little note about Camaro when talking about GM's EV1 electric vehicle

If I remember correctly on the article..it said EV1 loyal owners as like CAMARO owners were abandonded by GM..WTF?? a low produced electric vehicle compared to a CAMARO??? yo userious..and then they go onto pretty much say there is no market for these cars..meaning the EV1 and the Camaro???

UMMM GM..WAKE UP NOW!!!!! I myself love my Camaro and love playing around with it..BUT AS OF NOW there is no "replacement" when I want to get another one..YOU AND YOUR MARKETING STRADEGY IS WAY OFF..look at the competitors cars comming out that are performance oriented???.. 350Z, RX8, Supra< and MUSTANG??? my god you got blinders on??
someones got to change the beancounters hands cus they are letting too much slip by..this is from what a loyal GM customer..but hey..the Mustang never looked better..and I know Im not the only one saying that...hate to say it.....your loosing ground and patience with your performance fans...

Well...the GTO is close to where the Camaro left off...

I'm not sure what article to which you are referring, but it sounds like to me that they are comparing what happened to Camaro owners and EV1 owners, not the cars. Sometimes you read stuff about the Camaro and GM and you just automatically get pissed off, or I know I do anyway.

The Camaro and GTO just aren't the same though.

we need a Camaro not a GTO,Monaro with a changed name:mad:

Originally posted by luis nunez
we need a Camaro not a GTO,Monaro with a changed name:mad:

Well what's wrong with a Monaro???

You guys need to relax and give GM time. Yes, it is riduculous that GM has altogether abandoned the affordable performance market. But as others have stated, GM is now moving in the right direction with renewed emphasis on the car side of things, including performance. The fruits of these changes are not going to appear overnight. That we even have a GTO on the way is an indication that things are on the upswing. Have patience....

But if you want to buy a Mustang, who's stopping ya?

Why buy a M*****g anyway?? Just keep your F-Body or get another.

Just as I used to preach months (years?) back on this board, the new performance car market is quasi-sports car. Keep it somewhere in between 3rd gen and 350Z and it'll be a huge hit, should it come back.

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Well...the GTO is close to where the Camaro left off...

2002 Z28 = $25,000
2004 GTO = $35,000

quote by jrp4uc: Well what's wrong with a Monaro???

You guys need to relax and give GM time. Yes, it is riduculous that GM has altogether abandoned the affordable performance market. But as others have stated, GM is now moving in the right direction with renewed emphasis on the car side of things, including performance. The fruits of these changes are not going to appear overnight. That we even have a GTO on the way is an indication that things are on the upswing. Have patience....

But if you want to buy a Mustang, who's stopping ya?

Amen to that! This business is not akin to putting out a new sandwich at McDonalds. It takes some time to create and validate a design and business case, line up and tool up manufacturing and suppliers. But GM knows they can win back market share with renewed performance emphasis... just a matter of time and having the right products and producing them right.

WERM - I don't see anywhere where someone claimed the Z28 and GTO are somehow equivalent. Take a look at the GTO... you're getting a lot more car for that price difference (BTW not as large a difference as you quoted, since the GTO's will come loaded and a loaded Camaro can easily exceed $30k sticker). With the GTO, you're getting comfy rear legroom, IRS, 350-360 hp (rumored), side airbags, rear bucket seats, and so on. Performance wise, the GTO no doubt will pick up where the Z28 left off, giving GM performance fans a brand new tool for smacking down Mustangs! :D

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
quote by jrp4uc:

WERM - I don't see anywhere where someone claimed the Z28 and GTO are somehow equivalent. Take a look at the GTO... you're getting a lot more car for that price difference (BTW not as large a difference as you quoted, since the GTO's will come loaded and a loaded Camaro can easily exceed $30k sticker). With the GTO, you're getting comfy rear legroom, IRS, 350-360 hp (rumored), side airbags, rear bucket seats, and so on. Performance wise, the GTO no doubt will pick up where the Z28 left off, giving GM performance fans a brand new tool for smacking down Mustangs! :D

IMHO, the fact that a loaded camaro cost over 30K has a lot to do with why they don't make Camaros anymore. Sure, GTO is a lot of car for the money (Like the Z06). It will however, be produced in limited numbers and at a price that many can't afford. You COULD buy a $25,000 Z28. The same cannot be said about GTO. It doesn't make sense to say "it picked up where camaro left off" any more for GTO than it would for Corvette.

"IMHO, the fact that a loaded camaro cost over 30K has a lot to do with why they don't make Camaros anymore. Sure, GTO is a lot of car for the money (Like the Z06). It will however, be produced in limited numbers and at a price that many can't afford. You COULD buy a $25,000 Z28. The same cannot be said about GTO. It doesn't make sense to say "it picked up where camaro left off" any more for GTO than it would for Corvette."

It appears you're still missing the point... it's not a claim that the new GTO is some kind of "Z28 clone" - only that it will fulfill many of the same purposes the Z28 did. Both are value-oriented performance coupes. Both have a simple, reliable, fuel-sipping, tire-ripping pushrod V8. Both have a long and proud racing heritage on tracks and the street. Are they the exact same price? Obviously not... and they're not the same design either.

As for the Camaro pricing and its demise... LS1 Camaros are/were a great deal anywhere from $25k to $30k or more. But price alone is not such a major driver of demand for the cars. Their limitations in interior packaging. along with other "key attributes like buyer demographics and resulting insurance rates, were/are a factor.

Here's my perspective on a $25K Z/28 compared to a $35K GTO.

I'm sure that I will ruffle some feathers here...but hey, it's my opinion.

The reason the 4th gen Z/28 could be had for $25K was, that it really wasn't a real Z/28 at all. What it was, was a modern rendition of an "80s Mustang LX 5.0.

Short of the LS1, it's hard to point to even one component that could be described as neat or cool. No "special" suspension, no "special" wheels, no "special" brakes......no "special" anything.

Yes....just like the 5.0 LX, the 4th gen Z/28 was just a motor in a box. It would have made a great Nova SS....but not quite a Z/28.

What a waste.

(NOMEX SUIT ON!):death:

I beg to differ on the "time" it takes to make a new camaro..or any other performance car for GM..Lutz proved that with the Solstice...it can and should be done..look at D/C for there almost ready prototype production cars..that seam to be on the lots 2 years from now..
what were talking about here is about 5 years of wait..
5 years of imports picking away at what a real performance car is.

5 years of Mustang eating away at the "loyal" performance crowd

5 years of other manufactures comming out with PERFORMANCE cars!

5 years of looking other places cus GM says there is "NO VIABLE MARKET FOR THESE CARS"


5 years and you can kiss any market share GOODBYE..and thats the honest truth..any way you slice it cus GM has no economy sporty car..like a Mustang..


and the Z28 to GTO...lets make a comparison to that from Ford..
The new Thunderbird..more exclusive higher price, diffrent bying public..and all that gets you is a car that pretty much has the same performance level..ohh but its a convertible with retro stylin..
same with the GTO..you try and make a Z28 replacement..as a GTO..not going to cut it..better in ways that we didnt mind when the car was being made..

Originally posted by Z284ever
Here's my perspective on a $25K Z/28 compared to a $35K GTO.

Short of the LS1, it's hard to point to even one component that could be described as neat or cool. No "special" suspension, no "special" wheels, no "special" brakes......no "special" anything.



It had to be decontented so that GM/SLP could justify a $3500+ package that included many things the Z28 should have had anyway. Did it cost GM anymore to make the wheels better looking? The taller spoiler? the different suspension settings? hardly. The Ram-Air setup was the only thing that added real value, and that did not approach $3500 by a long shot. The Z28's of the 70's and 80's had unique wheels and styling. In the 90's they tried to push the cars upmarket, but it backfired. Not very many folks wanted a 30K+ camaro (but the dealers mostly stocked them, scaring away others who didn't know a 25K Z28 existed), and the regular Z28 was made so plain and homely that nobody wanted them either. It's not hard to see where GM went wrong with these cars.

Mustang, with similarly compromised ergonomics/layout, etc., buyer demographics and a less powerful engine sold significantly higher. SVT mustang production was limited enough to not dilute the GT models, prevent dealers from flooding lots with them and hence the average Mustang sold for far less than the average Camaro - even though both COULD be purchased for the same price. That and Ford actually wanted to sell Mustangs.

I agree strongly with what was just said by Z284ever and WERM.

What I don't agree with is this:

Originally posted by Caps94ZODG
you try and make a Z28 replacement..as a GTO..not going to cut it..better in ways that we didnt mind when the car was being made..

I'm betting that as soon as you step into an 04 GTO, if you can find one, it'll put any 4th gen to shame and you'll realize it's not a replacement, but a great leap ahead. Your "not gonna cut it" statement should be reserved for that special time in the model year when last year's model is on sale with rebates, discounts, etc., and the new model is the one getting all the respect. I distinctly remember this phenomenon with 4th gens on dealer lots! One small problem though: The 04 GTO's will sell out so fast, there will never BE that overlap. I'd say that cuts it. We'll see.

GT

Originally posted by kizz
I'm betting that as soon as you step into an 04 GTO, if you can find one, it'll put any 4th gen to shame and you'll realize it's not a replacement, but a great leap ahead.

I agree. The GTO should not be considered a replacement for the F-body because it is not. If we hadn't been so performance starved over last 10+ years, perhaps everyone would stop thinking every new car that comes along is designed as a Camaro replacement. The GTO is not. The Solstice is not. These are fixes for other holes in their lineup. We should have all of these cars and the Camaro/Firebird!

In particular, the GTO is being brought in to be the trophy piece in the Pontiac lineup. That the Trans Am held this position prior is only coincidence, as it was never intended to be such. It was supposed to be the Pontiac, high-volume affordable performance alternative. WERM hit the nail on the head when describing the dealer's practices of ordering high-option and overly expensive cars for their lots. When is the last time you saw a $23k Z28 on a lot, or even a Formula at all?! As Joe Public, a Camaro or Firebird is not worth $30k, yet this is all that seems to be on the lots. I agree. I believe these were cars that grew a lot less 'bang-for-the-buck' as the price moved up; their glaring defeciences become more of an issue. Having a $22-24k Mustang GT stocked and for sale across the street also didn't help.

So don't be down on the GTO because it's going to sticker for more than a base Z28. That we lost our Mustang and are getting an M3 in a span of 2 years should not lead to the assumption the cars are meant to be one and the same. We should be enthused that our M3 costs $20k less than the BMW version!

When is the last time you saw a $23k Z28 on a lot, or even a Formula at all?!

You should visit Detroit more often. I saw several stripper Z28's last summer when I was looking for my TA, along with at least two Formulas on the lots (both black, my least favorite color). Even now I know of a red 2002 Trans Am whose only option is chrome wheels, at my dealer (Bob Sellers Pontiac, Farmington Hills). So I disagree with this moaning lament about how dealers never order up "the good stuff".

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
You should visit Detroit more often. I saw several stripper Z28's last summer when I was looking for my TA, along with at least two Formulas on the lots (both black, my least favorite color). Even now I know of a red 2002 Trans Am whose only option is chrome wheels, at my dealer (Bob Sellers Pontiac, Farmington Hills). So I disagree with this moaning lament about how dealers never order up "the good stuff".

Well, there aren't any in the Cincinnati area and haven't been over last couple years. I've seen more WS6 than regular TAs on lots aswell, probably 2:1 over that time span. If I have to travel to a city 5 hours away and in a different state to find these cars, I believe my point stands.

Btw, I will be in Detroit for a third time in January. I'll check things out then. ;)

If I have to travel to a city 5 hours away and in a different state to find these cars, I believe my point stands.

Btw, I will be in Detroit for a third time in January. I'll check things out then.

Actually you don't need to travel... just ask your dealer to do a trade of one new car on their lot for another. We got my wife's SUV from a GM dealer in Ohio, but bought it in MI after the dealer ran a locator check for the whole zone. Also, you can find a lot of current stock by using www.gmbuypower.com first.

Are you going to NAIAS in Detroit? Maybe I'll see you there.

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
you going to NAIAS in Detroit? Maybe I'll see you there.

Yeah, this will be my second trip for the auto show. There's just going to too many exciting cars/concepts from GM to not make the trip. They never bring the good stuff when the tour makes its way down here. :(

I bet there are a lot of guys thinking about going on here. Maybe we should all organize a meeting or something. I'd be curious to see how many are down on the GTO when they see it in person!