V-8 engines of about 20 Tundras so far. The flaw was due to a manufacturing defect by a subcontractor. All of the engines are being replaced.


Toyota spokesman Bill Kwong said he doesn't know how many engines were made and installed before the flaw was detected. But he said the problem was found early. It was fixed at the subcontractor's factory in February, the same month Tundra was launched amid a $100 million ad blitz.

The company has not issued a recall. "We're still investigating it. We don't believe it was that many," Kwong said.

A cursory check of investigations underway by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration didn't include one for Tundra engines, which it typically would begin if the defect involved safety.

The engine problems were first reported by Automotive News.

The issue amounts to a rare embarrassment for Toyota. While problems aren't unusual in new models, Tundra is one of the automaker's most important launches in years as it attempts to break Detroit's lock on the full-size pickup market.

"I'm sure there are people agonizing over this in Toyota," said Jeffrey Liker, a University of Michigan professor and author of Toyota Talent. "Toyota prides itself on zero defects."

Toyota said earlier this month that its pre-launch forecasts are on track for Tundra. It hopes to sell as many as 200,000 this year, up from about 125,000 of the old model last year.

Although optional, the 381-horsepower 5.7-liter V-8 has quickly stepped out as the most popular engine for the Tundra, which is depicted in ads as having brawny towing capabilities. About 65% of buyers opt for it.

Kwong would not disclose the name of the subcontractor. The engines are assembled in Alabama and installed in the pickups at Toyota's plant in San Antonio.

There are four camshafts in each engine. Two control the operation of the intake valves and the other two control the exhaust valves. The 32 valves move air and fuel in and out of the engine's combustion chambers.

The problem occurred in the later stages of the manufacture of the camshafts that control only the intake valves.

If a camshaft breaks, the engine will barely work or not at all. Rather than try to fix the affected engines, Kwong said, Toyota is giving owners new ones that are shipped overnight to dealers.

Liker said he doesn't think the problem will stop Tundra's momentum, but it will draw attention. "When you're the new kid on the block, you're going to be scrutinized more," he said.

Contributing: Laura Petrecca

Muhuhahahaha....

Yikes. They've been advertising the hell out of the new Tundra, and seem to be making a real run at the big three in the fullsize market... this ain't gonna be good for 'em.

I Still Want One And I Still Want A Tundra 5.7 In My 92 4runner

Rather than try to fix the affected engines, Kwong said, Toyota is giving owners new ones that are shipped overnight to dealers.


And there's the difference between Toyota and the domestics.

Good for Toyota. They found the issue and are correcting.

GM would have said. “Breaking of camshafts is normal and does not affect engine performance.”
:)

Good for Toyota. They found the issue and are correcting.

GM would have said. “Breaking of camshafts is normal and does not affect engine performance.”
:)

lmao true.

I would imagine that it's probably cheaper for toyota just to replace the engines anyway. I don't know if anyone remembers the 350 R motors had a problem with "cold knock" but GM replaced a ton of those even though it didn't hurt anything. I worked at a GM dealership and we freaking "goodwilled" engines all of the time. Goodwill means it out of warranty but GM covered it anyway..... It made me mad because even though it was out of warranty, I had to do it for warranty time.

You guys must go to some $hitty dealerships.

Are their camshafts bigger than the competition's by any chance?

And there's the difference between Toyota and the domestics.Or there's the difference when a company has bazillions of dollars to spend and has invested billions in this product, a poor launch of which would be a disaster.

IIRC, Ford stepped up alright when the Ford GT had the embarrassing suspension problem.

:shrug:

....

I agree with this. The Domestics will stand behind problems that lead to catastrophic failures. I have even heard of many Gen III engines being replaced by dealerships for the infamous piston slap issues without any proof of premature wear.

My problem with GM in particular is that they don't necessarily stand behind other parts that are known issues. Like power window motors on 4th Gen F-bodies. Or rotors that warp every 10,000 miles or so. Or PASSKEY II ignition switches that fail and disable the car (I just had to replace mine last week to the tune of several hundred dollars....car only has 55,000 miles on it....and the mechanic said they're a known trouble spot which I figured since my brother also had to have his switch replaced last summer). I'm not going to waste my time contacting GM on this particular issue because I know what the response will be. :(

Toyota is not completely without need for scrutiny either. I seem to recall a rather lame, half-assed fix for a child restraint recall on their trucks not too long ago.

I will say I don't exactly give Toyota a standing ovation for overnighting replacement engines to the owners.

It's a simple cost equation.

What's the cost of overnighting 20 new Tundra motors out including the cost of the motor? Maybe 100 grand, tops?

Is it worth 1/10th the price of a 30 second spot in the superbowl to make sure that Toyota gets as absolutely little bad press over this issue as possible?

Hell yes.

That's why they did it.

Or at least that's why I'm not exactly blown away by their 'acts of kindness'.

Now if this was a friend of mine's truck he was the ONLY person I'd heard about with this issue and the media had heard nothing of it and they still did that - then yeah, I'd be impressed, then.

Are their camshafts bigger than the competition's by any chance?



Haven't you seen the commercials?!? *EVERYTHING* is bigger on the Tundra!!!!

Haven't you seen the commercials?!? *EVERYTHING* is bigger on the Tundra!!!!



including the panel gaps!... oh wait, that's so that it look smore rugged or something :rolleyes:

I agree with this. The Domestics will stand behind problems that lead to catastrophic failures. I have even heard of many Gen III engines being replaced by dealerships for the infamous piston slap issues without any proof of premature wear.

My problem with GM in particular is that they don't necessarily stand behind other parts that are known issues. Like power window motors on 4th Gen F-bodies. Or rotors that warp every 10,000 miles or so. Or PASSKEY II ignition switches that fail and disable the car (I just had to replace mine last week to the tune of several hundred dollars....car only has 55,000 miles on it....and the mechanic said they're a known trouble spot which I figured since my brother also had to have his switch replaced last summer). I'm not going to waste my time contacting GM on this particular issue because I know what the response will be. :(

Toyota is not completely without need for scrutiny either. I seem to recall a rather lame, half-assed fix for a child restraint recall on their trucks not too long ago.

Count me in on this sentiment as well.

I can run you off a laundry list of little things that would make domestic vehicles go from "ok" to "outstanding" in customer satisfaction if they would just do them. Now to be fair, many of these things have been or are being addressed in recent years and models, but some seem to be living on.

Now before I let the invaders off the hook scott-free, let me say that Toyota seems to be even worse that Honda when it comes to owning-up to a problem. Both coming from the same cultural backgrounds, I don't understand why Toyota has such a hard time sucking it up and admitting something is wrong when it obviously is.

Count me in on this sentiment as well.

I can run you off a laundry list of little things that would make domestic vehicles go from "ok" to "outstanding" in customer satisfaction if they would just do them. Now to be fair, many of these things have been or are being addressed in recent years and models, but some seem to be living on.

Now before I let the invaders off the hook scott-free, let me say that Toyota seems to be even worse that Honda when it comes to owning-up to a problem. Both coming from the same cultural backgrounds, I don't understand why Toyota has such a hard time sucking it up and admitting something is wrong when it obviously is.
Be assured that GM is taking the nessesary actions to make situations such as you speak a thing of the past, both by producing far better products, and also by empowering dealers to rectify problems to keep customers satisfied (within reason).